Longbow vs Crossbow [AoE2]

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  • čas přidán 9. 06. 2024
  • Comparison between Longbowmen and Crossbows/Arbalests in Age of Empires 2. We'll see how they match up in Castle and Imperial age.
    1:00 Cost and training time
    1:45 Castle Age stats comparison
    2:20 Castle Age accuracy
    2:50 Castle Age damage over time analysis
    3:50 Castle Age vs Pikemen and Elite Skirmishers
    4:54 Imperial Age stats and cost comparison
    6:15 Imperial Age accuracy
    6:30 Imperial Age damage over time analysis
    6:50 Imperial Age vs Paladins and Elite Skirmishers
    7:20 My thoughts: Longbows or Arbalests?
    Patreon: / spiritofthelaw
    Full intro song: • Spirit of the Law Chan...
    Background music from Epidemic Sound: www.epidemicsound.com
    Game: Age of Empires 2 Definitive Edition, with Forgotten Empires, African Kingdoms, Rise the Rajas, and Last Khans expansions
  • Hry

Komentáře • 569

  • @SandyofCthulhu
    @SandyofCthulhu Před 3 lety +928

    The longbow was the very first civ-unique unit we made for AoE2. For several months every civ had longbows, even though we knew eventually it would only be English. So I guess on the bright side it got the most playtesting of any unique unit. If we got it wrong, blame me personally.

    • @manuam98
      @manuam98 Před 3 lety +133

      Thanks for your work man, I've been playing your games all of my life

    • @joshuakehlet8269
      @joshuakehlet8269 Před 2 lety +28

      Love this comment

    • @genericpersonx333
      @genericpersonx333 Před 2 lety +15

      Out of curiosity, MR. Petersen, when determining what the initial values to assign a new unit, did you look to a statistician like SOTL to give you an estimate of the best probable value to achieve the desired effect in game, or did your people generally use their intuition when picking the numbers? Put another way, if you wanted to make an anti-archer infantry unit, was Person X asked to create some statistical tables to suggest that the pierce armor should start at a value of 6, or did Person Y say since it should resist archer fire, let's start with a very high number, like 8, and see if that is too much or too little after a few dozen games?

    • @adamburditt3941
      @adamburditt3941 Před 2 lety +15

      When I was a kid, I would make massive longbow armies and rain arrows over everyone. Thanks for helping make my childhood

    • @atocanboi409
      @atocanboi409 Před 2 lety +15

      AoE 2: has a slight problem
      Sandy of Cthulhu: *"I will take that personally..."*

  • @BinnyNair
    @BinnyNair Před 3 lety +1111

    If you want to train a longbowman, start with his grandfather.
    -King Edward III.

    • @MrBigCookieCrumble
      @MrBigCookieCrumble Před 3 lety +227

      That's a pretty sweet quote! - Abraham Lincoln

    • @joshuaburnett7643
      @joshuaburnett7643 Před 3 lety +286

      @@MrBigCookieCrumble There's no way Abraham Lincoln said that, stop getting your quotes from the internet- Julius Caesar

    • @juanfisi
      @juanfisi Před 3 lety +159

      @@joshuaburnett7643 If i wasn't dead, I would be alive. - Naopelon.

    • @stalinbulldog
      @stalinbulldog Před 3 lety +48

      That napoleon quote seems legit tbh.

    • @juanfisi
      @juanfisi Před 3 lety +16

      @@stalinbulldog Thats cuz its true!

  • @gluteusmaximus8881
    @gluteusmaximus8881 Před 3 lety +564

    You know what I really love about Age of Empires 2?
    That the Aztecs get Arbalest, but the Spanish can't even upgrade their Archers.

    • @dontspikemydrink9382
      @dontspikemydrink9382 Před 3 lety +111

      Or that all american civs get eagle warriors and siege and western navies

    • @nvmtt1403
      @nvmtt1403 Před 3 lety +104

      @@dontspikemydrink9382 or iron for that matter. they shouldnt even have blacksmith techs.

    • @dontspikemydrink9382
      @dontspikemydrink9382 Před 3 lety +25

      @@nvmtt1403 i wish they had counterparts

    • @ad3z10
      @ad3z10 Před 3 lety +63

      @Nonna Urbisness Last time they tried to fix that they made Chinese monks busted.

    • @p.jakub88
      @p.jakub88 Před 3 lety +12

      Well, you could fix that by modding. I did that
      i.e. by adding gunpowder units to the Chinese or Fire Ships only to Byzantines. I think, that the most annoying innacurracies were in the Conquerors expansion (regarding some units of New World civilizations like Aztecs).

  • @jamesf3871
    @jamesf3871 Před 3 lety +546

    Interestingly, your suggestion of crossbows at first transitioning into longbows later is exactly how England handled it historically. King Richard the Lionheart was a crossbow enthusiast, and made sure to heavily incorporate it in his army during the Third Crusade, which should roughly correspond to the Castle Age.
    It was only after England conquered Wales in the 13th century that longbows began to see widespread use in English armies, championed by later kings like Edward I and Edward III. Longbowmen would go on to help the English win most late medieval “set piece” battles like Falkirk, Crecy, and Agincourt. To me, that time would be roughly analogous to the Imperial Age.

    • @ChocolateMilkCultLeader
      @ChocolateMilkCultLeader Před 3 lety +32

      I think Imp comes in later, with Rennaisance. But thanks for sharing, that is really cool

    • @Alche_mist
      @Alche_mist Před 3 lety +31

      You can't even compare the in-game ages, with some civs (Aztecs, Incas, Burmese...) meeting Europeans later than some others civs (Celts, Goths, Byzantines...) being obsolete and far superseded, nearly culturally extinct.

    • @GepardenK
      @GepardenK Před 3 lety +90

      @@ChocolateMilkCultLeader To be fair ages in AoE are just as much about representing infrastructural development as it is about representing tech epochs. So for example Constantinople would, by AoE standards, be in Castle Age or even Imperial Age for pretty much Byzantine's entire existence - while at the same time some Eastern Roman outskirt town a few miles from Constantinople would probably be considered Feudal Age even towards the very end of the empire.

    • @dylan__dog
      @dylan__dog Před 3 lety +31

      @@ChocolateMilkCultLeader bows were still widely used even after gunpowder weapons became widespread ie during the renaissance
      Guns can't fire over walls, cost more and early smoothbore guns are ridiculously innacurate (not that it really mattered since both are used for massed fire primarily) + there was a bunch of people already trained to use bows

    • @jamesf3871
      @jamesf3871 Před 3 lety +25

      @@GepardenK Very well put! Each civ would also have its own “age curve”. The Imperial Age for the Goths would be ca. 600 A.D., while for the Spanish it would be ca. 1492.

  • @ivanbayuk
    @ivanbayuk Před 3 lety +691

    Never played the game,but have been watching for a year,good stuff.

    • @atheismisamentaldisorder1839
      @atheismisamentaldisorder1839 Před 3 lety +68

      This is the game that changed me from console gaming to PC gaming back in the late 90s

    • @icecoldchilipreppers6496
      @icecoldchilipreppers6496 Před 3 lety +87

      Wow, you should play it dude. Most rewarding game to improve with.
      And one of the more relaxing games when not pressuring oneself

    • @TheLeaderofNoone
      @TheLeaderofNoone Před 3 lety +13

      Wait that's weird

    • @PeferG17
      @PeferG17 Před 3 lety +21

      Dude get it! I'm terrible at this game, and have been since the original AOE2... but I still love it... hours and hours of fun

    • @Asdgamer203
      @Asdgamer203 Před 3 lety +2

      @@prod.bronze I would say it is better to buy the game. For long term it will be more expensive when you pay per month. 20€ for the game and much less in e.g. steam sales are the better way, in my opinion.

  • @Markyboy13
    @Markyboy13 Před 3 lety +285

    I feel a Britions Civ Overview Remake is coming!

    • @dontspikemydrink9382
      @dontspikemydrink9382 Před 3 lety +16

      It kind of misses the mark, retroactively

    • @JJBeauregard1
      @JJBeauregard1 Před 3 lety +1

      Yes please!

    • @anhdunghisinh
      @anhdunghisinh Před 3 lety +14

      really there are some off the chart information cuz civ bonus updates recently, we need some new overview for old civs.

    • @erroren6814
      @erroren6814 Před 3 lety +1

      I hope so...
      #MJinnocent #FreeBritney

    • @oscarf2840
      @oscarf2840 Před 3 lety

      yes this civ need a remake

  • @TheZombifiedGuy
    @TheZombifiedGuy Před 3 lety +81

    Despite their theoretical maximum range, longbows actually were at their most dangerous up close because you could shoot more accurately and have the best chance of piercing vulnerable spots in armor (joints, visors, etc.), since arrows lose penetration pretty quickly over longer ranges. It's a common misconception that longbows and bodkin arrows shredded armored knights and men-at-arms well before they could reach melee range. Their main value was in killing mounts, the psychological impact of being constantly peppered with arrows without being able to retaliate, and breaking up/channeling the enemy's formation as they had to move over dead soldiers and horses and stick together to protect themselves from the arrows (which, again, got deadlier the closer you were). The English used longbows strategically to demoralize and control their opponents before their men-at-arms could engage a now tired, angry enemy in melee, which is generally where the most casualties were inflicted. Though once that melee was joined longbows could still be quite dangerous, since the English usually positioned them on the flanks protected by stakes, giving them the opportunity to fire into the vulnerable sides of the enemy infantry while the stakes warded off cavalry.

    • @tamaskosa3283
      @tamaskosa3283 Před 3 lety +8

      Not to mention that most troops were lightly armored. Against them the longbow was very dangerous even at a long range

    • @TheZombifiedGuy
      @TheZombifiedGuy Před 3 lety +18

      @@tamaskosa3283 Depends on the time and place. During the Hundred Years War, particularly towards the end, even the average French soldier was fairly well armored. The quality varied somewhat but unless an arrow found a joint you were probably fine anywhere beyond medium range. But on the occasions the French or their allies fielded lightly-armored skirmishers, longbowmen tore through them. Which is kind of ironic given that skirmishers are the standard counter to archers in AoE II :P

    • @TheZombifiedGuy
      @TheZombifiedGuy Před 3 lety +4

      @JoeRingo118 Very true, yes.

  • @togafu3681
    @togafu3681 Před 3 lety +39

    I love how the intro is not only still being kept, but still updated to keep up with the changes, such as the inclusion of the flaming camels. Always love the top notch quality, in-depth analysis and with sense of humor SOTL!

  • @LieutenantBromhead
    @LieutenantBromhead Před 3 lety +116

    To add a little extra context to the statement at the start - the real difficulty with the longbow isn't aiming it, getting your eye in for any bow (if you know how to shoot) takes at best an afternoon when you've had enough practice to reliably hit a target butt at distance. More than a crossbow but certainly not years to learn how to shoot accurately (especially with regular practice). It's possible to get reasonable and reliable accuracy with a historical bow much more quickly than people think. The real difficulty is the draw weight, which we believe thanks to finds from the Mary Rose could reach up to 150lbs or greater - the physical training to handle that being what takes as much time as the years Spirit mentions (if the bows were made weaker, they'd be much easier to draw BUT would lose their efficacy against armoured enemies and their deadly long range).
    To visualise that, imagine trying to lift a 150lbs man up off the floor by just his belt using only your middle three fingers, and your left hand against the floor to steady yourself. The real art of professional longbow soldiers was not only their accuracy thanks to regular practice every Sunday but their capability to deal with the immense draw weight of their bow without tiring, while maintaining a high ROF. Some longbowman skeletons we've uncovered have been notably deformed, with the left arm and shoulder being considerably enlarged.

    • @TheGreySpectrum
      @TheGreySpectrum Před 3 lety +21

      Thank god someone brought this up. I'm tired of that ancient meme of "It takes years to master a bow", peddled by people that have no experience with bows, crossbows, or firearms. It's on par with the myths that knights had to be lifted onto their horses with cranes, and that European swords were blunt instruments more than actual blades.

    • @a6s3
      @a6s3 Před 3 lety +17

      and yet modern fantasy consistently portrays the longbow as a weapon for noodle limbed elves. Makes me laugh.

    • @LieutenantBromhead
      @LieutenantBromhead Před 3 lety +29

      @@a6s3 - entirely possible. The longbow we're referring to in this context is, more accurately, the Warbow or English Warbow. The term 'longbow' refers to any long self bow (I.E. a bow made from a single piece of wood, unlike a composite bow).
      Long self bows have been in use since the bow was conceived, primarily for hunting - some famous examples exist from Nydam Mose dated to the late antiquity, with lovely decorative patterns on them.
      These bows have no need to reach the penetrative power of a Warbow, so are more likely weighted to around 30 to 45lbs rather than the whopping 120+ of the Warbow. Deer take much less power to kill than an armoured man, you rarely have the luxury of being able to stand up straight in ideal shooting position when hunting and you may need to hold your draw for a short period - all of these contribute to make a self bow with a relatively low draw weight.
      It's conceivable that spindly woodland elves therefore are using longbows, albeit ones with a much lower draw weight than the historical English Warbow - add in the usual fantasy tropes of magical powers and materials far superior to real world versions and you've got a logical explanation behind how a spindly elf can draw and shoot a longbow and kill an armoured human with one. It's nowhere near as powerful as a real world one, but "because magic" it doesn't need to be (and you can add the magic to the arrows so you still have the realism of a low draw weight bow for captain noodle arms).

    • @pickleinspector5948
      @pickleinspector5948 Před 3 lety +3

      Bruh with all these coomers these days, everone has got 1 big arm

    • @madelinemccaul8209
      @madelinemccaul8209 Před 3 lety +6

      @@TheGreySpectrum "mastering a bow" isn't about learning to land your shot where you're aiming, it's about being able to put reasonably accurate shots downrange as rapidly as possible. It's exactly the same training purpose as later musket drills; refining the actions of aiming, firing, reloading, and repeat until the shooter can do them as fluidly as possible. That's the part that takes extensive practice, and it's been documented with most elite foot archer cultures throughout history, not just the English.

  • @jf9229
    @jf9229 Před 3 lety +175

    longbowmen look cooler - case closed!

    • @user-oo3oi9ki2j
      @user-oo3oi9ki2j Před 3 lety +1

      @Nonna Urbisness Same hahaha, I used to hate Trebuchets while I was still a massive noob and more or less just roleplaying XD

    • @KamleshMallick
      @KamleshMallick Před 3 lety

      Oh they look spectacular
      Firing arrows above trees is why you should always go for longbows!

    • @prabhureubenthomas6052
      @prabhureubenthomas6052 Před 3 lety +1

      @@user-oo3oi9ki2j i still hate trebs.. i just get bombard cannons

  • @jemma2607
    @jemma2607 Před 3 lety +12

    I love how you speak so clearly than even I, a non-English speaker, can understand pretty much everything.

  • @lotussy7698
    @lotussy7698 Před 3 lety +44

    never thought i hear sotl say "the exact numbers arent important" :D

  • @pete26196
    @pete26196 Před 3 lety +85

    There is actually one very important case for using Longbows in castle age - and that is vs Mangonels - another common counter unit.
    The extra attack for longbow (6 base + 2 from bodkin - 6 pierce armour on mangonel) is the break point to deal 2 damage per arrow instead of 1 which is of course a huge deal and makes them much safer to snipe.

    • @jefffinkbonner9551
      @jefffinkbonner9551 Před 3 lety +12

      Sweats in Gaelic

    • @Tocaraca
      @Tocaraca Před 3 lety +10

      I feel like this is most important on Arena where Mangonels are more common than, let's say, Elite Skirmishers

    • @alfalfajuan8184
      @alfalfajuan8184 Před 3 lety

      the thing is, british arbalests also outrange mangonels and onagers

    • @markanon8914
      @markanon8914 Před 3 lety +7

      @@alfalfajuan8184 But the comment said damage, not range

    • @astrid2432
      @astrid2432 Před 2 lety +3

      @@markanon8914 and it was in the castle age too

  • @howdoichangemyusername
    @howdoichangemyusername Před 3 lety +63

    You forgot a detail: Longbowmen have little shields on their left bumcheek, giving them extra armor while they're running away from their enemies. Or at least, they should.

    • @epicboomshine6595
      @epicboomshine6595 Před 2 lety +2

      Explains how Shrek got an arrow in the ass. Quite cheeky of that merry man.

  • @twohandedswordsman852
    @twohandedswordsman852 Před 3 lety +262

    *Ev'ry English longbows gangsta until the French knights cut their middle fingers.*

    • @SM-bb4hx
      @SM-bb4hx Před 3 lety +33

      What happened to your profile picture? Did Rattan Archer forced you to change it?

    • @cpt-swampy-07
      @cpt-swampy-07 Před 3 lety +11

      Longbows: *'EVIL LAUGHS'*

    • @423985728945
      @423985728945 Před 3 lety +12

      ah, the Franks with their paladins running over all those archers.... the memories...

    • @LegioXXI
      @LegioXXI Před 3 lety +36

      @@SM-bb4hx At least my picture is still accurate.

    • @peterpeterson4800
      @peterpeterson4800 Před 3 lety +12

      @@423985728945 Remeber the battle of Agincourt?

  • @flaviusaetiuspt
    @flaviusaetiuspt Před 3 lety +156

    What about the synergies between that Sarracen team bonus and Briton's archers for the potential to snipe castles?

    • @kherossilverlight8400
      @kherossilverlight8400 Před 3 lety +144

      Yeah with longbowmen and sarracen allies you only need half of forever to snipe a castle.

    • @dimartinable
      @dimartinable Před 3 lety +36

      Would it really be a snipe? More of a power play

    • @catrielmarignaclionti4518
      @catrielmarignaclionti4518 Před 3 lety +17

      @@kherossilverlight8400 ??? 40 longbowmen wreck a castle in no time, give it a try.

    • @SH4D0WBattousai
      @SH4D0WBattousai Před 3 lety +11

      it'd still take way too long. Even mayan arbs take a while in taking down a castle.

    • @Cra3ier
      @Cra3ier Před 3 lety +9

      Octavio Alatorre albs will be dead when attacking castles

  • @andrewpowell2730
    @andrewpowell2730 Před 3 lety +4

    Was always a fan of Age of Mythology and never got too into AoE. However, the numbers, stats, and calm voice are perfect for falling asleep at night. 10/10 channel.

  • @letswaveabook3183
    @letswaveabook3183 Před 3 lety +9

    If you go for a fast castle (like on arena), then you don´t have the issue that you will have the archery range automatically. So in that case, we compare an fc with a blacksmith, barracks and archery range against an fc with blacksmith, market and castle. Not only the second option saves 175 wood, but it also saves you doing the crossbow upgrade (125F,75G) and you will be able to use the market. In that scenario, I think the longbows are the better option. Another major advantage of the longbow is that it deals twice as much damage to mangonels if you have bodkin arrow.
    Also in late game, the extra range and extra pierce armor are useful against skirmishers. The extra range allows the longbows to stay further from the frontline, thus being safer. Since their main treat in trash games are opposing skirmishers, the extra pierce armor is also nice. I think Britons are excellent against opposing trash units as long as you can (micro)manage 20 (or more) longbows to deal damage from a safe distance and keep them alive while you spam trash units in front.

  • @mafiousbj
    @mafiousbj Před 3 lety +9

    You forgot to factor in that Longbows look cooler 😏
    Joking aside, range is one of the hardest stats to quantify (looking at you Magyar HCA) but you did great work trying to factor it here

  • @danikahicks2210
    @danikahicks2210 Před 3 lety +3

    Hey. So im pretty sure I haven't said this before, but thank you for using the longer version of your opening song; it is hella good.
    ~♡

  • @Weirdude777
    @Weirdude777 Před 3 lety +26

    Last time I was this early I had yet to find my sheep!

    • @LutherannoG
      @LutherannoG Před 3 lety +7

      I think red scout took your sheep

  • @mrbunnyhop123
    @mrbunnyhop123 Před 3 lety +5

    The Britons are my favorite Civ to play in AOE. I always looked up to my dad who was able to play them so well!

  • @basilbaby2069
    @basilbaby2069 Před 3 lety +9

    Making a castle to create unique units is expensive,but this castle can either provide defence or a castle rush, giving extra value.

    • @MrSamulai
      @MrSamulai Před 3 lety +2

      You can't spam castles to train 20 longbowman at once like you could with crossbowmen, I think was the point.

    • @Robert-vk7je
      @Robert-vk7je Před 3 lety

      It can even provide comedic value, when it gets denied at 99%.

    • @rubywest5166
      @rubywest5166 Před 2 lety

      You also can’t start amassing an army of longbowmen in Feudal age (either to fight off attackers or prepare for an early castle age attack), and have to wait for the castle. Also stone’s a very limited use resource, so if you find yourself under attack it’s harder to pivot to unit production.
      Meanwhile your archery ranges can just pump out archers in advance, research a quick tech and boom, crossbow army (or something else if needed, like using gold for knights/monks, and wood for spears/pikes)
      You can start transitioning to longbows by late castle if you like given you don’t need any specific techs for them, but in castle age they’re just not enough of an advantage over crossbows to demand an early castle

  • @Vclee0
    @Vclee0 Před 3 lety +44

    ah, my favorite aoe 2 youtuber: T-West Of The Law

    • @orhunkars9017
      @orhunkars9017 Před 3 lety +2

      Greatests of all time

    • @hallamhal
      @hallamhal Před 3 lety +6

      My favourite is T90-West of the Law

    • @DuringDark
      @DuringDark Před 3 lety +1

      @@hallamhal DauT90-West of the MbLaw AoC - Age of Empires

    • @Robert-vk7je
      @Robert-vk7je Před 3 lety

      What about Lowko and Winter?.. Oh.. Wrong game. x)

  • @Alles_Ratten
    @Alles_Ratten Před 3 lety +11

    You need to build 18 crossbows on each archery range to have any wood advantage over longbowmen though. So for me the advantage in castle age is not so much in less wood cost but rather the handiness from transitioning my archers into crossbowmen.
    And of course easier access to multiple ranges over multiple castles and the better accuracy ;)
    Nice video nonetheless!

  • @krankarvolund7771
    @krankarvolund7771 Před 3 lety +31

    I remember when I was a kid, I trained longbowmen in mass to tae down castles XD
    It works against the AI :D

    • @Knuckles2761
      @Knuckles2761 Před 3 lety +4

      When I was a kid my PC start lagging from mass longbowmen (100+), especially when they shot. And freeze for a second after mass Cho-ko-nu's barrage.

    • @edwardteach3000
      @edwardteach3000 Před 3 lety

      @@Knuckles2761 hmm, been there. So satisfying.

    • @hugh.g.rection5906
      @hugh.g.rection5906 Před 2 lety

      i would end up in the situation where its trash units v trash units most of the time and just decide to send in a legion of shelby cobras to clear things up lol

  • @LordVilmore
    @LordVilmore Před 3 lety +44

    Last time I had this early I tried to make some villagers before I realized I was maya's and have to do loom first.

    • @nvmtt1403
      @nvmtt1403 Před 3 lety

      explanation please?

    • @leandrososacastillo7856
      @leandrososacastillo7856 Před 3 lety +2

      You should Say mayas

    • @GameFail96
      @GameFail96 Před 3 lety +14

      @@nvmtt1403 Mayans start with an extra villager, which means you are housed at the start of the game. So while your villagers build houses you research loom to minimize tc idle time

    • @jefffinkbonner9551
      @jefffinkbonner9551 Před 3 lety +2

      Huns don’t need to build houses.

    • @Legionofloom242
      @Legionofloom242 Před 3 lety

      mmmmmh, loom

  • @Mastersteve020
    @Mastersteve020 Před 3 lety

    Great Video Spirit! Thanks for getting me back into Age of Empires.

  • @fizz7941
    @fizz7941 Před 3 lety +3

    This is the video I was looking for a long time...

  • @Sev826
    @Sev826 Před 3 lety

    hi, im in awe of the quality of this channel, goodjob

  • @NeviTheLettyFan
    @NeviTheLettyFan Před 3 lety

    Can't get enough of the intro even after all these years

  • @hagensauer1204
    @hagensauer1204 Před 3 lety

    I have just read the title and i am alreasy excited! :)

  • @samukis272
    @samukis272 Před 3 lety +9

    When considering the elite longbow, you have to factor in that you need to make *110 of them before they pay back the 550 extra gold from the upgrade cost*. So, only if its's a super long post-imp grind are they worth it.

    • @jomiles3605
      @jomiles3605 Před 3 lety +1

      I feel like post imp grinding usually takes awhile

    • @The-jy3yq
      @The-jy3yq Před 2 lety +1

      @@jomiles3605 don't stop the grind
      sigmarcher mindset

    • @Lightning_Lance
      @Lightning_Lance Před rokem

      yeah, it's more a case of if the extra range is worth the higher upgrade cost in practice

  • @MatiLuengo
    @MatiLuengo Před 3 lety

    I don't even play this game but your videos are so interesting I keep watching them

  • @Edimonde
    @Edimonde Před 3 lety +1

    I havent played AOE since i was a kid, but I still find these videos fascinating!

  • @robdaconquerer4125
    @robdaconquerer4125 Před 3 lety +51

    Longbows outrange castles! Teutons, no, I’m pretty sure they don’t.

    • @devangnivatkar2649
      @devangnivatkar2649 Před 3 lety +15

      They don't outrange Teuton Castles, Korean Keeps or Turkish Bombard Towers. All three of these buildings have 13 range.

    • @The-jy3yq
      @The-jy3yq Před 2 lety

      @@devangnivatkar2649 yeah, Turkish Bombard Towers
      like you need to outrange them, yaaahh

  • @thomaskloos6409
    @thomaskloos6409 Před 3 lety

    Played this game for ten years, now mostly just watch this. Good stuff.

  • @tacobell4660
    @tacobell4660 Před 3 lety

    Good video as always

  • @Pear_chan
    @Pear_chan Před 3 lety +3

    I think a solid buff to the Longbowmen (to make them more relevant in the Castle Age) would be to make it so their accuracy doesn't decay as the range increases. That way, though they're less accurate than Crossbows/Arbalests normally (70% vs 85%) at longer ranges they retain their accuracy. That way more thought is put into what you're building, encouraging better macro play as well as micro.

  • @Southeast_Asian_Devil
    @Southeast_Asian_Devil Před 3 lety +5

    Longbowmen + monks (for healing) = war elephants with range
    Byzantine as ally. If you haven't tried this means you haven't played AOE2 long enough

  • @Mihawk07
    @Mihawk07 Před 3 lety

    Thanks man. Keep up the good work!

  • @zainy_inc154
    @zainy_inc154 Před 3 lety

    Great video man

  • @abhishek190893
    @abhishek190893 Před 3 lety

    Thanks! I had this question in 2010. Thanks for answering this now.

  • @MaggotDiggo1
    @MaggotDiggo1 Před 3 lety +10

    The thing that has always puzzled me about the English Longbowman in AOE 2 is why are they left handed? Most other units, maybe all, are right handed which makes sense.

    • @raulzilla
      @raulzilla Před 3 lety +8

      Because most people think you hold the bow with your main hand. Even some game devs don't make the real research to know that you pull the string with your main hand.

    • @Alias_Anybody
      @Alias_Anybody Před 3 lety +5

      @@raulzilla
      I only shot self made bows and arrows (some string and local wood) as a child and even to me this is sounds like a major "duh". Of course you DRAW (by far most of the power required) with your strong arm. Other arm is aiming and counter weight.

    • @Copperhell144
      @Copperhell144 Před 2 lety

      ​@@raulzilla I'd never heard of that before. Is that really a common-place thought?
      Also, really don't think it's about making research or not when the generic Archer units actually do draw with their right hand

    • @raulzilla
      @raulzilla Před 2 lety +2

      @@Copperhell144 give a bow to a person that never even got close to one and ask them to shoot it. And don't intervene you'll see people holding with their main hand and trying to pull the string with the off hand.
      I've done this with my niece and friends.

    • @Lightning_Lance
      @Lightning_Lance Před rokem +3

      @@raulzilla ​ I made the same mistake in Guitar Hero lol

  • @TheHarimir
    @TheHarimir Před 3 lety +1

    its also worth noting that the aria coverd with longbows are significantly geater at even+1 range

  • @tomgymer7719
    @tomgymer7719 Před 3 lety +8

    Could you look into the unique tech Bagains for the Bulgarians? I'm not sure how good it makes their two handed swordsmen vs a generic fully upgraded champion, and it would be good to know the maths on it.

    • @devonbueno8344
      @devonbueno8344 Před 3 lety +3

      I agree. I see enough people thinking Bagains doesn't make up for Bulgarians missing Champion. But maybe a Spirit of the Law video showing Bagains vs. different Champion civs, Condotierri, and trash units might hopefully settle some questions about the strength of the Bulgarian Militia line.

  • @MikeEmpires
    @MikeEmpires Před 3 lety +42

    It’s nice that in history, crossbowmen have no advantage against longbowmen. Also, longbowmen were really strong men, and not quick, agile men like Legolas (even though elves are really strong).

    • @asmallchicken5836
      @asmallchicken5836 Před 3 lety +30

      The advantage for the crossbowman is that you'll have a lot more of them.
      It takes at least a decade to build up the muscle strength to shoot a war longbow in battlefield conditions (we're talking rapid fire over the duration of a battle, not just pulling it back once). Meanwhile you can pluck any peasant and give him crossbow training for a week and he'll at least have some proficiency.

    • @burningsinner1132
      @burningsinner1132 Před 3 lety +5

      @@asmallchicken5836 Not to mention that you can actually shoot crossbow in arcs, getting more range because you can't cheat your way around pure power advantage.
      Granted, you need higher quality projectiles for them to handle the stress of being shot via xbow and you get smaller rof, but this Longbowman range advantage is pure BS.
      Also, whole history of britons supports not some sort of ultra powerful archers, it's all about ultra powerful school spitting out large masses of archers.

    • @jaredrowendolas8757
      @jaredrowendolas8757 Před 3 lety +8

      @@burningsinner1132 but crossbows didn't have more power. They had higher poundages, but the longbow has a draw length of about 36/38 inches while the crossbow had maybe a third of that. This means that while longbows topped out at around a 180 pound draw weight the arrow had a much longer time for the bow to work on it while the much heavier poundages of the crossbow basically just made up for their ridiculously small draw length.

    • @burningsinner1132
      @burningsinner1132 Před 3 lety +6

      @@jaredrowendolas8757 Absolute longbow shot record: 412.82m, with custom bow.
      Absolute crossbow shot record: 621.8m with Ravin R15, which you can buy without selling your soul (Still costly though)

    • @Runenschuppe
      @Runenschuppe Před 3 lety +11

      @@burningsinner1132 You do know that none of that is applicable to HISTORICAL comparisons, right? We have access to very different materials nowadays.

  • @Joker-yw9hl
    @Joker-yw9hl Před 3 lety

    The comparison we need

  • @giovannialonso3724
    @giovannialonso3724 Před 3 lety

    Thanks for your service

  • @anthonymoua2678
    @anthonymoua2678 Před 3 lety

    Damn!!!! I love that intro song!

  • @Lightning_Lance
    @Lightning_Lance Před rokem +2

    The thing about the longbow is that it wasn't a complicated weapon. It was in fact a purposefully simple weapon. Where other bows were made from multiple materials (composite) to give it the flexibility of one material with the power of another etc., or recurved for extra power, the longbow is just a normal simple bow but BIG.
    That doesn't make it more powerful or accurate or easier to use. But it did make it almost as good as those more complicated bows, but much easier and cheaper to make, maintain, and repair. Longbows broke much less frequently than other bows and lasted longer, could sometimes work in light rain conditions, etc, because it was a simple model made of one whole material. It's the AK-47 of the medieval world: cheap and reliable.
    The downside is that if you have a BIG bow you need STRONG men to use it. Which is why they made a law to force people to train with the bow even during peace time. People weren't allowed to perform any sports other than archery in most parts of Britain iirc. They also needed the right wood from Wales to make the longbow strong enough.
    This all means the English could use MORE archers than the French or other medieval countries, and if you have more archers then the bow being less accurate doesn't matter as much either.
    tl;dr the longbow is not the most powerful or most accurate bow, but it's close enough to be compatible, and cheaper to produce and maintain. It's the assembly line bow of the medieval world. So... realistically, longbowmen should maybe be the cheaper and easier to produce option compared to arbalesters. But that wouldn't make for a good unique unit.

  • @Unknown.NotRegistered
    @Unknown.NotRegistered Před 3 lety +10

    Yeah, the Longbow irony is never lost in AOE.
    They should fire faster and be more accurate than the crossbow counterpart.

    • @thomasb.5643
      @thomasb.5643 Před 3 lety +3

      It'd be too op. Maybe they could do it but in return bump up significantly the costs of the longbow, which is historically accurate. During the 100 years war the English had these excellent decades trained archers that they could not replace when lost. Would be nice to see something like it

    • @Alias_Anybody
      @Alias_Anybody Před 3 lety +1

      @@thomasb.5643
      Yeah, that's something they got wrong in AoE3 too. It should honestly be cavalry-expensive, not slightly more expensive.

    • @hugh.g.rection5906
      @hugh.g.rection5906 Před 2 lety

      longbows with thumb ring would be too OP

    • @Lightning_Lance
      @Lightning_Lance Před rokem +1

      theoretically you can shoot bows faster, sure, but I think in a real battle endurance comes into play VERY quickly with these heavy longbows and they probably had to pace themselves a lot.
      They should also deal less damage and while they can have a longer range, the drop-off for effective damage should happen faster (but that doesn't even exist in AoE so never mind). And they should be weaker against armor. But cheaper to make than crossbowmen. But longer training time.

    • @Dukerdjerrbs
      @Dukerdjerrbs Před 2 měsíci

      ​​@@Lightning_LanceThe crossbow and longbow ain't going through plate armor regardless lol. But they can still cause chaos, and hurt a lot. Or kill lightly armored peeps. The only reason the crossbow is considered better is because you can point and pull a trigger. It's much easier to be accurate. It's not necessarily more powerful. A bow with a lower draw can still do some serious damage in comparison to a crossbow with a higher draw. Also the longbow does shoot further and is more powerful even with a lower draw than a crossbow that has a heavier draw. Bows are better, crossbows are convenient. Forget everything you learned in video games about bows and crossbows, it's all inaccurate lol. Bows and crossbows don't go through heavy armor either. So next time ya get a headshot with a bow in Skyrim on some dude that has heavy armor, just remember. He's not actually dead, but the devs couldn't break the news.

  • @Luis.Lopez96
    @Luis.Lopez96 Před 3 lety

    nice comparion and good suggestion. Next time i would like a crossbowman-genoese crosbowman comparison for the italians, but I think the result is the same as you said: in castle age there arent enough castles to train them and you lag behind if you get out of the way for collecting lots of stone

  • @frankfinkelbach3679
    @frankfinkelbach3679 Před 3 lety

    Thanks for another helping video.

  • @adu6422
    @adu6422 Před 3 lety

    Thats exactly the video i needed

  • @colin8696908
    @colin8696908 Před 3 lety

    So much I didn't know about this game.

  • @austinpugmire2843
    @austinpugmire2843 Před 3 lety +4

    I really think the final test would have been improved with an Eagle test. It would be a very common match up.

  • @edwardcisabella
    @edwardcisabella Před 3 lety +3

    If you count the castle for the longbowman, you should have counted the wood for the archery range

    • @Lightning_Lance
      @Lightning_Lance Před rokem +1

      but most of the time you already have an archery range available from your early castle age rush

  • @reddude954
    @reddude954 Před 3 lety +121

    I’ll be entirely honest with you, I’ve never even played AoE2. See you next video!

  • @ComfyDents
    @ComfyDents Před 3 lety +1

    If I don't confuse things here, the Longbows have a higher frame delay than crossbows. So that crossbows are easier to micro.

  • @viktorianas
    @viktorianas Před 3 lety +5

    Elite Huskarls: there is no difference for us.

  • @purposeinpresence4494
    @purposeinpresence4494 Před 3 lety +1

    Hey Spirit, love your videos! It would be so cool if you made a video about optimum gaming specs/performance. Computer nerd stuff like, monitor refresh rate, frames per second and resolution, even the ultra wide 21:9 aspect ratio. Iv noticed there is not much video content on how this stuff translates to gameplay in DE.

  • @HawkSea
    @HawkSea Před 3 lety

    Love you Spirit

  • @NinjaMonte1990
    @NinjaMonte1990 Před 3 lety

    I love the progressions of the opening. It rocks

  • @dragovern
    @dragovern Před 3 lety

    I just sent the spanish captions. I hope you can approve them, it's a shame that feature won't be availabe anymore. Thanks for the great work as always SOTL.

  • @daveyishere55
    @daveyishere55 Před 3 lety

    The nostalgia, I won't ever forget playing AoEII when I was like 12

  • @dheruonline
    @dheruonline Před 3 lety

    Great video

  • @yanchoho
    @yanchoho Před 3 lety

    We need someone like you in the Aoe3 community...!!!

  • @karllarson5162
    @karllarson5162 Před 3 lety +5

    Honestly, it seems strange for the longbow to be so inaccurate. I think base accuracy should be increased for them

    • @ThePijarro
      @ThePijarro Před 3 lety +1

      @St. Haborym Eh not really.... kinda weird trying to disspell this myth, but english longbows were not long range bombardment weapons. I think they mostly shoot around 300 meters despite their high draw weight. I think the record is 340m, I'm but not sure where i read that. Compare that to say turkish bows, which are shorter reflex-bows in the asiatic style, with (typically) lower draw-weight and lighter arrows shoot up to 500 meters. (Numbers might be a little off, but you get the gist, think modern flight archery tests have played with this and tested it out.)
      Couple this with the fact that medieval art shows english archers shooting more or less straight at their enemy instead of in an arc we can begin to imagine that perhaps direct fire from 100-50 meters might have been more common than we imagine. Now while the reflex technology in the Turkish makes it technologically "superior" (for the lack of better term), the english longbow was probably cheaper to produce, easier to maintain in diffrent climates (including the rainy british isles), shot higher draweights and heavier arrows.
      I recomend some channels that talk bows and crossbows (sometimes):
      czcams.com/channels/t14YOvYhd5FCGCwcjhrOdA.html (Matt Easton, Mostly swords, but talks about various things including archery)
      czcams.com/users/todsstuff1 (Tod Cutler, fantastic craftsman did a crossbow, longbow comparison with Joe Gibbs)
      czcams.com/users/Joe8Gibbs (Joe Gibbs, this ones all longbow I guess. One of the few guys that can actually draw and shoot200lbs bow!)
      Many more out there, wish I could provide you more textual sources, but have neither the time nor do I think anyone cares that much lol.

  • @-Raylight
    @-Raylight Před 3 lety +45

    Plot twist : Cobra cars won again xD
    Britons long bowmen are much better at short range than long range huh
    That's kinda ironic... I guess they're not Legolas so they don't have 101% accuracy

    • @catrielmarignaclionti4518
      @catrielmarignaclionti4518 Před 3 lety +6

      i mean, an arrow at point blank im pretty sure it hurts more than a few kilometer away

    • @GepardenK
      @GepardenK Před 3 lety +3

      No they are much better at long range (100% better actually), because the alternative is not having that range.

    • @werigubskdjgb
      @werigubskdjgb Před 3 lety +1

      @@GepardenK 100% more than nothing is still nothing

    • @catrielmarignaclionti4518
      @catrielmarignaclionti4518 Před 3 lety +1

      @@GepardenK ??? we are comparing the longbow to himself in the dps fashion, long range vs short range, and in that test, short range is far better for obvious reasons.

    • @GepardenK
      @GepardenK Před 3 lety

      ​@@werigubskdjgb 100% of nothing is still nothing. 100% more means you add the percentage.

  • @vCLOWNSHOESv
    @vCLOWNSHOESv Před 3 lety +1

    I was expecting a historical documentary when I clicked.

  • @Divert486
    @Divert486 Před 3 lety +1

    I havent played AOE since i was a young teenager, yet im here watching this video to the end.

  • @StrakanDocrusReakal
    @StrakanDocrusReakal Před 3 lety

    I have been planing on trying a "squad" system, so for brits in castle/imperial, a basic archer squad would be 2 archers, 2 longbows and 1 skirmisher, so each squad consists of 5 units, with 2-3 or in this case 4 unit of them being the "main unit" with the others being in support, i mainly thought of this to try and ensure that while my armies may be built for a certain role, they can still fight against a variety of opponents. Which brings me to a certain idea of a video, what units pair nicely with others in ways that cover each others weaknesses.

  • @westtex3675
    @westtex3675 Před 3 lety +2

    I never knew the game was advanced enough to track arrow projectiles and do a collision check on missed shots to see if they hit nearby untargeted units. I guess it makes sense though, that if it can do it for mangonels, it can do it for arrows.

    • @Lightning_Lance
      @Lightning_Lance Před rokem +1

      that's part of the reason why archer units are better when massed, because the larger the armies the less it matters if you miss the target you were aiming for, you'll just hit someone else. It's not as big of a factor as closing time for the cavalry/infantry units (how much they need to run around to get to the next target vs ranged units just continually shooting) but it does also play a role

  • @leventebardossy5962
    @leventebardossy5962 Před 3 lety +1

    You should also do an Archer vs Plumed Archer comparison for the Mayans.

  • @SanyoVojta
    @SanyoVojta Před 3 lety +11

    6:26 So you are saying that, if mass group of archers without thumb ring fire at group of units, there is "splash" damage from missed arrows ? That hits other units around ?

    • @jonathann.5754
      @jonathann.5754 Před 3 lety +1

      Yes
      So overkill is a little less likely too

    • @jacobnion2525
      @jacobnion2525 Před 3 lety +1

      Yes, this is what happens. And this actually decreases the overkill effect when fighting against tightly packed units.

    • @1986Maria1986
      @1986Maria1986 Před 3 lety +2

      Mass some arambai (like 50+) and give it a try, sometimes it feels like an onagre shooting more than some archers.

    • @SanyoVojta
      @SanyoVojta Před 3 lety

      @@1986Maria1986 Yeah you are right i already saw that somewhere

    • @satyakisil9711
      @satyakisil9711 Před 3 lety +2

      There is no splash damage. It doesn't work that way.
      An arrow missing its intended target will do half damage if it hits another enemy unit instead. But it does no damage to your own units or units of your allies nearby if they take the shot.

  • @janbaltes2863
    @janbaltes2863 Před 3 lety

    Love your content! AoE for life :)

  • @buttersstotch172
    @buttersstotch172 Před 3 lety

    I love your Videos T-West

  • @Calebgoblin
    @Calebgoblin Před 3 lety

    Excellent video as always and I want to express appreciation for the channel in general....
    But, I do want to make a historical point that longbows didn't necessarily have a steeper learning curve than most other bows, in fact they were among the easiest and cheapest to create. However the skill cap of long bows were higher than a lot of other traditional archers because of the raw strength and range with heavy arrows that could be afforded with them.
    Tl;dr: they weren't necessarily more difficult than other bows, just more powerful potential with years of training.

  • @fahtenfuhten
    @fahtenfuhten Před 3 lety

    OMG 2 hours before the upload, I googled/youtubed "AOE2 Britons Longbowmen vs Arbalests". What a coincidence ^^

  • @davidpaul8647
    @davidpaul8647 Před 3 lety

    Crossbow/Arbalest vs Plumed Archers next please! :D

  • @MaximusLight
    @MaximusLight Před 3 lety

    I think it's also worth pointing out that in a real game it makes sense to make longbows along side crossbows just to start to get their number rolling but you'd still be relying on crossbows because they are easier to mass. Instead the idea is to instead try to hang onto the longbows for as long as possible (usually crossbows and skirmishers in one group and longbows in the other), that way when you get enough castes to produce them and the upgrade you can start to just replace your numbers slowly with all longbows and maybe some skims (although I prefer cavalry at that point). Even then though you typically want a fair number of archery ranges and the arbalest to serve as a quick massing unit when you need to ram up production

  • @DelanoBrun
    @DelanoBrun Před 3 lety

    Thank you for this! Britons are my main civ...

  • @carlosjavierpalacios6194
    @carlosjavierpalacios6194 Před 3 lety +7

    I mean, of couse the longbowman is know for his remarkable short range barrage, what else do you expected from THAT unit?? Is obvious if you think about it

    • @jordiejonny
      @jordiejonny Před 3 lety +3

      They were a lot more powerful at short range and more likely to penetrate armor. Since the arrow loses energy the longer in flies through the air

  • @vandanpatel7937
    @vandanpatel7937 Před 3 lety

    Finally a tech video

  • @BOOMbarash5000
    @BOOMbarash5000 Před 3 lety +4

    Did they nerf longbows' range in DE? I clearly remember them having greater range than generic archers/crossbows.

    • @Cheezus117
      @Cheezus117 Před 3 lety

      I was thinking the same thing. Maybe Briton generic archers didn't get the range bonuses?

  • @fgrcdefeatkiller7724
    @fgrcdefeatkiller7724 Před 3 lety +2

    youtube translated crossbow to "arbalesta" and i got super confused when i saw the thumbnail

  • @Duke_of_Lorraine
    @Duke_of_Lorraine Před 3 lety +3

    Who needs crossbows or longbows when you have warwolf trebuchets ?

  • @asder2036
    @asder2036 Před rokem

    Sometimes you get ''hidden'' or counterintuitive findings, but in this case, tests and data confirm the feel you get since 1999 when using longbowmen. English arbs are pretty good, but the longbows are another story. A pain to face, a pleasure to use.

  • @rattler9246
    @rattler9246 Před 3 lety

    Hey SotL, I have a question for you. What is the most effective way to deal with being housed throughout the ages, especially Dark and Feudal Ages? Do you build a house with a single villager, in order to keep as much of your economy working as possible? Or do you send multiple villagers to get the house built as quickly as possible, in order to keep your town center working, and to produce the next villager sooner?

  • @sumiran8790
    @sumiran8790 Před 3 lety +1

    Hey spirit its because of u i bought the aoe2 de game on steam

  • @Vrussk
    @Vrussk Před 3 lety

    Wish you had given shots vs imperial skirmisher as well, speaking of which, It would be great if you updated your Imperial Skirmisher video for DE 🙏

  • @Matthew-uv6gl
    @Matthew-uv6gl Před 3 lety

    The general point of this video is a topic which can be applied to multiple Civs. Specifically, that it isn't often worth the investment to go for a unique unit out of a castle due to the limitations of the castle requirement and not being able to train that unit line earlier. For example, Slavs are similar to Brits where they are better off sticking on knights in castle age.

  • @RealKangarooFlu
    @RealKangarooFlu Před 3 lety

    I'm still waiting to see an SOTL vs TOO match!

  • @omghhhxd1875
    @omghhhxd1875 Před 3 lety +1

    No entendí mucho pero tú voz es simplemente hermosa

  • @LenxOrc
    @LenxOrc Před 3 lety

    it would be awesome if you did like a history video for all unique units.

  • @expandeux
    @expandeux Před 3 lety

    I am still waiting for that tower bonus damage to be included in any of the tower civ comparisons and how they interact with villagers.

  • @Vaasref
    @Vaasref Před 3 lety +4

    Do you think that accuracy (and the lack thereof) has a mesurable impact on overkill ?

    • @Lightning_Lance
      @Lightning_Lance Před rokem +1

      don't know about that, but lower accuracy can be better against moving targets if you don't have ballistics

  • @PJOZeus
    @PJOZeus Před 3 lety

    Would have been interesting to have a hybrid army added into the test results, like someone who was mid transition

  • @jeroen92
    @jeroen92 Před 3 lety

    Another reason to stick to arbalest is the big upgrade cost for elite longbowmen. That combined with the need for castles means most people end up going full arbalest. Especially in teamgames where you need to be constantly producing.