Ha! I love this one. While I would prefer to buy something more durable, it's awesome to see such a "horrible" set of cables do so well as audiophools will claim to hear the difference between $300 and $1000 cables. Yes, much longer cables may have parasitic losses that do become relevant, but the companies selling ultra-premium cables are charlatans.
Sadly you are the one spreading false cable information. I just scientifically reviewed a review about cables and the proof is undeniable: czcams.com/video/TKQJExh0ND0/video.html
What?? This mans ScIeNcE is no match for an audiophiles ability to hear the blacker blacks and far superior soundstage that can only be had with a 20k set of RCA cables.
50 years ago, nobody bought their own cables because every stereo component came with plenty of cables, and they worked just fine. The only problem I ever came across was with the RCA connectors themselves--some didn't make good contact, and would occasionally "buzzed" because they came loose. For me, the solution was pro gear with XLR or at least TRS connectors, those always connect snugly and never buzz. Pro audio gear typically uses 3-conductor shielded twisted pair cable for microphone level and longer cable runs, terminated by an op-amp or transformer. But for shorter runs, 2-conductor coax not unlike what is used for home stereo is also used. And when you work with musicians, guitar players will sometimes "borrow" your audio cables. The problem with guitar players is that their hi-Z cables used to connect the guitar to the amplifier have the exact same 1/4" TS connectors that they use to connect the amplifiers to their speakers. I've seen guitars hooked up using unshielded speaker cable, and speaker cabinets connected to amps using shielded guitar cable. And I've had A2s that have "borrowed back" the wrong cables too. Surprisingly it doesn't make that much difference, as long as there's a complete circuit. Inexpensive home stereos even had speaker cables with RCA terminations, and people would use them to connect line level components with no issues.
I’ve been into audio systems since the mid 70’s wish I had all the money back I’ve wasted on cabling and speaker wire over the years. Currently using 16awg speaker wire and $5 interconnects. Sound is awesome.
I think for short RCA cables even if was not made of copper wire and the resistance was not good, it probably won’t affect the sound quality that the human ear can detect
In automotive audio, it is usually better to have better shielding and as a result, if you go to Walmart's automotive department or an auto parts store, they have decently priced but well shielded RCA cables. The better shielding is recommended for coax digital audio hookups as well. A lot of well shielded RCA cables can also be found in musical instrument/DJ audio stores as well.
Amir is the super hero that abused and innocent audio consumers need. Absolute LEGEND. I can just see Amir head super imposed on Superman with 'aSr' on his chest. I also have the Amazon basics cable, I think the trick is to pay just enough for decent build quality and sheilding.
I’ve been in Audio for the last 60 years (prior to the cable insanity era) and I always knew that the so called crappy cables were perfectly fine. I guess because I couldn’t hear the difference I assumed they were good. It’s nice to know You’ve vindicated my judgment. Thank you. Kudos to you! Interestingly enough, I visited Grammy award winning recording studios 18 years ago and guess what? They didn’t give a rat’s ass which cables they used in the signal chain, as long as they worked.
I agree the crappy cables sound amazing. The issue is that if you are connecting and disconnecting, they are more prone to break. But other than that, they are great
Have been waiting too for someone with an AP device to do this; result was as expected. I've always used inexpensive cables in my home and PA (excepting the 25-50ft 4 conductor speaker cables needed in some venues - that's a fair amount of copper and they need to withstand heavy use and abuse + pass signals in the kW's). At some point I want to switch all my RCA's to Belden wire but that's only cause they have cool colors 😄
Good to know they measure well but how is the soundstage? Instrument separation? Microdetail? Punch and slam? These are the important questions to answer when evaluating cables. 🤣
@@NeverTalkToCops1 have you heard systems which produce a holographic stereo image? can you distinguish between good and bad recordings on your system?
Fantastic video! Excellent review style and communication skills. No nonsense. Just the facts! I finally found a reviewer I can stand. I like audioholics but he’s a bit hard to follow sometimes. What a great service Amir is providing.
I would like to see a shielded cable vs the cable tested in this video, but among the rats nest and power cords! That represents 99.9% of our situations.
Yes, that would be a real world test and good to know. The cheap ones fall apart and not very durable and then they don't connect and have a loose, I make my own w beldon RG5 20awg solid copper and tinned copper shield and Aluminum foil
There he goes again! Spoiling the enjoyment of music with facts and science! Great to see the analysis on such an essential, and yet basic component of nearly all setups. I enjoyed the added note of "feel free to refer them to this review".
So many things in the "audiophile" world are blatant ripoffs that I have to type "audiophile" in quotes because it's hard to take the whole thing seriously.
I would love for you to make a "bird's nest" test, if you look behind an audio system do both power, interconnects and speaker cables run in parallel and across each others. How much of this do in fact gets picked up, how much gets amplified or send directly to the speakers? How much does your small SMPS, your light fixtures, refrigerator and other things in reality influence the sound? Electronic engineers do spend a lot of time, knowledge and energy to avoid EMI and other types of noise.
To simulate magnetic induction, I use an AC transformer and have to literally touch the RCA cable and align it the right way to get some to induce. Even then, what is induced is very low in amplitude and hence inaudible. See tests here: www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/battle-of-rca-cables-mogami-amazon-monoprice.27871/ So I don't see the rats nest being a factor. Running a wire parallel to power line for many feet may do it though.
@@AudioScienceReview I like you, it's amazing how you always take you time to reply to comments, even the once from less knowledge people like me. I had a wrong idea of unshielded cables delivering a minute signal that men got amplified maybe 30 times, that this signal could maybe make the speaker driver vibrate a bit, all the time. I have seen videos on how, even standing near an electronic sensitive test, can kick everything off balance. :-)
Thanks Amir, you are the only audio review worth listening to. I saw a big name audio youtuber say that if you use thin cables the music sounds "thin" too! Honestly, that is so annoying when you are looking for good advice.
That parallels the widespread notion the vacuum tube audio gear sounds "warm," which IMO is psychologically derived from the literally warm glow of the "valves" themselves.
The main issues I have are: Not reliable if plugged and unplugged a lot, poor shielding, and questionable connection. BUT, unlike a lot of "audiophile" cables, they won't break your RCA jacks when unplugging them. And for short runs that are not unplugged often, they're usually just fine.
Those would be main non-issues would they not? 99% of people do not unplug RCA cables "a lot" and you have no evidence they'd fail if that were the case. Shielding as the man told you is of no matter in this length. Inherent in the review is that the connection is absolutely fine unless connection means something to you having nothing to do with the purpose of the device. The cable was 3 ft and Amir addressed longer lengths. You got nothing, not even a reason for a suspicion! What you should question is yourself!
@@johnsmith1474 Wow. I guess those 45 years as an audio repair tech did me no good in choosing audio cables? Besides, I did more or less agree with him. I merely added my own personal experience to the discussion. In fact, the last sentence in my original post made it plain that I generally agreed with Amir's findings. But that's cool. It's ok for you to disagree with me. I can't force you to be right. As for my "reason for suspicion," it's those four-and-a-half decades of experience. And I question myself daily. Perhaps more than I should. By the way, lots of folks swap components in their systems regularly. Try one preamp and one power amp together, then try the same preamp with another power amp, etc. This does entail a lot of plugging and unplugging. And I've diagnosed many a system problem down to a bad cable over the years. I've also fixed many a component whose RCA jacks were broken because they used excessively tight-fitting "audiophile" cables that needed so much force to disconnect that the user either ripped the ground sleeve off the RCA jack or broke the solder connections on the board the jacks were mounted to. This happens more than you might think. And I will disagree with Amir slightly about shielding, because some cheap cables sold on Amazon today are not actually shielded, even when they say they are. They're just two thin wires running under the jacket, although I am quite familiar with the cable he tested (I've seen lots of them) and they are in fact shielded. Enjoy your day!
@@8lec_R -- The difference is, with the cheap cable the RCA plug(s) might not survive and you can just get yourself another cheap cable. With most fancy cables, the RCA jacks on the connected component might not survive and it's off to the $200/hour repair technician unless you're good at DIY and replacement parts procurement.
My Get-Rich Quick scheme: Pot this $2.00 cable in epoxy in an equivalent length of Garden Hose - you know, the attractive black stuff with crisscrossing white fibrous reinforcement - repackage in upscale packaging with one of those greeting card chips that plays Heavenly Choir music when the sucker - uh, discriminating Audiophile - opens the box. Charge only $2k per cable. Whaddayathink? 😜
I still have boxes of these things lol! Only complaint I ever had with them is the high shield resistance since over a few feet they start picking up audible hum. Some don't even have that, just a second conductor, but I digress. I do miss RadioShack, tho. My last few spools of their branded wire just ran out. Still have many spools of their 60/40 solder. Cant go wrong with that.
I kinda wish they were tested for interference from external EMF/RF to see how cable performance would be like. I recently bought some monoprice RCA's that seem to be pretty susceptible to pops and ticks from my phone being physically too close to them.
I knew it! Thanks for settling this once and for all. The scope doesn’t lie. I’ll pay a couple of bucks extra for a nicer looking, better feeling cable, but I ain’t buying all that improved performance crap. I could never hear a difference myself. Nobody wants cheap wires connected to nice gear, but people have gone nuts with this cable stuff. Another great little video!
How many here has more than 1 RCA cables and swear can hear differences between those please give a thumbs up. I have 4 sets of cheap RCA; 1 Generic cable i bought in electronic stores, 1 custom canare cable, 1 amazon cable and 1 mogami cable. I know exactly how these cables sound in my system, they are different. Not to say one is better than another, they are just different in the way they deliver highs, mids and lows. I'm not sure there are differences with speaker cables as i have tried some and found no difference (unless its a very poorly made cable) but i am very certain there are differences concerning RCAs
Normally I'd be the first person to highlight the "audiofool" bs relating to cables but in this case I'm not sure i agree 100% with the video. Back in the late 90s i used to make my own interconnects using some reasonably priced "silver" RCA cable. I could definitely hear a difference compared to a generic thin cable like the one you have there. I guess i need to repeat that experiment with my older ears! 😂
I still use a few of the cheap RCA cables that came with equipment in the 90s and they are actually better shielded than some of the cables on Amazon from random Chinese companies. I had to toss a couple of cables I bought recently because they would hum if close to other equipment. The old 90's freebies just work with no interference even though they look thin and cheap compared to the thicker braided ones I bought.
Some time ago I cut one of those cheap RCA cables and was surprised to see a bunch of three thin "shielding" wires running along the central insulated wire. So the "shielding" wasn't shielding anything. Basically it was a zip cord trying to look like a coaxial cable from the outside.
Luckily what we care about bleeding into the cable is very low frequencies. If we used them for high frequency applications, they would be horrid but we are not.
@@AudioScienceReview I agree. As far as I know, using a twisted pair would be more effective than shielding for audio in environments with AC mains interference. Have you ever done any interference tests on a longer unbalanced cable vs twisted pair cable? I'm just curious...
Hi Mr. Amir, these reviews of yours are really accolades of assurance, and based on which I make quite a few of my purchase decisions. BUT when I came across your channel, It was kinda intimidating to understand the series of tests you conduct. I saw another video where you explained them and now I feel right at home. Point is you might make a video separately explaining the tests and might put that video link in the description, so people may refer to it rather giving up to the technicalities. you're making an awesome job here... thank you
Hi Amir, could you please make a video testing cables in a situation that does affect the measurements drastically for educational purposes? Say very long lengths of audio cables, or cables with very high capacitance and DC resistance. Would be nice to see the characteristics that actually affect the measurements for a change.
God damn that's a good one 😂. Can't believe I used to scam people at Magnolia with these. They'd buy a 10k system and $4k worth of fraudioquest. I feel so scummy now that I'm scientifically literate.
But Amir, my $1000.00 interconnects have allowed me to see the smoke between the artists in the sound stage hologram that they throw. It's proven science. -😏
Gotta love how the audiophools can't resist watching Amir's videos just to try tell him he's wrong, after all their ears are 1000's of years older than his test gear. That's why NASA has people listen to their rocket engines instead of using test instrumentation, so much more sophisticated and why hospitals have given up on MRI machines and just listen to your chest instead. So much more resolving.
Some engineers do use their ear to hear abnormality. I used to work at ship engine room, you will be surprise some engineer can pickup abnormality with all the noise from engine, pump and machinery, before any damage will be introduced. Sonar worker need to hear beside looking at the screen. Some doctor can listen to your heart beat and guess the rate before looking at screen. Plus audio engineer have to figure out at 0.1dB to make decision.
I have done blind A/B for fun with this kind of cables over 30 yrs ago multiple times with friends. I did 10/10 guess EVERY time. If someone does not hear that he is D E A F. The fact that we don't see the measurements difference means that we still don't know, understand and measure everything.
You was lucky because It's not bad cable. I have an old cable that looks similar with great sound. After a long search I found new cheap cables with similar plugs, Hama 205085 and Goobay 50028. Surprisingly the Hama is band-limited, with rubber-bass and scratchy highs but Goobay is very clear, wideband and detailed.
Amir has tested a lot of expensive cables and so far every review that I have seen concludes that fancy cable = a waste of money. Maybe one day an exception will come along.
Reasons to avoid these are: 1. lack of shielding 2. poor contacts That doesn't mean interconnect should cost thousand(s) euros/dollars. I use QED performance 40i and there is huge difference in perfomance vs. generic cables especially for turntable connection. I find them as "sweet spot" in terms of price/performance. Everyone can afford them.
Just like genie from audioholics, this channels all about telling the viewers what they want to hear rather than what they need to hear. Nowadays, if one sits in front of a monitor long enough, one can actually call themselves an audiophile. Amazing 😊
As long as there’s nothing to interfere with the Signal your review is valid. Take something that could cause interference close to the possibly poorly shielded or unshielded cable and there can be issues. Nothing is always this simple. Doesn’t mean one has to spend a ton of money on cables but something times people have to think a little more than this.
Yes and as long as there is nothing stopping people from projecting a lack of understanding as knowledge, your criticism is valid. What you overlook is beauty of the work on this channel, it's not not C+ or B+ stuff. It's A++ rock solid evaluation, the kind you might get out authorities at MIT etc. Your idea "you have to think a little more" is just flailing, in fact YOU need to be a more attentive student and not overlook half the lesson then make insubstantial claims. To your point, Amir covered your concern about inference. There are no plausible sources of interference for a 3ft RCA cable like this is common use. Feel free to name one you can imagine inside a home next to a hifi. Something with a large electric motor comes to mind, but that machine would be shielded according to code.
I have done that test as well: www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/battle-of-rca-cables-mogami-amazon-monoprice.27871/ It is very hard to make a case for audible impact of such interference. Above cables are all low cost and none could be said to have picked up audible noise. Not to say that it can't happen but it is very hard scenario to make happen.
Great test! Yet there will still be audiophiles who have close to zero technical background, that will keep swearing that they hear differences in RCA interconnect cables...
Amirm, sorry if this comes the wrong way but there's a few people from your forum or community in general that regularly likes to cause disruption on the comments section of reputable reviewers' youtube videos, latest was for the Headphones Show. They're not up for an healthy discusion: they do simply copy-paste what they've seen on ASR forum without grasping their meaning, keep spamming about the word "transparency", keep chanting praises about their "state of the art" 100$ Topping Dx3 Pro+ and why anything else is e-waste. I respect your work, did for around a couple of years and thanks to it i've made some well-informed purchase decisions in the past, but now i sincerely think it's mandatory to do something about the behaviour of some hooligans from your community that do behave in a toxic, unrespectful way everywhere on the internet... please. These people (more like children) alone are tarnishing the image of ASR, which is starting to look more and more like a cult of some sorts, with the only effect of slowly making an enemy of it against all other people involved in audio: a simple "please behave" or "this is not how we do things here" would suffice. I felt MORTIFYIED at how they were talking against Andrew from Headphones.com / Headphones Show, you should look for yourself and see what i meant.
I'm so glad I found this channel.... Finally, another that thinks and works like I do, or maybe it's the other way around. We don't guess, we test and we prove everything and that is how we know! Also how we learn. You have better test equipment then me, but we're on the same page. You wouldn't by chance be in the Pennsylvania area, would ya? Cheers man 🍻.
If you use RCA cables on a turntable it can be very difficult to get it hum and noise free. I have tried and failed that on a DUAL TT with various cables (non of them high end). Not wanting to spend too much on a cable I made one my self from a Type N (= copper on both leads) Thermocouple extension cable. It worked like a charm. BTW these cables have Teflon dielectric to make them a bit more temperature resilient but they won't break the bank because they where never intended for audio, instead they are industrial and as such do their job effortless and fuss-less.
Good solution. In the old days all of the old turntables with RCA cables additionally had a grounding wire. The amplifiers had a “grounding lug” to connect the wire to. Otherwise you would get a 60 Hz hum. This was on tube amplifiers as well.
@@markfreedman2470 The name for this problem is a "ground loop" and is cause buy an alternating current (AC) flowing on the RCA cable shield which is used as the reference for the audio signal on the RCA center pin. As you stated a separate ground usually fixes the problem, but audio isolation transformers can also be used.
Perhaps one day the golden ear "audiophiles" from the usual magazines and websites will agree to a truly blind test of power cables, speaker cables and interconnects. Get them in a room with amps & speakers of their choosing and then let the blind testing begin. I'm guessing they will never agree to this sort of event, as it might hurt their ad revenue if they can't hear the difference. It sure would be fun to watch though..🤔
Powercables never heard a difference. Analoge speaker / interlinks can be day and night difference. Recently changed vd hul cs-122 for inakustik ls-1602 (thank feck, 2nd hand). Even a deaf person would hear the change. Quite literally, because a loud bass humm sounds like a contrabass now. No need for golden ears, seriously
@@CyberBeep_kenshi Have you ever wondered why people who make the kind of claim you do, fail to be able to pick the difference when they don't know which cable is which in blind testing? If you want or expect there to be a difference, you will likely hear a difference, even when there is no difference. That's why we use blind testing.
@@drumphil00 oh yes, and i am quite critical to say the least. I get all sorts of angry comments when i explain i.e. network cables cannot make a difference. Because of how network protocols work. Same for powercables in my experience and with explanations from here, 0 difference to me. But with my own experience, analogue speaker/interlinks make a huge difference. There is probably a whole list of cables you can't differentiate, but with i.e. the cables i mentioned it's absolutely the case. Also logical to me when one is 2.5 mm copper / silver and the other one 24 massive copper strands. The material is different, so there should be change. The build difference is quite extreme lol.... I'd love to see measurements on those 2, but it's a rather specific test of course.
@@CyberBeep_kenshi Lol, let me run the test, and a thousand bucks says you fail, in the absence of a faulty connector or damaged cable. Every time this has been tested with proper methodology, the answer has been the same. That's why it's so much fun to attend properly run blind test exercises, especially ones where people who rekon they can hear the difference in their own "blind" testing show up. Sad faces.
In the world of high speed digital electronics the length of a cable (or PCB trace) doesn't matter until it approaches around 1/6 the "Transition Electrical Length", or TEL. What really becomes a problem is signals that transition quickly, or the rise and fall time or the signal. Rise and fall times are usually close to symmetrical. TEL is calculated by multiplying the rise time by the velocity of propagation. In typical PCBs (Er ~ 4) the velocity of propagation is about 5.8 inches per second, or about 150 mm/s. Both controlled impedance PCB traces and coaxial cables are types of transmission lines. When the length of a PCB trace or cable approaches TEL/6 controlled impedance becomes important and the PCB trace or cable need to be engineered as transmission lines. A transmission line is used to control reflections which occur from impedance mismatches. Reflections decrease signal integrity and can cause jitter to increase in the best case and completely prevent the data from being received in the worst case. In a PCB the velocity of propagation is about 5.8 in/sec. This is a function of the speed of light and the effective dielectric constant of the PCB's fiberglass sheets (about 4.0 for typical PCBs). In coaxial cables, the dielectric can vary, but it usually some type of plastic like polyethylene (PE - common used in cutting boards and shopping bags) or polytetrafluoroethylene (PTFE/teflon - like in nonstick cookware). It can be a solid, a foam or it can be spirally wound so most of the space between the cable's center conductor and the shield is air. Some common cable you might have around the house is RG-6 for your cable TV. It has PE foam dielectric and a velocity of propagation of about 0.75 times the speed of light, or 8.9 inches per nanosecond. The RCA cable shown in the video probably uses PVC between the center conductor and shield, and has a velocity of propagation of 8.0 inches/nanosecond In analog audio the fastest rise time possible on a CD is a 1 / (44.1 kHz / 2) or 45 microseconds. So TEL/6 calculates to (45,000 * 8.0) / 6 = 60,000 inches, 5000 feet (nearly a mile) or 1521 meters. This assumes the output of the DAC has been low pass filtered with a -3 dB bandwidth of 22.05 kHz. Inside the actual player there are faster rise times as the digital EFM stream is read from the Redbook, converted to LPCM and fed into the DAC, but that all happens on the PCB (maybe even inside a single IC) where distances are much smaller and cable choice doesn't matter. In digital audio, I don't know if it is as well defined, but lets assume we need 10x the bandwidth of the signal to accurately reproduce the edges of the square waves. This is the assumption I use for square waves in PCBs. Let's also assume the cable is 75 ohm impedance with solid PE dielectric (7.8 inches/ns). Assuming a digital PCM stream of 44.1 KHz * 16 bits per sample we have: 44.1 kHz * 16 bits * 2 channels = 1.4112 Mbps (should look familiar). We will need a bandwidth of 10x the bit rate to transfer the data properly using a single ended square wave, or 14.112 MHz. This implies a rise time of 70.9 ns. TEL/6 in our 75 ohm PE dielectric coax becomes 92 inches or 2.3 meters. We are nearing the threshold where controlled impedance starts to matter in terms of typical cable length. I would (and have) use a 75 ohm cable in this case. I saw elsewhere on the web someone measured the rise time of a PCM stream on a digital audio output at 25 ns which is about 3x faster and TEL/6 would decrease by 3x as similarly. They had some other conclusions about some cables being too short, but I don't know how they came to that conclusion and of course there was no citation. We could do something crazy like encode the audio with 24 bits at 192 kHz. Running the numbers TEL/6 in solid PE coax is 14.1 inches. Definitely need a 75 ohm cable here for lengths of 1-2 meters. However, if we just use 75 ohm coax (with 75 ohm terminated drivers and receivers, i.e "impedance matching"), then it doesn't matter. Reflections are controlled and all that you need to worry about is losses. I'll spare the details, but the way to figure this out is to calculate a link budget based on the transmission amplitude and the receiver sensitivity, taking into account losses (copper losses, dielectric losses) and noise. Suffice it to say it doesn't matter over distances of 1-2 meters at these frequencies. When I hooked my CD transport (a Blu-ray payer) to my AVR I used a single coax from a component video cable set. These were used before digital video cable standards like HDMI evolved and they consist of a set of three cables that carried the color and sync information in the analog domain. Each cable is 75 ohms. I removed a single coax cable from the set of three. It doens't matter that it is for video, the electrons don't care. I had this cable laying around and it was effectively free. My local Hi-fi shop wanted $69.99 USD for their least expensive coaxial digital audio cable. I've seen 1 or 1.5 meter cables going for hundreds of US dollars which is absolutely absurd. Even 70 USD is nuts. If you think you hear a difference, go ahead and spend your money. I'd rather invest my money elsewhere.
Watching this video takes me back many decades to the late Peter Aczel’s 10 biggest lies in audio article in the long defunct magazine known as The Audio Critic. One of the top ten was the insanely priced audio cable scam. That along with not falling for “tweaks” like magic pucks and shakti stones have enabled people like me with no electrical engineering experience to save their hard earned money and spend it on buying more music. I know that the golden ears hucksters at Audioquest with their insanely priced Mythos cables would not be fans of this video
Although I'm against audiophile bs about magic cable parameters, I can't agree with this one. I used 1m long RCA cables provided with my Asus Xonar sound card plugged into an external headphone amplifier. When I bought 20$ pair of RCA cables the difference was noticeable right away. I could switch between cables and point out details that were missing with "generic" cable. After cutting it, I saw only a pair of hair thick wires, no coating and no shielding. Dirt cheap cables are lottery and perhaps you just got lucky with this one but after my experience I wouldn't risk dead cheap cables anymore.
You’ve just made the people who live and die by specs run to the “Well, not everything that can be heard can be tested” corner. Or, they will disregard this test as a clever ploy for you to sell Recoton cables at $500 each as “Vintage Audiophile” cables because you’ve bought up all of the leftover supply.
I'd say that it is quite fair to say that not everything that we can hear can be tested. For example, the tests in this video don't say anything about soundstage. I assume you agree soundstage is a thing. What if this cable decreases soundstage? I'm not saying that it does btw
Great video Amir, thanks a lot. Quick question though, would cheap RCA cables be more susceptible to interference noise from e.g. power cables, power transformers that are close by? In other words, could the shielding be (far) worse?
Amir, If I send you a few cable to test, would you make a video on it? I have audioquest and recently tried wireworld Oasis 8. And monoprice. Might you be willing to perform your objective tests and then also perform listening tests and tell me what you think? That would be very cool if you were open to that. No exaggeration, you are my new favorite reviewer. Didn’t know about your channel until today. I greatly appreciate your objectivity, candor and direct approach to it all. Thank you.
All cables made from copper even silver oxidise over time regardless of cost, but not all cables are made equally. OxygenFreeNitrogen does not exist soon as its made it starts to oxidise. some oxidise quicker due to manufacturing process. Pure Gold is the only material that does not oxidise (much) But completely agree with length of cable effects the resistance and pickup!
Oxidation is really only an issue on the terminations, which are usually gold-plated even on budget cables (these days, at least). The outside of the actual cable getting oxidized is pretty much irrelevant, I'd say.
There can be a case made for better shielding to keep RF and EM energy out of the signal but other than that, cheap ones are fine, just don't run them near the 50/60 hz stuff...
I dont appreaciate the hostility in these comments. I just say I wish people get to listen to a system in where the cable start to make a difference (doesnt have to be a >10k$ system). I have a/b tested some bulk rca vs. Zu rcas and even the half deaf neighbour could spot which was better. There is something that these tests do not reveal. All the best. -S
Thank you Amir for your honesty and integrity when it comes to everything you do with regards to giving me,the consumer something to kick myself in the but for falling for the hype. I appreciate you immensely! Please don’t ever stop. David
Just spent about $200 on an RCA cable for my new Technics SL1200GR turntable.... The one place in a system where a cable actually makes a difference is the tonearm RCA cable due to the super low voltage coming through it. The resulting sound is easily changed by different materials and construction. Small differences are amplified by huge amounts by the phono preamp and as a result can be easily heard.
RCA cables are the only cables where I notice a difference in performance between dirt cheap and slightly-less dirt cheap. But, the performance I notice is purely down to fitment. Some cables just don't make a solid connection. Same with some garbage tier HDMI cables.
I've had some of these very thin freebie cables develop problems around the connector where moving it slightly caused the signal to cut out or it would induce some noise into the output. Not all freebie RCA's are equal either - some are clearly better made than others - the ones I don't like seem almost hair thin... I don't object to spending a reasonable amount on a well made cable that's going to last and not play up. It's when it's taken to absurd levels, both in terms of prices and fantastical claims that it becomes silly, IMHO. Away from RCA connections, I've had particular problems with sub-standard USB 3.x cables which presented as frequent disconnects during heavy file transfers to external HDD's - the problem resolved once I changed the cable.
i will say i have had some of those go bad if you're constantly plugging/unplugging, being that the wire in them is so thin, but you will know it as soon as you fire things up and you get a hum. but other than that they're fine. i would get next step up for longer runs if you need them, but still no need on spending more than like $20 on an rca cable. i worked for a high end a/v company for a while and they were buying everything from monoprice. that's actually how i found out monoprice was a thing.
Amir, are you ok? It’s been awhile since you’ve done a review. It’s not like you to be gone so long. Hope it isn’t anything bad! Stay safe my mates!😊👍🏻😁🛠
I think you need to explain as well how the impedance of the cable plays a part when between certain equipment. For example between pre amp and power amplifier, how it affects frequency response depending on input and output impedance mismatch.
Thanks. Just goes on to reinforce my suggestions to others that any half decent cable is more than good enough to audiophile listening. Don't spend loads of money to buy marketing hype ;)
The major difference in RCA cables is not how they pass signals, but how they shield from external noise and how they couple the system grounds together. Any junky cable can pass 20KHz 6' without distortion. Put the cheap RCA cable parallel to an AC power cord to see the difference: the cheap one will have big 50/60Hz pickup. And it is a function of the driver/source impedance: Low is good, 300 ohms not so good. Then try the power line test with a nicer $20+ cable. The cheap cable has poor shielding coverage, typically 90% or less. The better cable will have multiple shields, typically copper braid + foil for 100% shielding. Measuring the DC resistance of the shield is also a good test: Low (~50 mOhms for 6') is good. 100-500 mOhms or more is bad.
I have a $450 Pre amp and a $1000 amp. In neither can you "upgrade" to a $$ power cord. The connections on the equipment don't allow it. I can only find $10 replacements. These are two well respected audio companies. Are their designers and engineers trying to tell me something ?
Audio cable do make a difference . I recently changed to Mogami interconnects . I changed one channel and I ask my wife dowsnshe hears a difference . She picked the Mogami . Same with Micca speaker wires.
Are you able to replicate a test simulating single-ended cables in differential inputs and vice versa to see if there’s any noticeable differences? Lots of talk about how they each reject noise differently and that you shouldn’t mix them, but I also hear that it doesn’t really matter. I’d love to see actual data confirming one way or the other
Sure. Now connect it to a full system or a Home Theatre receiver with a bunch of other cables around, including power cables and and video cables (better yet, try one of the sh*t video cables just like those interconnects) and see what happens. You will get noise as they DO act like an antenna, pulling-in RF interference that will ruin your sound, especially in the high frequencies.
There's people who do their testing from sitting in front of a monitor, and there's people who do their testing from using the things on the side of the head. I think know which when you fall on. When listening, I also prefer not to put up with the faint background signal noise (noise floor) One should try pressing pause or mute, and from the MLP, if one is unable to differentiate whether the systems are on or off that's telling you, your cables are crap. When friends or guests come around rather than showing them how loud the system goes, I prefer to press pause/mute and show them how quiet it goes. None of them gets it, of course 😂 After auditioning three separate AVR's, the same ambient sound of the room was still present! It was only on the third occasion when I finally purchased shielded cables that the noise floor in my small room finally came down to satisfactory levels. Cables often act as antennas for attracting RF, and the longer the cable, the better the antenna. Probably explains why when I used to disconnect my heights and surrounds within 10 minutes, the faint background signal noise (RF/EMI) within my small room used to disappear/dissipate.
Yet another reason that I can spot an audio snob is when he spends over ~$20 on an audio cable and says he can hear the difference! As long as the connectors are gold plated for contact quality, and the cable is durable, they are excellent and will perform just as well as $100+ cables with OFC and Litz wire! What a ripoff these companies are!
But but but, Amir, you need to measure them with ANALOGUE gear and a vinyl source, with Michael Fremer as a calibrated transducer; his choice adjectives telling it as it is. If Bob Ludwig doesn't live in your basement, how can you even begin to know about "soundstage" and "dynamics" ? Is your cheap AudioPrecision kit made by Maselec and your IM signal played back at 30 ips on a custom Studer A80 ? No. So you're not qualified to talk about audio. Stick with computer start sounds. Everyone who reads Stereophile, knows that unless your cable is forged by Cardas out of a drawn ingot of oxygen-free silver, you'll never hear music as nature intended.
I’m curious though. Did you run this test around other signal/other power cables? I’m a compete newb to all this… does having other cables touching these affect anything?
The only thing I need in cables is isolation. I had a loop noise in my past crowded hifi system and I got crazy before understanding it was a thiny cables fault. Note that the radio dab thay connected to the integrated amp was turned off during the loop noise.
I do wonder why none of the "reviewers" ever seem to look into why they might have heard a difference? It's annoying when they say "oh if you can't hear a difference your system isn't good enough" I use short cables like those with my STAX. I can hear the differences between how songs are mixed and mastered even on the same album just fine. More expensive cables would just be less money in my pocket.
I see no value in them. If you play a 10 kHz square wave from a CD, it will almost look like a sine wave! The reason is that only its second harmonic is captured in CD format. Everything above that cannot exist and as a result, such a signal is "illegal" content. There was a time when amplifiers had really low bandwidth so people did these kinds of slew tests and such. Today that is not an issue and as I just explained, our sources are highly bandwidth limited (as is our ear). The other reason square wave test was used was because you could use any oscilloscope to analyze it to indirectly assess other factors such as low or high frequency bandwidth limits. I use a direct method with an audio analyzer to detect that at far higher resolution (frequency response) so that is not of value either.
Ha! I love this one. While I would prefer to buy something more durable, it's awesome to see such a "horrible" set of cables do so well as audiophools will claim to hear the difference between $300 and $1000 cables. Yes, much longer cables may have parasitic losses that do become relevant, but the companies selling ultra-premium cables are charlatans.
The long RCA cables that actually do work well include the Petra brand long run RCA cables sold in automotive retailers.
Sadly you are the one spreading false cable information. I just scientifically reviewed a review about cables and the proof is undeniable: czcams.com/video/TKQJExh0ND0/video.html
What?? This mans ScIeNcE is no match for an audiophiles ability to hear the blacker blacks and far superior soundstage that can only be had with a 20k set of RCA cables.
They're fraudsters
@@Ma77F Makes you wonder if audiophiles realize they could buy an actual *sound stage* for what they are paying for these cables
50 years ago, nobody bought their own cables because every stereo component came with plenty of cables, and they worked just fine. The only problem I ever came across was with the RCA connectors themselves--some didn't make good contact, and would occasionally "buzzed" because they came loose. For me, the solution was pro gear with XLR or at least TRS connectors, those always connect snugly and never buzz.
Pro audio gear typically uses 3-conductor shielded twisted pair cable for microphone level and longer cable runs, terminated by an op-amp or transformer. But for shorter runs, 2-conductor coax not unlike what is used for home stereo is also used. And when you work with musicians, guitar players will sometimes "borrow" your audio cables. The problem with guitar players is that their hi-Z cables used to connect the guitar to the amplifier have the exact same 1/4" TS connectors that they use to connect the amplifiers to their speakers. I've seen guitars hooked up using unshielded speaker cable, and speaker cabinets connected to amps using shielded guitar cable. And I've had A2s that have "borrowed back" the wrong cables too. Surprisingly it doesn't make that much difference, as long as there's a complete circuit. Inexpensive home stereos even had speaker cables with RCA terminations, and people would use them to connect line level components with no issues.
I’ve been into audio systems since the mid 70’s wish I had all the money back I’ve wasted on cabling and speaker wire over the years. Currently using 16awg speaker wire and $5 interconnects. Sound is awesome.
That’s what I’m doing also.
For short runs I use 18awg old belden PA speaker cable that I got for free. Longer runs I use inexpensive 16awg or 14awg
I think for short RCA cables even if was not made of copper wire and the resistance was not good, it probably won’t affect the sound quality that the human ear can detect
In automotive audio, it is usually better to have better shielding and as a result, if you go to Walmart's automotive department or an auto parts store, they have decently priced but well shielded RCA cables. The better shielding is recommended for coax digital audio hookups as well. A lot of well shielded RCA cables can also be found in musical instrument/DJ audio stores as well.
Amir is the super hero that abused and innocent audio consumers need. Absolute LEGEND.
I can just see Amir head super imposed on Superman with 'aSr' on his chest.
I also have the Amazon basics cable, I think the trick is to pay just enough for decent build quality and sheilding.
I’ve been in Audio for the last 60 years (prior to the cable insanity era) and I always knew that the so called crappy cables were perfectly fine. I guess because I couldn’t hear the difference I assumed they were good. It’s nice to know You’ve vindicated my judgment. Thank you. Kudos to you! Interestingly enough, I visited Grammy award winning recording studios 18 years ago and guess what? They didn’t give a rat’s ass which cables they used in the signal chain, as long as they worked.
Look inside "top shelf" amps etc. Is twisted pairs of hookup cable :)
I agree the crappy cables sound amazing. The issue is that if you are connecting and disconnecting, they are more prone to break. But other than that, they are great
That was fun, with at least 10 educational technical points, 4 or so gentle & amused chides of critics, and a useful ironclad conclusion.
Marvelous observation !
Finally i found someone that has the right tools to prove what i've ever suspected. Great job!
Have been waiting too for someone with an AP device to do this; result was as expected.
I've always used inexpensive cables in my home and PA (excepting the 25-50ft 4 conductor speaker cables needed in some venues - that's a fair amount of copper and they need to withstand heavy use and abuse + pass signals in the kW's).
At some point I want to switch all my RCA's to Belden wire but that's only cause they have cool colors 😄
Good to know they measure well but how is the soundstage? Instrument separation? Microdetail? Punch and slam? These are the important questions to answer when evaluating cables. 🤣
I can assure you these cables have a great laxative effect
More importantly, was the wife impressed?
Yes, we must know if the cheap cables create haze in the AUDIO IMAGE. Hee hee hee ha ha.
@@NeverTalkToCops1 have you heard systems which produce a holographic stereo image? can you distinguish between good and bad recordings on your system?
let me guess: you never finished high school
Fantastic video!
Excellent review style and communication skills. No nonsense. Just the facts!
I finally found a reviewer I can stand.
I like audioholics but he’s a bit hard to follow sometimes. What a great service Amir is providing.
If Audioquest relabeled those, they could charge $2000 from their fan base.
I would like to see a shielded cable vs the cable tested in this video, but among the rats nest and power cords! That represents 99.9% of our situations.
Yes, that would be a real world test and good to know. The cheap ones fall apart and not very durable and then they don't connect and have a loose, I make my own w beldon RG5 20awg solid copper and tinned copper shield and Aluminum foil
There he goes again! Spoiling the enjoyment of music with facts and science! Great to see the analysis on such an essential, and yet basic component of nearly all setups. I enjoyed the added note of "feel free to refer them to this review".
So many things in the "audiophile" world are blatant ripoffs that I have to type "audiophile" in quotes because it's hard to take the whole thing seriously.
Audiophoolery is only loosely correlated to high fidelity audio. It's about the bling!
audioperves
2 tubes in a row ... again most appreciated learning experience ( sharing is believing !! ) Love from up north big boss Amir :)
I would love for you to make a "bird's nest" test, if you look behind an audio system do both power, interconnects and speaker cables run in parallel and across each others. How much of this do in fact gets picked up, how much gets amplified or send directly to the speakers? How much does your small SMPS, your light fixtures, refrigerator and other things in reality influence the sound?
Electronic engineers do spend a lot of time, knowledge and energy to avoid EMI and other types of noise.
To simulate magnetic induction, I use an AC transformer and have to literally touch the RCA cable and align it the right way to get some to induce. Even then, what is induced is very low in amplitude and hence inaudible. See tests here: www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/battle-of-rca-cables-mogami-amazon-monoprice.27871/
So I don't see the rats nest being a factor. Running a wire parallel to power line for many feet may do it though.
@@AudioScienceReview I like you, it's amazing how you always take you time to reply to comments, even the once from less knowledge people like me.
I had a wrong idea of unshielded cables delivering a minute signal that men got amplified maybe 30 times, that this signal could maybe make the speaker driver vibrate a bit, all the time.
I have seen videos on how, even standing near an electronic sensitive test, can kick everything off balance. :-)
Thanks Amir, you are the only audio review worth listening to. I saw a big name audio youtuber say that if you use thin cables the music sounds "thin" too! Honestly, that is so annoying when you are looking for good advice.
That parallels the widespread notion the vacuum tube audio gear sounds "warm," which IMO is psychologically derived from the literally warm glow of the "valves" themselves.
Love the quickie reviews. Getting to the point is very helpful
A cable review is not completely unless you wax poetic about those "liquid chocolately mids".
Holographic soundstage
Or is that tube amps?…
Why I didn't find you 30 years ago...? 😒 You are the best guy in audio world ever!!!!! Liars hate you, believers maybe too, but rest of us love you! 🤓
The main issues I have are: Not reliable if plugged and unplugged a lot, poor shielding, and questionable connection. BUT, unlike a lot of "audiophile" cables, they won't break your RCA jacks when unplugging them. And for short runs that are not unplugged often, they're usually just fine.
Yea unless you are as clumsy as me and tend to knock stuff over very often, I doubt these will survive that 🤣
Those would be main non-issues would they not? 99% of people do not unplug RCA cables "a lot" and you have no evidence they'd fail if that were the case. Shielding as the man told you is of no matter in this length. Inherent in the review is that the connection is absolutely fine unless connection means something to you having nothing to do with the purpose of the device. The cable was 3 ft and Amir addressed longer lengths. You got nothing, not even a reason for a suspicion! What you should question is yourself!
@@johnsmith1474 Wow. I guess those 45 years as an audio repair tech did me no good in choosing audio cables? Besides, I did more or less agree with him. I merely added my own personal experience to the discussion. In fact, the last sentence in my original post made it plain that I generally agreed with Amir's findings. But that's cool. It's ok for you to disagree with me. I can't force you to be right. As for my "reason for suspicion," it's those four-and-a-half decades of experience. And I question myself daily. Perhaps more than I should.
By the way, lots of folks swap components in their systems regularly. Try one preamp and one power amp together, then try the same preamp with another power amp, etc. This does entail a lot of plugging and unplugging. And I've diagnosed many a system problem down to a bad cable over the years. I've also fixed many a component whose RCA jacks were broken because they used excessively tight-fitting "audiophile" cables that needed so much force to disconnect that the user either ripped the ground sleeve off the RCA jack or broke the solder connections on the board the jacks were mounted to. This happens more than you might think. And I will disagree with Amir slightly about shielding, because some cheap cables sold on Amazon today are not actually shielded, even when they say they are. They're just two thin wires running under the jacket, although I am quite familiar with the cable he tested (I've seen lots of them) and they are in fact shielded. Enjoy your day!
@@8lec_R -- The difference is, with the cheap cable the RCA plug(s) might not survive and you can just get yourself another cheap cable. With most fancy cables, the RCA jacks on the connected component might not survive and it's off to the $200/hour repair technician unless you're good at DIY and replacement parts procurement.
@@ScottGrammer - Apparently not.
My Get-Rich Quick scheme: Pot this $2.00 cable in epoxy in an equivalent length of Garden Hose - you know, the attractive black stuff with crisscrossing white fibrous reinforcement - repackage in upscale packaging with one of those greeting card chips that plays Heavenly Choir music when the sucker - uh, discriminating Audiophile - opens the box. Charge only $2k per cable. Whaddayathink?
😜
it sounds like a good way to lose your shirt.
Brrrrillliant!
I still have boxes of these things lol! Only complaint I ever had with them is the high shield resistance since over a few feet they start picking up audible hum. Some don't even have that, just a second conductor, but I digress. I do miss RadioShack, tho. My last few spools of their branded wire just ran out. Still have many spools of their 60/40 solder. Cant go wrong with that.
I kinda wish they were tested for interference from external EMF/RF to see how cable performance would be like. I recently bought some monoprice RCA's that seem to be pretty susceptible to pops and ticks from my phone being physically too close to them.
I knew it! Thanks for settling this once and for all. The scope doesn’t lie. I’ll pay a couple of bucks extra for a nicer looking, better feeling cable, but I ain’t buying all that improved performance crap. I could never hear a difference myself. Nobody wants cheap wires connected to nice gear, but people have gone nuts with this cable stuff. Another great little video!
I've found ~20-30e to be a sweet spot for durable and well-made (enough) RCA cables.
How many here has more than 1 RCA cables and swear can hear differences between those please give a thumbs up.
I have 4 sets of cheap RCA; 1 Generic cable i bought in electronic stores, 1 custom canare cable, 1 amazon cable and 1 mogami cable. I know exactly how these cables sound in my system, they are different. Not to say one is better than another, they are just different in the way they deliver highs, mids and lows.
I'm not sure there are differences with speaker cables as i have tried some and found no difference (unless its a very poorly made cable) but i am very certain there are differences concerning RCAs
Normally I'd be the first person to highlight the "audiofool" bs relating to cables but in this case I'm not sure i agree 100% with the video. Back in the late 90s i used to make my own interconnects using some reasonably priced "silver" RCA cable. I could definitely hear a difference compared to a generic thin cable like the one you have there. I guess i need to repeat that experiment with my older ears! 😂
Love your work, knowledge and site, where have you been all my life. Great stuff keep the good videos coming..!!!
Glad to hear this. I've been using a lot of cheap amazon basics interconnects and wires and never noticed an issue.
I still use a few of the cheap RCA cables that came with equipment in the 90s and they are actually better shielded than some of the cables on Amazon from random Chinese companies. I had to toss a couple of cables I bought recently because they would hum if close to other equipment. The old 90's freebies just work with no interference even though they look thin and cheap compared to the thicker braided ones I bought.
Some time ago I cut one of those cheap RCA cables and was surprised to see a bunch of three thin "shielding" wires running along the central insulated wire. So the "shielding" wasn't shielding anything. Basically it was a zip cord trying to look like a coaxial cable from the outside.
Luckily what we care about bleeding into the cable is very low frequencies. If we used them for high frequency applications, they would be horrid but we are not.
Very common. More shielding wires more stiff and adding cost. That goes to shielding foils too.
@@AudioScienceReview I agree. As far as I know, using a twisted pair would be more effective than shielding for audio in environments with AC mains interference. Have you ever done any interference tests on a longer unbalanced cable vs twisted pair cable? I'm just curious...
But I need thick cables! Girth matters! 🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣
or at least MORE insulating jacket! NOT more OFC Litz copper wire...
Hi Mr. Amir, these reviews of yours are really accolades of assurance, and based on which I make quite a few of my purchase decisions. BUT when I came across your channel, It was kinda intimidating to understand the series of tests you conduct. I saw another video where you explained them and now I feel right at home.
Point is you might make a video separately explaining the tests and might put that video link in the description, so people may refer to it rather giving up to the technicalities.
you're making an awesome job here... thank you
Hi Amir, could you please make a video testing cables in a situation that does affect the measurements drastically for educational purposes? Say very long lengths of audio cables, or cables with very high capacitance and DC resistance. Would be nice to see the characteristics that actually affect the measurements for a change.
Can we just call them Fraudioquest?
God damn that's a good one 😂. Can't believe I used to scam people at Magnolia with these. They'd buy a 10k system and $4k worth of fraudioquest. I feel so scummy now that I'm scientifically literate.
exactly what I need! thx and keep it on! you became my first subscription on youtube in 20 years :)
What people don't realise is that the conductors ultimately connect to thin copper , not precious metal tracks on the pcb
Spot on! I've met Audiofools who bought $400 cables. Insane!
But Amir, my $1000.00 interconnects have allowed me to see the smoke between the artists in the sound stage hologram that they throw. It's proven science.
-😏
Gotta love how the audiophools can't resist watching Amir's videos just to try tell him he's wrong, after all their ears are 1000's of years older than his test gear. That's why NASA has people listen to their rocket engines instead of using test instrumentation, so much more sophisticated and why hospitals have given up on MRI machines and just listen to your chest instead. So much more resolving.
1000 of years older. Wtf is that for a comparison. Given up on mri , you must be from.anoher planet or being sarcastic
Some engineers do use their ear to hear abnormality. I used to work at ship engine room, you will be surprise some engineer can pickup abnormality with all the noise from engine, pump and machinery, before any damage will be introduced. Sonar worker need to hear beside looking at the screen. Some doctor can listen to your heart beat and guess the rate before looking at screen. Plus audio engineer have to figure out at 0.1dB to make decision.
I have done blind A/B for fun with this kind of cables over 30 yrs ago multiple times with friends. I did 10/10 guess EVERY time. If someone does not hear that he is D E A F. The fact that we don't see the measurements difference means that we still don't know, understand and measure everything.
You was lucky because It's not bad cable. I have an old cable that looks similar with great sound. After a long search I found new cheap cables with similar plugs, Hama 205085 and Goobay 50028. Surprisingly the Hama is band-limited, with rubber-bass and scratchy highs but Goobay is very clear, wideband and detailed.
Amir has tested a lot of expensive cables and so far every review that I have seen concludes that fancy cable = a waste of money. Maybe one day an exception will come along.
Reasons to avoid these are:
1. lack of shielding
2. poor contacts
That doesn't mean interconnect should cost thousand(s) euros/dollars.
I use QED performance 40i and there is huge difference in perfomance vs. generic cables especially for turntable connection. I find them as "sweet spot" in terms of price/performance.
Everyone can afford them.
Just like genie from audioholics, this channels all about telling the viewers what they want to hear rather than what they need to hear.
Nowadays, if one sits in front of a monitor long enough, one can actually call themselves an audiophile. Amazing 😊
As long as there’s nothing to interfere with the Signal your review is valid. Take something that could cause interference close to the possibly poorly shielded or unshielded cable and there can be issues. Nothing is always this simple. Doesn’t mean one has to spend a ton of money on cables but something times people have to think a little more than this.
Yes and as long as there is nothing stopping people from projecting a lack of understanding as knowledge, your criticism is valid.
What you overlook is beauty of the work on this channel, it's not not C+ or B+ stuff. It's A++ rock solid evaluation, the kind you might get out authorities at MIT etc. Your idea "you have to think a little more" is just flailing, in fact YOU need to be a more attentive student and not overlook half the lesson then make insubstantial claims. To your point, Amir covered your concern about inference. There are no plausible sources of interference for a 3ft RCA cable like this is common use. Feel free to name one you can imagine inside a home next to a hifi. Something with a large electric motor comes to mind, but that machine would be shielded according to code.
I have done that test as well: www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/battle-of-rca-cables-mogami-amazon-monoprice.27871/
It is very hard to make a case for audible impact of such interference. Above cables are all low cost and none could be said to have picked up audible noise. Not to say that it can't happen but it is very hard scenario to make happen.
Great test! Yet there will still be audiophiles who have close to zero technical background, that will keep swearing that they hear differences in RCA interconnect cables...
Amirm, sorry if this comes the wrong way but there's a few people from your forum or community in general that regularly likes to cause disruption on the comments section of reputable reviewers' youtube videos, latest was for the Headphones Show.
They're not up for an healthy discusion: they do simply copy-paste what they've seen on ASR forum without grasping their meaning, keep spamming about the word "transparency", keep chanting praises about their "state of the art" 100$ Topping Dx3 Pro+ and why anything else is e-waste.
I respect your work, did for around a couple of years and thanks to it i've made some well-informed purchase decisions in the past, but now i sincerely think it's mandatory to do something about the behaviour of some hooligans from your community that do behave in a toxic, unrespectful way everywhere on the internet... please.
These people (more like children) alone are tarnishing the image of ASR, which is starting to look more and more like a cult of some sorts, with the only effect of slowly making an enemy of it against all other people involved in audio: a simple "please behave" or "this is not how we do things here" would suffice.
I felt MORTIFYIED at how they were talking against Andrew from Headphones.com / Headphones Show, you should look for yourself and see what i meant.
I'm so glad I found this channel.... Finally, another that thinks and works like I do, or maybe it's the other way around. We don't guess, we test and we prove everything and that is how we know! Also how we learn. You have better test equipment then me, but we're on the same page. You wouldn't by chance be in the Pennsylvania area, would ya? Cheers man 🍻.
Thank you for the science once again. Audiophiles..... there's one born every minute.
If you use RCA cables on a turntable it can be very difficult to get it hum and noise free. I have tried and failed that on a DUAL TT with various cables (non of them high end).
Not wanting to spend too much on a cable I made one my self from a Type N (= copper on both leads) Thermocouple extension cable. It worked like a charm. BTW these cables have Teflon dielectric to make them a bit more temperature resilient but they won't break the bank because they where never intended for audio, instead they are industrial and as such do their job effortless and fuss-less.
Good solution. In the old days all of the old turntables with RCA cables additionally had a grounding wire. The amplifiers had a “grounding lug” to connect the wire to. Otherwise you would get a 60 Hz hum. This was on tube amplifiers as well.
@@markfreedman2470 The name for this problem is a "ground loop" and is cause buy an alternating current (AC) flowing on the RCA cable shield which is used as the reference for the audio signal on the RCA center pin. As you stated a separate ground usually fixes the problem, but audio isolation transformers can also be used.
Awesome! Thanks for this review - much as I expected.
Perhaps one day the golden ear "audiophiles" from the usual magazines and websites will agree to a truly blind test of power cables, speaker cables and interconnects. Get them in a room with amps & speakers of their choosing and then let the blind testing begin. I'm guessing they will never agree to this sort of event, as it might hurt their ad revenue if they can't hear the difference. It sure would be fun to watch though..🤔
Powercables never heard a difference. Analoge speaker / interlinks can be day and night difference. Recently changed vd hul cs-122 for inakustik ls-1602 (thank feck, 2nd hand). Even a deaf person would hear the change. Quite literally, because a loud bass humm sounds like a contrabass now.
No need for golden ears, seriously
@@CyberBeep_kenshi Have you ever wondered why people who make the kind of claim you do, fail to be able to pick the difference when they don't know which cable is which in blind testing? If you want or expect there to be a difference, you will likely hear a difference, even when there is no difference. That's why we use blind testing.
@@drumphil00 oh yes, and i am quite critical to say the least. I get all sorts of angry comments when i explain i.e. network cables cannot make a difference. Because of how network protocols work. Same for powercables in my experience and with explanations from here, 0 difference to me.
But with my own experience, analogue speaker/interlinks make a huge difference. There is probably a whole list of cables you can't differentiate, but with i.e. the cables i mentioned it's absolutely the case. Also logical to me when one is 2.5 mm copper / silver and the other one 24 massive copper strands. The material is different, so there should be change. The build difference is quite extreme lol....
I'd love to see measurements on those 2, but it's a rather specific test of course.
@@drumphil00 and yes, i blind tested them :-)
@@CyberBeep_kenshi Lol, let me run the test, and a thousand bucks says you fail, in the absence of a faulty connector or damaged cable. Every time this has been tested with proper methodology, the answer has been the same. That's why it's so much fun to attend properly run blind test exercises, especially ones where people who rekon they can hear the difference in their own "blind" testing show up. Sad faces.
Sadly, marketing and influencers will dispute your findings and audiofools will always side with them rather than with solid, scientific facts.
In the world of high speed digital electronics the length of a cable (or PCB trace) doesn't matter until it approaches around 1/6 the "Transition Electrical Length", or TEL. What really becomes a problem is signals that transition quickly, or the rise and fall time or the signal. Rise and fall times are usually close to symmetrical. TEL is calculated by multiplying the rise time by the velocity of propagation. In typical PCBs (Er ~ 4) the velocity of propagation is about 5.8 inches per second, or about 150 mm/s.
Both controlled impedance PCB traces and coaxial cables are types of transmission lines. When the length of a PCB trace or cable approaches TEL/6 controlled impedance becomes important and the PCB trace or cable need to be engineered as transmission lines. A transmission line is used to control reflections which occur from impedance mismatches. Reflections decrease signal integrity and can cause jitter to increase in the best case and completely prevent the data from being received in the worst case.
In a PCB the velocity of propagation is about 5.8 in/sec. This is a function of the speed of light and the effective dielectric constant of the PCB's fiberglass sheets (about 4.0 for typical PCBs). In coaxial cables, the dielectric can vary, but it usually some type of plastic like polyethylene (PE - common used in cutting boards and shopping bags) or polytetrafluoroethylene (PTFE/teflon - like in nonstick cookware). It can be a solid, a foam or it can be spirally wound so most of the space between the cable's center conductor and the shield is air. Some common cable you might have around the house is RG-6 for your cable TV. It has PE foam dielectric and a velocity of propagation of about 0.75 times the speed of light, or 8.9 inches per nanosecond. The RCA cable shown in the video probably uses PVC between the center conductor and shield, and has a velocity of propagation of 8.0 inches/nanosecond
In analog audio the fastest rise time possible on a CD is a 1 / (44.1 kHz / 2) or 45 microseconds. So TEL/6 calculates to (45,000 * 8.0) / 6 = 60,000 inches, 5000 feet (nearly a mile) or 1521 meters. This assumes the output of the DAC has been low pass filtered with a -3 dB bandwidth of 22.05 kHz. Inside the actual player there are faster rise times as the digital EFM stream is read from the Redbook, converted to LPCM and fed into the DAC, but that all happens on the PCB (maybe even inside a single IC) where distances are much smaller and cable choice doesn't matter.
In digital audio, I don't know if it is as well defined, but lets assume we need 10x the bandwidth of the signal to accurately reproduce the edges of the square waves. This is the assumption I use for square waves in PCBs. Let's also assume the cable is 75 ohm impedance with solid PE dielectric (7.8 inches/ns). Assuming a digital PCM stream of 44.1 KHz * 16 bits per sample we have: 44.1 kHz * 16 bits * 2 channels = 1.4112 Mbps (should look familiar). We will need a bandwidth of 10x the bit rate to transfer the data properly using a single ended square wave, or 14.112 MHz. This implies a rise time of 70.9 ns. TEL/6 in our 75 ohm PE dielectric coax becomes 92 inches or 2.3 meters. We are nearing the threshold where controlled impedance starts to matter in terms of typical cable length. I would (and have) use a 75 ohm cable in this case. I saw elsewhere on the web someone measured the rise time of a PCM stream on a digital audio output at 25 ns which is about 3x faster and TEL/6 would decrease by 3x as similarly. They had some other conclusions about some cables being too short, but I don't know how they came to that conclusion and of course there was no citation.
We could do something crazy like encode the audio with 24 bits at 192 kHz. Running the numbers TEL/6 in solid PE coax is 14.1 inches. Definitely need a 75 ohm cable here for lengths of 1-2 meters.
However, if we just use 75 ohm coax (with 75 ohm terminated drivers and receivers, i.e "impedance matching"), then it doesn't matter. Reflections are controlled and all that you need to worry about is losses. I'll spare the details, but the way to figure this out is to calculate a link budget based on the transmission amplitude and the receiver sensitivity, taking into account losses (copper losses, dielectric losses) and noise. Suffice it to say it doesn't matter over distances of 1-2 meters at these frequencies.
When I hooked my CD transport (a Blu-ray payer) to my AVR I used a single coax from a component video cable set. These were used before digital video cable standards like HDMI evolved and they consist of a set of three cables that carried the color and sync information in the analog domain. Each cable is 75 ohms. I removed a single coax cable from the set of three. It doens't matter that it is for video, the electrons don't care. I had this cable laying around and it was effectively free. My local Hi-fi shop wanted $69.99 USD for their least expensive coaxial digital audio cable. I've seen 1 or 1.5 meter cables going for hundreds of US dollars which is absolutely absurd. Even 70 USD is nuts.
If you think you hear a difference, go ahead and spend your money. I'd rather invest my money elsewhere.
Watching this video takes me back many decades to the late Peter Aczel’s 10 biggest lies in audio article in the long defunct magazine known as The Audio Critic. One of the top ten was the insanely priced audio cable scam. That along with not falling for “tweaks” like magic pucks and shakti stones have enabled people like me with no electrical engineering experience to save their hard earned money and spend it on buying more music. I know that the golden ears hucksters at Audioquest with their insanely priced Mythos cables would not be fans of this video
Amir...is an audio prophet. :)
Short and sweet review!
Nuff said...
Although I'm against audiophile bs about magic cable parameters, I can't agree with this one. I used 1m long RCA cables provided with my Asus Xonar sound card plugged into an external headphone amplifier. When I bought 20$ pair of RCA cables the difference was noticeable right away. I could switch between cables and point out details that were missing with "generic" cable. After cutting it, I saw only a pair of hair thick wires, no coating and no shielding. Dirt cheap cables are lottery and perhaps you just got lucky with this one but after my experience I wouldn't risk dead cheap cables anymore.
You’ve just made the people who live and die by specs run to the “Well, not everything that can be heard can be tested” corner. Or, they will disregard this test as a clever ploy for you to sell Recoton cables at $500 each as “Vintage Audiophile” cables because you’ve bought up all of the leftover supply.
I'd say that it is quite fair to say that not everything that we can hear can be tested. For example, the tests in this video don't say anything about soundstage. I assume you agree soundstage is a thing. What if this cable decreases soundstage?
I'm not saying that it does btw
Great video Amir, thanks a lot. Quick question though, would cheap RCA cables be more susceptible to interference noise from e.g. power cables, power transformers that are close by? In other words, could the shielding be (far) worse?
Amir,
If I send you a few cable to test, would you make a video on it?
I have audioquest and recently tried wireworld Oasis 8. And monoprice.
Might you be willing to perform your objective tests and then also perform listening tests and tell me what you think?
That would be very cool if you were open to that.
No exaggeration, you are my new favorite reviewer. Didn’t know about your channel until today.
I greatly appreciate your objectivity, candor and direct approach to it all.
Thank you.
All cables made from copper even silver oxidise over time regardless of cost, but not all cables are made equally.
OxygenFreeNitrogen does not exist soon as its made it starts to oxidise. some oxidise quicker due to manufacturing process.
Pure Gold is the only material that does not oxidise (much)
But completely agree with length of cable effects the resistance and pickup!
Oxidation is really only an issue on the terminations, which are usually gold-plated even on budget cables (these days, at least). The outside of the actual cable getting oxidized is pretty much irrelevant, I'd say.
You just happened to find the really, really good cheap ones ;)
:)
FYI I have tested others: www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/battle-of-rca-cables-mogami-amazon-monoprice.27871/
This is why expensive cables are so good or 'better' ...because they work as well as the cheap stuff. Or Mostly as good...
Terrific review. I use a lot of those Amazon Basics cables, and they seem pretty decent. Certainly provide better performance than my ears need.
There can be a case made for better shielding to keep RF and EM energy out of the signal but other than that, cheap ones are fine, just don't run them near the 50/60 hz stuff...
I dont appreaciate the hostility in these comments. I just say I wish people get to listen to a system in where the cable start to make a difference (doesnt have to be a >10k$ system). I have a/b tested some bulk rca vs. Zu rcas and even the half deaf neighbour could spot which was better. There is something that these tests do not reveal.
All the best.
-S
Amir, would you please test different speaker cables like recoton as well?
Thanks
Thank you Amir for your honesty and integrity when it comes to everything you do with regards to giving me,the consumer something to kick myself in the but for falling for the hype. I appreciate you immensely! Please don’t ever stop. David
My fav wire for RCA (and guitar) cables is the gotham ultra pro gac1. Coaxial design with 4 layers of shielding.
Busted! Thank you Amir!
Just spent about $200 on an RCA cable for my new Technics SL1200GR turntable.... The one place in a system where a cable actually makes a difference is the tonearm RCA cable due to the super low voltage coming through it. The resulting sound is easily changed by different materials and construction. Small differences are amplified by huge amounts by the phono preamp and as a result can be easily heard.
RCA cables are the only cables where I notice a difference in performance between dirt cheap and slightly-less dirt cheap. But, the performance I notice is purely down to fitment. Some cables just don't make a solid connection. Same with some garbage tier HDMI cables.
I've had some of these very thin freebie cables develop problems around the connector where moving it slightly caused the signal to cut out or it would induce some noise into the output. Not all freebie RCA's are equal either - some are clearly better made than others - the ones I don't like seem almost hair thin... I don't object to spending a reasonable amount on a well made cable that's going to last and not play up. It's when it's taken to absurd levels, both in terms of prices and fantastical claims that it becomes silly, IMHO. Away from RCA connections, I've had particular problems with sub-standard USB 3.x cables which presented as frequent disconnects during heavy file transfers to external HDD's - the problem resolved once I changed the cable.
i will say i have had some of those go bad if you're constantly plugging/unplugging, being that the wire in them is so thin, but you will know it as soon as you fire things up and you get a hum. but other than that they're fine. i would get next step up for longer runs if you need them, but still no need on spending more than like $20 on an rca cable. i worked for a high end a/v company for a while and they were buying everything from monoprice. that's actually how i found out monoprice was a thing.
My biggest issue is durability. I’ve had the dirt cheap cables actually break on me.
Grazie mille Amirm from italy!!!
Amir, are you ok? It’s been awhile since you’ve done a review. It’s not like you to be gone so long. Hope it isn’t anything bad! Stay safe my mates!😊👍🏻😁🛠
I think you need to explain as well how the impedance of the cable plays a part when between certain equipment. For example between pre amp and power amplifier, how it affects frequency response depending on input and output impedance mismatch.
Thanks.
Just goes on to reinforce my suggestions to others that any half decent cable is more than good enough to audiophile listening. Don't spend loads of money to buy marketing hype ;)
While I would not cheap out on Walmart brand I would never go over $100/pair. Mogami, Belden, Blue Jean, or Worlds Best Cables are all you need
The major difference in RCA cables is not how they pass signals, but how they shield from external noise and how they couple the system grounds together. Any junky cable can pass 20KHz 6' without distortion. Put the cheap RCA cable parallel to an AC power cord to see the difference: the cheap one will have big 50/60Hz pickup. And it is a function of the driver/source impedance: Low is good, 300 ohms not so good.
Then try the power line test with a nicer $20+ cable. The cheap cable has poor shielding coverage, typically 90% or less. The better cable will have multiple shields, typically copper braid + foil for 100% shielding. Measuring the DC resistance of the shield is also a good test: Low (~50 mOhms for 6') is good. 100-500 mOhms or more is bad.
Oh man I can’t wait! We used to rag on fools that went with the Recoton option!
I have a $450 Pre amp and a $1000 amp. In neither can you "upgrade" to a $$ power cord. The connections on the equipment don't allow it. I can only find $10 replacements. These are two well respected audio companies. Are their designers and engineers trying to tell me something ?
Audio cable do make a difference . I recently changed to Mogami interconnects . I changed one channel and I ask my wife dowsnshe hears a difference . She picked the Mogami . Same with Micca speaker wires.
Are you able to replicate a test simulating single-ended cables in differential inputs and vice versa to see if there’s any noticeable differences? Lots of talk about how they each reject noise differently and that you shouldn’t mix them, but I also hear that it doesn’t really matter. I’d love to see actual data confirming one way or the other
Sure. Now connect it to a full system or a Home Theatre receiver with a bunch of other cables around, including power cables and and video cables (better yet, try one of the sh*t video cables just like those interconnects) and see what happens. You will get noise as they DO act like an antenna, pulling-in RF interference that will ruin your sound, especially in the high frequencies.
There's people who do their testing from sitting in front of a monitor, and there's people who do their testing from using the things on the side of the head. I think know which when you fall on.
When listening, I also prefer not to put up with the faint background signal noise (noise floor)
One should try pressing pause or mute, and from the MLP, if one is unable to differentiate whether the systems are on or off that's telling you, your cables are crap.
When friends or guests come around rather than showing them how loud the system goes, I prefer to press pause/mute and show them how quiet it goes. None of them gets it, of course 😂
After auditioning three separate AVR's, the same ambient sound of the room was still present! It was only on the third occasion when I finally purchased shielded cables that the noise floor in my small room finally came down to satisfactory levels. Cables often act as antennas for attracting RF, and the longer the cable, the better the antenna. Probably explains why when I used to disconnect my heights and surrounds within 10 minutes, the faint background signal noise (RF/EMI) within my small room used to disappear/dissipate.
Superb!
Love your videos, Thanks
Yet another reason that I can spot an audio snob is when he spends over ~$20 on an audio cable and says he can hear the difference!
As long as the connectors are gold plated for contact quality, and the cable is durable, they are excellent and will perform just as well as $100+ cables with OFC and Litz wire!
What a ripoff these companies are!
But but but, Amir, you need to measure them with ANALOGUE gear and a vinyl source, with Michael Fremer as a calibrated transducer; his choice adjectives telling it as it is.
If Bob Ludwig doesn't live in your basement, how can you even begin to know about "soundstage" and "dynamics" ? Is your cheap AudioPrecision kit made by Maselec and your IM signal played back at 30 ips on a custom Studer A80 ? No. So you're not qualified to talk about audio. Stick with computer start sounds. Everyone who reads Stereophile, knows that unless your cable is forged by Cardas out of a drawn ingot of oxygen-free silver, you'll never hear music as nature intended.
Guilty as charged! :)
MIchael Fremer has 74 year old ears, and can't hear his wife call him from across the room, but he can hear differences between cables. 🤣🤣
I’m curious though. Did you run this test around other signal/other power cables? I’m a compete newb to all this… does having other cables touching these affect anything?
May I ask how does your audio system looks like? Which components and speakers did you choose?
i love my Amazon basics RCA cable. They are cheap and great quality.
great video subbed 👍
Thanks so much!
The only thing I need in cables is isolation. I had a loop noise in my past crowded hifi system and I got crazy before understanding it was a thiny cables fault. Note that the radio dab thay connected to the integrated amp was turned off during the loop noise.
I do wonder why none of the "reviewers" ever seem to look into why they might have heard a difference?
It's annoying when they say "oh if you can't hear a difference your system isn't good enough"
I use short cables like those with my STAX. I can hear the differences between how songs are mixed and mastered even on the same album just fine. More expensive cables would just be less money in my pocket.
Love it!
I'd guess capacitance would make a difference if you use it as a phono cable, but in normal conditions yeah, just get a quality one.
Audio magazine used to perform 10khz Square wave tests and tone burst test on equipment. I wonder what ASR thinks of that type of testing.
I see no value in them. If you play a 10 kHz square wave from a CD, it will almost look like a sine wave! The reason is that only its second harmonic is captured in CD format. Everything above that cannot exist and as a result, such a signal is "illegal" content. There was a time when amplifiers had really low bandwidth so people did these kinds of slew tests and such. Today that is not an issue and as I just explained, our sources are highly bandwidth limited (as is our ear).
The other reason square wave test was used was because you could use any oscilloscope to analyze it to indirectly assess other factors such as low or high frequency bandwidth limits. I use a direct method with an audio analyzer to detect that at far higher resolution (frequency response) so that is not of value either.