I Have A Problem With PC Gaming...
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- čas přidán 25. 02. 2023
- Hello guys and gals, it's me Mutahar again! This time we take a look at PC gaming and while I'm a massive supporter of it for various reasons, when it comes to modern games I'm very hesitant. With recent titles in the last 2-3 years, shader compilation stuttering has become and issue and has made playing games on PC an objectively worse experience for me on most releases and it's a concern that needs to be alleviated before it gets worse. Thanks for watching!
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Hello Mutahar Anus
Nice
Ah, yes the bots...
Your GAWD is Fake News
@Did ⸜⁄ nope
2:50 to watch Muta see his whole life flash in front of him.
😂
what'd he do? drop it? lol
@@trippwilsonphoto he just did Linus on his steam deck.
plot twist: muta's reaction after he looks at dat lcd screen after flippin it bak over and had to cut camera to react in irate
The face of a man who almost had $800 crumble in front of him
Couch gaming and offline gaming are essential to the longevity of video games.
Not really lol. Offline gaming sure. Not couching game necessarily.
@@christiansmemefactory1513 couch gaming is how many get into gaming
Yoooo no way
@@christiansmemefactory1513 couch gaming was literally the start to all multiplayer gaming. Do you know how boring it is to hang out in person and game when everyone has to bring their own rig to even play multiplayer? PC gaming and even CONSOLE gaming has shifted into an online only format and it's really lame. I guess if you never hang out it's whatever but it's sad that if I'm wanting to order a pizza and crack some drinks it's pretty much down to old titles like smash bros, Mario party, Mario kart, etc.
Nintendo is the only company anymore who makes couch gaming a good point in their titles.
@@R0FLC4T5 couch gaming was more a console thing, hence why I got a PS2 back in the day. But otherwise couch gaming doesn't have much to do with PC, unless you got 2!
Muta: "I'm all about game preservation"
Also Muta: *Drops Steam Deck*
Holy shit I did that a week ago because the carrying case wasn't fully zipped shut & mine fell out onto carpet over concrete, thankfully it wasn't a far drop yikes
@@IAmTheBugInsideYou these things are strong AF!
Yeah it's was so deliberate.......
I wonder if this has a part in why a lot of PC games have steep hardware requirements. Optimization feels like a lost art at this point.
With their unique problems, at least Nintendo is great at optimization. Breath of the Wild 1/2 look great for PS3 hardware and have massive maps, run well, and are full of details and things to do.
I think optimization is only one of the key issues. The other key issue is that the new consoles are pretty beefy in terms of performance and have pushed what games aim for on both pc and console leading to steeper hardware requirements. The new consoles increased unified memory has made pcs need more RAM and VRAM which is why the gpu requirements feel ridiculous as the games need the VRAM on those cards. The new consoles SSDS also have made several pcs running slow storage runs games a lot worse. It was inevitable that the minimum requirements go up eventually, but the playstation and xbox going all out in hardware this gen really amplified the transition.
It’s usually the same at the start of each generation. The minimum specs are always heavily increased as the new console hardware becomes the baseline. Consoles have their own advantages as well in terms of APIs, in particular related to storage.
@@Edmundostudios don't forget about their unified memory, this has pushed vram and ram requirements up tremendously, with several gpus not receiving enough vram causing ridiculous gpu requirements.
@@ItsEmbers I don't think you can call specs the sole issue, when Gen 4 SSDs with a 4090 and a top-tier modern CPU are having stuttering and poor performance. Such hardware, on paper, is already MUCH faster than consoles.
Even upper-mid range PCs with something like a 12600k + RTX 3080 *should* be outperforming consoles and then some.
AFAIK DirectStorage is either not fully implemented via API or developers don't know how to implement it properly, which could alleviate some of these issues. I think Forspoken is the first game to officially support it on PC but all it improves is loading times. GPU-accelerated decompression / asset streaming is not supported like it is on consoles.
I mean just consider that Hogwart's Legacy uses nearly 9GB VRAM at 1600 x 900 resolution. That's absolutely horrendous optimization. Where's the benefit? It looks no better texture wise than games released years ago. So I'm left with the only assumption left -- poor optimization. Whether that's engine, API, driver, or a combination I couldn't tell you.
I miss the 1998-2012 era of gaming, when we mostly got finished products, regardless of PC or Console, but yeah the stutter issues are really bad lately. Shader stutters are a big oof
I'm extending that era to 2018 after that Gaming became worse
@@theoutsiderjess4869ya games where always amazing before
Rose tinted glasses
There were dogshit games and ports since the dawn of PC gaming
You are only rembering the good ones
@@MO_Disk the golden era of horrid controls, crashes, glitches oh look not much has changed
are you serious? PC ports were horrible between 2007-2014. It got better after that
Finally someone else who also sees this as a huge issue.
Digital foundry is there for you
@@HarshJha ikr they've been talking about this for a long time
Many people see this a huge issue and have done for a while - the last AAA game I bought was over a decade ago, the one exception being Fallout 4 in 2015.
Unfortunately, the gaming community is riven with "gamers" (I use the term loosely) who care more about "comparing d*ck sizes" over who has the most expensive graphics card, the most CPU cores and the most simultaneous 4K screens in use. As long as their rig is high up on a comparison chart somewhere, who gives a toss about game content?
Modern gamers are consumers with FOMO - "a fool and his money are easily parted".
@@terrydaktyllus1320 Agreed. I typically wait for games to go on sale before I get them unless it's a multiplayer game. I upgraded my computer for games like COD because if you want to play multiplayer on PC you HAVE to stay up to date, but my friends and I are getting bored of COD again so it's time to cool it with that stuff. Very few games I'm actually into nowadays, I'm mostly playing through older ones I like.
@@Spladoinkal yea, this is why games are dogshit because you're all throwing money at Activision who's now sharing their cut with blizzard an even worse company
I just wish companies could take more stylized approaches like indie games... So sick of realism at this point
Nintendo still chooses stylization that’s why all there games age well graphically
@@fusion1203 Pokémon scarlet and violet says otherwise…
Miles Morales
@@RaspyCh Those are practically 3ds games, bad example
Many great games are stylised. You probably aren't looking hard enough.
This is why I'm a big advocate of a unified/standardized GPU ISA. That way we can bypass the drivers/APIs entirely (which are getting too bloated anyway) and compile our GPU code once and ship it once without shader compilation stutters. Kinda like how we have a unified CPU ISA for desktops. You don't need to recompile your program every time you upgrade to a new CPU, so why should you have to for your GPU?
because most games use general purpose engines like Unreal and Unity that compile all possible shaders to cover all bases - and devs simply can't be assed to cut stuff that isn't needed. Because that would take time and effort and people buy it anyway. What you can possibly need 20000 unique shaders for in a typical game today?
this is why focused engines run so fast compared - look at Doom Eternal - where IdTech7 was made specifically to run this single game.
Actually compilers for CPU uses multiple feature-specific code paths. So the EXE file has the same code compiled multiple times for different CPU architectures. The fastest/compatible path is chosen at runtime. Code could also be compiled for a single generation of CPUs. E.g. use the "/QaxSKYLAKE" with Intel C++ compiler and the software will crash with "Illegal Instruction found" error if run on a non-Skylake CPU.
@@L9MN4sTCUk Right, but that's only because CPU vendors standardized the instruction sets and released the specs. Not to mention, compilers add a fallback in case the instruction doesn't exist (or just don't use the instruction). In theory, if vendors allowed you to upload assembly to the GPU, you could compile a shader for each GPU vendor you think customers will want, but then you run into the problem of enumerating each and every GPU ISA in existence. You can't even have a fallback path because each GPU vendor uses a completely different ISA, which may even change depending on the generation. This means that your program wouldn't be forward compatible. What I'd like is for the industry to agree on a way to talk to GPUs directly, and a standardized base ISA. There can be a driver, but it should be very thin, and only to facilitate communication between the app and the GPU. Each vendor can add their own extension set if they want but programs can always rely on a certain set of instructions to exist.
@@MrSplosiondude I was talking about CPUs. I don't care about GPUs. A GPU is just an overpriced ego stroke for entitled teenagers
Mutas face after he dropped the steam deck is gonna be a new meme
When was it?
@Logan Floor KingCobraJFS is better. King of Content.
@Detector ⸜⁄ bye
@Logan Floor goodbye! :)
@Detector ⸜⁄ bye
I will always 100% take a longer first load if it means its compiling the correct shaders for my system so I can have a stutter free experience in the long run
Maybe not if you have to wait 5 min every time a driver updates
@@daniellima4391 completely fine... Just don't download new drivers till you get a new game or has passed.
It's not a security issue is it?
It has been 1.5 years and counting since my old franken PC crashed and I haven't been able to get it up and running. Been console gaming ever since and it's...nice to not have to tinker with stuff all the time when I just want to spend 5 minutes jumping into a game quick.
I miss the old days where they actually cared about making games for everyone to enjoy.
I remember when Rockstar Games had problems with PC Ports back on GTA 4. It was hilarious.
The old Nintendo days can't be beat they dominated the market.
No that's the problem you can't make a game for everyone. You can't please everyone. When everyone is super, no one will be.
Brrrrrrrrrrrrrr Brrrrrrrrrrrrrr Brrrrrrrrrrrrrr
@@EruAnor it's always been that way some people just love to spread this stupid argument games back in the day had their audiences just like today
I honestly haven’t had problems like this because the games I play aren’t graphically demanding. Outer wilds, satisfactory, factorio, hades, signalis, and several others prefer a great art style as opposed to insane graphics. I think that’s why I’m still on the pc side because I never had these issues, or they were so small that I didn’t care.
Did people in this comment section watch the video?
This this this
Congrats. However, some people do want the best of the best graphics and its inexcusable for remakes like Dead Space. We pay top dollar for our parts and they charge top dollar for their games, so there should be an underlying agreement between gamers and devs that a certain amount of quality should be expected. Paying $70 for a game that runs shit on the fastest hardware is a problem
@@RedFlannelReviews best is an opinion style is all that matters.
Resolution is something they use to abuse you by pretending it's more expensive to make.
It's marketing gobbledygook and nothing more.
@@TessaBain Do you still play on a crt?
@@RedFlannelReviewsstop saying devs, you don’t know what devs even are
Sometimes I play on console just because of the fact that setting up pc games and dealing with driver issues is a pain in the ass. It’s a shame because I’ve spend a couple thousand dollars on my setup over time.
U wanna say that's ps5 better
So In short you're saying consoles are superior
@Angry_Snipes420 most console player has a working gaming pc , so we do have a opinion on why console actually is good. Most people has pc to work on most of the stuff that required.
Setting games to work on PC it's a pain, even if i have the requiered hardware to run It.
Happy you covered this, I’ve been screaming about it since Jedi: Fallen Order (which stutters horribly) and everyone at the time didn’t seem to care or notice. Hopefully with the attention this topic is getting lately we’ll be close to complete solution
Gamed on console my entire life up until just a couple years ago and what I noticed is games tend to run like garbage for months on pc before they're fixed while it always worked fine on console on release.
Yeah pretty much always been like this. Coin flip if a game works well on release.
It’s mostly do to the more broad range of hardware and it’s impossible to find everything wrong with every unique hardware configuration where as on console it’s tailored to the hardware that will never change on the console so it’s easier to optimize it. Of course not ever studio either does it right or even optimize it at all but it’s not as common of things going wrong then on pc because of the more broad differences on pc hardware.
I think you missed the point that modern api's like D3D12 and Vulkan move a lot of the part dealing with these stuttering issue out of the driver onto the application developers side. My impression is that a lot of other graphics programmers view D3D12 and vulkan mostly as a more verbose form of D3D11/OpenGL and completely miss the part where the drivers for the older apis did more under the hood optimizations, like moving work to other threads, compile non optimized shaders for the gpu first, before compiling more optimized versions over time, etc.
So giving more control to the programmers by allowing them to tail their own optimizations has backfired ?
@@danielhiguita5511 Pretty much, yes. Having more control can be useless and even detrimental if you don't know how to utilize that control.
@@ItchHeSay Guarantee you most of them don't, Tech Debt is a very real thing for a reason, the few workplaces I've been in where coding is being done, it's a fucking mess, like even the people who know what they're doing seem like don't know what they're doing half the time.
@NachozMan because learning how to do everything in software really well is practically impossible. Coding as a job has a lot to it outside of just knowing how to code or use the tech stacks you're making software with. There's a lot more of an emphasis now on learning lots of things to an adequate degree rather than becoming a specialist in a couple of things (t-shaped people), because for the vast majority of what devs will be doing is not just working with a couple of things. This often means that the average dev is going to have a tougher time tackling anything technically complex unless they have more experience in that thing. Combine this with changing jobs every few years and likely tech stacks as well means the t-shaped people idea is further solidified but people also don't have the built up knowledge of working on a codebase(s) for a longer period of time.
@@ItchHeSay And the mainstream game engines don't provide solutions. The fact this is so common with unreal engine games is unnacceptable.
I think devs, because of publishers, don't take the time to optimize their games around dx12. It's not really a hardware variety issue, it always has been like this on PC. Why does this stutter issues exist on all PC with different parts?
Yes its a hardware and software communication issue . ps5 and SX I/O can move data around much more effeciently than a PC today (thats still using legacy methods). Thats why pc despreately needs Direct Storage, thats the key to make these games run smoothly. It doest matter if ur 4090 can push 120fps if it constantly stutters.
Regarding Returnal, Digital Foundry has covered the PC port. At around 20 minutes they elaborate on frame-time instability. They found stutter and traversal issues to not be due to shader comp. Instead Ray-Tracing causes stutter. They got in contact with the developer team and found the issue to be 'geometry mesh creation'. Importantly they aim to address this in a future patch.
They recommend turning off RT to avoid stutters. But, if you're CPU isn't good enough it will likely still stutter
Honestly emulators are amazing it allows fans better access to the games they love by being able to play them on newer hardware, if you don't have certain hardware to play new games this is a good option
I'm playing the Switch version of Persona 5 on my phone, it has a shiton of bugs for now (it's a very new emulator), but it's ridiculous how I'm playing the docked version on my phone at a steady 30fps.
And my phone costs 400€
Also having every system from the 2600 to a Wii working almost perfectly on my phone completely changes mobile gaming.
Bots always copy my good comments
It's a shame that the original xbox Emulation still isn't there yet.
@graye2799 it's a shame how this person copied my comment lol
@@KnightSlasher ?
2:48 will become a future meme one day
I've been a PC gamer for about a year and a half now, it's epic but I genuinely don't believe it's worth the trouble.
It's more trouble and tinkering than actual gaming
Most underrated statement ever!
Heavily disagree. I just download games and play them. Simple as that.
@@FourDozenEggs
Sure its not every single game, but consoles are closest to PCs now than ever, and their cheaper.
console gaming is just the best option overall, PC is nice if you want to go overkill and have the money to spend. Or the many games that are exclusive to PC is a good reason to switch to.
If you just want to play video games and nothing more spend the $400-$500 on a console that will give the ALMOST the same experience as a PC minus some minor features
@@FourDozenEggs Shader Stutter Shader Stutter Shader Stutter Shader Stutter
@@Setogayamari fuck consoles bruh
no mods?
no pirating?
consoles will never top pc gaming if there are no mods or ways to pirate your games
the only issue is
shader shutter
I've been a PC gamer and programmer for at least 25 years. I've seen the evolution from writing your own interface to the dozens of cards out there (at the time - I know there are more now). You had to write your own application drivers in many cases for these cards. Then Microsoft came along and invented DirectX and things got a little easier. DirectX had a rocky start, and it didn't always have support, so you still had to actually write your own drivers many times. It wasn't until DirectX hit around 7 or 8 that card manufacturers started paying attention, and they started making their cards DirectX compliant. Then Unity and Unreal came along (not the first engines by far, but by far the most popular) and changed the landscape even more.
Honestly, it's easier than ever to write a cross platform game for Android, iOS, XBox, and Windows then it ever was before. I realize that the landscape is wide, but a good developer will recognize that and provide scaling options in their game to compensate. It requires more work on the developer's part, but that's not a fault of the landscape. In many cases in this business as well (and I worked in it briefly when I started my career) deadlines are ridiculous and they are set in stone. I was a lead developer, and defacto manager, and I can't tell you how many times I argued with the producers about needed more development or QA time before we shipped something. I almost always lost those arguments, and consequently we shipped sh!t many times. We were a small shop that mostly did platform conversions (and occasionally rewrites) and since we had a contract with Disney we had a couple of in-house mobile titles. If you played J2ME games in the Y2K days and you swear it ran better on another handset than the one you were playing on then it was probably one of our ports :P.
The problem you lament about is both a blessing and a curse though, and the primary reason why PC gaming will always > console gaming. Consoles are obsolete when they are released. There is no way, in many cases, to upgrade the console to take advantage of newer technology. You have to wait for the next generation, which, when it's released, will also be obsolete. In the meantime with PC gaming, if I have the money, I can upgrade my memory, my hard drive to an SD drive, and I can buy a better card. I can even go so far as upgrading my motherboard to take advantage of the next generation of CPUs. As long as the memory technology doesn't change (from DDR4 to DDR5 for example), then everything else is reusable. Even if memory technology changes, then that would be considered part of the upgrade cost.
Very informative post. Thank you for sharing your POV
It’s also a positive that consoles can’t be upgraded because you actually get a tailored experience for a single platform as opposed to all the things that can come up on PC. In the case of bad ports throwing better hardware at the issue only goes so far if there are underlying issues. I really don’t think either is better than the other, both have pros and cons.
@@Edmundostudios it means as the generation goes on the console version will be running of even lower graphics settings, perform at lower res and/or frames to keep up. Also it sucks how classic games are stuck at the same performance on a ps5 or series as it did on the previous gen console - for example 30fps at 1080p for arkham knight on a ps5.
@@Edmundostudios how about the complex titles designed from scratch taking complete advantage of the hardware. Your BoTWs, Ocarina of Time, Super Mario 64, Last of Us PS3 etc.I’d argue we wouldn’t have real games any of the true greats without these limitations. This guy is just making the same old tired arguement of oh 64gbs of ram is better. New SaM feature new so better so must have it. It’s flawed reasoning.
Now that you bring up negotiating development time and contracts
Do you think agile aproaches like scrum had a hand at the current phenomenon of games being released in a so called "unfinished" state? Do you think this might be an indirect consequence of the "shippable" product increment approach?
It's a genuine question born from curiosity. I've been recently studying agile methodologies and I couldn't help but wonder about that. I obviously don't expect it to be as simple as that
Emulation is honestly about 70% of the time i spend gaming on pc for the last 2 years now, we're really taking it for granted these days but some years ago i couldn't wait to run games like mgs hd collection or rdr1 through emulation from start to finish without experiencing fps drops or glitches.
What emulators do you recommend for people to use?
Emulation and source ports of older games are two of the best things about PC gaming imo.
@@turtato2155 ppsspp > psp
desmume > nds
mgba > gba
dolphin > gamecube + wii + also gba
@@yewtewbstew547 Source ports are pretty amazing but only exist if a game's code is released or leaked
@@turtato2155 MAME64, Flycast, Domustation, PCSX2, RPCS3, Xemu & cxbx Reloaded, Xenia, Masen, Snes9x, Project64, Dolphin, Cemu, Ryujinx & YUZU
2:52 man looks like he dropped the nuke on accident
real talk I've had the same reaction almost dropping my steam deck
Oof, dropping an expensive item that there's a 50/50 chance you might've destroyed does that.
I have never really experienced shader compilation on my pc outside of emulation, and even that, as you said, now has asynchronous shader compilation via vulkan. The only issue I've ever had is setting my monitor to a rated hertz (120), only for it to have frame pacing issues, a stutter that you can set your clock to. Setting it to 119hz fixed the issue.
Play a newly released unreal 4 game and U gonna see it
@@dante19890 i played mw2 when it came out. the shaders were shitting itself.
10:14 it cuts off right there, but I totally agree with your point, plus I've been checking out the emulation of the Metroid Prime trilogy because while the Prime remaster was amazing and out of the blue, I'm still just admittingly impatient to wait for Nintendo to remaster 2 more of these fucking things while also trying to simultaneously get Metroid Prime 4 finished, like that seems like a lot on Nintendo's plate, so I'm just making it easier on both them and me in my eyes ;)
I wanted to stream Xenoblade X for a friend so I finally set up Cemu, and that was a huge issue. My computer could beast through the game, but all of the shaders would make it a complete mess. The biggest recommendation was just to start a dummy file, cheat a mech and flight module early, and fly over every goddman area and every enemy you can, and then the only ones left to compile would be effects, npcs, and locations exclusive to battles and story events.
cemu has an async shader compilation option so you shouldnt have any stuttering issues, ive played xbx myself on cemu and it didnt stutter
2:50
we MUST know what the thing that fell was
The Steam Deck
@@Soup-man Oof
I'm sad you didn't talk about Dolphin's shader stutter solution beyond that brief mention. I think their solution has some value; having a sort of intermediary shader cache that can be used for compilation across multiple different system configurations would help mitigate the stutter a lot. Sure, that might not be feasible to implement on a per-game basis, but if it's available as an engine-level feature, that really could help. Of course, how much that would help is subject to whether or not the devs actually do the work of caching all the shaders, but if they don't we'd be able to share our caches with one another without worry.
This is actually what Steam does with OpenGL and Vulkan games. If you have a given PC config it will actually sync the shaders with the steam cloud.
thats why im happy that ive got the steam deck. for some reason i spend more time fixing some stuff in pc just to get the game working and finding the sweet spot experience but most of the time still cant get it. on the other hand with steam deck it feels like just plug and play, although its not powerful to play aaa games but i realized i enjoy more indie games and discovering more good games from them. and that just gave me joy
I agree, I just played dead space on a rtx 4080 and it ran at high frame rates, but had terrible stuttering issues
Its not a hardware spec problem , its a PC I/O problem. The new consoles are still way ahead of pc when it comes to moving huge chunks of data around effeciently, bypassing the cpu.
We need direct storage on pc to mitigage this problem
this issue happened allot to me when Fortnite went unreal 5. ever since i've swapped to a series X. i've been converted back to a console gamer because of how inconsistent it was to play games on pc. my pc is now an emulation and indie game machine
Definitely there are issues with all the variables that play to make shader compilation stutter a thing. However also there's the problem that I came across learning to develop games and is the speed that some projects are made. Unreal Engine is a great target to point at because (in my opinion) the way that the UE5 puts in front of you tools to develop a game. Stuff like putting in a single project thousands of elements and the engine "takes care" of everything else. Is a great technology, yes. But at the speed of development come something to sacrifice, (at least I and the youtuber @CodeAesthetic thinks so) what comes to sacrifice is either adaptability or performance. UE5 have great tools to take great care of the the 3 things (performance, adaptability and speed of development) but the easiest way to either start making something or make a huge game in not much time (and sometimes care) is focus only in the speed of development, adaptability comes almost automatically if the devs have a minimum idea what they are doing. But performance, require a lot more work that can not be done at the same time that having a ultrasonic developing, at least in the style that a lot of games seems to take. By taking a concept, making a mockup or something and then expand in the mockup or go full speed head first to developing something that sounds catchy. The result always seems to be a lot of assets, a lot of modular pieces smooshed together to try economize time and effort. Instead of investing some time to think how the game should work, use what is necessary and making things at the size of the need.
Sugar honey ice tea. Again I'v wasted 15 min to put a comment in the sea of the internet. Who cares? LOL
Lol that sudden self awareness at the end 😂😂😂 was very informative though
4090 and experience stutter ingame. The data storage use is so inefficient generally on all pcs to the point that it just drives me insane that a console runs better than a good PC.
100% true.
Great discussion. Personally I've always been a console gamer, but only coz i enjoy gaming on the couch laid back. I like the game preservation and the wonders and performance that PC gives but I don't think it'll ever bring me over when it comes back to the laid back convenience of just picking up a controller and bumming on the couch gaming without all the permutations
Cemu, the WiiU emulator, implemented asynchronous shaders that just renders the game without shaders until the shaders are compiled, not pausing the game like many other games
This is been something that’s been on my mind as well and time and time again when I do my research into it it comes down to backwards compatibility. Graphics api’s should 100% be looked at but guess what, optimizing for an rtx card screws over all gtx cards suddenly. I also wanted to give my example of a game that I had zero issues with in contrary to a lot of ps4 to pc ports namely spiderman remastered. Sure this might not be an exact 1 to 1 port but it runs beautifully. On the other hand we got the sequel which happens to, surprisingly, run worse for me and I don’t know if that’s because less time and thought has been put in to arising issues with shaders or general graphical improvements
When you dropped the steam deck at 2:51, I also made the same face when I dropped mines lmao
It gets serious when Muta doesn't laugh at this serious matter regarding PC gaming in general.
I love that you are out here preaching the importance of game preservation and online communities that work to keep these games alive and well as tech evolves. Not necessarily the point of this vid in particular, but god bless you and keep you.
Muta pulling a Linus like a pro.
About stutter, yeah, I lost a gunfight yesterday on WZ2 because my game stuttered the moment red alert triggered, I flicked the mouse, a huge stutter and I was already getting shot, no chance of reaction. I watched the kill cam, my character didnt fluidly moved, it just instantly spinned from back to front and died. Its a game Im seriosly considering playing on PS5.
A game that did an amazing job on shader compilation is HiFi Rush, since the game is based on levels and a lot of level have loading zones when walking between doors, a lot of the shader compiling is done during the door transition animation, where you dont control the character, there is a massive stutter, yes, but on those few seconds you just walk thru a door and its stutter free until the next loading zone
Thanks for covering more technical concept it's always interesting to follow your explanations
Crazy the range of FPS I get in Hogwarts, 90 here, 110 there, 45 THERE. Real fun. Stuttering can be an issue too in that game, I just hope they patch it to perform more consistently.
Patching wont fix it. Its an asset streaming issue. You can reduce the stutters somewhat by lowering the texture quality. We need Direct Storage or else every game is gonna turn into stuttering messes cuz pc legacy I/O isnt equipped to handle this massive level of data effeciently.
Stutter on PC vr is the only reason why I bought the psvr2, the stutters bother me so much, and its nice that the ps5 doesn't have any stutters at all. Also RE8 might be the most fun vr game I've ever played
100% agree, I play on PS5 and pc so notice it all the time. I sometimes buy games on steam play them think to myself it is stuttering, end up refunding it and buying on PS5 only to notice its smooter instantly. Cant see this issue going away anytime soon either
My main concern right now is the lifespan of your steamdeck muta. @2:55 looked very traumatizing. I felt that look whole heartedly
2:50*
2020 muda: i dont like playing on console
2021 muda: i emulate old games on my pc
2022 muda: pirate games that are gonna be lost forever
2023 muda: pc gaming is becoming problematic
Me: very confused
I think the next step in PC gameing hardware in general will be a more integrated architecture where CPU, GPU and RAM chiplets are on a single package.
This will reduce the amount of pc combinations developers will now only optimise for known hardware combinations, insted of thousads.
10:13 Wish I could have seen that epic battle between future Muta and past Muta to see who would finish the vid.
The stutters I got in the FF7 remake cutscenes is the only reason I haven't actually played the game past the intro still.
this is one of my biggest pet peeves in PC gaming - why are all the increases in relation to raytracing, shadows, shaders, and lighting effects.
I just care about level of detail and texture, I typically turn all the lighting settings to low if not off, but many AAA games of late have only had a few options available outside of raytracing, which is just ridiculous
My only issue is how people will react to my personal decision of emulating old games.
I do the same, and personally I think it's really cool
Bruh
I’ve got no issue with that.
Those people are stupid just do it
@The wanderer That's also a great way to look at it, I also like how I can make the games look and sometimes run better than on their original hardware.
14:49, whoa, Denuvo DRM wasn't removed, it was simply bypassed. Performance is still identical across both versions.
I’ve heard it said that Denuvo is being emulated in the background of the hogwarts legacy scene release. Stuttering isn’t alleviated in it, it’s an issue there too. I think we did see in the scene release of RE8 some stuttering issues relieved from removing Denuvo. But yeah this is a great video, saying out loud what I’ve been thinking the past couple years. Considering a PS5 now, already with a high end system and I’ve been PC gaming for 20 years
Glad someone brought it up also it seems like every game im interested in had issues on pc so i just moved to ps5. I was a pc gamer for quite long but things are just ridiculous now.
I'm of the mind that I don't need to play a new game __immediately__. As much as I love games that aren't broken at launch, I'm fine playing them a year late too.
And also 2 decades later. And because of that I'll never go back to console gaming.
@@bikechan9903can’t help but agree. Used to be a hardcore console gamer for YEARS. I got into over gaming around the early 2010s and never looked back. I still have my ps4 I brought back then and have a few games for it, but it sits and collects dust. I do love my ps3 though, play it ever once and awhile for nostalgia reasons.
Strangely, in Hogwarts Legacy specifically i am having more of a asset loading FPS drop (down to 20-30 at 1% and 0.1% low on specific time frames...), rather than stutter. Happens at same places or same actions (quick turn in crowded place) every time.
They did do a patch which helps alot and actually makes the game playable. But framerates are a bit all over the place still. But i don't actually get entite freeze frames. Just low fps rarely now.
Make sure u have it installed on an NVME or at least an ssd
@@JailerGamer Some obvious things you telling me.
Of course it is on NVME... UE4 is just shit
I played (and still play) Cyberpunk on i3 6100 3.70GHz and RX 470 4GB, and I've never had any stutters or performance issues (even on 1.0 version of the game), so they have to be doing something right. (might be just the lack of DRM)
I don't understand why we can't just run an optional "benchmark" that will compile the shaders for the whole game (or even parts of it in case of linear games).
I've been using hacks like limiting the frame rate and turning down settings to minimize stutter, but some games I won't even play because the stuttering is so bad. And I have a 5800x3d with tuned 3733 ram and an undervolted 3080 so it's not my pc. This stuttering crap has got to be addressed and fixed industry-wide because it can't keep going on forever.
What I don’t understand is why don’t games have an option to let you precompile all the shaders in the game? Or compile shaders asynchronously as various emulators like Cemu and RPCS3 let you do.
For me it's Hogsmead. That place is like a no-zone when it comes to stuttering.
That episode where Muta broke his Steam deck.
Sharing shaders should be possible as long as we can figure out a good primary key. Software version + driver + card name maybe. While there's variability, there's modes that also exist in terms of what cards large chunks of players use.
One way I think to combat this is by using Async shader compiling which won't freeze the game when compiling shaders but will make the said shaders pop in. I'm 100 percent sure that Vulkan have this but don't know about DirectX
Just a heads-up the Hogwarts legacy crack by empress does not strip the game of the dreaded denuvo DRM. It only bypasses it. The DRM checks and trigger-points are still present in the executable. So it did not in fact gain any performance from the crack unfortunately.
Yeah, but his 2nd point is valid, once a game has been cracked why bother keeping the Denuvo license from that point? You're only worsening the product for the actual paying customers, it serves no purpose.
@@steviewonder0850 contracts with Irdeto
@@mihailcirlig8187 ok?
It’s to the point now where the PC version of new AAA games is the one you DONT wanna play at launch. Case and point Wo-long fallen dynasty.
I've been testing a game recently (cant say what it is right now) and I have been very curious how my 1050 GTX can barely render the textures on objects, but I dont have any lag or stutter while the players with 3060 or 4k+ are having serious visual glitches and problems. I cant see any of the bloom, shadows or RTX time shading, but the game runs phenomenally well. The high end card users are experiencing multiple crashes in comparison. It makes me hesitant about updating.
One of my favourite things about pc gaming is that all of my controllers from 1996 to current work. I dont loose access to those controllers every time a new console / pc upgrade is invented.
I got my first pc on Christmas, and I’ve learned so much from you, thank you❤
To get you another example, when Cyberpunk 2077 came out, I had a GTX1080Ti (currently have a 3080Ti)
I had 0 shader compilation stutters during my gameplay, despite the other issues I did experience at times.
When it comes to Returnal on PC i haven't experienced any stuttering so far and was just saying the other day how it's one of the most well optimized PC ports i've ever played but to be fair i also only play it at 60fps tho it is in 4K at max settings.
But i do agree that with how much money the gaming industry is making the manufacturers of the hardware needs to step it up and work together with game devs to alleviate some of these issues that seem to happen on most new games.
There's a cut at 10:14 which might not be on purpose, might want to check it out
Great video tho, agree your thoughts, however people chase after convenience, and shader loads are an issue for them all the time
When I saw the deck I was thinking "I wonder if they make cases for the steam deck, I imagine they don't react well to dro-"
0.0
You jinxed him….
Well, in a way the thing that makes PC gaming so amazing and so great is also its single most frustrating aspect. That's a catch-22 that no one could have predicted.
One minor correction. While nvidia updates drivers with game releases, amd on the other hand releases signed drivers at best 2-3 times a year. They will release "optional" drivers much more often but I always have massive stability issues with those drivers so i only use signed or "recommended" drivers. Also in games like Hogwarts Legacy i find myself deleting the shader cache folder and recompiling frequently while also utilizing optimization mods. For this particular game the issue was development time and qc rather than hardware compatibility. Game devs and publishers getting rid of announced release dates and focusing on releasing when it's ready will solve imo 99% of these optimization issues.
bruh this was a perfect video to talk about the tarkov problem along with these other games too and you fumbled the bag :(
damn
hogwarts is a great example of graphic stutters but most of the time for me it comes from the spells from multiple npc casting.
Tried the demo of Wo Long today on the PS5, Series X, and my PC. The way that shit ran on PC out of the box was fuckin depressing. That was the order of what performed the best to worst.
Had hope with atomic heart but that seems to be an exception.
Couldn't agree more...I have a fairly high end system with a 5900x, 32GB RAM, dual 1TB NVME and an RTX 4090 and with this kind of hardware I would expect to be able to have the "definitive" gaming experience. To a degree, I do, but these stutters drive me absolutely mental and it makes it really hard, if not impossible to enjoy and get fully immersed in a game. It ALMOST makes me want to go back to being a console gamer again (haven't used one since Xbox 360/PS3), but I just love the freedom a PC gaming experience can give me. I'm also a tinkerer, so I sometimes don't mind having to go and modify config files and install mods or whatever to get a game running up to my standards. But it's getting to the point that almost no amount of dicking around with files will fix some games anymore.
I also agree wholeheartedly that once the game is cracked/pirated, the developers should remove the DRM from the game, especially if it's been shown to be contributing to a games performance problems, like in the case of Hogwarts Legacy. Supposedly the whole point of having Denuvo on a game was in order for it to survive the initial launch phase to hopefully maximize sales. But honestly I think Denuvo hurts sales more than bolsters it. Most people that pirate games weren't ever going to buy your game regardless, they'll just wait until it inevitably gets cracked. But there are tons of people out there that 100% WILL NOT buy your game just because Denuvo is attached to it.
FYI, That stuttering you get in Returnal is not really a shader compilation problem. The game is actively loading new areas into the game so once you get to the gate, it opens straight away. So once you cross this invisible line in the area, it loads the new area behind the door in-front, if you move away, it loads in the area behind you. if you move right, it's loading the area behind the door on the right etc. If you're going to keep moving in the middle bit between all those invisible lines, every time you cross them, it'll stutter to load in the next area. It's probably to compensate for the fact that it's a very fast game and it needs to load-in lots of things really quickly. It wasn't a problem when games were coded to run on slow console HDDs and most PC gamers had a faster SSD, but now consoles have fast SSDs, they are coded differently. That stutter in Returnal happens on PS5 too, just less often.
Same with Dead Space Remake, it loads the next area before you open the door and what I've noticed was that sometimes the game didn't finish loading the next area so when I open the door, it has about half a second gap where I see assets loading in. This was avoided in the original by making you wait between doors for varied amount of time (anywhere between 2-10 seconds) whilst it's loading the next room. These days, it's much quicker so developers don't bother making animations to account for it. Same as Hogwarts. If you are playing on a system with a slower storage drive, between specific points you will either get a small loading symbol or a full loading screen whilst it's loading into the next area of the map. In my case, I have PCI-E gen. 4 driver, so it just stutters a lot when I open those specific doors, but I avoid loading screens entirely. You win some you lose some.
So again, it's loading-in assets, but at the beginning of a game pre-compiled shaders don't fix the problem because games are coded to do it all in the background and be accessible as soon as the gamer wants it. For something like Rainbow, there is no such problem, because it's an older game working with smaller assets in much smaller maps which can be loaded-in in full before the match starts. But the whole map of Hogwarts or Ishimura, or the world of Returnal cannot be loaded-in in its entirety. Our computers don't have enough VRAM, RAM and CPU to process all that data in a single loading window and store it somewhere for the duration. Especially when you have to account for systems made in the last 10 Years and anywhere between 3.5GB and 24GB VRAM, 8-128GB RAM and CPUs starting with 4 core @ 3GHz to 24 core@6GHz and more.
Very well out sir 🤌🏾
What was that solution at 10:15 Muta, you cut yourself off trying to explain it lol
Im just a 3d artist/modeler but man it's no wonder any pc is brought to its knees for a few milisecs, shaders are super elavorate pieces, from ornate walls with full debris layers reactive to damage to steamy ramen bowls with edible noodles, none of that is (if done as shader) statically/tradiotionally modelled with textures added, it's all math and nodes and lots of parametric calculations it's honestly impressive. The liquid inside the bottles in half life alyx that reacts to physics is all just shader trickery too iirc.
I imagine the more games advance the more heavy they get in complex shaders, while the way to compress/decompress/handle them has likely not advanced as much. We were stuck in the ps4 era for very long and its funny that now when the new gen of consoles finally start to take off pcs that were already more powerful when those consoles come out find themselves struggling with how things work.
Yeah, I've also noticed the shader notification when I use the RPCS3. Mostly when I was playing Tekken 6 and Tekken Tag Tournament. Not so much with Time Crisis, but that could be because that game isn't as demanding.
I wanna know if the steam deck is okay
Its a shame that we've slid back into a PC darkage. Rip to the early-late 2010's era
When DX 8/9 and OpenGL 1.5 were popular (aka when shaders were introduced), developers knew to use their loading screens to compile all the shaders that could conceivably be used during gameplay.
Now in the era of Vulkan and DX12, we have asynchronous pipelines, so the game can be played and have the render approximated with poor quality until the real shader for it is done building.
That developers still rely on the former paradigm without even using the loading screens for their intended purpose is just pathetic.
Finally someone is talking about this!!! I'm happy to watch this video even after 9 months,THANK YOU! you forgot to mention Marvel's Spider-Man Miles Morales from 2022 and the previous one,The remastered from 2018. both run at below 30fps on my rtx 3060ti while I get the smoothest exprience in any other game with max settings(FH4-GTA V-Evil West-Control etc...)
-EDIT : these 2 spiderman games tend to use more RAM and CPU rather than VRAM to load textures in!!! that ends up in long freezings while swinging in the city making you wait until the game renders textures then you continue swinging 😑
The problem is optimization. Companies dont give a fuck recently. It was bad PC port after bad PC port for half a decade now. In fact it was bad PC ports for a LOOOONG time now. Been PC gamer since 2001. Before when game was not working, that was it for PC. People would hear about it and mostly avoid the game. Since internet speed increased and DLC, patches and shit became norm, developers are always like release as is and if we get insane outlash we will fix, if not, who cares. The games we got in last two years are not better looking at all. Like people praise hogwarts because its their fan fantasy, but seriously, the game looks just decent in terms of graphics. Nothing special. I mean it runs worse than cyberpunk. Like cyberpunk had its big troubles, that is true, but it puts to shame these new games in terms of graphics and performance. Its simply that developers dont give a fuck. Buy 2000 euro GPU and shut the fuck up is their moto. Also the advancment of DLSS and FSR made developers dont give a fuck even more. Slap an FSR code in, its done. FSR and DLSS were made to increase even more FPS and make it go from high 120-130 fps to 180+ and with that high frame rate you wont even notice small artifacts. It was not made so your unoptimized broken game shit can go from unplayable 30 fps to 60 fps whilr running it in performance mode. But fanboys will stay fanboys. No one cared for elden ring and how dare you can say it is horrendous port, same for hogwarts and for COD. Like how the fuck does COD MW2 run so much worse than COD MW2019 when they are 99% same graphics? Like literally go watch Nick930 video comparing graphics. Nothung changed except that performance went to garbage. How? Since they didnt change engine and graphics, shouldnt it run even better now since they had years to further optimize? I guess not. Its the developers, they are at fault. PC players get shafted all the time and i honestly blame PC gamers mindset. When someone complains that the game is running poor on their decent system, usually PC master race retards just bash the people with "you should buy 4090 you poor shit". Its that mentality that makes it even worse and makes people complain less because they only have 3060 and because of that the fps should be complete and utter ass.
As a PC gamer I've been thinking about getting a PS5 just to enjoy new games the way developers intended to.
Honestly why I never got into PC. In general you have to pick and fiddle with all the settings to see what makes it work and look best. Console is just plug n play.
@@hazelcrispAnd if something goes wrong, I know the console is at fault.
If I'm on the PC and something goes wrong, guess I'm doing some work to find the problem before playing the actual game
Steam downloading shader cache is not just for steam deck, it also does this on the desktop linux client, at least that is my understanding of it based on the description in the applications settings.
That said, running games on wine/proton tends to come with its own performance drawbacks.
In any case, if async shader compilation becomes more common place it will help mitigate this issue overall, I know general purpose engines like Unity and Godot support it.
Can we maybe make shader compiling a background task that our PCs can do while we do less demanding stuff like browse the internet?
Of course that would require a background service that runs parts of a game while there are unused resources.
The only time where that doesn’t work is "out of the box" performance right after downloading.
Pour one out for Muta's Steam Deck. Hope it still works.
Lmao that steam deck falling caught me off guard 😂
Lmao his face though. Also damn, seems like there are new bots every month
I instantly had to scan the comments. THE MEME IS BORN 👌🏽
My desktop has a 3080ti in it and when I tried loading up BOTW on Cemu it was pretty stuttery until I grabbed the shaders from my laptop, which has a 3050ti and ran the game at 1080p60FPS no stuttering and instantly fixed the issue. My laptop and desktop, while very different in terms of performance, share the exact same architectures: a Ryzen 9 5900HS vs Ryzen 9 5900x, a 3050ti vs a 3080ti, 16GB vs 32GB of ram respectively and a Gen 3 1TB SSD vs Gen 4 1TB SSD. Both systems are using Zen 3/Ampere/DDR4/NVMe configs and that I'm basically sure that shaders aren't super picky about the hardware they run on but I don't how Cemu's shaders work compared to the AAA games I run on my desktop/laptop. Cemu just seems like a good way to benchmark how shaders issues can fixed.
And the Steam shader cache, afaik, is shared between users so that users with similar hardware configs can share the same shader data and basically make the problem non existent within a few days of the games launch. Only games I can think of that I've had shader related stuttering, other than in emulators, were GTA V and Jedi Fallen Order and both seem to be fine on my desktop as of late.
I've noticed this get worse even on the same hardware ever since SSDs got popular and I'm still stuck using HDDs. It's as if games now expect storage to be fast for everyone so just load things during the action they wouldn't dare attempt before SSDs were popular. It might just be coincidence that the shaders are being compiled along side newly loaded in stuff rather than being the main cause of it. It happens sometimes with just sounds here even.
It's why as a PC gamer I decide to avoid the majority of AAA and live service games because, aside from their other well documented issues, they're the games that are hit the hardest by this issue, forcing developers to create their own compilation programs but even they can't fully solve the problem. So I just tend to stick to older games, indies, emulators and source ports of old games like Doom, since they seem the least affected by this problem and are just far better experiences overall imo.
Atomic heart has shader compiling at the start which I think works well. My framerates are almost maxed and it's quite consistent
Unfortunately atomic heart is the exception not the rule. Literally every new game that has recently released before and after it has stutter issues even with pre-shader compilation with wo long fallen dynasty being the latter.
The thing is muda, one of the most underlying issues IS denuvo, it essentially constantly checking to make sure the copy of the game the player is using is a legit copy which means there is a another layer of processes running that is unnecessary.
That being said, denuvo may get better later on. However, denuvo is not going anywhere because at the end of the day denuvo and DRM is winning because the "cracking scene" is a small team at this point. Most of those people called it quits because denuvo is getting that sophisticated and it's only going to get much harder to crack as time moves forward and even indie game are starting to adopt it so the whole meme of "sailing the high seas" isn't going to be a thing for PC gaming in the future. Add that and PC components getting to where it was back in the early 2000s and all consoles need is maybe another decade and it may be the much better option moving forward.
@15:10 I agree 100%, this is a brilliant idea that companies should embrace. If they pay for DRM and that DRM gets cracked, at that point it only serves to inconvenience the paying customers and should be removed entirely. On top of that, that should create an incentive between publishers and DRM developers to haggle how much DRM is actually worth in dollars. Maybe have a contract where they have to guarantee the game won't be cracked for a certain amount of time and if it is, the DRM devs get penalized somehow. Maybe it will eventually make the entire DRM market die.
Console gaming is best. It's more reliable and one doesn't have to worry about the nonsense of gfx cards, drivers, RAM, etc... so a headache. In a console you just pop a game in and after a few minutes of initial install you are playing at optimum level, according to the console you have.