Gabriel Agreste - Villainy At It's Most Stale | A Critical Retrospective
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- čas přidán 22. 05. 2024
- Gabriel Agreste is one of the most inconsistently written villains I've ever seen. It's time for me to explain exactly why.
Chapters:
00:00 Intro
01:24 Gabriel In Season 1
04:01 Gabriel In Season 2
12:08 Gabriel In Season 3
17:20 Gabriel In Season 4
23:22 The Part Where Everything Went Wrong
30:03 Conclusion
31:34 Outro
Music used for the Season 5 section was from here:
• Zelda: Breath of the W...
13:02 clip from ShayMay's Exhaustive Look at Omega Ruby
![Why Cedric is an Amazing Character [Sofia the First]](/img/n.gif)
Its so funny how Gabriel switches from being genuinely caring towards his son to actually not giving a single shit what happens to him
It's funnier when it happens on the drop of a hat.
Gabriel one morning: Time to make my son's life absolute f*cking nightmare!
Gabe: "I'm doing it for her, son. For you."
Narrator: "Gabriel was not doing for his wife or son."
Love it
Within the same episode too
Honestly the show didn't know if they wanted a serious villain or a entertaining cartoony villain and ended up making neither and just made this pathetic depressing slop. his peak was 100% gorizilla it's the time where he's the most interesting and it's down hill from there imo
100% agree
I sometimes compare him to Doofenshmirtz, he's also a cartoony villain with a somewhat sympathetic story who got redeemed by the end of the show, the thing is that he's more believable to be redeemable, many of his inventions aren't that harmful and even he has the tendecy to self sabotaging himself, for example he always takes a step back everytime it seems like he's winning, or his inventions always having a self destruct button, even after being redeemed he had to do community service
I still can’t over that Gabriel dance scene, like damn that musical number came out of nowhere but it was so damn funny with that goofy-ahh music, and the animation…oh dear WHYYYY 😭😭😭
@@LadyMajolish That honestly for a moment made me hate him less till like the next scene made a similar amount of annoyed
@@reneflores5976 Also Doof is able to be both while gabriel fails in both
Chat blanc destroyed what was left of my sympathy for him, In the episode, he tossed his son flying across paris after knowing his identity and then akumatized him and breaking him mentally which caused him to snap and trigger the apocalypse murdering the entire population on earth, Just who the hell thought it was a good idea to give his son infinite destruction that is so dumb and he didn't even flinch or hesitate to violate his only son and push him to the breaking point, there are hundreds of ways to get the damn miraculous from his son but he chose the worst possible way to achieve it, The miraculous movie (spoilers alert) gabriel was portrayed as a concerned and anxious widower who wants to bring back his family the way it was before he snapped in the climax and almost killed adrien, but when he found out who he is he broke down in tears, terrified at the realisation that he almost ended what was remained of his family. It actually what caused him to quit his evil ways and cherish the memory of his late wife and what she would think of him if she was here, tv gabe is a psychopath while movie gabe is sympathetic
I think I was about 2 sentances into this when I realized how batshit insane..the fucking.. show is… going from goofy dumb show to EVERYONE ON EARTH FUCKING DIES IN AN APOCALYPSE just makes me question how they’re going to end this show.
I completely agree.
I still think Its funny how Felix accomplished everything Gabriel wanted to do from five seasons in one single episode. He stole every single miraculous, outsmarted ladybug and made her doubt abilities majorly, which led her to break down. Gabriel feels like a joke villain when compared to him
Yeah 😂 it’s ironically poetic
I mean to be fair, wasn't ladybug affected by risk(Akumitized villain) when Felix got his hands on the yoyo? I would argue that the credit should go to Gabriel or maybe Nathalie in this case.
@@ChaseGeiger-bk7oqHe got the yoyo right after Risk was beaten. She may have given Felix the Dog miraculous while affected but even then, her reasoning in that moment was sound. She gave the miraculous to someone she knew was unaffected by Risk, which would work out perfectly if it actually was Adrien.
Felix only won because he looks like Adrian otherwise he wouldn't have been able to steal the miraculouses
@@maxchristopher4352 Doesnt matter lol, he took advantage of the situation. If this was dumb gabe, he wouldve taken the dog and run away, but felix took advantage.
I think the actual reason why Gabriel relies on Chloe so much is because the writers desperately want to double down on their flimsy point that Chloe is an unlikeable irredeemable monster who doesn't deserve to be happy in life. It's basically just damage control.
which is weird considering the show had firmly made the case that the akuma villians are in fact victims. that they were taken advantage when they were feeling the most negative and the one you should judge is the ones taking advantage of those people. they made a clear case that chloe's fall was literally set up by hawkmoth. he took her family hostage, told her directly that them being targetted was due to her to her face, leading to her running to her signal to contact ladybug, just for him to have cut the power so she can't call LB for help, isolating her on a rooftop, actively digging into her insecurities(which he knows well as a family friend) and then took the other kwamis, specificlaly pollen hostage. I knw alot of people got distracted by chloe blaming LB for her choice where it sounds like she is being entitled about being a miraculous holder...but people tend to forget chloe only agreed when he released her parents and how if she HADN'T said yet...he would have kept all of the other kwamis where then she;d be alone with a angry adult guy villian who is NOT above physcical violence if mayura is anything to go by.
like I know the show made it so now your kindof magically compelled to give in...but hawkmoth still has to manipulate people at their lowest and get them to agree by pretending to be a friend who understands and validates their feelings.
the show has made a point that people doing the manipulating is in the wrong...so them trying to put it on chloe feels off when Gabe LITERALLY had to create a scenerio to make chloe feel that horrible to get her to agree after emotional manipulation.
I mean yeah I get choices have consequences but we tha audience have info mari doesn't so it feels WEIRD the show is trying to make us believe chloe is the worst one unless the twist is mari is wrong and doesn't find out she's wrong until its too late.
if they want a completely irrdeemable villian lila is RIGHT there if they want to try to foster it on a teen anyway.
@@clarisacalderon9555the reason is because Thomas Astruc was bullied as a kid by someone like Chloe so he created Chloe with his bully in his mind
@@No-nt3vj but if thats the case why do such a good job showing her redeemable qualities the first three seasons and have her spiral parallel how both mari and adrien relied on old behavior to cope and distract themselves and others from facing their real feelings pver things they feel bad for? like it feels kindof petty to set her up redeemable and show aspects of it and then try to make up not believe what we saw with our eyes. even i i get a point if its not the bullied person's job to fix the bully.
@@clarisacalderon9555 season 2 was written by someone else which is why she even had a redemption
Chloe deserves to be part of a better show.
As someone who watched the original french version of the show, just wanted to correct one tiny mistake: In the french version, Hawk Moth never really says he wants to "rule the world", just that the miraculouses would give the "absolute power", which is consistent with this motivation to bring back his wife (he wants to unleash the "absolute power" to make a wish and bring Emilie back). As such his motives remained ambiguous in season 1. The english translators ignored his motives back then so gave him a generic villain motive
Thanks for telling me. That definitely clears things up.
Ah
@@gracekim25
czcams.com/video/kLhBe5B5LHc/video.html&ab_channel=ActuDr%C3%B4leDuNet
I can only hope the English translators didn't know about this Hawkmoth is Gabriel shift at first. Otherwise, maybe they would have been a little more accurate to the original.
This is always the detail that Astruc frustrated me with. He himself said bad people cannot be redeemed that they are beyond help, but whines about Chloe only to still redeem Gabriel! Astruc really needs to let go of his stupid hate boner on Chloe.
Given that Chloe is rumored to be modeled after his school bully. And there's also the time he tweeted that anyone that likes Chloe or were mad at her failed Redemption arc is an abuser. It's unlikely, he'll ever let it go.
@@ceeford9919yeah that’s a sign of immaturity
Even the one RESPONSIBLE for enabling Chloe’s behavior was redeemed in the end. But just the man…the woman responsible is just as bad as Chloe and is beyond redemption. Funny how all the MEN were redeemed…but not the woman and girl…in a show meant to “empower” girls…
@@Angi3_6 Exactly! It’s seems so misogynistic!
@Angi3_6 Tbf, I don't think this is a case of misogyny since both Natalie and Sabrina got redeemed easily without their wrongdoings being acknowledged, similarly to how Gabe, felix and andre got redeemed.
My God, they really fumbled the bag with this one. It's like the writers didn't know what type of villain they wanted Gabriel to be, the sympathetic one or the irredeemable one, so they just did both at the same time!
Exactly.
Pretty much
I mean, they did it badly, too. I feel like they have a better way to do it
Gabriel completely lost sight of the whole reason he wanted the miraculous in the first place.
After he obtained all the miraculous he had the ability to go back in time. He had the opportunity to save his wife, but he had to be greedy and power hungry.
He gave up the chance to save his wife on a hunch.
I'm happy he did otherwise Felix's father would be back too
@@billykaplan9915 yea it’s good that he did for the sake of the show, but it’s still a nasty thing to do
@@Veronica-Palmer._. to be fair would be horrible to bring Emily cause she would go insane if she did revived
@@billykaplan9915 well if he would’ve actually changed the past there would have been massive consequences. Likely cat noir and ladybug would’ve never happened.
Not gonna lie I would love to see a world where he did give them the medicine, but the world turned out so awful so Adrien would ultimately have to choose between his mother and the world. Idk if that made sense
@@Veronica-Palmer._. there's no reason that the world would become awful
I actually really liked the Gabe x Nathalie thing. I kinda expected them to go in the direction where Gabriel realizes his feelings for her, and gives up villainy. Finally moving on from Emelie, and Adrien ending up with a new Step mom.
That would've been so good!
@@ACriticalRetrospective right? Let's hope the Movie's go that direction
And then Lila could take the villain role and Chloe gets her GOD DAMN REDEMPTION ARK
Yeah that would be much better than what they went for
He is now someone with BPD but on with nukes
Yeah!
It's wild how much better the movie does with making him sympathetic. In the show, he's pretty abusive and everyone chalks it up to him being overbearing/overprotective.
Yes, the movie was SO MUCH better and also didn't have the whole....'sacrifice' thing.
The thing I hate about Monarch is the fact he NEVER uses the good miraculous. From dragon to monkey. But then again, I remind myself. We can’t end the show yet. We need to redeem to asshole because apparently he deserves it.
I mean, to be fair, neither of those miraculous are used that much by the heroes. Which is frustrating because the dragon miraculous has to be one of the most useful miraculouses in the box, and the monkey can one-shot villains easily.
The Writers didn't Give the Ox and Dragon and Monkey Enough Chances even the Mirculous holders in S3-S4 Didn't even be used By them only jus 1 Time but when Gabriel uses them he only uses them 1 time but never uses them in battle wit ladybug which is depressing
He only used the dragon in evolution which is really dumb 😭
Just spam rooster and say "i have the power to float specific objects towards me" and then use it to float the miraculous towards him
13:04 I think they should have added even more sexual tension.
I know this video is about Gabriel, but honestly, Natalie's pity crush on Gabriel paradoxically makes a lot of sense and no sense at the same time, and it confuses me to no end.
It makes sense because Natalie is, in a way, the "loyal henchman" character. The character who is loyal to the main villain and thinks the villain is loyal in return when, in reality, the villain couldn't care less about them.
And I know this from the way Natalie will rarely tell Gabriel off for the way he treats his son, at least in season one. She just puts up with a lot of his nonsense and goes about her day like nothing is happening. Then, she puts her own health at risk for him.
But it also DOESN'T make sense when you take in the other half of Natalie's character. She's very prim and proper and orderly. She cares enough about Adrien to feel guilty when lying about the birthday present from Gabriel. She homeschools him even though that probably isn't in her job description as an assistant. And she comes across as a no-nonsense person who *wouldn't* just take Gabriel being a bad father with a straight face. Or like she wouldn't get in between Gabriel and his wife.
If anything, it would make more sense for Natalie to have been the one holding Gabriel back from doing too much damage in both sides of his life.
But the writers, like with most things, don't do that. They just have Natalie flip-flop back and forth between loving Gabriel, hating him, and being indifferent to him.
Which is it, writers? Is Natalie an assistant, a loyal henchman, a homewrecker or just there to be there?
The other thing is We have NO IDEA when she found out about him being Hawkmoth 😅
@gracekim25 IIRC, in rise of the sphinx it was revealed that Natalie knew his identity from the start. Nonetheless, this type of information should've been included in the show.
@@user-dk3lg9np6p You can tell the writers were making this stuff up as they went along sometimes. Now, that's not an inherently bad thing. Things change and writers come up with new ideas all of the time. But it's obvious that the writers didn't really have much in the way of a game plan in mind when they first started working on this show, so they rewrite and recon stuff to try to fix that and mess it up even more. And as such, Natalie suffers from this attempt to rework the plot.
I remember hearing somewhere back before the release of season two that season one was only written in three months. I assume it takes a lot longer than that, so I imagine time was also a big behind-the-scenes problem. Since the writers had no time to think their writing through, the characters didn't get much time to work through their own issues and arcs.
@@user-dk3lg9np6pWOW😅 just wow it SHOULD have been in the show 🤦♀️
@@frankielovejoy9928wait 3 months? Yeah that explains why the lore is incoherent 😅
Before I watch this video, I just wanna say.
Don't get me wrong, I love the villain concept they were going for Gabriel: Started out genuinely tragic & sympathetic and actually cared for his son's safety, but his obsession over power & defeating a bunch of teenagers overruled his original goal of saving his wife, that he's gone full-blown irredeemable terrorist willing to risk his son if it can give him a better chance at winning.
Unfortunately I think the writers fumbled up on that idea. Especially with what they did in the Season 5 Finale. What were they trying to redeem him at the last second, and now the public thinks he's a hero and Adrien never got his final confrontation with him.
This is honestly why I prefer the movie because Adrian gets to KNOW 😅
You want to know the most evil thing Gabe did in SS5?
When it’s confirmed Gabe uses flour instead of butter in his pancakes. Making them dry like the desert. That is PURE EVIL!!!
No wonder his pancakes taste awful
@@hdnallstars4471 you better believe it
@@MGory828 Yeah! Even Essence's minions can make better pancakes than him 😈
@@hdnallstars4471 As the writer of that psychopath, I can confirm they probably can. I say probably because they ain’t no cooks. They are psycho killer.
@@hdnallstars4471 They probably can
14:44 THANK YOU! I never got why he was so fixated on recruiting Chloe. As much as I like her, Lila is a much sidekick. She is intelligent, manipulative, does most dirty work herself. While Chloe is just a spoiled bully who whines to get what she wants
True Chloe is good for causing day to day akuma villains but having her as an actual team member is weird
They probably noticed, however, Thomas has an iron grip on the writing so strong the writers don't have the final say in the writing. So the bias/double standards with Chloe, Gabriel, and even Felix in the series are because of his own biases.
Throughout the show Gabriel shows frantic inconsistencies with his personality, and this is a problem with the show overall, even simple powers like the "fetch" keeps changing, and i think i know why,
Thomas mentioned in an interview his method of writing is focusing on the moment, meaning that if he needs to add tension somehow he's just gonna do it regardless of future planing or pre-established facts , he referrs to ladybug describing the miraculous as indestructible as something he would change if he could, and we know how major of a plot point is the fragility of miraculouses
And seemingly this mindset is also why Gabriel is never the same in two episodes
He's humain now and irredeemable tomorrow, blink and he might be dancing or something idk...
And we can see how this approach effected everything else in the show too,
Like butchering chloe after disagreeing with the writing team
And Lukas revelations being obsolete except in the single episode he had to wrap it up
... Lila's randomness
Oh😅 so basically: he DOES NOT plan ahead and writes on a WHIM. Writing on a whim only gets you so far (and inconsistencies)😶
He said the Simpsons doesn't have a consistent timeline, so why should his show? It's whatever month it needs to be. That way you can almost every episode in any order. The status quo is always reset. If we can't see any character development, it's our fault. This is the same guy that criticized Wonder Woman 1984, and every single problem he had with it could be applied to his own show.
Comedy shows build their status quo as a sandbox for the writors and the intention is to make you laugh, not weave a cohesive narrative
But He wrote a superhero/magical girl romance and treated it like a comedy,
This "every episode you watch is a good entry point" mantra worked for season 1 and 2, but when you're 100+ episodes deep it's just unnecessary
As a result some episodes are fun in isolation but in the slightest given context it falls apart
@@bwpanda344was gonna reply to ggrarl with this exact comment. The simpsons gets away with it because its a sitcom, its not supposed to be taken seriously, nor is any show with that setup. Theyre designed as sandboxes with little to no depth or overarching story to them to be played in for however long the audience will like.
Miraculous is an action drama superhero show with an ongoing plot and wants to be taken seriously. If you as a writer dont take it seriously, people arent going to either, which becomes a problem if that isnt your intention. I understand wanting a Saturday serial type thing, but if you want it to be deeper than that, then you have to put in the work. You cant just act like things are important arc after arc, then expect no one to be upset when the plots meant nothing and you hit the reset button. If you want the audience to take your show seriously, but you dont do the same as the creator, you don't have the right to be upset when the audience doesn't either. You can't just label the people upset as "incompetent fools who don't understand storytelling" when you fail to deliver a comprehensible story, whether it be indecision, bad ideas, or lack of innovation at fault. To tell a good story you need to be decisive and know what works, while keeping things fresh and in line with your story. Fail to do so, and it falls apart. Comedies and less story heavy shows get away with bending that whether for comedic effect or because the show is simple enough to not have to worry about that, but if you present your show as serious, deep, and story heavy, then you have to deliver. You don't get to blame anyone if it sucks, because you are THE CREATOR, and last i checked Thomas has an iron grip on the writing room, so the excuse of a poor writing team doesn't apply because it's literally one guy with minimal assistance that likely couldn't impact the quality whatsoever. A serial drama with both inconsequential AND consequential events are possible, but if you make it so nothing ever even changes, then whats the point besides to frustrate the audience? Its like texting someone busy about an emergency, making them put down what they're doing to help only for the emergency to be needing to open a gummy pack. It's irritating, and that's the Miraculous formula. It's always hyping things up only for what could've been the saving grace the show needed to be snuffed out and wasted for absolutely no purpose than because "it's what the creator wants", and it's dissapointing. Every. Time. It's wasted potential incarnate, sacrificing character development and plots that influence the story for the sake of a status quo that serves to only restrain the show from being anything more than a sitcom, and a bad one at that. If you want a lighthearted serial then make one, but don't lead an audience on with promises of some huge dramatic superhero show only to backpedal. It's not that hard. Absolutely disgraceful Thomas.
I made an absolute essay didnt I😭 i only meant to say like a paragraph but got carried away. If you read all the way i appreciate it, have a cookie 🍪🥲
@@littleweird4807 7 years of betrayal and disappointment, no pressure,
*🍪 Nom nom nom nom~
I think the concept of Gabriel as the main villain would be something more or less similar to Harumi in Ninjago.
Everything he was doing was to bring Emily back to himself and Adrien, but he spent so much time trying to get the Miraculouses that he became obsessed, even forgetting why he was doing all this. The series even shows this in the first episode of season 5, but at the same time, there are many inconsistencies throughout the series to really support it.
The idea of him emotionally destroying Adrien could be well executed, because it would be a way of showing how he lost himself, but... the series exaggerated this too much and his redemption only seemed forced in the end.
That's a very good parallel! It's nice to see Harumi being brought up again.
To be fair though I feel Harumi is a better done villain even if her motive doesn’t make that much sense
@@langdonledwig3734I actually like that her motive doesn’t make much sense. It shows that she’s so affected and hurt by her trauma that she doesn’t logically think about the situation, she’s motivated only by her pain and emotions, nothing else.
Wish they didn't had the "senti-monster children" plot and have made Adrien and Felix be twin brothers but the Peacock made it that Adrien is "their child". They could've easily made Gabriel be flipping emotions because he knows Adrien isn't his "real" son but Emilie really wanted children or him being frustrated that he couldn't provide his wife with their own children.
I’m still convinced that they went that route because the fan theory was so popular 😅
The fact movie Gabriel is much better at balancing the whole “goofy Saturday morning cartoon villain vs. villain with a tragic motivation” among other things proves to me that the common denominator in all the problems with writing in this series are linked to Thomas Astruc.
Gabriel Agreste had the potential to be such a fascinating villain, he could have had Emperor Belos vibes.
Belos used his love for his brother and the human race as an excuse to enslave and ultimately destroy and entire race of people. Belos cloned and KILLED his own brother HUNDREDS of times because he could never seem to keep his brother from being "corrupted". He was completely fine murdering thousands of people and it was all motivated by this weird fucked up love he had for his brother he himself MURDERED and humanity. He said it himself, he was trying to "save humanity", that was his goal.
Gabe could have had such a similar story, motivated by his destructive love for his family, willing to terrorize thousands of people every day for YEARS just for the chance to bring his beloved wife back. Endangering his own beloved son every chance he could just so he could have the chance of having his family again in the end. He doesnt care who he hurts or how many times he fails, as long as he gets what he wants in the end: his family.
Love and family is such a interesting motivation for a villain, doing horrible evil fucked up things for the ones he loves so passionately.
And making the main villain the FATHER of one of the main heroes???? Imagine the CONFLCIT, the DRAMA if Adrien and Gabriel were allowed to know for real and not in some alternate timeline.
The writers were such cowards when Cat Noir wasnt allowed to be in the final fight against Monarch. (which is an awesome name for a butterfly themed super villain if you ask me) and letting Gabriel WIN??? Redeeming him at the literal last second??? And Adrien wasn't even allowed to know??? And Marinette didnt tell him??? Adrien just has zero agency in his life and its depressing since he was supposed to be one of the main characters
and they called me a weird one for pitting up Gabriel against Belos.
@@dilltamacipher8374and what’s crazy is they treat Adrien more like a Side character despite the fact he’s in the title and is meant to be a main character
As someone who adores villains in general, even I agree that Gabe as a villain sucks. Great video bro.
Thanks. I’ve always preferred villains, too.
@@ACriticalRetrospective Swore you said you’d use superpowers for good in your last livestream when I asked that question. Nevertheless, the darkside has its perks.
@@MGory828 I do like villains more, but if I had the chance to have powers, I’d want to do as much good as I could.
@@ACriticalRetrospective Gotcha
The problem with Gabriel is that they tried way too many tropes with him.
First he was a generic "I'm evil because I'm evil mwhahaha"
Then they actually gave him a backstory...or at least a start of it
Season 3 and 4...are fanfiction
and in season 5 he changed halfway through "Eat your pancakes, son" to "You will marry your ex, because I love money more than you." *Burn the finale.*
I think that they could make Gabriel go into more madness as he cannot understand why Adrien is happy and he just shuts off everyone more and more and becomes obsessive and he doesn't listen to reason until he gets exposed or dies.
The Agreste family is inconsitent as a whole, the time since Emillie died is all over the place, what was Adrien's childhood like, how do they know Tsurugi, why did Gabirel changed his name? Yeah, they're a mess
Exactly 😅 then there’s the fact that there was apparently a funeral for Emilie despite the fact her body is in the basement…making me go ‘How on earth would they do a funeral if she’s physically not present?!’ And the fact in ENGLISH they go ‘she disappeared’ when it’s obvious she’s DEAD and they’re afraid to say it 😅
(I’m aware of how WEIRD mentioning body and basement is in the same sentence 😳)
@@gracekim25 About the funeral, Gabriel could resquest a closed coffin and go like 'Open it, you die" and it's a kids cartoon so I guess they can't really use the word 'dead' but don't worry in my country's dub they also never said that Emillie is dead
@@gracekim25many people have funerals without bodies because they're gone like someone who disappeared so they just don't have a body it's a very normal thing don't worry
@@No-nt3vjoh that part i understand…it’s just in this particular case it’s odd that saying she’s dead is something they’re afraid of saying. Disappeared makes it sound like she left whereas ‘missing’ would be like Amelia Earhart…where they had to assume she died because she was never found 😅….but thank you for at least clarifying….I was mostly confused because in this case we know where Emilie is located so you know 🤷♀️
I have to assume in French they do make it clear everyone believes she’s dead😅
I'll tell you why he wanted Chole as an ally; Astruc wanted to give us a reason why Chole couldn't be redeemed... I know THAT SUCKS
Chloe is wasted potential like everything else in this show.
(Grabs a pen and paper)
‘Dear Buck Ace Cluck’
I am sorry about the backlash you’ve gotten in the 2005 movie, Chicken Little.
In the first half and little bit of the first moments in the seconds, you have shown to be a jerk. Telling Chicken Little to go hide away and that you are embarrassed of him. I can tell where people come from when you did these things. I can take your gratitude for your son both ways when he won the baseball game, either you being genuinely proud or just proud becuase you were shallow. And maybe you can try to encourage your son a bit more. And about that whole ‘You better be ready to listen to your children, even if they have nothing to say’ seemed bad enough of your behalf.
However, throughout the second half, when you didn’t believe Chicken Little the second time, you sounded quite genuine. I mean, unless if I had the right heart, I don’t know if I would listen to my future son about aliens. Next bit, is your apology. It may not have been the time for you to say it, but you apologised to Chicken Little when he pointed out your flaws during the Alien Invasion. You admitted that you were a bad father and stood by Chicken Little’s side until the end. You faced off the aliens and delivered Kirby back to his parents who convinced his dad not to kill you.
And here you are now, learning to be a better father. As ridiculous as your Arc maybe, at least you admitted your wrongdoings at the end of the day. If Chicken Little 2 came out, I believe you would have made great improvements.
_At least you don’t turn into a heartless monster who goes to lengths of terrorism to revive your dead wife while showing worser neglect to your son._ But at least you’ve learned to get better.
-Genre Productions
That was beautiful, and I never thought I’d say that about something Buck Cluck related.
Genre productions takes a deep breath.
*Cut to an oldsy timesy quill on fire*
One of the downfalls of Gabriel as a sympathetic villain is that we don't really get anything on his motivation. Yes, we know he loves his wife and wants her back, but what is she to Gabriel? We don't get any of his real history with her, we don't know how Emilie is percieved by anyone else, we don't get him remenicing on important moments with her, we don't see what their family dynamic was like before Emilie's death, ect. It's just surface level point-blank statements.
I think that’s a trope called “Fridging”, right?
@@ACriticalRetrospective Wouldn't call it that trope, just an underdeveloped 'dead loved one' plot.
@@nobody2996Okay. Thanks for informing me. 😊
@@nobody2996exactly 😅
This show really tried to do “don’t tell Harry” from Spiderman 1 without realizing they forgot to establish any sort of meaningful connection between Gabriel and Marinette. The reason why it works in the movie is because Peter Parker truly cared for both Harry and Norman Osbourne, it would be extremely painful for him to tell the truth about Green Goblin and Norman’s death, thinking it would cause more suffering for his friend.
Marinette should’ve said “dang this guy’s nuts why would I do that?” and tell Adrien anyways after the universe reset 😅 girl has no reason to care that much for the guy who has tortured her and countless others for five seasons.
Exactly 😅
I only really got into the fandom last year, but….people seriously didn’t think Gabe was the villain? I thought it was pretty obvious.
I wished Gabe took a genuine interest in his son like he did in season 5. He lost my sympathies pretty quickly with how horribly he treated Adrien. The only other person he cared about other his wife since day 1 was Natalie. I’d actually argue that he treated her BETTER then Emily since we learn he isn’t respecting her DYING WISH.
I was really hoping for more development for both Gabe and Hawk Moth, I just don’t like what we got for the most part. Like you said, he is written too inconsistently.
i mean i figured it out when i watched when it aired and i was a dumb 8/9 year old, it wasn't a well hid secret but predictable doesn't = bad
Yeah um the ‘signs’ of who he was pretty obvious because APPARENTLY it’s not obvious to children 😅 (or at least that’s the logic Thomas went with 😅🤷♀️)
@@Cinnamonraisin_Bageland that right there proves even Children figured it out quickly. Thomas’ logic was pretty broken 😅
@@gracekim25 yeah it did not hide it that well at all though as a kid i thought i was a genius for figuring it out (no... no i was not)
@@Cinnamonraisin_Bagel I agree. Predictability doesn’t necessarily mean it’s bad…or boring or a reflection of the writer’s intelligence.
I do not approve of Adrien aka Cat Noir abuse. But that home run joke had me giggling a bit! 😆🤭
I laughed my ass off. That’s what I call a good cut/edit.
@@MGory828 Yep! Agreed!😁
Yeah I did like that joke😂
Cant gabriel just akumatize a person in grieving and get a villain that can revive dead people?
Ahh yes but you see, no one in this show is competent save for Felix, Natalie and by a stretch Lila
To be fair him having a romance with his assistant makes sense cause he wanted a mother for Adrian and his assistant fulfilled that rule for a long time
(I don't remember her name that's why I just call her the assistant)
It's Natalie
@@OthandoSimamane-ss1xp thanks
Yeah I used to ship them before seasons 4 and 5 went down
CR: I really get excited when Shadowmoth is about to sent an akuma.
Me: My fellow villains! He appreciates villainy!!!😈🖤🦹♂️
I sure do!
How not to write a villain
By the way, great analysis
Thank you. ☺️
Future writers will probably use Miraculous Ladybug as an example of what not to do.
The voice at the beginning was spot on
AI really has come a long way.
@@ACriticalRetrospectiveCan’t argue there.
True that was epic 0:13
Please give me the link to AI Gabriel Agreste!
Ok that was epic 😂
There are multiple types of villains. I’ll be discussing two of them. "The Psychopath" is the kind of villain who desires power and control without a deeper motive, lacks empathy and has no emotional weaknesses. Then there is "The Sympathetic Villain," this one usually seeks power, control, and revenge, often stemming from a complex backstory involving childhood trauma or betrayal.
The mistake arises when attempting to mix these types, as seen in Hawkmoth/Shadowmoth. He was initially portrayed as a Sympathetic Villain with a tragic motive of resurrecting his deceased wife. Still, he lacks the depth of a sympathetic backstory and emotional vulnerability since we don’t know much about him. Additionally, his actions, such as akumatizing Adrien, his own son, contradict the portrayal of a caring father and weaken the narrative coherence.
Gabriel would have been more compelling if he had been developed as either a fully realised Sympathetic Villain with a fleshed-out backstory and a vulnerability, such as his son Adrien or as a cold, calculating Psychopath without such emotional complexities. But, mixing these archetypes undermines the character's credibility and narrative consistency.
2:15 I honestly want to know what the hype cycle was like back then, when the show wasn’t in a doom cycle.
Those were the golden days. I remember when Rena Rouge and Queen Bee were first revealed.
Those days were so fun, i remember the fanbase getting pissed off because Luka and Kagami were announced as future love interests
@@Cinnamonraisin_Bagel I remember that! Everyone HATED Luka and Kagami at first.
@@ACriticalRetrospective Yeah i remember young me getting ready to hate them, and then they ended up being somehow my favourite characters in like season 4 and early season 5 (until Luka gets shipped off and Kagami got forced with felix)
@@Cinnamonraisin_Bagel Look how that turned out. They broke up after one episode.
That moment of Garbiel giving up was the moment that the show peaked for me because it showed that he wasn't just *THE* villain. He wasn't just the designated evil adult getting in the way of the super hero kids. That moment showed us how human Gabriel is and how HURT and LONELY he is as well and Natalie embracing him was the topper; you WANT those two to move on. Gabriel misses Emily but he's destroying his own life trying to bring her back. Natalie cares for him and it's just too clear that in the end, they needed each other. It was two adults in a kids' show allowed to be seen as human, allowed to have their pain but also for a fleeting moment a possible chance of hope of the two getting together and not just for a ship, but to show Gabriel moving on and starting a new family and Natalie finally allowing herself to break free from her serious, near robotic act to show compassion and love, ESPECIALLY when Garbiel is nearly broken when he sees Natalie weakened from her use of the Peacock Miraculous. You can tell by his panic that he's reliving the moments Emily started to fade away and weaken and there was nothing he could do. For a man to go through that TWICE in such a short time would be devastating.
*BUT I GUESS THAT DOESN'T MATTER! WHOMP WHOOOOMP!*
The whole thing with Gabriel and Natalie comes off to mean that Gabriel was FINALLY going to move on and accept that Emily has passed away which is hard but it would show him moving on. Take into consideration that his SON has accepted that his mom is gone and is currently worried about his father. That should show you that what Gabriel is doing isn't healthy not just for his family but for himself. Natalie, in season 2, served as someone that could have helped him move on because she loves him too but season 3 just...shits all over that by having Natalie do nothing but faint despite Gabriel knowing and TELLING HER COUNTLESS TIMES how dangerous the Peacock Miraculous is due to it being broken so if anything, *THIS* should be one of the wake up calls for Gabriel to stop with what he's doing and heeeey, if they wanted their happy enough they could have kept Fu so he could find a way to fix the damn thing and for a finale moment, Gabriel could be Betterfly in THIS timeline and Natalie could properly use the Peacock in it's good form.
And honestly, the whole thing with Gabriel's....WISH....is actually disturbing in a way because this man was NEVER allowed to get on with his life so he essentially wishes his life away to be with his wife and leave his son *AN ORPHAN*. And the whole point for Gabriel at the start was to bring Emily back *FOR* Adrian, bringing in the idea that Gabriel didn't have faith in himself as a parent to be able to connect with his son ALONE. Gabriel, for all his power, is someone who needs companionship but he missed the chances he had for it right in front of him whether it be Adrian himself or Natalie, both being people who cared about him. But to just have the whole thing turn into this lie to make Adrian 'not feel so bad' is actually really disgusting and not because of the show itself but just...the implications of it.
I hated what they did with Chloe for how much of a massive waste of SEVEN YEARS it was only to bitch slap us back into season one but worse but the whole Gabriel thing reminds me of the Gen: Lock storyline where one of the main characters actually ends her life but the writers turn her death into a 'positive' by making her 'digital goddess' form a 'superior' form from her human form as it more or less tells people that yes! End your life because you'll get isekai'ed into a better world and form and that's EXACTLY what they did with Gabriel. He didn't 'sacrifice' himself for the good of anyone. He seriously just ended his life on an OBSESSION without saying goodbye to his son and wrote a timeline where he's praised for it. It's not at all a heroic or sympathetic move nor is it one that should at all be glorified or one that Mari fed into by making Adrian think that it was noble, especially since Adrian now sees what his father did(n't do) as something to live up for but he can never be so that's another thing that Adrian is now guilted with.
BRUH. They wrote Gabriel k(****) himself and had it end on a romantic lovey-dovey moment where Mari LIES and Adrian goes "I CAN NEVER LIVE UP TO THAT!' even though there is nothing to live up to because what Gabriel did was crazy and destructive and now Adrian is living with a false narrative in his head that will make his self-esteem worse because he sees it as a level he can never reach.
......
WHAT....the absolute hell?!
Can we just pretend that Season 2 was the final season? Even if it would mean ending on a cliffhanger it would avoid the broken mess that we got....
I prefer the way Gabriel was handled in the movie as he seemed to maintain his characters sympathetic nature without making me more emotional depraved than how he was in Season 5 as he was treated in the movie as a Human Being rather than a monstrous villain he became in the 5th season. The staircase scene from the movie bests proof my opinion by Gabriel trying to talk to Adrain, only for him to turn him down. Here, the roles are reversed in which Gabriel notices something is wrong with Adrain, causing him to worry and Adrain denouncing him stating “I lost my dad a long time ago.” Or something like that. Which makes it the opposite for how the show portrays it by having Adrain trying to talk to Gabriel about what’s on his mind, only for Gabriel to say something like “I’m busy, get to the point” or “I don’t care” or interrupting Adrain med-sentence. I don’t want to write to much else here, but I think I’ve made my case.
Agreed! They fumbled really hard with Gabriel. Gabriel should have chosen Lila and the writers have the nerve to redeem him after all the terrible things he’s done. Ladybug should have kicked his butt instead of forgiving him. He does not deserve redemption.
Tbh I feel like the change in Gabriel's character between season 2 and 3 actually works in a way, when you view it as a corruption arc. Like think about it. In the first 2 seasons, we see the sympathetic side of Gabriel. We see him care about the people around him, like Adrien and Nathalie, we see him have a bit of depth, and we're shown that he's only doing this because he wants his wife back, not just for himself, but so Adrien can have his mother back as well. That didn't mean he was a good father, he still had plenty of moments in the first two seasons where when you think about it, he just sucked. But he still cared, even if it was in a misguided way.
However, the more he used the miraculous, the longer he stayed as Hawkmoth, the more desperate he became. While he may have started out his villainy with better intentions, the frustration, constant failure, and power he held started to get to them. It's like the saying, "The road to hell is paved with good intentions." I personally see the style queen arc in season 2 as the "point of no return" for Gabriel. In those episodes, he had the chance to walk away from it all. He realized how much his actions were affecting Adrien, and for a moment, he put it all behind and decided that maybe he could be happy without Emilie. He tried moving on, and it could have stayed that way. But then when the opportunity came, he went right back to being Hawkmoth, instead of being there for Adrien. In the end, he chose Emilie and the possibility of her coming back over his own son who was still alive. Once he made this decision, there was no going back, because he made his choice.
You'll notice that all the sympathetic moments between Gabriel and Adrien in season 2 happen BEFORE these 2 episodes (as far as I remember at least). In the second half of the season, we don't see Gabriel caring all that much for Adrien, and, well, then season 3 happens. There we see Gabriel being HORRIBLE to Adrien, especially in Chat Blanc, and I believe that it's because at that point, Gabriel has become detached from everyone in his life, including his own son. Because why does he matter? When he gets the miraculouses, he will create a new universe, and none of this will have mattered because they'll be happy again.
Of course, this is speculation. I don't know if that's what the writers were going for, especially considering the change of writers between the seasons, but I personally really like the idea of Gabriel slowly descending into madness the longer he commits to villainy. It's a cautionary tale of how much grief can change you for the worse if you let it control your life, and it's a good contrast to Adrien, who moved on from the loss and found happiness.
Though I agree, season 5 was absolutely ATROCIOUS and it mostly killed my love for the show 💀
Interesting perspective. Not flawless, but very interesting.
Wow, you managed to transfer important message about Ai art and at the same time support a lot of people! It's honestly amazing and wholesome.
Sometimes it's really hard and you wonder "does this even matter?" and want to get art that you want with Ai shortcut instead of drawing it by yourself or commissioning another artist; but then you remember that despite Ai is an easy path, it won't satisfy you, just corrupt your original idea. And then you find someone who struggles as much as you or support from another artist and you're filled with determination to keep going again!
Sorry for my bad English and for so many words, it's just that this short made me so emotional for some reason. I wish good luck and positive feedback for artists with any skill, beginner or not. The ability to create something special for you by art is truly magnificent✨
I didn't even think about it that way. Nonetheless, I'm glad that the skit moved you. It showcases to me that you're very perceptive to have seen something so meaningful there.
so if you don't have the skill or talent necessary to create your own art, and either can't afford to pay for commissions or can't find anyone willing to take commissions, you should just suck it up and deal with it?
My theory to his wildly shifting personality is for when he was akumatized, he was putting on a show to make hawkmoth more evil, so him attacking Adrian can let them see his strength, as for season 5, the cataclysm is probably effecting his mind in some way
thank you! I never understtood why gabe was so fixated on forcing chloe to side with him...like lila is already requited and chloe already accidentally was causing akumas anyway.....unless his goal was to saboatge chloe' redemption becuase he needed her to keep causing kids to be upset since she is a majour source for most of his akumas.
It’s still weird that he ends up not caring about his son anymore given his actual motivations 🤔 I’m wondering if they forgot his goals…. Um kinda wish they had it that the Miraculous gradually made him go mad😅 (making the persona real)
Another frustrating thing about the show writing is how they didn’t do enough to develop Emilie😅 since it’s only near the end we HEAR her speak… they took too long to do anything
I think whats more frusterating is...would she really have been bad if she wanted to live? like arguable the villians didn't actually know the price for the wish for a majority of the show because they didnt have a guardian to tell them like mari did..tey had a not translated version of the book and then when they had a translated version it doesn;t mean they completely understand how it worked because no one would assume destroying everything and remaking everything where that scenerio exists. even if they thought there was a price why wouldnt they think they could find some way around it? its not like creatinga sentibeing had a issue...the issue was the peacock was broken.
the most they got for emilie was how Gabe seemed to be proud and nostalgic when chat roasted his ass in simon says. and how we can assume that the mom has a personality similar to adrien. personally I would have perfered if emilie just...was a bit reckless in how she used the miraculous similar to how adrien jumped at using the chat miraculous his first day. maybe the flaw is not realizing or ignoring the signs she'd be in danger and doing in anyone not realizing the affects on her loves ones.
so them trying to pull the she left a messgae to stop gabe felt WEIRD when arguably the villians had no idea the cost of the wish that early on in the show.
what if gabe;s plan had always been to take her place is my question. how did thye make her MORE boring when having her say she didn't approve of those type of plans?
@@clarisacalderon9555that too 😅 continuity is broken 😶
@@gracekim25 I think its even weirder because the show clearly is formulaic. it relies on patterns and the few differences stand out because of the formula. and it also relies of parallels and contrasts between characters to create a bit more extra depth (or at least implied).yet the videos in the show don't build much on that and raises more questions...like why have the videos only shown now? when she went 'missing' months before hawkmoth appeared and the hawkmoth plan went into affect?
@@clarisacalderon9555exactly 😅
I wish it wasn't going back and forth in whether or not Gabriel really ever loved his son enough to protect him/not hurt him (akumatize him). It would've been interesting thing though had they did the Tomeo route in Sailor Moon. I know that's what Astruc was trying to be like, but like he created a disaster of a show all because he was trying to be like Sailor Moon.
Okay, so my overall interpretation as a writer…
I agree that either as a coping product or as a necessity to corrupt and make akuma, Gabriel unpersons himself when he takes on his villain persona. You can see this narratively in the final season as he seems to be actively split down the middle of his personality. He is trying to be involved in Adrian’s life properly for the first time, but he is so powerful and so close to his goal that Monarch seeps even into his personal relationships.
His time is running low, he is so close to his goal, and if he can just get those miraculous so he can remake the world.
And we know the power is derailing his ability to think when Nathile points out that if he just focused on dropping the drive in the past he could get everything he is after. Hell, a fun concept to play with would be a rewrite where Gabriel does exactly that, gets everything he wants, and tries to leave the villain life behind but the lack of absolute power and control drives him to lapse back into Hawkmoth.
His final redemption in my mind is the very last of his humanity forcing itself past his descent to try and make all of his evil mean something to the people he cares about. That’s why he dies. He could have survived I’m sure, but it symbolizes his inability and unwillingness to be honest with himself or others about what he had done.
The man was so twisted by the loss in his past that not only did he neglect his son for years but he was disconnected from the world around him.
And as for the Kagami thing, that wasn’t Gabriel. That was Kagami’s mom insisting on it as marrying into influence, power, and class is very important in Japanese Zaibatsu(which it’s implied Kagami’s mom is one of those kinds of situations)
So to keep her cooperation with the rings and her silence about his plans he had to force Adrian into that. It was “for the greater good” or so he disconnectedly lied to himself.
And yet, despite all these great narrative beats for a kids show, the man botched Chloe’s characterization so badly that he had to go really hard into making clear to the audience how she is just too evil and it still didn’t work.
He should have just accepted that happy accident and had Lila take the same functional role Chloe did instead of doing the half sister twin gambit.
Mmm it’s a cool way to look at it. If only if that had been their intention 😢
I’m leaving multiple comments. Today is a different day.
The Home Run at the start of “Gabe in SS3” made me laugh my ass off!
That’s really great to hear.
That AI voice at the beginning was just...priceless XD it was quite accurate too and quite hilarious.
I'm really glad you liked it.
Hawk moth looks like spy from tf2
11:50 For Gabriel's actions, isn't he also trying to hide he's Hawkmoth by making it so he 'becomes' akumatized in a situation where he would be. Adrien is the source of the 'conflict' and early Akumas act very irrationally with the source of their conflicts. It works well if you think Gabriel is trying to hide his identity, that's his main reason for the plot. Being protective over Adrien when an Akuma wouldn't do that in the specific situation would clue them in.
Personally I think he would have made for a better villain if they didn't reveal his secret to the viewers immediately.
As well as having him look completely different, then the shock would have been BIGGER.
30:08
Interesting choice of backing music for this final bit, Playing Blumiere and Timpani’s theme from SPM is really ironic given Blumiere is quite literally everything Gabriel should have been IMO. He has a cool design, and actually gets to have fun and interesting dynamics with his fellow villains. (Like, Nastasia is literally Natalie. Business woman subordinate who acts out of love and devotion to her boss, but her boss is down bad for a dead lady instead)
Driven to drastic action by the loss of his true love, with small bits of humanity shown throughout the story, only for the people he loves to help him out of it, yet he still deals with the consequences and dies alongside his true love.
They literally both die in the same way too, except Blumieres death was actually well done, and incredibly thematically relevant. Bro actually sacrificed himself, unlike Gabriel who was selfish until the bitter end, and manipulated a kid in his final breath.
TLDR Super Paper Mario solos
I didn’t think anyone would recognise that music! I’m glad to find someone else who loves Super Paper Mario. The story in that game is unbelievably amazing.
random but i just found ur channel like 2 days ago and ive binge watched almost all of it! nowadays i find hard finding creators that resonate with me and that i like their content enough to suscribe instead of just quick background noise videos, so i was pleasantly surprised with how much i enjoyed your videos! love the energy, the silly editing and analisis :] overall good stuff, it seems that u just always deliver and im here for it!
Thanks! That’s very motivating for me. I always want to make people happy with my videos so I guess I’m doing my job. 😊
@A critical Retrospective, I love your ideas concerning Gabriel's grief and how he has been processing it, it has given me a lot of ideas moving forward. Also, I wanted to thank you for a fic idea I ended up getting while watching the first part of your video, so Thanks!
You’re welcome. ☺️
Thank You for making this video. I actually enjoyed it. By far my favorite video from your channel 😁😊
Thanks so much! I'm glad that my videos are seemingly ascending in quality. That's what I'm aiming for.
@@ACriticalRetrospective
Despite how awful he was written, Miraculous Ladybug 🐞 won't be the same without Gabriel Agreste. The one good thing I think he did was carry the show for 8 years.
Your idea that Gabriel acts so evil as Hawkmoth because he doesnt want to acknowledge his loss is honestly more sympathetic than whatever MLB writers ever did.
Also as for why Collector Gabriel "attacked" Adrien... I do believe that even if he akumatized himself, Gabriel was still affected by the whole process. As he is obsessed with hoarding/collecting everything he sees, plus he felt «wrath of a father» or something, keyword being WRATH towards Adrien for loosing something important (le book), so obviously akuma is enabling Collector's anger towards Adrien even if Gabriel may not want to physically capture/hurt Adrien (well, in season 2 at least)
That might explain things. Also, I’m glad you liked my idea! ☺️
0:00:
You did not make an AI voice of Gabriel for a skit? I’m not even a minute in, and I’m already commenting. What a great start!
Thanks! That AI voice took forever.
@@ACriticalRetrospective Moistcritikal: AI!!!
@@MGory828 I’ve seen that video. It was really funny how he jumpscares us.
@@ACriticalRetrospective And that’s a good example of good referencing.
@@ACriticalRetrospective”you disgust me, you’re weakness is pathetic.”
-penguinz0
Agreed, peak Gabriel is in Season 2. And Gorizilla was my favorite episode, that was subsequently ruined with the semi confirmation of the sentimonster theory making him look like a moron who forgot he could control his son. The movie did kinda fix the evil supervillain personality making him semi possessed to really not think about his heartbreak and loneliness, which was nice.
Love the vid can’t wait for the live stream ❤
I'll see you there!
About the collector in season 2: Hawk Moths ability to give someone a super power is, in my humble opinion, that it needs to be based on an emotion or desire that someone has. And that emotion or desire gets amplified beyond controll, so although Hawk Moth willingly akumatized himself he coulf nlt controll his overprotective desire and went to adrien to "protect" him in his collection
The thing is. Gabriel is just so lame written hes a mix of many animated villains, but like in worse hes an comedic and redeemable villain like Heinz Doofenshmirtz yet he nearly killed his son and nearly caused the end of the world. And hes not funny that dance was... Never again. Atleast doofenshmirtz didn't caused to much harm and was still a great father to Vanessa even though he had it worse
hes also broken but heres the problem he began to be evil when his wife died after that he became such a dick and just awful. Like he didn't got betrayed or anything, his wife died. He cant accept life and death. That would be a great premise that Gab is accepting death and is letting go but no hes not... Also hes an irredeemable monster like idk Frollo and Scar well here's the other problem, he got an redemption arc afyer all he did! You need to make it sense you can't hive that dude a redemption arc and Chloé still being evil.
Hes an comedic villain but is not funny more like cringe, hes not broken hes a dude that cant accept death, and hes not irredeemable cause he got an redemption arc. Seriously one of the worst villains ever. Even the chameleon and King Magnifico is better than Gabriel/Hawk Moth/Scarlet Moth/Shadow Moth/Monarch
Idk, Gabriel slowly losing his mind as soon as he gets the Miraculous makes sense because Marionette literally says that wielding too many Miraculous can mess with your head. And he decided to wield, ALL of them. He's very much just stiffly holding himself together until he just loses his shit. It's a mask, a facade, you can see his personality shift as his normal clothing gets whiter and whiter, and his Villain look gets more and more deranged.
One thing that could work is if Adrien finds out himself next season that his father was hawkmoth and then questions Marinette on why she lied about him being a “hero.” Lila could also spill the beans to Adrien as well instead of him finding out himself. But the only thing is if it will even matter since we are moving onto a new ark but I think it would be interesting to see how he would cope with that information.
I've never seen this show, I don't really care to start, and yet here I am. Dunno why. I guess I just like the way you make videos, lol.
That’s really flattering. 😁
really good analysis! i've been trying to rewrite Gabriel's character for my Miraculous AU, and this is helping a lot, so thanks :D
if anyone wants to read my ideas for this rewrite (and the ending), here they are lol
i'll be using a lot of things from the shows original concept/PV for this. that's why character names are different and such
-Hawkmoth will be much more of a mysterious villain, and will barely get any appearances. when we ever DO get to see him, he will mostly be a silhouette. maybe his eyes will showing a bit or something.
-my version of Gabriel is almost never around, since he's busy planning attacks and strategies in a faraway blimp (like in the original). this keeps Felix guessing about what his father is up to, and it could keep the audience guessing as well. i feel like this also makes him more of a mysterious character.
-the only signs of Hawkmoth's existence will be his Akumas. Ladybug and Chat Noir have no idea about Hawkmoth since, like stated earlier, he's in a faraway blimp and nobody knows where the Akumas are coming from. Ladybug and Chat will have to find clues that lead to Hawkmoth's existence and whereabouts.
-during Ladybug and Chat Noir's final battle, we get to see Hawkmoth in all his glory for the first time. since Chat looks so insanely different from his civilian form, Felix, Hawkmoth has no idea he's up against his own son - the one he aims to protect the most.
-Chat and Ladybug's masks are torn off due to a powerful attack, and they see each others true identities for the first time. Hawkmoth realises that Chat Noir is Felix, and is absolutely devastated as he also reveals that he is Gabriel. Felix and Marinette are horrified at the revelation.
-seriously wounded, Gabriel passes out from blood loss. Felix and Marinette rush him to the hospital. a few weeks pass, and Gabriel has died. the butterfly miraculous will now go on to someone else, since in my rewrite the miraculous can only go on to someone else after the holder has died.
if anybody has any critiques or suggestions, feel free to put them in the replies. and thanks for reading this all the way through :P
I really like this idea! It reminded me a lot of Callimara's rewrite. The idea of Hawk Moth being a mysterious, unseen, looming threat across the season is such a good idea.
@@ACriticalRetrospective thank you!
Late again, but great retrospective as always.
Question, how many times do you watch the show for these retrospectives and does all the bad writing mess with you a bit, or does the better writing balance it out?
I watch the episodes rather regularly, just for fun. The bad writing is frustrating, but it doesn't bother me as much as I would've thought. I guess I just enjoy the episode I'm watching without thinking too much. Sometimes, I do get frustrated while watching, eg during the Season 5 Finale, but it's not a common occurrence.
@@ACriticalRetrospective Fair enough dude, congrats on 2.1k, you'll get to 3k In no time.
@@theeeveelutionist7245 Thank you! 😁
29:28
What you're saying is possibly true because I see it on the show I like to watch RWBY where it has four riders who are writing the show in the show has been going on for about nine
seasons now and I've noticed that there's always character inconsistency when you have different writers work on different episodes with how the characters and even the environment acts with the the characters in how they behave
when you have different writers write different episodes it's like these writers are all sitting at the same table but they're not communicating with each other for an example I can think of back in season 8 of the show where they had it where at the
beginning one group of the characters were all fighting with each other and then by episode I want to say 8 or 9:00 they're acting like they were best friends or something like that they didn't have that fight
the same happened in season 6 where one character was mad at her friend because she felt like she abandoned her and she was upset
with her still but a few episodes later when they decide to go disable a communications Tower they were acting like they were in love and giving each other bedroom eyes and stuff and I was like why are they all of a sudden and love how did they resolve
their problem it's like there's no consistency amongst the writers and everything just gets thrown around
And they did that with Gabriel which really sucks because I admit I like Gabriel and Natalie more than I like to marinade and Adrian their story was way more interesting and I'm upset we haven't really got to see it
I don't know I feel like when it came to Gabriel's in the beginning they had two different people doing his writing
And when we got the season 3 through 5 they had another person writing for Gabriel I feel like he had really good moments is season 4 and 5 I'm upset that we won't be getting to see Gabriel again especially after his writing did get good except for towards the end of season 5 where it just seemed random because of Gabriel and kagami's mom really wanted them to stay together because they were both sentient beings they should have brought that something like that up in season 3 but I'm under the inclination that the writer saw how popular the city Adrian theory was and they just added it to the show I don't think it was originally a part of their plan or if it was they were going to reveal it in a different way but they realized they should have maybe do something with it and they did that whole Adrian's going to marry kagame thing out of nowhere because of that was going to be the case kagame should have been a character who's been here since season 1
where are you have it where girls who are in love with adriene but Adrian's already engaged to kagmai
But I really just think these writers at certain points were just writing whatever they thought was fun and then when they noticed that their fan base was getting older they want to take things a bit more seriously and that's why they tried to do what they did with this show
And I know this might happen one day but I hope that someday if somebody decides to do a reboot of miraculous ladybug they take the good plot points from the show and use those and like I said if they're going to have it where Adrianna kagame are going to be together just have it where they're together from the beginning and have it where maybe they do like each other and think their relationship could work maybe have it where Gabriel let's Adrian go out of kamima involved and vice versa with her mom but still have it when Adrian becomes cat noir he obtains more freedom than he thought he ever could I still think it's also stupid that Gabriel never learned that Adrian was cat noir
and I know they're probably going to do something in season 6 where Adrian learns that Gabriel was hawk moths or maybe at season 7 and he learns that Marinette and ladybug lied to him but I don't know I still wish we could explore More Gabriel than that the writers could have done better 😂
They really screwed up in Season 5, didn't they? 😂 Thomas apparently said that if Adrien finds out, Cat Blanc will happen (which is simply not true, because he's basically implying that Adrien hasn't had any development for 2 seasons, and he definitely HAS had development.) Istg Thomas triggers my anger issues. 💀 Also, why did he make Gabe a sympathetic villain at the end of season 5??? Is this the same man who yeets his son to the other side of Paris? 😭 Terrible way to end his arc... 😒
Very Good Video Sir,
Thanks. 😊
I still can’t get over how ugly his design is, with that goofy-ahh bondage mask and his citizen design is a Christmas themed candy cane suit in those hallmark Christmas movies for a fashion designer when it ain’t even December, hell his concept art is so much better, if you look it up, his villain design and citizen design is much better which gives a harder guess to find who is hawkmoth, but his personality…yeah no I seen better rewrites and redesigns better then this, this makes me concerned for Lila who now wields the moth miraculous and now that Gabriel is dead, let’s hope it’s not gonna be Gabriel 2.0.
Great video my dude! Whats the music at around 7 minutes?
Pokemon Black and White - Emotion Music
Marinette is a better villain than Gabriel, let that sink in!
The hero is a better villain than the actual antagonist.
personally I weirdly hope that the twist is mari is actually wrong for how she handled in the situation..like...mari missed that chloe IS still redeemable and her bias got in the way as mari didnt REALLY reach out to chloe as WE the audience knows chloe;s spiral had been about chloe falling for gabe's scheme which CORNERED chloe into the fall using emotional manipulation and a set up using pollen and ehr parents as hostages initially. or how mari having the habit of thinking she knows best so keeping info from adrien and chat and others....similar to how in emphereal mari wasn't appozed to using chat;s feelings to get him to give her his identity. then resevese time so chat has no idea he gave her the info an luka could give t=it to suhan..where she refused to just talk to him properly like luka suggested because chat might refused to give his identity then...and how her own emotions got in the way when she found out his identity where she NEVERE owned up to lying or how luka gave suhan the identity anyway to adrien in that alternate timeline which feels REALLY similar tl how gabe was willing to get adrien to model for that bad for the enviroment ad that he knew adrien wouldnt approve of by lying to adrien/omitting what it was for because he knew adrien wouldn't agree if he knew.
I REALLY hope what ends up happening is Adrien sacrifices himself to bring back gabe and the mom and mari has to face...does she let him go like he wanted?...or does she go against what he wants because SHE loves him?...and how its not so easy to agree to not do the bad thing when its YOUR loves ones on the line.
how she should have kept gabe from the wish entirely still or at least own up he's still a bad guy.
Gabeis WAY more interesting whe you realize the parallels mari has with him..but the show also never really acknowledges how strong those parallels are when formost of the show they act like gabe is just bad and mari just just good while SHOWING us the parallels that never get acknowledged
@@clarisacalderon9555
You are too hopeful, my friend.
Writers don't care, good ideas always go to waste. Like Gabriel sacrificing himself to bring back his wife... the price should have been Adrien, not Gabriel himself, imagine how his wife would react to Adrien being sacrificed to bring her back, or how guilty Gabriel would feel for unknowingly sacrificing his son.... Then and only then should he have sacrificed his life to bring back Adrien. Real good chance to show self disgust at what he has become and an act that would actually count as a step to redemption.
@@jeckjeck3119 ooooh thats a nice spicy scenerio...though to be fair that could potentially still happen if adrien finds out the truth and uses the wish to bring back his mom and dad.
personally I feel like if they really wanted to redeem gabe or at least help him...they should have topped him from doing the wish but ask the guardians to help save the mom without the wish being neccasary. thematically pointing out that a way to save his wife could have been more available if he had been honest with his motives or asked for help.
Or I think a benfit to gabe trading himself first is I don't think Nathalie would have expected it. on one hand i want gabe punished and for him to reflect and adrien being the unintended sacrifice would be a easy way to deal with that...but I actually kind of want to see nathalie's face if she finds out gabe was the sacrifice and what her enabling the greiving man put that same man at risk....Gabe is worse but I feel like the fandom gives nathalie a little too much slack considering she seemed almost more ruthless at points and she encouraged gabe to go back to being hawkmoth when he tried to stop himself a before. or imagine if nathalie's plan had been to be the sacrifice without telling gabe...only for gabe to do a uno reverse card.
though if both gabe or nathalie were trying to sacrifce themselves only for adrien to then be the real target as a trade would have been a interesting twist as well.
...thou in another light gabe only learning when adrien being sacrificed I think wouldn't show his ability to be redeemed unless it affects him personally....though it would make it clear he has way less control than he likes to pretend he does which could directly touch on his biggest flaw.
@@clarisacalderon9555
My take was more on don't rely on the wishes, as the show implied so many times, there must be some terrible price. Gabriel (or anyone else) could have easily exchanged the life of someone else the world wouldn't miss (war kriminals, canibals, whoever made reality TV, etc). The price should be more than that.
@@jeckjeck3119 so someone who matters to the person who is making the wish? like how it was implied that it markov used the wish to become human that max would then become a robot? even if makov had tried to make the sacrifice someone else?
11:42
I'd say he didn't hesitate on doing so because the Collector's power isn't harmful, and with being Hawk Moth himself he could just turn off his powers and reverse what he did
(and with the idea that Hawk Moth can give eny power he wants, It wouldn't be crazy to think the collector had an ability to free stuff from his book, just in case)
Wow… Clearly I’ve been living in a miraculous bubble since season 2 ended because I never stopped enjoying the show. Even after finishing season 5, I still love it. I’m surprised to hear that the community hates it. Can’t wait to find out why.
The last "Canonical" episode I saw was the Story-Collector, back in Middle school.
I was introduced to the show by a friend that loved everything French, and thought it was the peak of French Kids television. This was before season three dropped, and when Season two only had seven episodes.
Then thhnigs happened with me and my family, and a little bit later Covid happened. My family dropped our Netflix subscription.
I was watching this in conjuction with the Disney TV show Elena of Avalor, and the Lion Guard.
I honestly believe, and still to this day, that I was experiencing the peak of Kids TV, in the USA.
But, then family and plagues got in the way, and I couldnt be a 15-year old anymore. I had to act like a 24-year old.
In many ways, then and now, I identified with Adrien Agreste, minus the superpowers. I would take any chance to get away from my [conflicting] parents. And, I saw hawkmoth as a personal reflection of them.
Then, Thomas made Gabriel sadistic. My parents may have been [conflictive], but they never became that cruel and sadistic. At least, not until many years later.
I think Thomas and the other writers botched how [conflictive] parents (father figures specifically), are portrayed in their show.
Thomas didnt make Gabriel a serious antagonist to root against or for. He was just a sadistic pile of meh.
And for that reason, I personally consider Season 3 and everything after non-canonical. 😑
I remember the only thing I really liked about miraculous was watching the villains transform when that butterfly thing lands on them. Then watching the villains themselves do wacky things.
Miraculous and RWBY have a lot in common... mostly how inconsistent they are and the use of 3D animation. But I do indeed like Gabriel. He was an amazing character with potential to be either irredeemable or goofy. The problem is that they seemed to not know where to go with him, especially regarding his son. The only thing they kept going was that he loved his wife no matter what and was obsessed with being with her.
Not sure about that comparison since RWBY has a more cohesive lore than Miraculous, mate 😅
I honestly just assumed that after Thomas "rewrote" for S2 -> S3, after coming back, the writers just thought it was a lost cause to try and write anything generally "good" and just went with whatever idea that idiot wants to go with.
That's my head canon anyway 😂
I feel so betrayed for Adrien I swear-
11:19 Welll... Technically, he _was_ akumatized. We've seen akumatized people attack their loved ones frequently.
I guess, but I was wondering why he did that despite being completely aware of his actions. Most akumatized villains don’t know what they did once defeated as they weren’t willingly akumatized, you know?
On today's episode of "the hell's going on in miraculous ladybug?"😭
The only thing I liked even a bit is that Gabriel got a wish, not a good wish but at least we got to see how it works. I do wish that the wish was different even if it ended this way I still wish it was different like the system of the wish or the wish altogether.
I’m a bit unsure about what Gabriel even wished for.
28:19 Droopy Guy: He's Histories Greatest Monster!
I figure Gabriel didn’t want Lila is because she’s headstrong and it’s clear she has her own plans, which could contradict his. Also it’s probably creepy to him that there’s a girl trying to get with his son. Plus he rather Adrien partners with Kagami. But at the same time, wouldn’t he see Chloe is a loose cannon?
I agree Gabriel's development is contreversial.
Didnt see any comments about it but im glad someone else agrees that shadow moths akumatization theme is the best
I’m glad we agree on this very niche thing. 😁
So, considering the hint of a new villain, (from shadybug and clawnoir) do you think if they do a season 6 (i've heard some rumors) they might explore that. I mean it could be through that alternate version of Gaberiel that Adrien learns the truth
I really hope so, Lila doesn’t have enough importance to be the new main villain.
Will you review the bond betwen poppy holly and val from trolls trollstopia
While not shown properly in the show, I do believe his sudden change of his feelings towards his son is because it is due to his own madness. Funny wtf moment but maybe it's due to him forgetting why and who he is doing it for. Knowing that is is much closer and starts to internally panic and rush things.
Comparing to other antagonist that did Hawk Moth's goals faster and better, it might be due to Hawk Moth only focusing the "smaller picture" and not multiple things at once. Or Hawk Moth rather do things completely in the shadows by his own power, while ones like Felix or Lyla do thing by their "natural talent".
Couple of thoughts I had during the video.
1. Season 2 Gabe was peak. As for Collector I think it was just a Cover for Ladybug and Cat Noir to think he was controlled by Hawkmoth, because as of Season 2 no one could resist Hawkmoth to be fair. Same for the "Lila" inconsistencies as civilian Gabe. Sending Kagami though it's like a Chloe situation and Gabe don't know how to use Akumatisation prompting people ?
2. It's just speculation but Gabriel relying on Chloe in season 3 may be because Chloe being chosen by Ladybug and a public hero and stuff, so it would affect public opinion and cause Ladybug to be less reliant on other heroes or something.
3. I agree season 4 had good ost. In French, Shadowmoth is called Papillombre (Papillon which means butterfly and ombre which means shadow, so still no peacock but a more clever name imo, could be Paonpillombre and incorporate the name but it would be silly ngl.
4. Not using amoks was probably a budget decision imo. But in universe yeah it's weird, it still allowed him to make megakuma easier right ? Because in season 3 it really took him some energy to do it with just the Butterfly. And the peacock part of its suit was cool imo 😂
4 bis. Its usage of it in Gabriel Agreste, Optigami and Sentibubbler was cool not gonna lie
5. Monarch transferring Miraculous powers was cool, and allowed him to akumatise and give powers at the same time.
6. I like interpreting Gabriel as becoming crazy because of using multiple miraculous, which would explain why he was stupid in evolution.
7. I wish Adrien would learn Monarch was his father. But I like him winning, (just not like venom on a detransformed Marienette) it was really nice. I hopes the redemption was a result of the wish and Marinette and Adrien were the only one that remember...
8. If Emily wakes up and see Gabe flirting with Natalie would probably be "let's start a polygamous relationship" or something regarding Natalie
It was just a headcanon that could explain things. But it's so far fetched 😂 I agree that writers fumbled it. Miraculous is great concept but bad execution 2010s-2020s colourised
5:27 As shown in your slide show they PLAYED with the fact Gabriel and Hawkmoth were one and the same, and it lead to decent episodes with great concepts.
Gabriel, and Miraculous Ladybug overall, would have benefited from the writers introducing non-Miraculous villains (and heroes) during season 2. Instead of limiting everything non-Miraculous to the Specials, which never have any impact on the show itself.
It would given Gabriel a break from being the villain every single episode, stopping him from becoming so stale after doing what is basically the same song and dance for five seasons, with the heroes having to come up with different ways to defeat different villains. There could be different dynamics, from sort of friendly to hostile depending on the villain. There could be team-ups between sides where Gabriel either teams up with another villain, or he's forced to team up with the heroes to defeat a common enemy (which is one of my favourite tropes). There could be a villain that serves as a dark-mirror to Gabriel, forcing him to contend with what he's become and how far he's going for the life of one person, even if that person's his wife. There could be a villain who also wants to collect the Miraculous, putting them at direct odds with Gabriel. If the writers want Gabriel to remain sympathetic, another villain could be the one to commit the more horrible acts instead of him. Gabriel would be unable to control the other villains, meaning he can't have complete control over the damage done and the risks to Adrien (and himself). Etc.
I think Miraculous Ladybug is the only show I've seen that has such a large selection of heroes, all for a single villain.
or at the very least they could point out the reason gabe and nathalie seem to lax with doing worst stuff is becuase they know all the damage gets revsersed if they lose or if they win.
@@clarisacalderon9555 Honestly, the idea of both sides of the conflict having the power to basically negate all the physicial concequences of their battle could be such a facinating subject to explore in how easily it could play into a villain being unable to comprehend the concequences of their actions. "It's like a game, really. Win or lose, it doesn't matter what I've done, so long as I get to the end."
@@nobody2996 honestly that why i think the new york special felt like it had impact. it was the FIRST time that the damage was permanent. I feel like objectively that gabe SHOULD have kept the sentimonster going til ladybug and chat came back so they could fix the damage but it also made sense that once they weren't there that to minimize damage from getting too out of hand they called the monsters off...
but it was also where I became more convinced that Gabe was suffering some side effects from using his miraculous because his logic wasn't very sound in that special and it made no sense for him to do most of those things considering his motive. and even if there was maybe the idea it could hurt the hero's moral he HAD originally planned for Ladybug and chat to be there to reverse the damage.
like...I understand how bad gabe is...but alot of people act like he's the worst ever when he at least has a guaranteed reverse damage button. being willing to do damage when you know it can be reversed is WAY different from doing it when you think the damage is permanent. its why we often cut ladybug slack for when she destroys something for her plans to work...because she knows she can fix it.
it also makes gabe and nathalie boyh slowly escalating make way more sense and why the heros who are there in person unlike gabe who is just in his room can actually see the damage that he does and how the aftermath isn't clear.
like how mari saw people judging ivan for what he did in stoneheart...
even if arguably the more akumas the less the stigma would happen in theory is everyone could be a target.
@clarisacalderon9555 The movie at least does imply that using the miraculous for evil deeds actually does activly fuck with Gabriel's mental health to the point he's blacking out and doesn't fully remember what he does as Hawkmoth (like he literally doesn't even know he made the first akuma until he see's the battle being reported on the news the enxt day), which is why he looks so ill by the end of the movie.
@@nobody2996 I guess...but i feel like the movie escalated things a bit too quickly as at least show gabe didn't go from one akuma to akumatizing people he broke out of prison so quickly
They could have made him a lot better. Gabriel could have been seen looking a little guilty doing evil things. Or also make it so that if you would use a miraculous for evil it starts to corrupt your soul. Which would explain why Gabriel became the asshole father he did. But no. We can't have nice things.
I can't believe anyone thought that he wasn't the same person! I knew immediately they look and sound exactly the same!!!!!
Yeah they definitely let him overstay his welcome. For a show that supposedly takes inspiration from "Spiderman", it sure lacks the amount of villians to make it compelling. Plus Marinette dropped the ball by holding onto all the miraculous like an obessesion. Just imagine if she had at least distributed the ones to the people we already trusted. Or at least a core 5, then it wouldve given them more room to work with. Heroes are only as good as their villians. Since Gabe is weak and random, and Mari is written like the best hero of all time-- it causes a big disconnect
I lost access to the show when Disney yanked their content off other networks, so only saw S1/S2 and a few S3 episodes. I'd really assumed that Gabriel was going to be redeemed or removed as villian after his motive was revealed and Natalie was probably taking over the villian role once she realised her affections were not returned.
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27:18 "Wow you are just the Grand Central Station of Disappointment, aren't you?"
Miraculous is a mess I mean seasons 3,4,5, is possible in a show with so much potential only season 1, season 2 and the specials are the only worthy things.
If Astruc didn’t wanted to change season 3 and created the mess and the horrible things he did ( make Gabriel a monster and the fake Chloe redemption).