Marantz AV 10 Advanced Bass Feature NOBODY Else Has?!?
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- čas přidán 27. 08. 2024
- In this video, we do a deep dive into the advanced bass management settings of the Marantz AV 10 15.4CH AV Processor. We discuss what the "LFE + Main" setting does and a feature that is NEW to Marantz and Denon that NO mainstream AV company currently offers - LFE Bass routing. LFE Bass routing was only available on very expensive AV processors from the likes of Trinnov, Storm Audio and DataSat. Marantz just upped the ante in their bag of bass management tricks by including this in the AV 10. We caution ANYONE considering to use this feature to do so with extreme caution and ONLY IF their speakers are capable of handling the extreme levels of deep bass that can result by routing LFE to them.
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I can confirm both Cinema 50 and 40 has the same new bass management features. It came unannounced with the latest firmware that gave Dirac Live, the new Atmos Surround Height speaker configuration and etc. I was surprised and felt very happy like you!❤
Gene, you look like Mr. fantastic from the fantastic four. With all the audio information in your head you are Mr Fantastic!!!
Great feature. One thing to say is that the subwoofer channel is +10 higher in volume than other channels when a point one mix is being used. If you set the speakers to use -10db of point one sub bass, then that brings the bass back in line to the speaker levels, and shouldn't blow your front speakers up. Most floor standers should be able to use this feature as long as you use at least -10db on distributed point one bass.
Another thing to point is that you could lose bass by using this feature. Because, if your mains aren't perfectly time aligned with your subs, they wont sum as well and when subs arent time aligned well you lose bass. i think people need to keep that in mind. Getting your mains perfectly time-aligned with your subs is exceptionally difficult. It's not the same as time aligning 2 subwoofers.
I'm a dealer from Denmark and Cinema 50 has this feature to. Wasn't sure what it would do so thank you for clarifying 👍 Cool feature for some customers that just can't get enough 😉
Thanks Gene! The IMAX standard calls for all full-range speakers, and this feature would be so useful if one has some beastly speakers!
I can't wait to try this feature full blast on my Coby home theater speakers!!! 🔈🔉🔊
Hey Gene, one thing about the THX crossovers. It would be nice if D&M would let you change the slop on the crossover to the mains. The reason ist that 12 db oct is only feasible when you main speakers are falling of at that rate in room (or are equalized so that they do so). When using ported speakers this is usually not the case. Those speakers mostly have a lower F3 than 80Hz and then would acoustically yield an asymmetric crossover and thus to a cancellation due to different phase response of 12 db oct filter and 24 db oct filters. You would now have to invert the subs but still the sub and mains would not add up to unity. For most ported speakers a symmetric 24 db oct filter would be the better solution.
Agreed, different filter slopes would be nice. I will mention it in my review.
I can confirm the Denon AVR-X4800H also has the setting available. Although, I do not think I have big enough speakers to use the function (Arendal 1723 monitors).
No, the 1723 towers would be more appropriate at a reduced LFE input.
Definitely interesting! I normally don't use LFE outputs, I just use the left/right set to large and drive the subs with one output of a miniDSP. That way I can cross the mains and subs where ever I want. It may be worthwhile to consider the AV10 and to utilize its four independent sub outputs however to help reduce some room mode problems. Even without the four independent LFE channels, this ability to direct LF information could be a big benefit.
As for the surrounds, each side of the room is using a miniDSP Flex balanced. Currently just one input is used and one output for the side surrounds. Once I get rear speakers built, the other input and one more output will be used. Since this Flex will have both side and rear information coming into it and there are two unused outputs, I'm thinking I could put some woofer capacity on those outputs. With this AV10 feature of directing low frequency information to basically any output, that could help with the room mode issues.
Thanks for posting this video, it definitely gives me something to think about.
Certainly the most excting new feature for AVRs in years!
Finally an "everyman" like myself can buy 3 or 4 subs and enjoy more room filling, even bass without having a degree in accoustcs thx to the automatic measuring process. I would be very much interested to know if the Audyssey calibration actually works reliably with 3 or 4 subs in terms of setting the phase and delay to achieve a tight bass response...
Also the tacticle transducer feature is very welcome. You still need an external DSP option like a mini dsp 2x4 for the transducers though because you have to be able to set a delay to get them in sync with the subs and 40 Hz crossover is too high for transducers but it' stil nice that we don't need any workarounds anymore to run Audyssey with transducers in use. I hope that they will implement more DSP options for the transducers in the feature.
I was waiting for this feature a long time as well Gene! :D I never had full range mains to deliver all the LFE to but I always wanted to get the LFE signal via the mains above a certain crossover because I felt like the sub couldn't deliver as tight and punchy bass above a certain frequency. This was especially annoying when I had tower speakers and two SVS PC 2000s.
The SVS could deliver thounderous bass especially considering I had them in a pretty small room of about ~25 m2 but they couldn't deliver the tight kick bass, my mains were capable of.
For music a lower crossover of around 50 or 60 Hz worked great but the problem is that the LFE signal goes up to 120Hz so the sub gets the biggest chunk of an LFE- impact even if you have your mains crossed over lower. That's why I eventually changed them out for a sealed Arendal Sub 1 which worked better for tighter bass higher up.
Now this problem isn't that important to me anymore since I now have dual SVS SB 2000 Pros in with a XTZ Cinema system (M6s front, S5 rear) and they work really well together in my room but I would still like to be able to send the above-80Hz-portion of the LFE- signal to the mains, is that possible with these new Audyssey reveivers?
I want one right now!
This is part of why I believe in using the REL high level connection, makes every channel full range giving the most immersive experience I’ve experienced. Great video Gene!
Simply fabulous as usual.
Great info update Gene, love how you put things so its easier to understand 👌.
This is an incredible feature because the Legacy Audio Focus SE speakers are truly bass capable and should be able to route LFE. I love Sound United!!!
The Monoprice HTP-1, a 16 ch, with up to 5 subs system with (optional) DIRAC, but isn't in the stratospheric price range, has the feature, called "Bass Enhancement (AKA Bass Reinforcement)", that's actually how it's shown in the manual, which has a nice concise reminder:
"Bass Reinforcement will have no effect on typical stereo material as there is no LFE signal. It will have no effect if there are no large speakers in the system. It will have no effect if there is no subwoofer in the system."
BUT, if you have have Dirac bass management on, the feature isn't available, all bass management is turned over to the Dirac system, this includes large/small and crossover frequency settings for speakers in all channels.
Hi Gene! Great find and always great info on your channel/site! Any suggestions with using a GoldenEar Triton Reference? Full range capable but also has LFE and power subs built in.
Yes this works for them. Fullrange and lfe redirect
Denon and Marantz need to start telling their customers about their firmware updates. I just got two updates to my Denon X4500H (i.e. about 5 years from its release). I have no idea what they did, and there is no no way to find out either. I really hate companies that do that.
Feature exists with Marantz Cinema 40.
BEST PROCESSOR REVIEWER AROUND !
Indeed. You are doing all the good things!
This is also on the Marantz Cinema 30 now, but only for the fronts (wich makes sense). Don't see it being usable unless you have towers with powered subs built in.
What a feel good story! It’s sweet of Harmon to leave you that little easter egg.
Maybe I’m just spoiled with video game menus, and decades of really polished software experiences. But I feel like the time has come that these “Premium features” are just standard features. They don’t seem all that hard to pull off, but maybe with more channels at higher resolutions it becomes a technical challenge. But I’m not convinced it is.
When we got hexa and quad cores rolling around in the bargain bins these days, I don’t feel it’s hardware constrained or software constrained to have these features, it feels more like someone just needs to decide to offer it, and the rest is just off the shelf and a few coding keystrokes away. (Easier said than done)
I feel the market could realistically pull off a full featured affordable processor in the $500 range. Especially as everyone on earth cuts back their margins in this latest economic slowdown.
There’s nothing like desperation to swing the pendulum of inflation. Especially as part hoarding turns to part clearance. Parts that were overstocked out of fear around the supply chain soon becomes a storage fee liability, and selling stockpiles turns to a way to get much needed operating capital. These parts entering the market offer new opportunities for budget oriented products, as companies ask themselves what they can do this new landscape of desperation driven clearance.
I’ve seen first hand the amount of hifi available on the used market go way up the past 4 months, the word “kef” for example used to have 2-3 results, well now it’s more like 8-13 and the items aren’t moving either, it’s the same stuff lingering and piling up, getting discounted and still persisting. Clearly people are wanting money now more than things, it’s shifting into money demand, and I suspect this to be true of individuals and companies, rippling through the whole economy as everyone struggles to pay the bills and is stretched thin.
Perhaps even more so the high end demand which relies of asset appreciation to fund their spending. We are not in a covid bull run fueled by low interest rates. Counter to the typical resiliency of the high end which usually maintains it’s relative spending power during economic slowdown.
Meanwhile if the big conglomerate’s have too fat a margin, it leaves room for competition to enter the market, especially out of Shenzen. And if they don’t offer a simple affordable processor then we may see another showing up on ali express and tao bao for $150 with free shipping.
But I digress, these features are cool and thank god we have them. And by we I mean people that have the money for the flagships, which isn’t me, and no amount of that feature being exclusive to the high end is going to move me up market. But it may differentiate their product from their competitor in the market I am in. Which is why I feel they should offer these features at every market segment, rather than just the high end. Because it’s just not good enough to be an upsell, especially when I feel it’s not technically challenging to pull off. It kinda reflects poorly on the brand to hold out on the customer with a turn key feature. There’s a reason Emotiva is gaining ground on these beloved conglomerates. There’s enough other features to upsell the high end of the flagship. Bass management is so technically nerdy and niche that it’s better to put it universally across the whole product range and allow the brand as a whole to outshine the others. There’s too much competition not to, at least in my opinion, I watch youtube in a basement! Lol
I've been a fan of Audioholics since 2004 when I was researching the purchase of my Yamaha Rx-Z9. I've since built a Atmos based home theater with Yamaha CX-A5100 and Parasound JC-1, A31 and A 21 powering RBH SX-661 and Status Acoustic Decimo's. All pretty much purchased on Gene's writings. I'm thankful I can make a few clicks on my computer to find good advice from an expert, so I appreciate his efforts and opinion. My question is: where does one find and stream super high-fidelity movie sources like those found within a good Blu-Ray? For me, it's becoming difficult to justify future purchases of improved equipment because the fidelity of streamed audio seems to be compromised.
would love to have the amp and pre amp
I think it may be time to retire the “LFE+main” nomenclature. It’s always been a little confusing, even after I learn what it does and understand why it’s phrased that way as a subwoofer setting.
I think now as we get more bass management options, and allot more access to competing room correction software. It would be a good time to revisit the convention of these titles. Same with large and small.
Any suggestions? Brainstorming?
I have tower speakers all around as my bed layer. I, also, have a 10 sealed subwoofer per tower and have been routing the signal using miniDSP(s) and controlling what gets what via the MiniDSP per channel. I would love to add the LFE channel to these subs.
How can I use this and continue the separation? I guess simply to continue with the crossovers I have currently per tower and per subwoofer?
Yes..... if the towers are protected and the signal through speaker wires is independantly split to both..... i use a piece of disco equipement which is an external splitter to split to tops and subs, capable of 1,000watt filtering per channel split at 135hz..... only £48 for each speaker, sounds great and is clear..... 12db slopes
SR 8015 does support 2 channels + sub , option “pure AUTO” all speakers set to small and 2 subs. Sub is set to only LFE
Denon AVC-X3800H also has the settings as in the video!
Yeah! I have it in denon 3800... With my small jbl a180 I'll try it at -10db -15db tonight. 😊
I can't hear difference between 0 and -20db with main+lfe. 😄 Maybe with better speakers...
hello Gene, what do you think of the sound of the Yamaha receiver compared to Denon? I liked the Yamaha better to listen to music and you? Do you like the Denon or the Yamaha better?
Thank you Gene!!
Hi Gene greeting from South Africa Thanks for this useful video. My pre ordered my AV10 will be arriving in May. My fronts are Klipsh RP8000F's and my surrounds/backs are the RP600m's. Do you think this new function will work with my speakers.
For the fronts, yes, but -10 or 15db.
BEST REVIEWER AROUND !
Why does denon/marantz web menu not show the currently playing info screen!?!?! ;(
I have Klipsch Jubilees in front with Khorns for rears.
Klipsch Palladium is my center.
With JL f113 sub.
I know the Jubillees and Khorns would work well with this.
Probably wouldn’t use for the center. Especially since those are a rarer discontinued model at this point.
Silly question. But this would be a good match? I’m currently using an older McIntosh pre pro that doesn’t have all of the correction etc programs on it.
The Marantz cinema 50 has it. I was wondering would it be useful to use this with the def tech d17s?
Sparingly -10 or -15db
With dirac bass control, do we still need to use a mini dsp to tune the subs?
the lfe plus main setting been around for a while same as the lfe being produced by all speakers set to large when no subwoofer is selected
No the only time LFE goes to the main channels is when the sub channel is turned off. I clearly defined what LFE + Main actually does in this video.
Hey Gene, would you consider the Polk R700 capable of using this feature? This may give more people an idea of "bass capable'.
Yes, but -10 or -15dB to be safe.
Thanks for sharing 💚👍
I’ve been reading that the cinema 40 has better sound and bass than the 50? Is that true. Plus, I have pb16 and pb4000, and just want something to make me deaf, to me the 50 did seem to have decreased bass and felt hollow
Or would I be better with the AV10
Gene, I'm loving what Denon marantz is doing with bass management this time around. Where is LFE only option for the tactile transducer output instead of all channels combined?
Sub4 is dedicated for tactile transducer. I believe it's only LFE but will have to check to confirm.
Funny my old Pioneer sc97 has a similar capability in the deep dive MCCAC menu I fully range towers with powered subs as my surround and back surround channels and I get extraordinary bass response form my rear channels. So that's 4 subs in rear and sides along with 2 12" monoprice monolith subs up front! You haven't heard Top Gun Maverick till you've hear it through my system! I'm literally in the cockpit! Smh
Pioneer never allowed for LFE bass redistribution to other channels. This is unique to Denon and Marantz as of this year.
If you were thinking of a pre-amp processor to do a good size say 20'x30' home theater room, with say JTR 212RT's or the 215RT's for L,R,C, (4) - JTR dual 18" subs, with at least JTR sides, JTR rear effects, and at least 4 Atmos speakers and possibly later expand further would this Marantz AV10 be a contender? I was thinking of the Anthem AV90 or Trinnov altitude 16 but have enjoyed Marantz processors when my system was not as elaborate. The price is very attractive but am I missing anything spending less with the Marantz?
The Trinnov has more advanced bass management and speaker remapping but primitive HDMI capability compared to Marantz. If you don't need those extra features, Marantz is a better option in your case.
When will you get the new Integra 8.4?
This isn’t related , however since you have access to the Marantz people, are they finally going to make another stand alone DAC and maybe streamer ? The only one they have now is the SACD 30n which is advanced.
The others are ΔΣ based DACs without their MMM or DSD
Will they make a high quality DAC and streamer like so many others are doing ?
I still have their Marantz HD DAC1 and it’s one of the best DACs I’ve ever tried and have it in my main system.
It’s that good. But they need to make an update
Thanks in advance.
Are marantz bringing out a new 11 channel processor and power amp combo
Hi Gene, quick question. RF7IIIs with AV10. Bass management LFE+Main? LFE redirect? Thanks in advanced
If you can get good integration with your subs, definitely run them large and route some LFE to them.
@Audioholics Thank you sir!
doesn't the cinema 40 and 50 have this also?
Yes
When the Yamaha Aventage line was doing separates, the pre-pro had this feature. I have no idea if the Aventage receiver line has it.
Yamaha never had lfe redistribution feature. It does have a bass both feature to copy mains bass to the subs when mains are set large.
When you are assigning the lfe distribution to front speakers -6db or -10 db, front speakers must be set to large or small and subwoofer output is set to Lfe+main or Lfe only?
2) Please also tell me in general, should we use lfe only or Lfe+main with front speakers set to small. Is it beneficial to do so ?
Lfe + main and large.....
I think the Denon A1H has this as well…
It does!
In your first slide we see the same big fingerprint that was at the end of your unboxing video. Matt finish - not so good.
Thanks
Dufferent slopes for different folks!
Do I have to set up all that base management before calibration? In other words, if I have calibrated my system, can I change those base management settings or do I have to calibrate again?
No, you can reconfigure after you calibrate.
@@Audioholics Thanks! Btw. you have a great channel!
Using Tactile Transducer gives new meaning to “Shake your booty”.
Did Gene find a bug in the directional bass management?
Not that I'm aware of. The 2nd order recombination is likely deliberate.
Im sorry if this is wrong question for this video but i put this on your latest video in hoping you would see it. What would be a good upgrade from a sony str-dh590? I have all polk speakers, 2 floor standing signature s55's, 2 polk small speakers for surround, and 2 Klipsch powered subwoofers. I feel i can get better sound from a better receiver maybe?
The world is your oyster..... seek and ye shall find..... 😂😂😂
Hi Gene, can you do this on Arc Genesis?
Cutting through all the Tape.... The Anthem AVM90 is better than this, correct??
Great video btw!
👃🔥🔥💨 like car audio when you throw away the passive crossovers and go active. Better know what you are doing.
Hi Gene, I have recently purchased AV8805A. Please give the major upgrades from AV8805A to AV10. And does fully balanced AV10 has any advantage over non balanced AV8805A?
Do you have large bass capable speakers? If you are setting to small, i would hold off as the 8805A is more than capable and just as good. 5:00 mark in the video.,
@@duaplex1 I have Magnat Signature 1109 floor standing speakers. I have dual Rythmik FV15HP subwoofers. so thanks a lot for the answer.
Great question...
If I have 4 subs which are going from the balanced sub 1-4 outs, how can I connect an amp/4 buttkickers to this unit? Would it go via the unbalanced?
Sure
Everyone else with large front speakers does it with a speaker-level sub input and the subwoofer's low-pass filter. I see nothing wrong with that.
More options more better
Hello, I want to know the difference maratnz between av, pm and am and who gives a nice deep bass
Seek and ye shall find...... all the manuals are downloadable 🙂
You could even shift your butt and go to a display centre and demo them, but that would cost money right?..... so you will risk 10k purchase on someone else's opinion right?.......
Why did you even ask the question?
I want to install a powerful HI-FI system in terms of clear sound and deep bass. I don't know what to buy. I don't care about the price
Why put LFE to mains?
Only if the mains are capable enough to support the other subs.
@Audioholics Wow, that was quick. Thanks for the reply, Gene! 👏
What do you mean? Subs itself not capable of playing at reference level (115), so relax them a bit by rerouting LFE to mains, or what? I don't get it.
👍🏻😎
Jean this is all very informenent but this marantz is totally unafordable €14000
Still cheap compared to trinnov 32 haha 😆
Lower models also have it...
AV10 is €7000 not €14000 😂 still expensive though.
@@ericshutter5305 it comes to €14000 when you add power amp
Use headphones.... i think they are cheaper?.... 😂👍🏻🇬🇧
I heard it here 1st
Imadgine having 4 subs, than adding another 7 from your 12"+ speakers..... who wants 11 subs ??????? Crazy man just crazy.........🤪
Hi Gene--your voice is out of sync with the video.
Streamyard is doing some weirdness like this. It doesn't go out of sync on all my computers or mobile devices so I can't trace what's going on.