The Truth About Lies Part 3/(God, the “gods”, The Spiritual Backdrop of the Bible)/Various
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- čas přidán 29. 08. 2024
- Fighting The World, The Flesh, & The Devil: God, the “gods”, and the Spiritual Backdrop of the Bible
Various Scripture
John Mark Comer & Dr. Tim Mackie
Truth About Lies Series- • FIGHTING THE WORLD, TH...
What is the spiritual realm? Listen to an interview with Dr. Tim Mackie about the spiritual realm that exists all around us as described by the authors of the Bible.
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Comer looks like he's burrowing into Mackie's soul as he listens. I feel like if anyone ever listened to me with that degree of blistering intensity, I wouldn't speak again for decades.
oh man. Ya i kinda agree with ya lol
literally lol.
@@laybay612 Comer gets a little excited sometimes :)
Is that what that is? Looked like lust lol
I feel sorry for Tim as Comer is constantly interrupting him and speaking over. I just want to say to him, pause and let Tim talk.
My mind is blown by Tim’s ability to dive fearlessly into one of the toughest issues for modern materialist intellectuals - the existence and role of spiritual evil. It’s no mean feat to not shy away from this. As someone who only recently went from atheist to Christian I have been struggling with the whole ‘spiritual realm’ aspect of the religion more than anything else. Should I put it down to the primitive superstitious mind? Should I just ignore it altogether? These were my options I thought. But here Tim has shown its theological value and more than that - it’s necessity if we are to confront and overcome ‘real world’ evil. The personal struggle he describes at the end is echoed by all of us who are trying to follow Christ. For me Tim’s thinking provides an ideal toolkit to aid us in that struggle
Ya i don't get it to be honest. Thanks for the comment.
Love your journey!
As a Nigerian you’re confronted with these ideas, truths and experiences on spiritual evil, the spiritual realms etc. Then I went to America for college and lived there 10yrs and became very much American to a degree that America allowed and thought “what was all that spiritual stuff?”
What I failed to understand during my America adventure was that, we’re very much a product of our world. So if you exist in a materialistic space, your senses are attuned to the material. But when you experience something outside of that, you have to submit yourself to that experience to be wise.
Join me as we do just that.
I did slides for worship at one of the Solid Rock church plants in Oregon a couple years ago… I remember almost all of the pastors would kind of look past people serving and not even give them the time of day. It was very demeaning and hurtful. But Pastor Tim was one of the kindest people I’ve ever met. He took time to say hello and thank you to everyone and remembered all of our names. Which was NOT common among church leaders - At All. During the whole summer I was there it was so weird to see such a lack of humility in a lot of the pastors. I don’t go to church anymore but I will always remember what a great and humble person Pastor Tim was. He definitely has a heart for God and is a humble servant.
Awesome you said Solid Rock not AJC! #oldschool lol
Couldn't have been 26 West Jose says hello to everyone.
Couldn't have been Solid Rock Westside Phil and Tim are super friendly folks.
Couldn't have been Emmaus Dominic is the kindest person ever.
Could have been Bridgetown in the early stages I could see that. But Gerald and Beth are so friendly.
I don't think it was Riverbend Andrew and Brooke make you feel like a million bucks.
Was it Bridgetown?
I have only gone to Door of Hope a couple times so I have never met Tim personally! He seems he could listen for days.
Thanks for commenting!
Grace & Peace
@@BrianBull I think the church plant only lasted the summer. I didn’t recognize any of those names except Phil and Jose.. (who I had met a couple times and thought they were lovely) I’ve been out of the circle for a while. I remember Brook Mosser being super nice as well. There were some good people in leadership I just think a lot of people let it get to their head. People also worship church leaders for sure.. which just sets up “the bigger they are, the harder they fall” cliche. People are people. None of us are any better valued human beings for knowing Jesus. Solid Rock was a very complicated experience for me because it was the place I escaped my incredibly traumatic home life so I think feeling rejected or looked down on hurt me so much worse. I also remember two different experiences at Bridgetown where two homeless people (who were just there to worship) were forcibly removed. That hit my spirit hard. Imagine how Jesus would’ve handled that situation. Another time there were elders by the door asking people not to give a homeless woman money and that they would help her but she told my friend that no one had offered her help. I didn’t go back after that.
Tim Mackie is so underrated. He really knows how to present controversial information and findings in such a knowledgeable yet humble and kind way. Let's spread news about his channel! :)
@Shaddai Monteon
Please note at anytime they could ask me to take down all I have uploaded.
Grace & Peace
@Brian
Hi, I'm wondering what you meant by your comment? I understood it as- sharing can pose risks to your channel? I may not have understood correctly as I tried to correlate your comment to mine but couldn't. Please clarify if you can, thanks!
@Shaddai Monteon
You interpreted correctly.
@Brian
Uh-oh that is so odd. How would you like us to spread news about your topics? And share your interviews? Genuine question.
@Brian
I'll do it by name if that works for you. I just edited the initial comment, hope that is better! :)
This has been great. Being raised in church it seemed like they were trying to teach this but without such organized thought. I t think this is why I wasn’t dumbfounded when I learned this from Bible Project and Michael Heiser. It came together like a puzzle. Thank you.
O so glad this was helpful Lisa!
Grace & Peace
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I wish I could give this talk 1,000 thumbs up.
thanks!
Grace and Peace
"The battle to do what is best for me and to redefine good and evil for my own convenience, comfort and benefit and at the expense of the people around me." Like Cain did in Gen. 4. The last 5 minutes of this video were incredibly profound.
@The Story Girl
:)
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Jesus Is King!
This video is a great supplement to the Bible Project "God" series, which was my first encounter with BP. Dr Tim is so helpful breaking down a topic that's often ignored or neglected in the modern church
Wonderful, educated, powerful.
Glad you found it helpful!
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Shalom everyone.
Peace mercy and grace be to you.
Thank you for this upload.
My beloved brother Tim is a great example of God's truth within.
Please have patience with me.
We have great joy and bring you the best news ever, for everyone.
This is been given to us freely and will be given freely.
The Lord your God Jesus The Christ is the savior of everyone. No exceptions !
Not having any respect of persons, giving Grace to all, everyone in its own order.
*He is the savior of the world and will reconcile all things to Himself.*
Not death nor pagan places called hell to give a spirit of fear and to control you, will seperate us from His love. God forbid.
Pray to Him, He is faithfull in all things.
*None will be lost.*
Believe in Him, His everlasting mercy and never ending grace towards us and rejoice.
Thank you (and everyone else) for your patience reading this.
Peace to the brethren and sisters, and love, with faith, from God the Father, the Lord Jesus The Christ! Amen.
this is all true, this has been an understanding I have had that seems crazy to those who "read" the bible but don't "UNDERSTAND" it.
@Amy Marlyn Flores I couldn't agree more.
Thanks for sharing
Blessings
Wow! OK a lot went over my head however, in due time I will understand. Pray that God gives us all the wisdom that is needed.
This is so helpful as someone who has just came back to the church from being agnostic and trying to figure out a whole lot of things. Thank you so much!
Sure thing!
Godspeed to us all. Aloha
@Sojourner
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Wonderful teaching, thank you both. Blessings to you & your families.
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Thank you for sharing this. May God Bless You and Yours.
Your welcome!
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"the battle to do what is best for me, redefine good and evil? for my own convenience, comfort and benefit?" What is this guy talking about? The OT is about God's glorious grace extended to us, sinners.
I love to listen to Tim. I recognize that this is already a completed project, but I must say that I lose my line of learning when the interviewer keeps interrupting.
true
This is awesome! Thanks a bunch!!
Your so welcome!
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Absolutely fascinating
Hope something in here was challenging in a good way!
Blessings
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Mackie was great, as usual. I felt that Comer’s frequent interruptions were pretty unnecessary and even annoying at times.
100%
When he mentions the idea that it isn’t meant to be understood upon first reading, I dunno if I 100% agree with that. I think more so it was written TO them as opposed to US, where the “them” would be people of that day and age where so much was “common knowledge” that is completely foreign to us.
good point
That may be true IF the majority of Israelites practiced the Torah (See, the story of Josiah in 2 kings). David was really the only king who endorsed scripture. Read Nehemiah 8, when they come back from exile. They wouldn’t know from first reading, which is why the Levites had to explain it
Amazing! Just a suggestion...perhaps it would have been a bit better had Tim not been interrupted so often.
YES!!!!
Oh goodness yes 😢
I always assumed that when God said "Let us make humans in our image" he was referring to the Trinity (himself, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit) - not God the Father and the Divine Council.
Because God the Father is the same entity as the Spirit and Jesus, both assumptions are correct. When God says “Let Us”, I don’t believe it would be unbiblical to include the persons of the trinity AND the divine council. After all, Paul uses them interchangeably in verses like Rom 11:36.. and Jesus himself breathed out the life giving spirit in John 20:22 as God did in Genesis 2:7
It really shocks and confounds me. I have been reading Bible scriptures for 53 years and what I read and understand is not at all what everybody else is talking about. The Old Testament clearly says that the LORD(YHWH) created Humans and gods. So that's why the ONE, GREAT GLORY SPIRIT, IS NOT A GOD! All gods are creatures of the creation. And YAHSHUAH is not ONE with some "god-creature" but is "ONE WITH THE LORD." When I did a timeline from Day3(beginnings in the Garden) creation of the ADAM(Humans) to the times of JARED when the Nephilim appear is some 6263years. So We Humans had everythiñg going for us before any "god-creature" ever came on the scene. STOP USING the word "god" for the "LORD" YAHWEH IS LORD OF THE CREATION OF ALL, and not some "god-creature" nor to be likened to or categorized with such. THAT IS JUST PLAINE BLASPHEMY. Just like the Jews of old your all making a grave error of assumptions. The study of pagan idolatrous myths, pantheons, polytheism, theism, or the exalting of one of these over the others as MONOTHEISM is pure unadulterated ALL man made crappy. I believe that Satan(very dark mind) is a very evil human(s), elites, (which also is exactly what the Bible says), who took over the pre-flood world 1200years before the flood. Assigning a new "god" every year for 1200 years getting 1000+ gods, like in the Hinduism faith. Maybe using corrupted genetic science to create Nephilim, apemen, hybrid animals. Freaking the mind to produce demons, djinns, monsters, (which the Bible also say "do not exist"). Using secret societies of followers the Diblaim(devils themselves) to foster the "Occult Bull Crappy" yeahhh I know all about this very evident present evil in the world of today.
Are we ever going to be free from evil while here on earth? Jesus has set us free, but from what? Sin right, which is evil.
Great question! The answer! Yes! This is part of the Christian hope and what the cross did, is doing, and will do. The last part about what the cross "will do" is what Christians through the centuries have called the kingdom of God in full. This is the Christian hope that God will rule and reign on this Earth as king not just of the earth but the universe. Right now we live in what theologians call the now and the not yet of the kingdom of God meaning.. because of jesus's birth, death, and resurrection a multitude of things happened. Jesus starts off in the gospel of Matthew proclaiming "the kingdom of God has come near." And we see glimpses of Jesus ruling and raining as he heals people and breaks down the Jewish and gentile divide of blessing asks Jews and gentiles to follow him. He has the audacity to give everything that was part of Israels story to everybody in the world and more. But Jesus also says there will be a time where he has to leave and a time where he will come back. This time where Jesus comes back is the Christian hope and what Christians have faith for when we talk about the kingdom of God ruling and reigning on Earth as it is in heaven. If you want to visit that passage of hope it's Revelation 21 & 22.
Thanks for asking great question!
He’s coming back 🙏 for now we need to put all of our trust in Him and Him alone. Not media, politicians, government, etc. He already defeated the world. “Vengeance is mine” he saith
But just as at that time he who was born according to the flesh persecuted him who was born according to the Spirit, so also it is now.
Galatians 4:29
From now on, therefore, we regard no one according to the flesh. Even though we once regarded Christ according to the flesh, we regard him thus no longer.
2 Corinthians 5:16
Freakin amazing
Dear interviewer, a note for the future, dont try so hard to be part of the conversation and let interviewee finish an idea. The constant interruptions are quite distracting
100%
I can’t focus on what Tim is saying because the other guy is interrupting and talking too much😭
I hear ya 🤣
I have a question:
So God made humans at the bigining without an "elohim" nature and then the devil tempted them to become ones...? But God had already planed to make humans elohims... ?
Very interesting video by the way!!
@Melody Younger
Thanks for your comment. I am going to need some help tho if you can.
"become ones...?" become ones? I'm not sure what this is or means, if you could clarify a little what that means that would be helpful.
"without an elohim nature..." ? Again some help would be helpful for me .
Actually some more context on the whole comment might be helpful haha. Thanks :)
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My understanding is this: the serpent was part of the divine council and had God’s spirit and an ethereal form (remember Eden is the overlap of heaven and earth), and they were given authority over the skys. Mankind had God’s spirit and an earthly form (from clay),and they were given authority over the earth. Together they each had their own roles and were complete creations (Adam’s body is referred to as a temple). In Gen 3, you see mankind overstep their rule trying to be like the Elohim, and in Gen 6 you see the Elohim overstepping their rule to create the nephilim. Sorry if this doesn’t clarify, but God is a God of order and his “creations” each have their purpose.
I enjoy Michael Heiser’s work on this subject!
He mentioned ghosts towards the end. Are ghosts just demons manifesting themselves to deceive humans? Or are they actual dead human spirits?
All hail Amaterasu, Origin of all that's good and mother to us all!
So is elohim really a term for spiritual being
Do you have a better definition for the word 'God'?
Got a link to Tim mackie’s podcast that they referenced?
I don't know what app you use for your podcast so this for your browser but "Bible Project" podcast is the one referenced.
www.podbean.com/podcast-detail/ent49-399aa/BibleProject-Podcast
If you are interested in this topic of "Gods and gods" in particular Tim and Jon did a 22 pt series on just the word "god". Easy organized here .
bibleproject.com/podcast/series/god-series/
Everything is downstream of Christ.
What lol?
Brian Bull
The Son is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. 16 For in him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things have been created through him and for him. 17 He is before all things, and in him all things hold together. 18 And he is the head of the body, the church; he is the beginning and the firstborn from among the dead, so that in everything he might have the supremacy. 19 For God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him, 20 and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross.
I’m confused… how does this make sense of Isaiah 43:10? Heiser is reading non Biblical sources into the text.
““You are my witnesses,” declares YAHWEH, “and my servant whom I have chosen, so that you may know and believe me and understand that I am he. Before me no ELOHIM was formed, nor will there be one after me.”
Isaiah 43:10
@ryan Schatz
Good question. I believe In Isaiah 43v10 that "declares the LORD" is נְאֻם־ יְהוָ֔ה in Hebrew. LORD in this case is the proper name of the God of Israel. (singular).
"Before me no god was formed" is לֹא־ אֵ֔ל נ֣וֹצַר in Hebrew. god in this case is אֵ֔ל (’êl). "El" is singular and from the context up above we already know what "god" the author is talking about, in this case the LORD, the God of israel.
So the author is saying or God is saying there is none like him. ex... Big G gods. Different level of rule and rain and authority. This is not saying there are not other elohim.
The hard thing to read correctly is when your reading hebrew god can be singular, plural, or a proper name as in this case.
I hope that helps
Blessings
This also might help with your thinking of the hebrew word elohim.
bibleproject.com/podcast/theme-god-e1-god-or-gods/
@@BrianBull Thanks for your reply, and also, thanks for noting my mistake in putting in the plural. However, I don't understand your response. El = god (singular) and Elohim = gods (plural), so 5xEl = Elohim. This verse says that not even one god (El) was formed before me and not even one god (El) will be formed after me. The plural is not required here because the point is that there is no other god, not even one. Isaiah 44:8 confirms this saying "Is there any besides Me?...I know of none." El is not a big "G" god in every instance. In Exod 34:14 "...you shall not worship any other god...", the text uses the same word El to refer to another god. Is that another big "G" god? Same for Deut 3:24 and Deut 32:12 (foreign 'god'). So in Psalm 82:1, are you saying that God appointed "divine beings" to judge men but because they did a poor job, God will judge them and they will die like mere men? And this despite God says there is no other el I know not one??? I have to side with God on this one since He clearly knows more than me and the texts in Isaiah are more than clear enough.
@@BrianBull One more... Isa 45:21 says "...there are no other gods beside Me..." (gods here is the plural elohim).
@@BrianBull Who is God's congregation that He stands amongst? Deut 23:14 says that He walks amongst His people in their camp. Who are the rulers that are not doing what is right except the rulers and judges amongst His people? Maybe less reading of extra-Biblical sources and more careful reading of the Biblical text is advised. Imagine all those poor people who don't have time to read ANE documents... how could they really understand and know what their Bible means??
This verse says that not even one god (El) was formed before me and not even one god (El) will be formed after me.
Response- I believe you can add (was formed like me) "This verse says that not even one god (El) was formed before me and not even one god (El) will be formed after me." Since we already know we are talking about the God of Israel.
In Exod 34:14 "...you shall not worship any other god...", the text uses the same word El to refer to another god. Is that another big "G" god? Same for Deut 3:24 and Deut 32:12 (foreign 'god').
Response- We don't know, it's not specified its just elohim. Not a proper name (it could be) so just a category of a titled type of being.
Exod 34v14 14 "Do not worship any other god, for the Lord, whose name is Jealous, is a jealous God."
Do not worship any other god (El/singular) (also a title NOT a name), for the Lord (Yahweh Elohim) (title... God of Israel) , whose name is Jealous, is a jealous God (jealous Yahweh Elohim)."
So in Psalm 82:1, are you saying that God appointed "divine beings" to judge men but because they did a poor job, God will judge them and they will die like mere men?
Response- Tim could do a better job here then I.
bibleproject.com/podcast/theme-god-e3-spiritual-warfare/
Are there any other Jewish scholars who see this or do you think you have new revelation?
When you say "Jewish scholars who see this" what specifically are you referencing? What is "this"?
On your new revelation comment I personally don't see any new ideas here. Please timestamp and explain I would love to explore what you think is new here.
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@@BrianBull I’ve watched many of the Bible Project videos which is why I clicked on this discussion. Perhaps I used the wrong words “Jewish scholars”. What I mean is both Jewish and Christian people who have studied the Bible. This discussion never once mentions the Trinity-unless I missed it. I understand that there is a spiritual realm and we are in a spiritual battle in this world but it in this discussion you are elevating spiritual/demonic beings to god like status. Is there one God in three persons? Is Christ God incarnate? I did not get that from this discussion. If you are NOT saying that then is this new revelation that you two discovered?
No issues with "Jewish Scholar", Bible nerds, christian people all good there :).
" but it in this discussion you are elevating spiritual/demonic beings to god like status."
"Like" capital G type status for sure. I think what Tim is trying to say @3:24 is interpreting the Hebrew (which is all you can really do) this seems to be what the text is saying. How do you categorize a elohim from another elohim? Well you put something in front of it to categorize it.
"Is there one God in three persons?" Yes, but I would argue we don't find that out until the new testament. Obviously we know in Genesis 1v1 there is someone God is talking to but not really sure who till later.
" Is Christ God incarnate? " Absolutely
@@BrianBull Thank you for taking the time to respond to my comments.
@@annaroode8594 u may check Sam shamounian youtube channel, he explains trinity referring both OT and NT
So why don't all preachers talk about this. They say the devil. I mean I only know you and Dr Michael Heiser that covers this
@Kimberly Sollenberger
Your guess is as good as mine lol.
On the cross Jesus cried out in a loud voice Éloi Éloi lama sabachthani which means My God My God why have you forsaken me?
Incredible time when God the Father turned his back on his Son because the Son had become sin for us.
In ancient Hebrews the letters ‘I’m’ added at the end turns the letter from singular to plural.
Examples: Cherub equals on cherub add ‘im’ it becomes many cherub or cherubim. Same for Saraf vs sarafim etc.
Eloi becomes Eloim
Keep in mind that God is ONE. So it’s sort of like: 1 X 1 X 1 X 1 = 1 and not 1 + 1 + 1 = 3
The idea of trinity or 3 in one is not accurate.
With that said to equate the Lord the God of all man kind to other so called god of Medians and or other group of people is simply put not Biblical. Although to them their gods might be as real as can be, to the GREAT I Am they are nothing but idols. They can’t hear they can’t save. I believe it’s a grave mistake to even attempt to call the false god with Yahweh.
When God the Father was creating the world, the Holy Spirit was hovering over the earth waiting for. Commands to execute.
The book of John tells us that the Word became flesh and made its dwelling among us. It also says that the world was created by him and for him. Nothing that has been created was created without him: Jesus.
That is Eloim. Not any other god spirit or otherwise.
"Although to them their gods might be as real as can be, to the GREAT I Am they are nothing but idols."
I think that's why this nuanced conversation is so critical. It's all about "although to them".
According to who? Whos perspective is why this conversation is so complex.
It would be easier to call other elohim idols and call it a day but then we would only have 9 commandments not 10 (you could more or less combined the 1st and the 2nd).
I think what Mackie (in this limited amount of time) is trying to parse out here is the same word is used, elohim, for the trinitarian community God (God of Israel, The Lord your God) and god(s) in Exodus 20v3 so I think Mackie is starting from the basis that the Hebrew bible uses the same word then parsing out the differences of why The Lord your God is really different in every way but does fall into a spiritual being category.
Tim did a very well 22 episode series just on the word "God" and built his way up going through the Hebrew Scriptures working his way up to Greek and New Testament.
bibleproject.com/podcast/series/god-series/
Grace & Peace
I also might be completely missing what your trying to say as well if so please disregard lol.
I recommend looking into the work of Dr Michael Heiser for more clarity on this subject. He does a great job breaking down the text and explaining how these things function. He brings a lot of scripture and extra-biblical references to the table and they are all very coherent. To say there are other elohiem isn't to say they are equal to Yaweh by any means. I don't think that is what Tim is trying to do here.
@@JaiACurtis Thanks so much for the recommended reading. I would absolutely agree with you!
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Or he was quoting David
He’s talking over Tim Mackie way too much through the middle of the interview (around mn 21)…it comes off as insecure…(correction, deeply insecure.) …wow.
True
America is Babylon...let that sink in.
...
It sure is