Samsung's "Breakthrough" 900wh/l Solid State Battery (Deep Dive)
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- čas přidán 2. 06. 2024
- Is it really a breakthrough? When will we get it? In this video I do a deep dive into Samsung's 'Breakthrough' 900wh/l Solid State Battery that delivers a cycle life of 1000 cycles. Samsung's researchers have claimed that their battery reduces dendrite formation. They plate a smooth layer of lithium metal by introducting a silver-carbon layer to reduce nucleation energy and increase conductivity of the lithium ions. This is kind of like adding water to pancake batter and increasing gravity to make smooth flat pancakes.
00:00 - Background
01:07 - Key Concepts
03:17 - Abstract Paraphrased
04:27 - Battery Design
09:39 - How it works
13:26 - My Review and Thoughts
#Battchatt #BatteryTwitter
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Intro Music by Dyalla: Homer Said - Věda a technologie
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at 14:00, did you mean to say the *silver* can be replaced?
Yes! Thanks for pointing that out 🔥 😀
I didn't even notice that until you mentioned it
Yeah, I was sort of wondering what the cheaper material was going to be. lol
Lithium = corrosion. I dont see this as a solid state battery. This is a "continue to buy once it dies" battery. This is not the best they can do. 1000 Charges? Garbage. There is no excuse for this other than profit and lightweight race. Iron and detergents without chloride have more longevity than this. This isnt cutting edge or energy future wise, its engineered failure again.
it was the ‘lighter than lithium’ that got me. 🤪
Bro i was sitting here like someone should make a show called Limiting Factor, then decided someone had to have made that! Hell ya good day
This was a fantastic video. Your review at the end was much appreciated. Looking forward to hearing more about Novonix.
Great video. Love your conclusions section. It's nice that you highlight the information which might not immediately stand out but should.
The old problem of researchers doing really good work, but marketing people taking the basic research and spinning it into something it is not. Then journalists too lazy to ask the hard questions exaggerate it into a moonshot.
Right. Dendrite forming is one of the big unsolved problems. Any research that advances our understanding or even solves it is an important step and might even have big implications in other fields. Lucky for us we have a new brand of journalist arising on CZcams!
@@mennovanlavieren3885 Yes, more power to these new journalists! Everyone who still relies on traditional journalists (the type that studied English/the arts/political science with a heavy dose of post-modernism and grievance studies thrown in) is self-deceiving. Traditional journalists have committed themselves to producing romantic and exciting fiction loosely based on real events.
Right, here we go.
My guess
Still in the lab, maybe, one day.
Now let's watch the vid. 😁
That was my reaction too, and that's after watching the video. 😀
Elon will save us on battery day.
Another magical battery breakthrough and the only thing it can't do is make it out of the lab, same as all the others
@Andrew C , i agree that testing metals for say "screening" the charged electrolite is a beautiful finding, i also agree that more researchers will get in on this and trial and error it to validation before pushing full on manufactuing of a untested product, but if theres a demand, at least you know you can order chemistries from companies ;)
Jordan excellent presentation you answered all my question about whether or not this is a breakthrough. Can't wait for your next video
I learn so much from your videos i get normally have to watch a couple times to learn the info
Thanks man! This one was fun to do. Fascinating stuff and I get to talk about pancakes, lol
Thanks Jordon. Your videos are really interesting well explained and appreciated. Thanks
Your videos are excellent. Very informative 🙏 Keep up the good work!
Thanks Sean!
Wow! That analogy is amazing about playing lithium on the current collector. Great work! Subscribing and hitting the notification bell. I’ll definitely be following your work carefully.
What a great video explaining this. Thanks for your insights and analysis!
Excellent, knowledgeable review - great job!
This is so nice. Its impossible to know what to think when a new a battery breakthrough is announces but you don´t understand the technology well enough to actually understand what it really means. And now i know that this announcement is interesting with possible uses for highly specific one time projects or something but not really cost effective for commercial use. Everything i wanted to know.
1). I'm actually watching this video while doing the dishes after having made pancakes... 2). Your analogy was great. Were you consciously making this pancake BATTERy analogy!?!? 😂 3). I don't know a lot about battery chemistry (learning a lot thanks to your excellent videos though!), but I can recommend using coconut milk instead of water. Also a portion of rice flour gives a great subtle sweet taste to the pancakes. 😉. Big like for the video and looking forward to the next one. (Hurry up Tesla battery day!!!). Wishing you a wonderful day!
Ha! Thanks man. Maybe I'll start doing food videos as well, lol.
The Limiting Factor basically another form of chemistry. Dry, solid state.. liquid.. plenty of parallels. 🤣
Save some Pancakes for us plaese. Lol
They sound great !
Fine particles in the cathode side allows for better packing, hence better contact area and hence lower internal resistance. If the pictures shown are true EM photos, then the packing is truely remarkable. Also the SSE must have a highly defective structure to have high conductivity.
@@trashmail8 They are more like gels (like pancakes) and should not be called solids.
"The future of battery technology, and always will be!" I've been hearing the same BS about "new" battery technologies since I was about 10. I'm 67 now. I still have a copy of a 1963 "Popular Mechanics" magazine telling about a "breakthrough" in battery design. It never made it past the research stage. CO$T, CO$T, CO$T! Silver anode batteries go back before WWII with the Germans trying to build them for U-Boats. Too expensive for military use. That has to be pretty darn expensive...
Me too. At 61, I am still waiting for the consumer jet pack!
Excellent analysis. I had the impression that this is just a hype. You have nailed it shut
Awesome, great to put a hyped headline into perspective of commercialisation.
best video on the subject so far, thank you very much
looking forward to other battery related videos
👏🤜🤛
Another great video. Very understandable and educational. The cost angle
really puts into focus Tesla’s focus and why they haven’t been hyping solid state technologies.
Great animations! I admire your work. I hope to be able to emulate this but add my own flare. Keep putting out the great work 👍🏽
Thanks man! Really easy to build this stuff on the TinkerCad website. Then export it and view it in windows 3D viewer, hit the turntable button, and record. Voila!
The Limiting Factor thanks for sharing that! I really look forward to exploring more and watching more of your work. Take care and I wish you the best. Keep shining
Thank you for going through this with us. Extremely usely.
🤜🤛🤠
Great presentation. Great narration. Very informative. Very well done.
Thanks Rea!
Brilliant analysis 👍🏻useful, justified, deep, sceptical, and honest 👏🏻
A very good contribution, congratulations.
Subscribed!
Wow, I know a bit of chemistry (chemistry major) but not so much about battery chemistry. The way you explained battery chemistry is fantastic. I would love to see other videos on existing battery technology.
I see you have some! Watching now...
Thanks man! I'll get deeper into battery chemistry. I'm using learning about Tesla as a springboard. There's so much out there to cover and learn.
Great insights Jordan
Thought about you today and then you post a new video - well deserved? 😅
The depth of the analysis is humbling, very much appreciated! 👍
You're most welcome my friend!
You've become my favorite YT channel
🔥🔥🔥 🙏
@@thelimitingfactor Your info is imo extremely valuable context (needless to say) on Tesla stock for long range investors!
Absolutely loving your channel and it’s rare to come across channels that actually focus on the depths of technology.
I am very interested to know what your thoughts are on Lithium metal composite anodes? Yes they do suffer from the problem of dendrite formations but given the benefit they have to offer - do you think they’re worth the chase or is the research in that directional fundamentally inferior to other technologies? :)
Thanks man, and great question! I haven't looked into this yet. By the time I get to this hopefully the Battery 500 consortium is a bit further along. Shirley Meng said she'll be releasing more information later this year.
Excellent translation of such a difficult subject!
Thanks Rishi!
WOW! Great video! Thanks so much!!!
You're most welcome!
Yes I will watch your videos the second they come out!!😂
Thanks Jay!
Me too XD
You are awesome!
Thanks for sharing man
✊🏼
As usual, great content
Really nice video! understood everything of it thanks
You're most welcome!
Thanks for making these videos. Your voice is calming and your style of simplyfing without making it too simple is very refreshing!
Thanks for the perfect explanation 👍🏻👍🏻✅
We must all acknowledge that the paths to the future are never superhighways, but twisting, narrow mud trails. Many will strive, some will almost succeed, a very few will cross the finish line. This is evolution in action, and all involved should be congratulated for their efforts. Thanks for the review of the Samsung research - it adds to the world's collective data base of battery tech. Keep up the good work!
Great Video Jordan! Looking forward to seeing the role that Novonix will play in supplying low cost synthetic graphite. Subscribed!
Thanks man! I checked out your channel a few days ago. I'l be interested to see what you do with it.
@@thelimitingfactor Ah nice, yeah it's gonna be fun!
You are good! Thanks for explaining things so we can understand it.
No problem Vidar!
Great video. Do also add Skeleton and Nawa ultracaps to your series. I hear they are going to come out with 100wh/kg ultra caps soon. It is not alot, but to put things into perspective, the best ultracaps we had before was of maxwell tech and they are at most 10-20wh/kg, which is INSANE imo.
Interesting!
Great as always 😁
Thanks for putting that into perspective for us, besides I already had the prejudice that a battery using silver could probably be more expensive than what the world needs right now.
Great video, thanks 👍🏻!
My pleasure!
great work, great information- I would've used melting ice over pancakes lolllll - great work!!
That's also a great way to think about it
"This is The Way!" :o)
Interesting. Yup, it would seem that the announcement by Samsung was a bit overhyped. But perhaps this research _will_ pave the way to more practical and even more dense designs.
Not so much "overhyped", probably more "misunderstood"...... Until now (😁!)
Nice explanation of the Samsung cell, Jordan. I question the importance of the cost of Zirconium and Silver. This is ENTIRELY dependent on the amount required. The Zr is a nanolayer, so I think that can be ignored. As for the Ag, how much do they need? If it's only a few milligrams per cell, no problem. If it's grams per cell, then it's several thousand dollars per car. Even that's not enough to be an absolute killer of this technology, if it were developed to a truly outstanding cycle life and energy density.
That's a fair point. This is why I said small amounts would be required. this is lab scale and there's no way of knowing how much they would end up needing. There may be some use cases for this battery, but the fact that even Samsung isn't commercializing it is telling.
@@thelimitingfactor you could also argue along the lines, that the silver used is an "investment" or that it makes it more likely that the battery later at EOL will be reused/recycled since it has a higher intrinsic value because of its silver content, thus supporting the "circular economy" (and perhaps for the car owner, at EOL, to recoup the initial "investment".
Great video, again! You discussed volumetric energy density. Did they mention gravimetric energy density?
Nope, and I think for good reason 😃. I also looked through the supplementary material and they didn't mention how much the cells weighed.
Great Show - Thanks
Great breakdown Jordan. Very interesting to see Solid State making progress. Unfortunate its so tied to expensive silver. Do you have any other material contenders that may allow solid-state to move into semi-practical/economical territories?
Another question, do you expect Solid State to continue to be a focus of advanced battery research once the new Tesla Batteries are announced? Thanks again!
Hey Nick! Battery 500 is making progress by leaps and bounds on a pure lithium anode.
Good question, I expect work on solid state to continue regardless of what Tesla announces.
There are so many use cases for each technology, and it's hard to know where each will eventually lead - so it's good so many companies and researchers are taking so many approaches.
The amount of silver is about < 1 % of the entire battery. No problem cost wise. Although it would be slightly more $$.
@@tigeroll They need to understand why silver carbon material reduce dendrite formation. Once they have that understanding they can look at the periodic table to find replacement elements that produce similar effect but cheaper than silver carbon.
Ever since I read an online article in 2017 about a "breakthrough" development in solid-state rechargeable batteries by University of Texas researcher John Goodenough (yes, that's really his name), I have been wondering what happened since I had not seen any follow up announcements for actual commercialization of this new battery technology. Here is an informative recent CZcams video that brings us up to date on when we might see this leap in technology put into the marketplace (but don't hold your breath). czcams.com/video/x8FEyaZxqAU/video.html
Mate your videos are very detailed and for sure very good. For the average Joe , or not so battery savvy might be difficult to follow. I think since you have such an abundant knowledge about batteries maybe as an idea... you could create a series of instructional videos to explain batteries for the not so savvy guys. I guess there would be videos explaining this but your perspective might be unique since you can relate it to the car and home batteries, I sure would be a success. Thanks for your content!
Totally! I have plans for battery basics videos
Great video....always love your content :) any thoughts on Companies using hybrid approach ? Combination of few high speed charge/ discharge cells + long range cells to address both issues efficiently?
Looks relatively promising! It's beautiful in its simplicity.
"high discharge cells"?
I assume you mean Supercaps?
@@rogerstarkey5390 Exactly !
Interesting video and great explanation. I wonder if you could also apply the idea of the Ag-C layer to liquid electrolyte batteries to prevent dendrite formation there. That might make it possible to make more compact and durable liquid electrolyte batteries. That will be a lot easier to achieve than developing a useful SS battery with this technology. Ofcourse they will need to find a cheaper alternative material to Ag-C to suppress dendrite formation (or make it work with very small amounts of Ag).
Oh, thank god! Finally a solid state battery! I was getting sick and tired of the tubes and electric fans in my iPhone keeping me awake all night! (just kidding, I'm just old enough to remember when solid state radios took over tube type radios)
This is the way - take my like
LOL
Hi!!! Another great video! Which battery do you think will be here for a looong time? Thanks
We are still using NiMH and Lead acid, and we will continue to use them for a long time. New tech just builds on the old :)
I like how the whole world is rushing for new battery solutions, I hope we can look back and call this the battery rush age
Thank you - very well done 🙂 amazing graphics, well explained!
If you care for a critical comment, I don‘t know if it is just me or others feel the same way. The way you talk seems a bit monotone to mee and I guess there would be a big lever that more people stay and whatch you amazing content.
It's a fair comment. Some people love it, other people hate it. :D My clickthrough rates and retention rates are high. The formula seems to be working. One way around it is to increase the video speed on your player.
The Limiting Factor :)
@@thelimitingfactor Don't change a thing Jordan!
Thx. for those Time Stamps.
I didn't realize the difference between WH/L and WH/KG was so big! I always thought the 900WH/L was way better than Teslas current 250-300 WH/KG. Thanks for that clearification!
This is an ongoing issue.
Commentators often confuse the two, which leads to..... Let's call it "optimism" ..... regarding the performance of certain technology.
This was very GOOD.
Very well explained, thank you. I subscribed, look forward to checking out more.
At last, someone to clarify the significance of Samsung bold announcement of their SSB breakthrough - interesting but silver puts its cost beyond commercial viability. And its only a lab-bat! Thanks Jordan.
I don't think the silver would stop it being commercially viable. The amount of silver in each battery is not very large, and silver is not quite as expensive as you might expect (it's very cheap compared to gold, for example, which is used in lots of electronic components). A couple of grams of silver only costs about a dollar, which would be a justified expense if the battery was sold at premium prices (which we would expect, considering the advanced technology).
1. I did not see data that defines capacity loss at 1000 cycles: 20%? 50%?
2. I wonder if a solid state cell could be fully discharged w/o suffering damage?
Point number one, at 1000 cycles it was bouncing all over the place. But it was still above 80%. Not sure on the second point.
Search for Jhon Goodennght and Elenna Braga white papers. They have better research and cheap cann use Na(yeah salt from ocean or that what you use onn chiken)
Jordan. Couple of things.
1. The premise that an SSB reduces the propensity for fires and explosions is received wisdom that is likely flawed at traction battery scale. In an overcharging situation (and less likely but perhaps also in a short circuit situation) the SSB will explode violently as the failure mode because it cannot so easily boil off the electrolyte at relatively low temperatures and pressures to vent with or without flame. Overcharging a large SSB is a simple case of too much energy in a confined space and nothing present in liquid phase will tend for solids to go straight to gas very explosively.
2. Coulombic efficiency. When we are up at > 99.7 levels of coulombic efficiency, it is not correct to assume that even a high percentages of coulombic losses are due to irreversible chemical side reactions. While it is splitting hairs on the definition of an unwanted side reaction, the kinetic energy lost to reversible volumetric changes owing to changes in the density of electrodes and perhaps even a solid electrolyte at different states of battery charge, will be recorded by equipment that records round-trip cycling losses and reports the balance as coulombic efficiency.
The choice of stainless seems like it's to reduce possible interactions between that and the silver. There's something in the back of my brain saying it's to reduce possible magnetic effects as well, but it's way back in there somewhere.
Thx for the breakdown, been hunting for this information since i heard about it and the million mile battery. Hope battery day's here soon.
That's
"Million mile batteries" (plural)
CATL cell
Tesla (JD) cell
😉
@@rogerstarkey5390 i've heard catl confirming, but tesla as well?
Do explain further please, can't find anything about "JD" cells.
@@theDubleD
Watch any two presentations on this channel and you'll see the majority of chemistries and architecture of the Tesla (Jeff Dahn) cell explained in detail by Jordan.
Confirmation?
Battery day
@@rogerstarkey5390 k, will check it out.
This is the most recent video on this channel i found describing tesla's patent:
czcams.com/video/dpe-ajzucTE/video.html
Will these cells be brittle? Maybe Stainless steel was chosen for it's strength to withstand bending forces better.
We really need a breakthrough in battery power cell technology
There should be research into solving the low discharge / recharge cycles by making the cells like a sandwich that's rebuildable with replaceable electrolyte and electrodes. Think about a swappable battery pack that can be replaced instead of recharging it. Then field replacement of the consumables in the battery pack.
Thank you for the informative insights.
Good job 🤓
Two years past, just demonstrates another battery miracle breakthrough story that has come and gone.
Amen!
Minor production quibble: I think the 60fps doesn't make sense for this presentation style video. It just increases the bandwidth and hardware requirements with little benefit.
Unfortunately I agree! My old Chromecast couldn't keep up with this :(
Manuel Barkhau with so many static images frame rates should be optimized in the compression algorithm to reduce redundancy.
people using 60fps for other than gaming is useless I think.. it inflates bandwidth requirements extremely for no benefit.. I even think 24p is more aesthetic than 60fps
@@chronokoks I like it. I think videos look much better in 60fps.
I prefer it, it's smoother and easier on my eyes. Additionally I have 500mbit Internet and my 7 year old computer is more than fast enough for it. Can't you switch the resolution yourself?
Thanks for your clear explanation with visuals! Sorry to hear this battery is not sustainable but at least people are trying. I wonder if that glass battery by J. Goodenough’s colleague (can’t remember her name) is any closer to happening..?
No problem! Maria's battery is at least 5 years away. This is according to her and John.
We have been hearing about this battery for 3 years possibly 4? Why is it we don't have access to it yet???
Sounds great, but cost per KwH determines if it could be made.
There's still the issue of cobalt to be addressed. NMC is Nickel - Manganese - Cobalt, used for high energy density, but a greater fire risk and more expensive than LFP Lithium - Iron - Phosphate
Glad I invested in silver...
If true, then this will boost technology progress by 5 years faster than expected.
Everything electric will dominate !
I think you missed the point where the use of expensive silver and zirconium makes this battery a non-starter financially. If the battery pack cost goes from $7500 to $40k, which EV companies in their right mind are going to use this? There might be a replacement for the expensive atoms, but then that's a completely different battery.
We have difficulty meeting the demand for electricity in the summer months. Where in the heck will we get enough to charge 100 million cars daily?
Keep up the good work, you are the type of person we could use a lot more of! Good teachers are rare
please keep us up to date when you get new information about why the silver helps the Battery out the way it does.
Will do!
I’ve had my s6 edge for 5 years and I’ve charged it every day to the math the battery still fine
I tuned in at 11:00 and thought this was about pancake physics.
I love the playback speed control. Just as most of us can learn to speed read, I think we can learn to speed listen.
ha! It's a lifesaver for me too.
I sometimes "speed listen", note the interesting timestamps, then review.
But
With Jordan's analysis there's normally so much good stuff that I have to review the whole thing at normal speed at least once anyway! (With "ponder breaks")
Don’t try it with HyperChange 😁
Great work! What are your thoughts on the liquid metal battery technology? Thanks
Graphite based batteries will be the primary technology for the next decade. Lithum metal will start playing peekaboo around 2025.
Liquid metal has zero use in transport applications, simply because.... It's *liquid metal* !
One more question to ask?
How will the structure tolerate thermal stress and thermal cycle? Report avoid that means they are still working on it or even ignorance this possibility.
Exactly! Usually any chemistry goes through a series of durability tests. Apparently they didn't see the chemistry as viable enough to bother?
The Limiting Factor
Is that your words or theirs?
I have always wondered how the dendrites manage to short the battery to the extent of explosion. Why dont they just "zap" shorter like a thin wire over battery terminals would burn out? Or is it the combustion during the zap inside flammable material? Doesnt need o2 to combust?
The electrolyte is flammable. Zap... Whooompfff, lol
Great video as always. You focused the use case of this solid state battery chemistry for electric vehicles. Samsung is a major player in the mobile phone world. With that use case in mind, how would you rate this battery chemistry for creating batteries for mobile phones or other small battery driven appliances.
Similar. You make a good point though. I do tend to think of batteries strictly through the lens of electric vehicles and storage. Basically, this battery is flat out too expensive with little benefit in return.
The Limiting Factor wouldn’t that depend more on the amount of silver used in a battery. Did they tell anything about the amount of silver used in this setup? Using precious metals in electronics is not new. An average laptop contains about 60micrograms of gold.
The stainless steel anode is likely a bespoke alloy with elevated nickel proportions.
So how does this differ from the solid state lithium cell that John B. Goodenough's team at UT came up with?
John's is probably commerically viable...in about 5 years minimum.
this great stuff your are doing keep up the good work ... with Silver prices as you say this isn't going to happen soon! Could you do the same type of PRACTICAL FEASIBILITY video on Toyota spending their R&D budget on solid-state li-ion and fluoride-ion battery tech with Panasonic? could this be a reason Panasonic is lagging in Production for Tesla gigafactory.... relationships with Toyota are stronger? hmm!!
I heard you say the compound Kobalt is in this battery. Correct?
When given the option between 2 batteries where one has no kobalt but shorter livety at half the price....
Would it be the best choice?
But now again, if baked in the frame of the car and not replaceable? You get a throw away car?
14:00 "the Lithium could be swapped out for something cheaper and lighter"
You mean silver ? IRC lithium is the lightest and most delta-V capable there is. Plus it's cheap.
Yes
As we don't know exactly how the Ag-C-layer helps with smoothing the Li-layer, we don't know yet if it has to be Silver, or what the ratio of Carbon and Silver has to be. Yes, Silver has the highest conductivity of all elements. But maybe it's replaceable by Copper or Aluminum, if conductivity is the criterion. Or it might be sufficient if we use small structures made from other elements, which are just coated with a thin layer of Silver. I wouldn't rule out that the amount of Silver necessary might be minuscule, or that Silver can replaced completely. (Same with Li itself. Maybe Na-ions will also perform well in that setup -- less energy density, but much cheaper.)
Very good points!
As soon as you mentioned silver a red light started flashing. Totally agree that cost is an important factor in the battery equation and Musk always has an eye on the $$$. I hope he achieves his battery goal this year.
Me too Doug! Looking forward to see what they've cooked up. So many paths they could take...
If I had a guess why a steel anode was used I would go for mechanical property. Maybe the cell is more susceptible to mechanical stress.
The thermal expansion coefficient of steel might be better suitable than nickel.
Regarding the price you didn't disclose the percentage of silver. If silver is an active material as you discribes it you are probably right.
Liquid state flammable, solid state explosive. I'd like to see a grenade firing pin fitted to it, and pulled first. C4 cars wow the future will be carnage.
LOL
This is a great channel! I'm curious what you think of Novonix's DPMG technique of "no waste" anode and single crystal cathode production. Is it something Tesla might use? Doesn't it potentially take away much of Tesla's competitive advantage in the "million mile battery" race if they make it available to all battery producers?
I'm working on a video on this
@@thelimitingfactor I thought so...just wanted a quick opinion before I decide on whether to invest in the company or not:)
shouldn't you change your channel same to limitless factor?
LOL, thanks man
@@thelimitingfactor welp I can't spell