That was actually really cool. About half way through I thought those Galor Type Is are outmatched and the Cardassians were in over their heads, even by Mirandas. But even I forget that the Galor space-frame is just a tank. Those ships simply outlasted the starships. Central Command would be elated by this outcome: A Galor I battlegroup taking out a Starfleet task force with no losses.
I thought my ship was toast very early in the battle. I'm sure the fact that the Starfleet task force was mostly old frigates and a clunky old cruiser did nothing to dent their sense of superiority 🤣 I think the battle would have gone the other way if an Excelsior was used instead of the Constellation, and certainly an Ambassador
@@adamlee2111 For sure. No way they attack if that task force has heavy ships. Or if they do, they have to send a squadron of Galor Type IIs with that unit to have a chance.
@@adamlee2111 Yeah but Starfleet in that was like 95% old ships so it is accurate! If you think about it the Cardies picked a good time to pick a fight. They try that after 2365 and they don't have relative parity anymore. They try that in 2330 and their ships are too primitive to compete.
Nice battle! I didn't know who was going to win that. I don't think I have ever seen a Galor Type 1 model in action. The durability of the thick Galor hull was the decisive factor in this fight!
Damaged ship is much preferable to a destroyed one. And the Cardassians take that outcome every day of the week. Every lost starship is a toll in blood the Federation doesn't want to take.
This is an average Tuesday, for the Cardassians. For the Federation, it's a tragedy. The mindset plays a big role. No, actually, on a average Tuesday, they'd lose at least one ship. So this is a GOOD Tuesday, for the Cardies XD
Also, this battle is a reminder of how the Border Wars would have been fought. People think in terms of "The Wounded" of Starfleet capital ships whipping Galors. But the Cardassians aren't stupid. They would simply avoid the newer, more powerful starships and focus on the legacy ships. This battle is the perfect example. The Cardassians don't have to win big set-piece battles to obtain a favourable peace with the Federation; they only have to make the War more costly than a democratic society wishes to stomach.
Agreed, I think the Cardassians avoided set piece battles like the plague for that very reason: they would lose badly and they knew it. Far better for them to pick of isolated pockets of ships and only attack when they were sure to have the advantage 👍
@@adamlee2111 This is it exactly. I am an historian by trade, and a former army officer. When people say the Cardassians were to weak to fight wars with the Federation I look at them askance. History is replete with smaller powers fighting well against larger ones. There are two basic premises that people overlook: 1) What is the logistics situation for both sides, 2) Can tactical superiority overcome Strategic shortcomings? People often overlook that logistics and support can often mean a larger power is at a disadvantage fighting on the enemies home turf. This was the case in the Border Wars that leveled the playing field somewhat: Cardassia's smaller size was an advantage and the Federation's larger size a disadvantage. One only need look at the outcome of the Klingon-Cardassian War for that: Initial Klingon gains after operational surprise, but logistical and strategic impediments of 100 light-year long supply lines meant the Klingons were quickly bogged down, suffered from support issues, and then ultimately ejected in two days by a mostly Cardassian force (Dukat only had 80 Dominion ships to launch his offensive, the Klingons had 100s of ships in their occupied regions, as a consequence the vast majority of the attack force was Cardassian). Looking at the area in which the War was fought it is clear that the Cardassians greatly benefitted from being on their home ground for several reasons. The border region, that later became the DMZ, is only a sector away from core Cardassian space. They have one major enemy on one front; they can mass their forces far more easily than Starfleet and its long borders and many enemies. Proximity: Not unlike the North Vietnamese in the US-Vietnam conflict, the Cardassians are able to launch hit and run attacks from their fortified border regions in a manner that gives them the initiative. They choose to attack when the odds are on their side, and if they are outmatched they can quickly retreat back into their space, which is fortified knowing full well that Starfleet isn't going to cross into their space to fight unless they send a major task force. This hit-and-run strategy is borne out when Chief O'Brien talks about the Setlik III massacre: They were an undefended outpost and the Cardassians attacked out of their space, hit the outpost, and fell back. Starfleet retaliation might take the form of large task forces entering Cardassian space to destroy an outpost or raid a system, or to bring the Cardassian fleet to battle. But an all-out attack to conquer a Cardassian system would be too costly to be a common occurrence. However, the Cardassians did launch major attacks aimed at taking systems like Minos Korva, that ultimately failed (Jellicoe dialogue in Chain of Command). However, large set-piece battles would have been a pre-condition to an attempt, so the Cardassians seemingly engaged in them on occasion and sometimes won. Probably using subterfuge and misdirection to achieve temporary local superiority.
@@crownprincesebastianjohano7069 This is a good synopsis. Plus the Cardassians are well known for employing trickery as noted by the Klingons in "Soldiers of the Empire." If the Cardassians ever engaged Ambassadors or Nebulas they probably tricked them into ambushes. Meanwhile, Starfleet's best operational plans were to attack Cardassian installations they know they would have to defend, forcing them to fight on uneven terms. It should be noted though that there wasn't constant warfare, but periods of heavy skirmishing followed by periods of inactivity. This type of war benefits the smaller side because an all-out conflict would force the larger side to throw all their resources into a fight to finish it. One has to wonder if the Romulans paid really close attention to the conflict as their later strategy of confrontation with Starfleet only on uneven terms looks familiar.
@@johnghudjars3496 I mean, Romulans wouldn't need to do that, their ships are an even or near-even match for contemporary Federation ships in 1 on 1 fights. But the Romulans play it safe, so probably, yes. And I never got the impression the Romulans are very good on a tactical ship-to-ship combat level. They like to cloak, sneak up, and unload, but then they're out of their depth. Certainly in the Dominion War fleet battles, the Romulans suffered the worst, out of all 3 allies. Their big clunky Warbirds were just picked apart.
Ok, when i saw the equal numbers, I thought "that's not an ambush, that's a cocky Gul trying to make a name for himself, who will learn the hard way". An even fight?! End of the battle - I guess the cocky Gul actually made a name for himself. More through luck then judgement, and the fact that the Starfleet battlegroup was all second-rate ships. Still... he'll be the golden boy at Central Command for a while now. Maybe even buy himself a promotion to Legate! But daaamn the Galor can take a beating! And it needed to, here. When I saw all those ships focus you at the start, I was like - that's it. You're dead. But no, you really tanked it all (letting the other Galors live longer). I think the fact you were the focus early on, helped preserve the other ships in the group. EDIT: Oh and the fact yours was a Type II Galor, added you a little extra staying power XD
Yeah I thought I was toast in the first couple of minutes! If starfleet flotilla wasn’t mostly old Miranda’s and a crappy old constellation it would have been a different outcome. Not surprised the Centaur lasted the longest
Yeah but the problem for Starfleet is in the 2350s into even early 2360s is that 90% or more of the fleet are old ships. Ambassador Class or New Orleans Class were scarce. One on one fights between older ships and Galor 2s was the most common fight! Things only change mid 2360s when Nebulas are being built in numbers and Spoonheads counter with large numbers of the Galor 3s. Galaxy changes the whole game though even if they only built a few dozen. The reason the treaty happens is because Starfleet all of a sudden has more problems in 2366 a. the Borg, b. the Romulans are back. For the Cardassians it is because a. After years of fighting they realize they can't push Starfleet back without total war b. Starfleet begins to pull away in the quality race. Galor 3 and Keldon 1 was supposed to even the playing field in tech because in big numbers it counters the advantage of Ambassadors and Nebulas. But Galaxy Class throws that out of the window. So they make a treaty and the Cardassians actually make out well with getting a number of good systems.
@@robertcapet9132 Those 'old ships' were plenty powerful to deal with Galors I and IIs. And Federation had plenty of newer ships, it just didn't see the need to tie them up in a border conflict.
WOW!!! Great fight! I guess this is that war in a nutshell: Cardassians picking on older ships and doing well. Problem for Starfleet is they kept those relics in service waaaaay too long. This fight is more typical of Starfleet in 2355 than people would admit. Never seen Galor 1 mods before. Cool.
No it's not. Starfleet had plenty of newer ships, but they didn't deploy them to the Cardassian conflict. There was no need. A typical Excelsior could deal with anything the Cardassians could throw at it.
@@necroticavalon5176 That is simply not true. You are talking about a front spanning over 60 light years, right next to the core of an empire with large military forces. What new ships did Starfleet deploy on in that conflict? There is no need. Really? What is that based on? Military outcomes are judged by the conditions upon which conflicts end. The Federation ceded more territory than they gained. What new ships were in service in the mid-2350s at the height of the conflict? The Nebula? Not commissioned until the 2360s. New Orleans Class? Only a few dozen were built. What other classes other than the Ambassador are newer ships in the 2350s that Starfleet as large numbers of that we never, ever see in TNG or even DS9? The wreckage at Wolf 359, the fleet scenes in DS9 do not reveal numbers of any newer classes outside the ones mentioned above. An Excelsior can handle a Galor 2. Ok. The Cardassians have 100s of Galor 2s and many more 1s. What are you containing them with? Mirandas so you can suffer heavy losses? Starfleet isn't going to keep large numbers of ships in the area? Don't buy it. That isn't how wars are fought.
@@robertcapet9132 Niagara class, Freedom class, Cheyenne class. To name just three off the top of my head. Niagara and Cheyenne are light cruisers, Freedom is a frigate. An Excelsior can handle anything from 2 Galor I's, to a Galor I and a Galor II, to a Galor III. And can give a Keldon a decent fight. A Miranda can 1 on 1 a Galor I, on a good day. Centaur can do it on any day. Constellation can probably 1 on 1 a Galor II. And sure, the Cardassians have a few hundred Galors I and II. Maybe a thousand Vetars and other earlier stuff, none of which can even 1 on 1 a Miranda. Maybe another thousand Hidekis (or whichever analog they had back then, Hideki is newer design, which is basically a runabout-class). Good for them. Federation has close to 1000 Excelsiors ALONE. Probably a couple thousand Mirandas, and Centaurs, and Constellations, and other legacy 2nd tier stuff. Probably can dig up another 1000 refit Akulas and Connies out of mothballs, and slap some modern shields and phasers on them, if needed. More then enough to flatten Cardassia 2 times over, and also swipe the neighbouring Talarian Republic along with it, just for good measure (those idiots from TNG Suddenly Human, who kidnapped a human kid and raised as their own, which Picard for reasons that escape me completely didn't just blow out of space when they threatened him with Xray lasers and Merculite rockets ROFL), without EVER dipping into it's 1st tier fleet of current ships, who are kept near the Klingon and Romulan borders. Get real. What saved Cardassia was the fact that Federation of that time was VERY conflict averse, and fundamentally pacifistic. And will always seek a peaceful solution, even giving away territory or making ridiculous concessions. Basically, if you're a middling, agressive militant power with more brawn then brains, you WANT the Federation as your neighbour. Because it will take a LOT of shit from you, and not stomp you out like a bug. Lucky for the Cardies they didn't try that on the Klingons or Romulans. EDIT: Actually scratch that. Given typical Romulan performance in prolonged conflicts... I'd actually give the Cardies half a chance against them, in a straight war. XD Only because the Rommies have a wrong kind of doctrine for extended conflict.
@@robertcapet9132 Niagara class, Cheyenne class, Freedom class. To name just three off the top of my head. An Excelsior can handle anything from 2 Type I Galors, a Type I and Type II, to a Type III (not yet in service), and even give the Keldon (deffo not in service yet) a decent fight. A Miranda can 1v1 a Type I on a good day. Centaur can do it on any day (and a Type II on a good day). Constellation can 1v1 a type II. Older Cardie designs like the Vetar can't even 1v1 a Miranda. Federation literally had no need to put anything newer to that front. Waste of resources. And sure, the Cardies have close to 1000 ships, in total, of all types. So? Federation has 1000 Excelsiors alone. Another 2-3000 Mirandas, Centaurs, Constellations, and other B-tier workhorses. They can roll over the Cardies twice-over, and never once need to dip into the A-grade ships. Sorry, the math doesn't work out. For the Cardies, it was a war. For the Federation, it was a border skirmish. Simple as that.
That was actually really cool. About half way through I thought those Galor Type Is are outmatched and the Cardassians were in over their heads, even by Mirandas. But even I forget that the Galor space-frame is just a tank. Those ships simply outlasted the starships. Central Command would be elated by this outcome: A Galor I battlegroup taking out a Starfleet task force with no losses.
I thought my ship was toast very early in the battle.
I'm sure the fact that the Starfleet task force was mostly old frigates and a clunky old cruiser did nothing to dent their sense of superiority 🤣
I think the battle would have gone the other way if an Excelsior was used instead of the Constellation, and certainly an Ambassador
@@adamlee2111 For sure. No way they attack if that task force has heavy ships. Or if they do, they have to send a squadron of Galor Type IIs with that unit to have a chance.
@@adamlee2111 Yeah but Starfleet in that was like 95% old ships so it is accurate! If you think about it the Cardies picked a good time to pick a fight. They try that after 2365 and they don't have relative parity anymore. They try that in 2330 and their ships are too primitive to compete.
Nice battle! I didn't know who was going to win that. I don't think I have ever seen a Galor Type 1 model in action. The durability of the thick Galor hull was the decisive factor in this fight!
Now you mention it I don't think I've seen one either. The Cardassian ships tend to be an afterthought unfortunately
Fairly even trade, unfortunately for the Cardassians. They'll have to spend several months in drydock for repairs.
Damaged ship is much preferable to a destroyed one. And the Cardassians take that outcome every day of the week. Every lost starship is a toll in blood the Federation doesn't want to take.
This is an average Tuesday, for the Cardassians. For the Federation, it's a tragedy. The mindset plays a big role.
No, actually, on a average Tuesday, they'd lose at least one ship. So this is a GOOD Tuesday, for the Cardies XD
Also, this battle is a reminder of how the Border Wars would have been fought. People think in terms of "The Wounded" of Starfleet capital ships whipping Galors. But the Cardassians aren't stupid. They would simply avoid the newer, more powerful starships and focus on the legacy ships. This battle is the perfect example. The Cardassians don't have to win big set-piece battles to obtain a favourable peace with the Federation; they only have to make the War more costly than a democratic society wishes to stomach.
Agreed, I think the Cardassians avoided set piece battles like the plague for that very reason: they would lose badly and they knew it. Far better for them to pick of isolated pockets of ships and only attack when they were sure to have the advantage 👍
I have a Border wars set piece battle on the way tomorrow 👍
@@adamlee2111 This is it exactly. I am an historian by trade, and a former army officer. When people say the Cardassians were to weak to fight wars with the Federation I look at them askance. History is replete with smaller powers fighting well against larger ones. There are two basic premises that people overlook: 1) What is the logistics situation for both sides, 2) Can tactical superiority overcome Strategic shortcomings? People often overlook that logistics and support can often mean a larger power is at a disadvantage fighting on the enemies home turf. This was the case in the Border Wars that leveled the playing field somewhat: Cardassia's smaller size was an advantage and the Federation's larger size a disadvantage. One only need look at the outcome of the Klingon-Cardassian War for that: Initial Klingon gains after operational surprise, but logistical and strategic impediments of 100 light-year long supply lines meant the Klingons were quickly bogged down, suffered from support issues, and then ultimately ejected in two days by a mostly Cardassian force (Dukat only had 80 Dominion ships to launch his offensive, the Klingons had 100s of ships in their occupied regions, as a consequence the vast majority of the attack force was Cardassian).
Looking at the area in which the War was fought it is clear that the Cardassians greatly benefitted from being on their home ground for several reasons. The border region, that later became the DMZ, is only a sector away from core Cardassian space. They have one major enemy on one front; they can mass their forces far more easily than Starfleet and its long borders and many enemies. Proximity: Not unlike the North Vietnamese in the US-Vietnam conflict, the Cardassians are able to launch hit and run attacks from their fortified border regions in a manner that gives them the initiative. They choose to attack when the odds are on their side, and if they are outmatched they can quickly retreat back into their space, which is fortified knowing full well that Starfleet isn't going to cross into their space to fight unless they send a major task force. This hit-and-run strategy is borne out when Chief O'Brien talks about the Setlik III massacre: They were an undefended outpost and the Cardassians attacked out of their space, hit the outpost, and fell back. Starfleet retaliation might take the form of large task forces entering Cardassian space to destroy an outpost or raid a system, or to bring the Cardassian fleet to battle. But an all-out attack to conquer a Cardassian system would be too costly to be a common occurrence. However, the Cardassians did launch major attacks aimed at taking systems like Minos Korva, that ultimately failed (Jellicoe dialogue in Chain of Command). However, large set-piece battles would have been a pre-condition to an attempt, so the Cardassians seemingly engaged in them on occasion and sometimes won. Probably using subterfuge and misdirection to achieve temporary local superiority.
@@crownprincesebastianjohano7069 This is a good synopsis. Plus the Cardassians are well known for employing trickery as noted by the Klingons in "Soldiers of the Empire." If the Cardassians ever engaged Ambassadors or Nebulas they probably tricked them into ambushes.
Meanwhile, Starfleet's best operational plans were to attack Cardassian installations they know they would have to defend, forcing them to fight on uneven terms. It should be noted though that there wasn't constant warfare, but periods of heavy skirmishing followed by periods of inactivity.
This type of war benefits the smaller side because an all-out conflict would force the larger side to throw all their resources into a fight to finish it.
One has to wonder if the Romulans paid really close attention to the conflict as their later strategy of confrontation with Starfleet only on uneven terms looks familiar.
@@johnghudjars3496 I mean, Romulans wouldn't need to do that, their ships are an even or near-even match for contemporary Federation ships in 1 on 1 fights. But the Romulans play it safe, so probably, yes. And I never got the impression the Romulans are very good on a tactical ship-to-ship combat level. They like to cloak, sneak up, and unload, but then they're out of their depth. Certainly in the Dominion War fleet battles, the Romulans suffered the worst, out of all 3 allies. Their big clunky Warbirds were just picked apart.
Ok, when i saw the equal numbers, I thought "that's not an ambush, that's a cocky Gul trying to make a name for himself, who will learn the hard way". An even fight?!
End of the battle - I guess the cocky Gul actually made a name for himself. More through luck then judgement, and the fact that the Starfleet battlegroup was all second-rate ships. Still... he'll be the golden boy at Central Command for a while now. Maybe even buy himself a promotion to Legate!
But daaamn the Galor can take a beating! And it needed to, here. When I saw all those ships focus you at the start, I was like - that's it. You're dead. But no, you really tanked it all (letting the other Galors live longer). I think the fact you were the focus early on, helped preserve the other ships in the group.
EDIT: Oh and the fact yours was a Type II Galor, added you a little extra staying power XD
Yeah I thought I was toast in the first couple of minutes! If starfleet flotilla wasn’t mostly old Miranda’s and a crappy old constellation it would have been a different outcome. Not surprised the Centaur lasted the longest
Yeah but the problem for Starfleet is in the 2350s into even early 2360s is that 90% or more of the fleet are old ships. Ambassador Class or New Orleans Class were scarce. One on one fights between older ships and Galor 2s was the most common fight! Things only change mid 2360s when Nebulas are being built in numbers and Spoonheads counter with large numbers of the Galor 3s.
Galaxy changes the whole game though even if they only built a few dozen. The reason the treaty happens is because Starfleet all of a sudden has more problems in 2366 a. the Borg, b. the Romulans are back.
For the Cardassians it is because a. After years of fighting they realize they can't push Starfleet back without total war b. Starfleet begins to pull away in the quality race. Galor 3 and Keldon 1 was supposed to even the playing field in tech because in big numbers it counters the advantage of Ambassadors and Nebulas.
But Galaxy Class throws that out of the window. So they make a treaty and the Cardassians actually make out well with getting a number of good systems.
@@robertcapet9132 Those 'old ships' were plenty powerful to deal with Galors I and IIs. And Federation had plenty of newer ships, it just didn't see the need to tie them up in a border conflict.
WOW!!! Great fight! I guess this is that war in a nutshell: Cardassians picking on older ships and doing well. Problem for Starfleet is they kept those relics in service waaaaay too long. This fight is more typical of Starfleet in 2355 than people would admit. Never seen Galor 1 mods before. Cool.
No it's not. Starfleet had plenty of newer ships, but they didn't deploy them to the Cardassian conflict. There was no need. A typical Excelsior could deal with anything the Cardassians could throw at it.
I don't think I've seen Galor I's anywhere else either. Odd considering how long Bridge Commander has been around
@@necroticavalon5176 That is simply not true. You are talking about a front spanning over 60 light years, right next to the core of an empire with large military forces. What new ships did Starfleet deploy on in that conflict? There is no need.
Really? What is that based on? Military outcomes are judged by the conditions upon which conflicts end. The Federation ceded more territory than they gained.
What new ships were in service in the mid-2350s at the height of the conflict? The Nebula? Not commissioned until the 2360s. New Orleans Class? Only a few dozen were built.
What other classes other than the Ambassador are newer ships in the 2350s that Starfleet as large numbers of that we never, ever see in TNG or even DS9?
The wreckage at Wolf 359, the fleet scenes in DS9 do not reveal numbers of any newer classes outside the ones mentioned above.
An Excelsior can handle a Galor 2. Ok. The Cardassians have 100s of Galor 2s and many more 1s. What are you containing them with? Mirandas so you can suffer heavy losses? Starfleet isn't going to keep large numbers of ships in the area? Don't buy it. That isn't how wars are fought.
@@robertcapet9132 Niagara class, Freedom class, Cheyenne class. To name just three off the top of my head. Niagara and Cheyenne are light cruisers, Freedom is a frigate.
An Excelsior can handle anything from 2 Galor I's, to a Galor I and a Galor II, to a Galor III. And can give a Keldon a decent fight. A Miranda can 1 on 1 a Galor I, on a good day. Centaur can do it on any day. Constellation can probably 1 on 1 a Galor II.
And sure, the Cardassians have a few hundred Galors I and II. Maybe a thousand Vetars and other earlier stuff, none of which can even 1 on 1 a Miranda. Maybe another thousand Hidekis (or whichever analog they had back then, Hideki is newer design, which is basically a runabout-class). Good for them. Federation has close to 1000 Excelsiors ALONE. Probably a couple thousand Mirandas, and Centaurs, and Constellations, and other legacy 2nd tier stuff. Probably can dig up another 1000 refit Akulas and Connies out of mothballs, and slap some modern shields and phasers on them, if needed. More then enough to flatten Cardassia 2 times over, and also swipe the neighbouring Talarian Republic along with it, just for good measure (those idiots from TNG Suddenly Human, who kidnapped a human kid and raised as their own, which Picard for reasons that escape me completely didn't just blow out of space when they threatened him with Xray lasers and Merculite rockets ROFL), without EVER dipping into it's 1st tier fleet of current ships, who are kept near the Klingon and Romulan borders.
Get real. What saved Cardassia was the fact that Federation of that time was VERY conflict averse, and fundamentally pacifistic. And will always seek a peaceful solution, even giving away territory or making ridiculous concessions. Basically, if you're a middling, agressive militant power with more brawn then brains, you WANT the Federation as your neighbour. Because it will take a LOT of shit from you, and not stomp you out like a bug. Lucky for the Cardies they didn't try that on the Klingons or Romulans.
EDIT: Actually scratch that. Given typical Romulan performance in prolonged conflicts... I'd actually give the Cardies half a chance against them, in a straight war. XD Only because the Rommies have a wrong kind of doctrine for extended conflict.
@@robertcapet9132 Niagara class, Cheyenne class, Freedom class. To name just three off the top of my head.
An Excelsior can handle anything from 2 Type I Galors, a Type I and Type II, to a Type III (not yet in service), and even give the Keldon (deffo not in service yet) a decent fight. A Miranda can 1v1 a Type I on a good day. Centaur can do it on any day (and a Type II on a good day). Constellation can 1v1 a type II. Older Cardie designs like the Vetar can't even 1v1 a Miranda.
Federation literally had no need to put anything newer to that front. Waste of resources. And sure, the Cardies have close to 1000 ships, in total, of all types. So? Federation has 1000 Excelsiors alone. Another 2-3000 Mirandas, Centaurs, Constellations, and other B-tier workhorses. They can roll over the Cardies twice-over, and never once need to dip into the A-grade ships.
Sorry, the math doesn't work out. For the Cardies, it was a war. For the Federation, it was a border skirmish. Simple as that.