Converting a R22 system to R407c
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- čas přidán 28. 08. 2024
- R407c looks like the closest overall match to R22 refrigerant. It is very inexpensive. It has the same capacity. And most importantly, it matches the suction and discharge pressures well enough that metering changes aren't necessary. This video shows how to convert a R22 system to R407c. At least 20% polyolester oil is required in the system to have proper oil return to the compressor. Here is the 3 month update video. • R407c Conversion 3 Mon...
THANKS i am retired but always love to learn new thing ,,,and this is good ,,,,thanks for sharing ,,,,god bless
I love this guy's sense of humor, most of the guys doing these videos are boring!
I have never taken out the 22. I just dropped the replacement refrigerant right in on top of it. The pressures are practically the same. It works good no problem and it saves you and the customer a lot of time and money.
"You have to be highly trained to do this, takes years of experience" lmao love it. Your my new favorite
He could barely contain himself when he was saying it. Love it...
I switched to rs-44b myself and it has been working great for me.
Did you have to change oil and compressor and filter drier on that one or what?
@@fckthemedia1649everytime you open a system to atmospheric pressure you change the line drier. ALWAYS. But no RS-44B can work with either oils
I have never seen a scroll compressor without POE as the factory oil . Learn something new every day.
Good point.
Most Copeland I've seen have mineral
Excellent video...I'm a former instructor, soon to be one again and I will use this as a teaching tool...My thanks to the gent that made it.
Vern Roach please don’t, if you think this is correct I would urge you to do some research
Don't use this to teach anyone
An excellent and most informative video...It answers a lot of questions about what is the best R22 replacement and the best way of doing it....My thanks to the gent that made this film.
thank you sir for this expository. i have been searching for a definitive answer for the best drop in and it seems no one wanted to commit to saying what is the best. here, you have laid it on the line for me. i am not an hvac tech nor a diy'er but merely wanted to know so i could talk intelligently to a service man should my unit need attention. again thank you........g
Just don't yet know about wear and tear with such swaps. For the money, say around $450, might be worth a try.
R458. No oil to change and it works great
You are an honest ac man , most ac men just change the whole system to 410 a for more money, thank you .
One this guy he didn't use nitrogen to leak check better yet a trace of nitrogen while brazing to keep coke from forming
410A is the smarter way.
I have a customer that bought 20 rental units almost every unit had no filter and impacted coils most were low on charge. Now I’m not disagreeing with you but I told him I would have to pull and clean all the coils fix leaks and convert all that were low to 407-c or replace the systems he had just bought the two buildings and was low on cash he said he just needed to get by for 6 months and he could only afford to spend 500 per unit at the time so I pulled the coils fixed the leaks pulled vacuums and charged the systems no oil change I told him without oil changes they would not last three months ( that was almost two years ago) I’m not saying it’s not a good idea to change the oil but I am saying that two years later 17 of the 20 are still running and the 3 I had to change failed because the condenser coils lost all ability to transfer heat due to corrosion not compressor failure so to all that say it’s not possible to not change the oil and last I guess I should not believe my lying eyes right! Again I’m not saying the manufacturers are wrong but that’s not really a small test sample either take it for what it’s worth 20 for 20? Now talk all the trash you want ps that’s not the only time I’ve done it with the same results
alot of guys at my local shops are saying the same thing. just drop it in and no problems
As long as you have enough velocity (which r 22 systems have) and the compressor is not installed too far above the evaporator coil oil return should not be a problem. A few squirts of POE wouldn't hurt either.
I've used r422b with great success! AC and reach in freezer box. No modifications! Negligible loss.
R407C is the closest replacement for R22, and is cheaper than R422B. You use R422B is because of no oil change required? Here is the video about comparison of different replacement refrigerants. czcams.com/video/npyYvT2Z1wU/video.html
@@alicepet1994 the guys around here have settled on r422b. One refrigerant to carry that works great. This coming from a trusted United Refrigeration manager.
R422 b works great, it’s just more expensive than 407
Thanks for sharing your knowledge, Very informative...
Watching from Philippines 🇵🇭
I love AC guys like this...I get to come behind them and sell the homeowner a nice new system and earn their business for life at a legitimate AC company. Keep up the "good" work. Cheap fixes are expensive fixes.
drewdavis08 what was wrong with this?
You have to good point. I reached a point in my life where I can fix everything. That means I have a house full of junk.
Legitimate = sell you a new system no matter what is wrong!
You sell a 10k system when you only really need a $400 fix.
R-407C is a mixture of hydrofluorocarbons used as a refrigerant. It is a zeotropic blend of difluoromethane (R-32), pentafluoroethane (R-125), and 1,1,1,2-tetrafluoroethane (R-134a). Difluoromethane serves to provide the heat capacity, pentafluoroethane decreases flammability, tetrafluoroethane reduces pressure.[1] R-407C cylinders are colored burnt orange. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/R-407C
look up the emissions from water treatment plants. the amount of chlorine. and dig deep because ya know, propaganda these days…
I use R438a (M099) and no oil change. No failures in 5+ years.
Same here. I just change the driver. No problems. About 8 peices of equipment in the last 4 or 5 years.
Drier
Propane is scary
Great video and I love your sense of humor. You would be fun fun to work with!
Great video. Great conversion!
I've been adding straight 407C to R22 units for the past 4 years and no call backs. Systems are running great.
How are the pressures?similar?
@@Clamjammer very similar. Only thing different is that you turn the can upside down with the 407c. I add it very slowly.
refugiorod Add 20% POE on the top of mineral oil? Or 100% change out for POE just like he did in this video?
I am with the EPA and would like to visit with you. What is a good number for you?
Message me.
Pretty much the procedure we follow. Most of the time we actually flush the system to remove most of the mineral oil that’s remaining. In Australia this can sometimes be more expensive than charging with r22 though depending on who manufactured the compressor, Copeland scrolls are fine to have a bit of mineral oil but with a maneurop the suggested thing is to remove as much oil as possible and if you can, change the oil twice. With certain compressors the cost is actually cheaper to use r22 because POE is quite expensive. Obviously over time if it’s in bad shape and you know it’ll leak again soon just do the oil change because 407c is definitely a lot cheaper
P.s. it sometimes also depends on the customer we have one particular customer who doesn’t want to change from r22 due to the capacity drop and that leading to their switchrooms overheating (no redundant cooling)
The manufacturers specify the high purity I think just to cover their asses. Oil blends are used all the time in the automotive industry. Also 407c should have the exact same capacity as R22.
@@NathansHVAC in Australia it’s annoying because to be legally compliant we have to do retrofits according to manufacturer instruction, even if the manufacturers only specify it to cover their asses. And with the capacity thing it should be the same capacity but in practice it isn’t always and I’m not sure why. It’s definitely not as much capacity drop as mo99 but it’s still measurable on larger systems and tends to trip head pressure on those 45+ degree days (about 115 Fahrenheit).
The main customer of ours who still wants to use r22 is a certain power company, perhaps they have more dollars than sense but their infrastructure is very critical so I’m not going to argue with them
R22 is still plentiful, if the leak can be fixed just fix it and recharge with R22. You don't have to charge the homeowner $100+ lb, that is just what the industry charges. R22 cost a technician/company about $15 a lb, most companies just have a high mark-up to capitalize on the phase out and to push new systems. If the system needs more than a couple of pounds a year and can't be repaired then it should just be replaced with a R410a system as soon as possible. These alternatives are really only good for those that have a leaky system that don't want to upgrade, but then they are a pain to technicians that don't work with it. I don't care what they claim, they are not as good at transferring heat as R22. In this case I would have recharged with R22 after the repair Good work never the less.
R22 is trash
@@Mushroomcapgenova r22 cools way way better than r410. Half the pressures too . best refrigerant used in residential cooling besides r11
@@Clamjammer yea but r22 is being fazed out dude. It's over and done with. I am not looking to play games with swapping a r22 unit to another gas. It's all crap if you need to replace the unit you replace it. Period the end
@@Mushroomcapgenova 😂😂 what a comment. R22 is the miracle refrigerant and will be plentiful for years to come.
Good job on the video, I learned a little more. I'll be watching several more before starting to make a move but I appreciate your information. I will probably convert to 407C and get a new compressor.
Clint Hightower surpluscityliquidators.com
@@NathansHVAC Didnt find any coils there, let alone a horizontal 5ton r22
I do pretty much the same thing but I use a syringe and flexible plastic tube and remove the oil through the process tube and replace what I took out.I understand why you sweated that Compressor out .I am retired but you should do a video using the process tube.good video.
Thanks for the pointer.
many compressors don't have process tubes ,but if it has it use it.great video.Everyone better be ready after 2020.There will be lots of work for everyone.Just seems to me they should have made the refrigerant safe for Mineral and synthetic,
Actually, 2019 is zero production of new R22 refrigerant.
Thanks for this. My scammer hvac service contract co said there was nothing you could replace R22 with and my old system was junk. Conveniently they have a "special" on replacement systems. 🙄 I'm also glad I did a little research on R22a DIY kits. Shit - that stuff's scary!
can you share more please> I literally had the same D bag. lol
@@OnceShy_TwiceBitten - haha I totally forgot about this video. I spent a fair bit of time trying to find somebody who would make this transfer and nobody wanted to take it on and I didn’t have time to do DIY. So I’m ashamed to say I folded like a cheap lawn chair and bought a new AC system and furnace. I must say the more modern DC variable speed fan is a huge improvement keeping our house cool. Fight the good fight brother!
NU22 just drops right in to replace R22. No fuss, no muss--ya cheeky bastards.
I used to use M099 as a drop in and never had a problem, was made by Dupont and not National so United didnt sell it.
Nice video bud. Good job
It will be interesting to see in the next few years how many "converted systems" fail early because of people not changing the oil.
There is no guessing about converting to R407c. All the major compressor manufacturers certify R407c as the R22 replacement. The engineers already did the longevity testing. Actually, R407c was almost considered as the long term refrigerant replacement instead of R410a.
Tecumseh certifies it:
certifiedrefrigerant.com/tecumsehguidelines%20for%20utilization%20of%20r407c.pdf
Copeland certifies it:
www.certifiedrefrigerant.com/copeland_r22_r407c_retrofit_guidelines.pdf
Bristol certifies it:
www.certifiedrefrigerant.com/bristol_r22_r407c_retrofit_guidelines.pdf
I was concerned about mixing POE and mineral oil. However, I mixed them 50/50 in a test tube without any noticeable separation even after 1 month. I also confirmed with my chemist contact at National Refrigerants that mixing the oils is fine. I made another video showing why R407c is the best R22 substitute based on EPA testing.
I don’t over think things. I let the engineers do the research. They are much more knowledgeable. I confirmed that 20% POE is good in a simple residential application. Residential oil return is much easier than low temperature refrigeration or commercial with very long vertical line lengths. It doesn’t take much to return the oil.
I don't like any of the drop in R22 replacements. They all use 3% butane to return the oil. The butane does nothing in the refrigeration cycle and probably is why they all lose capacity. Ebay keeps selling "Propane" as the eco friendly R22 replacement. There are obvious explosion hazards with that replacement. It is my opinion that 20% POE oil will return the mineral oil alot better than 3% butane. Also, R407c is the least expensive of all the retrofits. So, it is a no brainer to use R407c when I come across a flat system.
Rectorseal make a POE oil test. I had a oil refractometer 20 years ago when I did commercial. But, the best test when a bad converted compressor is found will be to turn it over and see if any oil comes out. If the compressor is dry, then no PEO oil was added to the system.
Butane is still a refrigerant, so it contributes to the cycle.
NathansHVAC butane can be used as a refrigerant. Propane is used in other nations as a home and auto refrigerant. It's no more dangerous than having a gas furnace.
Thank you. Outstanding video.
Damn I wish you were my ac guy!
I just changed a r22 system with 407C+, the plus lets you do a direct drop in with an additive already in the gas which mixes with the R22 oil. 407C+ is a little more expensive but it saves you the time of having to add oil. Also, if you get a leak later on, you only have to add 407c because the oil is already treated.
Old comment - but thanks. I'm a student studying for my Universal.
Disconnect suction and discharge line, clean the piping system with high pressure using nitrogen gas, fill the compressor with recommend r407c oil ,put the compressor back and then recharge with r407c
I was just told my ac was leaking...some dye would have to be put in to find it and would get very expensive. Also it uses r22, which can't be used anymore, so only possibility is a new ac unit.
Great video. Crazy how times change, 407C is $600 a jug now 😂
Just wait till 2024 when R410a is banned. It's going to be nuts.
It’s time for retirement or fine another line of work 😂
Highly trained to pour oil in a cup😮
A scale!!! you mean a measuring cup
Great video, I learned a lot. My 1.5 ton R22 unit iced up so was not blowing very cold or very hard. I turned off the system for about an hour and then ran the fan only for about another hour to defrost it. The filter is clean and no vents are blocked. All the icing was gone and the AC was blowing again although not blowing very cold. I know it will ice up if the Freon is low. The service tech came out and said it was low and put in 2lbs of 407C. My question, how many pounds does a 1.5 ton unit hold and would only down 2 pounds cause my system to become frozen? Hope I explained it correctly. Thanks so much.
Yes, a 1.5 ton need between 3.5 to 5 pounds... depending the brand... and yes, with 2 pounds less, any unit get frozen; because the pressure goes low and reaches lower temperature...
Haha topped of the 22 with 407c . I like it . Poor compressor
One pound low will do it my friend
Its not necessary to replace the oil. If you put in Supco it will allow the 407 to pick up the mineral oil and move it and no sludge build up has been noted. Been following this method for 4 years now with no issues. Used it on systems up to 30 tons.
What do you mean put in Supco, is that oil, addative oe refrigerant?
Supco is just a brand....what the hell are you talking about Kathy? Can you please explain?
It’s an additive for the oil, used before on semi hermetic systems and it works really good
Wow ! I would ask you one more question, but that would qualify me as an A*^& E. The best to you and your Family. Ted.
When I was a helper the tech bought this canister so it can convert instead of doing it this way.
could've used an oil pump hooks up to a gauge hose minimum of 5 strokes 2 to 3 for the least saves time . awesome video ,earned a new sub .
Locutz M you can't pull the oil out of the compressor through the lines.
@@Bryan-Hensley yes you can with nitrogen blow it out into a catch can then flush the system out and recharge the oil with the same oil pump .
I would have changed all the oil and i didn't see you give the system a good 15 -20 minutes vacum before charging with the 407. That thing is mandatory! ...and you only have to charge it 90 % of the r22 charging capacity. You could also read Widow's son reply. That's the best thing you could have done.
Thanks for the info about not charging a full charge on R407c. As for vacuuming: 10 minutes with 3/8 hoses, removed valve cores and a vacuume tree is the sames as 40 minutes thru 1/4 inch hoses. I'll do a video on this subject some day. It is all about pressure drop vs flow rate thru the hoses. At 500 microns, even the smallest pressure drop destroys the vacuum flow to the pump. The reason is that 0 microns is the absolute limit. Think of placing a condenser unit in outer space and just opening the ports to do the evacuation. The flow rate to space is determined by the opening size and the hose connected to it. Flow rate is a square of diameter. 3/8 has 2x the diameter as 1/4 and 4x the flow rate. These rules don't apply to reclaiming because a 400 micron drop on the hose is 0.01psi. You will never notice such a low pressure drop effecting flow at 100 psi. However, at 500 microns the same 400 micron pressure drop means much longer vacuum times.
Converting a R22 system to R407c
1 I read 95% polyolester oil (POE) and 5% mineral (old R22 oil) is OK.
2 POE oil is hygroscopic that means the oil should be pumped in and the oil can should not be opened to the air.
But great work this is almost unknown by local Hvac companies here in DFW Thank You
As a Hvac engineer
You can open compressor
Removing the valve stem.
Insert a rubber tube down to the bottom of the compressor
Suck out 95% the old R22 mineral oil.
Re install valve stem
vac system
Purge with dry N2
Vac system
Charge with R407C
That way the compressor stays in place and all your doing is sucking out 95% of the old R22 mineral oil adding new POE oil then re install valve stem. Purge with dry N2. Vac the system and charge with R407c.
Pulling the compressor IMO is not necessary.
The above is a really low cost way to go from expensive obsolete R22 to low cost R407c
The moisture sensitivity is over rated. It takes hours for POE oil to saturate. And, when it does saturate it is still just parts per million of water.
great video. very consise
Great video sir keep them coming 🙌🏻🙌🏻🙌🏻
Yeah buddy. Good video.
I have an old 4 Ton R22 split system, the compressor rotted through releasing all the R22. The Attic is very in accessible, so I opted to purchase a new 407C compressor and leave the coil alone. Anybody see any problems with this strategy ? Now I need to get the system charged ? Can I do this myself ? Where can I rent the gear ?
Lots of good info here. Thanks for the video.
I was just thinking to my self, id suck to sneeze at about 4:20 or so, haha
I do try not to sweat in the pipes. However, evacuation would clean it up.
hello there, let me see if i understood about change the refrigerant r22 to r407c. for an a/c by expansion byt capillary tube or expansion valve only is necessary change the oil of the system and dryer filter from line of liquid? or exist other dispositive for change it?
greatings from Perú.
Did u have to flush the system out first? ? or just only the oil from the compressor? good video
Flush is for burn outs. Mixing oil is fine.
Mixing oils gives you different temperature glides
@@Tip-o-Texas mixing mineral oil and Poe oil is not compatible together you'll end up replacing that system within next 6 months or less due to will eventually knock that compressor out
Quick Question: Do you or do you NOT need to install a THX valve doing a 407C switch on a R-22 compressor. The 410a uses it, but R22 did not.
Nope, txv will keep superheat constant depending on temp. The txv should be able to compensate for the slight pressure difference of 407c compared to r22
That suction line on the comp was brazed by stevie wonder.....Try R458, works great with a 10⁰ sub
I might do that. Currently I always add leak saver ultimate to every top off. I have plenty of r22. I suggest getting plenty of r410a as soon as the price drops down below $200. It is being phased out even faster than R22 was.
Молодец! Хорошо справился с кондиционером и всё толково объяснил!
с маслом не сильно ясно только...
You just done what 99% of AC companies say you can't do. They will sell you a new system though. How is the system holding up with the new coolant?
System is doing fine
Very good video...more power to you!!
good little video. I don't have a lot of experience with 407 I've used drop in this for 22 with how expensive 22 has gotten period but I'm going to have to start checking into the 407C if it's about the same price as 410A
Freon MO99 is the closest performance match in terms of capacity and efficiency to R-22 of all "no oil change" replacement refrigerants and is compatible with all traditional and new lubricants. MO99 Freon also has a significantly lower discharge temperature that may prolong the life of the old R-22 compressor. I've had it running in my old R-22 unit 3 years now and works perfect and much less expensive than R-22.
Rob... How did you do the swap. Im not an hvac guy but im trying to figure it out to attempt to save money? Any good resources will help to.
I was watching another video and one guy commented that he is in the US Army and they are converting all their equipment to MO99.
So I have an accumulator and I'm changing a 5 ton r22 unit to r407c. Was just going to RX flush, blow out with nitrogen, then replace with new compressor that comes with POE oil. I guess I dont have to take the accumulator out and dump out any oil?
If you are doing the compressor, might as well take out the accumulator. Also paint it
Really thorough great job
How much would this process cost? Where are you located? and are there any AC Techs that can do this in Charlotte, NC?
Wow..more steps to simply use 407c. My r22 system is flat right now due to leak.
Maybe 410 a is not the best but how many different cans of refrigerant do you need to carry today? Standard refrigerants should become standard.
Brian Ellsworth I only carry two types. R22 and R410a.
Due to the check valve in the scroll compressors they start unloaded and cause a high torque start and the compressor twists every time and work hardens the copper lines producing cracks ; The manufacturers need to make loops in the piping to absorb the compressor torque .
I ended up repairing that same leaking spot 3 TIMES!!!!!!! I finally made a very large loop in the copper. So far so good. I am glad that R407c is almost as cheap as R410a.
@@NathansHVAC Miracles are performed daily by professional HVAC tecks repairing factory screw ups . I think that problem is solved .
Great video as usual. You have to be the best hvac man I've seen. Why do you use the hodgepodge of gauges and thermometers instead of a digital manifold where the temp press chart is loaded in there and it does sc and sh for you? Sorry if you've answered this already.
Size, weight and accuracy. I try to get the lightest tools that I can, because I am getting older. I find it extremely useful to have the tools small enough that they can be carried all the time in my tool bag. Also, the fluke pipe clamp thermocouple is the most accurate. However, you do have to rinse it off with hot water occasionally.
in Indonesia r407c is widely used for water cooling machines and also air dryers, the compressor machine used is a scroll type, the question is whether r407c can be used in rotary compressors?
noticed you charged this as a vapor. 407c is a blend of different refrigerents and should be charged as a liquid. you should have inverted the can the entire time you charged it just as you would charge 410a.
You are correct. R407c is even more zeotropic than R410a. I just leak check and triple evacuate with vapor. This isn't ideal and probably swings the gas blend slightly. I always charge as liquid. The bigger issue is refrigerant leaks changing the blend during the off season when the equipment isn't running. People including myself do forget that the blends (including R410a) don't leak the same as R22. I suppose I will have to get a refrigerant gas analyzer some day. But, they are still around $2k. And, I have never run across a system that i suspected had the wrong refrigerant in it yet.
exactly
@@NathansHVAC that's because you've not been to my house. When I sell my house, I plan on venting and burning the propane out of my system and drawing a vacuum on it for a good amount of time before I call a AC guy to recharge. That's assuming my compressor lasts that long.
I filled my system with propane because I just couldn't afford anything else and I had to fix my central AC for my newborn. A wire came loose from the last guy who worked on my system and it burned a pin hole in a tube, easy fix. So far, my energy bill is about the same but obviously I may be having oil issues and may reduce the life span of the compressor. I'm fine with that of it means overall I'm spending less money(I will be even if I end up replacing a compressor). If I have to replace a compressor, I'll definitely be looking into putting the proper oil in it.
propane???
Sure, propane.. I live close to the Mexican boarder and for a long time people were going to Mex to fill their R-12 cars and all they put in was propane... Only issue with it is: burning, exploding and burning your house down.. But that is what insurance is for..... But you can order a 30# R22 jug for 400$ on refrigerantforless.com , not worth a house fire over 400 bucks IMO
I like you video. I got you ! thank you
Could you not short cycle the compressor opening your manifold and have it pump the mineral oil out after removing any R22 ?? Then pull a vacume, install via the vacume the synthetic oil, then pull a vacume a second time before dumping in the 407C ??
It is necessary to change the oil when you change freon R22 to 407 and why charging liquid gas directly to low side its not gonna burn the compressor when you that? Please reply me anyone can explain well? Thank you
It is also recommended to change o-rings and schraders.
Yes. Technically, the butyl rubber absorbs CFC and HFC at different rates. So, the rubber swells or shrinks depending on what was done. Personally, I can't see caps going bad. I would have changed the cores, but the yahoo before me over tightened the hard flare caps and made it too difficult to pull the cores.
No, it is necessary to replace anything with a seal!
great video, this is what I want to know!
The way it looks is that you let all the r-22 in escape in the air!!! And I've heard about "professionals" letting the r22 in the air . You can sell recovered r22 too, you know!
407c kills capacity too, you're actually losing 7% in capacity compared to R-22. And you shouldn't have more than 5% by weight of mineral oil. If you haven't had a call back you're lucky. As a contractor I dont recommend the use of drop-in replacements, the risk heavily outweigh the rewards. Either leak search and repair, and recharge with R-22 or sell them a new unit. Save the customers and yourselves the headache of a return visit with additional labor costs.
Mineral oil comes back fine in residential applications that have high temp evaporators. There just needs to be a minimum of 20% POE oil in the system. I verified this with a phd industry expert that works for one of the big refrigerant manufacturers. I can't name my source because for obvious reasons.
So my 10 year old 3 ton unit is leaking R-22.
The AC guy told me last year that I should replce my entire system because the days of R-22 are coming to a close.
Are you telling me that I can keep my current system, have someone fix my leak, then convert me to a newer freon?
Why do these guys constantly try to rip people off?
Yes you can go to R-407c which is much less expensive. Some shops use it, some don't. Any they're in business to make money. You do not have to pull the compressor out though. They make a pump you can stick in the compressor and remove most of the oil.
Only thing you have to remember is you pay to find and fix the leak. Pay to recover the r-22 and evacuate they system. Pay to recharge the system with the new replacement refrigerant and your left with a 10-20yr old unit that the compressor fails next year.
And when you need another costly repair next year, after paying to find and fix your leak, evacuate and recharge your 10 year old system, that by the way only has a 15-20 year life span, did the guy that converted it really do you any favors? Or are you better off upgrading to a new system with a warranty that likely won’t break when you need it most? I hardly see how that is consistently trying to rip you off.
R-410a is the new refrigerant and there isn't and 'converting' to it. It's all new equipment. You're just using a R-22 replacement by using R-407c. I tell my customers to get all they can get out of their equipment as it doesn't take long for us to get there to either repair or replace the unit. But you know it's coming so get your ducks in a row to be able to deal with when it happens. I'm not a believer in replacing equipment that doesn't need to be replaced. If you find the leak is in the evaporator coil, which is quite common, you can put in just an air handler or coil to break it down into smaller chunks of cost. You can use a R-410 a coil with R-22 but most of these guys don't know how. That way you'd have a new air handler with a coil that would work with either refrigerant and when the time comes to replace the outdoor unit that's all you'd have to do. Otherwise I've found few condenser coil leaks though they do occur and that really only leaves open piping that can be repaired or maybe a tube on the reversing valve if you have a heat pump. Seldom do we need to use a dye and never use sniffer type leak detectors. 99% of the time it's visually obvious where the leak is. Most want to sell units but don't get that it's really bad for their business. I mean they're not going to make any real money for 10 or years so they have to find new fish to fry constantly. I repair many older units to give my customers a heads up that things are going to go bad. We don't just slam the door at 'you need a new unit'. Many people aren't sitting on $5k - $6k to put in a new unit and it can be devastating. We have no problem reasonably repairing older equipment even if it's a R-22 unit. Others think new equipment is the only solution. Problem is, the newer equipment isn't nearly as reliable as the older stuff and to us it makes no sense to replace working equipment. Finding leaks should be easy to do and only if it's a major component, such as a condenser or evaporator coil, would we say replace it.
Even though R22 will be banned from manufacture and import next year, R22 stockpiles will be around for many years to come. Plus the price has really dropped recently.
hlo sir I'm your new subscriber 👋
Bnas noches cuales son las presiones de trabajo del r407c y su sobrecalentamiento gracias
Great video thanks! , the only thing stopping me from doing it is, I don't have a vaccuum pump, my question.... is the vaccuum pump something I a must have when recharging the system from 100% empty?
People used to purge. Buy the epa forbids it now. Plus, purge wont flush out moisture. Get a cheap pump.
@@NathansHVAC thanks for the quick response! In other words I do need to get a vaccuum pump right?
@@NathansHVAC my system is empty so I'll replace the oil as shown in the video, once I've replaced it do I need the vacuum pump in order to add the new 407c ? or can I just hook up the tank and gauges and add the gas?
Great video ! What is the operating pressure of 407 ? Around 75 ?
and I don't have balance so what is it the pressure of R-407 Low and High pressure, the R-22 work wint 60-70 low and high 230 psi, so what is ther pressure in R-407 thanks
R407c is the same pressure as r22. It is the closest match possible for pressure and capacity.
Where can I find the amount of oil in a compressor? Thank you. Great video
Spec sheets sometimes show. Most compressors are about 30 ounces. The exact level isn't that important.
@@NathansHVAC Thank you for the info.
Awesome job thank you so much
Nathan, when you did this did you have the king valves closed? So when you broke the vacuum you broke it by adding the factory charge then cracked the king valves? Thanks
Didn’t watch it. But if he did he is an idiot
question for you. i have someone replacing my outside unit compressor. understably, the 407c is the best compatible replacement for the r22. long term use of the r407c will cost me less money in the future if i need more refill.i was told that i should keep the r22 since the upstairs unit works harder than the downstairs unit. any thoughts......
Is more easy to put 422 is less labor to do and cheaper
R22 to 407C doesn't need oil change... both use the same oil... plus that compressor oil was really good!
Mineral and alkybenzal are r22 only.
@@NathansHVAC, read the instructions of refrigerants and you'll see...
yeah but tell me please how many oz need it the compressor of the new oil to R-407, thanks
"You have to be highly trained to do this" haha just use a funnel to drop the oil in the compressor not a piece of paper
Is r421a better than R407c? Thank you for your video.
the charge will be 80% in R407 the pressure is hi on R407 and lower in R22?? i m learnig hvac
Mo99 is 80% of the charge of r22
That's what I'm saying this guy's out of his fucken mind sayng you gain capacity, there's no fcking way!!! otherwise everybody would be using it !!!you lose capacity on all the replacements
How much is the R22 per KG over there? In Kenya it’s only $5 per kg so we still use new R22 systems.
why not go over to Nu22? no oil concerns, no metering device concerns, only about 1/2 the temperature glide as compared W/ 407c... and its cheap. discharge temp is lower than 22, suction is also a bit lower than 22, uses less charge volume only drawback is a slight capacity loss, BUT, its the closest thing to a drop in, and has the longest track record of them all. Like all 400 series HFCs rubber O rings and core valves need to be replaces. Teflon is of no concern...
just can't use it on a flooded system
hvac01453 capacity and superheat change. plus, it is more expensive.
Here is a better reply. Nu22 is R422B. Capacity will drop 17%. Discharge pressure drops 15%. Suction Pressure drops 7%. R422B composition is 55% R125, 42% R134a and 3% Isobutane. The Butane returns the oi. R407c is nearly the same mixture, but without the Butane. For R407c, capacity will drop 2%. Suction will drop 2%. Discharge will increase 9%. R407c is a much closer match for expansion valves. You just have to add some POE to return the oil instead of the Butane in Nu22. Save money and have a better match for the system design. Here is the link to all the data. www.epa.gov/sites/production/files/documents/Choosing_Right_R22_Retrofit.pdf
422B capacity loss is only 5-9% dependent on proper charge, not 17%. The glide of 407C is 9F compared to 5F with 422B, and still an A1 class with the butane, and POE isn't needed. also 407C has a higher amp draw, less dehumidification. So It might just come down to what your supply house is carrying.
They are all pretty much the same refrigerants. But, the EPA document has these capacity measurements at 25 deg F evap for commercial refrigeration. 35 deg F evap will have less loss. Using the 9% number from the ICOR website probably puts R407c as gaining capacity in residential applications. It is interesting to note that anyone who thinks 20% POE oil mixtures won't return the oil needs to explain how 3% butane can return it. I like the EPA document because it has all the drop in compared side by side apples to apples.
NU-22 (R417a) 50% R134a, 47% R125, 3% Butane -23% Capacity
NU-22B (R422B) 42% R134a, 55% R125, 3% Butane -17% Capacity
R407c 52% R134a, 25% R125, 23% R32 -3% Capacity
What you do with the refuse 407 is bury it. Or the dumpster.
1) do you put same amount of 407c in weight as you would have had R22? 2) is it my understanding that changing the oil in the compressor to POE is enough for this conversion? did not quite understand what you meant by bringing it back. the oil in the lines? or for circulation. 3) my understanding is that the later R22 units they were already putting in POE vs mineral oil how can I find out which oil is in the system? Is there a test for POE oil? I can't find any info on the label it is a York unit. Thanks
Yes to both. Only 20% or more of the system oil needs to be poe.
Copeland BTU rating for 407C is around 5% LESS than R22, according to their data sheets on new (2016) 407c/r22 approved compressor. (around 81,000 for 407c vs. 85,500 for R22, on a ZR84KCE).
Good info.
Hay que cotizar los trabajos adecuados al servicio que se realizará al equipo.
thank very moch good video
You Charge By The Hour ? Lol What You Just Did Is Completely Unnecessary, There Are Several Refrigerants That Are Also Inexpensive & Dont Need To Change The Oil & Operate Perfect. I Am A Engineer & Field Tech, & Owner of a Commercial HVACR Company, I See Residential Techs & Residential Companys Always Over Charging Residential Customers For Service & Replacements Units, Because Most Residential Customers Dont Know Better. This Video Is Perfect Example Of That. Put The Customers Actual HVAC Needs Above Your Profit Desires. I Did & My Company Continues To Grow.
R407c is way cheaper. It saves the customer money. It takes 30 minutes to flip a compressor over and change the oil. Plus, you get full capacity and exact pressures without the need to adjust super heat or the charge.
@@NathansHVAC i wonder if i could do the same on my rheem unit since its 1995 model
The truth is that what is said about changing from refrigerant R-22 to R-407C is respectful, but what they do not say is that R-407C is even more rebellious than R-410A and why do I say it because when there is a 407-C leak and a lot of refrigerant has been lost, it cannot be recharged because instability is generated in the system because the refrigerant is unbalanced and when they put it on the mark, the high-pressure clock hand becomes unstable and that is the sign of that this recharge is unsuccessful and lost and it is time to remove the refrigerant and it cannot be used again, instead a substitute for R-22 is R-427A and this one can be adjusted for charge even with positive pressure considering that it has lost the freon through the service valves and it is recharged and when it is started it does not generate the novelties that are presented with the R-407C and the R-410A, as I said it is respectable but when changing the refrigerant in a system we must make a excellent cleanliness of the internal circuit in the condenser coil and the evaporator, consider the refrigeration turns and in the expansion check if it is TXV, piston or Capillary to check the pressure drop at the evaporator inlet and logically change the filter. and depending on the expansion device when putting the machine into operation, the super heat, sub cooling and the thermal difference inside the house or apt. When the oil is removed from the compressor, it must be measured in c.c. and that same amount that was measured enter it and do it in the shortest possible time so that the oil and in this case, which is polyol ester, does not absorb moisture and that the task is more efficient. Greetings.
Perfection is the enemy of good enough.
Hi... could you tell me if when doing a Freon retro fit from R22 to 407c, do you have to change the TXV on the Evap. to a 407C type.
No. That is the reason to use 407C. It is the closest match available to R22. The old expansion valve has R22 in the diaphragm. All the other retrofits require adjustment or replacement of the expansion valve. R407C is close enough that no changes are needed other than putting in 20% or more POE oil to return the existing mineral oil in the system.
I'd like to know where you get this 20% from of POE oil added to R22 system to convert to 407c when Emerson as well as Tecumseh say nothing about this 20% figure. In fact they say that you should have no more than 5% mineral oil in the system and optimum is 1% mineral oil or less. Tecumseh goes on to say that if the model of the compressor doesn't contain a 'C' notation in the model number referencing R407c as acceptable then 407c is not recommended for use in that compressor. I've read things you say about listening to the pros but then when I go and read what you post as reference material that reference material is in contradiction to what you say. # Keeping it real.www.certifiedrefrigerant.com/copeland_r22_r407c_retrofit_guidelines.pdf (split links hopefully this will work.)certifiedrefrigerant.com/tecumsehguidelines%20for%20utilization%20of%20r407c.pdf
I get that number from a Phd chemical engineer at one of the large refrigerant manufactures. His specialty is compressor oil and refrigerants. I won't name his name or where he works. But, he basically says that 20% POE will work on most residential applications that don't have long vertical rises to the compressor. If you email me, I will forward his exact reply. n a t h a n g w @ a i r m a i l . n e t without the spaces.
Yes must be
can i buy a 410a condensing unit and drain the compressor use poly ester and charge with 407 ? air handler looks almost new but system is 20 years old
Should I use POE 32 or 68?
I see people on CZcams using 32.
I got local Johnstone telling me 68.
Please let me know! Thank you!
Curious about you mention to also just add the oil and overfill since none is pulled? So, minimum 20% POE of compressor-stated oil capacity of POE just added and leave it?
Tie Dye yes. Just add enough poe oil to return the mineral oil and you are good to go.