Did I miss out by not having an MSX? Was Sir Clive right about their performance? Let's find out!
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- čas přidán 22. 07. 2024
- Today we're looking at the MSX Standard and the Toshiba HX-10, and also specifically at the claims made by Sir Clive Sinclair that they were much less powerful than the ZX Spectrum. This episode has been sponsored by our good friends at PCBWay.com - Check out their website for all your PCB fabrication needs. pcbway.com - PCBs for as little as $5!
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Timestamps:
00:00 Intro
00:47 Sir Clive's Claims
01:49 History
05:01 What's in a name?
05:28 MSX Specifications
06:28 The Spectravideo Link
08:03 MSX vs Spectrum
09:26 And the winner is...
10:00 Wrap up
Attributions
commons.wikimedia.org/w/index...
References
www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/1...
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MSX
www.msx.org
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SV-328
mechafatnick.co.uk/2014/02/27...
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Out_Run
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/ @theretroshack - Věda a technologie
Hope you enjoy this video - I was an MSX virgin before getting hold of this machine but got to say, absolutely love it! There will definitely be more to come on MSX :)
I mean, how can you NOT love a system that has such beautiful machines?!? it.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Yashica-YC64-IMG_0308.JPG
hey, i just wanna say once you get hold of a SD mapper, you will be able to do more than playing games and use MSX-DOS or even Nextor wich is a modern MSX-DOS kernel replacement. and MSX-DOS is defacto MS DOS backported from the 8086 to the z80 by Tim Patterson himself.
@@benoitcolson433 Interestingly enough, MSX-DOS is also fairly compatible with CP/M, and so you can run many CP/M programs on your MSX. (Though I don't know if they implemented terminal emulation in their I/O routines to allow you to run things like WordStar and SuperCalc.)
They both have their flaws and weaknesses. But spectrum is the less complex design since Nobody makes the video chips anymore.
I grew up on the msx 1 hit bit from sony, then philips nms 8250, then philips nms 8280.. those were good years.. i went on to the pc from there but really learned a lot during my time with the msx.. it was *FUN*!!!
Here in Brazil we say that MSX is the most magical computer ever made. As a owner of almost 30 MSXs, I would agree.
Looking for more MSX videos!
PS: The SD 512 cartdrige was created by Brazilian MSX freaks, Fábio Belavenuto and Luciano Sturaro.
Yes especially when it suddenly vanished
I'm certainly loving this machine :)
Most European msx games were poorly ported from the spectrum, that's probably the root of Sinclair claim.
So to summarize: MSX > Spectrum. Well, that's something we the MSX users knew since 1983 or so. 😄
Pistols at dawn! :) :)
I love both. :) Not everything needs to be a dichotomy. Not everything needs to be compared and fought over.
@@IcyTorment Yeah it's a really weird statement for Sinclair to be making when pretty much the only home computers the Spectrum actually beat in terms of raw specs were the previous Sinclair machines. Sinclair computers were never "good" they were cheap, they offered value but not raw power.
That Outrun music comparison is hilarious! :D
Glad you picked up on that :) :)
Should've done Agent-X, but I doubt they did an MSX version.
in general, the music of the Spectrum is in the menus, not during the game. Of course, MSXs have a dedicated sound chip and they make a big difference. On the spectrum, the Z80 had to do everything ...
As a kid I owned the Toshiba HX-10, my mother bought one and since then I was addicted to this machine, later on, I bought the Philips NMS8250 with moniter and printer and I still have it.
For me, this was the beginning of my computer adventure, playing games, running bbs systems on it and a lot more.
I still love MSX
Hope to see more videos about MSX.
Here in the Netherlands where a lot of MSX enthousiast and they still are
I have subscribed, because of te video's about the MSX.
Keep making videos about the MSX.
Thanks for setting Sir Clive straight! I have always been surprised at his statement. In fact, I think he was just terribly afraid of the competition from MSX. He does have a point that the graphics chip is a bit old, but it's more capable than the Spectrum's... And the prices of MSX machines were a bit high, compared to the competition, I think.
Do note that for the "MSX1" there were many 'cheap' (quick and dirty) conversions of Spectrum games to the MSX. Besides they underuse the MSX graphics capabilities, there is another issue with these: because the MSX has a separate video RAM, the way these Spectrum games are programmed are not very fitting to the MSX architecture and they become a bit slow. For this Out Run port it's not too bad, but in general these are not the best MSX(1) games.
For a couple of top notch MSX1 games try: The Maze of Galious, F-1 Spirit, Salamander, Gradius series, King's Valley II, Rollerball, Eggerland, Penguin Adventure, Zanac, River Raid, Bosconian, ...
You're welcome :)
Would you say it to his face though?
@@universal70 Darn right I would!
@@TheRetroShack Well CS is still alive so its not to late!
I often tell Microsoft I dont like there software
Great memories of my Goldstar msx in the UK, the cartridge games of Daley Thompsons decathlon and penguin run. Replaced eventually with a spectrum + 128k. Built a printer interface on veroboard with components salvaged from old digital phone systems, borrowed an hp printer from work, wrote my first cv on a word processor program typed in from a magazine and got myself a better job 6 months later.
Fantastic! Love that ingenuity :)
The MSX holds a special place in my heart, as it was the very first computer I ever bought. So much so that I recently acquired a second hand MSX2 computer.
I am looking forward to your next MSX video. Thanks!
Glad you enjoyed it :)
Had a friend with an MSX. Nemesis & Penguin Adventure were both great games.
Been playing Penguin Adventure and what a game! :)
I played both games a lot!
@@TheRetroShack The very first game mr. Hideo Kojima worked on.
An interesting thing that helped to have a lot of zx spectrum titles on msx without too much time spent in efforts but also gave us a lower quality msx games (because they took the worst of both computers) was the msx bitmap mode.
Tecnically it is a tiled mode vs the full bitmap mode of spectrum, but it can be configured in a way to "forget" the tiled mode and could be used as a bitmap mode. the simililarities between the video modes are below:
both 256x192 pxs (so no need to worry of more or less space when converting zx->msx)
both attribute/color clash: the speccy had a limit on a 8x8 cell the msx on the 8x1 cell, but this was not a showstopper in doing conversion.
the physical mapping between video ram locations and pixels is somewhat different, but it is possible to convert easily from speccy layout to msx layout. So easily that most games managed in a separate cpu area the spectrum graphics and they upload to video memory doing an 'on the fly' conversion to msx video ram mapping. this allowed coders to not to rewrite gfx and sw sprites routines used on the spectrum and uploading the "zx shadow" screen on msx vram. The downside was increased processing time due to the double work required to CPU. If you sum this with the convertion needed to manage char attributes by a factor on 8 (on the msx) and due to the fact that the vram access on msx was slower than on spectrum, you realize why zx->msx conversions worked slower on msx. to get a faster game they needed to specifically code for msx. And this rarely happened.
So the similarity between the video modes was both a fortunate and unfortunate coincidence :
fortunate because it allowed conversion in relatively short times
unfortunate because it did not take advantage of the msx hw
Very interesting indeed!
Looks like a win in the keyboard stakes too!
Yes, it's a really nice machine all over :) Keyboard us up there - not quite up to BBC Micro standard but not far off, and a far cry from the rubber keys of the Speccy :)
Mostly depends on the model. Many MSX keyboards are almost as bad as Sinclair's. But some are really nice.
I was probably one of the few that had an MSX machine in the United States. I already had a C64, so it wasn't for games use. Rather it was for music production, and was the Yamaha CX5m, with a built in FM synthesizer chip and a dedicated music keyboard. I also had a disk drive for this machine, which I gather was rare anywhere, and unheard of in the US. While I did write a few BASIC programs for it, mostly it was running dedicated music sequencer software from Yamaha, and I never had any other carts.
Mission Accepted: Find a hard disk for the MSX :) :)
@@TheRetroShack I imagine Chris was referring to a floppy.
@@TheRetroShack better use flash cards nowadays.... But SCSI and IDE interfaces were made. I used SCSI myself, with 2x 1GB hard drive, MO Drive and CD ROM drive.
Hi, Just started with the MSX myself. Like you I never had much to do with this platform. I just completed building an Omega MSX II - which is a modern take on the MSX and it is awesome.
The Omega MSX 2 is already on the production slate for later in the year and I must admit I can’t wait! Thanks for watching!
Brazilian here. I did have 2 MSXes(?) from 2 different companies (I bought Sharp's HotBit HB-8000 and then moved to Gradiente's Expert XP-800 V 1.1) and loved them, especially the Expert.
Sharp's HotBit - Sounds awfully like Sony's HitBit :) :) Thanks for watching all the way over there in Brazil!
@@TheRetroShack they were heavily... "influenced" by models from outside Brazil that's for sure, not just in name.
I loved my MSX and the last one I had back in the late 1980s the PCB had snapped almost in two (goodness knows how that happened). I spent a few days soldering it slowly back together and it had link / jump wires everywhere. To my amazement it actually worked!! Wonder if it's still out there?
You did well soldering it back together! Good job!
Well, I had an MSX back in the day (Yamaha YIS-503, the F variant, being from France), and a friend of mine used to have a Spectrum. It was only a few years ago that I read sir Clive Sinclair declare his machine superiority over the MSX. And... from what I've seen, it was clearly bogus. But then again, I wasn't sure 100% because Spectrum never interested me in the first place and I thought it was possible that it could have some tricks up on its sleeves.
On the other hand, something that has always been fascinating to me is the design of those computers (MSX, 2, 2+ or Tubor-R). Some are bland as hell, but some are just gorgeous, even to this day.
Thank you so much for this first video :)
Absolutely agree - I think this Tosh is too notch in the beauty stakes :)
My first computer was a MSX2 philips nms 8250. Added the 2 drive myself, then extra memory, turbo (8 mhz) and eventually converted to an msx2+
I had the music module from Philips and other roms and a modem at 300, later converted to 1200 baud. Spent hours on BBS sites. Wonderful machine. ♥
Got an episode coming up on the Philips NMS 8250 :) :) Lovely looking machine :)
For me as a German that japanese MSX promotion video felt a little bit awkward :S
They were raising their hands in class! They were raising their hands in class!!!! :) :) :) Darn, now I can't unsee it either!!!! :)
Find the Yamaha CX5M with the built in FM music synth.
I had to help port electronic music composition software over to MSX, back in the day. The basic was a pretty simple version, (some versions lacked a 'MOD' instruction for example). Getting a disassembly of MSX revealed a lot of 'trick' coding, (jumps into the middle of an instruction, things like that), which made it hard to access through the ROM, though some games did it to use functions in the BASIC from machine code. It was also typically of MS Basic in being old fashioned and slow. BBC BASIC, which was a far more up to date design, simply ate it's lunch, as well as having more modern structured elements.
If MSX had hit the UK before the main boom started, it would have swept the board though. The machines were quite high quality, especially compared to a Sinclair.
I still have a wierd Pioneer PX7 model designed for Audio Visual work with their Laser Disc players - it has a built in interface for them.
I'll certainly keep an eye out for one as they sound like interesting machines!
Never had an MSX, but I think the keyboards with the keys having different colors and separate cursor keys are awesome.
Yeah - take note Amstrad - this is how you do coloured keys! :) :)
The problem with the MSX (which was my first computer in both Philips VG8000 and VG8020 incarnations) was that most games were simply ported from the Spectrum without doing anything to take the peculiar features of the platform into account. Games developed solely with the MSX in mind were much better, especially japanese games.
Yep, that's what I wanted to show in this introductory part - how even running ported Spectrum games, it still ran them faster than the Spectrum - despite good old Sir Clive's claims :). In the next part we'll look at some of the good stuff :)
If you are looking for a SVI-328 make sure you get the Expander "box" as well, its basically a multi cart holder that you can sit your monitor on, and when "fully loaded" is a practical business machine (with 80 columns, dual 5.25 floppys, comms, printer pass-thru and a few other goodies - RTC? - this is the setup in my local computer shop in Hamilton NZ in about 1985 when we got an SVI-728 + 5.25 floppy and about 3 months before the SVI-738 was released). It can still run most MSX-1 games btw.
FYI: I joined an SVI users group, the most memorable thing being a young guy built a printer interface that worked over the 2x joysick ports
I knew people at school with Sinclair’s, BBC, Electron, C64, VIC-20, Dragon 32, even a Tandy TRS-80. I didn’t know a single person who had an MSX. Seems odd, really. They were decent machines. Maybe a bit pricey in the day. Or, we all got machines our mates had so we could ‘borrow’ games...
I’d just like to state that every game I have ever owned has been legally and honestly obtained... *cough*
In the Netherlands it was mostly C64 & MSX - the other stuff was much rarer.
I grew up in North America, and I learned of MSX through Popular Electronics magazine. It was only a paragraph in the “What’s new” section, but it was enough to interest me. And that’s all there ever was. I never heard of or saw an MSX machine then or now.
Whoosh! What was that? That was MSX? Oh, should I care - I've got a c64? Not really? :) :) :)
wonder if there were ever any models designed for North America power and NTSC video (assuming these MSX machines ever attempted to support standard televisions for a display)
@@TheSulross Only Spectravideo and Yamaha sold actual US models for a short period and they're quite rare now. All the Japanese models are NTSC and 100VAC though, so easy enough to import and use.
@@TheSulross Yes, Yamaha released the CX5M in North America with NTSC video (like Japan). It was built as a music computer though, aimed at musicians and sold only in music stores. Still a very nice MSX. I own its successor (the CX5MII). Since I’m from continental Europe, I’ve used MSX since I was a kid, and my family’s first MSX was a Philips.
The amstrad cpc 464 is my favourite retro system....this is a close second now. I really love the looks on this.
Thanks for the great video
Glad you enjoyed it!
I keep getting blown away 🤯 seeing manuals in English - my introduction to the MSX computers was a Panasonic MSX2+.
Look out for our MSX2 build coming soon :)
I still have a Sanyo MSX in the loft, I once had the matching Sanyo lightpen cartridge and a Toshiba music keyboard and sound synth cartridge... I later got a JVC MSX that had RGB scart, a real treat in 1985 when I luckily had a TV in the lounge with suitable scart socket.
RGB in 1985 when I was still trying to make out the foreground from the background on RF cables :) :) Lucky boy!
My first computer was a Sharp HotBit HB-8000, which was sold in Brazil. I bought it secondhand, but it was magical to me at the time. I really enjoyed using that little machine.
I had Spectrum compatible, C64 and MSX (HitBit). By far, I loved and found MSX better than the others. Pity that Spectrum and C64 had more software library than MSX, but MSX I found to be a far better and powerful machine and system by far.
@Rooflesoft Games This is my personal opinion. Is how I perceived C64 and MSX. For C64 I had only the datasette; for MSX I had 720kb floppy and a regular tape recorder. For C64 I had games, for MSX I had Pascal, Microsoft Basic that was 98% QBasic. Both had Assembler but I knew some assembly from Spectrum (Z80) and was easier than C64. If I remember correctly, C64 and Spectrum relied heavily on PEEKs and POKEs, on MSX I didn´t used them (it was a CALL for asm subroutines?).
On MSX I made a Norton Commander clone and a PSpice like program. Also I managed ADC, DAC´s, a custom home-made data acquisition board, that gave me a voltmeter, frequency-meter and a controlled power source.
The colors were brighter on MSX than on C64 or Spectrum.
As I said, C64 MAY have been better than MSX 1 for everyone, but I found MSX 1 Better than C64.
I find myself wanting a HitBit and I'm 90% sure it's just because it sounds cool! :)
@@TheRetroShack The main problem is that the original peripherals are extremely hard to find. I had a 9 dot-matrix printer, 720k floppy. My HitBit was model 75P.
I have fond memories of my Spectravideo SVI-728. I had one for some time, before I got too eager to get my hands on Commodore C64.
That was mostly because of the wider game selection of C64.
Although, MSX had some really enjoyable titles too. For example, The Maze of Galious, F1 Spirit, Nemesis etc. I still remember playing those games until I almost had blisters on my hands. 😁
*looking up games* Thanks!
I was attracted to any smallish home computer with a decent keyboard in the early 80s, being stuck with a well worn ZX81 with wobbly ram pack until '84/85... Always looked the business in magazines at the time.. C64 looked a bit boring in comparison although I really wanted one and knew it was better than the MSX machines. I have to agree MSX were better machines than the Speccy, but a lot more expensive over here, and not that much better. Sound was the main thing.
--
One of my main (of a quite a few) gripes about Sinclair was they did not exploit their own hardware enough.. They had the engineers that could have worked out, enabled and taught all the neat tricks found by clever programmers later in the Speccy's life.. Would have really pushed British software development forward too. All home computers back then should have been supplied with an Assembler + list of OS function addresses as well as Basic.. I'd have made it The Law in Britain..
Me too! I even paid out for a DKTronics keyboard for my Spectrum 48k that was about half the price of a new machine!
What I always remember about the MSX were the Konami cartridges. I was a C64 owner at the time and I used to drool over Penguin Adventure on my mate's MSX.. I used to love the sound - not sure whether there was a separate sound chip inside those cartridges or not, but they were truly awesome. Has to be said though.. I never saw MSX games on cassette that compared to what I had on the C64. For all I love the SID, I really loved the sounds of the Konami cartridge games.
That's interesting, and certainly possible - I'll do some digging :)
@@TheRetroShack Seriously - you'll be blown away. Konami did a range of games - Penguin Adventure, Salamander, Nemesis 1, 2 (possibly 3), F1 Spirit. Even Goonies was different from the C64 version. I look forward to your next episode after you source some. Of course.. you can always whet your appetite with an MSX emulator in the meantime ;-)
What a great video! Brings back memories. Thank you. I'm from the Netherlands, and the first computer I had was an MSX2 from Philips. There was also a book that came with it. The book was called MSX-BASIC, like the interpreter. It had all sorts of example code in it. BASIC is the perfect name for the language. All the basics are there: for loops, if-else statements, switch-case (called select?), all the logical operators, etc.. I remember trying a program that made the computer sound like a whistling kettle. I was amazed! This started my interest in programming and I still am a developer.
Thanks very much! Glad you enjoyed it :)
Whistling kettles have come far -- they're now referred to as "Steam" and "The Cloud" and "Cup of Tea". Well, 2/3 ain't bad.
Unfortunately it didn't have switch-case....
@@ManuelBilderbeek Indeed, after a quick Google search I found that QuickBASIC has the SELECT CASE, but MSX-BASIC hasn't. I've used QuickBASIC for some time too. Version 7.1 was my favorite, because it had a create .EXE function.
A very brief and interesting comparison, I had an Arabic version of MSX, glad that you mentioned middle east for MSX market.
Motaz from Sudan
Thanks! Glad you enjoyed it :)
I' ve had this one, the Toshiba, programmed on it, and now, seeing it I fall in love with it again. Just the looks ey. I began with a zx spectrum, my first programmable thingy. Still a good computer🥰
Grab one while they're going cheap! :) :)
Just a quick note: The MSX1 wasn't able to do hardware scrolling, but MSX2 did, and because of the expandable architecture, there were video upgrade cartridges (at least planned) that upgraded the MSX1 with the MSX2 rom and video accelerator.
Thanks for the info - I've got my eye on some MSX2 models now too... Got the bug!
@@TheRetroShack MSX machines were very interesting and because they were made of off-the-shelf components is relatively easy to source the parts and build your own. Look at Sergey's Omega project if you're interested in that. :)
@@Stormbolter It’s already on the production slate :) :)
Games that attempted to scroll, looked awful. That couldn't have helped the platform.
@@ivuldivul There are patches available now for some of the Nemesis games that'll give it smooth scrolling. It looks very impressive.
Yamaha CX5M with the composer cartridge and external keyboard options was one of the earliest consumer music work station, had MIDI ports and might of been the first as pre-dated the Atari ST.
It had a built in DX sound chip - based upon the DX5 - the smaller brother of the infamous DX7.
Fun times.
Absolutely - I had the DX21 I think? Not sure if that was the bigger or smaller brother of the DX5 but I loved it none the less :)
Yes I had an MSX from new, the Toshiba one, and it was awesome!!!! I had a c64 also and the games were just different. If you've never played it, give King's Valley for the MSX a try, one of the best games ever made!! Just be ready to never get the music out of your head.
I had a Sanyo MSX (UK) - good memories of some Konami games. I remember playing Nemesis a lot.
Going to get some cartridges in for part two, now that the Spectrum point is out of the way we can see what these machines are capable of their own terms :)
@@TheRetroShack Looking forward to part two!
Great vid, thanks, although a bit skimpy. I live in "Continental Europe", but I only ever saw these machines in the department stores. Never met anyone with an MSX box. BUT, I just had to pause and read that Enterprise ad you posted, and I was fascinated. I don't imagine they sold more than a dozen, but it would be wonderful if you could get your filthy paws on one to review.
You have no idea how many of those Enterprise's I've just missed out on - it's my White Whale... I will catch one, one day!
@@TheRetroShack Thar she blows!
To be fair the newest component design in the MSX specification was the TI TMS9918 is a Video Display Controller, and it was released in 1979. So, the tech was 5 years old. As for the more powerful claim, they have essentially the same CPU. If we try to justify the claim, we'd have to add ridiculous qualifiers like 'per cubic centimeter'.
True enough - but '2-3 times faster' - Hmmmm.... Dubious at best :)
There is no hardware scrolling on the MSX1. Hardware Sprites yes. The MSX2 has vertical scrolling and the MSX2+ / turboR has horizontal scrolling as well.
I was a commodore 64 user but I have collected some Sony MSX machines just because they are beautiful and well build.
I'm definitely hooked on these things now! I'll correct my scrolling faux pas in the next episode in the series :) Thanks for watching!
@@TheRetroShack There is a video from Displaced Games called :MSX Computers - Scrolling, Sprites, and Stereotypes from april 2020 and it will give you a lot of information about the msx system a really good watch.
@@TheRetroShack be careful.. i got very hooked and ended up with about 8 of the buggers, mostly from Japan because there was so much variety and availability.
Coincidentally I just took delivery of my MSX from Egypt a couple of weeks ago. While is had a local brand of Sakar, it was identical to a Japanese model Sanyo with a couple of exceptions. I was able to use it in the US with no conversions of any kind. It even had a US compatable power plug. I'm still thinking this is pretty much a game console with a keyboard, but I will use it some more and might change my mind.
The basic implementation is actually pretty nice, and I hear that there were floppy and hard disk interfaces for them, so that would have helped in the business arena? Looking forward to finding out myself as I go on my MSX trails :)
Wow, this was my first computer. Didn’t know much about computing at that point. I programmed a few basic games myself and played some tape games and had a few cartridges. I thought I was a little jealous at the time of my friends with spectrums and other makes. Looking back now I am very Proud of having owned such a well thought out machine. :-)
I've been surprised at how well considered these machines were - and how well made!
The MSX, or more specifically the MSX2, gave us Metal Gear. That alone is enough to love it. :D
True Dat!
I loved my Brazilian Gradiente MSX back in 1986. My previous computer was a Spectrum which I really enjoyed as well, but there's really no comparison. The MSX was fantastic.
Was your previous computer a Spectrum or "our" brazillian Spectrum clone "TK 90X" from Microdigital? :D
I remember my first contact with computers was with a TK-85 (ZX-81 clone) back then in 83. I got excited for that technology I've never been introduced with before.
@@FabianoMaiaFranco I only moved to Brazil in 1986 from South Africa, where I had the ZX81 and then the Speccy. I saw the clones in Rio but wasn't interested in getting something I knew already. Abracos da África do Sul!
@@donaldklopper Agora eu entendi! Rs
Abração! :D
@@FabianoMaiaFranco Até a próxima vez meu amigo
That's a very grand name - The Gradiente! Nice :)
3:13 Look at all those different NEC machines sharing the same base model number: “PC-9801”. I remember helping out a fellow staff member who had a PC-9801VM2/E. Apparently the “E” stood for “Export”.
I think they were quite nice looking machines! :)
One of the advantages of the MSX is not so obvious: from the start (1983) it had a standard memory bank switching scheme that allowed memory to be expanded massively.
The address space was divide into four 16K blocks and each block could be assigned to one of four "slots"; generally the onboard RAM, ROM and some I/O were in slot 0 (and sometimes slot 3 as well) and slots 1 and 2 were the two cartridge ports. Additionally, there was a second optional switching scheme for a 16K block in a slot that allowed switching between four more banks for those devices that wanted to provide yet more memory. Thus a single cartridge could offer up to 256 KB of RAM and/or ROM in a standard way (non-standard extensions raised this to 512 KB or more), and the system as a whole could have as much as a megabyte of memory available.
Though within a few years a lot of the remaining 8-bit series of machines would be offering a standard for more than 64K of memory as a regular thing, the MSX was one of the earlier systems to do this. Designing it in from the start was pretty forward thinking!
My first computer was a Philips MSX2 that my parents bought. I still have it and even bought some more once I moved out of my parents house. Be aware with MSX, it is a bug you can't get rid of 😜
Too late! I've been bitten :) :)
Good short review thank you.
I never had an MSX either but, I have to admit they did look kinda cool.
Thanks for watching!
Dutch bloke here. Had a lot of time on Philips and Sony MSX machines, both the MSX and the MSX2. Vendor incompatibility even between those was kinda funny, having to poke some memory addresses to make certain software run on a specific machine.
Looking forward to getting my hands on an MSX2 for the channel!
@@TheRetroShack I'd recommend a desktop model. Generally better upgrade options on those.
MSX was probably bigger than Sinclair here in the Netherlands because Philips (Dutch company) made quite a range of MSX and MSX2 machines for years, also because of the (more expensive) Phillips MSX2 was able to do video editing (digitising, subtitling), proving very popular with hobby and professional video enthusiasts. Sony Hit-Bit and other brands were sold plenty as well.
It was the opposite of the UK experience in the Netherlands; I have never seen any Spectrums as a kid but MSXes were everywhere.
@@BokanoiD I had a Spectrum so they did exist here 😉
Today I have a huge collection of Spectrums (clones) from around the world (East Europe, Russia, North and South America, India, ...)
I love the name "Hit-Bit" - so cool!
@@TheRetroShack they were excellent machines as well. I have very nice HB-75P that feels more like a high end piece of hifi equipment from the 80s than your average micro. They're probably not going cheap these days, but a Sony MSX2 machine is a nice thing to get.
I had a Sony MSX in the UK. At my school it was more popular than the Amstrad but that was because it was rural and the local independent electrical shops sold them alongside Japanese TVs and Videos and there was no Dixon’s or large WH Smith selling computers in smaller towns. It was difficult at first to buy software as the shops selling the computers did not sell tapes but plenty was available 85-88 but mostly Spectrum conversions.
I upgraded to an Atari ST in 87 when MSX magazines ended and manufacturers stopped supporting them but really the Japanese developed Konami MSX cartridge games were more playable than early ST games. Had MSX 2 been available in the UK at reasonable price I would have wanted one
Now's the time to get one - they're pretty reasonable prices at the moment :)
I got the MSX Sony Hit Bit 75 for my 13th birthday in 1984. And I loved the machine! It was my first computer. I really loved to program in MSX basic. In later years allot of people in my village had an MSX. And for "educational purpose" it was really easy to copy a cassette tape with a HiFi set. ;-)
HitBit is the best name for a computer :) :)
I had an HX-10 and the Konami cartridge games set the standard at the time for playability, I had a go on ping pong recently and it's still holds up today in terms of speed and control. The annoying thing, particularly with the HX-10 and was true of other machines was that it was not fully compliant in terms of memory address and some tape games would not load, they required pokes to be entered in advance of loading (which I only learned later in life). Molecule Man, Zoids, Red Moon to name but a few
At the UK launch I remember being blown away by a Pioneer MSX computer linked to a Pioneer Laser Disc player. The LD provided photo realistic video backgrounds with game graphics overlaid by the computer. This was similar to how some pro arcade video games like "Dragon's Lair" worked. There was an impressive Pioneer game very similar to the Star Wars attacks on the Death Star, which involved flying through trenches, but I don't recall the name.
I think I remember that but like you can't remember the name - anyone?
I've been a fan of ZX Spectrum since childhood and I love the hardware features and the platform's game library. But there is no possible comparison between a standard ZX Spectrum with 48k of RAM and a standard MSX 1 with 64k. A typical MSX runs any Spectrum game easily. The worst thing that happened, in conversions of titles from Spectrum to MSX, was that the adapted games were often a little slower due to the lack of optimization. However, the graphics and sounds of the conversions were the same or better than what was seen in Speccy. However, a Spectrum would simply never be able to run anything that even resembles the best games originally made for MSX, such as "Nemesis", "The Goonies", "Knightmare", "Zanac" or "The Castle". I love both platforms, but the hardware superiority of MSX is undeniable.
But, what about, no - wait, give me a second... How about... Nah, I got nuthin :) :)
I remember the MSX computers being for sale here in Australia when I was a kid, but I was an Apple // fan back then so wasn't really interested in the MSX. I have however since, played around with emulators for the MSX and it seems I missed out on a cool system back in it's time.
Me too - go grab one now :) :)
I think the Toshiba HX-10 is one of the great (and few) bargains left in the 8 bit retro market. You see them going for very little on ebay and compared to many of the other offerings out there they are a capable and interesting thing to play on. I got mine for 30 quid.
Bargain indeed!!!
MSX was in Europe an Spectrum emulator, because all the games were ports from that machine.
If you don't know MSX in deep, try Konami's games... and whatever that comes from Japan.
There are good european games too, like "Temptations" and "Ale Hop!" from Topo Soft... or some titles from Netherlands, like GuttBlaster or Break In!.
I had an MSX when I was kid and later i had an MSX2... For me, without doubt, the best 8 bit machine.
Great video.
Thanks for the tips!
I still have the SVI728 I got for Christmas in 1987. I wrote a lot of simple Basic programs on it, and played the only game cartridge I had - Goonies. Which looks suspiciously similar too Manic Miner...
Lol - I just had a look at Goonies and you're right!
I had the Toshiba HX-10 and my friend had the Sony HitBit, both in the UK, so they were around, just not as common as the main players.
Games wise, the carts were great. Nemesis, Antarctic Adventure, and Knightmare were superb and well worth trying to get hold of.
Sony HitBit - now that's a cool name for a computer!
@@TheRetroShack it was pretty cool. It had some office tools built in to the ROM as I recall. Calculator, spreadsheet, etc.
I can confirm that MSX definitely stands for "MicroSoft eXtended" BASIC. I have made a lot of research in magazines of the 80s and that's what it was said at that time. It was also confirmed by Tom Sato, who worked for Microsoft for the MSX european market on 1985.
Unfortunately, according to various sources Kazuhiko Nishi has contradicted himself over the name over the years. Check out msx.org. Ultimately, I don't know as I wasn't there in the meeting where they decided it - I, like all of us are working on second-hand information :) :) :) Doesn't take away that it's a fabulous machine though! :)
Nice video! MSX (1 and 2) where my first 8-bit computers. Nice stuff!
Can you please share line 10 and 20 of your BASIC program to calculate primes?
Pulled from a 2013 post here: sinclairzxworld.com/viewtopic.php?t=1067. Works unchanged in MSX Basic.
i want an MSX so bad. thank you for making this. i am guessing your video hit on my homepage because i keep looking up MSX stuff. so hopefully others will see this as well.
Thanks very much - and glad you're enjoying the channel :)
Most enjoyable! Never owned an msx, would be a better battle between the msx and spectrum +2.
I just love all the old 8 bits!
The condition is amazing of the msx you have shown us.
What kind of power supply was that you were using? Looks great
If you’re an MSX fan - keep an eye on the channel this festive season ;) ;)
According to the book, How To Program Your MSX Computer, written by Lionel Carter and Eva Huzan, published in 1984, the Introduction reads, MSX BASIC is an extended version of BASIC, developed by Microsoft.
That sounds like a vote for MicroSoft eXtended to me :) :)
Welcome to the wonderful world of MSX!
I've got 5 MSX machines, with the Philips NMS 8250 MSX2 as my favourite.
Get one of those, you'll love it.
Think these things are going to be like Pokemon - gotta catch ‘em all! :)
My grandfather did had the MSX2 Philips NMS 8280. Played a lot of games on it.
Forget the 512k mapper, if you can stretch to a Carnivore2, it has 1024k of useable RAM, built in sound cards FM-PAC and SCC, and a CF slot, far more useful, and works fine with the Toshiba MSX, I have tried it!
That may have to wait a while until the funds are there, but adding it to the shopping list definitely :)
I cut my programming & gaming chops on a Toshiba HX-10 back in the day. It did me fine on my way to a Computer Science degree. 10yo me loved it.
Never had an MSX, but I do still have my Tatung Einstein which, while not an MSX machine, does have the same components. The Einstein cost £499 in 1984 and while it was never a very popular machine, it did have a good selection of games, a spectrum emulator add-on device, and could be used as a development platform for the Spectrum.
That’s really interesting! I don’t know the Einstein had a Spectrum Emulator device - ‘goes into research mode’ :)
@@TheRetroShack Yes, the Speculator!
Could Sir Clive have been refeering to the earlier SVI-318 that was released in 1983? and since I never had a MSX in the 80'ths I now have a SVI-728 in the garage waiting for a SD MegaMapper enroute from Brazil. Thanks for the video!
Even so he was wrong either way :) Bless him :) :) Can't wait to get hold of my SD Mapper so I can get stuck into some cartridge games! :) Thanks for watching!
I had a MSX as a kid in the UK. Would have preferred a Spectrum or C64 because games. I had to write my own games. But it was massively more powerful than the Specturm in usage. I had a Sanyo. Looked better than the Toshiba.
Hey! Don't knock my Tosh :) Now I feel like I need to get a Sanyo... You know, just to compare :)
I've got a Sony HitBit MSX2. In great condition other than the keyboard mylar is basically gone. Almost all of the traces are gone. Any idea how I can fix/replace that? I mean, it's gone so much that I don't think even conductive ink would help (unless maybe I find a print out of one to trace).
You could try this stuff as some people have had success with it: Conductive Wire Glue/Paint - NO Soldering Iron www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B00SRIITQ4/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_api_glt_fabc_CMQMNMV21MZHQ6VWDP1F
Maybe someone on the forums at www.msx.org has a solution for you.
Wow - you packed a lot into 11 minutes!
Oh wow. One of the car channels I watch posting a message on one of the retro computer channels I watch. Small world, this CZcams!
I wish my wife said that :(
@@stevejennings3960 😂
Thanks - it felt like it would a lot longer video when I was making it, but it edited together really nicely :)
I am from Brazil and my MSX is up and running!
I had wondered about the MSX as a kid, but never saw one. I heard that they were used in some cabinets to control the odd laserdisc game, but that might have been wrong. Thanks for the great introduction.
I think you might be correct: Pioneer did indeed make an MSX computer that could interface directly to one of their LaserDisc players, so it is not unlikely that it would have been this combo that inhabited those arcade games.
Interesting!
I am from Germany. I have heard about MSX when I was a kid but I don't think I have ever seen one in person. I have never seen any software for that system in stores.
C64 (sometimes C16) and Atari 8 bit stuff was all over the place, sometimes Amstrad 464 (known as 'Schneider CPC' in Germany).
Thanks for checking in - I can cross Germany off the 'MSX was here!' list :)
There was SOME truth to the claim, in that the video hardware was identical to, and the audio hardware similar to, that of the TI-99/4A.
CPU-wise the MSX and Spectrum are literally equal. So it's all up to the support hardware - and I think in most regards, the MSX crushes the Speccy.
It pains me to say it as a Speccy fan, but I think you're right :)
@@TheRetroShack I try to be objective. I'm an Apple ][ person myself ;)
I like the pastel colours of MSX, all those systems with the TI graphics look pretty comfy.
funny to see a Videopac/Odessey2 add between the 8-bit computer adds. Since it is a games console. Not a 8 bit computer, at least not without a basic expansion.
I have great memories playing on the MSX. A friend of mine had a Philips MSX 1, he had a few cartridges liek Nemesis, Vampire killer, F1-spirit and Metal Gear. Played it a lot.
Now i have few MSX1/2 computers and it is one of my favourite systems.
Check out the C7420 Home Computer Module :)
When i was a kid, i only saw an MSX in one of the computer shop, playing that Penguin game, such nice music and graphics. Anyway, its ridiculous to say the Spectrum is more powerful than anything other than the ZX80 and ZX81. But we still love it and now we have the Spectrum NEXT. MSX fanboys, bow before your master!
Well, there ya go always wondered about that machine, I`ll not crap on the speccy though as it did a grand job and I always loved the look of it as the keyboard seemed to scream a world of possibilities with all those commands written on them even though it was murder to use, but then I was a kid and knew no different and then the C64 happened and that was a different world again!
Glad you enjoyed the video! And yes, the Speccy and the C64 still 'do it' for me, but I have grown to love this little machine over the past few weeks :)
Hardware-wise MSX1 is close enough to a Colecovison that MSX1 games can be hacked to run on Colecovision and vice versa. They use basically the same CPU graphics and sound chips with a different memory map.
We had a Colecovision back in the early 80's - Donkey Kong was superb!
In Brazil the MSX was sold as 'Expert XP-800' by a local company called 'Gradiente'. it had even the keyboard separated from the CPU: pt.wikipedia.org/wiki/Expert_XP-800 I had the luck of having one in the 80's! and yes, it was far better than my friend's sinclair ;-)
Thanks for watching and yes, I've become quite the fan :)
I remember a Philips MSX 2 machine in a magazine ad video processing a Disney movie.... I wondered for years what kind of machine could process video....
Thanks for that - I'll have to look that up :)
The msx was my first computer. And yes they were popular here in the middle east with Arabized versions!
:) Thanks for watching!
I remember watching an MSX demonstrated on Johnny Ball's "Think of a Number". I was quite impressed (although I might have misremembered it)
Johnny Ball! There's a blast from the past! :)
@@TheRetroShack I was a microcomputer nut at the time, like most people here, so anytime I saw home computer on the telly, it really stuck in my memory.
I remember him demonstrating Rescue on Fractalus on an Atari computer. It used fractals a mathematic technique so it got itself onto ‘think of a number’
@@JesterEric that was it! It wasn't MSX! Funny how your memory changes things
Always looked interesting the concept of the MSX, from afar. But definitely can't agree about Manic Miner - the definitive edition IS the spectrum version.
I prefer the colours and feel of the spectrum, but that awful title screen music grates on me something chronic :)
You hadn't tested the MSX properly: both Manic Miner and Out Run are ports from Speecy. You should've tried some games developed specifically for the MSX: Zanac, Thexder, Penguin Adventure, any Nemesis game, Salamander, etc.
These are games that can't be done on a Spectrum.
That was kind of the point of the video - to show that 'even' doing a ported spectrum game - the MSX did it better :) In the next video in the series we'll look at the MSX specific stuff :) :) That was MUCH better :)
You are right, in Brazil they were huge specially for games for s short period at least.
5 year old tech? Back to 1979? Like the Atari 800?
The BIG issues with the MSX in the UK was that the C=64 and BBC Micro was at the same price Range, So the big seller or the one like at school? Parents making the purchases plumped for the well supported option. Also a number of poor ports from the ZX Spectrum. Then Amstrad swooped in (nice machine but still cannot understand its success in what appeared to be an already crowded market, maybe it was all about the Monitor included?). As an Atari 800XL owner at the time, I must admit I suffered the same with poor and bugged ports from the C-64 so feel the pain.
My friend at school with the Atari 800 was ALWAYS complaining that he couldn't get hold of games. I remember when he got Dropzone and played it for a weekend straight! :)
Comparing ported games is not really fair as they are optimized for the Spectrum and then ported to the MSX. Showing RAM content on screen is immediate on the Spectrum, but the MSX with its different architecture has to move data from RAM to the VRAM first. It's doable, but slightly slower. -- Have a look at some Konami games, for example, as they were build from the ground up, taking advantage of the MSX hardware's peculiarities ( just don't compare Green Beret, please )
One of the greatest features of the MSX are the slots that allow you to plug in all kinds of extensions. For example the SCC chip from konami makes their games sound amazing (czcams.com/video/X-_EOZ8f4JM/video.html
This was an introduction video only - When I heard Sir Clive saying the Spectrum was 2-3 x more powerful than an MSX I was curious and from this (albeit cursory) first glance I can't see, from a consumers perspective, that anyone would believe that. I picked games ported from the Spectrum specifically as, if Sir Clive were to be believed, they would be worse on the MSX? Just a bit of fun really this time round :)
@@TheRetroShack I enjoyed it a lot. I'll be looking out for more MSX episodes from you ;-)
With the MSX-2 it was possible to directly write and read sectors to and of a floppy. Okay, it was a disabled basic instruction but calling the not removed hook it worked. It was great to mirror a game and then edit (translate) the text in said game. I also used it later to after command.com on a PC to prevent ANSI-art formatting the hard drive.
The NMS8280 I owned was capable of video digitizing and superimposing. what I used a lot. Still got the old machine, needs a recap when I find the time.
Are you sure that's MSX2 specific? I think if you connect a disk drive to an MSX1, the same is possible. Such stuff is in the disk ROM, which comes with the disk drive, and it's built-in if the MSX has a drive built-in, of course.
@@ManuelBilderbeek It was implemented in Basic as DSKI$()and DSKO$(). But it was either deemed too dangerous or there was not enough string-space. I heard both story's.
( see www.msx.org/wiki/DSKI$() )
I've said it before - I'm going to be addicted to collecting these things now!!! :)
@@fiskurtjorn7530 Yeah, so that's disk BASIC, which is in the disk ROM, as I described.
Got a Toshiba HX10, still going strong. I recased my Speccy in an aftermarket keyboard upgrade and hope whoever has it knows what it is.
Was it a DKTronics? - cause I stuck mine in one of those too :)
Great video! Since a lot of people are already recommending you MSX1 games by Konami, let me do something different. :) Here's two non-Konami MSX1 games that are worth checking out for technical reasons: Midnight Brothers and Grog's Revenge (the latter was sadly unbeatable for 34 years due to a bug in the final level -- more info on my longplay).
I'll check it out! Thanks :)
@@TheRetroShack Oh, almost forgot! Check out Red Zone, as well. It's from 1985 and has 3D-like visuals that are not just wireframes.
Look out for the Philips VG-8000, and the mysterious Eurohard Dragon MSX - never seen in the wild!
LOL :) :)
Just a note, Clive’s interview in 1984 would have been on the verge of the MSX2 upcoming release in 1985. And at the time even the Speccy was an aging architecture. Though with the release of the MSX2 and the 128k in 1985, the difference in capability were apparent. Though, it is curious how you only showed MSX ports of Spectrum games. That’s not really a fair comparison, as the MSX had many games that were superior not only in the audio but in graphics as well.
That said, although I’m from the US and never used either of these machines in my youth, I do own examples of both now. And I can say that while the MSX is a superior machine, I love both of them for what they are.
That was kind of the point of the video - to debunk Sir Clive's claims. After all, the MSX could run those Spectrum games better than the Spectrum :) We'll get onto the real MSX goodies in the next episode :)
@@TheRetroShack BTW, if you find the MSX to be a fun machine, I would highly encourage you to find a MSX2 or MSX2+. Alternatively, there is a homebrew machine that can be built, the Omega Home Computer. The games available on the 2 and 2+ are quite a bit of fun. Although there is a massive collection of games for the MSX1.
@@RetroDepot Already on the production slate :) Couldn’t resist it! :)
To be fair on Speccy Outrun you did get a copy of the arcade soundtrack on side B :D
The Einstein was also very similar to the MSX but unfortunately not close enough to be directly compatible.
I remember the days when you got a soundtrack to play along with the game! :) :)
Well I'm not from Japan, Korea, Brazil, the Middle East or continental Europe (wot, no Argentina?), but we were familiar with MSX machines in Uruguay, after Spectrums and C64s they were the most popular, on a par with Amstrads. Then the Amigas and STs arrived...
And the world changed... :) :)