The Framework 16 Dollar-for-Dollar Competition!
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- čas přidán 19. 06. 2024
- The @FrameworkComputer Laptop 16 has no real competition in the mobile computing space, so I'm building it's biggest competition, a dollar-for-dollar DIY desktop PC. How much performance can you gain at the same cost?
The PC Build (Affiliate Links):
Asus Prime AP201 - amzn.to/3T3Aw5B
Deepcool LS720 - amzn.to/3OLwHR3
MSI PRO B650M-A WiFi - amzn.to/3I3HSkh
InWin P105II, 1050W - amzn.to/3OPgVVf
AMD Ryzen™ 9 7900X - amzn.to/3I2VwnH
CORSAIR VENGEANCE DDR5 - amzn.to/3OOEHR8S
Silicon Power 2TB NVMe M.2 - amzn.to/4bJZeQI
MSI Expert RTX 4080 Super - amzn.to/3wnKK9a
Arctic P12 Slim 120mm Fan - amzn.to/3Vg3i3V
Timecodes:
00:00 - Intro
01:26 - My Framework 16 Specs
02:43 - The PC Specs
03:51 - Gratuitous Build Montage
06:35 - The Total Cost
08:46 - Ask Your Questions!
09:44 - Keepin' it Real.
Find me on Social Media
Patreon: / elevatedsystems
Twitter: / elevatedsystem1
Instagram: /
Threads: www.threads.net/@cj.elevated
My Studio Equipment (Paid Links)
Blackmagic Pocket Cinema 6K Pro - amzn.to/3tA6ScP
Panasonic Lumix DMC-G7 - amzn.to/2VjqKSR
Panasonic Lumix DMC FZ300 - amzn.to/2WJnxw6
Sigma 18-35mm F1.8 Art DC HSM Lens - amzn.to/3quDgM0
Canon EF 50mm f/1.8 STM Lens -amzn.to/3uv13Of
Panasonic LUMIX G Lens, 25mm, F1.7 - amzn.to/3A9f9Vi
Magnus REX VT-5000 2-Stage Tripod - amzn.to/3GxsGJH
Neewer 72.4-Inch Camera Tripod - amzn.to/3fsRuqU
SMALLRIG Parabolic Softbox - amzn.to/3Hyvbxt
SmallRig RC 120D COB Light - amzn.to/3S9Grp4
Kshioe Softbox Lighting Kit - amzn.to/3A5vZEq
Neewer Camera Slider Motorized - amzn.to/3ltX54e
Sennheiser MKE 600 Shotgun Mic - amzn.to/3fziRPv
SAMSON Q2U Dynamic Microphone - amzn.to/3ikExBe
Sennheiser XS Wireless Lavalier System - amzn.to/3ilSIpA
PreSonus Eris E3.5 Studio Monitor - amzn.to/3CcVx4d
Behringer U-Phoria UM2 USB DAC - amzn.to/3ZmyOOO
Gator Frameworks Deluxe Boom Stand - amzn.to/3fs7Os3
Glide Gear TMP100 Teleprompter - amzn.to/3CdgIDy
GLEAM Microphone Stand - amzn.to/3A4dth5
Davinci Resolve 17 & Speed Editor - amzn.to/3fsECRG
AVerMedia Live Gamer ULTRA - amzn.to/3CCH5nV
Apple 2022 Mac Studio - amzn.to/3GXW6mS
LG 40WP95C-W 40” 5K2K Display - amzn.to/3ZtiiN6
INNOCN 15.6" OLED Portable Monitor. - amzn.to/3jEOqgu
BenQ ScreenBar Halo - amzn.to/3XpUZ52
Audio file(s) provided by Epidemic Sound
www.epidemicsound.com
Keywords: Framework 16 Laptop, DIY Laptop, Modular Laptop, Upgradable Laptop, Asus Prime AP201, Gaming PC Build, Ryzen 9 7940HS, RX 7700S, Desktop PC Upgrade, Gaming Rig, Workstation Setup, PC vs Laptop, High-End Gaming, Development Workstation, Tech Review, Performance Comparison, Custom PC Build, PC Cable Management, 4K Gaming, MSI Expert RTX 4080 Super, DeepCool LS720 - Věda a technologie
From a practical standpoint, and because my work involves travel, I've been using a desktop/laptop combo for several years. However, although I built my Windows desktop I've never had a laptop like the Framework, so I'm looking forward to your future comparisons.
Please talk about Linux compatibility and maybe about the keyboard
I might have been missing something: did you take the display into account when doing comparative calculations?
Thanks for your content. I am a happy owner of a Framework 13 AMD Ryzen, which coincidentally got shipped the day ZORIN 17 was released. 🙂
Yes, you missed something- 7:50
@@ElevatedSystems
Thanks, that's what I meant.
Looking forward to your follow-up.
Glad to see this video! Love the framework content.
This was the first video I watched on my Framework 16. It arrived today. I am very pleased, both with your video and well, with the laptop, too ;-)
looking forward to the rest of the series on the FW16
Fact: if you don’t need portability, get desktop instead of laptop as it always cheaper …..
Great video! I was thinking about a thin client that remote connects into the desktop would be amazing for comparative price and performance as well as portability.
The handful of reviews I saw of the 16 didn't comment on the hinge. I picked up the original after the hinge/lid refresh, and its hinges are still a little floppy when picking up the laptop. Would really appreciate if you have any notes on the hinge sturdiness of the 16 when you get it in your hands. 😊
Performance per weight or performance per volume would be some interesting metric to look at if we want to bridge the comparison between laptop and desktop.
You could force the PC to use a notebook equivalent TDP ... that would be fun and interesting. You can use Universal x86 Tuning Utility for the CPU and MSI Afterburner for the GPU.
Looking forward to this
Awesome video
16 dollar!! I' m sold! lol
😂😂😂
Would love for you to include Linux Mint in your FW16 Linux distro comparison (and would also love a discussion of how much using the latest kernel version [i.e. 6.5] makes a difference from stability and battery life perspectives)
This PC will definitely outperform the FW16 laptop. Not sure if I've missed the point of this comparison?
Thanks for bringing us so much Frameworj content, CJ!!
Ohh I can't wait 😍
I'm really interested to see which kim of RAM might be best for the system
Yeah, the Framework is not cheap, but, EXTREMELY configurable, repairable and upgradeable compared to, well, just about every other non-desktop.
So more freedom configuring it, you can upgrade later, repair it, largely yourself if not completely, and evade ridiculous Apple tax on memory and storage pricing.
I also wouldn't want the Apple OS, but some people would.
Funny, with phones, i am the exact opposite, still hate the Apple tax, but i hate Android with a passion, and my Apple phones all last way longer than basically any Android phone.
It'd be cool to compare the framework 13 remotely controlling a desktop (that fits in the remaining budget) vs the 16
I am using a DIY Desktop and a Framework 13 combo. In your instance, I feel you are paying for the Nvidia tax though. Considering how bad was Meteor Lake, I am hoping for a better Intel mainboard in the future, though probably after the Royal Core for my desktop if it is any good.
I'm getting to a point where I want to build a sub 5L mini itx with occulink instead of internal gpu. The framework becomes competitive when a occulink module is made. The radeon 7700s is nowhere near enough
Like maybe an Occulink interface could come in the empty $99 expansion bay rather than just a couple fans?
@@ElevatedSystems absolutely, I can't imagine it would be hard to design a framework interconnect to occulink pcb. It may or may not need a redriver depending on the FW mainboards capabilites and cable length. Even better would be a 4x/4x bifurcation. Have 4 gen4 lanes go to a ssd and the remaining 4 to the egpu. 4 lanes will be enough for now but 8 maybe needed for next gen gpus
Enjoying your content since you're first framework video.
I have a project for you. The 13" for whatever reason still has no hardshell case. I lack the skill,time and equipment to 3D print one.
So would you take on the challenge? :)
Price is a good move!
With the caveat that I don't know if you have a working one after the previous problems, would you be willing to test if you can run an OS off the 1 TB expansion card without it overheating (or having other problems)? In my 13 the 1 TB card overheats if I do anyhing that causes the fans to kick in.
I've tried to run Linux operating systems on my 13 from the 1 TB card and even with the thermal pad fix the card overheats and there are problems. I'll be testing the 1 TB card in the 16 to see if it can hold and run my Steam game library.
Can you use phone chargers to charge this laptop in a pinch? I know HP Zbook Studio G8 for example is pretty picky about what USB-C power sources you can actually use. None of the USB-C chargers I already have work at all.
I've done it with my 80W phone charger
@@willm5032 I'm wondering more like 5W or 20W chargers. Not useful when actually using laptop, but useful for slow charge overnight.
Thank you for mentioning that Framework laptops are modular and repairable first, upgradeable after. I feel like all the other reviews missed that nuance. And by overstating the upgradeability part, they might've turned off people who aren't interested in it or don't trust it.
For anyone curious, I'd say that the repairability comes first is because unless you really screw it up by not taking care of it, or have really unfortunate accidents, you are basically guaranteed you can use this laptop for 10 years. Yes, 10 years. Yes, with no upgrades. Yes, including if Framework goes bust NOW.
Ok, many people would ask "why TF would I want to use it for 10 years ? I usually upgrade to a new laptop every 4 years or so, no way I'm gonna use this way outdated crap in 10 years". Here's the thing: you don't have to use it yourself! After you decide you want "the new specs", you have the option of
a) using it for a home server or NAS
b) giving it away to a relative (quite common in Eastern Europe, I know it varies from culture to culture) or
c) sell it, to subsidize the cost for the new one. This last part is important, because unlike other laptops (except maybe old Thinkpads) because this will be known to be very reliable, you will be able to sell it at a decent price. Of course, there's also option
d) sell just the GPU or mobo + CPU and buy the upgrade at a lower price than a laptop with that spec.
With options c) and d) above, you basically recover a bit of the high upfront cost. Also, on the upgradeability part, the fact that you can do it in parts is also a bonus, maybe you don't have the money for a full new laptop, and maybe you don't even need a lot of the upgrades or changes. Framework gives you options, which are hard to quantify or put a $ value to them, but it's clearly a plus that few go into detail.
One minor thing to mention, since few care - this is clearly the laptop with the lowest waste factor.
it will be known to be reliable? when the current batches are basically beta?
is the low waste claim inclusive of production waste? Is, for example, a huge company like Lenovo able to have less waste in production than framework, or do they all use the same suppliers and factories in China anyway?
@@ajasen The reliable part comes mostly from the repairability. If it doesn't have something massively badly designed, it should be repairable/upgradeable.
For example, Framework 13 had a design flaw where some battery, I think it was actually the CMOS battery, was powered from the main battery. I really can't remember properly the details. The thing is that if you leave the laptop off for several months, that battery can drain and it make the laptop unbootable. Which means you have to manually power that battery first, the power the laptop and from then on the battery can refill itself. They addressed the issue in a later revision, but for those that already bought it, they posted a guide on how to implement a permanent fix. Not the absolute best situation, but it does show their commitment to making things work. There's also a community building which can help with these kind of issues.
Regarding waste - I do remember they had some run with cheaper laptops that were mostly production units that had something minor botched. So instead of throwing them away they sold it at a discount.
I don't have a figure for what their production waste is, how optimized their process is. I know that they make and assemble a good bunch of their stuff in Taiwan. Since they're kind of new, I assume they don't have this perfected.
Also, on the waste part, I mostly said that they're much better there, simply because they allow reusability and repurposing of each component, in a very easy manner. Like getting a new mobo+CPU, but still keeping the chassis and the keyboard. Or the other way around, the old mobo + CPU can be put into a minimal enclosure and turned into a home server/NAS. In both cases, you have one and a half laptops, and all components are still in use. Of course, this is a very optimistic scenario, but it's the ability to have it that matters.
How does a Framework 16 with top GPU compare to a 13 with egpu?
I think the framework laptops are insanely cool as enthusiast devices, but its very hard to make a case for their value proposition as it stands. If i buy a framework 16 then upgrade it in a couple years, youve probably paid as much as two similarly speced laptops or a laptop and a desktop, but only have one functional device at the end of it. You're also going to be stuck with the framework chassis for the foreseeable future, which i dont personally find that appealing relative to other devices.
I really think we would need to see some form of standardization of conponents for upgradable laptops for the market to become competitive, but that seems unlikely at the minute. If other brands were releasing laptops with compatible motherboards or gpus, users would have additional upgrade paths and the competition could drive prices lower - but i dont think theres any incentive for either party to do this.
Being "stuck with the chassis" just means being upgradable. That increases the value proposition rather than decreasing it. If you buy a different laptop and it becomes too slow for your use case then you're forced to buy an entirely new laptop at full price. If the Framework's GPU is too slow for you in the future then just buy a new GPU for a price much lower than an entirely new laptop from a different company.
As far as upgrading it in the future goes, if you ever end up upgrading the CPU then because those are inbuilt to the motherboard, you're left with a complete motherboard with a CPU. All you'd need to make that into a fully functional computer is RAM, storage, and a screen. Coolermaster already makes a keyboard/case for the Framework 13 motherboards, so those who already upgraded their Intel Framework 13 laptops to AMD have the option of turning their old Intel chips into fully functional computers. I'd imagine similar options for Framework 16 motherboards in the future, and if no company makes it you can just 3D print a case yourself as Framework provides all of the specifications required to do so.
@@LawlessNate It only increases the value proposition if the original device and upgrades are competitively priced. As it stands, you pay so much more upfront and upgrades aren't going to be cheap (based on past 13" pricing), so the value proposition of upgrading versus buying new just isn't there - especially since it will likely be much easier to sell on a full laptop than individual components to recoup cost.
Yes, you could buy a new screen, case, etc.. for your old board - but guess what, that means that to upgrade you've basically bought an entire new laptop's worth of parts anyway.
The main reason for my "stuck with the chassis" comment wasn't even really about value - I just think it's ugly. In a couple years time, things like the large bezels, smallish trackpad, meh keyboard, etc would be some of the first things I'd want to upgrade. To justify keeping that chassis, it needs to be desirable at least now, but it's almost objectively worse than almost every laptop it's competing with.
We can also mention that if you buy a laptop for the same price now, at least in GPU perf, it will be so much faster that it's unlikely you'll need to upgrade as soon. You're also taking a huge risk in hoping framework will continue to support it, and get access to better components - which is never a certainty.
I have a similar line of thought, even if it's expensive for now, and the fact that they don't even offer any option to sell it to my country, I'd still buy it if it wasnt because unlike in smartphones, in computers, thinner bezels are just better as long as they are strong enough (and too big ones are ugly), also the fact that I hate sharp angles in metal chassis (specially in the lower interior where my palm would rest when on the go).
If they fixed those 2 things at least, I'd gladly pay the "early buyer markup" without hesitation.
@@supersnail5000 On the framework chassis part. This can be a big positive too, and not just the chassis. If you, say, find a keyboard that's juuust perfect for you, well, upgrading the laptop instead of buying a new one - no need to worry about how the keyboard on the new laptop is. Which is almost guaranteed to not be the same, even if it's the same model of the laptop. Same for the display (maybe you reaaally like that miniLED glossy 3.5K one and don't want to change it), speakers, touchpad, webcam. Not to mention more esoteric stuff, like a keyboard with trackpoint.
With Framework once you found a perfect component in a category, you can upgrade the laptop specs without worry that the new laptop will be a regression in that category.
So, I think you get the idea, and I think you also agree with the idea, just not the execution. At least for now.
Framework gives you lots and lots of options. By far the most. But so far, most of them are in theory. 2nd/extra battery module instead of GPU module, excellent for travels ? Will come later. Keyboard with trackpoint ? Will probably come later. A specific display or keyboard or trackpad ? Will probably come later. High end GPU for the GPU module ? Probably next year, the earliest. There's a lot of "later" and "maybe"s, unfortunately.
But, the assuring thing is that the ecosystem is open so those "later"s and "maybe"s can be fulfilled by the community, it doesn't have to be Framework themselves. Except maybe for the GPU modules and surely for the motherboards. I mean, those can theoretically be made by other companies or the community too, but that's a gigantic amount of effort that realistically will never be done. Though you never know, maybe mods that can use Clevo motherboards or something from other specific laptops to be adapted to work inside the Framework chassis will appear.
Oh, and one thing I absolutely love about the Framework laptops are those I/O modules. No need for dongles! Excellent for carrying in a bag and not worry about tangling or having a cable be bent too much. Not to mention how easy is to "move" a port like HDMI from one side to the other. Absolutely brilliant!
I think it's the same thing as the cost of cheap clothes that don't fit, don't last, made to be disposable and going in the landfill at obnoxious rates. VS high quality custom made clothes that are made of high quality natural fibers and tailored to your fit. The cost is more expensive but it will hopefully last a long time, need less and benefit in the long for the environment AKA all of us living on earth with finite resources. In the long run it's worth to invest in. But we have the mentality of only wanting to pay as cheap as possible. Someone pay the price somewhere. With clothes it's the slave labors and the planet and future generations. With Electronics it's clearly a lot of trash we are manufacturing and big companies clearly do not care of improving the situation. 🫤 It as similar consequences. If a person can afford a disposable 1800$ laptop every 2-3 years they prob can afford a 2k every 10years or resale and buy the newest. I'm not talking about a person with a 150$ budget but this laptop is clearly better than what you can get for that...I hope, at least on paper it is 😂
Please include the weight of the 16. I recently bought a used gaming laptop for really cheap, primarily for retro gaming and Linux use, and it's incredibly heavy. It weighs ten pounds alone.
As per Framework's website, with a GPU the Framework 16 weighs about 5.3lbs, while without a GPU it weighs about 4.6lbs. As a side note, the Steam Deck taught me that I don't really need that much horsepower to play the kind of games I like (Indie and older AAA stuff); with that in mind I bought a Framework 13 with a 7840u. It weighs only 2.85lbs.
Mini nitpick, but I would've kept the original air cooler... But that's a me thing, I am not a fan of AIOs ^^;
Great video, giving me more reasons to buy a FW16 decked out B)
So as a Linux user myself and knowing that you like to at least tinker with the penguin system, I personally would not have gone for the Nvidia card. I have had mixed experiences and recently removed my 3070 for an rx 7800xt because I was having a repeated issues with the Nvidia drivers. You could have saved some money by going AMD on the graphics card, but ultimately the wonderful thing about upgradable systems is that you have the right to buy what some people would consider suboptimal parts
I’ll be using this for 3D design and rendering using programs like 3DS Max, Maya and Vray. These suites are specifically designed for Cuda and Nvidia graphics.
I would love to discuss replacing the FW16 kbd with a custom low %. Like a Corne (40%) or Planck/split Planck. (45%)
I have built my custom kbds but I don't think I have the chops to build this. I expect a need for custom pcbs and such.
hey are the bottom fans normal 25mm thick fans?
No, they are Arctic P12 Slim fans, link is in description.
Still weird to not see pin holes on an AMD motherboard...
Your missing the UPS. A laptop can run on battery while the desktop is useless if the power goes out unless you have a UPS. Now do you do a battery capacity match or a on battery runtime match?
I have a whole home UPS.
Is that factored into the price of the desktop then?
I mean, you lost mobility, but gained performance 🤷🏼♀️both have it's place
First!