Final Fantasy 7: The Nibelheim Incident - How Sephiroth Became the Villain
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- čas přidán 1. 01. 2022
- A detailed exploration of what happened five years ago in Nibelheim.
It's clear Cloud Strife's version of events during the Kalm Flashback is not adding up, so what really happened that fateful day?
Why did Sephiroth turn? Who was there?
Using evidence from across the Final Fantasy 7 compilation: Final Fantasy VII, Crisis Core, Before Crisis, Last Order, Dirge of Cerberus, Advent Children, The Maiden Who Travelled the Planet, The Kid are Alright: A Turk's Side Story, A Trace of Two Pasts, On the Way to a Smile.
Sephiroth is the antagonist but Hojo is the villain.
Hojo as well as jenova
Wow...I'm left speechless. All this time I always felt that Sephiroth's turn to evil was out of nowhere, but how in depth you go in piecing everything together during the events of the games. This was well done. I can't thank you enough. Masterfully done. Excellent job!
Its explained in ff7
So you never played ff7, crisis core or watched the anime which solely focuses on the events in nibelheim? Sephiroths background story was never a secret. Nothing new was covered here.
@@k4yser facts
Finding Vincent and traveling to Lucretia’s cave really helps drive this part of the story in FF7. There are bits and pieces of this major plot point that are easily overlooked in your first play through that start from Calm and when Cloud and Tifa return to Nibelheim, and tidy up well after Cloud and Tifa fall into the Life Stream together, and Tifa is able to piece together Cloud’s memories and separate them from Zack’s.
It’s slightly tedious, I imagine, because you’re going from “we’re fighting Shinra,” to “We’re chasing Sephiroth,” to “let’s steal this prop plane from this rocket guy,” and so on. Then near the end, when the Weapons attack Gaia, and Cloud gets his mind controlled by Sephiroth, falls in the Life Stream and such, it’s like “oh hey, we’re now in Cloud’s consciousness, and here’s a whole lot of what really happened.”
So you see Sephiroth lose his marbles on two occasions in FF7, from Cloud’s false memories, and again when in the Life Stream as Tifa in Cloud’s consciousness.
Crisis Core and Last Order shows what could have been useful to know pre-Nibelheim.
Crisis core is your friend. It explains much of his downfall, and what made him who he is in the continuity of the original games. I have a theory that he is playing a far different role than the villain in remake, and hopefully rebirth expounds upon this even more.
I'm playing FF7 for the first time in a few years. What really stood out to me about the Kalm flashback is how normal it is until Sephiroth goes nuts. He's running the operation but he wants everyone to be loose yet focused during it. He gives everyone a science lesson about materia and isn't uncaring regarding the lives of others. He's very professional in his conduct. And then it all went wrong.
Genesis being added to the Nibelheim Incident makes complete and total sense, especially since his main goal is to prevent himself from prematurely aging. Where else could he have possibly found a chance to reverse the genetic deterioration but at the place where Sephiroth had been experimented on, where Sephiroth had been infused with Jenova's cells and still survives without deterioration?
As a kid I watched my brother play this game, I always thought Sephiroth went mad because he read his whole library haha, weird kid I was.
No this makes perfect sense 🤣
This does make perfect sense imagine reading the perfect sequence of literature that shows you all the secrets of the uni(multi)verse. Then your government betrays you cause even though you were born in America you aren't like the rest so you don't get American rights like freedom of speech. Mainly because you used your psychic energy to perfectly merge two realities into one. Some understand but some blame you cause their little boys and girls feel like the opposite gender. Blah oh well I digress. Where's my smokes Randy?
Just binged all 4 videos on this channel, good stuff, hope to see more
What if Zangan is Cloud's father? His mother explains that Cloud's father could never stay in one place. In his letter to Tifa, Zangan says he can't stay in one place. Could be a reasonable explanation for Cloud's strength and combat skill.
What an amazing video: kudos!
One thing that always bothered me was how Sephiroth injured Tifa to the point of almost dying yet appears almost unscathed in nearly every game in the series.
Hearing how bad her injuries actually were and how long her recovery had been was such a jarring thing to hear but also felt like the last piece of the puzzle.
Before Crisis and Last Order Nibelheim incident is a bit different because it’s meant to be from the perspective of the Turks. Not believing anyone could defeat Sephiroth, they assumed Sephiroth jumped vs being thrown. Those events are being read by Tseng in Last Order.
"Not believing anyone could defeat Sephiroth"
Is it really that hard to believe Zack (another First Class SOLDIER) could have defeated Sephiroth in a moment of weakness? Granted, he isn't on the same level as Sephiroth, but it's a lot more credible than what actually went down - Sephiroth being owned by a lowly infantryman.
No he couldn't. He never could and if genesis and angeal couldn't beat sephiroth in what world would it make sense to you for Zack to be able to? The reason Cloud beat Sephiroth is mainly due to him being the main fucking character of ff7. I really hope we get to see Zack put in his place again in rebirth a lot of you Zack fan boys need to be humbled. Cloud is the MC and that will never change.
@@elizabethchint2391 I can buy Sephiroth being defeated by Zack in the same way I can buy Anakin Skywalker getting bested by Obi-wan Kenobi in _Revenge of the Sith._ Skywalker is the more powerful Jedi, so it shouldn't be possible for him to lose, but Kenobi is more experienced, he knows his apprentice's fighting style inside out, and Anakin allows his emotions to get the better of him. All this adds up to a scenario where it's not hard to believe that Kenobi could win, even though he's fighting the Chosen One. And Kenobi isn't even the MC of Star Wars (although you could argue he is the MC of the prequels.)
On the other hand, there's absolutely no chance that Luke Skywalker could EVER win against Darth Vader, despite being the main character in his story. Luke has only had a few weeks' training, and he only manages to overcome Vader aboard the second Death Star because Vader is holding back the entire fight. Their first encounter in Bespin is one-sided and Vader is clearly toying with him the whole time.
FFVII is basically the same thing. I imagine they'll retcon the story in Remake so that Sephiroth is seriously wounded in his fight with Zack, so much so that Cloud is able to finish him off. To have this super-powerful warrior defeated by the hero simply because he's the hero would cheapen him as a villain. And they've already weakened Sephiroth by having him appear so much in the first instalment.
Did we forget Cloud impaled him with the Buster Sword? I'm surprised Seph survived that. That sneak attack means no retcon is needed. If anything, they'll make sephiroth even more of a badass against Zack, then make him arrogant and careless.
@@elizabethchint2391What is your problem? Nobody doubts clouds MC status.
At the end, is all Shinra and Hojo's fault
This was exactly the video I was looking for! A comprehensive understanding of every aspect to this key plot point in FF7 and from all of it's reinterpretations. Thank for making this video!
Glad you liked it!
I can't really call sephiroth an evil villian. He snapped and because of several reasons 1.all ppl close to him turned on him so the protective emotional net of ties most ppl have he didn't. 2. He realized he was being used and manipulated by Shinra Inc. Also the guy haven't slept for days so to put a fine point to it he was delirious, mentally unstable,angry and confused. And that's not considering the impact the jenova cells could very well were affecting his thoughts and judgements. Within a blink of an eye he turned from being a Beloved Hero to a brutal murderer. Actions like that ate caused by numerous factors and shouldn't receive that kind of a simplistic label.
His fall into evil was not his fault… but Sephiroth truly did become darker than Jenova after neibelheim broke him. Even if Jenova pushed him over that edge during the seven days prior to the fires… Sephiroth did truly become his son
"i can't call him an evil villain"
@@dizzlebizzle8424That's something people don't seem to understand, just because someone has a tragic background they excuse way to many things.
Just like the video says, none of what you described can be an excuse for genocide. Let alone all the other stuff he does.
So hes, he is an evil villain, regardless of his backstory
I find it funny how every lore video gives more and more similarities between StarWars and FF VII. Sephiroth and Anakin for example. Both had terrible upbringings and were abused by organizations they pledged their lives to until it became too much and both joined the darkside. And much like the StarWars community the FF community didn't understand Sephiroth's turn to darkness and felt it was just out of place just like Anakins until you look deeper and actually read between the lines do things become more clear. I love both these franchises.
Anakin and Sephiroth also both had mommy issues. And they never really knew their father. Although in a way both did, since Sephiroth knew Hojo (and had nothing but contempt for him), and Palpatine may have created Anakin.
"Tales as old as time"
"sketchy stuff was going on there"
Oh, I guess that explains the flying pumpkin enemies inside the mansion and the buff blond-haired dudes with metal scythes instead of legs who swing from the ceiling.
Nice comment.
I never believe how much lore and importance nibelheim had! Thank you so much!
Genesis’ presence in the Nibelheim Reactor during Crisis Core doesn’t change anything from the original. It simply adds another scene not otherwise seen in the original, or any other piece of FF7 media for that matter. Crisis Core still shows the scene that occurred in the original as well, completely unadulterated, and as it was in the original.
Thank you for a fascinating video! I love how you've used so many sources to explain the Incident. It makes sense now.
I'm very happy to have found your videos, they are very well done, but I'm sad that the channels seems to have gone dormant. I hope to see you put out more content like this if you ever decide to come back to it.
Hi! Thank you for stopping by, I am working on a new video and more after that, so watch this space!
Cloud defeated him cause he was carrying a pre emptive materia at the time. So he back attacked a weakened sephiroth.
I'm revisiting this universe as an adult. Having not played it since around release I have gone through Crisis Core reunion and the remake integrade. It's literally just left me a speechless because when I went through it as a kid I did not pick up on the extent of the Zach and Cloud stuff. It's just so good and I've been totally hooked as of late.
As fascinating as it is exhaustive. Thank you so much for this video. It really deserves more exposure.
I really how you showed early on how Cloud attacks Sephiroth in Last Order. The scraping of the blades is epic
This was very well done. Thank you and subbed. Well spoken and paced
This channel is a hidden gem! I hope you get the recognition you deserve :)
This was amazing.. how is this not more popular?
This was an amazing analysis. Thank you for this
I'll have to listen to this several times to digest it and dissect it.
Great job. Liked and subscribed.
I really liked this video, great to listen at work. I also like the idea of breaking down parts of the game´s lore and explore them, instead of going through a full game. Great work, i hope you start getting the recognition you deserve. The production values are also very good!
There are many reasons that built up to Sephiroth's rampage, but aside from all of the things that he learned and the recent events with Angeal and Genesis, we can also assume the Jenova cells inside him were becoming active what with being so close to the main body. Even without any of the discoveries he made that factor alone would be enough to explain why he would suddenly lose his mind. In fact it's probably safe to assume that the only reason it took so many reasons combined is because Sephiroth's will was so strong that he was able to resist Jenova from taking over and making him into a puppet.
Well presented - subbed. Do NOT become plain toast with this subject - passion and talent will show. Thank you for your content.
This video looks like is exactly what I’ve been looking for after recent replays of OG and crisis core.
Amazing explanation!!
Loved the video!!
Yeah.. I'm surprised this doesn't have more views.. you should make a few more of these.. there's so much lore to get into!
Thank you for this video.
My pleasure!
What an amazing video! Well done.
in the first minutes I thought this might be just a halfassed retelling of what everone knows but it quickly turned into an interesting reconstruction of the events in Nibelheim, very well done
This creator is fire and her content should not be this hidden. Make it more available CZcams, do it now. We need an updated version of this video.
Best video I'm watched in a long time.
I already knew why Sephiroth went insane and evil, it was because he believed the LIE he's been told since he was a kid that his mother's name was Jenova but that's not his real mother! Also the Jenova reunion experiment was all Hojo's mad scientist ambitions for his mad scientific curiosity.
34:51 “Excuse me, Tifa.” “Sure don’t mind me.”
Priorities lol
The S's are piercing my eardrums
I’m a year late but the algorithm works. Excellent stuff, subscribed
Excellent video! A lot of stuff I wasn’t aware of (such as Mt Nibel being the first reactor they built).
It does make a lot of sense thinking back. I remember when I first played through FF7 as a kid, the Nibelheim/reactor in the flashback creeped me out, a lot lol. The first time I watched the flashback it was late at night and I was staying up late on a Friday night, whole house was dark, then I see the Makonoid (or whatever they’re called), then Sephy’s creepy theme plays when he says “I’m going to see my mother” with the creepy Jenova scene, actually legit gave me the creeps lol. Hey I was only like 10 when it first released. >_>
Well done you fully explained the correlation between Jenova and Sephiroth. While I wholly agree that Sephiroth is the villain I still have my grievances about him continuing with Jenova's plan/life cycle in using meteror to destroy the plan.
In such an instance I would have to say Jenova is the villain....However as you explained and showed that Jenova meeting the group on the boat had NO idea as to who Cloud actually was. Later when Sephiroth finally gains full control of Jenova is when he becomes the villain.
I just have to say this Bravo, a job well done.
I will add this however, Jenova is something of what we call a MIMIC character. with a MIRROR a mirror Reflects, creating a MIMIC and a mimic Emulates. As they said in the game she would take the form or Mirror image of their loved ones.
There are an assortment of these types of characters and I have been researching them all. I can name a few: Mimikyu, Keckleon, Ditto, Castform, Flood from halo (especially the pure forms), X-Parasite from Metroid Fusion and Dread, and Zerg from starcraft the changeling.
While there are a lot more and varying types I can only mention this for now, as the rest is research.
I'm glad I watched the whole video.
Wonderful video 👍
Criminally underrated channel. Keep up the good work!
Only Lucrecia can stop Sephiroth
Please don’t stop making CZcams videos. This was great.
Last order gets several facts wrong. Sephiroth never jumped into the reactor. Cloud threw him. Cloud also never had a mako eye glow before Hojo took him.
thank you!!!
Felt like im Watching National Geographic here
After he lock himself in the mansion and read deep into the reports he started looking at humans like we were ants also that he was cetra and we took the planet from them hence why he slaughtered the town
Sephiroth wasn't a centra and neither was jenovah. Jenovah was a devourer that crash landed on the planet and took most of the centra to stop her from consuming the planet most of the centra died at that battle.
@@Citizen_Nappa23 yea I know he wasn't a cetra he thought he was after he read the reports in the mansion and then found out the truth they wasn't after being thrown in the lifestream at the mako reactor
Rebirth’s newest trailer adds even more to this 37:44 👀
Small channel... Subscribed.
imagine if he found out who his father is 🤣
I’ve always felt he was sadly misguided… imagine if he knew jenova was an alien and not a cetra…in my mind jenova has always been the main enemy…
In the new version of Crisis Core they cut a huge part of the journey to Mount Nibleheim and people think its to save development time.
But I think they did that on purpose. Because the whole theme of FF7 is about memories and more importantly altered and manipulated memories.
I am certain that the second part of FF7 Remake will tell the "true" story of the "Journey to Mount Nibleheim" and give us a very different story to what we are used from OG FF7 and Crisis Core.
My guess is that as the title Rebirth states that Cloud is given back all his correct and real memories while Zack is being Reborn (well I hope that Zack is being reborn but it might very well just be a Goodbye to Zack who is den seperated from Cloud.. as currently Cloud in FF7R is having parts and memories of Zack AND Sephiroth in him) THe whole remake was just about Sephiroth freeing himself from Jenovas control and I think the next part will tell the same about Cloud and Zack.
The whole Jenova being Sephiroths Mother thing was just falsely implanted memories that were caused by Jenova cells being implanted into Sephiroth. They poisoned their baby with Jenova cells but that doesn't make Jenova Sephiroths mother. Jenova is just a smart plague that mimicks its prey and gives it false memories.
Sephiroth had a Mom and Dad just like everyone else and I wonder what this new.. untainted Sephiroth is going to be... Whatever it is part 1 showed us at the very last we will meet him again 7 seconds before the world gets destroyed and he and Cloud will have a role to play in preventing the destruction.
It would be cool if they reveal that Tifa, Cloud and Sephiroth knew eachother as a child and Jenova has just altered everyones memories.
But what you say about Sephiroth burning down "his" home village because they neglected him.. there is a very fitting African Proverb on this:
The child who is not embraced by the village will burn it down to feel its warmth.
I think Last order is like an AU XD
What a lovely voice you have
i had never played any of the FF series. got bored of WoW one day (16 years in) and decided to try the FF14. i knew from pop culture a lot about 7 and i felt like even though 14 was a different world and different characters, there was a lot of cross-over and similarities and i knew 7 was the classic title that everyone seemed to love the most. so i finally decided to play 7. it was a bit odd to me that it was a long series with many titles yet there wasn't much connection between most of the games while also being a ton of connections between games. the writing seemed pretty bad and the performances similarly overly dramatic or bad....yet i still enjoyed seeing this insanity and inanity. i tried to make sense as best i could, but not till i played Crisis Core did it click. just watched this video after finishing CC and it confirms my interpretations almost 100%. it was hard to piece together what was really going on and somehow just as hard even after it all happened, but apparently the truth is sprinkled enough.
Oh I definitely didn't cry at all
Hajj my beautiful Sephy! *.* I've been otaku for ff7 since a kid from the original JRPG and Remake was a dream that actually came real with Crises Core, an ova special of the Nebeheim incident, the movies, etc.
This game was always special to me plus it was my very first JRPG introduced to me by my brother!
I'll never understand why can't the US not make American anime and RPGs as the conceptual beautiful artistic view of Japanese ?
awesome
Do you guys think that sephiroth was manipulated all his life, even the books? And Shinra too. Even if he was smart enough he would go searching for the real truth instead of lies that he thought was truth
In Nibelheim, I was forced into ---
FF7: Ever Crisis is gonna RAMP THIS SHIT UP! Young Sephiroth everyone!!!
PS; there may be nothing STRONGER than Sephiroth, but there is someone just as strong: Cloud
And of course there is a comment section full of people again who do not get the game and believe in the Brittenham theory, not understanding that Jenova is not a villain, not even a character but an alien animal and that the original game explained it was all Sephiroth and his willpower, same goes for all the supplemental material.
Hojo in the original game explained it was sephiroth's doing. The cetra believed Jenova was so bad, they shouldn't destroy her but seal it away. It may be an alien animal, but it was intelligent enough to read people's memory and adapt. The signifance of Jenova has been underplayed for decades. It is the crisis. IMO, the return of Ore Sephiroth at the edge of creation foreshadows the conflict Sephiroth has with Jenova. Ever since Jenova influenced him, he referred to himself with watashi, as seen in CC and AC, but not at the EoC...
You have the voice of a BBC News reporter.
The cooments sections says everything i can think about this amazing video. All the best for you and blessings from Mexico.
holy smokes u have a sibilent voice
I love your accent ❤
💙💚❤
let's face it Cloud's Dad probuby wiped the floor with them
I know a lot people and developer believe that Sephiroth somehow overpower Jenova's will. While I admit that his will is powerful, it is not enough to overcome Jenova's influence. Everything he does supports Jenova's goal. The headaches he received during the revelation indicates Jenova was at work. I think Jenova was letting Sephiroth take the reign, but never actually submitted to his leadership. In Japanese, Sephiroth changes his pronouns from ore to watashi. Any thoughts? At the edge of creation, he is using his ore pronoun again, so i am thinking he must have broken free of Jenova's control. Remake is trying to recontextualize who is really in control. Sephiroth might have realized that he, too, was a puppet of Jenova.
A thing that I don’t think people take into account is the fact that Sephiroth didn’t sleep for 3 days due to his intense obsession to find the true and read all the reports. Your brain’s cognition and mood are affected and honestly with all that has happened and the information he found out, Sephiroth most definitely snapped in the worst way possible. Why else would he cut off Jenova’s head instead of trying to take all of her out? Lol. I’m joking kinda with the last one. Yeah Seph is so broken here that he is the definition of wrath.
It’s pretty obvious jenova was the true villain. Before sephiroth was just a regular guy. People liked him. Even with discovering all that i don’t think he would’ve turned evil without jenovas influence. She realized he was near which was why he was so eager to go deeper towards the reactor. She was stringing him along once she sensed he was nearby. Then in a vulnerable moment she took over.
The Nibelheim incident was the blueprint for big events in future titles. It’s what The purge from XIII or The fall of insomnia in XV could’ve been. It’s what the calamity in XIV was. It’s what I’m hoping the death of Joshua in XVI will be. I don’t normally compare the stories of the numbered titles, but the Nibelheim incident is the perfect example of a tragedy that has far reaching consequences.
Genesis is canon ❤ duh 🙄 The devs made Genesis and crisis core is the expansion ff7 needed. And crisis core is the origin story of ff7!
The issue is that the scene feels shoehorned in, and is unnecessary since sephiroth already has the tools he needed to heavily question why the reactor has the word JENOVA on it.
It's also cringe, and very much a product of mid 2000's square that clashes with the original game's visual design.
We dont give a fuck. Terrible character.
I agree with most of your theories, but I disagree about most of the parts regarding Zack, the first one being that he wasn't so easily defeated by Sephiroth, he was holding back at the start of the fight because he was trying to reason with him, but as the fight drew on and Sephiroth kept trying to cut him down, he received a lot of environmental injuries due to being pushed around since their fight was all over the Jenova chamber, I see it more as a feat of strength that Zack held out for as long as he did, because when Sephiroth was attacking him, he was actually out for blood and was full of rage, and not even Genesis when he was at his prime had been a match for Sephiroth, and later on in Crisis Core you actually had to fight a more powerful form of Genesis, and Zack actually beat Genesis because he didn't have to hold back against someone he didn't care for. The reason why Zack was able to escape all the experimentation, was because he was never stabbed or badly injured like Cloud was, he also possessed a strong mentality and willpower, so he was not going to be influenced by external sources like Jenova or anything, and I also find it as another incredible feat of strength, that Zack after his fight with a more powered up Genesis with barely any rest, he went back to Midgar in order to fight the ENTIRE Shin Ra army, and he eradicated almost all of the forces, except for the last 3 guys who arrived by helicopter, and they basically cheap shotted him, since he was already lying down due to all the excessive damage he had endured, but he still somehow managed to survive all of that, long enough to have one final conversation with Cloud, even after he had been shot in the head and chest several times...
Also I strongly believe that Hojo never told all his higher ups, that he had managed to find Zack alive in the cleanup, just so that he could keep him as a test subject, especially after Hojo basically got embarrassed multiple times by Zack’s performance, in all the training experiments he had taken part in, where Hojo was trying to kill him with Summons and stuff, and this makes perfect sense, based on what you mentioned regarding those other games that I didn’t know about, where the Turks basically retreated because they didn’t want to deal with a job that was too dirty even for them, as I think that if Tseng or Cissnei would have known that Zack was alive, they wouldn’t have turned their backs on him due to how close they all were, I don’t think they would have allowed for Hojo to experiment on him, since even one of their own Vincent who used to be a Turk, had been a subject for Hojo’s experimentation and they should have been familiar with that story, everything makes sense though if Hojo covered things up, and the proof is how overwhelmed Cissnei had been with her feelings, once she realized that Zack was alive which is why she did everything she could to try and help him, she may have had trust issues with the other Turks though, as she could have believed that Tseng or the others were in on it, but then Tseng also realized that Zack was alive, which is why he had made the order to every force available to him, to try and make a search for Zack, while of course keeping it confidential what he was doing, since it is possible that some of the higher ups may have also been somehow involved in the coverup, but unfortunately he was unable to save his friend.
Zack got his ass beat period (you zack stans are hilarious). I loved how much more Sephiroth beat his ass in last order.
Lastly Zack didn't defeat the "ENTIRE" Shinra army (a bunch of infantrymen), did you miss the part where the two infantrymen stood over his body and shot him and proceeded to leave? Let's be real. 😂
Stop putting game mechanics as his real strength. By that logic Cait Sith is god.
@@elizabethchint2391 You do realize this is a game franchise right? This is why you do have to count feats done in a canon game...And yes who knows Cait Sith could be a god, everyone knows hes supposed to be some kind of robot or something, because he is remotely controlled from Shin Ra, and he did come back after sacrificing himself in the temple, so who knows how many other Cait Sith could have been made, and how many of them can technically one shot even the WEAPONS.
Also there is no doubt that Zack had been ready to fight all of Shin Ra if he had to, the guy went back to the enemy HQ and faced it head on, so he had to deal with whatever the hell they decided to throw at him, this could have even included other SOLDIERS, or even experiments if they felt like it, but what we saw was a huge army of infantrymen, we didn't even see the whole fight, we just saw that it was daytime when the battle started, then it was dark out and started raining so who knows how much time had passed, the point still is that he did face the army but died to the hands of some lucky cowards, that showed up late to the fight and shot him while he was already down.
Not sure if I'm listening to an A.I. or some sort of Australian Japanese lady. Either way stories about madness are always fascinating, it's like gender dysphoria but you think you're the planet...almost was
lol, just me - I'm English :) Glad you enjoyed :)
@@finallyfightingfurther3256 lol, thanks for the clarification. To be fair, I figured it out after I heard you say "mako". I should have waited 5 minutes before commenting. Have a good day...night?
I thought this was about Final Fantasy 7. Not the crappy remake. Thumbs down
A thumbs down for you as requested