Why did Melbourne keep its trams?
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- čas přidán 22. 07. 2024
- Melbourne, Australia, has the largest tram network in the world, but this is surprising given every other tram system in Australia (except the Glenelg Tram) was abandoned in the 1960s. So how did it survive?
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That Sydney, Adelaide are now re-introducing trams demonstrates that it was a very forward thinking idea.
Thank you Sir Robert Risson
@@Gunzel15 Brisbane never will, as they want more cars
And The Gold Coast
Great video. It was a brilliant decision. Over here in NZ we removed all trams from our cities about the same time as AU. We also drastically cut our rail network in the 80s. Now in the 2020's we're in desperate need of rebuilding all the infrastructure we once had. Melbourne saved billions by keeping it's trams.
Making the trams free in the city and keeping the cars out is the most genius city planing ever, the air quality is much better and getting around is much quicker.
Here in Melbourne they concreted the tram tracks in so it would be expensive both financially and politically to get rid of them.
Which is good XD
Concreting the tram tracks reduced the track maintenance too… (tracks buried in concrete can’t move out of gauge).
The power of a well connected passionate, civic-minded public servant. We could use a few more like him today. Does this bloke deserve a statue?
Yeah he is a great guy, would be cool actually if he got one
@@MetroManMelbourne Elizabeth St tram terminus is named in Honour of Sir Robert Risson, and there's a plaque at the terminus honouring him.
In more recent times the government replace the public servants before making cutbacks but this didn’t happen with Risson. Many senior public servants in the early ‘80s were new appointees only interested in cost cutting.
@carlosedwin1 The scratch ticket dispute might be interesting. The Labor government were hell bent on introducing the unpopular scratch tickets and the tram unions parked the trams in the streets for several months, I forgot how many. Union leader John Halfpenny said if one tram was ever moved, you may as well put it in a museum as it will never ever be driven by a union member ever again.
The government basically dug themselves in and settled down for a long fight.
@@darylcheshire1618 Yeah, I remember that fight. A Labor government in a stand-up fight to the end dispute with the Tramways, the Tramways Union, the Public Transport Users Association, the media. Have I forgotten anyone?
When you have such a diverse group of Melbournians against you and in particular the fight is over Melbourne's beloved trams then you are bound to loose!
It should be mentioned that former premier Sir Rupert Hamer was a big supporter of keeping the tram network and introducing new ones. Starting with the Z class in 1973.
As a Brissie girl nothing makes me happier than hearing the familiar 'ding ding' whenever I get the chance to go to Melbourne!
I wish Perth still had its tram network. There’s talk of replacing some high-frequency bus services with light rail, so that’s positive.
It's good Melbourne keeped there trams. I have visited Melbourne 3 years ago and I was absolutely amazed with there tram network.
Major General Risson also set the tram tracks in concrete, so that they could not be easily removed. Until a few years ago, you could still see small sections of track with the old redgum blocks that predated the concrete.
I use to be a Uber driver and got stuck many times in traffic in the cbd , but I think the trams are magical for the emergency professionals getting to their injured people much more quickly
Melbourne wouldn't be Melbourne without trams. They're iconic!
100%
It became an important point of difference between Melbourne and other cities in Australia and around the world.
In the ‘60s the media and the RACV were saying that trams were “old fashioned” and other cities were “more progressive” in getting rid of them. Nowadays the RACV support trams as reducing road congestion.
yeah it's really gone full circle, very interesting
@@MetroManMelbourne As a kid I remember the comment “that’s progress” to justify demolishing anything no matter how ill conceived the concept was. In the early ‘70s this was slowly turning aroud as various Victorian era buildings were retained. I did remember some of them looked rather tatty and well used but I also realized that 1960s buildings weren’t built to last and didn’t age very well.
An example, the new Portland Railway Station was built at the North Portland site around 1970 when the foreshore station was demolished. The new station looked terrible with it’s aluminium construction and did not age well. Indeed I don’t know if it still exists in 2021.
Part of the reason so many tram systems got abandoned was that they had to share their lanes with cars, removing their speed advantage.
Dedicated lanes are the way to go! Here in Toronto, there's a tram line that runs near my home, which was rebuilt into a dedicated line. There was great controversy at the time--for various reasons the rebuilding took a lot more time and money than expected--but now that it's finished we're getting the advantages of it!
unfortunately dedicated lanes are not practical everywhere and we shouldn't prevent trams from running on-street for this reason. However where possible they should run in dedicated lanes, i agree
If a city already has bus lanes perhaps trams could be run in them
G'day mate I'm from Australia, and yes I love those trams, I'm from new South Wales, and I wanted to go on Melbournes trams, if COVID 19 stops!
I used to live in a inner Melbourne suburb that had trams and when I wanted to travel into the City I used to just hop on a tram and go in, didn't have to worry about finding a parking spot in there, just left the car at home. Now I live in an outer suburb that hasn't got trams anywhere nearby, and I haven't been into the City for such a long time.
yeah trams are really great for things like that
i mean at a certain point trams are very slow. i live in brunswick west, takes an hour to get into the city on the tram, takes 20-25mins in a car.
if they put trams all the way in outter suburbs, it would take you 2hrs to reach the city. They should use the trams out there to ferry people across suburbs and to train stations etc
Thank goodness Melbourne kept its trams.
Ever since I was a kid I loved the trams in Melbourne, mostly because I've always hated exhaust fumes, especially diesel trucks & buses!
I always wondered why other cities didn't have trams & it still doesn't make sense to me... I can't understand why they'd choose to add more diesel fumes everywhere...
I the USA in particular it was due to lobbying from car and bus business interests that led to the demise of the Interurban systems as they were known. The car and the Post WWII building boom, created new suburbs without the Interurban tramcars.
@@markfryer9880 There was a little more to it than just lobbying in the USA - en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_Motors_streetcar_conspiracy
Time to expand our network now! And for trains too!
Because of the extensive tram system, many Melbourne residents do not need to own a car, and that's a big savings. Melbourne is also upgrading its metro train service. Now, what Australia needs to work on is high-speed intercity rail to cut down on short-hop plane travel!
Two major points: First, the Olympic Games had absolutely NOTHING to do with Melbourne retaining trams. Second, you overlook the MAJOR reason they were kept. In 1955 the Bolte conservative government got into power. Bolte wanted to get rid of trams but he didn't have control of the upper house. He closed the Geelong trams (1956), the VR Sandringham (1956) and St Kilda - Brighton (1959) lines, the Point Ormond line (1960) and the local Footscray lines (1962). He tried to stop the Bourke St lines from opening (1955-56) but the work was too far advanced. He cancelled the order for the last 30 new W7 class trams (1956). He starved the MMTB of funds except for new buses. In 1962, following the Footscray closure, the agenda was to close the Ballarat and Bendigo trams, then the rest of the Melbourne system. The MMTB even had plans drawn up for how the system was to be shut down (more or less on a depot area basis, first Malvern and Glenhuntly would close, then Kew, Hawthorn and Camberwell, then Essendon and Brunswick, then South Melbourne and finally Preston). What stopped him was not having control of the upper house - the legislation to close Ballarat and Bendigo was blocked by the upper house in 1962 and again in 1968. When Bolte finally got control of the upper house the Ballarat and Bendigo tramways were closed (1971 and 1972) and Melbourne was to be next. But by then the trams had proven their worth and had become such an icon of Melbourne that to close them would have been political suicide. Bolte retired in 1972 and Hamer became Premier, and in 1973 a cabinet decision to close the trams was defeated by ONE vote. Then we started getting new trams and line extensions again after years of inactivity. Risson played his part, and the other reasons you mentioned were all factors (except the Olympics), but the major reason Melbourne kept its trams was more good luck than good management. It was a close call.
I live in Christchurch New Zealand and have traveled to Melbourne lots of times. My opinion is it was a good idea keeping the trams.
I am also looking forward to take trams in Korea soon. Some cities already has started the building the rail roads.
Awesome Video, Goes into lots of detail, and was very nice to watch
Melbourne is trams, and trams are Melbourne.
Good overview. I’d like to add a few nuances. It should be stressed that buses are the main competitor to trams, not so much the car. Buses in many ways are more flexible and require less infrastructure than trams. The internal combustion engine received great advancements throughout WWII, and that technology trickled down into busses and the like by the 1950s. At the same time, the tram network was badly run down, as were many in the world. It was the olympics that you mentioned that triggered investment into our tram network, as it was seen that buses would not be up to the task. By the 1970s the network was again run down and in need of investment. This time buses were a lot better, but it was untimely decided that it would be cheaper to repair the tram system than replace it with buses. This was when the Z class trams were ordered (the first class of “modern” trams) which set the stage for all Melbourne trams since.
good video!!, always wondered why that was, greetings from Vienna!
Thanks for watching! Vienna has a cool tram system too!
Also the first electric tram line in Melbourne that was opened in 1906 ran between Box Hill and Doncaster however it was shut down a couple of decades later due to dwindling passenger numbers.
I actually talked about it in another video - "why can't I ride a train to doncaster". You might be interested in that as your dates are incorrect.
@@MetroManMelbourne
Well all that I remember is that it was Melbourne’s first electric tramway but how I know the dates is pretty vague so it was opened roughly around the 1890s or 1900s! :)
@@Techno-Universal Yeah It was opened in 1889 and closed in 1896, as population was sparse and it was mostly a tourist oriented line (doncaster was a tourist destination then). Would be interesting to someday extend route 109 there, but probably useless if SRL parallels it.
@@MetroManMelbourne
Yeah it’s just that gap between Box Hill and Doncaster will be closed with the outer circle rail loop project sometime within the next thirty years so it’s quite unlikely such a tram line would be built from the 109 route! :)
What impressed me about Robert Risson was around 1965 a tram driver died replacing a tram pole on the roof and the unions were rumblimg about industrial action, Risson had a news conference where he stood on the roof of a tram and himself demonstrated the correct way to replace a tram pole.
I remember a photo of him on the roof of a tram wearing a suit and hat.
How many management types would do this?
Sweet F,,,, All! In other words Zero.
I live in Melbourne and love and travel on our trams. I hope the new G class trams get to run in the west, especially with a projected tram hub being readied in Maidstone. 👍🤗
Very good video!!
5:20 Meanwhile Singapore has slightly more people than Melbourne but it's bus ridership is much higher (4.5m daily = 1.46b annually), even after accounting for the fact that it doesn't have trams to take up some of the public transport ridership
Melbourne buses are way underutilised, we got a bus plan yesterday which I will talk about in future
Cause we love our trams
Only other cities I've ridden a tram in were Toronto and Boston so that was a nice reminder of home
Really good video🙂
I just feel that Melbourne is the only city in Australia that wont be able to survive without trams
Yep, would hate to see buses trying to help clear an MCG crowd
@@paulorocky Ask anyone old enough what kind of a mess it was trying to get crowds to and from AFL Park Waverley. What a mess! It wasn't even served by a train line!
You make such great videos! perfect length and all the information needed. Would we see a video about the mildura line at any point? (sorry if it already exists and I haven’t seen it)
Yeah, I will be talking about the Mildura line in a future "The future of V/Line" video. Expect that soon! Thank you for the kind words!
@@MetroManMelbourne Cool! Keep up the great work : )
the Vinelander.
@@timothydrew993 indeed....Or the Sunraysia...or the Mildura Sunlight if you're really old like me!
Excellent.
It’s also not just a question of wide streets but the grid topography of the street network and the in particular the CBD.
It’s interesting that cars were banished entirely from Swanston St which was previously the main north-south crossing through the city. I’ve never heard anyone complain about this. I wonder if there are many (any?) similar examples around the world.
King Street in toronto comes to mind, I'm sure there's others
Wondering if bus operators might complain as they'd have to stop further away or detour more, which might then make buses less attractive
Getting rid of cars through Swanston street was very controversial at the time and I remember people complaining about it. It didn't stop the authorities though.
Nice informative video, enjoyed it very much!
Very good
Greetings from a fellow Melbournian. Ever been to the Melbourne tram museum in Hawthorn?
Yes I have, interesting place
Good video.. but the music level competes with voice level .
Nice video
Bravo!
i like how the government approved the idea to remove the rail corridor in Newcastle to replace it with a stupidly small light rail that is so tiny in comparison to basically any city in Australia, yeah sure it was cool to bring the trams back here but in my opinion its just a waste of money and because its such a small route people prefer to still use the car over the tram from the interchange, id love to see some old tram route's make it back here but i dont see that happening ever unless they do some re-constructing because i dont think its long enough yet
Removing the newcastle train line has to be one of the silliest projects this century (so far). Newcastle Light Rail has potential but really it should have just been built alongside and without removing the train.
Well if you look at it Melbourne is much bigger city compared to Adelaide being a smaller city and Melbourne requires the tram network to serve the outer suburbs.
Risson was a good soldier. Attacked where he could. Made necessary tactical retreats like with the Geelong tram network which he had to sacrifice and then used psychological warfare as seen with citizen tram. Meant he could arm twist Sir Henry Bolte, a man who went through his political life with near impunity into agreeing that the Melbourne tram network would endure.
The Footscray local tramlines in Melbourne closed in 1962 unfortunately
Melbourne without its trams would be a very diminished city
Yesssssssss!!
Wait this is the same CZcamsr I didn’t know I thought you where different people great video tho
The bad thing about the tram system is outside the city there are no real platforms so you have to cross at least 1 lane to board the tram
yeah they really need to get on with upgrading tram stops
cars are not allowed to pass a stationary tram, the main reason for the platform is to make trams wheelchair accessable. There was an obligation and a deadline for compliance set by the federal government a few years ago.
This is actually very dangerous, in St. Petersburg multiple people died in accidents because of dangerous stops like that.
@@warmike
I would like to see those figures for Melbourne. I would think it would be very low.
Most drivers here obey the road laws and never pass a stationary tram, unless they are directed by a tramways employee, tram doors are closed and pass at slow, safe speed.
Do you need the loud music?
probably a bit too loud yeah. Wasn't too good with editing at this time
I also echo the feedback that the background music makes it very difficult to hear and concentrate on your commentary. Trust that your content will be interesting in itself, without the need for the music.
I'm finding the background music in your video very distracting.
A number of people have commented the same thing and I have rectified it in future videos. Unfortunately I can't edit the volume of the music in this video, as it is uploaded. Thanks for watching.
It’s a brilliant video showing good points of views. In the video, motorizations are reasons why teams are closed. But traffic congestions are created by cars and buses. Here in Kyoto, Japan, I really think trams should be reintroduced because of demands of high patronages of buses and driver shortages. However old and conservative useless city council definitely disagrees. Then I hate Kyoto.
It's great that we still have our trams but what's not so great is the lack of diversity between classes here and there?! Oh sure we have standard comforts like low flooring, air con and the such but melbourne used to have a ton load of different classes of trams here just like our trains etc. And that wasn't even that long ago via 40 years ago, we had trams that were coloured both green & orange (miss orange!) and even classes that had trolley poles (pantographs on remaining W - classes looks cheap but is needed for our society now). I really miss the W2's with the pull down fabric doors or the iconic hum of my beloved Z1 classes but WHS as well....It's that we have our trams right?! But I'm still going to admit that today's class of trams are underwhelming at best...I even miss the yellow track cleaning scrubber cars as well, so dull now sorry.......
Simple answer
We had to be *D I F F E R N T*
Egg-c-lent vid.
comment
Good info, but the unnecessary (and shit) music made it difficult to hear the spoken word.
I've received this comment many times, I don't use music any more.
There was a tram strike sometime back in the 1980’s and I recall the news saying they were worried that there was going to be bedlam and traffic jams with all the extra cars on the road. Turned out, traffic ran smoother and quicker without the trams because trams consistently have to stop/start at tram stops which are too numerous, some of which are far too close to each other. Passengers boarding and alighting adds to the delay especially when they are elderly and/or disabled and there’s always at least one passenger at every stop during the peak. Then a tram’s acceleration and braking is slower than a car which adds additional time to tram movements thus slowing traffic even more. Sydney Rd, Toorak Rd, Brunswick St and Victoria St are a few examples of roads that are far too narrow to accommodate trams and can take up to an hour to drive a few short kilometres when there is the presence of trams. The ad from 3:22 was very biased in favour or trams. I personally hate them and could go on justifying why but this comment would become a thesis.
That was the whole point of the ad to keep trams, didn’t you watch the video? That was the whole point of the tram ad
Regarding the tram strike, I wouldn't be surprised if many of the people who did use the trams used alternative (non-car) modes of transport such as walking or a bus, keep in mind that the strike was over January, so it would've also been the school holidays (a bit less traffic), the population in the 80's was a lot smaller and the situation could be different if it were to happen today. I agree with the somewhat excessive amount of stops that could (and should) be rationalised. Much of the slow speed of trams is due to poorly considered punctuality requirements which mean yarra trams get fined if a tram is more than four minutes early or late (impossible in mixed traffic and especially during peak hour), so they slow to a crawl to try and maintain schedule. With regards to Sydney Rd, etc. this is a video including toorak road in peak hour and there's nothing close to gridlock, so not really an issue with the width of the streets czcams.com/video/9QIXyzf9Vgo/video.html (this video also talks about the yarra trams punctuality requuirements, etc.), though in terms of the design of the streets, cars weren't commonplace when the trams were introduced, if the network was being built today it may not run along those streets or may run on the sides as happens in some places in america, only holding up one lane and allowing traffic to overtake (though the streets were really designed for nothing more than foot traffic and a few horses and carts), but unfortunately we kept our trams and left much of the network to stagnate and now we have to play catchup with the rest of the world regarding proper priority, traffic separation, accessibility, etc which is another big problem.
I want them gone... why? because I want to see anarchy that ensues, in fact get rid of all rail and all buses... make Melbourne into the worst city in Australia for public transport it would be a shining example of what happens when you don't have any public transport alternative for commuting.
Because Melbourne needed a tourist attraction otherwise no one would come here
Poor narration earned this a thumbs-down from me. Narration Audio near drowned out - *BADLY MIXED!*
Ridicules things. Get them off the roads, put them under ground like every other developed country. Mobile traffic hazards, reduce everyone to the speed of a tram! And are very dangerous for pedestrians.
Perhaps get out of your car and on to the tram...and save a lot of money and help the environment.
And ladies and gentleman, I present you the definition of an idiot.
@@aguywhodreams Obviously not from Melbourne.
@@renadog1 Well your quite right about that. But, the vast, vast majority of people in Melbourne that I know of support the trams. It would be ridiculously expensive and unnecessary to get rid of them. The only thing that needs improving is right of way. Besides that, it is the greatest tram network in the world. Trams make sense. Buses will just ruin cities. Rubber on asphalt isn't efficient at all while steel on steel is insanely efficient. Do your research before commenting about things like trams.
Every new tram line is built on its own reservation - away from the traffic carriageways. Started with the Burwood, and then Vermont South extensions.
My father, who worked in electric traction, said that the worst feature of electric traction was its long life. Many tram systems were abanonded because the vehicles were old and unsightly, although still electrically reliable. Your video reinforces that idea. Melbourne kept its fleet up to date.