Dealer Wants $7000 to Fix HVAC Buttons?!? - Part 1 (Nissan Murano)
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- čas přidán 28. 08. 2024
- Wow.
This 2013 Nissan Murano has a dead center control panel...no HVAC, no Radio, no NAV system.
The owner took it to the Nissan dealer 3 months ago for this issue, and got it fixed for $1200.
3 months later, the same issue occurred, but now the dealer is quoting him over SEVEN THOUSAND DOLLARS to fix the SAME PROBLEM???
Something doesn't add up...
Let's take this diagnosis from scratch and see what the real issue is. Place your bets NOW!
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Enjoy!
Ivan
Your honest diagnostics was completely worth the drive!! Thank you for working on our car!!
My pleasure! Hopefully it will keep working! 😉👌
@@PineHollowAutoDiagnostics Is this a spoiler alert that you fixed it? 🤔
We need a status, two years on! Still working?
Repair estimate: 7000$
[Translation: We do not know how to fix it. Go away.]
No truer words spoken!
Typical dealer diagnosis, computer say this unit faulty, spray connectors with cleaner to fix, if it still shows a fault we just replace the unit, it's been like this for years dealers just replace units, electronics are sealed boxes there is no fix (for dealers pov).
@@olivertaylor4779 of course they will just replace the entire unit because of time constraints, inability to rebuilt current control unit and liability.
It reminded me about the old day (in 1980s) when a PC has problems, you just isolated the problems to any components (motherboard, graphic card, sound card etc...) then just place with a new one or known good one. problem solved and life moved on. IF a component is still worth to go thru time consuming process to fix it then it will. But that process is ...
Yup !!! I've has many dealer and shops do this, they give you a quote soo high, they don't want to do the work, a nice way of telling you go away, we only want to do work that is easy fast and makes us $$$$
Here's a good one for ya:
My 2013 Suby BRZ threw an engine code that said "CAM actuator response slow".
I took it into the dealer and they looked at it.
When I dropped it off I told them "Check the oil pressure because low pressure can cause the cams to not respond quickly enough"
They looked at it and said:
1 - They will need to replace BOTH cam actuators
2 - The Engine code is a "persistent code" that they cannot delete so they will need to replace the ECU as well.
This was going to cost about $4000.
After they told me this I pointed out that the car had less than 200 miles on it since THEY had the engine out for the valve spring recall so THEY Get to pay for the work.
I also told them that the statement that they HAD to replace the ECU for this problem was BULLSHIT (I have a Tactrix and I can totally wipe that ECU and reinstall new code MYSELF, so I knew they were full of shit)
They (reluctantly) agreed.
So they did the work and had my car for two weeks.
I got the car back and I didn't even drive it for 20 miles before it THREW THE SAME CODE AGAIN!
I took the car BACK and told them to CHECK AGAIN.
This time they fixed it in 1 hour with a $20 OIL PRESSURE REGULATOR which is EXACTLY what I TOLD them to check the first time.
So I am confident that this was an attempt to GOUGE me and do a bunch of work on my car that was not necessary and it BACKFIRED on the dealer when they did not realize the car was under THEIR warranty for work they had just done.
So in the end they did $4000 work on my car and had it for two weeks and then had to EAT the costs themselves instead of backing down and admitting their mistake.
Customer: My center stack doesn't work.
Dealership: Have you met Jim in our sales department?
Absolutely !!
Customer: Why would I buy another piece of crap from this manufacturer. If I need a new car, I need a new manufacturer.
@@jkbrown5496 exactly my experience after I bought a Buick Enclave
One of the worst experiences I've ever had
@@dznuttzonyachin7499 details please. I enjoy hearing GM nightmare stories for some reason.
@@vw5056 I'd be writing a wall of text
Just look up the recalls and TSB's
Complete joke
And Buick of Council Bluffs, IA are one of the biggest crooks you could ever imagine.
They tried to get me to pay for recall parts, they replaced other parts without notice to me and tried to charge me 4x the price of the parts and threatened me to rip all the parts back off should I not comply.
Absolutely a nightmare and disgrace !!
Will never buy another GM vehicle in my LIFE !!
Heck when I was there they charged a 90 year man who just bought a brand spanking new vehicle 90.00 to change a headlight bulb. Granted some of the headlights can run a pretty penny but he literally had it for 2 weeks
Poor old guy bout had a heart attack right in the service department
I paid cash and I'd bet my life they didn't report the transaction.
$11,000 worth of repairs
Now Im scared to drive it regularly and trying my best to make it last.
I would buy a used one from ebay and whatever happens happens. If it fixes the problem you save thousands, if it doesn't it might help the diagnosis. Good luck. Don't forget we're waiting for part 2.
I had an issue with my 08 Suzuki Grand Vitara. ABS quit working took it in to the dealer and said the pump and module was bad. The part was $1800 for the ABS module and pump plus another $300 to install it. Took my car home got on Ebay and found a module pump from a auto wrecker in my own town for $200 with a one year warranty. Bought it put it in and worked perfectly. Then found another one on Ebay for $80 bought it and put it in the garage for a spare. Fixed for $280 not the $2100+tax for the dealer repair.
Try to find a used one
@@alanhester9984 Many times this occurs due to lack of brake fluid changes, the brake fluid absorbs moisture / water and destroys the ABS assembly. Yes new ones are crazy price but not as crazy as Nissan we have learned.
Absolutly correct. Time is money. If a used one fixes it or not you save diag time isolating the problem.
@@glenncerny8403 unless the used one is bad too. And shortcutting the diag by swapping parts puts you are no closer in determining that either. You still don't understand how to tell if the part is bad or not. You only know if you got lucky or not.
A logic analyzer or the same function on a scope (likely Pico scope has it), can likely decode the signals between the control interface and the head unit. The signals will change depending on buttons pressed similarly to how a keyboard for a computer changes. This should give an idea of whether the face is working or not and which buttons. You could probably watch for changes in the wave forms without the logic analyzer but the analyzer will give a numerical representation that should be easier to notice changes with.
Head to the pick n pull and you can get both pieces for under a $100 and play with it. It beats a $7000 bad call!
I'm retired from electronics for over 20 years,
I serviced all kinds of electronic equipment, from TV, to VCR's, to radio communications etc
In my history I serviced some very difficult equipment, and yes if I recall I had basically no recalls, for over 40 years.
I found a great many % of my service calls were very poor solder joints,
Every thing was mass produced and there was always solder joints on the PC boards that needed re-soldering, The joints always looked good, but they never made adequate connection.
That was what I always had done first thing.
I did go over every connection on the boards, making sure not to use to much heat to destroy components, semiconductors, integrated circuits etc,
Another little trick or 2 , when testing and things are hooked up ad you have access t the boards being open, use a little freeze-it or a heat gun with a narrow nozzle. !
They work wonders and you will never regret it
You might do good to pull those units, and try that, As for those schematics, I wouldn't give you 2 cents for them, They should have wave forms displayed with values, shape etc, and along with digital markings, losses over plugs cabling etc, and one should have extension cables to plug into ever socket to make it easy to test. So one doesn't have to fight the tight spaces involved in these ugly cars !
When servicing VCR's there was always wave forms signals and voltage readings etc,
Along with solder joints poorly made, look for poorly crimped wires in those plugs, Working for GE many years back, they had said which no one found except myself, and they would never acknowledge it, Expect the same with all car and any electronic manufactures, They want to hide face, Especially the bosses.
I have never worked on opening these modules that you have, so I know not how difficult it would be to do so
But if they come apart easily and you can get at the boards, you might spend an hour or so doing as mentioned, and may save a lot of money for the customer,
I would do it just for the satisfaction of knowing I did it and no one else could do it, I would not charge a customer for my time, spent doing this especially if it was not found,
Keep the knowledge to yourself and don't let the car manufacture you fixed it, but if you were successful, you could ask the customer for a token sum, with the hopes they are pleased,
The next one that comes in you will have the knowledge and solution, and could give a much better estimate to repair it, with the claim it is possible we may solve it, where the dealer would chare you for replacing a whole module and yet they may not have solved the problem, and explain what you did,
Another suggestion, make extension cables for yourself with quick connection points,
The manufactures obviously have that, but will never give you a clue they have it nor will they give you the rest of the info you need to service said,
They all want to have a throw away society so there is no one else making money off their products
It's been in the 70's when i worked for GE, and at that time they were leaning for 5 year parts only and their intensions were to have a throw away items and replace by modules or the whole item, while they wanted to make things difficult to work on,
Good luck and I hope these little things will help
If I had taken that system apart and it took me 1 hour to take it out and put it back, along with say 2 hours to possibly fix the problem, with the method i mentioned,
That would be a fair charge
Then I would consider also going after the manufacture making verbal sounds of defective product, for possibly solving their problems with a manufacturing defect if you can prove it, and them saying they need to replace the whole module at 7000, and you may need witnesses and a damn good lair @ spelling anyone?
Go after them for money and time you spend solving their errors,
You really end up with the most interesting ones. Great job.
A suggestion. Setup the Picoscope to do a Serial Decode on this CAN data. It is simple to do, and quick as well. The purpose of this would be three (3) things--
1) Determine if the same frames (data) is being sent over and over again.
2) Determine if the transmitting module is sending data or asking to receive data.
3) Answer your questions at 23:43, first short is Start bit, rest of those first ones are the Identifier, and these will be ORANGE in the CAN Serial Decode, and the last short is the ACK bit (Acknowledge) from Receiver. It may be possible to determine which module has the issue, with more time and deeper CAN Serial Decode. The Receiver module appears to be responding with an ACK. More below.
The first purpose is the most important, and with a CAN Bus Serial Decode on the Picoscope it will be much easier to determine if this is the case. There is much more that can be determined from the data you have, but just keeping it simple. Is the same request being sent over and over? Other information that can be gotten with the decode is if the transmitting module is sending data or requesting to receive data, how much data (that is, how many bytes of data). If you can find the CAN ID of the modules somewhere (maybe looking at information of a module with the scanner), you can also determine which module (probably the controller) is transmitting this data and which module is receiving the data. Note that the CAN ID will likely be in Hex format, not Binary. Just change the Picoscope CAN Serial Decode "Display packets in" to Hex instead of Binary.
Setting the Picoscope to the CAN Bus Serial Decode. First, to setup the Picoscope first click on "Tools", then on "Serial Decoding". Then click on CAN. Then on "Data" pull-down (top left corner) select "a". Then just four (4) more things to set. In the "High or Low" select "High". In "Baud Rate" leave/set "Custom" and the Baud Rate to "500kbaud". Set the "Display packets in" to "Binary" (to right of "Graph). Finally, on the "Threshold" set it to about 2.8 Volts. Note that we are only decoding one of the two CAN signals as they are redundant so there is some benefit to decode both, which can be done, but in this case it is not a huge benefit to decoding both. If you want to decode both just select CAN again, set to "Low", and threshold to about 2 Volts. Set everything else the same as the CAN decode using channel "a", but using channel b. You then click "Ok" twice when done. Channel "a" is assumed to be on CAN High and channel "b" is assumed to be on CAN Low. You may already know how to do this, so sorry for making this comment so long, but maybe someone else could benefit from this.
One last thing is a very short explanation of what you are seeing (at 21:38, in middle of screen). This is one (1) transfer. Note that when the two signals are at about 2.5 Volts, that is called the recessive state and is decoded by CAN as a binary "1", and when CAN High is at 3.5 Volts and CAN Low is at 1.5 Volts, a difference of 2 Volts, that is called the dominate state and is decoded by CAN as a binary "0". The beginning of the transfer will be ORANGE in the Picoscope CAN Serial Decode. This is called the "Identifier" section. The first transition (CAN High is 3.5 Volts & CAN Low is 1.5 Volts for a short time, a binary"0" is the "Start" bit. The rest of the function sets the priority. The more binary "0"s there are the higher is this transfers priority. This field will be either 11 bits or 29 bits. In this case I think it is 11 bits. The next section, the "Control" section (GREEN in the Picoscope), should be 7 bits long, the first bit indicating if the transmitter is sending data or receiving data, the next 6 bits indicating if the "identifier" is 11 or 29 bits, and how many bytes will be transferred (up to 8 bytes). This section may not be used. The next is PURPLE, and is the data, up to 8 bytes. In case some may not know, a byte is 8 bits, so there can be up to 64 bits of data in this section. It is hard to say without the Serial Decode, but this one looks to be 6 bytes. Finally, the rest is CRC, ACK, & EOF (CRC = a redundancy check, ACK - Acknowledged" BY THE RECEIVER, and EOF = End of Frame. These will be Light BLUE. The final bit, the ACK, comes from the receiver to acknowledge the transfer was received, and it looks like you are getting an ACK (the very last transition CAN High is 3.5 and CAN Low is 1.5, a binary "0".
I hope this is of some help to some. This is one case (there are a few others) where decoding the CAN Bus is beneficial to get simple but important information. Note that we would not be doing an in dept, detailed decode of the CAN Bus, just decoding enough to answer a couple simple questions. Since setting up the Picoscope to do the CAN Serial Decode is fast and easy (understanding the decode is NOT), it may be a benefit (IMO) to do so in this case.
I suspect that decaying of both CAN signals (High & Low) to 2 Volts is likely the cause of your problem. Or at least related to the cause of your problem. Good catch. It looks like both CAN signals are doing that, but not sure what exactly that means. However, if one signal of the CAN (either CAN High or CAN low) is affected, it will affect the other CAN signal.
And again, very good job.
Wow what a comment! Thank you for the details and info 👍
@@PineHollowAutoDiagnostics You are very welcome.
The most detailed response I have seen on YT ever, you Sir are a legend.
Sounds like you would have an incredible CZcams channel!! Intelligent and detailed comment! Awesome.
Some one knows systems.
Isn't it common knowledge that you NEVER go to the dealer to get your vehicle worked on? They have been rip off artists for decades.
You, sir, are totally correct! NO dealership - Maybe Firestone (not really) or Manny-Mo-and Jack.
The problem is originally the customer went in for a recall, afaik only dealers can do that work as it's the manufacturer finding a fault and doing a free fix via their dealers.
@@olivertaylor4779 Recalls sure but those should be a free service to correct a defect by the manufacturer. A lot of the time dealers will "find something else wrong" with your vehicle while it's in for the free recall repair and try to swindle you into unneeded parts.
They want you to trade up. Once you are gone they make the fifty dollar repair and sell, your car.
They don't call them stealerships for nothing.
Apply power and ground to the control panel and scope the data lines coming out without them connected to the rest of the car.
That will probably yield nothing. The control panel is just a dumb unit that responds to any requests from the AV master. It won't transmit any CAN messages on its own, only respond to the AV unit asking if there are any buttons pressed.
He came to the right guy. You take nothing for granted. You diagnose first first then and then order parts. Excellence in repairs everytime.
Great job thanks for sharing.
Judging from the comments Ivan you have some pretty smart people following along. Not at that level yet but still very interesting. Looking forward to Part II. My Son had a Nissan and after we replaced the circuit board in the transmission for $1.000 he put a For Sale sign on it! Thanks for Sharing!
I think you are most likely correct and the problem is the same fault twice in the button module. My first step would be to take the boards out of the button module and follow the path of the CAN lines, checking every connected component under a microscope. I would also try disconnecting the "telephonic interface module" and see what happens, since that seems easy. In this case buying Ebay modules may be a helpful diagnostic tool as well, since we are talking less than $100 (at least for the big module? not sure about the buttons module?). If the cost is that low, it seems fair that it is part of the diagnostic process to try a different module, when you compare it to the cost of diagnosis time and replacing with a dealer part.
The recall thing is extremely suspicious. Was this recall related to the main AV module? It might have even been programmed incorrectly or something.
Jessi If it was "programmed incorrectly" it wouldn't be dead in the water like this, Please do not post misleading comments. Thank you
@@user-ee1ki5lz5e Misleading? Huh? I am just speculating about possible problems. I don't think programming is the most likely cause.
Since the recall is indeed suspicious and seems correlated with the original button panel problem in some way, I would identify the recall (with help of owner/dealership or by looking up active and performed recalls by VIN and seeing which recall might relate to the AV/HVAC modules. Sounds like it was the most recent recall performed on this vehicle. Might be some interesting clues in that recall description.
1 11, you obviously haven't done much module programming. I've seen guys brick modules all the time. However, there's no way to tell how a module will react to an incorrect code file being uploaded.
@@user-ee1ki5lz5e I agree with @rtunison7 - I've seen improperly programmed modules be bricked just like this. Don't forget Ivan is not using a factory scantool so he is likely missing some codes, esp. security codes that will cause modules to act dead. Had this recently on an audio amp that was incorrectly coded to the vehicle.
Oh my God. That is horrible. Those dealers ain't got no conscience. Great diagnostic work by PHAD, Always a follower of this CZcams Channel
To be fair it is the manufacturer here that is to blame in thinking $6500 for a small part like this is anywhere near realistic. Parts for exotic cars don't cost this much!
I can't wait to see how this debacle ends, Ivan !!! Such the nail biter !! For certain the customer needs to write up their experience with this dealer and their "skills" so others are not suckered in to poor skills for premium dollars. I sure hope it's not solder going bad on those boards. I've seen a lot of that in my career. I'm on the edge of my seat !!
It appears the dealer was right. The module is bad. How is the dealer 'suckering" the customer?
@@gailtaylor1636 Part 2 will let us know who was right.
@@gailtaylor1636 the only reason I hesitate on that is because replacing the face worked for months... I would lean towards poor quality control on the face plate. If it were my I would double check connections and solder joints.
@Pine Hollow Auto Diagnostics
If you want to narrow it down further, you could always connect your scope to the front panel and power it, outside of the car completely. You should be able to read command codes coming from the panel when you hit buttons.
Looks to me like it's a board level repair to the front panel. Whether or not the AV controller is causing the fault in the front panel though....?
Bench test the controller panel .
Love a good CAN problem! From the waveforms definitely looks like the switch panel is corrupting the signal, I would check pins in the connector or look for damage on the PCB or CAN transceiver, suspecting a broken connection between your probe point and the actual CAN chip. It would also be really interesting to use pico serial decoding to look at the data, but just visually looking it seems like the sending module is constantly trying to send the same CAN ID over and over (same pattern every time, with constant spacing between attempts) so would suggest it's not seeing an ACK bit, meaning there is no other active CAN node on the network - which seems strange considering you have 60 ohms, suggesting both termination resistors are present, and at least one other module is there. I would be tempted to unplug the other telephone module thing that was shown on the diagram on the same network to see if you then get 120ohm, and maybe check to see if that module has power & gnd as I would expect it to be online sending ACK to the master controller (even if switch panel is dead / unplugged), unless it's optional fit and all the termination is in the master. Super unlikely, but I was wondering if the switch panel only wakes up when it sees a vaild CAN message, but that never happens because the telephone module is dead, so the master controller is just stuck continuously retrying because it doesn't see an ACK. As for the no DTCs, I would guess the factory scan tool communicates on the AV network directly, possibly to a different module (even though the master controller is one big box, does it actually contain more than one "module"?). Either way, looking forward to part 2!
Most of that I don't really understand but the fact that Steve is suspecting connector or board pins to connector I would agree with. Remember the front control panel was replaced not long ago and hey presto it worked - now it's back with the same problem. Must have messed with connection plugs when they changed it. Hmmmm.
The message spam could just be 90% composed of a single message (and that could be normal), and we only happen to see that one (perhaps due to trigger timing). Decoding would definitely be useful to see, though! It wouldn't surprise me if someone had already posted some of the message format somewhere online. I have found it for my personal vehicles.
Agreed. Decoded, it should be possible to comfirm there is no Ack pulse.
@@deniscarr469 9
Sorry denis, I accidentally pushed the wrong button.
Had an ABS issue about 2010 on a 2002 Sienna. Toyota wanted to charge me $6,600 for the repair. Module was bad. $3,400 for the module and $2,800 for labor installing it. I ended up finding an exact Toyota part online for $251.00 and I bought a bidirectional computer to bleed the brakes. The module installed in 12 minutes…no joke. $2800 for this??? I fixed the issue for $600.00
Stealerships need to be sentenced to prison for theft when they steal from customers.
Prison is too good for "Sales advisors" labor camps and forced marches for them.
Is not the dealer, is the manufacturers how they build with all these electronics, to run a ac unit you don't need all these electronics, but people keep buying these cars anyway. So who's at fault?
The module price is set by the manufacturer. However, almost three grand for labour?
I never, ever, ever, never, never ever trust auto dealers to do repairs.
What I did was subscribe to the Nissan factory Consult III R2R software and their on-line documentation. I had a problem with a customer's 2017 Maxima cruise control that I just could not see with my Verus (Ver. 21.2) or my Maxysis (latest update). In short, both of my go-to scan tools kept telling me that nothing, whatsoever, was wrong with anything. Well, I knew that was a bunch of crap because as soon as you hit "cruise" the car took off like a rocket and kept accelerating until you cancelled it with the brake peddle or the cancel switch. Color me surprised when I hooked it up to my PC (running the Consult III software I downloaded) and the Mongoose pass-thru I bought from AESWave, and saw that the cruise control thought the car wasn't moving at all! It also cost me $150 for a 30-day subscription, but I could have taken care of everything with a one-day $30 subscription. Bottom line: with the Consult III scan tool I could see that the module was not getting any input from the vehicle speed sensor... which ended up being a bad fitment issue in the module in-line connector. So, the next time I have a Crazy Nissan issue, it will only cost me the $30 one-day subscription and I will be able to see all of the codes (and PIDS) that the dealer can see. BTW: I've also started doing this same thing with Toyota/Lexus. They do the same thing... free software download with a short-time subscription. Honda whacks you about $850 for the software, but your good for a year. I've been able to make-do with Snap-On and Autel for my Honda scan needs, but it may be necessary to go OEM down the line. I just wish there was a universal J-box that will interface all the makes. The Mongoose cables are $480 for each make.
Great points. OEM scanner is sometimes the only way!
Great Tutorial again. I have always been a nuts and bolt kind of diy mechanic but got in to the electronic side about a year ago and have come to the conclusion that everything is produced to fail via a weak link by design now days. i now fix a lot of stuff myself mostly household stuff by ripping out the circuit boards bms etc and putting in my own and have no more breakdowns. Why not just build stuff simpler 'I mean its not a space ship its a car for gods sake lol
The troublesome thing to me is that decay ramp of voltage on the scope when the control is plugged in. There's probably something in the control head itself that is causing this. I'd check the capacitors in the control head, there was a generation of cap's that would fail and drag down control lines, power or signal lines. (cap's starting to short out internally)
I agree with mind thought. The decay in the signal itself maybe out of limits for the end receiving section to decode.
It may also be that a "new" unit has been sitting on a shelf since it was manufactured as an extra during the car's initial production run, so the caps may be old....
@@ckm-mkc
What part does extreme heat play in this area of diagnostics. Most industrial electronics are housed in AC. What is done to mitigate this issue in cars?
That's a good one, the capacitor plague was such a HUGE mess. It should have been past by the time this car was built but you never know.czcams.com/video/EUsd-Ri0VCo/video.html&ab_channel=ArrowElectronics
I'm a telecomm guy, I've watched a lot of your videos and I've come to a great deal of understanding, the modules and lingo is esoteric to automobiles, but the technology and processes that are being used is literally a LOT of the same things I deal with day to day.
I really wish there was a smart-meter for automotive diagnostics that is of the same caliber as our telecomm meters.
I have a Viavi OneEx and what these things can do when they're kitted out with all the bells and whistles (and firmware packages) is astounding.
I would try a hard reset. I did a rear mains seal and front pump seal recently on a Nissan Pathfinder. After re-seal I had codes for transmission. Verified everything! Did a hard reset. Codes gone. Everything fixed. This is something that is becoming more common. Now one of my diag steps, albeit usually my last, is to try and hard reset. These vehicles have so many modules that they now suffer from logic locks. Like a Windows computer that gets stuck.
For some reason, it's common to have codes that can't be cleaned on these, that a key cycle takes care of.
I dont know how i ended up in your channel a few days back, but you have become one of my favorite channels. Great work!
$7000 means they dont have a clue and dont want to see you again.
I see a couple suspicious things on CAN waveforms. First, the final pulse in each message is the same amplitude as the rest of the message. There should be an acknowledge from the MFS transceiver as the last pulse and it most likely would be a slightly different voltage. Second, the messages are quite close together, which could be a retry attempt, again indicating the MFS is not responding. It would be interesting to compare with a known good.
If it is the $7k repair, I'd light it on fire. My brother has an obscure murano convertible. The top malfunctioned and it was $16k to replace it. Luckily, he had an extended warranty that paid for it. The warranty is over now......no way I would pay $16k to replace that top again. It would be a viking funeral for me.
LOVE the biking funeral comment, plus it is a Nissan!
OMG he has a very rare and stupid car indeed!
I've had a couple of different convertibles over the years. The first had a human powered folding roof, which was easy enough to do. Now I have a car with an electrohydraulic operating convertible roof. However it stopped working the day after I bought the car (for a cheap price). So I just open and close the roof by hand which is not unduly hard (a clear "emergency" system is described in owners' videos. ). Easier with 2 people yes, but I can do it by myself. For me, I'd rather NOT spend some substantial amount of money on fault finding and repairs (likely more than the entire cost of the car). For my particular use of the car, the roof stays open for 9 months of the year anyway (a garage to park in at home, and I have another car to use on rainy days or for when parking at shopping malls etc).Not sure what a Murano is, I'll have to look it up now. cheers
And people are concerned about Mercedes convertible tops being expensive to repair.
With an estimate like that driving four hours to have an honest diagnosis is a bargain.
I would check the controller board closer and the days on the lines when pushing or turning knobs to see how it looks then. My guess goes on a bad decoupling capacitor or a bad joint. Could be psb backplane grounding issues to. But I would check caps first then data when pressing turning buttons :)
These Nissan center stacks have always given me a lot of trouble. Admittedly, I have run into a couple of them that I just couldn't solve without dealing with a huge expense on a best guess scenario. But in your current case study, I highly doubt it's the main head unit since the radio and steering wheel controls are still working. I wish I had some advice to offer, but I don't. This one looks like it might be a tough one. I'm looking forward to seeing what your conclusion is.
That voltage drop looks like a capacitor discharging on the scope. I would think the buttons board is dead again, maybe a bad power on the board because of a bad joint or a leaky capacitor, we'll see in the next episode 😁
That can signal reminds me of a problem we had decades ago. We had a board that we designed that the processor would start up , execute several instructions and go off into bobo land. We discovered that the technician when assembling the board soldered a decoupling capacitor to a via on the data bus! The capacitance did it’s dirty deed when that bit transitioned.
i know how it feels to figure out if making an expensive call is worth a try or not... i cant agree more that a part thats 7k, is a 7k diagnosis.. thats very well put Ivan. this is where basically double checking almost triple checking things pays off. Idk how much you charge for diagnosis etc but i would most definitely hope you make a damn good living off it, these video's prove a lot of yourself.. good diagnosis, hard or not, it pays.. I very much enjoy watching them, although, everyone's diagnostic procedures are and may be different but damn man.. you do a very good job!!
I don't know what you charge but it's not enough you are worth every dime keep the great videos coming.
If you have the ability to decode the CAN signals into actual data that would be my next try. Every module on that AV network should send data using a unique ID which will be the first part of the message. Log the data with all modules plugged in and log the data without the front panel plugged in. Now you can count or compare the unique ID's between both logs and see if the amount of ID's decrease when you unplug the module. That will tell you if it's sending out data. The front panel might only send data when you press a button so make sure to do that.
I find your content to be invaluable. It gives me insight into the world of diagnostics, exposure to interesting problems and unknown tools and procedures, but, more importantly, it teaches me how to think. On top of that I'm learning business practice and expanding my technical English.
So glad that you find this info helpful and interesting!
They would never let me do a case study like this at the dealership , and this was in the eighties and nineties, and I worked at all three ford gm and Chrysler
Ivan ,just one more thought from me
Try taking the front pannel out of the car and sealing in a plastic bag then put it in the freezer for a few say 5/6 hours allow to return to ambient temperature before refitting.
Its so easy to make money charging even half as much as the dealership and make an honest repair and keep the customer happy.
A good chance that connectors are crossed, nissan connectors on modules next to each other are not keyed to the specific module and may plug into the wrong module, we have seen similar problems caused by this. You might pull the av unit and check if av connectors are crossed with the ac amplifier connectors which on many nissans is behind the av unit.
Well it did work for 3 months, so I don't see how they could be swapped.
@@jtjones4727
Could something be sending power pulse intermittently to fry the face?
It worked for 3months after the dealer replaced it, how could the connectors be crossed it would never work! everyone wants to be a tech lmao.
excellent video.....it shows the extreme frustration caused by the 'advanced' electronics in these modern systems, and a genius-like diagnostic expert seemingly temporarily defeated by an overwhelmingly obtuse mad scientist morass of wires and signals and monitors all behaving badly
as an old man from a simpler time and place i regard these 'smart' autos and sensors and systems as Just One More Thing That Can Go Wrong writ large......in my world i prefer to open and close the climate control temp settings with a single analog lever and wires connected to actual heated water valves and air doors
I agree. I am betting on Ivan the Great sorting this pos out however. . Then the owner should sell it.
When you referred to Bernie Thompson over at ATS I perked right up. His waveform analysis is uncanny and incredible. Can identify wake up CAN signals to modules as well his compression waveform lectures are invaluable to the astutely minded technician.
Those module prices from the dealer are absolutely ludicrous. Complete highway robbery.
They have to pay for the new dealership building an the overhead of running it. 😁😁😁😁😁
I'd pull the board on the front panel. Something might have been spilled on the buttons and cleaned up. I'd also work with the AV unit, trying to force error codes (to see if it will). I'd also try disconnecting the buttons, key off, open door, close door, key on, and then scan for codes. It's just possible the AV unit won't detect the missing buttons unless forced to do a self-test.
The bias skewing down looks to me like some node is in "sleep mode", where the bus bias in the CAN IC is 0V. With the same message repeating all over again and again it seems the switch board remain internally in the sleep mode.
But it does not look like missing power, at least not for the CAN transciever IC, as in that case the transciever releases the common mode bias altogether, so the CAN lines won't be sagging either.
Normally any message (just two pulses longer than 5us) trigger a wake up event.
So it looks like the CAN IC gets power (at least the VIO, the logic interface one, either 3.3 or 5V), biases the lines, but apparently the microcontroller or its power management IC's does not want to wake up or it is just stuck (some capacitor failing, common problems are crystal oscillators if present,...). Or the transceiver chip itself could be bad, or in case the transceiver chip uses separate supplies for the transmitter and the rest, the 5V CAN transmitter supply line is nor working (such type of the transceiver stays in sleep mode when the VCC is below about 4V).
Would be good to know how much current the whole switch panel module draws from the battery. If it is below 100uA, it is internally in a true sleep mode. If it is in the 10's mA range or above, it is trying to wake up.
Definitely to me it looks like the switch panel is internally defective.
Relay or fuse. Might be because he had his auxiliary always plugged in. Also check for any new wiring for speakers or dash cams etc. but I think your on the right track something isn’t grounded out properly causes a relay or control module to overheat and shut down. Has he owned the Murano since 2013? What repair history or other work has the customer had done?
As a previous owner of an 06 Murano, I wouldn't touch a Nissan if i were a mechanic doing work for the public. They will get you labeled as a terrible mechanic or a shyster or both. Replace the alternator then the power steering pump goes out. Replace the clock spring then the fuel gauge quits working. And the list goes on and on but i'll stop there...totally unrelated problems but happened within days or weeks. I hated that car with a passion. I maybe had one three month stretch of no problems in the two years I owned it.
I had a coworker bring a truck over for me to look at. Cel, airbag light, steering wheel was off, clunking in front end. He brought it over for a severe coolant leak. Fixed the coolant leak and shipped it. He then said it was still leaking. I was like, yeah your oil cooler lines, trans lines and steering gear are leaking. Coolant is not. Total toilet.
Nissan is crap since Renault took them over.
If it were mine I would first do a hard reset of the whole AV system, then look at that front panel on the workbench. It could be something as simple as a cracked solder connection where that main connector hits that board.
You might find bad solder joints or overheated, bulging electrolytic capacitors. I've seen these in the Tampa Tech videos. They will mess up things quick.
On to part 2.
First thing I saw when looking at the scope: Button panel has a bad CAN driver chip which is pulling both lines low. It won't be able to talk back to the AV master unit and tell it what buttons are pressed.
Still surprising that the AV unit doesn't throw a code about its button panel not being there. It may be a proprietary code that you can only read out with manufacturer-specific equipment.
Crikey Ivan that's a tough one...Looking forward to the conclusion from the confusion..
I would be looking to see what drives the AV network, as it seems it can't source enough current to run the network. Another possibility is something pulling the network down, but this honestly looks more like a current feed, then a current draw issues....
Bench testing the button panel would be a good idea, but i suspect the AV module has a faulty bus driver....
Happy Christmas from Ireland Ivan
Love this video and the equipment you use to diagnose the vehicle. The Pico scope was a great idea makes you wish you had the actual Nissan diagnostic tool to verify those codes while playing around with circuit. Also most of the electronics in these units are soldered together with Lead free solder. After a few years the joints break down and either the circuit goes intermittent, quits working or shorts and destroys other components. If you open them up sometimes you can find loose components or components that have fallen off. Since the unit seems to be working from the steering wheel, I'd guess that you have a loose solder joint or ribbon cable inside one of the two units. Since you have the control panel out check the boards. If that's not it pull the main unit is suspect pull it and open it up and check for loose ribbon cables and bad solder joints and loose surface mount components. Take lots of pictures of how it was taken apart of course. Look fwd to part two. Thanks for sharing. Best Wishes & Blessings. Keith Noneya
scanner danners input would be interesting to hear.
I had a 2016 Lexus NX200t in shop recently. The audio module on it died when battery was replaced. Likely didn't close doors and wait until all modules hibernated. The module is $6600 at dealer. Used was $1100. Installed used. The audio module controls acts as interface to screen and other input controls and kills so many functions and it is that way on many makes now. It is way more expensive on that upscale RAV4 than on many known to be expensive makes. I don't break 'em, I just fix 'em.
The Toyota/Lexus shills need to read this.
Good one Ivan. Looking on Alldata, I found a TSB ‘2010 - 2014; Navigation System Reboots or Audio Controls Will Not Respond’ which is a software update in the form of a DVD loaded directly in the navigation unit. However this does not mention the HVAC controls also not being responsive. Also it would be important to find out what exactly the dealer did which seemed to start all this. Was it just an airbag recall or was there some programming??
I try to not put down other shops. Especially when I don't know the full story with the car, customer, diag etc. Just a thought, Good video.
1 the shop name wasn't mentioned
2 in this case, there was documentation with a written estimate.
I usually agree with your comment, but this is clearly unacceptable & unreasonable for any shop to do. I imagine just toss a number out there, high enough where it's not worth the repair. On the same token, they didn't honor their previous repair..... just grimy, especially considering the economy today.
In this situation it’s CLEAR they are in the wrong and actually deserve to be name dropped. Don’t want bad publicity then don’t screw over the public. If you are a dealership then you should be the authority on repairing your vehicles. If people have to go outside to get their car fixed then you have no reason to exist. The only way we’re ever going to start to make a difference is to start calling it out.
@@Jpilgrim30 While I agree with much of what you said, we still don't know what the problem is and it could in fact turn out that the $7000 part is in fact bad. Ivan already showed website pictures that show that that price is pretty much in line. of course if it was me I would be scrubbing junk yards all over town. :)
@@stevewhite3424 WE MUST BE OUTRAGED!
@@CubasAutomotive Considering the economy today? wtf are you talking about?
This would be a great video to consult with Eric O from South Main Auto!
I bet the moment the customer turned around from receiving that 7000.00 estimate, there was a salesman standing in his path, waiting to pounce!
This is going to be an exciting one no matter if the process manages to pinpoint the defective component
First generation Murano has three fuse blocks. One is under the dash on the left side accessible through a plastic cover. Another block is by the battery on the left side of the engine compartment (or your right side if you have the hood open and looking into the engine compartment. Third block, also known as IPDM (Intelligent Power Distribution Module) sits on the passenger side wheel well in the engine compartment (to your left if you are looking at the engine from front of the car). IPDM has a lot of fuses and relays in it and is worth checking it out.
Awesome video as always Ivan. Thought it was great you bought up Bernie Thompson from automotive test solutions because that's how I found your videos online. I'm trying to learn more in depth diagnostic approaches using an oscilloscope. Have you tried unplugging the multifunction switch to see how the data lines signals respond? I'm just wondering if it may possibly be causing interference in the signal. Thanks for sharing Goodluck with the repair! I appreciate other technicians trying to properly diagnose problems correctly and sharing their findings!
Good to see some Bernie love here!
Daht niggaa Bernie is the mannn. Love from Compton California
Borrow an Autel, then you should be able to see those codes. Even the $60 can read the U codes.
I would ask the customer to buy the $80 junkyard as a testing step. I think he will be understanding since that's a drop in the bucket towards 7k.
Had an identical on the wife's 2010 QX56 with a similar center stack. No codes. Steering wheel controls still worked. Bottom line - if the touchscreen thinks it's being touched NOTHING on the entire center console works. You can test this on a working system by holding your finger on any part of the screen and trying to operate the HVAC controls. In your customer's case, it's quite possible the touchscreen membrain has failed, not the control unit.
Great video. Yeah, most dealerships misdiagnose issues and try to sell the most expensive part to the customer nowadays.
The CAN transceiver on the multi switch likely has a blown output.
Locate the chip and scope the output pins.
The reason for failure might be static electricity travelling through the front panel switches instead of a missing ground. ( from PCB to chassis )
Well, ivan, i would unplug the radio module that square thing. Check the wiring see what the breakout box says. Tough call!! Maybe call the dealer and ask where did they get the u codes, lol!!! Great video! 👍
Folks, hold your beloved pre 90s vehicles close to your hearts lol. Life was simple!
I would take a good look at the circuit board and make sure there are no bad solder joints, burn marks or corrosion. Something is pulling that CAN signal down. Good luck! Looking forward to the answer.
It was fine until it went to the dealer… imagine that. The worst repair experiences I have ever had were at the stealership.
Sometimes they fix one thing and mess up 3 other things. Especially recall work.
Looking forward to seeing the progress on part 2
Replace the center switch assy it’s parts warranty for 12/12 free diag. Tool. Master Nissan here seen it many times. Radio units for older models
The least time consuming plan would be to get some used parts and work with the scope/scanner one part by one part. If the vehicles computer cannot give much more data than it has, there's no real reliable option to diag. My first concern at this point is to know what the recall fix was all about. It's possible they reflashed some modules/computers and that would be good to know prior to moving forward. Seems that this is the dealerships problem because the concern is back and likely within their warranty period. Maybe they have a factory scanner specific for this vehicle and more in depth probing of the network?
I had a similar experience but not in a car. One piece of equipment shorts out and brings the system down, when the part is replaced with a new one it is still down. So the technician replaces the other associated part only to find the problem still exists. Solution is to replace both parts an din your case the entire system. In my case it was a small transformer sending out a tickler voltage to an outboard compass on an aircraft. Replacing one shorts out the other and you find yourself in a loop.
The dealer didn't expect to get the repair job. They expected it to be traded in and them pay fire sale pricing.
Before suspecting that module failed again, I'd verify that the terminals in the connector aren't spread apart. The back probes only prove the wires have integrity, but they won't prove if the terminals are making contact with the pins in the module. Since it's a repeat failure in a short time, I'm suspecting this is the root cause of the problem.
I was also wondering about this but at this point, I just assume Ivan checks pin fitment every time.
Not a likely scenario... But anything is possible 😁
Waiting for Part II on the edge of my seat!!
I would try a different scan tool. Maybe that ThinkTool isn't able to properly access that particular system. After that, a used part would be the safest way to go. Sounds like you are on the right track. I look forward to the next installment. Good luck.
I'd be going after a used part first. 7K is ridiculous imo. At least a used part can help with the diag. I'll bet that's how they diagnose it at the dealer. Try another part... very odd it's not setting a code though. I'd also try a different scanner in case it's not reading the code.
I have the same car with bose without navi. I didn't have this issue. However, I recently replaced the screen with an aftermarket screen to be able to get GPS and streaming audio. The only buttons that work on my dash are now the ac controls and the SWC. Everything else is touch screen android. The screen came with a canbus decoder box, a harness that bypassed the $7000 part and a GPS antenna. I needed to install an LOC in the trunk on the four speaker inputs to the stock bose amp. Everything works great and I like it better than the stock transitional crap they had in it.
good for you Scott but what dos that have to do with anything here?
@@user-ee1ki5lz5e could always offer that to the customer as a last resort alternative to spending $7000 on a head unit. I dont know, what the hell do you think it has to do with it?
@@user-ee1ki5lz5e if you actually watched his video till the end, you would have seen where he asked "what would you do?" Putting in an aftermarket HU, is what I would do! Pshhhh!
J2534 protocol is going to be the way to go in the future for independents. Only problem is subscription fees. Not always cost effective to charge the whole fee to the customer.
this is like watching a detective!
this stuff is all so incredibly sophisticated..
That multifunction switch connector had a switched ground on the connection that you never checked it was the (V) violet colored wire. Timestamp 11:45 in your video, take a look. The Modules could both be good and communicating but no functions work because all the buttons use that switched ground for some reason? Just happen to notice you overlooked that wire. Best of Luck
Interesting case study. I'd scope that dedicated can bus to that front panel board to see if those packets are indeed replied to correctly. With a scope that can decode CAN you should be able to see the individual packets and them being acknowledged. If you see an excess of acks missing, I would assume the fault would be in the module not ack-ing all the time. That signal looks like some sort of bad termination problem but you're seeing 60 ohms. Do you see 60 ohms with both modules plugged in? That ringing may not mean much because the signals are quick and the grounding may be a mile long. I'm rooting for a "No Parts Required" fix, Ivan! :)
This is looking like a fun one Ivan! Looking forward to seeing how things go on the next video.
Open up the module consul, and a visual inspection, also the print behind the buttons.
Maybe a coin or a piece of metal make a short cut.
Greetzzz from the Netherlands 🇾🇪🇾🇪
Hello Ivan iknow time is possibly a luxury you may not have. However at the cost of the potential repair my approach would be to send out a request to have someone with the same vehicle in your area allow you to do some testing g on a known good so you can establish your base for comparison. Very interesting case study and I am also looking forward to seeing the follow up & fix. Keep up the good work.
I would check the domahicky connected to the thingamajig and call it a day!👍
Yep. Shorted-out on the whatchamahcallit.
Ivan,
Another great approach to isolate the most-likely reason for the faults being experienced. Great fan of your work!
Question: Where do you get the full-color electrical schematics you use on your troubleshooting efforts?
Quite an interesting diagnostic problem Ivan, can't wait to see how you proceed with finding out which component is malfunctioning and what repair is needed to fix the issue. I'm thinking that it may lead to component level repairs and that NPR is possible. Cheers!
Did you ever find out what the recall was for? Seems strange it all went wrong after that little trip to the dealer. How to proceed now? I would not have a clue - other than spending a bit of money on eBay or at a salvage yard. But I can tell you what I wouldn't be doing - that is taking back to the dealer and giving them $7k. No way. I would imagine the whole car is hardly worth that - even if it was all working. Can't wait until the next episode, very interesting to see how this turns out. This sadly is the problem with modern cars - everything clumped into one unit, if it goes wrong your likely screwed. Whereas 15 or so years ago we were all happy to have our satnav's mounted to the dash, $100 would get you another if it went wrong, radios were replaceable by themselves - so another $100 or so if that blew up. And hvac controls were separate switches - very little cost associated with replacing them. But nowadays it is crazy, all very nice having everything tied to one unit - until of course it breaks. Then you could well be left without a vehicle. (Unless of course you have someone like Ivan, now come on Ivan, don't let us down on this one! 😁 )
If the unit is kaputt I would like to know the reason. Maybe a cheap faulty electronic part ?
Yup this endless integration and module overload is going to take many modern vehicles off the road prematurely 👍
@@PineHollowAutoDiagnostics The difficulty is meant to make one buy a new or different vehicle, which is likely the intention from Nissan and many others, so goes the throw away society
@@PineHollowAutoDiagnostics They're building new vehicles to in order to force you to buy an even newer vehicle later on.
I had a recall on my dodge truck for the blower switch. They failed to attach the ground and i had intermittent problems for months finally got it repaired but i had to pay for it.
Early into the video so far but I would think you have to know what the recall was.. As Ivan reported the beginning of the video there was apparently no problem with the car until the recall was performed and since then the same problem has reappeared twice. What was the recall???
The front face with all the switches worked for 11 years and then has failed twice now, (apparently) after the recall. this is driving me nuts not knowing what the recall was. :) I do not believe that all of a sudden the faces are failing for some random reason Or that the control unit worked for 11 years, had the recall performed, and now is blowing up the front face once every few months. This is a weird one for sure, just wait till Ivan finds that it's some module in the trunk that controls the windshield wipers or some crazy silliness like that which I have seen on seen on several other cars, especially Mercedes, where an unrelated module can affect other systems for no rational reason.
March 16, 2017 NHTSA Campaign Number: 17V184000
Power Steering Hose may Detach
If the power steering fluid leaks onto a heat source such as hot engine or exhaust components, there could be an increased risk of a fire.
NHTSA Campaign Number: 17V184000
Manufacturer Nissan North America, Inc.
Components STEERING
Potential Number of Units Affected 56,766
Summary
Nissan North America (Nissan) is recalling certain 2013-2014 Murano and Murano Cross Cabriolet vehicles. The power steering hose clamp may not adequately secure the hose, allowing the hose to detach and leak power steering fluid.
@@Graham_Wideman Well that would seem to rule out the recall. 😀😀
You're probably right, it's not likely the controller unless they gave you the wrong one. How much is the car worth? KBB suggests around $7K.
Ok, First thing, Grab another Scanner and recheck for codes, The No code deal really bugs me. Then try a Global reset. Could a module be "Logic Locked". If nothing changes, Used Parts are available, I would buy both modules used and say a prayer. Good Luck, Ivan. Merry Christmas.
You mentioned the original recall repair that started all of this. It would be good to know what they did.
thank you for verifying continuity with a LOAD = bulb! AGAIN thx for writing down findings.
this is great.....it reminded me of the Apollo moon landing missions of the late 1960's where mission control would have 192 PhD experts looking into Houston We Have A Problem if an indicated voltage was off by 6%
Can’t wait to see part 2
Absolutely,I’m can’t wait……
23:00 the ringing is due to you using a lead instead of an oscilloscope probe, i.e. it's introduced by you taking the measurement. It's not there during normal operation. The CAN floating up and down by 0,5V is a real issue, though. I'm curious to see what's causing it. I have some ideas but those would be terrible design by Nissan, which I can't see them doing, so that's intriguing.