Analysis: Core-A Gaming Reacts to Street Fighter V's 8 Frames of Input Lag
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Street Fighter 5's 8 frames of lag has caused some commotion in the FGC, but how much is 8 frames of lag and how does it affect the game? Also, this isn't actually a reaction video (though there is reacting in it).
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BGM in order:
Street Fighter EX3 - Strange Sunset (Guile's Theme)
Street Fighter Alpha 2 Gold - Birdie Theme
SF Third Strike - Makoto Theme
SFV - Karin Theme
Video is exactly 8 minutes. I see what you did there.,
Core-8 Gaming did it again !
I was going to like your comment but it currently has exactly 80 likes.
I don't know if he just sucks at programming or if it was intentional.
i like my name
What if the video had 8 minutes of lag
So yeah, Capcom producer Koichi Sugiyama has confirmed that this lag was indeed an intentional game design choice :(
Fuuuuuuuuuuck.
So they intentionally forced out defensive players like me?
knowing this, I well find a way to play Defensively.
the way I see it is that if it won't/can't be patched out we just have to accept it as part of the game
The plot thickens. Combofiend says "Actually, it's not a deliberate design choice, I think that the interpretation of what Sugiyama may have said was incorrect."
Core-A Gaming So they're going to fix it? Please tell me they're going to fix it.
For zangief, it matter A LOT, so snake eyez has legitimate reasons to complain.
MoPHL first reply after 3 years huh. With 371 likes
welp
Yey
@@thefatchincat7017 5 years to early
Unfortunately not gonna convince mouth breathers in the FGC to stop throwing shade
Wish I had your "scrubby" reaction times
Yeah.
Honestly, 147 isn't bad at all. Wish I could do that.
Practice, my friend
@@sirreginaldfishingtonxvii6149 147 is insanely , mine are around 190 on a good day
same
@@ultraheaven8968 Its audio man, your 190 is visual.
8 frames is a huge deal. The aspect of punish game as we know it is almost gone completely. Before, you could bait your opponent to throw out a move, and once they do, punish it. Now you have to bait your opponent and make a read that they are going to throw out the move if you want to punish, because if you wait until their move comes out, you won't have enough frames to punish. It becomes just a huge guessing game.
CO SIGN BRO
This. Look at the amount of whiffed normals in 5 and 4. You couldn't do that shit as much in 4 b/c top players could whiff punish you 80% of the time. Now people pre-emptively whiff buttons because they can't react to shit like dash ins. The 8f lag was a stupid choice.
combofriend *did* say its a read based game. sfv is all about READS. this are combofiends words nearly verbatim. so 8frames makes sense in terms of game design. i wouldnt be surprised if its a result of a rushed product as well, however.
I don't think that's true. Moves in SF5 take about on average 2-3 frames longer than their equivalents did in SF4. That 2-3 frames of lag is also the difference between the lag of SF4 and SF5. So whiff punishing isn't more difficult because of the lag.
I'm not saying that whiff punishing isn't more difficult in general though. Almost everything in SF5 has more startup than SF4. Snake Eyes look is one of the first people to complain about the 8 frames. But let's look at his gameplay across both games. Snake Eyes whiff punished a lot in SF4. He's still whiff punishing a lot in SF5. The big difference is what he gets off of a whiff punish. Zangief had five 4F normals to use in footsies and they all led to something else. Zangief's only 4F normal in SF5 is c.lp and it only cancels into itself. Whiff punishing doesn't benefit him and most players. Most characters don't have a good whiff punish button. The fast buttons don't lead to anything and the slow buttons are too slow. I think it's a matter of him not adapting.
Missing an attempted whiff punish is also a lot worse than it is in SF4. In SF4 you had plenty of time to do something else after a whiff punish. But the extra recovery on moves means they have more time to respond. And the extra startup means that it's not turn anymore after whiffing a move.
And the difficulty reacting to dashes less to do with the lag and more with the fact that dashes are faster in SF5. Ryu's dash went from 18F to 16F while Ken's went from 18F to 15F. And if you add the 2-3 frame difference between SF4 and SF5's lag, you get dashes that are about as difficult to react to as 3S dashes.
These are all design decisions.
If they wanted the gameplay to be similar, they would have reduced the startup frames of all moves by the same number of frames of lag introduced, or equivalently given all moves more cooldown frames.
The legends says Guile is still hitting Ryu with the same combo today.
Thanks to damage scaling, it can go on for a few more years.
@@maximumkillmtg still going on
Still going
Still going
Still going
I think that adding input lag to make the game more aggressive is really lazy
Lazy and idiotic how? Isn't game design about making decisions to say your game in the way you want it to be played?
Or is the phrase "more input lag" going to be perceived badly no matter what?
+Fernando Banda
Fighting games have always been games which allowed players a bit of creativity in how they play.
Some people play hyper-aggressive where they're always on the offensive, others like to turtle and wait for their opponents make mistakes that they can punish with no real risk. This is also true of actual fighting (Hell, that's why boxing has a point system.). Why should players that like to play this be punished while the others are rewarded? If someone plays a highly defensive style they're already at a disadvantage because they'll lose to a timeout if they can't find good openings, why make it worse by making it artificially harder for them?
Not to mention, grapplers, like Zangief, have very weak tools when it comes to outright aggression, compared to other characters in the roster. So, for characters like that you need to play a bit more defensively and look for an opening. When you're opening is, literally, guessing if it'll happen that's when you can call a design decision idiotic.
Tejan455 I don't claim to know the ins and outs of Street Fighter, especially V. But game design IS about leading the player to do certain things in a set of rules. For example, I'd like to play a character that runs very fast and can do a sort of hit-and-run tactic because that's my style in other games. But I can't because Street Fighter isn't like that. Same here. Maybe SFV isn't mean to be exactly like those before it. Play styles will always be relative. Having more input lag punishes one kind of behavior, but it can still lead to different playstyles.
And it is very definitely not lazy nor idiotic.
Fernando Banda
Here's the difference, they have the characters that are like that in the game still. That's why Gief and Laura are so low-tier.
That's why the parry system was so beautiful.
The worst thing about is getting hit by moves you know you blocked. I can't tell you how many times I got hit by a random Bison sweep or fast specials in the neutral. I hear the stick as I block but I still get hit. That's game-breaking.
I was watching a replay and i got hit but even in the button display it showsme bloxking. Fuck this game
Just to clarify, the PC version can have close to 4 frames of lag when turning off V-sync (which requires modifying an ini file) or using a G-sync monitor with a G-sync graphics card. The stock settings of the game is closer to 7 frames which is the version most PC players will be playing. Snake Eyes might have been referring to playing with G-sync or V-sync off.
Syncing up both platforms in cross play may have been the intended reason for the lag. When the game first came out on steam, there were a lot of people who recommended turning off v-sync. A lot of the same people who said that have now recommended to leave it on for consistency sake.
I just came for Guile's Street Fighter EX's theme :)
most PC players will turn off v sync.
I don't. I probably should since I have a g sync panel. I don't feel like going back into that INI file though.
yeah screw that. the vast majority of the connections I've had, it was perfectly smooth. I don't accept a match with anything less than 4 bars.
147 ms is a ridiculous reaction time wtf.
NAJIM audiotory reaction, his visual reaction is a lot slower
Ye, that’s like top 1%
he’s asian
I don't like it at all. Games like Guilty Gear and Blazblue manage to be extremely offensive while maintaining responsiveness by building the game around mechanics that keep things in action. In action. If you're theory is correct I really hope they change this.
Yeah, I tried Revelator the other day and was thinking just that. Those are definitely not noob friendly games though :)
Core-A Gaming Definitely true. Though I think both games offer enough Tutorials and ways to learn the game so that anyone who puts some effort in can learn them.
ggx is my fav. and i been loyal to sf from the 1st game. been playing games since the 80's. i definately fewl ggx is a far superior build.
if you are theory
i think it hurts the game a lot
a lot? same people are dominating the scene, just as they did in sf4. If nobody could be consistent in this game, than you could say it hurts the game a lot. But right now, it is just a minimal issue that some people want to whine about. At the end of the day, 99% of players can't differentiate 8f of lag and 4f of lag.
you got that right
i just hate online lag
That's got nothing to do with lag, their decision-making and adaptability is on average a lot better than a casual online scrub. It just takes a tool out of their toolbox and forces the meta of the game towards playing derp mode ken.
Lol MFW i can differentiate just 2 frames of lag. Well that because I play melee and our game works on 3.5 frames of lag. Any more and you just feel like certain tech is off. Because it is off. 1 frame of lag is difficult to detect but still doable. It just becomes more of a nuisance than unbearable.
Anyone who plays the game competitively will notice 4 more frames. Especially if they were playing the less lag version. It is much easier to go from more lag to less lag than it is to go from less lag to more lag.
They are talking bout input lag. I doubt your monitor or TV is capable of just 1 frame of input lag. Anything under 4 is going to cost you a lot of money. Average is 4-7. SFV has forced roughly double that on the ps4 version of the game, 13+frames. That's essentially 1/4 of every 60 frames is delayed. You hit a button it takes 13+frames before it registers/displays to the screen. It doesn't matter what TV or monitor you play on with the ps4 version, every display device will get 13+ frames of input lag via the game code.
Man you make the best FGC discussion analysis videos, well done
I agree wholeheartedly
Thanks for the support!
We made a video similiar to yours, but with a different core topic.
Really interesting to see yours, well done man! Love it!
I honestly don't think that the 8f are intentional, since PC gamers can pretty much disable the input delay with one click.
Also, instead of adding virtual delay, they could have also just lowered the startup of the characters movesets to get the same outcome without the game feeling sluggish.
No matter if it was intentional or not though, it IS a problem since PC gamers automatically play a different game.
Imagine honing your skills all your time on PC and then enter a PS4 only tourney. I could imagine these guys having troubles at first.
But in the end, we can only guess, since Capcom will definitely not talk about it.
Or... talk about anything (Ibuki release date, Capcom please...)
-Risuno
Its 100% no guess. Company's add the delay to established franchises in order to give casuals an handicap. This was explicitly stated for Brawl as Sakurai added all kinds of casual handicaps. With one of their buzz phrases for SFV on realease was "everyone can be like Diago"
Yall are smash dudes so from an FGC vet i can say with 100% certainty that CapCom casualized the game in a major way.
@@jdrmanmusiqking you mean give casuals an upper-hand? and i agree every major game franchise has had some sort of nerfing to appeal to a wider, more casual audience. i personally dont mind the trend that much if its done well but adding 8 frames of lag is a pretty bad way to do it imo
idk if this is relevant to this, but im pretty sure melee players still use crt monitors because of the lag that led and lcd monitors have.
they do. Any more than 2 frames will piss off anyone playing melee, myself included. Even then they still prefer virtually lagless CRTs
still waiting on that melee hd.. :(
Gamecube's also only output analog video which would induce lag to convert to a digital format for LCD monitors.
Smash games have no input buffering and generally speaking much tighter reaction / execution windows than street fighter. Tiny differences in timing like when you hit a player's shield can lead to missing ATs like an L-cancel that create a huge punish window for the other player. It's part familiarity and part design but the first two smash games just play totally differently with even a small amount of latency introduced.
I forgot that a lot of stuff in street fighter can actually be buffered. That's likely why the lag is a lot more tolerable. However, it's not true that Smash has zero input buffering.
Melee onward, you can buffer actions in shield using the c-stick
In brawl specifically, if you land on the ground while airdodging, you can buffer 10 frame perfect inputs during the ten frames right before landing so that they come out right after hitting the floor
I'm pretty sure there's something else I'm forgetting as well but whatever
Wow, Gerald! Great moves, keep it up, proud of you!
IMETHANBRADBERRY
+Core-A Gaming your reactions are Fast!
But...I like _Core_-*8* Gaming.
@@CoreAGaming SSSLAAAAAAMMMMMM
i don't think its an excuse at all, in my experience the street fighter games tend to be much more similar and easier to transition between games (comparing this to the switch from melee to brawl) when you play a game at high level and you're used to a game that has 4 frames of input lag and then all of a sudden you get an additional 4 frames it can really screw with your timing. Especially since SFV is relatively new is also why i don't feel like its an excuse, of course everyone will have to adapt eventually but if this was being said 3-4 years or so down the line of this games release then that grounds to call this an excuse but as of right now i believe it's a very real thing
Side note: I think this video is fantastic and important for bringing this change to people attention
Exactly, I was playing 3S and was getting grabbed on punish opportunities because I thought my reactions were fine. Had to re work my reaction going back to older sfs
Same, back in Brawl I didn't have those 6 frames of input lag in SMash 4 due to button delay...back in Brawl I could powershield on reaction...but Smash 4 you have to read ahead of time...which is quite annoying...I can literally see most players moves coming, but due to the game I either make so many misinputs from pressing buttons too fast or am not adapting well enough.
This is from blocking Super arts too. Like Ken's, I forgot how quick you had to be. In SFV, if you're too quick. It does that damn MKX type buffering in which your move won't come out at all/getting later inputs than the previous ones.
The less input lag the higher the skill ceiling, simple as that.
You make amazing analysis'. You're incredible underrated and this video was super in depth. Keep it up.
Vinttage riddles
Regardless of whether or not the theory is correct at the end, this video explains the actual effects of the input lag better than any other youtube vid or even written article i've come across. Very well done!
I dont really play fighting games no more but your videos make it feel like I never stop playing em.
I doubt they'll change it before the pro tour is over, but we need to complain as much as possible so that they change it next year
I would be mad if they changed it this year. I'd rather have them change the game next year than changing it mid season.
they got story and the last batch of characters to finish +capcom cup we ain't getting frame fixes anytime soon. not to mention the season 2 character line up
I'm paraphrasing but I like what floe said on CPT "It's the same game we have been playing since the beta. It's not going to change." I love and respect how deep you go with each topic. It's really refreshing! :)
I think Street Fighter V was wayyyy too rushed. It's disappointing to see this because SFIV was and still is incredible. I'm still playing my Ultra SFIV
remember vanilla SF4 sucked balls we talk about ULTRA sf4 and 3S not street fighter 3 and SF4 give the game a while and it will get better because they always do
@@mineerthegamer its been 3 years and irs gotten worse. Sf4 series had a peak lifespan in its first 4.
@@danielbenitez4120 Oh yeah shits fuuuucked man, eh hind sight is 20/20 as usual I guess
Ultra4 is still a step back from 3s. 5 is an even further step back. Sucks to see sf going in this direction.
@@kozmosius not going to lie I hate 3s the parry was a stupid mechanic that was bad for street fighter, the balance was awful, and wiff charging gives me an anurism. I'd much rather have another alpha 3 or darkstalkers 3 which were both far better games that should have influenced Street fighter more than they did.
You know this input lag is why I put down Street Fighter 5 and Tekken 7 and haven't picked them up again. I think about it but the initial experience didn't feel solid. While the argument is true that we can't react insanely fast it's something you can feel and I'm glad Capcom and Namco came out years ago saying there's built-in input, I thought I was losing my mind.
yeah, I know the feeling if thinking you're going crazy because if lag increases
I don't even know what this video is about but you had my curiosity, attention, and interest at Guile's Street Fighter EX theme.
Same here lol
No Johns. You either win, or you learn.
This is the philosophy that kneecaps competitive videogames if a game has an empirical design flaw "no johns" doesn't really apply.
Bad philosophy. I have to be able to criticize a bad design choice.
NO GARBAGE FIGHTING GAMES
I HAVE LEARNED NOT TO BUY CAPCOM GAMES
+Asteria Having 8 frames of in-game natural lag is an empirically bad design choice in genre focused entirely on reacting to stimuli. And even if it wasn't no johns doesn't apply.
so i bet mk9,s player 1 advantage of them always winning frame trades was a no johns to huh yeah get this toxic mentality out of here
Another great video!! Keep up the amazing content brothah.
Thanks brah!
Great Video as always!!
Lol, was the video even up for 8 minutes?
You're right, i saw an empty comment section and thought it would be cool to comment something. Now, since i didn't want to comment something like ''wow i am early let me make a joke'' i tried leaving a compliment since the quality of your videos is pretty consistent. =)
looking back now i probably should have said something like ''wooooo new video!!!''
No, I like the compliment better lol
Now that im done watching the video i can say the it was a ''Great Video as always!!''. Seriously i'm not a big fan of the FGC, i just play SFV for fun and i'm always blown away by your videos. They are really well made :D
As a defensive/conservative player i think its a huge issue. I still win more but i hate how i have no comfort zone for play style because of how the 8f delay works with the game. Also its not just the 8f delay its , lack of reversals , the only reversal mechanic being slow and having ton of tech against it like just outright throwing it on reaction to it , AAs being weak across the board besides dp characters and Birdie/R.Mika cr mp. Neutral pokes across the board being less varied and weaker hitbox wise. I feel like the lack of whiff recovery on mediums is lame as fuck also. Like they made them stubby and whiffable to make people fish for random hits and not as a poke tool. Instead like a normal fighter a cr medium normal is used to poke and force ground well being whiff punishable when fucked up/baited. SFV is a cluster fuck of bad design choices used to force people into a guess heavy strike throw game. Its neutral/defensive portions even without the 8f delay amplifying the offensive portions are weak. I see no fun to be had with it and id just rather play GG/KOF over it. Both can be insanely offensive but also reward good defensive choices.
ManowarHeigou o
Nothing like finding a 7 year old Core-A gaming video I haven't watched 60x. Miss ya
8 frames of lag makes it easy to get dashed and jumped in at. Also messes up your meaty attacks with wake up buttons.
no need, sfv is dying a slow, slow death... its up to capcom to adapt.
Alright i'll rephrase what he said for you, it's dying a slow death for anyone who's not stupid and value competitive play on ground, not underwater.
It doesn't make it easier to get jumped in on because the game has more jump frames.
You actually have MORE time to react (one frame lol but still) to a jumpin in SFV than in SF4 for characters that are in both games like Ryu.
Fantastic channel, you put a lot of work into this video and it shows. Well done.
Fantastic analysis. Your channel rocks.
Dear Core-A Gaming, you are growing to be my personal favorite CZcams channel with your indepth and informative videos, keep it up
Best discussion of the 8f issue happened to be between you and yourself. Amazing video as always honestly anyone who plays this game should be watching your videos.
It isn't an issue for my old man reactions.
Snake eyes is wrong. By default the PC version has 8 frames. Its only four when you turn off vsync which is not the tournament standard.
You don't need to turn anything off. Using a G-Sync monitor supercedes in game V-sync and lowers input lag.
PC version itself is not tournament standard. but at WNF they using it and probably with customized settings.
More than likely to artificially reduce the lag as much as possible. If you want faster response times I do see it becoming the standard though either way. No one wants inconsistent play, it could really mess up your strats.
I once asked a friend of mine, who's a well-known speedrunner, how he felt about SFV's input lag. He assumed it would be low because of it being a fighting game, and among one of the most prestigious ones, at that. When I told him it was 8 frames, he was mindblown, and he could not believe fighting game players are accepting it. I personally have always been a more defensive player, but in this game, I've had to kinda throw my defensive side away to finally see success. At the end of the day though, I'm not having as much fun as I wanted to have with this game, because there's so much I like about it.
I only know as much about this stuff as has been discussed online RE: Street Fighter V. To me, the best explanation is that the input latency is intentional, to more easily keep online + offline feeling the same. The more input lag that's present in the offline experience, the more wiggle room there is online, where the game can make up for network latency by shifting input timing within that 8F lag.
As you pointed out with the overhead frame data, the amount of lag can be compensated for with game design -- if it takes longer to react, then make the things you have to react to take longer. If you can't react to a cross-up because of 8F lag, slow down the cross-up a frame at a time and eventually you'll be able to react to it. If SFV ran at half speed, no one would have problems with 8F of input latency.
The limitations to this method of tweaking: (1) You don't want to introduce so much input lag that inputs "feel" laggy, and (2) you don't want to slow down the game so much that the game "feels" slow. I don't think Street Fighter V suffers from either.
Complaining about the input lag could be flipped into complaining that Capcom didn't correctly balance the speed of the game against the input latency. Or could be finding an excuse / finding something to rage about.
The problem with this as an answer: PC version has less lag, which is either an accident, or proof that it's a programming limitation in PS4, not a design choice.
Very informative video man, and also, that's a cool Periphery shirt!
Nice catch!
Jokes on you smash ultimate has 24 frames of lag
Jokes on you I still play sm4sh on CemU
No johns
@@austinpowers3659 What? No it doesn't. Ultimate has about 6 frames of native input lag, pretty much the same as Tekken 7. cdn.vox-cdn.com/uploads/chorus_asset/file/13626856/Screen_Shot_2018_12_14_at_1.17.51_PM.png
Where on earth are you getting the number 24 from?
@@jitsekuilman2492 woah your still playing carrying about the pedophile community in 2020 lmao
@@austinpowers3659 "Someone caught me lying and I don't have any kind of defense, so I'll just shout 'pedophile' and hope nobody notices."
Damn! Such in depth video.. technical,educative, funny, good references.. WAIT WHAT? Ibuki !?!?!
Yeah, Ibuki was announced like... yesterday.
Follow Street Fighter on social networks.
Input lag is introduced to compensate for network delays which mostly are in 40-80ms range, the attack can be transmitted to online opponent before they are played out. It's the price of a "good net code".
Imput lag is always a problem, bruh. I used to play 3rd strike a lot and pretty much all of my reactions and parries were at the last second, and i'm glad that the game was able to properly correspond in time. I wouldn't have been able to win as much as i did with 8 frames input delay
excellent and impressive work! this is what you call a CZcams video, others take notes!
Wow. Bro what the heck was your major in college you content is like the engineering explained version of gaming. Great stuff.
Coming from third strike and melee, I got used to the possibility of reacting with parries and other moves having a short window, I felt this enriched gameplay deeply as it was more and more down to the player if they lost than if they simply held back and were a few frames late past an artificial barrier. I have been playing smash 4 which has the same 8 frames of lag, and fighting characters with moves that are less than 8 frames that are safe of shield becomes a horrible chore, because even if you run in and block at the exact right time, you're punished anyway, in smash's case it's incentivesed safer playstyles. Honestly I hate this type of designed lag, it takes control away from the players and limits how many playstyles are effective. Plus clutch reactionary supers are amazing.
If it were an intentional design made for the sole reason of improving offensive gameplay, then wouldn't it intentionally be applied to both console *and* PC? It seems weird to overlook something so vital were it intentional. I believe that any core offensive changes would have been made through the characters and direct gameplay themselves, as opposed to intentionally lessening the responsiveness of the overall controllers.
they did make the change to both PC and console, but PC users has access to config files and are able to turn off v-sync
the 8 frame input lag is also present on PC as well, but if you turn off the the v-sync it will lower the input lag to 4.
You have no power here, weeb.
***** Weeb sympathizers will be shown no mercy!
***** Delete all the anime off your hard drive! Weeb!
I feel like there should be as little as input lag as possible. You want to maximize the load of reaction time being on the player. It’s just stupid to artificially add lag to anything. Minimize the lag without causing problems with the game running/ having problems with some people experiencing extra lag. As long as everything outside of the players control remains equal, always reduce lag
They patched it now. It's the same (or faster) than every other fighting game (3-4 frames). Average input lag in any modern fighter is 3-5 frames.
bro, I just wanted to say I humbly respect your channel and all of what you do.... I can only hope my videos could be of this type of quality
2:10 Hey Core-A Gaming, I'm from Assam which is a state in India and yeah we produce awesome Tea!
The best fighters are the ones that introduce the most amount of player-based skill. SFV is all about having a gameplan and executing it, and reaction-based gameplay suffers because of its design.
Oh, and eight frames is way too much :V
Lag is always bad. More lag means worse game. Period.
One more thing. If I play a character with meterless DP at 0 input lag, I can actually just keep mashing the stick down to downforward back and forth repeatedly and just watch my opponent's animation, the second I see an attack(not including jab/short) start up I'd be able to DP. Something worthy of note is that Ryu's DP is 3-5 frames depending on which button you use but you add 8 more frames to it and now anti airs aren't as guaranteed anymore. I feel the input lag is there to balance out the DP characters because they clearly have an edge over the entire cast.
8 years later, but 8 frames didnt sound like a lot until you showed the equivalent in ms and thats genuinely insane, i couldnt imagine playing online competitive games with that much extra lag.
It really does kill the more defensive players which is what I am strong at it guess that's why I found this game harder to adapt to then past games
I fear Capcom won't change it now because most players (especially pro) have become used to it. I'm just happy I play on PC and can turn off shit like vSync and motion blur.
This is a great video in terms of execution alone! The clips used are hilarious and recognizable, the pacing and timing of the usage is great, plus one of my favorite SF tunes of all time "Strange Sunset"!
the quality of your videos is insanely high, Gerald! I love watching your content
I get annoyed when I experience a 4 frame lag, but 8?! No thanks X(
Played the game before I knew about the 8 frames was a thing and considered the controls to be quite responsive. It probably affects the top tier players in some fashion, but if an average player is complaining about 8 frame lag --> Johns
Love the video!
it's mostly defensive players that the lag affects.
If you're a reactive punisher (i.e anyone who plays a grappler) You're gonna get boned. Even at an intermediate level u can feel it. I just thought it was my friends TV.
You played sfv and it felt responsive? Were you playing other games on a plasma screen tv with 8 adapters or something?
i'm a total scrub when it comes to fighting games, but i play a lot of 3rd person action games like bayonetta or dmc and the first thing i thought when trying out the beta months ago was "damn this game feels unresponsive and wrong"
you really don't have to be a top tier fighting game player to notice, just someone who plays a fair amount of games that require quick reactions and timing
genitur I've probably been spending too much time under lag conditions that I don't notice it.
Really good video man! I've been thinking about the 8 frames for a while. The only other fighting game I play competetivly is melee, which only has 3 frames of lag. That made me think 8 frames were ridiculous. Thanks for the great explanation on the matter. Keep it up! 😄
i dont even play fighter games but i cant stop watching your videos
I'll just leave this here.
Recently I've been testing the latency of various fighting games using an alternative method that doesn't involve any controller or graphic related delays (such as gamepad converters, monitor latency, or V-sync). It's supposed to measure the "raw" intrinsic delay imposed by the game mechanics. Basically the method consists in simply playing games in super slow motion on PC, with Cheat Engine's Speedhack or Frame advancing with emulators. These were my results:
GAME: Skullgirls 2nd Encore
TOOLS: CE
DELAY: 0 frames
|
GAME: Dead or Alive 5 Last Round
TOOLS: CE + Frame Counter tool
DELAY: 0 frames when guarding, 1 for the rest
|
GAME: Street Fighter III: 3rd Strike
TOOLS: FBA-RR + input-display.lua
DELAY: 1 frame
|
GAME: Ultra Street Fighter IV
TOOLS: CE + Frame Trapped IV
DELAY: 1 frame
|
GAME: Street Fighter V
TOOLS: CE
DELAY: 2 frames
|
GAME: Street Fighter Alpha 3
TOOLS: FBA-RR + input-display.lua
DELAY: 3 frames
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GAME: Street Fighter II: The World Warrior
TOOLS: FBA-RR + input-display.lua
DELAY: 3 frames
SFV itself is not too horrible, it's just the default V-Sync and non-legacy controllers that ruin it. Of course it would be great if they fixed it to become Skullgirls levels of awesomeness.
Great video. But you lost me in the end. Why would this be on purpose? To match the slower overhead startup times in SFV? Why not just reduce the startup times instead?
The faster the gameplay gets the harder it is to react. The whole idea of SFV was its an approachable and playable game, not that its a twitch reaction competition. This would make it much easier for other people to get in, as you're not butting heads with the ultra fast reaction times.
Brett Stevens
Well that's why I mentioned reducing the startup times, and then also reduce the lag. It's particularly strange that the PC version only has 4f of lag, if what PR Rog said in the video is true. If that's the case, I don't see why 8f on PS4 would be intentional.
Speeding up the game isn't going to fit their modus operandi. Incredibly quick execution based games exist in a lot of places. BlazBlue, KoF, most of your popular "anime" fighters will serve that. SFV is trying to be as approachable as possible, this lag is just another way to level the playing field.
Hiku Its my understanding that its 8 frames unless you fiddle with ini files and other away from game settings, correct? If this is true, then my assumption hasn't changed.
Brett Stevens
I wouldn't know. Maybe it is 8f by default on PC. I'd have to look that up. Though I still don't understand why they'd increase response delay rather than adjust startup frames of moves. According to Core A Gamer in the video, the increased startup lag (compared to SF4) is the same as the overall change made to overheads startup frames.
Excelent analysis +Core-A Gaming! I still have my hopes to see Snake Eyez getting some top places now that he is playing Alex too.
With the news of SamSho's 8 frame lag, this has become relevant once again....
I don't buy the theory on how the 8 frames were intentional. UE4 (the engine SFV was programmed on) has vsync enabled by default. It's widely known that enabling vsync adds input lag and that's where the 8 frames are coming from. Of course Capcom could disable vsync but that would introduce other problems they don't really want to deal with (like possible screentearing). Considering the sorry state SFV was released in, and considering the rumours like how the netcode/CFN was created by one man, I think they just enabled vsync and never looked back.
1:05 WeLl TeChNiCalLy It'S 16 FrAmEs
Great job on the video. Good information.
I am a reactionary player from 3rd strike. You just saved me some money. Thank you soooo much bro.
Dude youre content is so well made like wow. It has such a feel like BBC shoule be airing this
Everyone gets the same lag, so if you can't adapt then it's your own fault. It doesn't mean you're bad, it just means you have more to learn.
Wether or not you adapt has nothing to do with it. A lot of people complaining about it are people who benefit from it.
Because everyone has the same limitation doesn't mean it's healthy for the game or pushes the game forward.
Exemple being SSBB, they dumbed down the game to the point it became a camping experience where players won by time-out and nobody watched the streams. The more players "adapted" to the slower gameplay, the least the game was supported and it died.
Ramza Beoulves When you put it that way, it makes more sense. Thanks
Matthew Juliana
That reply is way too polite for the internet. We need more people like you to lead us through the dark times good sir.
Have a nice day!
Ramza Beoulves ♥
i would be nice to have less frames of lagg for reactive play but how long and how much would it cost? capcom isnt making much with SFV compared to the MKX and the guys who make sliced bread
It would definitely require a pretty big rebalance of the game, but Capcom did say they are going to tweak the game based on feedback so who knows
What are you talking about? SF easily outsells MK 2 to 1.
Sadly not as of late
Sorry to tell you , but MKX is running circles around SFV in sales.
Sora
MKX has been out for more than a year longer than SFV. SFV also has not really been released yet, Capcom and Sony haven't even advertised it yet until the game will be finished.
Great vid. I feel like this introduces new players to the FGC. But kind of alienates the players who wanted to get better in terms of playing on the same level as the pros.
it has been 8 years now and i'ts been recommended to me. I see what CZcams algorithm did there
Doesnt bother me, games still fun
Agree it's still fun as hell but removing extra frames would only improve it. Games would be much more methodical and mindless aggression would be punished to hell.
MrNeo If you play like a braindead, yeah it's that fun lol smh.
Ive seen many pro players whiff punishing and playing great footsies. If the game became more responsive i wouldn't mind but the majority of people are just complaining because they want to hate on the game. or make excuses I mean Look at Justin Wong an extremely footsie based player and how good he's doing. The only player which i sort of understand his gripes is Snake eyes i believe that Zangief's frame data is very slow and he's specifically being very disadvantaged by the 8 frames of input lag.
Im also vert tired of people complaining that jumps are used a lot, people really forget that the meta of a game always evolves do you really think that players will not find any ways to punish jumpins eventually? Something that the Smash community knows and the FGC community should learn is that the Meta of the game is in subject of change. I dont know how many times smash players have changed the Meta and drastically modified the way the game is played. Theres even times when mango says that the meta of the game is not benefiting him, that he doesnt like it and wants to change it by going to the lab. Yet we have FGC players complaining about a game with a 4 month old meta game.
heavytransit No hate on the game, the game is that bad, let's be honest.
This video was very enlightening. Everything you explain is how I feel SFV plays is & now I know why it has that feel.
I love how you make your points in a educated and respectful way (I might don`t agree with but I'm subscribing to your channel now :)
1st world problems
I'm a scrub, but I never noticed nor payed attention to the lag until Snake Eyes said something. I feel like MOST people didn't even notice the lag and are just jumping on the bandwagon so that they can use it as a scapegoat for their losses.
***** Been playing sf since super turbo including spin off such as the alpha series, capcom fighting evolution, Ex series, etc and I didn't find the lagtency input particularly overwhelming; in fact, I didn't notice any input delay at all.
Yea, just another way to protect your ego. Same with purposely picking a low tier character ( or refusing to pick a high tier character) just so you can say-- or subconscious think--," Well, if I used a high tier character I would have won." We all subconsciously try to protect our ego (in regards to everything in life, not just SF), and this is just yet another scapegoat to deflect responsibility and lack of skill when we lose.
You are part of the problem
Duranarts care to elaborate?
False, calling out your bullshit. I had no knowledge of any intentional input delay but immediately began to complain online that the game was off, it was laggy, my moves weren't coming out even though my inputs were 100% correct.
Omega Prophet
"complain online"
"complain ONLINE"
"COMPLAIN ONLINE!"
Man, great as always!
I really like your production on the videos, you do it really good, keep doing it bro!
Cheers from Brazil!
I actually feel like this makes it more tricky for me. It might be just me, but Im stil adjusting to the sort of "spongy" feel of the controls. I feel like I'm always thinking and pushing ahead of my character.
I agree with the reasons of why Capcom added the lag and I also believe it was also a way to get new comers into the game. It makes combos easier....and everyone wants to do combos.
It's not a giant excuse for those who can't adapt, pro 8 frames of lag is a giant excuse for those who can't REACT.
Great video! I didnt know that Spirit of The Law was making analysis of fighting games too! :P
Nice Periphery shirt
And nice informative, well explained video btw :P
Informative, in depth, and memes? Great video. I always instantly click on your videos when i see them in my sub box. Your content never ceases to intrigue me
Strange Sunset. I subscribe.
Karin's Theme. I try to subscribe again.
Awesome tea and awesome video!
hnnnnnggggg...That intro, strange sunset from the ex series...sooo good...
love your vids dude, high quality stuff right here
I've always wondered about the relationship between the input lag and the display lag. For example if you have a faster internet connection you may be responding faster than the other player, or it may be the other way around if you have slow internet or upload speeds it takes longer for your game to upload info so your computer has my info and is displaying it slightly earlier than the other player. I mention that because playing SF3 3rd strike online was sometimes horrible because your character wouldn't respond or other players would teleport around the screen or your character would stop blocking and reacting while theirs seemed to be moving so well and responding so well - parrying all your moves while I could hardly parry a fireball etc.
I'd like to think the 8 frames of lag is to compensate for lag in online matches and that it was left in for the offline mode to help people adapt to this but there is always this feeling that it was added to make the game more accessible to players who are not as competitive. I'd rather think that it was added with the intention of it benefiting online play rather than just making it easier for less skilled players to do better. I could be wrong but I would rather believe that they had the best of intentions.
Love this channel, keep the videos coming. It would be awesome if you could make a video that analyzes the differences and highlights key features of different fighting game franchises (ie: what is the difference btw SF, KI, MK, etc. and makes them unique?). I love fighting games but I only play a few of them. I'd love to know more about the other relevant franchises on the scene right now (Guilty Gear, Killer Instinct, Skull Girls etc.) and know what I'm missing out on. I'd like to branch out but that's already intimidating and I don't wanna jump into a series I know nothing about.
Just a suggestion from a subscriber, thanks for the content.
I like this video! Aside from the sweet science, I loved how you added your analysis.
Im okay with the idea of the "8 frame delay" or artificial frame delay as long as all versions of that game support the same delay. This would make it so that metas between platform are more closely aligned. And if all versions are under this umbrella of being synced then we can verge to more cross-platform multiplayer.
Your A core-a gaming logo looks too much like Academy of Art branding, the line down the middle and your contact info on the right also matches their format.
i thought the "jittery from coffee shaking" was funny for one full second, but it moves too much for far too long...make it blurry next time so the sharp outline isnt demanding attention.
Thanks for compiling the work of others into this vid, and adding your take on it i guess.
Early on-line games dealt with lag in several ways.
Doom slowed down everyone's game to match the player with the slowest connection. This left everyone equal but the game would be slow as hell when someone with a 2400 baud modem dialed in (I think they recommended 9600 as a minimum...).
Descent did a weird thing where the players' computer's refereed gameplay independently of each other, which gave an advantage to slower computers as they weren't able to do things, like track missile trajectories, as quickly and accurately. Full disclosure: I had the slowest comp of my friends. When their computer said I was dead from a mega missile hit, mine said I was fine. Strangely enough, the opposite was also true: my computer would register my missile had missed, and yet they would die a few seconds later from my missile hitting them since their computer could more accurately track the missile.
Quake left the decision on whether a shot landed up to an independent host machine, which freed player computers from having any kind of referee role. This meant someone on dial-up would get the same information as someone on a T1 connection, just slightly slower. NetQuake (my preferred variant) left the players to read the lag on their own, meaning they'd press a button and have to wait for something to happen, predicting on their own what might have happened in the meantime. The other variant, QuakeWorld, had predictive algorithms, resulting in instantaneous response when a player pressed a key. However, if the algorithm's parameters weren't tweaked properly, the host would over-ride the player's computer, meaning you could be safely halfway down a hallway when you'd suddenly be flying through the air in the opposite direction, dead from a quad-rocket blast you thought you'd escaped. This predictive method has been fine-tuned over the years and is a staple of pretty much any online game you might play with independent hosts.
For me, even though on average I had about 250ms of lag on my 28.8 modem (vs 30-60ms that a standard broadband connection afforded), I always preferred reading the lag in NetQuake myself. I must've spent 100s of hours practicing moving through levels to get timings down, getting a feel for how quickly I could draw a bead on a target, and how my character reacted to different external stimuli (like rocket blasts and such). When I got those timings down off-line, I was able to dominate my opponents with pretty much any lag, a thing I tested by playing on servers in Australia with 600+ms of lag. Even today, with Korea's crazy gigabit connection speeds, I still prefer to play NetQuake on US servers, where I'm comfortably in my 250ms of lag zone.
QuakeWorld though, and even modern FPS like Halo, never feel quite right to me, mainly because I never fully trust that what I'm seeing is what is happening due to the imperfectness of predictive algorithms.
>>>tl;dr
System lag is something one should be able to adapt to, so long as one is aware it's there. For me, lag feels like weight: with a lighter weight you think and then quickly move. With a heavier weight you still think the same speed, you just take a little longer to move. This forces you to be a few more steps ahead at all times.
your reaction time is epic.