World Building With Magic D&D
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- čas přidán 18. 07. 2022
- Magic is more than the spells on you character sheet, magic is a way to shape the world around you, so how does magic shape the world you build a a DM?
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For me, the fun of "magic" is in the fluff. I use the basic mechanics, but add lots of color details. One must not only study a spell to prepare it, this must be done having access to heavy spell books, material components and equipment to brew-up the spell and commit it to "memory". Then one goes out adventuring equipped with spells ready to cast. In Vance one doesn't lay down in a dungeon and spend a few hours in the morning rememorizing spells. My magic users return to their laboratory for access to tomes, ingredients and paraphernalia in order to renew their spells. Makes magic feel more powerful, more real and more special doing it this way, I think.
Cool
I like it. But I like my wizards to be out exploring for months on end far from home. So that don’t quite work for me. But I do like it.
@@jenningscunningham642 Here's an idea. Your wizard might have a travelling laboratory on wheels that is stationed in front of the dungeon. Or he might have a pocket dimension, or just teleportation. But then again, that might defeat the purpose of this 😅
As someone who loves playing wizards. I do all this in my head, I have a sticky note that has all my components and I role-playing using the components to create the spell. My DMs never care one way or the other.
A Low Magic World feels unlikely for 5th Edition to emulate, given that Cantrips are "At Will" casting.
Agreed
I require higher ability scores for higher level spells or risk serious issues. It limits dipping into casting classes and requires investment in ability score increases. A score of 13 is needed for risk free cantrips.
But what if casters are incredibly rare in that 5e world? Perhaps a PC is the *only* living wizard!
You’d have to cut cantrips, and hammer home material components.
To be frank I always about the spell’s material component. Thats your method of control. I get to know when you can cast the big gun spell cus i gave the thing in the first place. Ive considered, but haven’t actually clamped down on spells like fireball with an expensive material component but i think about it all the time.
Dwimmermount has a Vancian tone. When I ran it in 5e, I reclassified all Cantrips except Prestidigitation as level 1 spells. Seemed to work well.
In my setting most kingdoms require a spell caster, except elves, to register with the collage of wizardry within that particular region to be allowed to cast spells while within the area. This, of course, is only possible if those kingdoms are in good standing with each other. Each college controls certain spells and those that learn them must enter the kings service at the end of their schooling (similar to countries that have mandatory military service in our world). Wizards are indoctrinated at a young age so they're normally pretty patriotic. It's considered an act of war for another wizard to share their spells with or have their spells taken from them by another college. It's basically unheard of for wizards to share magic between other colleges, this is mostly due to the conditioning implemented in school but also due to the nature of magic and how it changes how magic users see the world. There are shared spells across the world like fire ball or lightning bolt but several of the more powerful magics are only held by certain kingdoms and their whole society is sometimes built around that knowledge. Vast amounts of spell knowledge has been lost (not yet found) or has been horded by rogue wizards that have been corrupted in their search for more power (at least that's how it's spun in the kingdoms they defected from). Wizards caught casting without papers are often jailed or even burned and in some locations spell casters are seen as ill omens and are driven out or outright killed. Spell books are soul bound to wizards so upon their death the book turns to ash and each wizard has their own language when copying spells into their books so the only way the information can be extracted is through torture or magic if such spells are available to the interrogator. Scrolls found in the world will often be written in ancient languages from a more golden era and must be deciphered before they can be copied into the magic users spell book. Any magics found out in the world must also be turned over to the wizards college or the wizard will face horrific consequences. With all of this set in place it makes it to where magic in my setting feels very strange and esoteric.
That’s very cool
I personally try to keep magic-users as somewhat rare and use the magic rules in "Wondrous Weavings Warped & Weird". It goes well in my Dolmenwood campaign with fairies and stuff. The rules are PWYW in Drivethrurpg for anyone that wants check it out.
It basically is the same Vancian magic in OSE/BX but it adds the possibility of "breaking the rules" with the caveat of suffering a Magical Mishap if you failed a check. For example, preparing multiple copies of the same spells in your spell slots can result in unintended consequences like trying to cast sleep on the orcs but instead it polymorphs them into a dragon.
How is that campaign setting over all? do you enjoy it? is forest travel pretty hazardous?
Interesting
@@underfire987 Yeah I like the Setting, although I'm using a tweaked version of it instead of following the stuff Gavin posts on Patreon. I kept the map, the factions and some stuff about the lore but I fill in the blanks mostly with my own stuff.
About Travel, unless you go near Nagwood or Hags addle, the terrain is not as treacherous. However it being all forest, makes the dense parts slow to travel and prone to getting lost if you don't have a ranger type character and try to get out of the roads. What makes the travel dangerous is not the terrain but what weird stuff you find in the forest. Mostly Fae stuff, like fairy rings, enchanted parts of the forest or the fairies themselves.
In folklore, dealing with fairies always leads to trouble as they function on very different set of rules than human's. As a rule of thumb, what you find trivial they treat as of uttermost importance and the serious stuff they just don't care or find it funny. Also, the whimsical stuff from fairy tales is a good thing and great source of adventures or magic items that are not just +1 to a roll.
Y’know this has me thinking of a system where the amount of spells is based less on level and more on material things; basically a “cheap” spell book can hold up to five spells a wizard takes from their collection of scrolls kept safe in their base. Spell books inscribed this way are stuck with those spells permanently, and more expensive/rare books can hold more spells of greater level.
I just like the idea of a wizard digging through their collection of spell books looking for one marked “utility” or “dungeon delve”
Reminds me of EZD6 Hedge Mage System
Indeed, knave works something like that - but the books as far as I remember are permanent, they just take up a “slot” to carry them
This was sort of done an old school advanced dumpster dragons second edition I believe. They were two types of spell books. You had your great tones that were very large and cumbersome and then you had your traveling spell book. I believe a traveling spell books were like 100 pages and any spell would take up d4's worth of pages. So it had a finite number of spills in the end you would have it. Although it never made sense to me that a first level spelled could end up taking more pages than a fifth level spell but that was the system as far as I remember it.
This is basically how staves work in Pathfinder 2E (and also PF 1E and some other systems, I think). It might be neat to think about a world where casters can't memorize spells at all and instead are completely dependent on their staves/wands/grimoires or similar equipment.
In my games (OSR+5E); Elves can enchant items (@ 9th level), and use spells from the Druid spell list. Dwarves can use magic runes carved in stone or metal or etched on paper (one-time-use) in the process of forging a weapon or a piece of armor (@ 9th level), their spells mostly come from the Wizard spell list. Wizards (male only) can craft potions (@ 3rd level), create magic items that use charges (@ 5th level), and use spells from the Wizard/Magic-User spell list. Witches/Sorceresses (female only) can craft potions (@ 3rd level), craft limited use magic items (@ 5th level and are usually single use, and most likely used for the purpose of protection), and use spells from the Cleric spell list. All the lists are slightly modified to my liking and made to make sense for each race/class. I don't use Druids, Warlocks, Sorcerers, or any other spellcaster classes in my games.
Nice
Ever see the "Witches" npc article in the Dungeon magazine?.....I think you might really like some parts of that article....it's definitely a cool article.
When I read the older DnD editions I find a mentor student relationship and not so much ‘schools’.
I think it fits nicely with your wizards stuck in towers. They have students/slaves that will travel farther and quest for them. Each PC wizard is given a spell book by their mentor. I think the only proper thing would be to have the wizard PC get new spells at level up from their mentor’s tower.
This makes a role play opportunity and places to put plot hooks.
Sure that can certainly work - of course why is this wizard doing all the work at the tower and the PC just visits on occasion for a new spell?
@@BanditsKeep bigger spells require broader and more exotic components and more dangerous energies to master. The tower is for privacy but also to avoid stray magical energies while researching new big magics.
I always thought that wizards regaining their spells after resting basically just means that they memorize their spells while resting. Keep in mind, the difference between a short and a long rest is that a short rest is basically sitting down for an hour doing something not intensive and a long rest is sleeping. So basically the wizard memorizes the spells and then goes to sleep to regain his energy.
Pretty much BTB except you memorize after you sleep - but you still need you spellbook
It determines a few special situations. I can roll when a wilderness encounter happens. A panther can sneak up on them at night or follow them until they set camp. That means Ralph-Gandalf rushing out of his tent with a kalashnikov and nightrobe doesn't have new spells. But he might have spells left from the previous day like an unused Speak With Animals.
I came to the conclusion that adapting the magic rules to the story is paramount to ensure magic will not break your plot acvidentally.
So building the world around magic to tell that particular story is the result.
I favor the memorizing spell idea and hunting rare spells by finding scrolls.
Cool
I love playing Warlock! which is based on British old school Fighting Fantasy, spells just have one power word with a simple description, like Blast, Feather, Lock, Read, Silence, etc. Super easy to understand and magic is available to everyone, but a few wizards choose to specialise in magic and searching for more spells. No levels, No spell slots, No “memorising”, just wild magic that you can cast and even mix up, like casting Fog to fill an area with heavy fog or cast Fog + Poison to create a poisonous gas cloud.
Cool
Like in divinity?
This is another terrific video with a great amount of useful information and questions to answer. I like all types of magic systems except for Vancian, but that never prevented me from playing D&D. When I began working on my current world-and probably my last as I’m glad the way it is developing. I essentially wanted a world where everything could be possible but within certain areas, times, and/or situations. I took inspiration from many sources including StarWars d6, Palladium Fantasy, TORG, Buddhism, 1800’s pseudoscience, Heavy Metal & Epic magazines, and YT videos along with yours. I had to develop simple rules that worked for skills, combat, spells, psionics, creature special abilities, contests, and keep it flexible for additions. Since I absolutely love rolling all types of dice on the table, and want to keep it simple, the players only compare dice and count successes. I would like to eventually release this and have a few friends who are helping me with testing and their ideas. It’s a lot more work than I expected.
I’ve always explained that not everyone in my world can manipulate the energies of magic, but the PC’s just so happen to all be able to, if they have the stats. I like the way setting of The Black Company handled who gets magic - keep it ambiguous.
Cool - and all those (few) people just happen to be in the same party 😊
Omg love black company, I do like how the sorcerers were focused on one specific type of magic that also reflect a major part of there character and history. A brilliant combination and even though its vague still gave the feeling that one had to suffer and sacrifice much to gain such powers and having such abilities made you quite the target for even more terrible and powerful magic users.
Thanks for the food for thought, always appreciate your opinions on D&D topics. Have a great day :)
Thanks 😊
Great movie cover, over there! Loved the intro, with the woman talking.... That was so immersive. Thanks for the video, another interesting one.
🙏🏻🙏🏻
We mostly have stuck to the "standard" of d&d magic use. Though throughout the editions (up until 4th and 5th) there have been some interesting takes on it. Dragonlance was of course the picker of magic systems. Darksun as some will know, casting spells killed the world off bit by bit so that fireball might save you in the moment could end up biting you later. Eberron was basically magic everywhere, taking the place of the industrial age in the real world in favor of magic. But also produced magewrights and artificers, which was cool to a point. More of a mood setting. Personally my first encounter with differing magic rules was Spelljammer. Not that the casting was different just that it was the first magitech type setting we played. Spelljammer's explanation for everything was priceless, "It's magic and it knows that it's magic." That line of text made flying bug ships in space make sense.
For sure!
Dark sun in my honest opinion has been D&Ds most unique, original and dare I say it, best setting they have ever made. Really cannot think of any other setting within D&D that equates that great work of fiction.
@@underfire987 OG Darksun was fun yes! I never looked at the 4e stuff for it once seeing Goliaths replaced Half-Giant (and other 4e blunders imo). You knew when the dm said you had to start play at third level you were in for some hurt. Dragon kings and defilers, halfings you did not want to set a dinner date with. Dumbfunding players with "what do you mean there's no metal?". For its time it really set the bar high for original new settings.
I don't mess with the Magic Spells themselves in AD&D (Especially anything older than 3.X) but I love creating my own Magic Items and giving them a history and a name that came from my own homebrew world. -- Incorporating the item into the world.
Oh yes, creating magic items is one of my favorite things
Another absolute banger by Bandit’s Keith
Thanks
To add a more fifth edition perspective of working the magic. Spell slots I've flavored as the exhaustion of casting a spell. I rarely give a level of exhaustion but its emphasized. I also have list of spells that can't be learned naturally via leveling up due to rarity and power. Then I make getting those spells quests. I've also asked how their wizard researches the new spell they learned at level up, which has created fun roleplay situations that don't escalate into rolls but it's made my casters think about how they come across their spells and tell me so without me asking. Cantrips are indeed just a part of the game, and I agree that you can't call the setting low magic with cantrips. But I couldn't see my self hard limiting my spell casters. I see useless casting as a problem, not to much casting. Pointing out that the situations you show your wizard will also decided portions of their spell list and thats what I try to do. Develop encounters that should be answered with weirder spells. Lastly, I just spend a longer time at lower levels When they only have 3-6 slots total you get much more careful casting. Specifically I slow down right at level 3 because level 5 is huge deal in terms of power.
Awesome, I like how you add flavor without extra rolls.
@@BanditsKeep thanks!
Its all about the chance of failure, or active conflict. If neither of those two things are involved i’d rather just role-play it out, or give it to the player out right.
A DC low or high could just guarantee that the encounter, plot or object you wanted to add to the game doesn’t happen because they rolled low that day.
Tunnels & Trolls cast from fatigue in the early editions. They added a magic attribute and effectively mana points later.
GURPS uses magic as fatigue in their magic system. Mages and psionics can drop down from spells.
Call of Cthulhu characters drop unconcious at 0 magic points. Most humans do not grasp that they have expanded and mp, for example if something drained them or they did not know they were part of a ritual. People experience a small, inconsequential spell of fatigue or dizzyness.
Really enjoyed this one, especially since I have to keep updating and thinking through the implications for my own TTRPG because of choices I made with the magic system. One thing I'd like to bring up is that I think the "Low vs High Magic" debate is actually flattening the discourse quite a bit, and something that Keith Barker really got me thinking hard on when he writes on/discusses how he approached it for Eberron. Specifically, the addition of the Wide vs Narrow Magic (magic is common vs magic is rare) to the debate, and actually making a it a discussion about where in the quadrants you land, and how that has implications for a setting. This breaks apart the issue where Low Magic is often synonymous for Narrow/Rare Magic, which would conflict with a setting where everyone has access to a cantrip and ritual casting was common, but actual spellcasters were rare yet extraordinarily powerful.
As a concrete example, I'd say that OD&D is a Narrow High Magic setting. It is a fundamentally magical world, with VERY power magics and characters who can access them, but those able to reach such heights are rare and generally inaccessible. Compare this to Eberron where Keith takes a Step Pyramid approach, with low level magic being quite common, but each "tier" up you get a large reduction in the amount of entities with access to such magic - Eberron is a Wide Low Magic setting, but on the Low/High scale, its more towards the middle range. And then you've got something like Forgotten Realms which is Moderate High Magic setting, where if you're in a town you probably have access to someone who CAN cast magic, and low level priests who do, but the chance you are on a first name basis with them is rare. The overall amount of people who have access to magic, and how powerful that is, forms more of a classic pyramid with a smooth slope up. There are a lot of mid to high level NPCs out there, a couple explicitly mage ruled societies, so on and so forth.
This helpefully allows you to then discuss settings in terms such as a Step-Pyramid or Regular Pyramid, as discussed above, or a Tower (Narrow High), and whatever other shapes make sense to get across the intended presence of magic. This in turn is a really helpful tool for thinking through the effect for your own setting, but also for trying to get across the setting to others. My setting is a Very Wide Step Pyramid - everyone has access to one domain of magic at least on a low level, fewer are actually good at it, and significantly fewer have access to two domains, and exceptionally few have access to all domains. Anyways, food for thought, thanks for the videos!
Interesting ideas for sure, I like this approach to thinking about magic
I’ve been tossing around this idea for a game that uses the Mage class (and possibly Acolyte) as shown in the Carcass Crawler zine instead of the typical magic user. This magic system instead of having memorized spells so to speak would be based around scrolls or written spells so that once cast, a spell is used unless the Mage scribes or copies a spell book or scroll to a usable scroll, which is expensive and time consuming. This would also eliminate the idea of what spell levels can be cast but would make spells rare and valuable but a 1st level Mage can cast a high level spell if they find it. Since they have an inherent “read magic” skill, a failure would then roll on a table like in DCC or Low Fantasy Gaming, where strange and terrible things can happen.
EZD6 has a Hedge Mage Class thatt must cast from Scrolls
I’m not a huge fan of roll to cast AND cost / limit combined, but it sounds interesting.
That's a system that will guarantee not to have Magic users in your campaign.
I'm thinking up some magic where you have to cast a training spell to train their minds to take the magic. Magic spells for a regular person will hopefully only put you in a coma vs blowing your head off. You have to have magic written down. The paper burns away when cast. You can make new spells "in the lore". And if you want a constant magic effect, you have to have an item to do that, you can't just cast a spell that lasts for so and so turns.
I'm working on it.
Sounds interesting
@@BanditsKeep You're one of my go to dnd channels:)
I'll get my system working one day.
One of my favorite OSR-style games is Hero's Journey 2nd Edition (the book itself lacks some procedures and tables for emergent play, but of course I use tools from B/X and other games to make it shine). Magic there is more spontaneous, and even more flexible, since each spell has 3 different effect, essentially meaning you have 3 spells possible when you learn a new one. However, magic is really rare because to be a Wizard you have to roll 15 or higher in "Insight" attribute. And attribute rolling is a fundamental part of the game, which is the way the lineages (races) are balanced. Really cool
Interesting
The magic system of a setting really does have a massive effect on your game. Each setting can either benefit, or be hindered by how magic is implemented. This is also true regardless of the tech level of your setting.
~ Adam
For sure
Awesome video! In my DCC campaign, magic is rare. But I use your suggestion. Players have to either find new spells or learn them from another wizard. Really set the tone for the role that magic plays in the game.
Awesome
Fantastic work Daniel. :)
I play 5e, and I replaced spell slots with MtG color mana for all my spellcasting. red spells need red mana to cast, etc. when you run out of that color mana you can't cast those spells anymore.
casters pick what spells they know and pick how much of each color they have in their mana pool.
they are gambling with their mana what spells they'll need today. They can focus on one color only or diversify with many colors but also divide their mana pool.
Mana is also a battery for rituals, magic items, tricks and traps, so casters are living batteries as well as throwing magic around.
That sounds really fun! I still need to try MtG, I picked up a couple of starter decks but never jumped in
I'm running a 5th edition group, but that's "5th edition" with about twenty airquotes. One of the many hacks I have made for it is that the Warlock player (who, if you are unfamiliar with 5th edition classes, gains his magic via a pact with a powerful being of some kind, such as a devil, archfey, or eldritch horror) is typically offered, overtly from his patron, quests to retrieve or sacrifice or overcome or learn something, in place that is particularly dangerous. In return, he will be granted an extra spell slot, new spell known, or invocation. This has made the player *very* willing to engage with the world, and risk life & limb to gain an extra bit of magic, which was my game-mechanic solution to encouraging the player to interact with the fictional world, in the way that only the Wizard / Magic User had the built-in reason to interact with the world by collecting scrolls and books.
Great idea, do you ever have the quests conflict with what the party is doing to create a dilemma?
@@BanditsKeep absolutely, but with restraint so as not to overtly encourage players to kill each other
Magic was the first thing I home brewed. MUs have the lowest hit dice, most limited weapons and armor, and have severely limited magic ability. (Gary did not like MUs). They really end up being a major party liability. I developed a spell point system that allows them to cast the same spell multiple times as long as they have the points. Exhaustion occurs when the points run out and they must rest to regain those points. It has worked well over the years.
I don’t see it that way, MUs are powerful when played with skill
Ha! Thanks so much for doing this! I’m just in the beginning of listening to it. In Howard’s Conan, all the magic is bound up in ancient artifacts from who-knows-where (e.g. Set) and the sorcerers are the ones who know how to use them (e.g. Toth-Amon and the ring in Phoenix on the Sword). I always thought that was so cool. I really need to read Vance. I know it’s the basis for D&D magic but I just learned that in the last year or so.
Ah yes, artifacts!
@@BanditsKeep I remember hearing that one of the older D&D rule sets restricted the use of magic items (except weapons and armor) to magic-users, but I could be confusing it with something else. Seems like it could be a cool way to make magic both more rare and more powerful. You could have a world in which magic items abound from ancient, forgotten civilizations but only the magic-user class knows how to use them. Lots of adventure hooks right off the bat to tie the PCs in; the magic-user PC will always want to go find them. Man I’m glad I found this channel.
@@williamobraidislee3433 That sounds awesome, I know some items in OD&D are restricted to magic users
I think using the d8 for magic users HD as well. If HD is more of an abstract resilience of the character, it can work perfectly as combat endurance for the fighter, and it can work as magic points for a caster.... It also represents the magical protection a caster may have despite her low physical propensity
Makes sense - I’ve been running more OD&D lately and everyone has d6 - that being said, the MU has less HD as they level.
@@BanditsKeep I think the change to 1d4 in B/X was a mistake. It was a double nerf relatively as Fighters and monsters went up to 1d8. There was no need to weaken magic users and thieves as well.
One thing Ive thought of is a set of spells that are rituals that can be cast by anyone, but under very specific circumstances. So lets say a Gate spell, but it has to be cast on a certain time and with very specific things that need gathered. I would probably also include a miscast table with it.
Cool.
Great Video, going OSR myself its a fresh breath of air to go ahead and make my own magic systems and think about the effects such magic would have on societies and the setting . Really makes for a far more interesting world and setting to run a game in. I find the high fantasy super hero settings of 5ed where magic is so easy and free to use and common really lack any depth and groundedness to campaigns. Cannot run a Sword and Sorcery or any form of low magic setting in 5ed really its quite a limited edition in that regard.
Love the over all ideas you put out here, my own system and campaign setting magic is going to be accessible to all however your going to have to search for the more powerful and effective magic . Most magic will relate to two attributes giving varied results. I also agree 100% putting time in rituals of conducting magic really makes players go OSR and have to think ahead and not just rely on their powers to save them when they need them. Using equipment slots is exactly what I plan on doing for most of the magic being tied to items. However their will be a few gods and deals one can make to gain a magical power or ability, these however would be unwise to abuse too much and to openly use them in a settled area is risky depending on the inhabitants and their views.
Great stuff man this is a much needed topic magic really has a huge effect on such settings and it needs to be considered far more, Its apart of the goofyness of forgotten realms which for me is silly and I cannot take such settings and campaigns taking place in them too seriously. Which kinda drags down the experience for someone like me and I know i am not alone in this regard.
That sounds very cool
@@BanditsKeep thank you sorry it was a long post!
I think Gary’s justification for Vancian magic in the Strategic Review was good enough. The purpose of Vancian magic was to provide limitations on magic-users. It’s an abstract system like early D&D’s 1-minute melee round and Armor Class Matrices.
Also for your CHAINMAIL-inspired game, see if you can find a copy of Spellcraft and Swordplay. It was a game that asked “what if CHAINMAIL’s combat systems had remained the default in later editions rather than the alternate combat system taking over?” If I remember correctly it also preserved the magic systems.
I believe I have this somewhere!
The DCC system appeals to me in the form of the unknowable outcome of dealing with extra-human abilities in the form of magic. I like what is done in The Black Sword Hack, wherein the magic is more akin to Conan in being somewhat more indirect and ties more into manipulating reality than hurling energies at one another. I use the descriptions provided in DCC for the spell appearance sometimes in my other games, to have them be more of a warping of reality, or alteration of the immediate area, like for the sleep spell, wherein poppy dust appears and floats down over the target or target area, causing drowsiness that some of them succumb to.
I like that
> the "rare" magic problem
This is great. I have tried (and flubbed) making magic rare before: I like your solution!
That said, the second bit - "wanting to learn magic" - that was actually going to be my next attempt - lol - in Weapons, Wits, & Wizardry (my own 0e-compatible clone-esque game), the current beta document has an XP cost to learn it; and specifies you need a mentor - the intent being, *no one* starts as an MU - it's something you earn through adventure.
Glad I clicked this one!
That’s interesting- does that mean anyone who spends the XP can use magic? (With training) - that opens up a host of possibilities for sure.
Yup - that's the intent.
Friends of mine talk about playing out your backstory - why not play out your wizardly apprenticeship?
😉
I'm big on Conanified magic: rare, frightening, and something you have to seek out - with the occasional peddler trying to tell you that the pendant she wants you to buy will protect you from evil.
My world is very magical, it is draped with the stuff that powers magic - actually two, incompatible things. But to cast spells you need to weave them from the invisible magic stuff. This takes time, sometimes days, and carefully choreography as the spellcaster moves through the flows to create an incantation. Powerful spells might need many spellscasters, moving in unison, to create complex weaves. Spell are not useful in combat as a result.
I use Fantasy Hero for this and require all spells have the appropriate limitations - with no saving for the extra time.
We've always stuck to, "if there's magic, there's no gunpowder"
Lately we've been playing "old school Forgotten Realms, didnt know 5e stole that name", so wild magic is certainly available, albeit very unpredictable haha
Casting the proper spell is supposed to be challenging, especially at low levels, thats why I like high dex magic users with darts
What name? I’ve not sure I follow
@@BanditsKeep I thought you said 5e Forgotten Realms in the video, I've never played anything passed advanced 2e of course
@@sgtbigballs666 How was the "Stolen"? Forgotten realms has been a setting in D&D since the early 90s it has existed as far as I know in all the editions since - it was not "Stolen" it's part if D&D
@@BanditsKeep call it what you want, not a fan of anything reprinted by wotc
@@sgtbigballs666 Like/don’t like doesn’t change something from being purchased to being stolen 🤦🏻♂️
I runned a dnd 3.5 with no magic users allowed. Only magic was rare equipment and consumable options. We has a blast campaign was 2 twice a month for 2.5 years. Your right about balance, it usely a all or nothing approach for my games.
Awesome
In my youth we played without magic users in a heavily combat orientated party. As I got older we tried to be a bit more 'inclusive' instead of the mantra of 'magic user, self abuser' but at low levels they were still hard to keep alive. When 2E came along and the new bard class came along it was easier to have them be the party magic user while being more 'useful' in other ways. I guess it depends on how you work things. I should say, I never played basic, I started on what is now 1E AD&D. Of course there was the odd Elf fighter/mage or thief/mage but it didn't really catch on in our group for some reason. As I'm looking to start again with one of the old players and form a world and group I'm curious to see how we go with magic so thanks for giving me a lot to ruminate.
Cool, I would imagine the amount of combat your intend to encounter would factor into the life span of a low level magic user
@@BanditsKeep Aye, now we're a bit more mature we'll see how we go but discussing it with my mate he still seems to hold a dim view of 'self abusers', ideally we'll rustle up a few more players so the dynamic might change. Clerics on the other hand... much loved.
I can only speak to 5e personally. In Vance's universe, the magic informs the worldbuilding which informs the magic. The consequence of quality writing from a singular source. In 5e, the magic is an eclectic design built over decades of iteration, and there is fun gameplay from that, but the connection to the worldbuilding is strained. So now there are wizards that can afford to leave their manse, but few of the consequences of such a change.
Good point.
You bringing up the effect that 5e cantrips have on balance is interesting. Almost all magic-users in 5th edition have the ability to use light crossbows, with the exception of druids. Until cantrips increase their damage die at 5th level, most magic users will actually get *more* damage per round by just plinking away at things with a light crossbow(assuming they have a decent dexterity, which most also want because they rarely have access to heavy armor). If you take away cantrips, most spellcasters are relatively unchanged in terms of relative effectiveness until level 5, at which point they all have a decent amount of spell slots, and while spells tend to be a bit less powerful in 5e because of balancing, a fireball can still obliterate an encounter and effects like comprehend languages or invisibility are still able to solve problems that might be impenetrable otherwise.
There’s more to cantrips than combat - just not my thing.
@@BanditsKeep That's true but the first thing people tend to jump to when you bring up removing them is how that would impact a caster's damage output... when that's typically not even supposed to be their role.
I'm tinkering currentky with a lower-fantasy rebalance and might end up reworking the more utility-oriented ones as 1st level spells and just doing away with the rest
@@baatmilkI tend to follow the Lamentations ideas. MUs and other adventurers can use all tools a level 0 man-at-arms can. So they can pick up a rifle, but without the fighter attack bonus. And in Esoteric Enterprises and Lamentations they can use armour as long as they're not encumbered. So an Esoteric wizard can wear a kevlar vest.
In one of my groups we came up with Magic and Gear Mitigation to get through traps. Can also be used if a players fails a save as a last ditch attempt to stave off death. So basicaly the DM has the players make Wis Checks. Those that make it can figure out what combination of spells or gear to get through an area of the dungeon or save a victim from dying. Magic Items and Scrolls can be used but it takes x charges to equal the same as the spell cast. As example Save vs Stone Curses (D8)
1 Holy Water or Mirror
2 Torch, Ration & reroll
3 Holy Water & HERB
4 Any Weapon or Armor
5 Holy Water (D4) & Any Cross
6 Holy Water, Oil (D4) & HERB (D4)
7 Holy Water (D4) & Silver Cross
8 SUNDRY (D4) & reroll ...Note: Typically the gear loss is for the one potentially stricken; however, many spells are area in effect. Fail mitigate or save kills lowest level of party or established volunteer. There is also Dispel Magic for a mage of high enough ability.
Cool, I’ve taken to doing something like this - broken / lost gear - for things like pit traps vs damage.
@@BanditsKeep It sure makes Gold valuable to players. you need to buy stuff every town visit as a player.
Always insightful. Thanks
Thank You!
Another excellent video, Daniel. Thank you! Shared.
Thanks Brett!
@@BanditsKeep: My pleasure - and bonus points for using Blackwolf in the thumbnail.
Thanks for the video, it gives me things to think about for any of my campaigns.
Awesome
Great stuff
Thank You!
I'm using the vancian system, but to make it interesting, magic is everywhere, literally. The gods of magic set up rune words, and if you understand what the rune word means, you get understanding of that spell. The rune words are in the clouds, the trees, the path an insect might walk, the information is available everywhere and to everyone. But you need training to even know the rune words are there. Thus the arcane and divine spell users.
With spell slots, that's how I track the spell components the magic users have. So without your components, you're out of luck unless you have a spell without a material component.
Also, when the players use up their spell slots, they can use spells still, but at the cost of 1D6 damage per level of spell slot. Is that Cloudkill that important to cast right now? When you exhaust your supplies, magic has a cost.
Cool
In my world magic is "easy" to cast but "hard" to learn you need to go to "wizard" school to test you apatude for magic then apprentice under a Wizard takes years so a level 1 wizard is not just some dude that showed up they have had far more traning than any outher level one class
I think low magic is cool 13 wizards atop a cliff speding there life force to lunch a fire ball at a castle , or wizard casting a spell and loseing arm as a cost is relly cool to me
but i love wizards and i love the idea of spells being thorn about making sparks for you fingers to make a crying girl look in wonder maigc warping the world and make it wired
My first time playing D&D was 2e I played a wizard at the time because i thougt it would be cool my uncle said an illusionist would be cool ( his faveroit class) I did not have a huge amont of fun as wizard the game was fun but running out of magic and just being a guy with a sling and a dager was well lacking "magicness" to me
i guess it felt like mising the whloe point of the class like if you chose to play a figher and then most encousters where solved with words and talking so you never got to fight anything you'd probley be wishing you'd put something better in your Cha
so my world will always have magic
Part of being a wizard IMO is know when to use the limited magic you have - if sounds like your 2e character wanted to be a fighter with spells. How many spells did Gandalf cast?
Will be keen to see what you think of Lavender Hack.
Dangerous Journeys really goes into detail in this
Splits full casters and partial casters, based on a Very high Stat requirement AND and roll to then qualify, with full casters being rare and partial casters being common. So the world is magical but true casters are very rare.
It has something like 18 types or schools of magic and tables on where those magics are found in the world to even give an idea of the types of magic are expressions of different cultures which again really paints the picture of magic in the world of Ærth
I bought it but at 180 pages it will be a while before I read it front to back 😂
Hi, found your channel recently and it is quite good, congrats!
I've been thinking about an adventure or maybe even a campaign around the influence of magic in the society since I read DCC for the first time, it is good to know that there are other people thinking about this stuff as well hahaha
Awesome, let me know more about your adventure as you create it, very interested
Great ideas
Thank You!
Arcanum was the first game to say - Let's go all in on Magic. Then later we got Ars Magica and Mage. There is nothing wrong with High Magic and Open Spell Crafting as long as the Game Referee remembers to have penalties for breaking reality. Reality has to be able to bite back.
Personally I use two systems for D&Dish type games. 1. The Holmes Rule you have to go all he way home to recharge your power. There is no way to bring books with you. A single Cantrip is an Encyclopedia Set. 2. I use a Magic Point System but each point is 1hp of damage.
Cool
Fun conversation. I’ve had the same feelings on the Vancian system. It bothered me not having the freedom to cast spontaneously until I realized Vancian meant casters were slightly new characters with every adventure. I do think the identify or magic missile choice is a problem because I want battles to test characters’ limits. If I were rewriting DnD I think I’d make 1st level spells all non-combat, 2nd tactical, 3rd offensive, something like that. So it’s more like bring a sword or a bow, and bring rope or spikes, not bring a sword or a rope.
Check out Lavender Hack
@@MrRourk Thanks, I looked it up. How exactly does it relate?
@@strawpiglet You will have to read the writers ideas on magic
I like that!
@@BanditsKeep Cool! :)
I'm currently using Open d6 and modified with my own magic system. Being a caster is tough because they have to pay starting dice to even have the option to be able to cast spells. Each spell is a separate skill. Casting minor spells are pretty safe unless the caster is fatigued. Once fatigued though it can be a lot easier for a spell to fail in which case you end up getting backlash which can be pretty serious especially for those using black magic. Dark magicians end up accumulating corrupting traits, which at a certain point the character probably wouldn't be playable any longer.
Interesting I’ve not tried that system
@@BanditsKeep Open d6 is the same system used in West End games version of Star Wars. Really simple yet deep system. Super flexible for hacking. Its worth a go if you never looked at it before. Its free at this point and you can also find for free Simple Six which is a simplified version of the regular rules. Still very hackable.
I think the best way to write magic is that its spritual technology, think of the ways technology helps you in life then replace that with technology, things like flashlights, food, sleeping ware, and bug spray could all be replaced with magic.
Indeed
I feel magic should be fairly not sterile and scientific if you will, that is an issue with 5ed magic will do exactly what you want it to do and their will be no consequences for defying the laws of reality. Really far more interesting to have magic a more unknown field and less reliable. Also helps make martial characters not feel like garbage and inadequate.
@@underfire987 that's alright in a low fantasty setting but in high or mid magic settings magic needs to be easy to use for common use, you can't have high magic settings where magic only sometimes works.
@@starwars90001 Thats fair but I think a large portion of the gamer base is really tired of High fantasy so guess well see the continued trend of games drop 5ed and wotc switching over to the OSR.
Excellent video Daniel. We’d love to have you as a guest on Classless Characters.
thanks
Some mage's may have a "Traveling Spell Book". It would be smaller than the mage's main spell book that is left at home and would contain appropriate spells for being out in the field.
Of course there would be a cost for this but at least if it gets lost or destroyed the mage would still have their main spell book at home.
This is a thing in AD&D for sure - another one of the ways to get the PCs to spend all that gold
Great video. I prefer to keep magic rare, strange, and dangerous!
High/common magic settings can be great and a lot of fun, too, but I find they rarely delve into how that magic affects everyday life. It often ends up feeling like a mess of a setting.
I tend to agree, I’d love to see a high magic setting that fully incorporates the magic in every day life
Speaking of Dwarven magic, I'm having it so Dwarves can forge magic weapons and armor by inscribing them with runes. That's more worldbuilding NPC stuff, I haven't modified the Dwarf class
May not be the best video to post this but, could you do a mystery adventure design sometime? Love your channel, find it very inspiring.
Mysteries can be tough, but I shall see if I can whip something up. - thanks for the kind words.
I have been toying with a magic system based on Chainmail where counterspells are a thing, and spell complexity and the wizard’s level also factor in. I also like the potential for a spell to go off later than desired. I bought a copy of TSR’s War of Wizards off eBay and it has some interesting ideas too. D&D would have been very different if Vancian magic wasn’t introduced.
For sure
The topic of how to edit magic and why magic works in the way it does in D&D has been a huge debate in my old groups. We were constantly blabbering about low magic and how to remove stuff from the game, but at the same time how magic was intrinsicly limited by the forms adopted from the game. We didn't read Vance at the time, but I've being reading the first 4 novellas from The Dying Earth recently and I sure don't understand why it should be considered "low magic" at all. Middle Earth is a waaay more "low magic" world to me, especially if we're speaking about direct spellcasting (only demi-gods and elves can cast spells).
Anyway thanks for reminding me of old discussions and I'm 100% endorsing magic-based world building in my new campaign.
I think many people connect things like elves and dwarves roaming the lands with high magic
@@BanditsKeep That's a way to see it. I always thought that low or high magic was a matter of how common magic is in the world, because that makes or breaks the mystery of it.
In Dying Earth we have Perennial intrigues between powerful wizards creating artificial humans from big vials, mini-flying men, travelling between dimensions with instant spells to name a few. Doesn't look very low magic to me. Instead magic in Middle Earth is very rare. Plus dwarves and elves don't really roam the lands all the time, they are both described as declining groups and small in numbers.
@@BanditsKeepIn One Ring from Free League you can play dwarves and ancient elves and rangers and bree-men. But none of you can play a wizard. You will not meet wizards on the road. There is a handful of them in the world. You have small things like elf-sight and the endurance of dwarves to march in heavy armour.
@@arkanoid77You meet dwarves on the road fairly often in One Ring. Rangers and elves are rare. None of you can play a wizard. There is no magic system I am aware of.
Thanks Daniel , and timely. I am wrestling with a simplified TTRPG system ( an early D&D modification of my own) which is very "contained" , in order to combat power creep , both in terms of combat and in terms of magic. I am limiting all Character progression to 6 Levels , and am severely crimping down on Hit Point elevation at each level. In order to mathematically place Dice Roll resolutions on a Bell curve , all combat rolls will be on 3d6.
Magic is causing me some conundrums , however. I am seeking a low magic environment , but I want the MU players to feel they have some choice in how to develop their Characters,
and to have variety in their casting. I also must consider that options need to be a bit broader than early D&D or OSR D&D , because the ultimate scope of development ( 6 Levels only ) is seriously more restricted than D&D. That being said , the more options a low level MU has , the greater the risk/challenge must be to cast each spell , so they don't become medieval thermonuclear weapons.
I also feel that casting magic must have an energy cost somehow. I'd rather not add an additional mechanic , like spell points , but I haven't settled on a satisfactory solution , yet.
I am "containing" the power of magic in a similar way to applying the bell curve to combat by having the MU level affect the "power" of the magic. For instance if the spell should affect x number of victims , the number it affects increases as the MU increases by level , OR if the duration of the base spell is Y , then a higher level Mage is able to make it last longer.
If it is an offensive spell , a First Level MU can attack with 1 Hit Die , but a Third Level MU would attack with 3 HD , or attack 3 targets with 1 HD , and so on.
Any thoughts or ideas based on my ramblings ?
You may want to to check out “wonders and wickedness” it’s a level less spell system that does at least some of what you are looking to do
Excellent stuff. I've always wrestled with the whole "memorized spell vanishes once you cast it" mechanic (I was an actor, and I didn't have to rememorize my lines every day), but then how else to achieve that "you have what you packed" idea? Spell slots come close, but it's like a magical Swiss army knife - all your tools with you all the time. So far I just use the BECMI mechanic and hand wave the logic behind it!
The fiction that Gygax cribbed from (and which his peers were all familiar with) was one in which spells are like living things, scratching and clawing to get out of the caster's head.
I didn’t really “get it” until I read Vance. I think all editions of D&D have done a bad job describing it 😂
@@jarrettperdue3328 I love that!
@@BanditsKeep Yes, the first writers assumed a familiarity with the source material, then later writers remained locked in the language of their predecessors long after Vance wasn't broadly read.
I’ve really been meaning to try running Whitehack, but I’m not a fan of Core Mechanics vs OD&D’s more modular take. Whitehacks magic system is really intriguing though
I’ve heard that as well
I think Ars Magica is limited by the magic side-effects which make the casters not casting whenever they want. Warhammer does the same, only because you can cast all the time doesn'T mean it is a good idea to do so.
For my own setting Veitstant I basically have two forms of magic. On is the song magic, everybody can theoretical learn the magic melodies that influence the daimons who are basically upholding the laws of nature. Many people do so without even knowing that they use magic, like a blacksmith is singing while working and thus the creation of steel for example is not chemical process but happens because song, which is of course a trade secret and thus not shared outside the artisan guild. And aside from the secrecy of these songs they require mental capacity, and each such song is equal to a full field of knowledge. Thus how much memory a character has available is tracked and or relevance. The second method is a little more brute force, it is outright binding a daimon into one's brain, that can create much more flashy effects and been cast in an instand. But that method can have all kinds of side-effects and the daimon is gone after use like in vancian magic you have to know what kind of magic you want to prepare. The daimon also occupies the same space as a song or other knowledge / memories would, thus you cannot bind endless daimons either, since at one point one would have to sacrifice knowledge or memories to hold more at the ready.
Indeed- but you know people will
This was super inspiring. From a mechanic perspective, if you wanted to do it how you were talking where magic was rare and still vancian, how would you allow PCs who level up get the new “free” spell for that level?
Simply put, I wouldn’t. They would have to quest for them. Which is how I’m doing it in my OD&D game. That being said they each started with a book of about 10 spells of various levels, it hasn’t really been an issue and the players have fully embraced getting “random” spells from scrolls etc
@@BanditsKeep that’s super awesome. Do you use the AD&D mechanic where you have a minimum and maximum number of spells able to be learned for any given level? The way I understand it then there would be some scrolls that just are forever unusable.
Some OSR games allow ritual magic. A turn lets you toss any spell. I might rule that it's a turn per level. So if you want to Dispel something or Cure Poison you are standing around a dungeon for 2-4 turns. Which has its other problems.
Using magic on the surface in Esoteric Enterprises has other risks. The police suppresses magic hard, and you are not equipped to face down the attention of a nation-state.
That’s interesting, I would think though that outside a dungeon healing and even raising the dead would be super common if it can be done as a ritual.
@@BanditsKeep If they are back in town and not out on the road they can use spells in their downtime. In some versions you had to cast Identify for day after day on an item, so then you have a downtime thing to do. But in town you can blow all your spells in a day without the need to concentrate on wilderness risks and probably recover them easier without the need to set camp out in nowhere. A lot of the constraints of spell slots disappear when you are sitting safe and sound in town. Unless it's a city of crime and adventure where you roll random encounters with street gangs daily, and in practice you run a city crawl.
I like the balance between the city above and the megadungeon below in Esoteric. The dungeon is a mix of wilderness and dungeon where all things go. The surface is the world we know where the police will suppress the heck out of criminals like you and the nonsense you bring up. A lot of street gangs and cults take to the underworld because they prefer weekly firefights with golems and werewolves to dodging the police. The police does not patrol th megadungeon, they only contain what comes out. There is no wilderness in between, PCs can walk an hour down the subway and find their way to a magical fairy market or a cult stronghold of Ithaqua.
You can use magic in the city above, but the police react similar to you as people selling crack behind the KFC. The more crime you do, the more attention the police give you. It's a slow and steady progress that does not rescind. This can rise to a point where the SWAT team cracks your door and throws tear gas into your flat. It is very hard to escalate against a state. You are encouraged to think like career criminals who must hide what you are doing and why you are delving into the lawless underworld.
@@BanditsKeep But in practice, the rule for letting characters cast spells above their level through ritual lets them get away with more. The crew got level 5 Animate Dead at the start of the game from a book and could find a corner in a dungeon to use it. If the police did not send the SWAT team on would-be wizards, people would probably use magic all over the place. Even if I said they need five turns to toss the spell, that is perfectly doable. They had a zombie goon right there. I noticed that the spell effects are tweaked to be limited by level, so all they could do was a 2HD zombie. The poor chump got ripped to pieces in the next room, taking an ambush instead of the players.
I always thought that the truckload of magic options for characters in D&D is somehow inflationary to the concept of magic as a whole. Basically about 90% of the playable archetypes tap into some kind of supernatural force. This abundance of magic users, talismans, and - as you pointed out aptly - effortless cantrips, paints a world of wonders that lost all appreciation for miracles. Mundane tasks may very well be frowned upon, since what's the use of a cobbler, when a mere mending cantrip can repair your shoes much swifter and more efficiently? Maybe with the exception of the Dark Sun setting, all of the high magic worlds in D&D suffer this problem of magic utilitarianism, that renders a lot of historical tropes (such as cavalry warfare) rather obsolete. In addition to the questions of 'how many mages?' and 'what's the cost of magic?' I think it's important to draw a line and ask 'what are the things that magic isn't able to do?' in order to come up with some credible world building. Assigning different fields of expertise to certain ethnic groups and working with an evolution of magic capabilities (like with technology) are good tools for that, as can be seen in the Talislanta game setting. In addition to omnipotent wizards, I do not really like the resource management imposed by many magic systems via spell slots and mana points, since it takes the player further away from the narrative of spellcasting - which IMO is the only thing that can make a thaumaturgic incantation feel really magical at the table.
How would you handle limits on spells of not slots/mana?
@@BanditsKeep The DCC route is a viable option IMO. Making spell-casting a risky endeavor brings a lot of flavor to the story as well.
It's always preferable to add some kind of condition (like exhaustion) to your character, than micro-managing a plethora of point-pools. Ranges of success can give you fuel to narrate more oomph into your desired spell (or even mundane endeavors). At least that's what I try to do in my coin- and card-driven storytelling RPG 'Manto' (still in playtest).
A specialized magic field can also add to creativity when it comes to depicting magic in a RPG. A fire mage should absolutely have the liberty to heal somebody, by trying to cauterize a deep cut IMO, to come up with just a simple example. Your magic potential is always there, to limit the power of your spells (such as the proficiency level of certain forms in the Ars Magica system). Magic that ALWAYS works (in the same pre-defined way), as in D&D, feels a little too technical, for something miraculous.
Hey Daniel I sent you an email a few days ago about the magic system and Gary's in put wondering if you got it? Thanks
I did, thanks!
@@BanditsKeep great when you get a chance to get back to me id like to know your thoughts on the spell point system and wondered if it would be something you would use/recomend? Thanks
When a wizard cut a guy off of the supply of being charmed there is a good chance that that guy will try to mug and chain that wizard up in their basement. Charm person is a heck of a spell. Best way to play it. Have players play withdraw simptoms from charm person. Make an addiction plot hook. Everyone seems unfriendly. Every immortal lawful evil is jaded by charm person and knows what is going on. They are tempted but are immune. They would feel euphoric for 1 round followed by demonic rage. "My friend, my friend, you betray me... and you condemn yourself. How dare you make me sorry?"
Interesting- not at all as the spell is written, but a cool option (maybe) I’m not sure I like having people know they were charmed.
Something that's been on my mind for a while is clerics memorizing spells. Thematically, they're praying and channeling divine power, so why are they memorizing instead spontaneously?
Clerics don’t pray for spells in my world so that is not an issue, but you can still do the meditation to imbue them at the beginning of the quest, same as magic-users … you get what you pray for.
Intellectual casters, have a book(s) and carry material components, or a spell focus (I use different focii, to represent different things. Personally grouped sets of spells , different schools, energy types etc.)
Magic is available, though poorly distributed, barely understood, tightly controlled and prohibitively expensive to teach and learn. To be taught magic; people need to be tied to organisations like governments or bound to (and controlled/handled by) some kind of hierarchical structure. Additional spells can be found, or taught, from creatures, scriptures and scrolls.
It gets messy when you get to spontaneous casters. These creatures are feared and distrusted; as using magic commonly is a tool of the monstrous. Sorcerors only know certain spells, wizards can accumulate more, Warlocks are bound to serve their patrons. Uncommon to rare, is the feeling I was going for. Even moderate evocation, turns a man into a wandering howitzer. You want to know where these guys are at least. If not knowing they can be motivated, or controlled to work for you.
Interesting
Just had a TPK in Basic Fantasy from some bombardier beetles, if only the Magic User had their sleep spell ready.
Sleeping beetles are safe beetles
The main thing, that makes magic rare in a medieval setting, is the necessity to study to use it. Imaging, that you can cast spells only if you have a degree. Can anyone get a degree? Yes. But you need a lot of money and time (in which you can't work for living). So for most people magic is inaccessible, just because in a medieval setting something like 95% of people have to work constantly only not to starve.
You can study to become a magic user, but you need your family to provide for your during this time, or you n need to find a patron, that could sponsor your studies.
And all that can be in your level 1 character’a past.
Magic in my game is something a scholar may stumble upon figuring out what some old tome in an unknown language means. Or a secret coven or a witch or hermit deep in the woods. It’s not something that governments and society has much access to. That’s just my way of doing it.
I like that
was the dying earth written by jack vance?
Yes it was. That's why OD&D's magic system is called Vancian magic.
@@gwythyr1281 very cool, thank you for that info.
Yes! @Gwythyr got to it first!
@@BanditsKeep sounds like a good read, thank you.
What does Osr stand for sorry I am a noob
Old School renaissance is the most common use. Basically using older rules and play styles.
@@BanditsKeep thanks for such reply you have awesome content 👍🏽
I don't mind traditional D&D magic as long as you include cantrips like they did in 1st/2nd edition. Low level magic users are really nerfed in those early editions.
I disagree - spells are proportionately much more powerful in older editions. They are “glass canons” to be sure but nerfed, nope.
@@BanditsKeep I agree individual spells are more potent, but its sort of lame being a 1st level magic user and all you have left after casting your one spell is a dagger or staff and 2 hit points. The cantrips I'm thinking of are very minor utility ones. I guess what one can do to mitigate this is having several scrolls on hand to cast from.
@@jeffallen559 I just don’t agree, but I guess it comes down to play style, my players love being MUs and having that one epic moment per session where they are the hero - the rest of the time? They use their intelligence and multiple languages to solve problems - also flaming oil is super useful, and henchmen, and war dogs (if you are playing 1e) - yeah, I don’t see it being a problem personally.
Charm person just raises your AC to 20 for the target its casted on
Not following you
DCC spell casters are rare because their magic mutates them into the creatures that PCs slay. Sure you *could* sit in a temple and spam a healing spell, but within a few days you'd be a gibbering, glabrous horror.
Of course clerics don’t get corrupted, there is disapproval but the worst they can get is a mark of their Deity that they have to explain to people - and only people of their faith .. Magic users , yeah they might end up a bit weird but still not uncommon unless you make it so
Easier to case? harder to cast?... Stranger to cast?
I lean towards stranger myself - fluff over crunch for me (mostly)
So in your video are you saying it's OK for us to actually talk about our worlds to you? Because I'm totally willing. But that's probably something best done in a private message. It's pretty interesting or at least I think it is. It's a world full of magical commerce. Where in the territories of man there was a rapid magical progression in society. Which led to an event called the wizard wars. This will be viewed in later history through a much fairer perspective but initially it led to incarceration execution and new ways to regulate wizards making them indentured servants to the state or rogue runaways, hedge magicians living in the wild. Eventually some of these wizards would take over the merchant teleport ships. The ships are one of the primary reasons wizards were not just totally eradicated from the territories of man. A wizard without their book is pretty useless. So another way to regulate wizards is to have mass book burnings. This includes rating peoples private estates ransacking houses, hiring rogues to check for secret passages. And although wizards were the ones who allowed there hunger for knowledge to consume them. It was their private backers and the countries that now turned against them that funded such research and created an environment turning Wizard's into celebrities. Bards doing as they do turned these pirate wizards into romantic figures. There's a lot more.
Cool, I’m happy to have you post here or join the discord to share your world!
@@BanditsKeep what is your discord?