Holding and Machining Small Screws !!
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- čas přidán 21. 08. 2024
- This video shows how to easily hold small cap screws for accurate and repetitive machining operations without damaging the screw. This one is worth watching. Take a Look !!
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I make my own screws when rebuilding vintage model aero engines. S12L14 for most but head screws from silver steel (drill rod blank in the USA) To hold the screw for milling the slot in the head or for machining proprietary screws to length I have made a series of thread holding collets. Drilled and tapped in brass for each screw thread size, I then cut three cuts at 120 degrees, two almost to the tapped hole OD and one into the bore. Variously used hacksaw, junior hacksaw or cut with slitting saw on the milling machine. Hold the "threaded collet" in C3 draw bar collet that my Lathe uses lining up the collet slots to machine threaded section to length if shortening a proprietary screw, then chamfer the thread start. Normal lathe rotation so no need to grind up reverse rotation tools. Smallest screw I have made was 0.035" major dia. after Mother lost hinge screw in her glasses on a Sunday morning. Single point screw cut, 302 stainless so it wouldn't corrode and head slot cut with a Jewellers saw. Tricky !
Joe's fixture ideas are always a gem. Fantastic.
Glad you like them!
First
Love the content as always. 20 year journeyman machinist here. But I go the other side of the scale, I run a little lathe with 12ft swing
First on first.
@@CorbinMusso88 first first gang 💪🏻
Just the thing for cribbage board pins 😂
Thanks Joe. Same for metric SHCS. Nominal diameter of thread = thickness of head. I use a lantern chuck but it's still fiddly for arthritic fingers😢
Thanks for the comment and visit Preso.
I do this often but the little chamfer is a great refinement. As always I learn so much from your channel.
That’s great! I’ve been in the trade a long time and never saw this technique. Thanks for sharing!
This video was extremely timely, I need to make a m4 fillister screw for an old shotgun and this will make it easier than I was going to do it
Excellent.
Thank you so much for the education Joe.. i wasn't aware that the cap's depth matched the screw diameter. Every day's a school day !
Hi Del. This trade is so deep we could all learn something new till the day we retire. Thanks for stopping by.
I frequently have to replace mangled or missing screws with special heads and or threads. Several years ago I was tired of keeping an inventory of screws on hand so I made a set of these fixtures from hex brass, mainly because I had about a foot on hand. While I was at it I made 3-4 spacers in each size that fit the counter bore. This allows me to adjust the length of the screw by adding one or more spacers under the screw head. Now I just buy one inch screws with various heads and threads and spend less time chasing screws or waiting for them to arrive. Have a great holiday with your family!
I made a few similar arbours to hold screws when I’m making new pointed screws for distributor caps on the vintage magnetos I rebuild. I touch the tool onto the face of the arbour to set my zero & I know how long to make the pointed end (I have a couple of dedicated chamfer tools to get the right angle depending on which magneto it’s for.
But I threaded the counterbored section on mine & made a brass grub screw to go in there & hold the screw in. In theory it could wind the screw & grubscrew out, but that’s yet to happen. I screw that grubscrew in there nice & tight (usually in a small collet block in my bench vice) & so far they’ve all stayed put.
I might try setting the tools up for reverse rotation, see how it goes.
Either that or maybe thread that counterbored section left hand & make a left handed grubscrew.
Maybe one day I’ll mess around with it, when I’ve got the time.
Your knowledge and skill on working with such small parts is simply astounding! I appreciate all the time and effort you put into the videos you make.
Thank you very much!
If turning in reverse not an option, thread the counterbore (larger thread) and use a bolt in this to clamp the small bolt in position. The difference in thread pitches prevent both unwinding.
Great tips! was not expecting the boring tool for the left hand turning.
Something new every day👍👌🇦🇺
I run thousands of screws of various sizes this way for a major defense contractor. Buy them from the screw machine shop, and I cutoff and/or face, chamfer to length. Usually to +or- .002.
Some then get the threads undercut to make for captive screws. Been doing that for a looooong time
I had a look in my wristwatch.
The screws in there make your little screw look like a sumo wressler thats eaten too many weetabix.
Now that gives me 2 ideas: I need a weetabix, No I mean you could do the door hinge "properly" (unlike the real deal) and strip out 4 jewels and screws from an old clock to fit the door.
You may even get some spring steel and a couple of jewels to make a doorlock / latch.
Dont mind me, I am just adding comment to assist algorithm.
Thanks Joe, take care.
Metric goes down to M0.6 I believe. Please don't tell DELL. They've already started using M1.6 screws in their laptops... 1.6mm is just under 1/16".
(Had to take out the keyboard of a Latitude 7420. Lots of the little buggers all around the frame. Philips heads, countersunk. One of them ended up stripping the head. Had to drill it out with a 0.8mm drill bit to get the head off. )
I wouldn't bother with the jewels. They're effing difficult to place properly, and there won't be that much use so wear is insignificant. Those doors doesn't have very smooth hinges in RL, either, so 'keep it real' ;-)
Spring steel is fun. Just got hold of some 0.1mm thick sheets. Have no idea what to use it for, just wanted to play with it...
If you put a shoulder on the collet side of the arbor or a collet stop you can use the dro to get the length the same using the dro or a carriage stop. Looks like you're using a collet stop but i thought I'd call it out for those that might have missed it
Thanks Joe , another great idea that helps us all,
Glad to help
Thanks again Joe, another great tip - I feel like a goose for not thinking of running in reverse to stop a thread "un-loosening" :) And yes, 'cap height = thread dia' holds true for metric screws as well.
Didn't know that about the head height being the same as the diameter.
One thing I learned a long time ago was to get the diameter, for imperial screws, you take the number multiply by 13 and add 60. A #1-72 would be:
1 * 13 = 13
13 + 60 = 73 or .073"
#10
10 * 13 = 130"
130 + 60 = 190 or .190"
But then you get thrown a curve ball like Low Head Cap Screws 😂
I've found I really prefer metric. Tap drill charts. We don't need no stinking tap drill charts.
@@mpetersen6As a metric guy "letter drills" and "gauge" (as in sheet metal or wire gauge) is the most absurd thing I ever heard
That is so so good Christopher. Returning to hobby machining after 2 years at tech school 60 years ago there is so much to learn.preplanning a 10" naval cannon with a 10-24 rod and nuts??? Now I know exactly what it means.
Joe's videos are just priceless to me in so many ways.
@@Sketch1994 That is ok unless you are trying for a specific amount of thread engagement, e.g. with tough materials. Then your set of fractional, letter, and number drills are really handy. When I drill holes for metric threads, I usually don't even bother with metric tap drills.
Christopher's hint about how number sized screws is important to know if you are working on very old machinery (100+ years) or instruments. Rarely used number sized screws show up once in a while. There are other thread systems from back in the day that you need to be aware of as well. Old reference books like Machinery's Handbook describe them. Even if, like Sketch, you work in metric, you need to be aware of different metric diameter and pitch combinations that existed before 1945. German, French, British, and Japanese standards had differences.
Cheers from NC/USA
What about 0, 00, and 000 screws?
Thanks Joe, this was really useful for me! Another "why didnt I think of that"...
I usually cut small stuff with dental separating discs using a dremel type tool. Cutting off the excess in the lathe would perhaps be quicker and eliminate the sander...
Gunsmiths use O1 tool steel bar stock that they/we drill and tap to the desired size. Harden it in a flame and quench it in oil and then use a file to shorten your screw. The file won't cut into the hardened tool steel so you have no risk of thinning the bar stock. You can mill it before hardening to a set thickness if you have a lot of screws to make of the same length.
I like it. The advantage I can see on this method is you can get a chamfer on the first thread. Of course the disadvantage to the demonstrated method is that they are done one by one.
I have to do this frequently, usually making sets of screws 4 to 12 at a time. A few years ago. I made jigs similar to yours but I threaded the counterbored area to accommodate a flat tipped set screw of an appropriate size to set the needed length of thread. I measure the length of the screw and then set the amount that needs to be removed. I do a rough cut with a fine saw then make the Final Cut in the lathe in reverse. Once I found it worked I made a set of four for the screws I see, the process goes pretty fast and cuts down on the inventory of screws
Watchmakers use a similar set up called a “lantern chuck”.
They can be really tiny.
Thanks for clear and concise video.
Keep em coming.
Jim
TheClockworks, N Ireland.
One way to avoid the screw backing out is to tap the c/bore for a lock screw.
Genuis adding the chamfer. Thanks!
It cleans it up.
Joe, you're halfway to making a Lantern chuck. I made one as an apprentice in the 70s, really, really useful piece of kit
Every once in a while I find these posts of yours I missed. This trick, I can use. Input it in the jigs and fixtures drawer. They are all of use in the future at one point or another.
Ya just have to remember its in there.
@@joepie221 LOL, The master of tiny strikes again. Have you tried that file treatment yet ?
I've been using larger diameter split "buttons" rather than your longer sleeve of similar design for #6 up to 1/2". Split so they grab the screw threads to permit turning the normal way. Never occurred to me to run them in reverse. Where were you when I needed you! ? ! ? 😄 Seriously though, I won't replace the sizes I've got already since the split gripping design works fine. But I think any of the in between sizes still to be done will be used for reverse turning to avoid the need for the split design with extra hole and saw cut.
Regarding X being the same on metric screws, the M3 & M5 screws within my reach measure the same just like your Imperial Standard screws.
Thanks Again Joe!
Thanks Joe I have a similar setup because I have to modify or make very small screws for the torsion clocks I restore down to 12 and 14 BA but I have a larger thread behind to lock screw in because I have a threaded chuck on my Myford and it’s almost how a lantern chuck works but I quite often use the Pultra P type lathe and a graver.
Thanks Joe that’s definitely going into my mental Rolodex skip the cheese burger you need a pork roll sandwich
I do it in a similar way but I cut the screw (small screws) with wire cutters rather than grind it and then put it in the lathe and finish it off, great channel, very informative and things well explained 🙂, thank you for great content
My pleasure. Thanks for being a subscriber.
Right on Joe - excellent as always - unloosen or loosen makes me chuckle everytime its like saying untighten or tighten 🔩
Thanks again
I have learned alot from you. Thanks!
Glad to help
I’ve used this technique on larger screws but always cut a slot in the arbor to facilitate gripping the screw like a collet. I never thought to run the lathe in reverse and rely on the thread to hold the screw in place. I will be doing this from now on. Thanks for the idea!
I have used both, but on the smaller stuff, this is golden.
In the metric system, the height of a slotted screw head and the height of a smooth head can vary depending on the type of screw and its specification. However, for many standard screws, the head height can approximately equal the diameter of the threaded part.
For instance, for certain countersunk or cylindrical head screws, the head height might be close to the diameter of the threaded part, but this isn't an absolute rule for all screw types.
For hexagonal heads, it's typically 1.5 times the diameter, and I believe this applies in the imperial system as well.
Rite Joe, took me a while to realise the screws were sitting on a pencil rubber in the thumbnail! Useful as always Dude! Stay safe n well. TFS, GB :)
It's a thing of beauty. That is now in my repertoire...
Normally followed by....." is a joy forever"
Excellent tip, Joe! I hope to be able to remember it when it will be useful.
Thanks, MJ
I regularly use 0-80 socket heads (electronics assembly), I can assure you the pucker factor is HIGH on drilling a .046 hole in 60-61 and tapping it.
Gtfo here with your aluminum bs 🤣 some of us machine real metals
I have used that method many times. Works great.
Great way of doing this, goes on the list of 'best ideas'
Always enjoy watching
FYI Jo that relationship appears, on the cap screws I have checked, to be the same for metric sized cap screws. If I'm in hurry I mill a piece of MS to the thickness of the thread length required, drill and tap a hole then fit screw and use a file or a grindstone or even a hacksaw to cut the screw to length. Backing the screw out usually cleans up any burr created. True I don't get the finish you do but then the cut end of the screw is usually hidden from view.
Fantastic Joe as usual, you always have some unique methods of fixturing 😊
Thank you and happy thanks giving.
For small screws I drill and tap a piece of 125 or .187 bar stock. Screw the screw in untill the head bottoms out on the bar stock. Hold the head with a screwdriver and lightly sand the screw to the length you want on a belt sander. Checking length with calipers as you go. Also, you can file or sand a small cham on the end. You may have to cool the screw by dipping the bar stock in some water. When you unscrew the screw the bar stock will clean the threads up as it unscrews. This is a fast way of shortening screws once you get the hang of it.
Agreed.
Ya did it again, Joseph. I never make anything that small but that would be an outstanding way to make non standard length even something like 1/4-28 screws, or put a dog points on a 3/8 set screws if you need one in a hurry. . (I don't know why I never thought of turning the lathe in reverse,,,????? ) Another trick to put in the bag of tricks.
Nice work
Set screws I have used this system. Altered the points on them
good video Mr Joe Pie..thanks for your time
Definitely a couple of Tacos and a burrito! On the Canadian Border with New York, and the one thing that I miss most is the Mexican Food! 😢 they just don’t understand real cuisine up here…..
Hi Joe, well that was impressive. A good go to tip to keep in the back of the mind! Thanks!
Excellent - well thought out - a very useful Tip.
Joe,
I love your videos
You always come up with very surprising solutions.
I had thought if you made the fixture as shown but thread the larger bored side and thread it for a bolt or screw that will clear the collet chuck. Thread it in till it contacts the screw head. Then it can't back out running the mill in the forwar direction.
There are many modifications that could be made to this concept I'm sure.
Thanks Joe, I have some short small diameter studs to make soon, this method will make them easy and a pleasure to make. t
Nice technique.
I have a pretty complete set of arbors for all the smaller size inch and metric screws. Works great! Good idea, just not a new one.
I have a complete set also. Comes in very handy. Also, just use drill rod arbors. Don’t need to be hard unless you’re going to use dozens or hundreds of times.
Oh nice! I could've used this idea a couple months ago when I made a 0.75mm watch screw! I had to remake it because the pin vise ate my threads when I tried to finish the head. x.x The tip was murder as well. BTW, I made a plastic 0.177" BB on my watchmaker's lathe using the form tool idea you showed awhile back! :D
Always learn something. Thanks Joe!
Joe I love this. What I would likely do is create a screw driver end jam nut on the back side to prevent turning out. Just a thought. Just a fine cut off. Thought you were going to thread the screw! Nice show.
By the way, there's an old school method for holding screws that I just recalled. But it's a LOT more work to make than this sleeve idea or my similar buttons. The old school way was a "lantern chuck". Faced with how much work they are to make and ESPECIALLY for such a small size screw your way is a WHOLE lot easier and faster.
FWIW. Joe's method is also a lantern chuck. Albeit much easier to make.
@@ramonching7772 It's the essence of a Lantern Chuck; what you get when you simplify it down to the fewest possible parts.
Also, I believe most Lantern Chucks had issues with cutting. Joe's doesn't have that issue because he has a threaded hole and can run the lathe in reverse.
Joe may need a unique Lantern Chuck for every different size and thread bolt he wants to machine, but so what? Old school Lanterns used inserts, so they also had additional parts.
@@norwegiangadgetman I understand. Somehow, a machinist would make what he needs. A marketing company will have to make something universal so that it can accommodate most of the potential customer's needs. Hence, more complexity.
IMHO simplicity beats universal.
@@ramonching7772 I'd have to suggest "not really" if we take the screw on frame that holds the screw to the center cone as being the "lantern". Or the situation is that we are gripping the micro lantern chuck by the "glass". Besides, the reasoning behind the fixture base in the chuck and the screw on "lantern" is to permit turning the screw ends using normal rotation rather than reversed.
Beautiful work and technique, Joe! Adding this technique to the toolbox. ^____^
Simple and effective. That's how we like it :)
Not having a lathe, I've always just had to make a plate for the mill to chop these little screws down. That said, I often cut with some kind of side cutter, and then file to length.
Its like getting a 1 on 1 lesson from your metalwork teacher, but when there doing something that they enjoy, something fun. Love it Joe, those Enco 5C collet close ups are great.👍👌🇦🇺
I wish they were hardinge collet closeups. :)
Wonderful shop gem! :)
Thank you!
Thanks
Great Idea Joe
Thanks for the video keep on keeping on.
WOW!! Brilliant Method!
Thank you! It works well.
collets still hold in reverse and forward good tip.
Nice work, great tip. However both of my lathes have screw on chucks so I would do the same but thread the counter-bore to take a screw to bind the object screw in and run the lathe forwards.
Maybe use a collet instead
@@bobwas4066 To shorten the threaded section? That would be an awful lot of stick out.
@@BensWorkshopUse a collet that fits in your spindle internal taper. Such as a Morse Taper collet.
@@grntitan1 I assumed the collet fitted the late, but if you are shortening the threaded section you will have a lot of stick out from where the bolt is held by only its head regardless of the type of collet used.
Take the chuck off the headstock. Use a collet in the headstock, to hold the fixture, which has the screw in it. My lathes also have screw on chucks, I use 5C collets a lot.
Nice work Joe . Australia
Great idea, Joe!
Enjoyed as always 👌
Have a safe and great thanksgiving!
Thanks! Definitely valuable information!
Great tip for very short screws. Works for any screw I think.
It should.
Thx a lot for the inspiration, will make some of these…
I’ve use this method sometimes but I use a collet stop that will fit down into the counterbore and hold the head of the screw to keep it from spinning out
I try to avoid using the head as the stop point, but I see the value of your setup.
@@joepie221 yeah, depending on the head it isn’t as precise. I like your tips and tricks videos. Especially on the tiny stuff because that’s where I’m at. I’m at the point if I find a jewelers lathe near me, I’m gonna buy it
Great tip!
Great idea. Thanks !
You bet!
Great information
Nice! Thank You.
Great tip!!
👍 thanks for sharing!
Nice detailedwork,Joe.The mouse with the cooky and the cheese humberger in one side of the brain and the holding fixture for small screws in the opposite side of the brain there not easy to connect.I just wonder if they have opposite threadings.Stick to something in the mean time is better that spinning all the time and in case of doubt ,the doubt does´t exist so you hold your horses because there is so much of what makes the grass to grow green.Thank you.
My lathe cannot reverse so I would tap that relief hole and run a locking screw into the head of the screw being shortened.
Sounds like a viable solution.
My old Craftsman lathe doesn't reverse either. I was thinking the same thing.
Thanks Joe - more magic :)
Love it, Cheers Mate
I could let ya do my thinkin fer me all day !! Cause yer better at it !!
Thanks.
Great idea
Thank you! 😊
FYI, the head-depth/thread-diameter ratio of 1 that you stated for UNC and UNF socket head cap screws also applies to similar metric screws... and to imperial BSW, BSF and BA socket head cap screws. Unfortunately, the head diameter doesn't follow a simple ratio and imperial socket head cap screws (including UNC and UNF) generally have proportionally slimmer heads. eg an M6 screw has a 10 mm diameter head, but a 1/4" UNC, UNF, BSW and BSF screw has a 3/8" (9.5 mm) diameter head. It's never as straightforward as you'd hope...
That's about 80% of the way to a lantern chuck.
Thanks!
Many thanks. Very much appreciated.
5:18 same for metric screws
Great video Joe, thanks for the info..
No problem 👍
Your amazing. Thank you.
Happy to help!
I’m currently shortening lots of 7 BA bolts with hex heads. I’m using double nuts as the arbor but I think I can use this method but the arbor would have to be much larger diameter to accommodate the nut spinner.
I would agree.