V14 Climber on Indoor vs Outdoor Grades // Alex Johnson
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- čas přidán 11. 09. 2024
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I think much of the reason that lower grades are substantially easier in the gym is that gyms need to encourage people to start climbing and stay with it to make money. If they set true to grade V1s and V2s, many beginner climbers would give up on the sport quickly. The other problem is the V scale has a pretty high starting level. V0 outside can be pretty challenging for new climbers. Compare to font scale which has plenty of room for differentiation within the V0 grade.
Yes! My gym differentiates 2, 3a, 3b, 3c, 4a, 4b, 4c, 5a, 5a+, 5b, 5b+, 5c, 5c+ (13 grades); with V grades that is equivalent to VB/V0/V1/V2 (4 grades). When using V grades you kinda have to grade it a touch low to give people a sense of progression.
I think it's because the gym setters have a better idea of what like a v2 is then some random v7 climber. I find that gym grades are much more linear. while outdoor is logarithmic, where a v5 outdoor doesn't seem much harder than a v3. while a gym v5 is much much harder than a v5
@@cosmey449 what? I find a pretty large difference between V3 and V5 both indoor and outdoor. Also, I find outdoor V5 to be harder in general than indoor V5. That generally switches for me around V7/8 where I start to find gym grades (for example V9 and above) typically harder than outdoor V9 and above. Not sure what you mean by “a gym V5 is much much harder than a V5.”
@@matthewsevers5862 meant harder than a v3
@@cosmey449 gotcha, that’s interesting that the difference feels greater in the gym for you. It feels opposite for me. In the gym I should flash V3 and V5 almost always. But outside I would expect to flash V3 and there’s a pretty decent chance that I don’t flash V5 outside meaning the gap is wider for me outdoors between grades.
It’s cool to hear her talk about the grade flip because I experienced the same thing at around v9 but I’ve never heard anyone else talk about that.
This makes me think that my gym is quite well graded. I climb approximately at the same level indoors and outdoors. What I have noticed however is that indoor problems tend to be more powerful often with bigger moves where outdoor bouldering feels ”easier” but holds are smaller and therefore more taxing to fingers. After indoor session I feel tired in my whole body but my fingers are usually okay and outside it’s just the opposite.
I would say that the other difference between inside or outside has come to the conclusion that at a high level, inside problems tend to be a “can you do the move”. Whereas outside it is more about can you figure a way out to climb the rock. Theres always feet to find or maybe a different way to do a move / finding out beta. Inside, usually there is no tricky or new beta. It is can you do the move that the route-setter set. And if you are not tall enough or powerful enough or have good enough footwork, then no, the hard climb in the gym will just not go.
Great response: I was thinking about this and now you have saved me the effort.
Not an exact correlation, but I was extremely humbled when I went indoor climbing in Vegas where the setters and a lot of the climbers have experience outdoors at Red Rocks. I figured it was the outdoor influence. The sets used a lot less modern dynamic bouldering and more crimp strength and body positioning/ static strength. Even the blank walls were much more slick and not as useful for smearing as the typical commercial gym wall. I climbed a good 2-3 grades less there than what I do at various gyms around my home area.
a lot of good takes. I also find the grade difficulty difference switches with higher grades outside, friction was what i concluded. the comparison to skateboarders is also very good.
Super interesting discussion! I love all of Alex’s points, and the skateboarding comparison felt very accurate. I climb v7 indoor, and project v4 outdoor, so she nailed that too. Excited to get strong enough where the grade difficulty flips 😅
A V1 at my gym is a V10 at you’re gym 😎
I think harder grades outside feel easier because many setters at gyms do not have a good conception of what those harder grades even feel like and may overestimate how difficult a V9 or 10 is. Also, like Alex said, everyone, even setters, have very different strengths and may not climb much outside their home gym. The harder boulders will inevitably be set according the setter’s strengths and may also be morpho.
Yeah most of the setters are average height where I climb (5'6"-5'8"). Really tall and really short climbers tend to struggle it seems. Im a taller climber and climb about 6 vgrades harder outside, no joke.
Not sure where you live but here setters are all former or current elite climbers, including outdoors. Our head setter has done multiple V15 and V16 outside.
I climbed indoor in Paris for 2 years and recently made the transition to Fontainebleau and what a humbling experience it has been. First day on the boulders it felt like starting from zero again, the exposure, the holds, the skin, the style, the route reading... The ONLY climbing style that seemed ok was overhangs/roofs.
This is definitely true for my area. I think it's for the best to have grades 1 through 7 be a bit easier in the gym because for each grade you're able to climb that's 10 or 20 more problems in the gym you can do. I remember a few years ago my gym suddenly got very sandbagged and I had about 20% less problems I was able to climb. It was even worse for people who maxed out at V3 or 4.
Best is to climb inside and outside, there is much more different moves you can perform inside in same session vs outside but real rock feeling is so great, I need both.
Outdoor starting grades are crazy. It's like: RISK YOUR LIFE for this V0 boulder.
😂😅
Not surprised to hear her opinions on this. I've noticed a similar pattern too. I've done an 8B+ outdoor boulder and a handful of 8Bs, but the best I've ever managed on a Moonboard is 7C. It's hard at times to remember that grades are just grades, but once you start accepting that indoor climbing/board climbing/outdoor climbing are essentially different sports, then things start to feel more normal each within their own spectrum. Cheers from Spain!
I fully agree, indoor and outdoor climbing are entirely different sports, even if most people who do one usually do the other as well. The feeling of solving a random problem nature provided is entirely different from solving the physical puzzle a route setter created, even if we can love them both.
I'm relatively new to outdoor climbing, my highest grade outside was day flash V9 and indoors I climb V10 pretty regularly. In my experience the difficulty starts feeling the same at about V8. One thing that has a big impact on me is the fact that hard indoor climbs will have multiple hard moves in a row at that grade or for nearly the whole climb. Where as with outdoors, there could be a V8, V9, V10 crux but the rest of the moves are like V2 ish. As someone with pretty bad power indurance for my grade this meant that when I started climbing outside it often felt easier than inside. I feel like it all depends on your strong suit. If you are more technical, climbing inside will feel harder at high grades for sure. If you are more comfy with just hard strength moves, inside will feel the same or easier.
I've learned to appreciate the massive skill that competition climbers have and while I agree that there is a strength overlap from indoor vs. outdoor, I would argue that the BIGGEST overlap is skill and technique acquisition. While the average indoor climber may never feel this, it's hard not to believe that when these comp kids go out and crush all of the hard outdoor boulders (and extremely quickly at that), what is propelling them towards success is not strength, which plenty of "outdoor" climbers have in comparison, but ability to climb perfectly in a short amount of time. As I've learned to appreciate "comp style" boulders, it teaches you so many important things that you can learn outside, but ALSO can learn inside: footwork, balance, hip movement, flow, precision, when to try hard and when not to, being creative, etc... The list goes on. If you forget about the grades for a second, indoor climbing can actually prepare you super well for outdoor climbing.
Brand new to bouldering and boy does this ring true. I did a V5 in the gym the second time I ever went, then confidently went to climb outside and found I wasn't that close to sending the V2s! Working hard outside feels much more fun and comfortable though - beautiful, free, plus I feel a bit self-conscious trying things over and over in the gym.
One of the reasons why inside hard climbing feels significantly harder than outside is motivation (for me at least) after a certain point, you have to really tryhard multiple moves after another. When it comes to power resistant boulders without any extremely hard crux moves (which are multiple grades harder than the other moves) the single moves doesn’t get harder than V10/11 single move most of the time. Meaning that a V11 climber is able to do like 99% of the single moves on power resistant v12/13. So if you want to improve outdoors you’ll have to dial in moves, perfect sequences on a different level than indoors and try really hard ground up after practicing everything. Which is time and energy consuming. And this is why Iam usually not motivated enough to do this indoors. I train indoors, not project hard. I train to project hard outdoors. So usually a very hard indoor climb would be most likely roughly the same as in the outdoors, but we just approach it differently and that’s why it feels harder. Because you’re not committed enough, which is healthy and normal if you’re an outdoor project focused climber.
This makes me feel much better about those V8/9 struggles at Momentum.
Slightly unrelated, but someone describes climbing progression not as a linear line from V0, but more like spokes on a wheel kind of skill tree. You can specialize, but it’s better to round things out.
I think this has changed my view on grades a lot - some folks can climb powerful boulders but can’t do simple slabs, some are good with crimps but not slopers, and some (very vocal) folks can’t do coordination dynos. For me, this takes a lot of the insecurity out of not being able to send certain grades or frustration about grade inconsistency and just view routes I can’t do as exposing a skill gap that I can work on
This is an awesome topic to discuss. I agree completely with what alex was saying and have experienced it too. When I first started, I thought outdoor grades were so hard compared to indoor. Now I climb a lot harder outside than inside lol. I think i typically have more options when climbing outside and can get more creative with my problem solving. Indoors feels more forced where there is one hard move or sequence that requires you to be strong if you want to do it.
Very much agree. Outside if I the problem doesn't suit my size/style and I can't find my own beta, I'll just go climb something else. Inside you're stuck with twenty or so problems for your skill level and it might be that more than half of it has forced beta that doesn't suit you.
I think the gym vs. the area makes a difference. Sandstone climbs more like a gym. Granite is worlds different. I've got a number of v5 outside, and v6 projects I've done every move in and linked a lot, and I've never climbed v8 in a gym. There are reasonable v6-v8 in white pine area of little cottonwood, and a ton of v4s I can't start lower down. I know people who have climbed v9 outside who only climb v6 on the moon board. Grades are super subjective.
There is no area where I've climbed v4 outside that feels like a gym. Anything easier than that has no relationship to a gym.
Outdoor low grades are massively sandbagged and its easy to prove. If you take the font grading system 1-4 are walking/scrambling. There are problems rated 4 outdoors that are definitely not scrambles but require a lot of technique, strength and pulling to send. 4 in font scale is a hard scramble.
I just can’t try as hard on something inside. But I’ll drive 5 hours to get a session in on my project. And my skin is sweaty, it’ll never be 45f and dry inside the gym.
Glad to have a gym that grades like outdoor
I think the reason why easy outdoor climbs feel harder than indoor climbs, is the same why hard outdoor climbs feel easier than indoor climbs; there is a lot more nuance on real rock.
When you just start out, all these options and nuances are overwelming, making it very likely that you did not take the easiest possible way to climb the route (even as an experienced climber it is easy to overlook the 'easiest' solution on a easy climb). Likewise, when you are more experienced and try something hard outside, you very well might find a subtle different foothold/way to hold the crimp/body position whatever that makes the crux work for you, whereas indoors you just have the holds that the setters gave you.
In the end, grades should reflect how much effort something takes when you do it in the easiest way possible.
And then there is also the issue of tradition while climbing outdoors; some area's have really stiff 'easy' climbs because it was developed a long time ago, and the grading scale just didn't have the higher grades yet. furthermore, specific area's can have a very specific style that needs plenty time getting used to. Anyone who has been to Fontainbleau knows that a 5A slab is no joke
I'd like to hear more in how they are different, but would be nice to get another interview on that. As gym climber only, due to opportunity, living in a city with no car, I know next to nothing about bouldering on rocks.
I climb harder outside than inside, inside is a lot about strength and outside is about technique and way many more possibilities so you can always find a beta that suits you
I find indoor climbing harder for v8/9 + harder inside than outside.
Inisde... I am forced into hands and feet that on an outdoor problem, I could likely find dozens of intermediates that fit one's body strengths, mobility, and personal experience of movement in their brain.
Being able to find and create positions on problems outside is a huge learning curve for climbers with mostly gym backgrounds. The 1 foot isn't pink. There are 10 foot options... And they all look the same. But one (or two or more... But not the most common.. is for you... Now remember THAT foot in the matrix of others (brush yo ticks... Unless it's an active proj..)
Climbing hard boulders in a gym is likely the synthesis of movement and sensation of difficulty on an exponential scale based around that setter or setter team's perception of experience. Largely defined by outside experiences.
If the setter and head setter are not super experienced or mindful (or they climb together a ton, or don't get certified)... That gym v7 based on their forerunning... Is legit. But if their all "v double digit" male boulders who are about the same body type.... Their reality of movement is not yours... And try as they might... They can't live your reality.
Outside bouldering will always trump inside set boulders when it comes to learning your own body and way you see movement. But gym set boulders will make you work really hard at things you cant do well. And I think that's where they can shine.
It's a perspective. After coaching for 7+ years. I think it's respectful and appropriate to call out such nuisances between the two realms. The only pink boulder I have ever climbed outside was the most polished piece of rock I ever touched... I guess spray paint isn't great for friction... But the art was cool... I guess...
Outside...the feet...truer words have never been spoke. But I also think that answers the flip as once you get to a certain grade indoors the feet go away also. Under V6 indoors tend to have at least marginal feet (assuming there are feet ie not all heel hooks or campusing). Meaning that high level climbers are more adapted to bad feet when they go outside...V6 under climbers it is a shock to their system.
Awesome little interview and great topic to discuss. Could listen to this topic for hours! Also… is this the format of the Struggle Climbing Show now? Short interviews on youtube and long interviews on podcasts platforms? Or is this a snapshot of a former podcast that I forgot about?
Something else that really distinguishes indoor and outdoor is the bright neon holds. This might be specific to me, but I wear glasses but prefer to climb without them. I don't want to smash them up. So indoor that's not a problem. Sure, I'll misjudge a hold every now and then, but generally I can see enough to estimate what a hold is gonna be like. Outdoor...not so much. It's just a wall of gray and really hard to see definition. I think that even for people that do not wear glasses, this makes some form of difference. It's easier to aim for a bright yellow crimp than a scarcely believable grey dent in the rock.
Not even just a matter of aiming for the hold, sometimes outside you don't even know what the hell you are supposed to be grabbing. If you are lucky there might be chalk on it, but if there isn't you just kinda look around panicking, getting more and more tired lol. This is especially bad on routes.
A lot of lot of gyms in Europe certainly in the UK base their setting on the the 'people =panel space over time model'
This is I suppose is yo encourage a flow of maximum people around their walls.Ive been climbing for 35 years+ and know if I can't train on a good board and I try to train systematically using set circuits my climbing gets dumbed down.Result it takes longer to readapt to outdoors than say 20 years ago
As a short woman, lots of grades inside don't make much sense to me. Route setting is quite subjective and indoors the setters tend to catter to the "average" body of the client. Not all the gyms are like that but I feel like outdoors you can try a lot of stuff in order to force a move, whereas inside you cannot always break the beta that the setter forced on you.
V grades are unfortunate in that 0 corresponds to 5.10d which is not a grade that a beginner could be expected to touch. So really commercials gyms should start boulders at V-minus10, but that would hurt the ego of patrons.
Interesting about the grade flip indoor after V8 Interesting indeed
My thing is, who are low grades for if not new climbers. If VB is literally beginner, how big are the jumps in difficulty as you go up? It seems to be massive jumps between V1/2/3/4/5/6 but seem to reduce in jumps in difficulty after that, which makes little sense to me. If V4 is twice as difficult as a V3, why is a V10 only 25% or so harder than a V9? I think something with +/- grades, and a more clear definition of what is expected at that grade. For example - VB is something any reasonably fit person could do, V1 would require a little more thought, strength or some minor technique, such as an easy gaston or a low hand foot match. V2 could require a little more technique, have slightly bigger moves or worse holds, V3 requiring a some moderate technique, like a light toe or heel hook, mantle etc, V4 requiring either a firm implementation of a single technique, or moderate varied technique, V5 requiring a solid grasp of technique and/or strength, bad holds, on and on. I feel the grades become somewhat less important as you go above V12 or so, as the requirement is just to be an insanely good climber absolutely dedicated to the sport, while the grades below V12 give a lot more information regarding if a crag is worth going to, especially if your group has a large range of climbing ability, wither you want to go for an easy day or projecting etc, while above V12 I imagine you would usually expect a hard project regardless. Its pretty disappointing going out with my mother and cousins who climb V4-6 in the gym, to a spot that is said to have 30+ V1-3s and being the only one able to do more than a few routes, which is my biggest gripe with the varied low ratings.
hell, there's biases between routesetters in the same gym sometimes. I currently climb in the 5.10 range and there are a few cases where i found a 5.10- harder than some of the 5.10+ problems.
5:23 well what about people like Tomoa? He climbs extremely compy stuff inside and we’ve seen him flash a very hard Boulder, v14 if I’m not mistaken?
Really interesting video!!!
Alex is by no means saying people who are good at coordination and volume bouldering won't be good outside, but she mentions if you're doing the v8 paddle dyno toe catch problem at your gym don't expect to get a v8 outside in a session. plenty of athletes are great at both, but they're not great at both because of working one. Alex has been around the comp scene long enough to know where the skills transfer, especially how the transition to the modern style has furthered this divide.
@@zacharylaschober gotcha, thanks for clearing that up
Tomoa is just super strong, likely as strong as those v17 climbers. However his highest grade outside is v15, so I'd say he is also not "very good" outside given his strength. He hasn't got much time so send hard outside though.
@@thestruggleclimbingshow thank you for answering! I loved the video, so much interesting information to think about.
I’ve always been taught that grades start to merge around v8
I agree I climb like two grades harder outside.
Go outside it's inspiring
Im actually stoked ima v7/8 climber indoors and I easily did a V6 outside in a session so I know my gym is strong 💪🏼
They are two different disciplines. You don't need to be strong STRONG to climb outdoors - someone who weighs 60kg and has small fingers is genetically suited for outdoors. I know guys who float up V9 outdoors but have no motor skills, dynamic power, coordination etc and struggle on V7 comp style indoors. Toby roberts, max milne, hamish macarthur would destroy Aidan, Bosi indoors and vice versa. I'm pretty sure Colin Duffy would whoop S. Rabatou indoors too but Rabatou wins outdoors!! Ultimately a lot depends on which one you invest the most time on and genetically suited for imo. Both incredible in their own way! Totally agree with the grading though, climbing grades outdoors is very difficult at V0 to V6, whilst grading above V8 indoors gets very difficult.
Great subject anyhow.... Interesting to hear everyones thoughts ✌️
Honestly, my very limited outdoor climbing has been on ungraded stuff, with street shoes & no chalk & I was surprised by how good the holds you can find are.
The friction (even when wet) and the security on some rock holds is far nicer than what I get in the gym, where I have some decent experience now (just entering v5s, flashing plenty of v4s)
I climb outside 80% of the time and have done that since I started and my indoor grade is about the same grade outside. I climb v7s consistently outside in one session but sometimes I can’t even think about how to do these compy gym boulders at the same grade