I hope so too. At the moment it's a little unpredictable, when even things like line of sight can rob you of the advantage. I guess it's a mix of situations that work fine by themselves, but in some cases like this, it's a bit of a mess.
I also think that surprise depends on whether or not an enemy's sightlines pass over the enemy that you kill. I have had instances where as long as a target has a sightline looking at them that I can get surprise
Nice! I went on a rant about this months ago, how glitchy surprise was. People would make videos trying to say how surprise worked, but they would be simplistic and obviously not thoroughly tested, because there was nothing simple about how surprise worked. I appreciate you taking it seriously, and noticing how even when you figure out one thing, there are still potentially other factors. I see you have an update video; I'll watch that now.
I was surprised I couldn't find any video on the topic. Everything I found was basically just saying "Attack unaware enemies and they will be surprised" and well... it was not the case for me. When I started noticing some consistencies and had an idea what the issue is, a video was a no-brainer. I sent a bug report with these two videos attached, so hopefully it will be improved in the future.
The most reliable way to surprise is to attack while being in the red enemy sight cone (e.g. with invisibility, or if you're good at stealth). I did not make any thorough experiments, but my anecdotal evidence from two playthroughs is that attacking from enemy's red line of sight 100% surprises.
Thanks. I got punished a few times and when I noticed what is probably happening, I figured other people may have the same issue. If you haven't seen the update video, I later found out that if there is no line of sight, the surprise doesn't work, so be wary of that too.
Thanks a ton for making this video. There is very little info on this when doing a Google search, so I thought I was doing something wrong. It's good to know there are ways around the mechanics inconsistencies.
I'm glad people find this useful :) Also if you haven't seen the update, be aware that the line of sight is also needed if you want to surprise enemies. I found out after making this video.
You need to have turn based mode on before attacking and this issue will disappear. since you kill the first guy or similar combat starts and ends at the same time but then the others start investigating and near immediately see you. perhaps a design issue but it actually makes sense if you understand how the mechanics work.
Hi, thanks for the suggestion, but that was not the case when I tried it. When I was recording, I tried one or two situations in Turn Based, and the result was the same as in real-time mode, so I didn't feel the need to include it. But true, I shouldn't have been lazy and added this. I went on and tested the theory, so I'll post a quick update later. The results didn't improve. In fact, I even found out that in Turn Based mode, the Shatter spell didn't surprise even though I left an enemy standing (the situation from 1:07). Though after a few more attempts, I think it has to do with positioning rather than Turn base mode being on/off.
@@GamingBirch I had some issues with turn based mode a while back. like my characters being "frozen" while the world and enemies still moved in real time. but I think that got fixed somehow. I don't remember if it was a game patch or maybe I started playing differently. I will test this whole issue more then. Just thinking about it besides starting in turn based mode part of it might have been having all my other characters in stealth and making sure my first attack is always a sneak melee or sneak ranged attack and of course that the enemy doesn't have a forced dialogue.
@@thcrs1 I don't recall many turn-based issues, I probably got lucky in that regard. Anyway, did a few more tests when I ambush enemies from turn based mode. The results are pretty much the same, but it looks like the enemy needs to have a line of sight in order to get surprised.
From my experiences, I think that the whole party has to be within the range of ‘turn-based-combat’ and hidden???? But I’ve never sat down and tested this.
You definitely don't need the whole party. It works even for a single separated character. (regardless if completely solo, or simply ungrouped and far away from the rest.)
I think the issue isn't whether surprise procs on the first enemy or not, but rather that an instant kill will 'finish' or not even initiate combat from your attack, but then the enemy group will initiate combat themselves, so no surprise round. If you don't kill the enemy with the first damage instance, then combat begins before any more damage instances are applied,
Good to hear :) Ironically, I realized the issue when playing Honour and failing to surprise the Gnoll group at the cave entrance. But this was actually good, because if you surprise them, you lose the option to talk to the leader and make her attack her kind :D
@@GamingBirch I just tried it in the creche and I was able to surprise everyone. All major groups of enemies at least. Not sure if everyone got mad at me first tho.
You're welcome :) I like your enthusiasm. If you haven't seen the update, please be aware that line of sight is also important. Basically no line of sight = no surprise (which I didn't find out when making this video).
I think you're right about the mechanics behind thesurprise attack. I hope they'll patch it to make it more intuitive.
I hope so too. At the moment it's a little unpredictable, when even things like line of sight can rob you of the advantage. I guess it's a mix of situations that work fine by themselves, but in some cases like this, it's a bit of a mess.
I also think that surprise depends on whether or not an enemy's sightlines pass over the enemy that you kill. I have had instances where as long as a target has a sightline looking at them that I can get surprise
You are right :) I didn't find that out while making this video, but I show it in the update (link in description)
Nice! I went on a rant about this months ago, how glitchy surprise was. People would make videos trying to say how surprise worked, but they would be simplistic and obviously not thoroughly tested, because there was nothing simple about how surprise worked. I appreciate you taking it seriously, and noticing how even when you figure out one thing, there are still potentially other factors. I see you have an update video; I'll watch that now.
I was surprised I couldn't find any video on the topic. Everything I found was basically just saying "Attack unaware enemies and they will be surprised" and well... it was not the case for me. When I started noticing some consistencies and had an idea what the issue is, a video was a no-brainer.
I sent a bug report with these two videos attached, so hopefully it will be improved in the future.
The most reliable way to surprise is to attack while being in the red enemy sight cone (e.g. with invisibility, or if you're good at stealth). I did not make any thorough experiments, but my anecdotal evidence from two playthroughs is that attacking from enemy's red line of sight 100% surprises.
Good tip too, do you know if this works even if you kill the enemy and there is no one else who has the red line on you? I need to test that case.
Oh. Wow. This is great. I'd always wondered why surprise is so inconsistent, but your explanation makes a lot of sense. Well done, Sir.
Thanks. I got punished a few times and when I noticed what is probably happening, I figured other people may have the same issue.
If you haven't seen the update video, I later found out that if there is no line of sight, the surprise doesn't work, so be wary of that too.
Thanks a ton for making this video. There is very little info on this when doing a Google search, so I thought I was doing something wrong. It's good to know there are ways around the mechanics inconsistencies.
I'm glad people find this useful :)
Also if you haven't seen the update, be aware that the line of sight is also needed if you want to surprise enemies. I found out after making this video.
You need to have turn based mode on before attacking and this issue will disappear. since you kill the first guy or similar combat starts and ends at the same time but then the others start investigating and near immediately see you. perhaps a design issue but it actually makes sense if you understand how the mechanics work.
Hi, thanks for the suggestion, but that was not the case when I tried it. When I was recording, I tried one or two situations in Turn Based, and the result was the same as in real-time mode, so I didn't feel the need to include it. But true, I shouldn't have been lazy and added this. I went on and tested the theory, so I'll post a quick update later.
The results didn't improve. In fact, I even found out that in Turn Based mode, the Shatter spell didn't surprise even though I left an enemy standing (the situation from 1:07). Though after a few more attempts, I think it has to do with positioning rather than Turn base mode being on/off.
@@GamingBirch I had some issues with turn based mode a while back. like my characters being "frozen" while the world and enemies still moved in real time. but I think that got fixed somehow. I don't remember if it was a game patch or maybe I started playing differently. I will test this whole issue more then. Just thinking about it besides starting in turn based mode part of it might have been having all my other characters in stealth and making sure my first attack is always a sneak melee or sneak ranged attack and of course that the enemy doesn't have a forced dialogue.
@@thcrs1 I don't recall many turn-based issues, I probably got lucky in that regard. Anyway, did a few more tests when I ambush enemies from turn based mode. The results are pretty much the same, but it looks like the enemy needs to have a line of sight in order to get surprised.
From my experiences, I think that the whole party has to be within the range of ‘turn-based-combat’ and hidden????
But I’ve never sat down and tested this.
You definitely don't need the whole party. It works even for a single separated character. (regardless if completely solo, or simply ungrouped and far away from the rest.)
I think the issue isn't whether surprise procs on the first enemy or not, but rather that an instant kill will 'finish' or not even initiate combat from your attack, but then the enemy group will initiate combat themselves, so no surprise round. If you don't kill the enemy with the first damage instance, then combat begins before any more damage instances are applied,
Thank you for testing this. It'll make my honour mode playthrough much more enjoyable
Good to hear :) Ironically, I realized the issue when playing Honour and failing to surprise the Gnoll group at the cave entrance.
But this was actually good, because if you surprise them, you lose the option to talk to the leader and make her attack her kind :D
@GamingBirch I hope they make it a bit more intuitive in the future. Yeah, that Gnoll fight is fun.
Is there a way to prevent the crime cut scene or can you just not surprise those enemies?
I am not sure. Sometimes it looks like it doesn't trigger if you are far enough, but I couldn't get consistent results to confirm it.
@@GamingBirch I just tried it in the creche and I was able to surprise everyone. All major groups of enemies at least. Not sure if everyone got mad at me first tho.
@@averageermine Interesting. I just did it in the Kuo-Toa cave and no surprise. I didn't even know they had the cutscene.
I am desperate to find a way to surprise yellow coded characters that trigger cut scene
It sometimes works to atrack them from a far distance, but it's not a consistent method.
Nice Video!
Thank you :)
Holy fuck thank you!
You're welcome :) I like your enthusiasm.
If you haven't seen the update, please be aware that line of sight is also important. Basically no line of sight = no surprise (which I didn't find out when making this video).