The Sketchy Truth About Aftermarket Brake Pads
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- čas přidán 21. 09. 2023
- Let's peel back the friction material on different aftermarket brake pads!
We'll examine five different brake pads to see how they differ internally.
Sponsored By NRS Brakes - www.nrsbrakes.com
There are four fundamental elements of brake pad design that play a critical role in brake functionality and safety. Rust protection for the backing plate, how you attach the friction material to the backing plate, the flatness of the backing plate, and the tolerances of the abutment areas, ensuring the pads slide smoothly within the caliper.
In this video, we’re focusing on just one aspect, the attachment of the friction material to the backing plate. We'll inspect five different brake pads: one original equipment, one from NRS Brakes, and three other aftermarket companies. You'll very clearly see the original equipment pads use mechanical attachment, as does NRS, yet two of the aftermarket companies do not.
Mechanical attachment uses hooks to ensure a very secure bond between the friction material and the backing plate, which is especially important for applications that see high heat. Heat can break down adhesives, whereas the mechanical attachment will remain strong. Yes, you can buy brake pads designed for the exact same vehicle, without ever knowing that they don’t feature the technology that the original equipment pads specify.
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I worked in aftermarket parts cataloging for about 8 years. The FMSI book was a basically a bible. Data changes by the supplier is the biggest achilles heel, resulting in "these pads don't fit my vehicle" complaints. I still learned quite a bit from this one! very interesting.
12 years in the aftermarket cataloging and PIM development. Probably worked with all the suppliers mentioned here. You can generally know how much they care about FMSI specs.
This is valid for track vehicles and work vehicles. Let’s face it, majority of us have never overheated brakes like that and have never had friction material separate from the backing plate.
Lol this whole video is a paid advertising and he doesn't disclaim it as such. Like did you have any doubt he would NRS brakes the best of this bunch?
Shoot over all quality is bad for aftermarket parts even oe replacements got my brakes redone and they are done after 3 months of normal driving mind you I might have put 3k on it and I have a warped rotor and completely worn pads...
In my lifetime, I've never had a brake pad fail on ME. I just buy the mid-range Advance/Autozone/NAPA/O'Reilly pads. Whatever is convenient. I do not drive a racecar or a work vehicle.
Yeah - as stated in the video - all the demo pads shown are for a heavy-duty truck (though a ton of folks buy/drive this truck in the US).
It's a concern for trucks and rv's. Its pretty easy to cook your brakes on a long incline. I'm about to pickup a 20500 gvwr motorhome and that amount of weight generates a tremendous amount of heat.
**Lots of discussion in the comments, let's address the major points!**
1. To be clear, as stated in the video, this is about applications where the OE specifies mechanical attachment (heavy duty trucking, towing, some track cars, etc). You can see an image of these types of vehicles at 12:40 in the video. *If the OE does not specify it needs mechanical attachment, I'm not here to say it does!* I think OEs are smart and know what they're doing. The tech (mechanical and adhesives) has been around long enough for them to decide, based on the application.
2. How often does failure occur (for the "I've never seen a brake pad fall off" queries)? Safety is a probability game. Even if the chances of failure are very small, when you're talking tens of millions of vehicles, getting different quality replacement pads, then it becomes a reality. NRS gave a presentation at SAE where they pulled numerous examples from NHTSA where pad separation was failure point and cause of the accident. Unfortunately, it does happen.
3. 8 Day Oven Test (addressing "my car doesn't drive downhill for 8 days"). This is providing a method for understanding adhesive failure over a long period of time. It doesn't happen all at once (you could get 50,000 miles, or more, on the pads). In high heat applications, that heat can break down the adhesives, as the data showed. *Edit:* Worth mentioning, as the adhesive breaks down on the backing plate, this makes it easier for rust to creep in behind the friction material. This leads to rust jacking (as shown in the video), which eventually can fully separate the friction material from the pad.
4. What's the point? The point is for these specific OE applications, there are aftermarket brands saying they're essentially OE replacement pads, yet they're not playing by the same criteria as the OE. There should be an easy way for consumers to know. I found that fascinating, so when NRS approached me about a video on it, I was in.
5. Lastly, I appreciate all the pressure in the comments; it improves things long term! I do think I could have explained certain aspect better, after reading through here. Also, I think it could be a really interesting test to put the pads from the video through the 8 day 550ºF test. For what it's worth, I take sponsorship very seriously, and turn down probably 95% (if not more) of the offers that come my way. I thought this was a really interesting subject to learn about, and I have worked with NRS in the past, so I was happy to work together on this video.
What would make things better for next time? I'm open to your feedback, thanks!
Great work 👍
Good work, be nice to see something like this for track pads. Maybe more importantly how the whole brake system has to work in those high stress environments.
This post pretty much addresses all my concerns with the video. My only remaining questions are about the glue. Are there glues out there that would perform as good as the mechanical interface? Was the glue used the same kind as those brake pads that aren't using the mechanical interface but should?
I work in stress testing and reliability, of semi-conductor parts but a lot of the methodology is the similar. On of the things that hard to get through to new people is the idea of accelerated life spans, ie. how can we show that a part will fail in five years vs 3, when we only test them for a few days/weeks? It seems the idea of cumulative stress is pretty unintuitive to people. "If I don't push it hard enough to break it immediately, it will never break."
I know the reasons behind the choice (I think) but I really don't like the hiding of brand names behind "a leading supplier" or such terms. These companies but products up for sale that anyone can buy, just name them! It is fairly easy to find out what products are from what companies if you do some research but it shouldn't be this way in my opinion. You say " they're not playing by the same criteria as the OE. There should be an easy way for consumers to know.", so tell us the names so we know!
On a positive note great job breaking down the oven test chart in a concise way. Always look forward to your videos, hope you are doing well.
Did NRS provide the cutaway pads from the competition? Seems important to disclose this if true.
If you cut them yourself please share your method. I would like to investigate my favorite brand myself.
NRS did the cutting (hence the beautiful cuts, which are done with machinery I don't have access too haha). I selected the vehicle, and we picked out numerous sets for it. I have the boxes with the full set of pads, and verified all part numbers (part numbers are not shown in the video).
@@EngineeringExplainedIn future, if you want reach out to me. I’d be happy to use our CNC mills or lathes to help you dissect anything you want with nice pretty cuts.
A 4.5 inch angle grinder will make those cuts just fine. Put it in a bench vise and wear eye protection and an N95 dust mask. You can even hold a Shop-Vac right behind the wheel for dust collection.
The only time I've seen pads separate in years of being a tech. Mostly it's been from excess heat being introduced from leaking wheel bearings or cylinders or CV joints. So many vehicle malfunctions are purely owner neglect.
So you know people neglect car maintenance. Then you know that craitical safety parts like brakes must survive these harsh conditions in order to save lives.
@@536joeor follow rhe manual thats given when you by the car.
@@536joe True, but you can only cater so much to stupidity before you just give up and let them figure it out.
@@536joewhen someone wears their brakes down so much the lining is gone and the metal to metal grinding noise is ignored and if they keep driving for another week or so the backing plate spits out and the piston starts grinding itself away. This after listening to the wear tab squealing for months. Then the noise of partial metal to metal contact for weeks. The brakes actually still stop the car while this is going on. No amount of over engineering of a glue joint will account for that. Regular maintenance by good mechanics is far more essential than parts choice.
In northern NY I've seen quite a lot of brake pads separate. Every one had rust between the metal backing and the friction material. Usually only on vehicles 10 or more years old with original brakes still fitted. Think limited usage vehicles like motor homes.
Adhesive vs cohesive failure. My preference is always a mechanical attachment vs adhesion which is also very appicable in roof design. Good presentation!
The problem with riveting is the shear resistance is a fraction of that of bonding! Just mechanical attachment is a risky technique! Bonding and riveting is superior! Btw I’m not a roofer I’m a mechanic that did my apprenticeship bonding and riveting clutches and brakes!
Talking about roofs, I had a polycarbonate roof delaminate on my 10 year old premium European car. Finding a body shop to glue it back on was a bit of an ordeal.
Generally I like your videos, but this one is just a promotional video for NRS. The test shown has nothing to do with reality and only pads with a machanical retention can pass it. A common OE customer requirement is to shear the pads after a performance test specified by the OE customer. It is very rare for pads to see 550°C in the glue area as the temperature continues to decrease from the friction surface to the backign plate. This could happen with long track use, but at these high temperatures the coefficient of friction also decreases significantly and the driver would notice that the brake is overheating. There are many OE applications that only use glued pads and it works just fine.
Yes - majority of OE applications use adhesive, this video is in reference to heavy duty applications, towing, etc.
He specifically stated in the video its for heavy duty only.
Tommy boy would be proud 😂
I get that you can't reveal brands, but that kinda makes this data useless to us. I've never even had friction material separate on any vehicle, so it's really a non-issue for me. I care more about the friction material itself.
Well he says "it's for high performance vehicles" which means this video should be useless to anyone else....
And trucks, which covers a good amount of common vehicles
@@rfehr613 i only buy Callahan parts
Back when i was young, we would cut holes in the footwells and use our feet to stop the vehicle! - Fred F.
Callahan brake pads are the best.
I’ve been running akebono ceramic pads with zimmerman rotors and they last anywhere from 5-7years depending on the driving. Perform like Audi’s oem pads but without all the dust. Have used multiple sets across 3 different vehicles and never had an issue.
Thats great but not the point.
The point is that some OEM specifies that mechanical attachment is required due to the duty of the car and aftermarket ignores it.
With data supporting that mechanical attachment is safer.
I've heard akebono pads offer less initial bite than OE pads, have you found that to be true?
@@busterscrugsnot OP but I definitely have. I still run them because they create so much less dust on the gl450, but it’s definitely something to be aware of. I also run brembo stock replacement rotors fyi.
love my akebono ceramic pads for the less dust and long life
@@busterscrugs Yes, I've had this experience. Audi OE pads have an aggressive initial bite, so the softer bite with light pedal was preferred on my end. It lets me decide how hard I want them to bite using the Akebono pads. The decrease in dust is significant and stopping power is still there. I've used them on an S4 and SQ5 from autocross to towing trailers through the Appalachian Mountains, no complaints.
I was worried about my EBC brake pads so I looked it up. Not only do they use NRS hooks on their pads, but they also use an adhesive to keep water out and provide an extra layer of protection. Let's just say I'm extra satisfied now.
I've always had good luck with EBC pads, personally. I've used them on a few vehicles, and still have them on my motorcycle.
@@malerra I have them on my 1 ton and my wife's van. Frankly if you set them properly and reseat them if they sit too long I cant imagine a better heavy duty brake pad. For the record I got them for the pickup almost 13 years ago after experiencing brake fade in Colorado with the oem brakes. I swapped out the rotors with slotted ones and ebc green stuff and haven't had brake fade since. Now that I think about it I meant to get high temp brake fluid too, but forgot.
I love my EBC yellows!
I use them on my jeep wrangler, i like them. Stops really fast, it did stock tho. Much faster than the diesel pickups i have driven, the FORDS were the worst
I'm either gonna go with EBC or Hawk brake pads for my next Change. And I'm honestly more worried about the quality of the actual friction compound.
And hell, it's gonna be enough for a aggressively driven Miata
I gotta say, 45 years of driving, 20+ vehicles, trucks, trucks pulling trailers, sports cars, family cars, motorcycles, I've never had the pads detach from the backing plate. Name brand or cheaper pads I'm pretty sure most or even all were glued. I'm sure it happens. I have had them crack and chip though, but not glue failure.
In fact, some cars have structural parts that are attached adhesively. Lot’s of BMW’s and Tesla Model S and X.
Cars are getting heavier and faster so this might start becoming more relevant. All these electric pick up trucks coming and they will weigh 8-10k lb. They do have regenerative braking, but let's hope OEMs don't use that as incentive to undersized the brakes where in the times you have to stomp then, heat cycles don't weaken the adhesive.
Same. 7 vehicles so far, all driven pretty agressively and never had this happen. Only buy brembo and EBC though.
I've seen adhesive failure one time. It was on almost new OEM brake pads, like a few weeks in use. No overheating, no very aggressive driving, no rust. Just have fallen apart on a casual inspection. Never seen this again on the same OEM pads
@@user-pk8fr8ix6dmust've been bad luck. Some bad batch of resin or something.
Here in the New England rust/salt belt, besides rust jacking on the pads, you also have to worry about rust/salt on the entire caliper and pins. Frozen calipers can result in very uneven wear on any pad which can break/chip/overheat them. So even if you have a perfect pad with mechanical attachment, perfect rust-free backing plate, etc, you still have to worry about the rest of the components failing due to rust/salt.
Use permatex extreme brake grease they resist -40-2000f and resist dust very well
In the rust belt driving lower mileages I never would even make it to the end of brake pads I would always end up having to replace one that locked up & would just replace the whole axle at once.
I usually take the 30 minutes to just take the brakes apart and grease them when I rotate wheels or swap winter wheels. My last 'daily' car the front calipers are original but rears failed after 15 years because I didn't pay as much attention and they didn't move as much (2-3 sets of fronts to one set of rear pads).
I have a feeling rust jacking is what caused 3 sets of Hawk pads to separate. They would barley last 2years, 15k miles.
The main issue I have with OE is actually not the pads themselves but charging $30 for brake hardware (clips) and $30 for shims. Almost as much as the brakes cost, in this case Toyota/Lexus and using Akebono pads
Agreed, that’s the reason I purchased Power Stop rotors/pads is because it included all new hardware. Next time I’m going to bite the bullet and purchase all the OEM parts for my 2011 Acura MDX because I’m guessing Acura/Honda use quality pads like you stated for Toyota/Lexus.
Or with volvo, who uses (if im not mistaken) ATE brake parts. OEM discs and pads are 250 euro's per axle. For 220 euro's i could also purchase brembo perforated discs and upgraded compound pads, while i can purchase some slider pins, rubbers and good lube for the remaining 30 euro's. ATE's brakes without the OEM badge are nearly half of the OEM price too. All of that for just a manufacturer's stamp.........
The next time I put my car in an oven for 8 days, I'm 100% gonna make sure my brakes are of high enough quality
You must not live in Arizona. Lol
@@bjchase55 true! Ovenzona
Like Texas?
I started replacing brakes with OE only several years. After numerous brake jobs with pads and rotors from auto parts chain, I finally realized I just end up doing the job more often.
Fantastic content. Please continue to share your knowledge and research with us. My eyes were opened when working in professional Motorsports. Brake temps during pit stops were near 750 degrees Fahrenheit
Where's the whiteboard?
With over 30 years of ASTM (I) testing and failure analysis engineering experience, great video!
This is one of the most enlightening videos I’ve seen in a long time. I loved the original test video as well. ❤
Brembo? Bosch?
Wow infomercials are not just for late night cable anymore.
I would have liked to know what other differences were on the brake pads. Besides the attaching method of the friction material to the backing plate.
Thanks for the tons of info here. I've always gone after Cop Car or Severe Duty brakes when it was time to replace OEM brakes. Your report gives a whole new spin, for I hope to have never placed a base adhesive backed pad on any vehicle my family drives.
Will definitely have to check out NRS when it comes time to do brakes on my newer Silverado 2500. The dealer already replaced all the pads under warranty due to excessive brake noise, but even with a 'new part number' pad I had to wait for the noise returns. They want to do pads and rotors now but its no longer covered by warranty, and I''ve never paid someone else to put brakes on the many vehicles I've owned. I've had good luck with many aftermarket pads before, I'll have to research and see if I can find out if they are mechanically bonded or not.
I've changed the brakes on my car many times and never thought about this 🤯 thank you for this video and breaking things down like that 👍
Takeaway- don't keep your brakes above 550 for days on end.
Great video on explaining Break pads, it was a whole lot I never even knew was a thing that got explained and showed in this one - keep educating people Jason!
Always learn something new with these videos. Never even occured to me to question the backing plate attachement before this video!
Super interesting and always erudite, these videos are gems.
My BIL got me into the Autozone lifetime warranty pads couple years ago. Seemed like a good idea at the time as a break job is a pretty easy and quick task and you get to check out everything down there. After the first set died after 14 months, I quickly realized spending a bit more to where they last at least 2-2.5 years is a better use of my time for an extra 10-20 per set.
BIL still thinks hes got a good deal and is doing them every year+.
BRAKES, people, Please!
It kinda depends on how you value your time. I slung hundreds of those pads in a former life as a counter tech. Very, very few people actually made us replace those lifetime warranty pads...mostly it was lots of used car lot jockeys that bought the cheapest Valucraft pads. The cars only had 30 day warranties, so as long as those cheap pads lasted 30 days...that was all they cared about. The most interesting issue we had with the lifetime warranty pads were friction material disintegration on riveted pads...the material would crumble and bam...rivets into the rotors, metal to metal. Ruined the rotors. Naturally only the pads were covered, the rotors became junk. The problem there was that whoever was making the pads, tried making the material last for such a long time they compromised the temperature tolerating ability of the material...it burned off the binder and then the pad began to crumble. Lots of unhappy customers. This was back in the mid eighties.
Now if it's the family truckster that I depend on to get all of us safely from point A to point B...you better believe I'm putting on the best stuff I can find. The best stuff isn't necessarily the most expensive.
I used to work at AutoZone & started buying all my pads there. I do the work myself so a lifetime warranty on the parts in an hour job is worth it to me. If I'm buying expensive pads over and over that 6 month difference is irrelevant if I'm buying the parts again.
Always had great experience with Akebonos.
That’s what I use on all my street cars
These brake pad videos have been amazing. Thank you!
Mechanic of 20yrs here, I've seen a lot of separated pads due to corrosion. I've seen cracked pads from heat and heat cracked rotors. Most commonly separated friction materials I see are drum shoes oddly enough, often parking brake shoes due to rust. I haven't yet seen a pad cooked off a backing plate, not to say it can't happen and doesn't happen but my experience is that rust will get ya before anything else, often the rest of the brakes are seized up pretty hard at that point as well. Sticking slides and pads bound in brackets are very common issues with brakes.
THX, thats a profound reply.
I've only seen pads separate twice, both time the bads were supper thin
In the rust belt, I’ve seen friction separate when salt & corrosion gets between the backing and the friction…usually on cheap pads.
Yeah he’s focused on heat, but let’s be honest… 550 degrees for DAYS is well outside the kind of stresses a normal car sees. To get that you’re hauling things, probably in the mountains. Salt corrosion? A lot more common of an issue.
In Australia my 19 year old car looks almost brand new, no salt or rust.
I got into a jam when a shipment of super premium pads got delayed before a track weekend. Had to make a run to an Oreilly store to buy their Best Pads for the M3.
I put 700 track miles on them and then I ran them a second weekend another 500 miles. Everyone was amazed they did not delaminate. Not as good as the motorsports pad but pretty good. Careful warm up helped keep them in one piece. Temps were over 600 degrees at the end of 10 laps. Should have kept them for analysis. Great video.
I have not seen brake pads delaminating I don't know what they are talking about. This video makes it sound like it's a big problem with glued on pads and it's not.
They're deliberately creating artificial conditions to get them to delaminate, and scare you into buying their brake pads.
I'm sure you need extra good brake pads for a race car though.
Sandy, I am an E36 M3 fanatic. I have installed floating and fixed calipers and every sort of brake pad. I like metallic pads for best performance. The only pads I do not like are NAO. I have worn out a set of these in several weeks. And they dust like crazy.
We had been waiting on a set of Hawk HP, decent balance between track and street. The Hawk track pads (reds/blues) are just too aggressive around town until you warm them up. Good info on the NAO's.
My Volvo C30 had Brembo "oe replacement" pads from the previous owner. When I changed them, one of the right front pads had split in two with the friction material completely separated from the backing plate, no mechanical attachment, just adhesive. And I was traveling to the Nürburgring a few days after, so I'm super glad I upgraded my brakes before I went. Though the previous owner had installed the wrong size front discs, so that is probably the reason why the pad was destroyed, I don't think it would have happened otherwise. Now I have Brembo's XTRA line of pads on the car, and they're working great, though I could not find any information on how the friction material is mounted.
no issues with brembo pads on my porsche, even at the track.
@@tomzphone I'm not saying there are problem with them, I'm just pointing out that it happened on those exact pads, and that it probably would not have with mechanical attachment. Your Porsche's brembo pads are probably 5 times as expensive as the oe brembo's for my platform and most probably use mechanical attachment. The XTRA line on Brembos I upgraded to were amazing on track.
The brembo pads a probably a little different than the OE replacement you used, but they are not that expensive. Only $122 for both front pads.@@VinnesRC
@@tomzphone yeah, the oe replacement brembos for my car is around $30-35. The XTRA pads for my car are around $60-70
@@KM-ol5bs only by those of us who inquired. They have the MAX and XTRA line of discs which are drilled or grooves, and the XTRA pads are for those discs. Only for some cars obviously.
"Includes Paid Promotion" (ya think?)
I've had multiple pads lose their shims because the glue would lose it's adhesive properties when heated. The shims would slip into the hub and make noise. These were TRW pads as well.
Buying OE spec parts is getting harder with all the sellers of very good-looking fakes. So knowing a name brand and where to get them is so helpful. So, thanks for these videos and all the work that goes into making them!
Go to a dealer for OE parts.
That works great when you can or they have a good accessible website. It took some effort but I have found good ones for the brands I own.@@jptrainor
I'll be adding this to my lessons, thank you. Never too old to learn!
I did have a set of pads fall apart. It had rusted in between pad and plate. I do wonder though if those hooks decrease or increase chance of rust forming and glue then having nothing to hold onto
As 20 year quality assurance tech in a brake plant, I can attest to the NRS as excellent (it bent my shear tester after a year of abuse)
How did you know I was researching this topic? 😅😂
*_🍪_*
Great informative video as always! I just literally ordered new pads from a brand name, but will be wondering if they use adhesive or mechanical backing 😐
i've never seen brake pads falling off the backing plate. catastrophic brake failure is a scary thing to worry people about but it is extremely rare. if one brake pad falls off you would still have plenty of redundancy to safely bring your vehicle safely to a stop. remember each wheel has a front and a rear brake pad. GM had a weird recall where brake pads were not installed on one wheel and people drove the cars for tens of thousands of miles and never even noticed! These tests are weird they baked the pads for Multiple days at over 500 degrees which is a temperature your brake fluid will boil and you will have so much brake fade that you would likely pull over the side of the road until your brakes cooled down anyway!
Not saying don't do your research on what you are buying but if you buy from a major brake supplier like AC delco, Raybestos, Akebono, brembo, Bosch you are probably 100 percent fine. I don't trust parts houses brand brakes as you never know what you are actually getting.
I remember the first nrs video with the pad testing! Very impressive just wish they were cheaper!
I’m good with akebono pads and powerstop or stoptech rotors. Used them for decades and always were great.
I remember with those rivet attached linings that if you let the pads/shoes wear down too far, the rivets would score the rotor/drum.
If you run pads with adhesive down to the backing plate it will do the same. Not really the pads fault , that's a lack of maintenance issue. They should never get that low.
The pads/shoes with the rivets will gouge the rotor/drum before the backing plate is reached.@@chexlemeneux8790
No idea what attachment method they use, but I’ve been using Akebono Euro ceramic pads on my Mercedes and they have been great. Much more linear pedal feel, last forever, and almost no brake dust. I’ll never go back to oe pads.
The last set I had used were one of the oe brands and the pad ended up separating from the backing plate from rust after about 4 years. The Akebonos have been on for 4 years so far and no issues.
I am the mechanic for a motley fleet of Ford Chevy Isuzu Toyota trucks that mainly pull trailers stop-n-go around suburbia. Only a couple see highway, ever. Unfortunately the soil in our vehicle park isn't well drained and they frequently have to be parked in puddles for days at a time. Our specific problems are 1) Sliders seizing and wearing out the pad on the piston-side of caliper. 2) Rusting onto the rotor/drum which either rips all or part of the pad/lining apart. 3)Dragging overheating from stuck sliders and or pistons.
#3 above is particularly awful because it always kills the grease seal and when grease gets onto brakes you just have to start all over with brand new stuff.
Over my 20 plus years in the automotive repair industry I’ve seen a few pad separations. Personally I’m all in for mechanical connections, however I’ve seen pad separations on mechanically connected and adhesive bonded pads. While I’m just one tech without any type of scientific method or control, in my experience it doesn’t seem like any one type of connection is more separation proof then the other in real world. Now I’m sure the vehicles I mainly work in and my location in the country have a big influence on that. So it’s entirely likely my experience would be completely different if I was working on a different brand or in a different climate. However I will state that I absolutely have seen galvanized and mechanically connected pads be separated by rust jacking. Galvanized coatings don’t stand a chance against that horrible horrible brine they use on the roads in winter. Just my worthless 2 cents.
Separation of the friction material from the backing plate was a major concern when the industry started to move away from riveted brake shoes and pads. That was rectified in the first 5 years.
I guess with today's increase in weight limits and towing capacities, this might also again become a problem for 0.001% of people who drive trucks.
I believe that the zinc plating that NRS is using might help some, but given it is just plating, I believe it will have its limits as well. I think Jason made a great case, why the mechanically aided pad attachment is a good idea, but how much that really matters in a daily driver setting remains to be seen. Especially since you have mentioned that you have seen both types fail.
The brakes that I recently changed out on my 09 were beginning to separate from the backing plate, which used a mechanical attachment. Unfortunately, I would have to agree that rust jacking will get the best of any brake pad if left on for enough time. The car was not driven much and sat on the side of the road for about a year, so there was plenty of pad material, but the sprayed on brine in the winter killed the rotor and pad within a matter of months.
@@d47000 That brine is horrible, awful, vehicle and metal eating stuff! In the 16 years I was a foreman before the local authorities switched over to the brine, we never had a metal brake line failure. After the first winter, cars started coming in one after the other with brake line failure and within two seasons, major structural failure. Everyone wants to blame the manufacturer but if twenty year old cars are rust free for 18 of those years and then two winters after the brine goes into use, it’s falling apart, I don’t think it’s the manufacturer’s fault. Even my own vehicles went from ok to rusting within one winter. I cleaned everything and applied a preservation wax to stop it. Sadly most people don’t know better.
@@2down4up I feel for you! Nothing more painful than working on a rusty car.
Does this test actually simulate real world usage though? putting brake pads in an oven for 24+ hours? Track use maybe, but even track use will see a pad swap before 24 hours of driving.
It's an accelerated test. Of course it doesn't simulate real world usage. This is to accelerate the aging/heat degradation of the glue and friction material to see what would fail first in a long-term scenario. Brakes are typically used for years, and the damage accumulates over time. These are the types of failures you would see closer to EOL of the brake pad, or in very extreme braking situations potentially.
Accelerated tests are used quite frequently in many industries, despite not simulating real world usage. Simulating real world usage would take much longer to identify primary failure points. For example, in pavements, we use accelerated aging in an oven to simulate long-term real world aging to determine which mixtures are more resistant to cracking than others.
Baking brakes at 550 for 5x24 straight is a testing methodology designed exactly to kill those glues. Hard to think of a more obviously biased 'test'. No doubt mechanical is better, however with the 300 million vehicles on the roads, NHTA could only come up with a handful? Pretty sure if this were anywhere near pervasive, they'd have already addressed this as a Life/Safety issue and mandated mechanical attachement as a minimum.
Unless I missed it, odd that they didn't actually show any of the testing where they sheared off the pads, maybe worried that people would call BS?
Good vid on why we should try to find suppliers that offer Z pad support, but kind of shilly much..
How I wish I could get 24 hours of track use from one set of pads..
Recently I had brake pad fail on me - It was raining and i saw a lot of water collected on the highway and hit the brakes. And There was almost no response. The second pump did the job but I heard noise.(the metal pad on the disk) I was quite lucky and drove home without using the brakes. Now I know there is a better way. Thanks Jason
I installed a PowerStop front brake kit to include cross drilled rotors and carbon ceramic pads on my 2001 Subaru Outback LL Bean [H6] last year, and this spring I did the rears with their kit for the rear brakes. I don't think the car stops any better, but the carbon ceramic pads seem to produce NO dust and the kit was very well done, with complete instructions and most importantly....
Instructions on how to BED THE BRAKES!
If you just put rotors and pads on your car and go and drive it, a year later your pedal will be pulsing. You have to "bed" the pads and rotors, or they WILL warp~
Most cheesy repair shops won't do this properly. Or at all!
Great video!
Also used power stop. They lasted daily driving and track use
Another point to consider, rusting of the backing plate / pad that contains steel fibers. In road salt areas, I've seen pads de laminate as well as the friction material crumble. I'd tend to think that adhesive attachment has an advantage in this case as it seals the friction material to the backing plate rather than a somewhat porous friction material molded to the backing plate.
I think it would be a more realistic test to perform a thermal cycling test to simulate normal driving conditions, though this was a very interesting investigation.
For normal driving conditions, these mechanical attachments are not as important. This video focuses on heavy duty use
Heavy undefined use in a scenario that will never likely happen.
@@deet5072 Sounds to me at least something like riding the brakes going downhill towing a heavy load, surprisingly common for heavy duty stuff since the Earth ain't flat and there's always a need for something heavy to be moved. But if you're doing that you're probably going slow and have the hazards on so there's not a massive amount of heat being generated, but better safe than sorry is something I adhere to unless I'm very strapped for budget
@@deet5072I live in the mountains I use my brakes more often because of hard fast down hills every day, literally dropping and gaining 1000 plus feet , so for me these hard breaking situations are very regular. Idunno just cus you can’t fathom it doesn’t me it doesn’t happen and often. I have lots of neighbors we all talk about how often we go through brakes… again just because it’s not your experience doesn’t meant not only doesn’t happen , but also normally and frequently for other people. 😊
@@LafemmebearMusic Then a more prudent test would be to have heat cycles on and off for predefined period of time. Im sure it was just B roll but if they just slapped on the brakes for hours or turned the roters red hot, this is not what you are going to see reflected in the real world.
I replaced my rotors and pads over the weekend in my 2011 Acura MDX, not sure what brand I pulled off but found the inside pad on my back passenger wheel had separated from the shim. Luckily it had tabs wrapping around the pad as you explained so it was still in place and had not caused any issues.
I ordered some mid level Power Stop rotors/pads 2 days before seeing your video and decided to install and try out for $370 instead of returning and dealing with all that. I’ll be ordering OEM next time after watching, I’m guessing Acura/Honda sources quality parts like what you used as an example in your video.
Your videos rock, thanks for putting the time in for everyone.
Chris
Dagnabbit! It's time for a brakes refresh on my '16 F150... so I ditched the Hawk pads I had planned to use in favor of the NRS for a wee bit more dough. Going to use Centric rotors (put a set on an SVT Focus years ago and was impressed with the rotors' manufacturing quality). Thanks for a timely sales pitch, EE!
I've used some pretty cheap pads. Thankfully I never had an issue but I've also seen factory pads fall apart!
Great info, I had no idea. Pads on my 3/4 ton diesel seem to always have rivets. How about a video where you name names and save us big truck owners time and trouble?
I don't know every brand who does/doesn't, we only tested three. My point was consumers should be able to know, hence the Z-label discussed at the end. But, OE (if required) & NRS will have mechanical.
I worked at an industrial brake manufacturing company, we built brakes for cranes. All of our friction material was glued on. There was an option for riveted but we rarely had any on hand and almost never sold them. Keep in mind these were used as braking units for cranes.
Super interesting. Great video as always!
In 2001, I bought a new Toyota 4Runner. Unbelievably, the front pads lasted slightly more than 200,000 miles. When it came time to replace them I took the car to a random shop near work. Big mistake. Almost immediately my chrome wheels turned black and the pads eventually needed replacement at 20,000 miles. The OEM pads lasted 10-times as long as the crap pads. Are the NRS pads as good or better than OEM? Now, I just bought a use RAV4 that just had new brakes installed and again my wheels are turning black. I think I’ll make a better choice when I replace these.
it's an interesting video but is there any real world testing/evidence that otherwise solid brake pads using glue (not super cheapos) actually fail this way?
Yes! To be fair, (and I hope it's clear) I'm not saying if the OE says you don't need it in your daily, you should think otherwise. But this kind of failure definitely does happen. NRS gave an SAE presentation where they pulled several examples from NHTSA where the pad falling off was the failure point/cause of the accident.
I have had this happen to Brembo pads using adhesive, but I think the reason it happened was because the previous owner had installed the wrong size rotors on the front.
@@EngineeringExplained 'several examples' when there are 300million vehicles in the US seems.... not concerning. And a pad falling off could include improper use/install as well.
I was a mechanic for about 10 years. During that time I did loads of brake jobs, and even here in Texas where rust isn't usually a big deal, I saw plenty of brake pads separated from the backing due to rust. None had mechanical fastening, because the backing plate was nice and smooth (not counting the rust). Also saw a couple cases where people abused them (doing burnouts by holding brake and just overpowering the rear brakes) but those were really obvious by the blueing on the rotors and chunks and cracks in the pads. But yes, brakes do fall apart.
@@Idiomatick speculating the definition of a term with more speculation is useless. Find the real number if you're going to try and start a fight.
What is the real world failure rate (even specific use or industry stats) for this warranting concern?
You are a great engineer, thank you !!!💪👍
Never had any issues with the autozone pads. Been using since they were Albany brand but now I use the duralast gold. O'reilly's pads never separated but wore extremely fast and the rotors cracked easy.
I used to run duralast gold; I loved how they have the lifetime warranty and would get new pads when they wore down 😂 I’d just keep the receipt and swap accordingly when the time came for it. Great value!
I'm not a mechanic, but I've been changing break pads myself in all my cars for the past 20 plus years. I use aftermarket brake pads and not even once had the pads detach from the backing plate. This information is interesting but it will be better if you show us real world application comparison.
Rust jacking is the primary failure.
ive lived in MN for a long time. this is sooooo common here. reguardless of driving style, getting more than a couple winters on brakes is very rare@@ShainAndrews
I had oem plates fail. So it's not oem vs. non-oem. It's technology vs. other technology.
@@y2kmadd or a bad batch maybe?
Yeah...this entire video seems fishy. I've been watching Jason for years and never had a reason to doubt him before, but these seems like a huge focus on a problem that doesn't actually exist. If an OE or major company chooses to select a pad that only uses adhesives, I have no problem with that. A company that's spent decades building their name won't risk large scale lawsuits and government fines if they thought their pads weren't safe. The sheer forces on brake pad material is hardly my primary concern seeing as I've never seen or heard of pad material ever failing on any brake pad. This sounds like a company I've never heard of trying to stir up some business. There's three types of brake pad buyers: the "just goes to the dealership", the "whatever's the cheapest", and the "picks a specific pad for their specific purpose DIYer". The first two aren't watching this video, and the third group has already researched their specific brand for a specific reason. I don't see this oddly specific complaint changing many minds.
Several of the aftermarket pads are being marketed as OEM replacements but don't have the mechanical gripping that true the OEM pads require from the manufacturer. You as the consumer might think you're buying OEM pads that are just as good as the originals when they technically aren't and you'd never know the difference. The video isn't saying that all brake pads everywhere should always be mechanically secured, it's pointing out that companies need to be more clear when slapping an OEM label on their product when it doesn't match the OEM standard.
@@zbaier1 Yes, I'm aware; I have ears. It takes only minimal research to find out who actually makes the pads for the OEMs from Akebono, Brembo, Pagid, Textar, Ate, or whoever. I'm going to trust that they picked the best options to work for their specific pad over some random company that's clearly just trying to poach some customers. My primary concern will always be the pad compound for the application, but thanks for your response straight the HR and marketing department.
@@heyhayhay247 The video is about how the pad secures to the backing, not the pad material.... He's not saying the pad material is not OEM spec but rather that some companies are claiming their pad/backing is OEM when it doesn't meet OEM specs. It's good that you have ears but it still takes a brain. Also, you're complaining about a detailed video highlighting an issue when EE's entire video catalogue is based around detailed videos and mathematical analysis of car issues and designs. Keep worrying ONLY about pad compound case it won't do you any good if that pad doesn't stay secured to the plate...
@@zbaier1 Point to one single study not funded by this brake company that shows cases where pad material seperstion is actually an issue in the real world. My wife and I both has Masters degrees in engineering; that's how we initially found the channel. We have brains to go with our ears. This clearly looks like a solution trying to create an imaginary problem.
Just pointing out your statement "If an OE or major company chooses to select a pad that only uses adhesives, I have no problem with that." and that I don't state anything contrary in the video (see pinned comment). I agree with you!
I do a lot of brake jobs on light duty trucks. I’ve been using Goodyear brand, they do cost a bit more but I’ve had great results. They’re also made in the USA.
Great info, thanks for sharing.
I understand the lab results are solid, but does this happen in real-world use? Are there cases of the friction material detaching from the pads due to adhesive failure?
Also why is there not a small bed in the metal plate where the friction part could nest in? Wouldn't that pretty much compensate for the lateral sliding force?
If you try to visualise it, depending on the depth of the bed at some point it would become part of the friction material brushing against the rotor. Not a good idea.
@@georgivelkov8143 Isn't the same for these small sticking pins?
You'll be alerted for the used pads before that point, and if you don't, the metal will start touching the disk and you'll know it's time for a change. No big deal.
@@nevarran I guess you could be right but at that point the economic side of the story would play a bigger part as you either need to increase the cost or simply sell a pad with technically less material as part of it would be unusable
I was wondering the same thing. Have been doing occasional DIY brake jobs for 3 decades now and have never seen this type of failure. I have checked out NRS pads but they were very expensive and there is little emphasis on pad materials and braking performance.
I would have liked to have seen a shear test that matched the directional forces in real life. My biggest issue with brakes is how quickly the pads break down. Not how well they stick to the backing plate.
I've had the same tbh. I think I need to swap out for a hotter pad and revise the cooling flow. Even RSL29s struggled to cope and that was on Eagle F1 Supersports, not even track day tyres or slicks.
how fast the pads breakdown or wears off depends on hardness of the friction material... a stiffer hardness will give less friction but better wear compare to softer material which has better friction but less durability....
Really great information!!!
Cool video! Thanks for teaching me something new today.
13:29 "smart and easy fix" - not sure about that one... Just slapping a sticker on a box can be done by literally anyone. So it means just as much.
Unless there's penalties for selling brakes that /claim/ to have more than just glue while they don't, I don't see that changing anything other than the boxes.
There are penalties for false advertising...
In my short 5 years auto repair experience I’ve seen a brake pad “shuck the pad” off of the backing plate a handful of times, often resulting in immediate brake caliper blowout due to the increased travel of the piston. Not “super common” but it definitely happens and, for me, it’s always been a, “I replaced the brake pads myself with the cheapest parts I could find.”
Absolutely! It does happen, and for someone who isn't very mechanically aware, it can lead to a super scary situation.
Since watched this video a few days ago, I have been searching for info on how the Akebono ProAct and DBA Pads are assembled (mechanical or adhesive) with no success... Would you or your viewer have insights to finding those info? Thank You!
Very interesting! Thank you for sharing your discoveries!
Im not sure if i agree with their testing method, where they apply a shearing force directly onto the side of the friction material. In real world applications, wouldnt the pads themselves be smushed together, both by the caliper, and some (minor) bending moments created by the disc pulling the material from the top, rather than pushing from the side? I can see the point they are trying to make, that one IS probably theoretically better than the other. It does indeed handle more load, but does it matter in a real world application? A large part of engineering, can be figuring the best cost effective solution, which is still good enough. Its also worth considering, that brakepads is a fairly frequent consumable, in contrast to e.g. the caliper, and the brake line.
There's a shear force generated with the contact (friction between a spinning rotor and a stationary pad), and there's an industry minimum that pads need to pass in shear test (if you're curious, I cover this test in a lot more detail in the previous video). czcams.com/video/DZ8O2tJOGLE/video.htmlsi=1V2UXyGKRkRPVDFj
I personally have never seen a brake pad fail and I'm a mechanic. No doubt that mechanical connection is stronger, but is it necessary? Probably not.
This is basically just for track cars and bigger transport trucks.
Good info. I did not know any of this. Thanks.
I had my HAWK street pads last for close to 80k miles, on my '02 Spec-V. Didn't do too much track, but plenty freeway pulls and daily driven for about 2 years.
The tests results may be accurate, but how well do those tests reflect real-world brake temperatures and shear forces? The only type of failure I heard about cheap pads is that they wear out faster, or don't provide the same stopping force as good ones.
yes EBC brakes has a good explanation for this-most brake pads needs some sort of heat to stop-look up F1 brakes and you will get the point of what im saying.
cheap pads are generally softer and are not that rough on discs-
some pads use softer materials in order to last longer
while some hard brake pad material leads to more disc brake wear but if your car is a sports car it needs that stopping force otherwise you will probably crash...
its imortant to alwasy ask your Car dealer or car service shop for these things
i know that most dealership service mechanics want more money-but i dont trust my local mechanic when we talk about
engine,brakes or suspension... for oil changes and basic stuff fine..otherwise no
I’ve had issues with budget pads over heating and not stopping before. I’ll never use budget pads again for my or my families cars, saving $20 just isn’t worth it.
Which are the 3 undisclosed brands?!?
Only personal experience I've had with friction material separating was a set of new pads my dad put on my ma's Mustang, they were mechanically attached tho
I do have to question if the NRS tests were designed specifically to reduce the effectiveness of adhesives. Which would artificially prove a point that may not be rational. Like if these were baked at temp for days on end with no cooling periods, but if there had been a test better reflecting real life conditions (with intermittent brake useage or varying durations) would the same result occur.
This may not be the case, but because we have so little information about the methodologies... I at least wonder.
None of them are colored so EBC wasn't tested. I'll keep buying them.
Not naming the brands doesn't help anyone. Knowing all the "reputable brands" for brake pads may not be niche for people who do mechanic stuff as a hobby but for everyone else it is.
The video is interesting, but not actually helpful.
I get it, he can’t say to not lose monetization. But it would be super helpful to know the brands.
EBC is what I trust for my fully modified Tacoma. Bites great and lasts long. Even with heavy offroad use. My truck is 30% heavier than stock and stops like OEM. My mechanic was 100% correct when he recommended them.
I've had a yellow stuff pad completely disintegrate on track, once I got back to pits and pulled the caliper off and the pad just fell apart. So absolutely not immune and the yellow stuff is even marketed as a fast road / light track pad. Not doing them again, at least not for fronts.
@@markythegreat EBC specifies their pads Yellow is now only rated for fast street or auto X use. Their blue stuff is the now entry level track. even then they advised that it’s not for hard track like super 200/ compound and fast driver. For legit track RPX or RP1
There is another perspective here with not 'naming and shaming' and a strategy i have personally used. If you want to influence industry wide adoption of best practices then this strategy is really effective. You raise awareness of an industry wide problem and then when everyone is aware of the problem the people who can influence the situation are able to affect change. Clearly those in the industry can identify these parts. If the buyers for Reilly and Autozone act on this information then this will help drive industry change.
Your choice of “quality control” was cherry picked to be worst case for adhesive and best case for the mechanical. What if the nail only protruded a very small amount instead of an inch? I don’t think you can argue that quality control is more of an issue for either method.
It's just one nail to illustrate a point, if there were a bunch of nails, even with small protrusion (like the pad), you get a better hold (for shear forces).
I work a lot on trucks with disc and drum brakes and I have never experienced a glued friction lining come off of the backing plate/brake shoe due to overheating. I had trucks in my shop with deep blue and cracked drums due to extreme overheating, but the glue bonding the linings held up.
I do only see cracked/separated linings due to water ingress/rust in totally clapped out junkers where it is sure that nobody opened or serviced the brakes in the last 30 years. The phenolic glue used to attach brake linings is incredibly strong. Cracked linings on riveted brake shoes is a daily sight for me, btw.
Very informative thanks🤝
What are the rules they are playing ?
I am not sure if I should like such content where a manufacturer develops his own test methods to show that they are better than other - in their own defined test scenario.
When are those sheer force appearing in real world usage ?
Those pads sit on their metalplates holded by the caliper and brake itself.
Feels like a theoretical test to look better than the other and I guess the others would now come up with their tests where they look better.
If glue is the issue get rid of that glue, if heat is the issue look for a better glue in hot environment cause there are glues that work quite well or did I miss that most space shuttles were able to land quite safely ? Maybe 1% crashed due to failure but not sure if that has been caused by glue that did not work anymore.
At least the space shuttle heat protection went through high heats at least once every mission if they had survived.
And here our mechanic has not observed bad brakepads , even the certification engineers that have to check the cars street compliance biannually have not found much complains about brakes in general except if they were not maintained anymore or brake pads / rotors have been used too heavily and had to be replaced cause there was no brake pad anymore or the disc has become too thin.
Several of the aftermarket pads are being marketed as OEM replacements but don't have the mechanical gripping that true the OEM pads require from the manufacturer. You as the consumer might think you're buying OEM pads that are just as good as the originals when they technically aren't and you'd never know the difference. The video isn't saying that all brake pads everywhere should always be mechanically secured, it's pointing out that companies need to be more clear when slapping an OEM label on their product when it doesn't match the OEM standard.
I think that's fair! I think best case we do the same test with each of the different brands (we did this for the previous video).
I don't really think it would change the answer but testing brake material by holding it at temp for hours or days is not real world at all. Repeated heat cycles would be much better.
Also would've taken much longer and been more expensive
I live in the mountains and have two truck based SUVs. I have had good luck with Raybestos hybrid pads with metallic and carbon. They stop well and don't produce much brake dust.
Great video, now I'm questioning my brake choice, I am doing them in the morning and chose the power stop extreme severe duty and towing pads and rotors for my 2017 gmc sierra 1500, I hope they don't come apart while I'm hauling my trailer for work or my travel trailer lol. I will say that I bought the truck with 25k miles on it and had to replace the brakes (front and rear pads and rotors) with the duralast gold pads and rotors at 43k to 46k miles, I am now replacing them at 104k miles, but I drive more conservatively because I hate warped rotors, the only reason I chose them was because I had the driver front pads go metal to metal because the caliber pins where never lubed from the factory on that one caliber and they were sticking, the rest of the pads/caliber pins where fine, and those pads and rotors where the ones I could find in stock at the time .
I work in a shop. In my whole life, I have never seen brake material separate from the backing plate. This video is the definition of fear mongering
I've gotten well over 120,000 miles on a set of shoes and pads with lots of life left. Because I drive with my big head. I know lots of people don't get more than 20,000 from a set.
@@jackhofalot6705 Nah, I'm not that guy at all. I live at 9k ft. and it takes me 9 minutes to do the 12 miles to town on these mountain roads. If you knew me on Facebook you would know my feelings about duffers and tourists stealing from me.
who hurt you?@@jackhofalot6705
Very interesting
....thanks for this 👍
Wow, impressive video!
Thanks.
Let the comment roasting begin... Not sure any of this was practical information. But, you got paid either way.. sooo...
oh man that reverb is killing my ears >.>
I see plenty of rust jacking separating the friction from the backing being a tech in Wisconsin. On my abused f150, excess heat causes the friction to separate from the backing as well. It's gotten to the point of changing pads at every oil change. Once the pad starts to fail, braking performance is reduced and total failure is eminent. I got a fun car with bigger brakes this year and no longer beat on the f150.... as much It needs brakes soon, Ill try some NRS pads out on it
Fascinating. i've found another favorite channel.