BUTCHERED Jeep Timing Job?? (Part 1 - P0018 Correlation)
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- čas přidán 20. 07. 2023
- Owner drove his 2014 Jeep Wrangler V6 about 4 hours from NJ to get a guaranteed DIAGNOSIS on a persistent *P0018 Cam-Crank Correlation DTC*.
The Jeep is in FAIL-SAFE mode where all VVT functionality is disabled.
This P0018 appeared AFTER a local shop installed new rockers and timing chains.
Obviously they messed something up...but WHAT??
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Ivan - Auta a dopravní prostředky
Just to eliminate a really unlikely cause, you could check the wire colors on the cam sensor connector and see if the signal wires for the two cams might be switched on the bank with the problem. The cam signal phasing might be different between the two cams. There is no logical reason for anyone to touch them, but you're not dealing with a logical problem. Possibly the connector came apart when someone unplugged it and it was repaired wrong.
Ooh interesting theory!! I like it 😁
LOL, I was thinking the exact same thing. I may have missed it while trying to do too many things at once, but also thought 'maybe' that that side is off one tooth at the crank?
Another head scratcher for sure. Well, assuming the connectors are all correct I would guess that the reluctors or the magnets inside are out of wack which would be doubtful if they are original. So what does that leave if everything else is correct? The ecm? Interesting. 👍👍🇺🇸
@@brianw8963 I haven't watched the video a second time yet to see what new parts were changed, but I suspect the cams on the problem side are wrong, possibly the part numbers are for the other bank. Hopefully we'll find out tomorrow.
I'd look at those valve covers very closely. Is there supposed to be some plastic washer or rubber gromet there, and that's why the sensor is falling down too deep into it's mounting hole? I think you're onto something about the depth of the sensor. I would think that maybe it's a sheared pin behind the phasors, but the odds of them both doing it are very low IMO. Plus it would likely be running much worse. Should be interesting to see the outcome.
Hi from OZ, I always look forward to your challenging fault finding video's, this is from a grand cherokee manual, same engine, not sure how you would check this without replacing the camshafts, "CAUTION: The magnetic timing wheels must not come in contact with magnets (pickup tools, trays, etc.) or any other strong magnetic field. This will
destroy the timing wheels ability to correctly relay camshaft position to
the camshaft position sensor."
The backward facing alternator always makes me think if Chrysler actually forgot it was needed until they assembled a few hundred.
...or the OEM got a large run of alternators built backwards at a discount...🤔🤣
I noticed the same 😅
That’s very funny stuff lol
Pretty more funy😅
And the fact you have to remove the bracket to get the belt on is insane
This is a great case study - very challenging . Ivan your diagnostic process is amazing ! I’m racking my brain to get some other possible causes. Gonna watch a second time and track along with EXTRA concentration to all your coaching / remarks . This is better than Netflix !! 👊🏼
Compare the cam sensors to see how far down each one sits. The oddball might be made wrong or even for a different engine or year of vehicle.
My guess is the VVT solenoid is the culprit since It's the only piece that can change the cam timing.
A car you did had the same issue, piece of plastic in the VVT solenoid throwing the timing out of whack.
That dual sensor didn't look right and appears to have come in contact with the reluctor wheels. Good one Ivan!
Ivan, I'm scratching my head along with yours. Looking forward to Part 2. Thanks for Sharing! 😲🥴🙃🙂
Chrysler Pentajunk never ceases to amaze
WoW, what an interesting case study😍
I think it's a flashing issue, bcuz some manufacturer's will recommend this in their TSB's related to timing issue's, that if a timing code has prolonged in the ECU there might be a chance that after replacing all the part's you've to reflash it to get it cleared.
But, waiting for part 2😍
Thanks for sharing BRO Stay Safe😍
Wow, that is hard one is the timing is perfect! But still fussing about the signal crap! That went over my head lol. I'll wait for part 2 lol. Great video Ivan! Be glad it's not transverse mounted lol.
Oh, I thought i knew everything 15 years ago, Then i learned the scope. I realized i really didnt know crap, and i got much much better. The Scope Ivan has is the best of the best. Picoscopes are the standard by which all are judged and fall short. I have several oscilloscopes, I use them often. If you are a tech, learn it.
A interesting issue! And we are saying that the sensor is OEM so it can't actually be sitting to low (or too high) in its spot! Humm. Can't wait for part 2!
I’ve seen a wrangler have this exact issue before, p0018, rough running only when cold, then would run fine after warm up. verified mechanical timing, command vs actual etc. the issue was incorrect oil viscosity used by customer.
Mopar recommends 5w-20, customer had mobile 1, 10w30 and really thick Lucas oil stabilizer. Flushed the system, replaced with OE filter, used mopar branded 5w-20 part #68518202aa. Cleared all DTCs, wrangler has been back in for other services but the p0018 never returned.
could there possibly be an O ring seal on the valve cover where the dual cam sensor lands? If it was missing, that would drop the sensor deeper between the cams, changing the readings on both and maybe causing some contact between the sensor and reluctor wheels. just a guess. Love your channel Ivan. I'm from Big Flats, near where your parents live
I had a weird one once only affected one cam and mine was more erratic on the scope. Was a different motor not a Chrysler but mine was a cam bore allowing the cam to wiggle or should I say walk around. Was cheaper to put a whole motor in it. Ford fiesta it was. Looking forward to part 2.
Hello from Sweden Ivan, waiting for part 2, its like waiting on next episode of The tv serie Macahans in the 70ths 😊
Ivan, I'd check the cam sensor depth on the cover. Maybe it's possible the sensor is sitting too high/low relative to the other bank.
Could it be the valve cover? I don't know about those sensor having some kind of adjustment which be a convenient fix though. Even still, what was that gray stuff of the reluctance wheels.
Aftermarket valve cover gaskets causing sensor assy to sit higher in relation to the cam. Love the content!
I believe the sensor would be sitting low not high. If you think about the intake and exhaust cam rotation if the sensor was high the intake wave would be seen first and the exhaust seen later we have the opposite on are hands here. If you fallow
Looking at that cam sensor design and mounting location, my next step would be to look at the valve cover, valve cover gasket and all related mounting hardware, including the sensor hardware, and cross reference part numbers by VIN for the valve cover, gasket and cams if they were replaced, as Mopar just loves their mid-year model tweaks.
This could potentially be a situation where fastener torque on the valve cover makes a difference, too.
As always, my post comes with the "internet speculation" advisory. ;)
Im leaning towards something affecting the height of that dual cam sensor. Maybe the valve cover gasket. Also id try to verify the trigger wheel is lined up correctly. We had a gm recently brand new cam with a damaged tone wheel.
Love your work Ivan, I hope one of the cams is incorrect as a smaller reluctor would affect timing. A part number should be visible on them somewhere.
This going to be a good one thanks for sharing.
Looking forward to part 2!
Just like you said before start with the way more expensive OEM parts and wait eons to get them and go from there. I see the not factory oem spec chinese parts becoming a big issue today. Maybe you might have to shim the sensor to get it to sit right but if the cams aren't out of alignment and the chain hasn't been installed wrong and the engine can do basic timing, then the sensor is not reporting the correct values to the computer.
Beats the hell out of me. I have confidence you'll figure it out.
My bet is on shifted tone wheel on cams, mopar makes a tool to check for it. waiting for next part! Cheers.
Height of sensor position at reluctor wheel could be an issue too. If the sensors were replaced with aftermarket I could see them being 1-2 mm in height difference.
This is definitely an interesting one. Its amazing what that scope is able to show. Guess you can't really fault the other shop if all they had to work with was the normal timing marks on the cams. Looking forward to part 2 . Wondering what shimming the cam sensor would do? Just have to wait and see what you discover.
I think you might have touched on the issue. I was thinking all the way that it's a sensor/ reluctor problem.
Verify the chain marks, I had one from a reputable supplier and the mark for the crank was in the wrong location. Was on a 2009 dodge caliber, cheers Ivan
maybe theres a back and front to the chain, so if it was backwards, the timing marks would be opposite ?
Wow…got me thinkin. Cant wait for part two!!
The code in question is for a particular cam there is a cheat sheet “tsb” do too early manufacturing whoas , phasers, sensor,and even wiring . I’ve seen phasers on wrong cams and cams in wrong locations and that an only happen wit left/drivers side head if cams are swapped .recheck your mechanical then chase what diag sheet says . Yes the dept that wrote Manuel labeled it in the incorrect order. The issues are usaually one cam was a tooth off or the cam was layed on a magnetic tray an messed up encoder wheel have even seen them dented just a little or turned ! It’s a low bid design really
Great work in showing how to properly fishing with being less intrusive ,love these videos good job
I love the head-scratchers. My gut tells me the fix will be easy once discovered.
Being a well known issue of shifted reluctors I'm thinking thats what is happening here. Even if the shop put in cams, I doubt they actually used OE and two there has been times brand new ones have been off somewhat rare but does happen. Will be interesting to see the outcome.
I’d do in cylinder pressure check,both banks,to check the camb timing,the pcm is seeing data,if the cylinder checks doesn’t agree with the pcm data,have the mag pickups been moved,very interesting diagnostic,I’m fascinated by the power of the scope,and following the data.
Wow you really get the weird ones!
This is a good one. I don't think that the cams got swapped around because if that was the case, the problem would be on both banks. And it's not. The cam sensor might be an issue. Could the seal for the sensor be thicker or thinner, thus effecting the sensor depth? Unlikely, but possible. It's hard to say. I'm certainly looking forward to part 2.
These sensors bottom out on the head.
I just did valve cover gaskets on the same engine 2 days ago. There are no shims, there are no "O" rings inside where the sensor seats. The bolt goes down through the middle of the sensor into the cylinder head. This is perplexing.
IVAN, Before even start watching gave it a thump up because I know will learn/good info will be presented cheeeeeeers and thanks.
These cams tone rings are magnetic. If you so much as run a magnet by them it will demagnetize the tone ring. It's possible to run a magent by one or more and change the output signal.
For sure. But the signal was perfect, just shifted slightly 😉
@PineHollowAutoDiagnostics Yeah. As soon as i saw the waveforms I thought that cant be it. I can't think of any other way that you'd have those signals other than the tone rings being shifted. Everything is in time. I mean you already know what's wrong with it. But I'm watching thinking "how"? Unless the cams themselves got reversed. But the cams have markings on them too that indicate intake and exhaust.
@@edwinlomonaco6754 exactly. Visual inspection showed everything was just perfect! 😅
I've had similar issues with Ford Transits that have had engine swaps. Donor engine a few years older than the original vehicle. The CAM sensors pick up the peak part of the lobe, the pointy bit of the lobe if you will. On the waveform the first CAM signal transition starts slightly too early and the second transition is too late. Obviously there are just two transitions as its just picking up the peak of the lobe. Basically the dip in the signal is too wide. Raising the sensor pulls it away from the lobe thus narrowing the dip and makes the transitions occur later and earlier respectively. Putting a washer underneath the sensor to hold it off by about 1/3mm gets rid of the fault code. Sounds like a similar situation. Awaiting part 2 👍
I had also thought about a weak connection in the harness for that reluctor, like failing internal connection. The issue did remain driver's side, right? Was relieved the cams weren't swapped, though. 🤔🤔🤔
This much I would know to do if a cam sensor had to be replaced. If it has two of them, I'd be sure to match them up from the same maker (OEM) so if they decided to replace one with brand X, I'd recommend replacing both of them AND I would save the old, both for the owners parts box.
Try to clean the two magnetic rings, as they may be magnetically contaminated, & clean, & maybe....if it's ok to do...demagnetize the rear dual magnetic sensor, seems it has grey debris there.
I think you should scope a cylinder pressure transducer. That would tell you if the cam is really off, or just reading off. (It is minimally invasive.) ;)
Great suggestion! Compression is even and engine runs super smooth 😉
@@PineHollowAutoDiagnostics Which makes me suspect the sensor end.
Where did you get all your knowledge? I like how you walk us through your diagnostics Ivan.
Interesting.. The timing does look spot on and the camshafts show LE - LI , so they are positioned correctly and highly doubt both reluctor wheels slipped . Everything looks good. Something must be wrong with the vvt solenoids causing the phasers to get stuck in wrong postion once the engine starts. I have always used the camshaft holder tools working on these pentastars, never had to remove the front timing cover when replacing the camshafts, so not sure why they did all that nonsense.
Dr Cliff and Physician Hanger, my friend; nice one Tell the Jeep customer he's nearly had you doing the whole job again.
Properly
YOUR THE BEST!
@Ivan i would have a better kiccker for you
engine vibrations with no error codes
- spark present no issues
- fuell present no issues
- timing backed by -2 on all 4 cams (v8)
god knows why its wibrating but... i know the machine shop redoing heads took more material form one head vs the other and probably thats causing the vibrations (you can kind of see it on the scope but not really)
now they made the head 'trapezoid' shape along the side so the last cylinder has more compression than the first one on the bank. and ofc. the other head is a bit better shape. How they did it i have no clue... but it shows if you do comp ratio check using some fluid and syringe - That's a wild one man :)
Check if BANK 2 Cams are timed correct to crankshaft?
Everything else you checked:
-Cam sensors seems to work
-Cam timing in reference to each other seems ok
The value shown in degrees is the relation between crankshaft and cams correct?
Hmmm. Isn't the sensor mounted in the valve cover? So a difference in gasket thickness would throw it off?
This came up on my CZcams feed this morning. ironically, I just did a valve job on a 2012 minivan and it runs great now, but all the cams are showing about 10 degrees of discrepancy with the crank. The desired and actual positions are spot on... within a few degrees according to the data PID.
The engine appeared virgin, and I replaced the plastic timing components, but otherwise, I used the same chains and gears, etc. There's no excess chain stretch according to the tensioners.
Could the 33 teeth be divided into 360 degrees which gives 10.9 degrees? I guess that depends on how the data is extrapolated. I never removed the primary chain, but replaced the tensioner and guide, and I am pretty sure that it never skipped a tooth.
Maybe all the cam reluctors shifted, and the head milling and new guides put the data PID over the edge to set a code?
86,000 miles and needed a valve job. I am honestly about to call it quits with Fiat/Daimler stuff.
I was sure that the chinesium sensor would be the problem but after you swapped them over the problem did not go away.Could that chinesium sensor had be touching the reluctor wheels & leaving some small trace on them which is altering the signal ? Cheers mate be very interested in the final result.
My bet is on the cam sensor sitting too low causeing the intake wave to show up early and the exhaust to show up later. May be caused by valve cover hight possible causeing the sensor to be closer to the head then normal.
Maybe you're correct about the Cam Sensor. Where it sits on the engine, is it missing a small gromet? ( To raise it up a tad )
How loose are the phasers to the cams? With 'Butchered' in the title, I suspect a dumb mistake with the installation. Its interesting the cam error PID jumps around a lot on bank 1 but not at all on bank 2... Can''t wait for part 2!
Hum, I'd say it could be the height of the dual sensor or reluctor wheel that's taking in account that the cams are right.
I'm going way out on a limb here. I don't know these engines and what kind of bolts hold down the valve cover. But per haps a thinner valve cover gasket was used on that side.
Time for some STP oil treatment, and less idling ? This one has a oil pressure gauge? For the 2 stage oil pump debacle
Since you said if you would lift the sensor a little the degrees would change is it possible that they used a valve cover gasket that was the wrong thickness? That would definitely change where the sensor would read the reluctor wheels.
Does it use 2 separate CRANK sensors??? If not, I’d be leaning towards the new chain and guides as well as the phasers. Are they locked in place with the engine off??? Peace
WOW! That's a really hard one, Ivan! The timing being correct, the only thing left is the position (or angle) of the cam sensor relative to the reluctor wheels, assuming the reluctors are not shifted, which seems too far fetched. Can't wait for Part 2 - I think it will blow my mind :-)
Long live pushrods.
It's hard to know what could be the problem without knowing the parts that would have been replaced...
On the other hand, I just have 2 questions regarding:
1 - are the cam covers and cam sensors the same between bank 1 and bank 2 ?
2 - can the cam sensor be turned 180° ? I'm thinking of a signal inversion between the 2 camshaft, but it will be easy to check with the picoscope and a magnet to be sure the camshaft signals are arriving at the right place in the computer...
Could the pcm be reading it wrong?? Lol!! Got me!
Mis-degreed Bank 2 chain position at the crankshaft sprocket?
Nice Gravely hat!
Hi, I had a trouble like that where the signals didn't align and the cams and the phasers where all right so I made a tool with a socket and I weld a little notch on it, which help me move the wheel with the magnets and it's been all right since then. And I got rid of the trouble codes. Would you dare to try?
Hi Ivan, is there a sealing surface that might have changed hight from OE. Valve cover gasket, any sort of shim or seal that goes between the sensor and cover.
Hey Will! I was sure that was the smoking gun, but there are no shims or spacers for that cam sensor, it bottoms out directly on the head casting ;)
That's a great idea like coil packs and job done if it changes to the opposite side well maybe stuffed there is a lot of problems with shit parts from new
WEIRD issue for sure.
What about the timing chain tensioner guide feet or any of the other guides/feet???
At this point I'd have checked the cmp signals again this time with the vvti actuators unplugged :) then as someone else suggest, swap the exh & intake signal wires, if those two turn out to be fine, then you might actually have two shifted reloctor wheels 🫠
Cam has shifted clockwise or,counter clockwise on the cam gears/relucotor wheels somehow. Range Rover Evoques do this exact thing. Somehow the cams have managed to be off 1 tooth of rotation. Just my guess. Though I’m only 1/2 way through video at moment.
Well there is a very important note in the repair instructions about not letting the ends of the cams touch anything magnetic or it could cause this issue
Ivan, is it possible the reluctor wheel came into contact with a magnet and scrambled the resistance on the wheel? Interesting case.
Possible stretched chain? Some of those cheap Chinese chains have stretched on me in the past. Like, immediately after running a new rebuild up to temp
I don't keep cars long enough where I need timing unless the water pump goes out. But going to Alldata, watching some videos, and doing the timing belt or whatever needs replacement is the low bar for doing serious work on a high milage car. If you cannot do that you should not consider an older car that needs a lot of work, because it is old and has a lot of worn-out parts.
If one of the cam sensors was replaced with a non-OEM one then the sensors could have been designed with different sensitivities. If one sensor has a slightly different sensitivity to trigger or even a delay in the state change then that could cause what you see in the graphs. Might need two of the same sensors... But the magnets on the camshafts could be causing this as well... or the wrong camshafts were used...
Phasers not working correctly. Inspection of the oil control solenoid and valves. Have seen people install the rocker cover with the actuators installed at the front and bend the actuator pins. Once the actuator pins are bent they won't retract into the actuators. The causes the phaser to adjust the cam shaft position.
Are the cam sensors different/specific to the left and right bank? Could it be you have two bank one cam sensors, so even swapping, bank two cam sensor would still be rotated 180°?
We ar me assuming bank 1 and bank 2 have the same sensor. The position of those sensors will be critical. The height is also critical.
When somethings difficult to see, just take a picture with your phone and look at that. 😌
I'm working on 2015 Jeep v6 with code p0019..My scanner shows the exhaust cam -40 bank 2 the other cams @ -4.00 @ idle.. Haven't tore it apart but feel the ring on the end has moved. This is my first @ this make an model situation. This is expensive job in parts to properly fix it correctly
Did you have cam sensor in magnetic parts tray?
Could it be the valve cover or the gasket that the cam sensor sets in? If thats what dictates how high or low the sensor sets in relation to the cams.
Ivan anychance that the camshaft fazers are stuck. too thick of an oil will do this common problem with jeeps cheers from down under
Hey Ivan, how does the thinktool work on Audi’s? I have a 2017 A4 Quattro that I want to stay on top of. Is it better than perhaps vagcom from Ross-Tech? I am very appreciative watching your knowledge shared with most of us couch mechanics 😅
Works fantastic on all Euros 😁
Hmm, what if they have switch arround on the oil solonoid eletrical connectors this would cause a lot of mismatch between intake and exaust cam angle.
Interesting hypothesis. VVT operation was disabled, this is a base timing problem 😉
I wonder if it's possible they use parts for the wrong model year or something. Parts that would fit, but have some slight differences?
Bank 2 side cams when engine is at TDC are under spring tension so I’m thinking that is related to the problem
maybe a weak cam tensioner pulley was the original problem? or worn chain guides?
Have you measured the mounting base to tip length of both sensors? Have you double checked the part numbers? Same sensor, or, different part numbers?
Could it possibly be off at the crank ? Idk I’m a push rod v8 kinda guy
Some how CZcams deleted my comment. The reluctor wheels can be damaged by a magnet put next to them. It can be checked with this green film to show the pattern. Also there’s a tool gauge that is used to check if reluctor wheels have shifted . It’s about $145 but sometimes necessary
Computer locking out phasing when there's a correlation code. Very good strategy, as you say. But is that Jeeps only, this engine only, or a fairly common strategy with correlation codes on VVT engines???
Common across the board 👍
I was thinking if the valve cover was warped, tilting the cam sensor slightly, but your explanation that it could in theory be raised to "correct" the timing of the reluctor wheel makes me wonder if somehow it's sitting too low to begin with? Maybe it is supposed to have a shim, more material, or thicker gasket underneath of that sensor? That doesn't seem right.
Is it possible the bank 2 cams were replaced, and also had incorrect/poorly manufactured reluctors?
Valve cover being damaged or out of spec possibly but the sensor depth is set by the valve cover and should only use an o-ring type seal so even if the o-ring was missing it would still be at the same depth. I would inspect the valve cover real good,even compare it to th other side. A depth mic would be handy to compare the two sides with each other.
@@thatsonebadhatharry8610 ah, you're absolutely right about the seal usually being an oring.
cam cover gasket or can sensor seal i was thinking when you showed the sensor in place just before you lifted and said that would sort the problem are the covers handed can you get shims for sensor oem you get some brain twister jobs love em
If raising and lowering the cam sensor can change the waveform... How about valve cover gasket thickness as an issue?
Is it possible they switched both intake and exhaust cams from side to side by mistake?? Can't wait to see the final solution
If that happened I would assume it would affect both banks unilaterally. But, I’ve been wrong once or twice in my life 😂
Missing gasket on the sensor or valve cover? idk what would cause a sensor to be so far out like that if it is not in the correct physical position...
Check left exhaust camshaft to phaser fit there is a dot on cam and a dot on phaser looks like yours is misaligned like locating pin is sheared off if ok tone wheels might be shifted