What is Frank's View on Female Pastors?
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- čas přidán 10. 12. 2023
- Does the Bible support the idea of female pastors? It's not an issue that Christians should divide over, but it is often a popular topic for discussion. In this video, Frank shares some insight on the roles of women in the Church and shouts out @mikewinger, who's done an exhaustive CZcams series on the subject.
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So if there're three persons in the Godhead....
How many do the Trinitarians expect to see someday in the Great hereafter???
Dude wears glasses, glasses are made by witches so HYPOCRITE pastors can see better.
I dont remember in scripture where 33ad blind believers used glasses, i recall that they asked jesus for help and he spat into some mud and rubbed it on their eyes!
Great try tho!
Women are property in the bible. They are 2nd class citizens and less than that in the bible. They are to be subjugated in the bible. This is absolutely disgusting.
Just to be perfectly clear, you are okay with female pastors? As long as they are not the senior pastor? Please a simple yes or no.
You really need to repent of this response and take the video down. Its at best confusing, and likely heretical.
Hey that’s me asking the question! Sorry if I didn’t articulate myself well enough. God bless you all and the ministry that frank is leading ! ❤
U did a great job my man
No need to apologize, I really appreciate you asking this question and prompting Frank’s response. God bless you too brother
Awesome brother, God bless.
Every time someone asks, there's more who learn. However asked! So thank you my friend! :D
This was an excellent question and one I've never heard Mr. Turek answer. It was a really good exchange between you two.
No need to apologize, brother.
God bless you.
As a woman I absolutely agree. Women can serve the Lord in so many ways. But the Bible is clear. We have no place being a pastor. That role is for men and men alone
Woman here too and I agree. We are not to have any position of authority over the church. Lots of women today find this offensive but they shouldn’t. It’s not that we as females are “lesser than” or that we couldn’t be capable of being great leaders in the church (hypothetically). But it’s an *extraordinarily* serious (and often burdensome, I expect) responsibility that is delegated for the men to bear. They will ultimately be judged more harshly than us.
As I've always heard it like the trinity, it's not a difference in nature, it's a difference in relationship.
Well you’re a women so your view doesn’t matter
Women just need to understand how dangerous it is to be a pastor. They have to be so careful working with the Word of God. The judgement is great on those who twist His Word for their own selfish gains. What woman would want that emmense responsibility?
@@satyajitsinha4656 your name isn't that funny calm down
Please pray for a young man who was shot in the head three weeks ago in Glendale Arizona for preaching the gospel . He's fighting for his life and has a family. Thank you!
God Bless him and save him.
Praying for him
My prayers go out to him!
God be with him and his family
Sharing it with my Bible Study Group to pray for. So sad..
Mike Winger is one of the best pastors online, nothing interests him but the Lord and being biblically accurate.
So, if he's biblicaly accurate he's for the return of slavery and incest right ?
But he's lagging on some key subjects like The Sabbath day. I know it's not easy to comprehend everything at once, but I think he should do some research on the Sabbath as a prescription.
@@lovealetor6055the whole new testament is about principles, we all honour the principle of having a day off, but the sabath is for the jews, we dont live in the old covenant, please dont create division on issues like this
@@svenmuller1045 That`s correct, we are not under Law, but Grace!
He is pastor and NOT interested in tax-free money? Curious…
What a relief that Frank Turek is standing his ground on this issue. We need to stop this modern, feminist madness infiltrating the church.
Personally, as Frank had stated, there were exceptions to the rule. With that in mind, I interpret the scrpiture to advise women not to be in positions of leadership, rather than, the complimentarian view of completely forbidding women from leading a congregation. An analogy I use to understand this is, women and men during times of war and crisis - stereotypically the primary function of a women is to nuture and care for the offspring, where as the primary function of the man is to protect the family unit. This is because of men being naturally stronger and tougher than women who have the gift of being able to feed infants with their body, they are also generally more frail than men. For this reason, we see men being drafted to the frontlines of a conflict, and women being withdrawn from the danger zone with the children, because men are more well-suited to a combat environment than a women.
Now what happens in the abscene of either of those two entites? For example, a women that is forced to defend her offspring in the absence of her husband. Is she now, no longer permitted to protect her offspring, as this is something God had not programmed into her function as a woman. In reality, we see the women subsume both the role of father and mother, protector and nuturer for the family unit and offspring, in the abscene of a father figure. I believe the same is made applicable in these exceptional scenarios, where a church/congregation does not have a suitable male leader, lest they be led away from Christ, because of the lack of a spiritual leader. Personally, it should not matter what your sex is, that when faced with a dilemma such as this, anyone who is suitable should stand and preach the word as intended by God, whether you are male/female - the same as the men that are well-suited to combat environment.
Yes, I agree that we should follow the role model of Christ, and that women should submit to their husbands (this is ideal), but Paul also informs us to first submit to one another (everyone to everyone) out of reverenace for Christ [Ephesians 5:21-22]. I am just appeasing to reality and studying this from a practical sense, if any Christian is capble of saving others, why do we limit the capability of a women, simply because she is a women? Or is there more to this, like the duality of the suitability of men and women in combat environments, similarly, how well-suited are women generally, in that position of spiritual leadership?
@@drmatako4826 As Frank stated, prescriptions and descriptions. Exceptions are to be treated as exceptions, PERIOD. It’s funny that these suspicious discussions have reared their heads after the rise of feminism in our modern societal hellscape, but for thousands of years, Old Testament and New, there was absolutely no doubt about women in priestly roles: “don’t”. Have we really become all so wiser during the last few decades? Has this curious wisdom given rise to a better or worse society, I wonder?
Very, very sus.
@@drmatako4826
And we also see the results where for a majority of the time women who've willingly, or forced to because of the cyclical nature of this ongoing crisis, taken on the role of mother & father to sons.
Look at the, devastating to all communities, results in certain demographics of fatherless homes and homes where the sons are feminized by their single-parent mother examples. The sons hit the streets of the neighborhood looking for male role models and most often end up with the poorest role models available.
@@drmatako4826 I believe you have overthought this. Exceptions prove the rule. The rules are laid out to preserve hierarchy and function. When women act outside of their functions, they are dysfunctional. Dysfunctional behaviors are unsustainable.
What abiut great female pastors like Joyce Meyer? Marilyn Hickey , Viktoria Osteen. Those women do bear a good fruit. Or laye Kathryn Kuhlman? She had a hugr healing ministry.
I remember years ago Pastor Voddie Baucham received heavy criticism on live television for his personal take on this same matter and not once did he ever back down from his stance that the pastoral role in a church should be male. The panel of women interviewing him at that time moaned and groaned and were obstinately trying to portray him as a masogynistic bigot but in the end pastor Voddie ended up making all of them look like idiots by putting on a biblical clinic and destroying their feminist views.
Scripture is pretty clear on this issue and the reasons. People reject it because it isn't what they want to hear and obey.
To reject the Scriptures is to rebel against the Lord.@@ike8018
Link?
@@joelercoaster This was way back in 2008 or 2009 man. I was in my mid twenties. By now it might be somewhere within the ether of CZcams or the world wide web.
That`s music to my ears! God bless Pastor Baucham,
Mike Wingers teaching was so thorough. What diligent work went into all the teachings Mike shares.
If thorough means only criticize those who don't agree with you then you would be right. Unfortunately thorough means to objectively consider both sides and point out the flaws in the arguments that agree with you also.
@@TheMeefiveand that's exactly what he does. If you watch his videos, he openly admits to wanting his mind to be changed on this issue, but the Egalitarian side of the issue does not have an argument based in anything biblical or factual.
The dude isn’t wrong about everything, but I’ve seen some of the content that he has made that has been outright religiously condemning based off some crazy twisting. For example, he went out of his way to really hit the passion translation and act like it was some terrible thing and hint toward negative things about the translated and tried to paint him in a bad light. He went through the effort of bringing other translators in and they didn’t condemn it. He really went after it without truth.
@@sudokuboy9 Here's how Mike Winger dealt with "Was this just Paul's Personal Opinion?
He points out that egalitarians say that this was Paul's personal opinion because he uses the words "I do not permit." He cites Philip Payne who said "Paul often chose the first person singular to indicate his own personal advice for a situation that is not universal."
To counter this , Winger cites Douglas Moo. He quotes Romans 12:1 where Paul says "I beseech you therefore brethren..." and says that everyone takes this to be a universal statement despite the first person singular. And he claims that this verse fulfill everything that Philip Payne uses to say it's not universal.
Then he goes to 1Timothy 2:1 where Paul says "I exhort..." once again using the first person indicative
Therefore, he concludes that Philip Payne is giving you unreliable information.
So he tears Philip Payne apart by citing Douglas Moo but he just takes Moo's reasoning as gospel despite the FACT that the very scriptures he quoted expose the flaws in Moo's reasoning.
In Romans 12:2, Paul finishes by linking his thought to God's will. "... that you may prove what is that good and acceptable and perfect will of God."
In 1 Timothy 2:3 Paul once again links his thought to the will of God. "For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior. "
Ironically, Mike had these verses right on the screen but he failed to address them.
There is a huge difference between Paul saying "I beseech you by God's will." "I exhort you by God's will," as opposed to "I will" and "I do not permit." There isn't a single instance when Paul puts restrictions on women where he uses God's will as a reason. In 1 Corinthians 14:34 he says women should be silent in church because the law requires them to be obedient. In verse 35 he literally says "It is a shame for women to speak in church."
In 1Timothy 2, what's Paul's reasoning for not permitting women to teach?
1. Adam was created first.
2. Eve was deceived.
Again, at no point does he say that this is God's will.
@@TheMeefiveso whose will is it that Adam was created first?
Doesn’t matter what Frank’s view is. All that matters is what God’s Word says!
Frank is the woman the Bible is talking about. The scriptures are spiritually discerned.
@@dansaber4427what do you mean?
"God's word" could be anything.
@@5tw3b45tcf don't be fooled by the outward appearance of things. Frank is inwardly female to God's male. People read in scripture what they don't understand to their own peril.
Tell that to Frank and his hostility towards the doctrines of grace.
Brought up my man Mike Winger!
researcher extraordinaire
Man is a sinner. 🙏
Oh man. Shout out to Frank Turek for shouting Mike Winger out
Not to mention the 11 hours video from him. 😁
@@LSLuikart Bruh, Mike Winger is a freak 😒 But at the same time someone gotta do it. Thank God for him 😇
@@Lebone_Bona-fide IDK man, comes across as pretty egotistical to constantly make 7-11 hour videos.
@@josephpchajek2685 Wow👀
@QuietlyContemplating IT'S MY MOUTH! I CAN DO WHATEVER I WANT TO!!
And I'm choosing to stop shouting 😊 Thanks, great suggestion that.
@MikeWinger Mike and His huge amount of research getting name dropped!! Way to go man keep up the diligent and awesome work you do.
And you too Frank!! Saw you in person once and it was awesome.
Mike took eleven hours to defend his position. Why did it take him so long? He claimed he was being thorough but he was actually being biased.
@@anonymousbosch586genetic fallacy garbage
@@TheMeefive the egalitarian view is impossible to defend.....
@@DrDoerkfairness of opportunity should be the aim, anything else is discrimination.🐹
@@CR-yd4qe what? God's word needs to be the aim.
Your response shows me that you care more about what the world says than what God says.
It’s cool to hear Frank give Mike a shout out lol
It's not cool, it shows Frank is but a religious charlatan who has no clue what being called is really about, and instead of allowing the Holy Spirit to help him respond to questions, he refers questions from his church members to the teachings of another man. Church is not politics where you benchmark solutions with others. A man of God ought to hear direct from the Lord, and then pass it on to his congregation - not hearsay or conjecture! These are not men of God, but just theologians!
@@0761ZoRO he is limited on time and it’s a big topic. It is very cool that he sent them to a very thorough and well done video source. Have a good day :)
Love mike winger. Glad frank mentioned him
A few hours before his death, and instead of being satisfied that the end of his mission was approaching and being very happy to see the humans who killed him and others saved, Jesus became sad (Matthew 26:38 ), afraid (Mark 14:33), distressed (Matthew 26:37), troubled in spirit and perplexed (John 11:33), weak so that his father sent him an angel to strengthen him (Luke 22:43 ) and who fell on his face and knees (as Muslims do in their prayers) and begged and prayed to him who sent him with great insistence and several times into the garden of Gethsemane so that he would remove the died far from him as if he wanted to cancel everything (Mark 14:32-42)!!!
why Jesus made all this drama if he knew that he was only sent to die (sacrifice given by God himself (John 3:16)) and if he knew how things were going to unfold (his crucifixion, his resurrection) and if he knew that his will was worthless compared to that of his god (his father), why he requested the annulment of his crucifixion by praying to his god (his father) to keep death far away about him and why he was in all these states (sad, scared, weak, perplexed...)!!!???
but happy is he who believes without protesting or trying to understand… amen.
Pardon my ignorance, but I'm not familiar with him. I'll look him up, but what would you have to say about him to someone who is new to Christianity and apologetics?
@@joel2628 he is the only Christian CZcams I trust. I think I’ve only had 1 disagreement on a topic that I forgot, but he does a really good job of breaking everything down and explaining WHY to everything. I’ve watch all his videos except for the weekly Q&A ones but they have all been valuable to watch. The only Christian CZcamsr I’ve ever recommeneded.
Mike "Wing it", worst Xtian apologist on the internet, always a hoot when Atheists take him to school and makes him stand in a corner.
@joel2628 he is very biblically sound. He even says there are certain issues that he wishes were different but the Bible is clear and he will follow the Bible. He is only human so I won't praise him too much but he's good to listen to.
Love that Mike Winger is being mentioned here as well. I've been watching his and Frank's content for quite some time now with the Bible in my hands and I love the time invested in the studies, and the correct biblical interpretation of so many topics. ❤ God bless
Yep. We have no authority to disobey God or to corrupt His church with whatever someone else wants to see and feel
Never doubt that God our Creator is the Phallus. Deuteronomy 32.18.
@@harveywabbit9541
Liar & mocker. God being compared to a Rock is just that, a comparison. God did not form us by those physical means, Scoffer. Our formation from dust was supernatural & speedy. It did NOT happen over 'ill's of years'.
Husband is pastor, wife leads women's ministry. Husband commits adultery and leaves family. Elders open position for pastor for one year, no one stepped up, no one came in, the men can barely preach. What do you do? Close the church? That became an option.
@@ronaldoballecer3864
Aaron, the brother of Moses, was actually female. Her name reveals this secret.
@@harveywabbit9541 can you explain
Very well said Frank. Anyone who has served in a good church for any length of time will tell you how important women are...they are quite literally, essential to the health of a local fellowship.
Some feminists want to remove all distinction between men and women and that is robbing each of the things both excel at, and thus eliminating key parts of their role.
Almost like God knew exactly what He was doing when He made men and women different yet complimentary to each other.
No one was sending women aren't essential in the church body in their roles but when they try to take over men's roles even if it's a co-pastor it's still wrong if you have authority over men at all or even young boys of accountability it is wrong it's a sin Jesus made that very very very very very very very very very very very clear show Frank is not right this is not a good mention of Frank I'm hoping he made a mistake because he made it sound like women can be co-pastors know they are essential in the church in the woman's role don't like it take it up with God
Former believer here. I agree with you. Screw the leftists.
Explain then why Priscilla taught a man in the Bible? Paul had a lot of respect for her putting her name first before her husband 4 out of 6 times in his letters.
Because the Bible doesn't teach that a women is never supposed to teach a man...Paul's instruction, and God's general instruction is as far as spiritual authority, men are supposed to take that role. Please don't take exceptions and make it the rule. @@inchristalone25
Women are of great importance to the church because the spirit of Jezebel is alive and well in many churches. Most churches now reflect our modern feminist culture. Many men are opting out of church. Church has become just like the rest of Western society and much like our college campuses. What they all have in common is they are hostile to men. There are many churches that have a total imbalance of men to women in their church. And of course, women are the ones putting their money in the offering plate, so the church is going to cater to them. I no longer attend church because of these issues.
It's the law of nature. Men are the leader and guardians of family. However, there are exceptions. Sometimes women have to take the leadership position. And I think it's perfectly possible that some women can be gifted to become a preacher.
Excellent video Cross Examined. Thank you and God Bless!
Great explanation, Mr Frank! I totally agree…as a born as a woman , Born again Christian woman! 😃🙏
Good video and shout out to Mike Winger 3 hours per verse. That is not far off 😊
One could think three hours is a lot. But them you see the last video with more than eleven hours and think... we are drowning in a puddle of water just to not do what the bible teach.
The Mike Winger shoutout is awesome!! I've been watching mike for over a year now and his teachings have transformed my view and my walk! What an absolute legend!!
Im still working on Mike Winger's latest video. Ive watched the whole series so far (even the 6h45m on headcoverings). He does such a good job!! I tell everyone qbout it! Im so glad to hear Frank Turek recommend him also!😊
Next to choice of music, to me, this is just another wall in the body of Christ. (1.) I'm a man and I served as a minister under a female pastor for 23 years. Her name was Viola Dixon. And during those 23 years, I personally witnessed dozens of people saved, healed, delivered, and helped. (2.) To me, it is as simple as, let the Holy Spirit raise up whoever He will, where He wants, and how He wants. (Joel 2 : 28) ... (3.) And let us ALL be cautious of murmuring against, cursing, and quenching a work of the spirit - just because a certain church or ministry has females in high positions of leadership. Their worship may appear unorthodoxed, but if God through Jesus Christ is being glorified --- I'd say carry on! Preach! Get the word out!... STOP waiting on a bunch of lazy, narcissistic, legalistic men - who make the word of non-effect through their local traditions!
I've likewise witnessed the glory, power and majesty of God be revealed and manifest by use of a woman Pastor. It made me question my interpretation of Scripture and I came to learn the truth: that since the beginning, God calls both men and women to ministry. Sadly, as in days passed, men (women, too) harden their hearts against the Holy Spirit of God and so are unable to discern the physical from the spiritual. A married woman should submit to husband (physical), but all men and women submit to God, even if He manifests His glory through the use of women (spiritual). So, they're not even being legalistic - that's given them too much credit where non exists. They're completely wrong in interpretating.
Biblical example of women in ministry:
Apostle Junia (Romans 16:7)
Prophetess Deborah (Judges 4:4-5)
Prophetess Miriam "Mary" (Exodus 15:20)
Prophetess Huldah (2 Chronicles 34:21-22)
Prophetess Anna (Luke 2:36-37)
Pastor Priscilla (1 Corinthians 16:19)
Deacon Phoebe (Romans 16:1-2)
"But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned." (1 Corinthians 2:14).
@@Man.of.God30 Amen
@@Man.of.God30 Beautiful truth!
I definitely agree with you!
Always big respect!!
The problem comes in when "exceptions" are not allowed at all. Was Deborah God-ordained or not, same question for Pheobe. What about the prophetess, Huldah, who spoke directly from God to Josiah? I don't think there are a ton of women who are seeking out the head role, but the issue comes in when we put all of ministry, or all of teaching into the "not allowed for women" file. Where's the line? If we take the context of culture out of it (which goes into a lot of this topic), then a 12 yr old boy is considered a "man" and therefore all youth departments, all Sunday schools, any missionary to anyone over 12 should never allow a woman to teach/preach/give council to a male. Also, the only place I see where women are subject to a man specifically is when speaking of a husband/wife relationship. Other than that, submission is spoken of equally for men and women. Example: We should ALL submit to governing authorities, we are told to submit to one another, etc. Also, in these same verses the slave is told to submit their master.... does this endorse slavery for the rest of history, or deal with the people where they were at the time? Paul is the writer of these verses, yet he sends a woman to deliver the letters (that was a set apart position, for someone who would not just read the words, but also be entrusted to teach and explain them) and even calls Pheobe a deacon (which was a leadership position and not just handing out bulletins on Sunday mornings). Jesus allowed Mary to sit at his feet as a student would sit at a Rabbi's feet when in training. I'm trying to look at Scripture as a whole and not just take a verse or two and dismiss 50% of the church from any kind of authoratative ministry.
I would very highly recommend you watch Mike Wingers women in ministry series. All of the examples that you raised have, to my knowledge, been answered throughout the series. I know the time is intimidating, but he has done a good job at using chapters so you can skip to a specific point that you are curious about. It’s more of a dictionary than a novel in that way
@jamiegriffin3777 I agree, and there are plenty of men (and women) in pastoral roles who are starving the sheep because they love the adoration of being in that role. They idolize the role, so they will choose not to offend anyone with the truth of sin and the dire need for repentance in this late hour.
There are only a very few pastors today teaching the meat of the Word and brave enough to go against cancel culture. The message of the cross is offensive to those who are perishing but life to those being saved! (1 Corinthians 1:18) No one needs a 3-point message on how to be a better person and live your best life on this earth. That’s the nauseating pablum being dished out in the pulpits! Give us the truth that opens our eyes to see what wretches we truly are without the redeeming blood of the Lamb! Insult our selfish self-righteousness with truth that saves and equips us to stand firm against the deception coming upon all mankind. We must stop being babes in Christ and grow up!
@@jenniferwarren82 Amen! 🙏✝️
In the video he is pretty clear... "that is what did happen, not what is suppose to happen"... For instance, David sent a man to die so he can steal his wife. Does that mean we should do the same? Of course not...
Also he calls pheobe a servant, or deaconess (the world could mean either thing). And Deaconess may have meant something that was sub-deacon. So if its servant then your point is moot, and if its deaconess, you would have to prove that it was the same thing as a deacon. A Baron and a Baroness were not the same thing in Medieval times for instance...
@@chrismcaulay7805 Your example of David is so insincere when it comes to this topic. Of course not, and it's very obvious by Scripture that it wasn't condoned and there is no endorsement of David's actions, quite opposite with Nathan's rebuke. All of the examples I gave weren't just "what did happen" but were endorsed by God, Scripture, and the leaders at the time. Paul, under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, calls Pheobe a deacon (Greek word diakonos) and is the same word used in Phil 1:1 used to describe Paul and Timothy. BTW, it's also the exact same word used in 1 Timothy 3:8. I'm just saying that if you want to take that singular scripture, discarding a host of other scriptural examples, interpret it literally, and strip it of all context; then you need to finish the sentence where it says for them to "keep silent" and go to where it says that women are saved by childbirth and apply that literally as well. We also must make sure no women braid their hair or wear any jewelry because those instructions are given in the same context as well. You can't take half of a sentence and say, oh that's literal and has no cultural application at all and then treat the next half of the same sentence completely opposite.
Thank-you. The Bible is SO clear on that issue.
People always try to defend it because of personal bias in their own church.
....and when it comes to women "pastors," they do not care what God says. Just ask Eve! When I see women "pastors" claim that God told them to be a "pastor:" God will NEVER tell us to do something that contradicts His Word.
One of the most clear and plain teachings in the Bible, and yet, unfortunately, we still get Christians trying to reinterpret Scripture to justify their sin, as is often the case.
A great explanation of a respectful GOD given system that works.
Wow, this is amazing!
Thank you that was one of the best explanations by far. Loved the picture illustration. 🙏🏽👍🏽
Love it ..Dr Frank just a true biblical answer Amen Amen 🙏
Thank you Lord. You know I needed this today.
Women in leadership is a form of God’s judgment
The Christian Savior is neither male nor female, but is male and female. "He" must not be allowed to teach in any church.
@@harveywabbit9541what the heck are you talking about book chapter and verse that says that nonsense I’ll wait?
@@AndreWalsh93
The Savior, throughout the bible, is the SUN. There are no humans in this book of myth.
@@harveywabbit9541I see you can’t read English and that’s fine I don’t waste my time talking to who the Bible calls fools
Not regarding Deborah. That is covered in my
free postable essay on her. It includes scripture.
Us usual, an Excellent video from Frank. Thank You!
Great vid, thanks Frank. I would add that even in the cases of Ruth, Phoebe, Deborah, etc… they are not examples of elders or senior pastors. Complementarians can still say women can lead in certain ways but I think the main questions is about pastoral role
I agree! Deborah was a Judge which was a CIVIL job. The Israelites were a theocracy. She was only enforcing the law. She was not a priest. She was not teaching Scripture in a synagogue. Those are two completely different roles, yet so many women try to conflate them as one and the same.
Oh and to add. I also have no issue with women pastoring women. Because Titus 2 instructs older women to teach the younger women. The only problem I have is a woman being a pastor of men because that goes against the Bible.
And it's sad to me because there are so many ways women can serve in the church. Yet so many women are rebellious and want to do the ONE role God said not to.
It's Eve and the tree of knowledge all over again. Eat any fruit from any tree except this one. Women, do any job in the church except having pastoral authority over men. And what do so many women want to do.......
I agree. Churches I had attended in the past, who allowed women pastors, were out of God's order.
@@bunny_0288
It was NOT a civil job. The word 'Judge' in the Old Testament
does not translate to modern English.
canned reply below:
Since a woman could be a pastor in the Old Covenant, a woman
can be a pastor in the New Covenant. Simple really.
I suggest my short and free essay on Deborah. Men and women are perfectly equal spiritually. She was a pastor, according to the scriptures. This is how the Judges are described in Chronicles, by God.
A woman could only be given the authority by God to execute a man for his sin, if women are spiritually equal to men. A Judge could judge homicide cases according to Deuteronomy. Therefore Deborah, as a Judge, could execute a man for his sin.
A Judge was cleared to teach from scripture as he/she gave a verdict, according to Deuteronomy. Since in Judges 4, men went to Deborah to be judged, a woman could teach men, even in the Old Covenant in a public setting.
@QuietlyContemplating That was written by Paul.
He had a number of false, contradictory and confusing
teachings. The ones I looked at are in my latest essay.
But, hey, when one knows everything, being unteachable
becomes a virtue.
Glad to see the shoutout to Mike Winger! He's great!
He's not great because he teaches his bias rather than the bible. He presents himself as having really dug in to find the biblical perspective when all he really did was promote the ideas of those who agreed with him and criticize those who didn't.
The subject is controversial because Paul goes out of his way not to present his personal preference as the will of God. All Paul had to say was that this is the will of God.
As an Pentecostal faith person, I agree with Frank. Nothing is important than to obey God’s word.
You have such good clear answers
Mike Winger's suggested excellent CZcams (Women in ministry) study is very detailed and looks at both sides of the discussion.
He has just finished the last part.
I second this!! Extremely thorough and extensive study that looks through out scripture to understand the topic. Mike Winger is a faithful man and genuinely takes into consideration the egalitarian viewpoints and “debunks” them for lack of a better word.
The videos are very long, what view did he come
To
@@King-rt6qmwomen suck. Nah jk i didnt watch any of them bc i never have time but the last video is all of them and its 12 hour long
@@King-rt6qmA soft complimentarian
There are no "both sides of the discussion" because God didn't leave it up for any person to debate. There is only 1 side: God's. He clearly stated through the apostle Paul that women are not to possess ecclesiastical authority of any kind in church.
This is a difficult question, one that mostly depends on the adherent's Christian denominational background. It also depends on what you mean by 'Pastor'. Many people see a pastor as a leader. I see a pastor as being a protector, just as Jesus is, and King David was. The two are definitely, not synonymous. One fills a vacuum to point in a direction, while the other is willing to give their life for those entrusted to their care (Re; John 10:13 and 1 Peter 5:4)
Among fundamentalist, mostly Baptist and Pentecostals, women are usually relegated to ministerial positions that will not unduly, influence men. Robert Wright at Calvary Chapel Costa Mesa, the CZcams video refers to, has a background in Pentecostalism-fundamentalism. Often this denomination along with Baptist, expend countless minutes expounding on doctrines encouraging women to fulfill 'some sort of ministry in a church' at a condescending level.
To be sure, I agree at times, there are traits found mostly in men that make them better fighters. Yet, the definition of pastor is one who to is a shepherd. I'm not referring to the role the church has made into a position but the one the lord Jesus assigned to his followers (Re; John 21:15 - 19).
I would also debate that I have among found women, some of them, to be more discerning and formidable when it comes to possessing the required fury of looking after and protecting parishioners (Proverbs 17:12, Matthew 23:37) than what can be found in a man. As a man, a Black man, one of the most sickening things I've found among my own gender in leadership positions especially inside churches, be it, 'white' or 'Black' that I've attended ('Black or White' that are terms, totally unbiblical assigned by the definition 'Race' created by churches during colonial times) is, an almost callous disregard for looking after sheep.
Men are quick to point the finger when finances are low, and when someone 'errs in doctrine'. Hotly embrace Americanism and proclaim 'take this country BACK for God' but not notice when a single lone member IS MISSING from the congregation, perhaps for a month, without inquiring for themselves, or by one of the deacons, what the present whereabouts and status is of the person for reasons of health, physical, spiritual and mental.
In the many epistles the Apostle Paul wrote, he spoke from a Jewish point of view influenced by his Greek background to a primarily Greek-Gentile audience that needed instruction on the basis for a hierarchical structure inside the church, as well the forbidding of free-sex including, homosexuality. Paul, because of his expertise in Greek culture could do this where an apostle like Peter, could not. The use of the word 'women' in some of his epistles, may also be interpreted as being 'wife'. In 1 Corinthians 14:35 the emphasis is for the women NOT to question her husband in church (potentially embarrassing him) BUT, to do so IN the privacy of THE HOME. And WHO would the 'woman' be in this verse, if not a 'wife' WHEN she is married? Its time to place on our thinking caps, and ask, 'How does this verse apply to a single woman?'
Furthermore there are quite a few instances where women are leaders of local churches in The New Testament, some of them in fact that are pastors, that male-centered cultures over the last two hundred years, have misread the role and even names of persons, as being those of men (I have sources available).
I've written a fourteen page exegesis, titled 'The Role of Women and Men in The Kingdom of God' explaining the scenario of the ancient world where, God had no other choice BUT to use men as primary vessels, trying to teach men how to live in a world so fallen to be dominated by slavery and patriarchalism no matter the ethnicity or culture.
How many times one must point out that Adam was tempted but Eve only deceived? To Adam was given the command not to eat BEFORE Eve was withdrawn from his side.
The first thing Adam did when confronted by God about HIS SIN was to blame God for giving him his wife. The Bible IS clear on the need for male headship and in this instance, certainly a senior pastor SHOULD be a man. But the reason God 'made Eve subordinate to Adam' is most obvious, based upon the wrestle for power by Adam and Eve in Genesis, first over God and then, one another. Where no structure had been present there now had to be even as a witness unto the Angels, those remained as Holy and those fallen (Ref; 1 Corinthians 11:10, Ephesians 6:12).
It's almost as if God was telling Adam in response to his blaming both God and Eve, "Very well. Since you blame the women AND me and listened to HER instead of ME, you shall therefore learn (hopefully!) the redemptive process that will culminate in my Son-to-come (the promised seed), a Kingdom where power is bequeathed UNDER servitude". In this very sense one might add a man serves a wife and the two learn what God means by redemption.
One last thing, regarding the trinity; Jesus in his per-incarnate state, existing as THE LOGOS was not subservient to Father God. This role of the suffering servant was specifically assigned to him when he became man, one-of-us, in order that we might learn TRUE subservience to God, Jesus becomes our example. He must reign until he has placed all things under his feet at which point the son will be fully sub-servant to the father, the Logos who received further glory through Calvary (Re; 1 Corinthians 15:28). God has always been the Architect of creation, The Logos as the Engineer and the Holy Spirit, The Contractor. Despite the Holy Spirit appearing on 'the lower end' it is only HE who is regarded as the ONE PERSON OF THE TRINITY whom blasphemy against will NOT be tolerated, such blasphemy that usually comes from a reprobate mind.
I cannot tell you HOW many women I've had to explain God does not see them possessing any less authority than men in The Bible and the Church, only to be confronted again and again by men who find every 'question' of a women's 'authority' to be placing masculinity in jeopardy and in need of defending because they may think something is either 'new age' or not aligned with church tradition.
Tradition MEANS NOTHING! Only what God has to say on a subject is important! And, because God still speaks without contradicting his Word, people who WANT to hear must be attentive.
Maranatha, Lord Jesus!
You concisely wrote: "How many times one must point out that Adam was tempted but Eve only deceived?
Your chosen adjective "only" minimizes her lack of fidelity both physical and spiritual.
Temptation in the Biblical sense is a situation in which one experiences a challenge to choose between fidelity and infidelity to one's obligations toward God. Men compromise daily for the sake of wo-man,,, this is an unspoken fact. Adam was caught in a dichotomy btw his own flesh (withdrawn) and God's spirit (omnipresent).
You then added: "To Adam was given the command not to eat BEFORE Eve was withdrawn from his side."
So what? Yet another disclaimer to her disobedience. "BEFORE" lets her off the hook and hangs it straight into Adam's lap?
Is it not strange that during Biblical times, in the OT and into the NT a woman caught in adultery was subject to stoning, yet the man was never indicted... Today, we now live in a polar opposite realm, where all the men are cheaters, even though it takes a woman to allow a man to engage in a sexual act (by her consent according to the law) inducing the same infidelity we all now blame the man alone for. Sperm donors are scum, single mothers are sacred. Clearly the Prince of the World has this hammered out for the masses to slip on like a slithering snake.
Any Believer knows for certain they both clearly had an in-person active real time relationship with The Lord, within The Garden He walked with them, an exclusive place for Him and them to reside within together. She even repeated what she was taught and understood, by both her mate and The Lord Himself.
Please read each word of the following Scripture and explain where and how Adam is "throwing Eve in front of the bus" or blame shifting...
God Arraigns Adam and Eve~ 8 And they heard the voice of the LORD God walking in the garden in the cool of the day: and Adam and his wife hid themselves from the presence of the LORD God amongst the trees of the garden. 9 And the LORD God called unto Adam, and said unto him, Where art thou? 10 And he said, I heard thy voice in the garden, and I was afraid, because I was naked; and I hid myself. 11 And he said, Who told thee that thou wast naked? Hast thou eaten of the tree, whereof I commanded thee that thou shouldest not eat? 12 And the man said, The woman whom thou gavest to be with me, she gave me of the tree, and I did eat. 13 And the LORD God said unto the woman, What is this that thou hast done? And the woman said, The serpent beguiled me, and I did eat.
Does God come at Adam? Does God chastise him for "allowing" her to disobey what she admitted to clearly understanding?
"WHO TOLD THEE THAT THOU WAST NAKED?" God is wanting to hear from them personally WHO has led them both to disobey and then proceed to hide in shame and condemnation.
In the purest of observation, His fury is with the serpent,, who beguiled the weaker flesh,,, and she did eat... YES, Adam followed suit, both are ultimately duped by the prince of this world. For Adam, her flesh is his flesh. This event was predestined, leading the way for God Himself to save His own from the Dragon of Old, the Accuser, the Liar, the Murderer, the Troublemaker who roams about accusing the brethren and condemning mankind... Not womankind.... Wonder why???
The Plan of Salvation was already conceived before the foundations of the World according to John 17:24 & 1 Pet. 1:20.
The Bible states Eve was BEGUILED, she herself admitted such directly to God in the Torah. Again the New Testament would repeat such truth in 1 Timothy 2:14.
In the OT Hebrew it is the word 5377. NASHA: to lend on interest, be a creditor
Original Word: נָשָׁא
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: nasha
Phonetic Spelling: (naw-shaw')
Definition: to lend on interest, be a creditor
Strong's Exhaustive Concordance
beguile, deceive, greatly, utterly
A primitive root; to lead astray, i.e. (mentally) to delude, or (morally) to seduce -- beguile, deceive, X greatly, X utterly.
In the NT Greek it is the word 1818. EXAPATAO: to seduce wholly, deceive
Original Word: ἐξαπατάω
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: exapataó
Phonetic Spelling: (ex-ap-at-ah'-o)
Definition: to seduce wholly, deceive
Strong's Exhaustive Concordance
I deceive thoroughly.
HELPS Word-studies
1818 eksapatáō (from 1537ek, "wholly out/from," intensifying 538 /apatáō, "deceive") - properly, thoroughly deceived ("hood-winked"), describing someone taken in, and enslaved by, Satan (sin, darkness).
1818 /eksapatáō ("deceived into illusion") emphasizes the end-impact of deception - i.e. missing true reality because "biting on the bait that brings the hook!"
[As an intensified form of 538 (apatáō), 1818 (eksapatáō) means, "thoroughly taken in - biting the bait that hides the hook!"]
Strangely enough, Eve's account leans on the concept of her owing something to the serpent. She is indebted to the predator.
Even more interesting would be the fact Jesus Christ, God in the Flesh, all points tested, would be the One who would "pay the ransom" for all incarcerated within the fallen realm. We believers, everyone for that matter, was "bought with a price" according to Paul.
Paul did indeed repeat such, yet he does more of the blame game than Adam could be perceived of perpetuating. IMO his own alienated wife would produce this discourse. "He was a pharisee of pharisees". He was educated, steeped in tradition, a tradition which dictated the requirements of such, including marriage.... His wife and family disowned him after his Roman Road encounter with The Lord. Maybe the "thorn in his side" is the same issue Adam was within. It is self evident when Saul became Paul, he left everything and everyone behind, a traitor of the Jewish faith.
The prince of the world slithers around day and night accusing the brethren while seducing women to believe men are responsible for the infidelity.
Surely after getting caught, Adam would respond in the purest of Truth, carrying the burden Eve seems to disregard even today. Temptation in the Biblical sense is a situation in which one experiences a challenge to choose between fidelity and infidelity to one's obligations toward God. Adam was caught between his own flesh (wo-man) and God. Only traditions of men would tout Adam as blaming God and Eve...
How or where do you get: "The first thing Adam did when confronted by God about HIS SIN was to blame God for giving him his wife. The Bible IS clear on the need for male headship and in this instance, certainly a senior pastor SHOULD be a man. But the reason God 'made Eve subordinate to Adam' is most obvious, based upon the wrestle for power by Adam and Eve in Genesis, first over God and then, one another. Where no structure had been present there now had to be even as a witness unto the Angels, those remained as Holy and those fallen (Ref; 1 Corinthians 11:10, Ephesians 6:12).
They did not need "structure",,, Adam walked with the Lord, talked with the Lord, was in RELATIONSHIP with the Lord. These two were the only humans on Earth at the time who were in active relationship with the Father of Creation.
It's almost as if God was telling Adam in response to his blaming both God and Eve, "Very well. Since you blame the women AND me and listened to HER instead of ME, you shall therefore learn (hopefully!) the redemptive process that will culminate in my Son-to-come (the promised seed), a Kingdom where power is bequeathed UNDER servitude". In this very sense one might add a man serves a wife and the two learn what God means by redemption.
It seems you are playing the devil's advocate, coming in after the fact and telling her how things "really are"....
Jesus is indeed the only Answer! He bought us with a price, paid the ransom, set the captives free by taking captivity itself captive.
What folks need to focus on today is what comes immediately AFTER John 3:16... Who exactly the condemnation is for that Adam still wears to this day. Those who were never born from the womb of women, yet found themselves lusting after them.
He was indeed created a little lower than the angels. Emmanuel!!!
When people get caught up in only a handful of scriptures a lot gets left out. There are so many things that get left out of this conversation...it so sad to spend time with the Lord as a woman, come out into the world to fellowship only to be met with hostility from men who should, in theory, embody Christs love. Some places women cant even talk its so bad...
This is a false equivalency. On top of that, it's a deceitful feminist argument. God saying women aren't to be preachers doesn''t mean ppl are trying to argue that women shouldn't be allowed to speak at all. They are simply outlawed from possessing any office that would potentially give them ecclesiastical authority.
elora
Paul wasn't a perfect teacher. Remove 20 or so sentences written
by him and we all would have peace in this matter.
If you want a study the essay is postable.
I suggest my short and free essay on Deborah. Men and women are perfectly equal spiritually. She was a pastor, according to the scriptures. This is how the Judges are described in Chronicles, by God.
Do you follow Christ or do you worship your Earthly body?
@@user-iz8np3vv4i sorry for the late reply but i would love to have a read through your article, where can i find it?
i've been really digging into the letters of Paul and have discovered some of his letters have been fiddled with in translation. for example Knox has been known for his unveiled goal being to stop women from achieving anything in his time... some of the words Paul choicely used in the original greek dont mean the kind of silencing the 18th century scribes translated them to be... in my shock the Holy Spirit reminded me why Jesus was so set against scribes who lead laymen astray and reminded me that those who add or remove from the words of the Text have their judgment set for them.
i thank the Lord His power over His word remains regardless and His Holy Spirit guides us through all things, bringing healing and hope to our hearts and minds. even as we are persecuted by our very own counterparts in the faith...
yeah its okay being female pastor, dont get discouraged here in Indonesia female pastor are very usual, we treat female and male the same, im happy that the church in my country holds this view
great points description vs prescription, big difference
Mike Winger’s video, Frank spoke about, is great!
One thing of note for me in my personal experience is woman are the ones singing and raising their hands during worship, more than men. Women are more eager and crave God more than Men in my opinion. Ive heard women say things (outside of pastoral speeches, maybe testimonies or during worship) that are absolutely from God and were delivered in pastoral like ways aka Preaching! They preached from their roles and were still effective and pleasing to God. How many "church mothers" influenced kids more than "church fathers" a praying mother in your corner is sometimes all people have and by the grace of God these women are very effective sowers.
Women are all about feelings and emotions. Thats why they "get into worship" more. Its not because they are more holy. Its also the reason they tolerate sin and evil and corrupt everything around them. Because it "feels" right.
@@mastershake4641Took the words right out of my mouth lol. There are a lot that are really going right after it tho (so to speak). It’s just a fine line between Jezebel spirit muting out and emasculating the males.
Women are just too emotional to lead over men and obviously men need to steer the ship because of their masculine strength and being able to fight physical threats and make serious calls in danger. Women also have that time of the month that throws their emotions for a loop and that isn’t good to run 100s or thousands of people while riding that roller coaster of emotions.
@@mastershake4641 do men tolerate sin and evil and corrupt everything around them? or just women?
Love the Mike Winger shout out!
There never has been and never will be a woman pastor. But their are women that are children of God and who are lights to mankind.
I like that he mentioned Mike Winger!
I agree with Turek here, Mike Winger's extensive study on the debate between complimentarianism and egalitarianism is finominal!
So glad he mentioned Mike Winger! One of his videos is like 11 hours, so... yeah there's a ton of content there! Don't know of anywhere else you can find as thorough an explanation of the differences between the views and the subsequent analysis of them.
Mike Winger also just dropped a 11hr video lol
Women cannot be elders/pastors or deacons, hold any authority over men, or teach men in the church. The Bible is clear (1 Tim 2, 1 Tim 3, Titus 1, Acts 6, 1 Cor 14, etc.) Throughout all of Church history this was universally understood until the wickedness of feminism in the 19th century.
Yes I totally agree with you the way Frank made it sound is there's an opportunity for women to be co-pastors he said as long as there's a lead male Pastor he didn't actually say they can be co-pastors but he said all he defined was the lead Pastor must be a male which leaves room for women to be pastors under them which would have authority over men which is wrong I think Frank either got this wrong or he went woke or he made a mistake
Frank totally butchered this part. And he is wrong. He is not saying what the scripture is saying. Frank is adding to the scriptures
God is chauvinistic, who knew
@@lennoxnderitu3659no it just means men and women have roles in church. People understand roles in sports, but in church people don't understand. I guess it's chauvinistic to have a female play point guard when she can play center in basketball.
@@lennoxnderitu3659
See Deuteronomy 32.18, where the "Creator" claims to be the "rock/stone that begat thee." aka the Phallus. This Phallus is such a complainer in Deuteronomy. Jacob went on to pour oil (semen) on this upright stone (El) and was rewarded with the title "Israel." Israel is two words of Isra (Phallus) and El (God).
Not 3 hours, Mike Winger's Woman in ministry is about 24 hours over a series of videos. It's a truly exhaustive study. 😅
😂😂.
I believe it took him a year to complete it.
It's not an exhaustive study at all. It was Mike Winger spending a year attempting to justify HIS opinion on the role of women in the church. He quoted the people who agreed with him but criticized those who didn't. An exhaustive study would point out the flaws in the argument of the people who agreed with him. The subject is controversial because it is impossible to claim that it's based on the will of God. In fact, Paul goes out of his way not to attach God's will to his personal preferences concerning women.
@@TheMeefive Did you even watch it? It goes through every verse in the Bible that relates to women and men. 🧐😂
@@johnh6487 I watched it enough to hear the flaw in his argument about "Is this Paul's personal preference?"
He cited Moo who used 2 scriptures to attempt to prove that when Paul uses I it doesn't mean it's not universal. So he cited
Romans 12:1 where Paul writes "I beseech you therefore brethren ..." and
1Timothy 2:1 where Paul writes "I exhort you therefore ..."
His argument is that in both of those scriptures Paul uses the first person pronoun but the church takes these scriptures, not as Paul's personal preference, but as instruction to the church.
What he failed to point out was that in both those cases, Paul linked the scripture with the will of God.
Romans 12: 2 "...that ye may prove what is that good and acceptable and perfect will of God."
1 Timothy 2:3 "For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God.
However, whenever Paul states his personal opinion he doesn't attribute it to God
1 Corinthians 7:7-8 "I WOULD that all men were as myself. But every man has his proper gift from God, one after this manner, one after that. I SAY therefore to the unmarried and the widows, it is good for them if they abide even as I. But if the cannot contain, let them marry: for it is better to marry than to burn."
Note Paul's language "I WOULD" indicates this is his personal preference, and he acknowledges that God might have something different planned for the individual.
Paul uses that same language in 1 Timothy 2. In verse 7 he lists his credentials, emphasizing that he was ordained a teacher to the GENTILES. Not the entire church body. He follows in verse 8 with "I WILL therefore, indicating that what he says next is his personal preference and he's instituting these rules as AN ORDAINED TEACHER TO THE GENTILES.
Rule 1."I WILL that man pray everywhere ,lifting up holy hands, without wrath and doubting." Do you lift your hands every time you pray in church?
Rule 2: "IN LIKE MANNER ALSO (I will) that women adorn themselves in modest apparel, with shamefacedness and sobriety, not with broided hair, or gold or pearls or costly array." Do you think it's wrong for a woman to braid her hair and wear an expensive dress and shoes to church? Paul does
Rule 3: Let women learn in silence with all subjection. This is right in line with what Paul says in 1 Corinthians 14:34-35 that women should keep silent in the church because THE LAW requires them to be obedient to their husbands. If they have any questions they should wait until they get home and ask their husbands. Really? Would you prohibit women from asking questions in a bible study? Paul does.
Rule 4.V"2. BUT I SUFFER NOT a woman to teach. Note he doesn't say "God suffers not" or ""This is God's will" In fact he give four reasons why.
1. The law (1Corinthians 14:34-35
2. He's ordained a teacher to the Gentiles 1 Timothy 2:7
3. Adam was made first
4. Eve was deceived. To which I say Adam was worse because he disobeyed God willfully.
Nowhere does Paul say that that God says so. In fact, In 1 Corinthians 11:5-16, Paul acknowledges that it was a common practice in the churches of God for women to pray and prophesy as long as their heads were covered. This is in line with what God said in Acts "Your sons AND YOUR DAUGHTERS shall prophesy. And upon my servants AND HANDMAIDENS I will pour out of my Spirit, and THEY shall prophesy. How can a woman prophesy in silence? Can't be done.
So there is clearly a difference between "I beseech you ....that you may prove God's perfect will." "I exhort you ...for this is good and acceptable in God's sight." as opposed to "I will." and " I suffer not because that's not how I want things done in my congregations. Here's some flimsy excuses why I feel this way."
I'm sure if I watched more I could write another few pages showing you were Mike Winger went wrong.
Well thought out answer high respect for you
Wow Dr, well said, it's that simple. Great biblical response.
How is it a good BIBLICAL response? A good BIBLICAL response would be to say "It says in this scripture that God wants women to be silent in church and God does not suffer women to teach."
But since there are no such scriptures Turok equates what Paul said to his congregations to what God said to his Son. There's clearly a BIIIG difference.
@@TheMeefive Your view is noted.
@@TheMeefivehey, I’ve noticed you commenting around here and there. I was wondering why you seem to disconnect Paul’s words from Gods as if he wasn’t inspired by the Holy Spirit? Tone doesn’t come across well online, but I’m genuinely curious not trying to amp anything up
My pastor from a Nazarene church passed away last year. He was replaced by a female and I haven't been back since.
I choose to not sit under a female Pastor, but am now looking for a new church.
The Christian Savior is neither male nor female, but is male and female. "He" must not be allowed to teach in any church.
Man this is not important... the thing in here is the message, man or woman, just follow to Jesus Message.
We are always debating, if the pastor is a woman, will your not be saved... i don't think so it's just my point of view
I’m a woman and would NOT want a femal pastor
I saw the title of this video and just had to come leave a comment. It doesn't matter what he or any other man thinks! What does God say? That is the question we all should be asking.
God says whatever you want “him” to say. 🐹
@@CR-yd4qe No He doesn't. Read the Bible and find out for yourself.
@@RobbyStar1985 Read it ! (Well a lot of it) And he, it, they do. Maybe you need to read it 🐹
@@CR-yd4qe Yes, people change the word of God but He does not. Furthermore, you must read it everyday. Matthew 4:4 But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.
@@RobbyStar1985 “worship the Lord God and serve him alone” so why should any woman (or man) serve another.🐹
I love it when Mike gets shout-outs!!!
I strongly recommend Mike Winger’s channel, btw! Incredible resources from a humble teacher who is wholeheartedly concerned with letting his own understanding be shaped by God’s word :)
I have been blessed by his CZcams ministry
amen ! Brother Frank teaching according to the Holy Spirit written scriptures .
Frank says things in a much nicer way. The conclusion is that women should remain silent in the church. Period
@Badissweet silent is not what you use in western culture today. I don't disagree with Frank, but I'm not sure about your interpretation here.
@@danielsmith9130 I simply reiterated what Frank said. Read 1 Corinthians 14:34-35. It says exactly the same thing.
@@danielsmith9130 How can anyone misinterpret " in the church , women are to remain silent "?
If you misinterpret that , I can't imagine how many other scriptures you twist.
People are trying to make God's Word fit their wants.
Women are not to be pastors.
@@Badissweetno .. Frank says before she can do everything in ministry like teaching.. but can't be the senior leader .. why should you shut the woman up
This issue is why I left the Nazarene church. We can not let gender neutrality creep into the church offices.
Yes, the devil tries to blur the lines between women and men and now we have men thinking they are women and vice versa without order there is chaos.
Thank you! Amen 🙏
Frank is so sharp as ALWAYS.
So many wanting to be leaders and so few servants. People will fight over leadership but not servanthood.
Very wise comment indeed.
Instead of trying to look for loopholes in the Word of God, I'm just grateful to my Savior that my future isn't a bed in the Lake of Fire forever.
They do it because there is a lot clout and authority at stake. Just look at how the "Christian" YTers and apologists like a comment where they're being praised as being a great teacher or having a great mind. Vanity drives those ppl into wanting positions of ecclesiastical power. They can't get it from God, so they'll get it from other ppl who are just deceived as they are.
The devil had the same problem he wasn't happy with his position he wanted God's position.
Mike Winger in my opinion has done the best work in history on this topic. 9 videos, hours long, taking verses and quotes from both sides. Def check it out.
Very well put.
Love the comments. Perfectly captures the massive ego and Earthly self worship of people putting themselves before God and his design for us.
Description and prescription. That seems to be the common things certain people miss when it comes to the Bible. They also tend to not understand temporary prescriptions.
The problem I believe with many Egalitarians is that they're trying so hard to eisegete and bend the scriptures in such a way that it conforms to their views (which I believe can be shaped by the Feminist culture), whereas I believe that us Complementarians are just letting the scriptures clearly speak for themselves and exegeting them accordingly, without letting the culture or our biases getting in the way of the text itself.
I'm so glad Frank recommended Mike Winger, because not only does Mike spend tonnes of hours responding to Egalitarian claims in a way that's fair and balanced, he himself wanted to become Egalitarian before he started the women in ministry series, so he is in no way biased as to his Complementarian views, but because he's honestly thinks that that is what the scriptures clearly teach and I totally agree with him.
Yep, 100% agreed! It goes back to the first temptation in the Garden when the serpent asks, "Did God REALLY SAY this?
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Yes, God really did say. If you claim to be a Christ follower, that's the end of the discussion.
This might be true generally, (might) but as an egalitarian myself, this could not be farther from the truth, so definitely not willing to say it's true for all people. Honestly, it really hurts to hear that people think this about my theology. I used to be complementarian, and after months of research and prayer, I have moved to an egalitarian perspective. During those months of research, I wasn't allowing the culture to influence my view. I was praying, seeking cousel from both sides, and reading the word.
It is not helpful to paint people in broad brushstrokes. Unity in the body does not come from that. It comes from humble correction and loving intent.
@@michaelkvalvik7358 Have you watched Mike Winger's series on women in ministry? Definitely worth watching / listening to if you have interest in what scripture says on the matter. I suppose there could also be some misapplied labeling or incomplete understanding of the terms complementarian and egalitarian, but scripture really does seem to support complementarianism more than egalitarianism, at least in the points that people who call themselves those two things make.
There is an "optimum" divinely designed order to things, in which roles are complementary, which sin seeks to invert / disrupt. This is present from the very beginning of scripture and is found in many places throughout. Salvation itself includes restoration of this order as we willingly and respectfully submit our own wills to His self-sacrificial rightful loving authority. It returns our moral decision-making to where it belongs. It frees you to be entirely yourself without having the burden of responsibility of inappropriate roles. This is echoed in many relationships and structures in life. The family in particular is meant to illustrate and echo this in a demonstration of functioning roles and the benefits. This is one of the reasons the nuclear family is under such attack from the enemy and worldly culture is feeding the destruction.
There is a reason husbands are commanded to love their wives self-sacrificially, elevating them. And that wives are commanded to respectfully submit to their husbands. Men have a tendency to lead without love, elevating themselves instead of those they are leading. And women have a tendency to desire control inappropriately. "Your desire shall be contrary to [or: towards] your husband, but he shall rule over you." - Genesis 3:16. This includes the failings of both, men's flaunting of their rule and women's desire for man's role in ruling. When both are fulfilling their roles, there is a complementary combination of function where women are elevated and celebrated (and free from the inappropriate burdens associated with leading) and men are respected and valued for providing the space and freedom for women to shine. Everybody is then fulfilled and free, functioning in their design.
Vive la difference!
_"seeking cousel from both sides"_
This is the phrase that concerns me most. Counsel from who?
@@michaelkvalvik7358i am curious what was the most important argument that changed your mind?
I watched every minute of Mike Winger's videos on this topic, because I'm very concerned with this issue. It has profound implications, as you mentioned on how we behave and bring God's kingdom to earth. I take issue with his representation of the egalitarian theology. While he seems to do his best, he truly does not understand the exegesis of most egalitarian scholarship. At best, he's ignorant of the recent ideas, at worst, we turns a blind eye.
Regarding seeking counsel, I spoke to my pastor (complimenarian), my previous pastor (complimentarian) and watched all of Mike Winger's videos. I spoke to an elder at my church (egalitarian) and read a total of 8 books from a whole range of different positions on this issue. My research isn't done either. Don't forget that the bible prescribes us to seek counsel (Proverbs 1:5, 11:14, 12:15 & 15:22) I've prayed extensively, and scoured the scripture.
I don't wish to get into a debate about the topic, I'm mostly concerned about the division over this issue. It's ignorant to say simply that "the bible is clear" about an issue that is obviously not, just strictly based on the fact that many godly scholars, seeking to interpret scripture accurately, disagree on this issue. I won't say I'm obviously right and you'd see it if you just read the Bible, but complimentarians do this all the time, because "this is what the Bible says, dang it!".
really good analogy of the Trinity's relationship in comparison to human role of man and woman
It's a bad analogy because it equates Paul's personal preferences with God's divine will. God ordained Jesus' role in the Trinity. Only Paul ordained his personal preferences for the role of women in the church.
I agree. Women aren't to lead over men or be pastors.
@@TheMeefivefalse Jesus chose Paul as Apostle and Peter describes Paul’s writings as Scripture. Therefore Paul’s teachings are based upon Jesus’ teachings not merely human “personal preferences”.
@@TheMeefive Are we talking about two different books or a single book?
Excellent explanation
Why is it so hard to follow the bible the bible says a woman can't preach or usurp authority over man what is so hard to understand about this??🎉🎉🎉🎉🎉🎉🎉🎉🎉
It's hard to follow sexist doctrine is all. Many people just can't stand such discrimination
You have clearly allowed your mind to be polluted with modern day theology. This is why it is so important to spend more time in the Bible than online social media.@@katamas832
@@katamas832It’s not sexist. Men and women aren’t interchangeable, like car parts. A woman’s value isn’t t based on how well she roleplays a man.
Many people practice a better moral standard than the bible
Paul said HE doesn't permit a woman to teach, not the Lord. Stop being a misogynist.
I like the fact that God appears to have allowed that there can be exceptions to certain things, whilst generally giving us prescriptions as to how things should normally be.
"Exceptions" for Frank = compromises.
Great answer
Wow! His explanation of this is so simple and seemingly obvious yet so overlook.
Those 'examples'(RUTH, DEBORAH) are IN THE BIBLE.
It's simply not the proper order for a woman to lead. It isn't that they can't lead, but that it weakens men's role in the family, the community, and in the Kingdom.
A man who submits to the leadership of a woman is not able to function to his highest potential. In the church that means he is not able to appropriately lead his family back to God, which is his top priority.
Powerful
As a women, I agree with Frank's assessment of what is written in the Bible. I am secure in myself, and the gifts God has blessed me with. I take no offence to what men have charge over and know that God made people with different skills and abilities. Individually and by the sex's. I am no less important to God, my father.
God said in the end time children would be our oppressors and woman will rule over us. It's not a good thing. I'm a woman and I find it shameful for women to preach in the church. God used Deborah to judge Israel so obviously preaching and judging are not the same thing. Never was there a woman in the Priesthood but there were many women prophets that men could go to for advice, just not in the office of a preacher.
well said sister...sometimes I wonder if the anti-christ could be a woman just because satan loves to distort God's order of things (since the beginning)
Yes it’s a masculine role. It’s not about competency same as child rearing is a feminine role and also not about competency. Not having a shared understanding of roles is why the fabric of society is confused and divisive.
Wow. I recently had this revealed in scripture too. Isaiah 3:12.
@@Wong-Jack-Manbut the binary of male-female is not the same as masculinity-femininity, which is a continuum. Plenty of females exhibit masculine qualities, and, here in the real world, we allow them to undertake roles that suit their more masculine personality.
Here in the real world it doesn't matter how masculine you are when teaching. It's not about that. It's about the proper order of our roles.
People love to pick and choose what they want to be a prescription or a description on this issue.
Blame Paul. All he had to do was say "This is the will of God concerning us." Instead he comes up with some of the lamest excuses why he wanted women to be silent in church.
Reason 1, Because the law commanded women to be obedient to their husband.
2. His only legitimate justification was that he had a right to set rules in the churches that he established because he was ordained a teacher to the gentiles. 1Timothy 2:7
Reason 3. Because Adam was made first. 1Timothy 2:13
4. The lamest reason of all; Because Eve was deceived but Adam wasn't. To which I say Adam willfully disobeyed God.
@@TheMeefive
I did an essay on some of Paul's teachings. He doesn't
come out well. Some/all can be posted, should you wish a study.
nice shoutout to Winger👍.
Women leader can teach other women.... But women leader cannot preach over the men. They preach for the women.
However women leader can teach their own children like a mother . They can still give advise to everyone but not in authoritative means😊
It's a nice answer. Please tell me where in the Bible can you find such a thing as a "senior pastor"?
I think he means elder.
Elders are not senior pastors. There is no model for the senior pastor role in scripture.
God has clearly defined the roles within the Church, the body of Christ.
I use to put up a defence for women being in leadership, men ordained roles but journeying with Christ, He has brought me to the truth that women shall indeed not have any spiritual authority or be permitted to teach man.
Sadly, the branch of humanism called feminism has infiltrated many denominations around the world, especially in the west. We now see many women in male roles and sadly men within the Church are too bloody soft and weak to stand up to feminist movements and claim back their God given roles. Men have simply rolled over!
Women have a wonderful role of being a helper to man and filled with much wisdom. I often wonder if there is a link between the scriptures description of wisdom in a female term (see proverbs) and women themselves. I speak as a Jesus believing man who has failed to listen many times to my wife's wisdom, only to be humbled when I've messed up!
There is great teaching from the late Derek Prince on women's roles within the Church.
Do you believe women can be prophets
@@karlinwilliamson9329 Jesus said in the last days sons & daughters will prophecy.
@@NazSBGso you believe woman can be prophets.
Prescription vs Description - Pastor G. Craige Lewis explained this very clearly in his video Error of Man: Emasculation. For instance for all the Judges of Israel, the bible would start something like the “Spirit of God” coming upon a judge but for Deborah this is what is written ““Now Deborah, a prophetess, the wife of Lappidoth, was judging Israel at that time.” - Nothing like being called to do so but just doing it. If you examine the chapter further, there was possibly a “male” judge who was responsible but wasn’t doing his job. What happened thereafter is even more interesting.
Were Deborah AND Barak Judges?
Was Barak a Judge?
Was Deborah a Judge?
And when the Lord raised up judges for them, the Lord was with the judge and saved them from the hand of their enemies all the days of the judge; for the Lord was moved to pity by their groaning because of those who tormented and oppressed them.
-excerpt Judges 2
Now Deborah, a prophetess, the wife of Lappidoth, was judging Israel at that time. She used to sit under the palm tree of Deborah between Ramah and Bethel in the hill country of Ephraim; and the sons of Israel went up to her for judgment.
-excerpt Judges 4
The peasantry came to an end, they came to an end in Israel,
Until I, Deborah, arose,
Until I arose, a mother in Israel.
-excerpt Judges 5
Tola and Jair were also Judges.
..., rose up to save Israel...
Now after Abimelech died, Tola the son of Puah, the son of Dodo, a man of Issachar, rose up to save Israel; and he lived in Shamir in the hill country of Ephraim. He judged Israel for twenty-three years. Then he died and was buried in Shamir.
...rose up and judged Israel...
After him, Jair the Gileadite rose up and judged Israel for twenty-two years. And he had thirty sons who rode on thirty donkeys, and they had thirty cities in the land of Gilead that are called Havvoth-jair to this day. And Jair died and was buried in Kamon.
-excerpt Judges 10
The same phrasing is used regarding Deborah, Tola and Jair. They were all Judges.
Deborah:
Until I, Deborah, arose,
Until I arose...
Tola:
"...rose up..."
Jair:
"...rose up..."
Barak is never referred to as a Judge. He was commander of the army.
Deborah was the Judge over Israel at this time. She knew it, and so did Barak.
Now she sent word and summoned Barak...
-excerpt Judges 4 (above) Deborah summoning Barak.
She gave the order for the battle to begin that Israel won.
Then Deborah said to Barak, “Arise! For this is the day on which the Lord has handed Sisera over to you...
-excerpt Judges 4 (above) Deborah ordering Barak.
CONCLUSION
Deborah was a Judge.
Barak was not a Judge.
@@user-iz8np3vv4i "Paul was an imperfect teacher on a number of subjects." - you
That was really a good way to describe it. I came to know Christ under the ministry of a woman. So, this topic interests me. I can see both sides.
Biblical is the only position...Relationship, as given to us by the Lord, has a proper order that God approves!
Mike winger did a massive study on this, its worth checking out
The question deals with headship in the local assembly of believers. Headship is as follows: God the Father- God the son- man-woman-children. Women can serve the Lord by playing the piano or organ, they can teach other women and teach children. This is God's order. 1 Corinthians 11:3, Titus 1:5-9, 1 Timothy 3:2. 1 Peter 5:1-4
The man is the leader of the house because God said thats what it is. So if a woman can’t be the leader of her house how can she lead a church.
Frank explained that in a better way than I have ever heard. Makes sense to me.
Frank is so good. Love listening to his views and arguments.
This was good
Thanks
Shout out to all the winga-lings out there
Putting aside that Ruth and Deborah were judges, not Pastors, Ruth and Deborah where Judges by 'default'...what do I mean by that... its like in a family: The Man should be the leader, but if, for example, he cannot be bothered going to church etc, but the wife has a fire for the Lord and says 'no, we are going to church, then she is Leader by Default.. of both the Husband and the Kids in the family. It's not what God wants, but its better than the family not going Church... Deborah and Ruth are the same, Leadership roles by Default... and it is a shame upon the men of the time, not the women, which is why, among many reason, we hold Ruth and Deborah as great women of God.
In short, if men had the fire for the Lord, and had the backbone to take on the responsibility the Lord has for them, there would be no Women Pastors, or Women leading the family... But we don't. As so shame on those men, and they will be held accountable by God for their dereliction of their responsibility.
Ruth wasn’t a judge.
@@SpielbergMichael apologies, you're right, I was typing away with the words of what the man in the Video said and didn't think. Thanks for the correction :)
Deborah was not in the NT Church where specific instructions are given to the Church for its leadership and Ruth was NOT a judge. So yes, put that aside.
You make a good point. Abdication of responsibility leaves a vacuum that someone must fill. It is to the shame of men when women have to step up, because they aren't doing their job. Self-sacrificial loving leadership is easy to submit to, as it elevates the submitter, relieves them of the burdens of roles that are not theirs to carry and provides the space for them to express their own design and let their own roles shine. As the curses and instructions to husbands and wives show, men need to fight their tendency to lead without love (considering themselves "above" their charges) and women need to fight their tendency to desire control and usurp it. You can see all these things happening in the fall, inversion of divinely designed order.
@@stephenkeen6044 " Abdication of responsibility leaves a vacuum that someone must fill"
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I agree.... to an extent. But I wonder are there really churches that have NO male leaders? I think too often we're quick to plug someone into a space even though that's no what's called for. Look at how Abraham tried to self-fulfill God's promise of making him into a great nation by sleeping with his wife's servant! That didn't work out well at all, and his family suffered greatly for it.
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We're called to wait upon the Lord and trust him to provide. Too often, we get impatient and try to make up our own solution in our own time. Sure, if you need someone to get food to feed the kids and the hubby it not providing, then yeah.... do what you must to survived because there's no prohibition on women earning money. But to just plug a woman into a pastoral role seems a leap too far, especially considering there are many other options to be faithful to Scripture.
It doesn't matter what Frank's view is. Only God's view matters.
Description and Prescription, I like that explanation, it makes total sense!!!!! There should be no lead female Pastor overseeing any true house of worship!!!!!!!
Agreed 100%. Allow women into ministry, just keep the senior roles for the guys. Seems like a perfect middle ground for me honestly.
That is not biblical. Nowhere does it say the pastor qualification are only for lead pastors. It’s not about middle ground or not, it’s what does the Bible say.