Zack Snyder on the "controversy" that surprised him
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- čas přidán 21. 04. 2024
- Zack Snyder says he was surprised by the "Martha" controversy in BATMAN V SUPERMAN. #happysadconfused #joshhorowitz #zacksnyder #batmanvsuperman
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Batman and Aquaman should have a similar moment as both their fathers are named "Thomas." 😅
And this is why it didn't work. He sees it as a logic thing, when it's an emotional thing. When you explain it, sure. But when you're watching it, it just doesn't feel right, emotionally. You can use logic to try to understand why it doesn't work emotionally, such as, trying to figure out if it just comes at the right time, if it feels contrived given the circumstances, or if it's just a device that resolves the central conflict of the movie too easily, or in an anti-climactic way that doesn't feel earned. I get the idea and the concept, but in the context of the movie, it just feels off.
Its literally an emotional thing.
He said it logically makes sense.
Lmao he EXPLAINED IT TO YOU.
And you STILL dont get it. Imagine being so braindead.
@RevJragon Imagine being so narcissistic, that you make understanding Zack Snyder’s awful scene choices your way of putting yourself above people. Seek friendships and connections with people and you’ll see you don’t have to be part of an internet cult to feel accepted. I implore you.
I immediately resonated with what you said. I had kind of the start of an idea (I think) but its like you put it into words for me!
It doesn't. For many people it emotionally hit them.
The way it should’ve been done is that instead of Superman saying anything Batman should’ve stopped himself and remembered when Alfred said “That’s how it starts, the fever, the rage, the feeling of powerlessness, that turns good men…cruel”. After that he looks at what he’s become an then drops the kryptonite spear.
Better.
Naw doesnt make sense. This is a Batman off the rails. Makes more sense having someone else put him back on track.
Classic nonartist opinion on artists work.
Thank god you didn't write the movie 💀
That wouldn't work. He had already heard what Alfred said, and he still decided to kill Superman.
He needed something new to awaken his inner self. Although I love BvS, I was also moved by the Martha scene. But I also agree this scene needs some fixing.
Only think that works is confronting him with a mirror of his own action, which is what happened in the film. Everyone was so hung up with the martha moment that people totally forgot the moment after: he saw himself become the same type of man that killed his parents
That's when he started to snap out of it.
Not too dissimilar to Bales version of batman tried to kill his parent murderer after him being in court
It’s more than Batman seeing Superman as human,
It’s Batman realizing he’s now the man with the gun, standing over a little boy begging for the life of his parents.
If Batman kills Clark, he’s killing his mother, by not stopping her death.
This is Batman’s realization he’s the bad guy, which allows Bruce Wayne to come back.
It’s not that we don’t understand it. It’s not complicated. It’s just stupid.
Why would Superman even say Martha? There’s no scene of him finding out Batman’s Mom’s name.
And if every hero & villain’s parents had the same names, would that stop all the fighting?
1. It didn't stop the fight, it stalled it. What stopped it was batman realizing he had become same person as his parents killer, not the name martha
2. Exactly! Because bruce doesn't know the name of clarks mother, it wouldn't have helped him screaming "save my mom". If Bruce stabs him, at least he would know a person names Martha needs help. That's a better clue than "a mother" needs help.
Which is the reason why Lois needs to explain after that it's his mothers name.
I mean that fight was epic, it was just such a bad way to end it
@@ComicBookGuy420 it's a great way of ending it.
Making Bruce realize he has become his parents murderer is exactly the only way to make him realize he has lost his way
@@MarkFilipAnthony
Couple of comments above you said it stalled it
Which is it?
No, it was not a great way of ending it, Miller wrote the perfect way to end that fight, and it had nothing to do with Doomsday or Martha
@@ComicBookGuy420 the world martha stalled it, it was the moment bruce realized he had become lile hs parents that stopped the fight.
I have not contradicted myself on this.
There is no sign in the movie that bruce didn't plan to continue stabbing superman after the name Martha was mentioned, he just got stalled for a moment due to confusion.
I get what he's saying, I'd hardly say its the best scene in the movie but the hate that it got always seemed unnecessary to me.
My problem was, if he'd adapted it as written, as he claimed he was going to, that epic fight scene would have had a much better conclusion
We all got the intended meaning... it was just really stupid that that's the way we got there
It wasn't stupid.
Why did Zack have Kevin Costner commit suicide in front of his wife and kid by going into a tornado to chase a dog? That traumatic event left Martha widowed, destitute and homeless and made Clark an orphan Again.
to me, it’s that no one knew what clark was capable of at that age, they only knew about super strength, and that was not going to be much of a help, Johnathan knew, that Clark was better of making sure, that everyone’s safe, rather that act irrationally, they couldn’t risk it, man simply made priorities, which is his son and other people.
Becuase the risk was: his life, or the potential scenario thar just a kid now had the responsibility to carry the worlds issues on his shoulders.
Did u even see the movie? Whole point of it was to make sure clark was mentally and emotionally ready to be superman, and even when zod shows up he wasn't, but he didn't feel he had a choice
It’s a fun moment, do think it’s touching after he promises Clark not to let his mother die that night.
The more Zack speaks, the more he proves everyone right: he does not know how to tell a story.
His best movies are the ones where someone else has done the hard work for him, 300, Dawn of the dead, Watchmen.
Watchmen he ruined
Let's repear after me: He. Did. Not. Write. The. Script.
Yeah no. Thats your bullshit bad faith view of his words.
He ruined nothing
Agreed
People don't get it because it wasn't the name. It was the scenario.
Batman was about to kill a kid that tries to protect his mother.
Ergo Bruce suddenly saw himself as a person like his parents killer, the one thing he hated the most.
"Martha" confused him yes, but him trying to kill basically a innocent child, that's what snapped him back, he had become the one thing he hated the most.
It had nothing to do with them having a parent with the same name, that was just a coincidence that made him stop for a moment and rethink what he was doing.
There is no defending that or the rest of what he did to the movie😂
No need to defend.
@@thewitcherking937
There is if you read Dark Knight returns
@@ComicBookGuy420 I have. This wasn't adapting it.
@@thewitcherking937 that isn't what Snyder said🤣
@@thewitcherking937
See if you had actually read it, or any of the others Snyder allegedly read to adapt, as he repeatedly stated he did, there is no way you would be trying so hard to defend Dawn of Justice
I mean Doomsday alone🤣
Was a great scene😊 So great it deepened people's understanding of the movie and their love for Zacks work, and also brought all haters together through a meme😂
Reminds of the Kirk death scene in "Star Trek - Generations". It was meant to subvert expectations but instead of being surprising it was just irritating because it came too much out of left field.
People thought it didnt make any sense, cause Superman was saying save Martha instead of my mum. Well, if you watch the scene again u can see Clark trying to say Martha Kent. He mouths Kent, but Batman is standing on his throat se he cant say it.
Oh that's a cool detail! I Need to rewatch it now
@@MarkFilipAnthony do it spread the word
People thought It didn't make any sense because instead of Superman being sent after batman by the president, as written, somebody noticed their names were the same and decided to make the movie turn on that
What really sucks is until that point, the fight was actually pretty good
@@ComicBookGuy420 Why the fuck would president send Superman after Batman? They might as well mind control him. This is completely different version of Superman in different time of his life. Btw originally they had save my mum as a line, but Amy Adams noticed they have the same name.
@@kubabrezina8038
Because when Miller wrote Dark Knight returns it was set in the 80s and superman was known to co-operate with the govt in the comics
The part near the start where batman is branding criminals and ect
That kind of brutality is what put him on the president's radar, on top of the fact the govt told the JL to stop operations, all these small little things add up to superman working for the president, sent after batman to first warn him, then to stop him
With the massive plot issues in BvS you think that story is bad
Really?
we understand the concept of Bats seeing Superman as human for the first time, the problem with it is it is the most contrived badly written BS i've ever seen in a big budget movie.
It’s not even close to the most contrived, and badly written BS in a big budget movie.
I mean, unless you haven’t seen many movies, that’s just ridiculous hyperbole.
Watch the live action Super Mario Bros. movie, and tell me it’s not worse. You’d be either lying or just ignorant of what a contrived, and badly written movie is.
I agree, that BvS is a bad movie, that’s poorly written, but it’s far from the worst. It’s not even Snyder’s worst.
Contrived is not the word I’d use for BvS, because of course the writing was deliberately done, and a story about superheroes can only be so realistic.
I don’t think it feels contrived. I think it feels underwritten. Bruce, who is opposed to a genius, a detective, decides to blame and kill Superman, even after though he knows they’d all be dead, if he hadn’t stopped Zod.
Batman is so poorly written, and Clark is just barely written to have any personality, besides “I love Lois,” “I want to help,” and “I don’t know how to deal with this…”
The entire conflict, before someone the actual Bruce, would’ve been investigating very thoroughly, and were half shown he does, is able to create a bigger threat.
Bruce figures out everything in half a minute, after the Martha moment. That’s just bad writing.
The two Rebel Moon movies, show he’s even worse, now.
The Vegas heist in a Zonbie movie, was fun in parts, but overall, just an average movie.
Then you haven't seen any big budget movie.
Great films didn't got made by fillers bro , you said give me more fillers that's it only the Martha subject.....
Bro we are watching the batman movie we want the continuity of the story for each sec not a fillers where we detach from the movie for 1 min , now you are saying that's it ???
You are just avoiding....
Batman losing his kill rage after hearing the name of his mother gets a bunch of hate from maidenless Marvel nerds,
but when Captain America bombs an entire hospital full of innocent people after hearing the name Bucky none of these neckbeards in Iron-Man shirts bat an eye.
The hate this man gets is 100% fabricated and forced by a bunch of brain ded gatekeepers.
I never understood the rage about that scene. I mean, it's okay if you don't like it but all that hate did not make any sense in my opinion.
Because it was dumb are you telling me our heroes got together because their moms are named Martha how dumb is that Zack should retire he’s trying to Joe Biden
@@krpyton7368 it's not because they have the same name it because it made batman realize he has fallen to the darkness that he becomes that thing he hates
Because if they'd adapted it as written, their names wouldn't have mattered, superman gets sent to stop batman, simple, clean
What gets me is, the fight scene in the movie was actually pretty good until that point
WHY DID YOU SAY THAT NAME?!?
I haven't seen anything from this guy that was exceptional. 'Rebel Moon' was simply a Star Wars ripoff, badly directed, second one wasn't any better. He wants to make six movies out of this me? No thanks. He's overrated.
That's your issue. Calling it a star wars rip off is just bullshit.
@@thewitcherking937 except that quite a few including a few critics said the same thing. So you're not paying attention. The similarities are too numerous to miss. Apparently I expect more from a movie.
@@richsmith7200 just because they say the same thing doesn't make it true. The similarities are very superficial.
@@thewitcherking937 don't get me wrong, it kinda liked it, but because I don't think it was as good as it could have been, shouldn't bother anyone, I'm not buying anything, just watched a free movie. And I read the reviews after I watched the first one, and agreed. We can think whatever we want, or have people forgotten that? I enjoyed it more than Top Gun sequel, and 'Fury'. Those were disappointing. There are some truly exceptional films out there. These aren't in that mix, unfortunately.
@@richsmith7200 fair enough
I also don't think it helps that the whole situation is contrived by a plot that doesn't ultimately make sense. Lex Luthor's whole plan is to manipulate Superman into this "impossible situation" where he has to kill Batman otherwise he'll kill Martha. Earlier in the movie, however, we saw Superman rescue Lois Lane in the Middle East. He was able to pinpoint her exact location from across the globe simply by using his hearing. Martha is being held captive (by similarly armed goons as the ones that captured Lois), but this time Superman acts helpless. "I have no choice but to accept this murder game!" Why???
There are so many basic, logical problems in the entire premise that by the time you get to a scene that's trying to accomplish something emotional, it's hard to take it seriously . The stakes leading up to it have been so ludicrous, illogical and forced.
U totally missed a lot of elements here.
Lex ONLY plan is to put superman in scenarios where people will Ultimately dislike him, his goal is to turn humanity against superman through the media. His plan was simple: where ever superman goes, people will die. I feel more like audiences are making his plan sound much more complicated than it is. Regardless of what batman or superman does, Lex has always backup plans so that he will always win regardless of their choices.
Also, superman always knows where Lois is because superman always stalks her. It's very clear in the films that he has pinpointed her location at all times, she is never alone. And the looks Lois and clark gives each other, we see that they both are aware of that. That's why her having secrets is such a hard thing for him.
Since he has always focus on Lois' location at all times, it makes total sense that he doesn't have the same with other people. How can he, he is not a gps machine. Snyder has said in an interview that WB refused a scene he shot where superman is trying to track martha, and the city is filled with people that is crying for help, and he has a hard time sorting them out. WB didn't like it because it was too dark for them.
Here’s the thing, it’s cool to point out that both Superman and Batman’s mother’s names are Martha. Problem was it was executed horribly. Why would Superman say that? (No pun intended) because why would Batman know or care about someone named Martha? Ben Affleck literally stops what he’s doing and looks around as if he’s being pranked before he says “what?” Synder says that he couldn’t figure out how to get Batman to recognize Superman’s humanity without it. That’s bad writing. Here’s something better “you’re letting him kill her!” “WHO?!” “My mother!” Batman backs up and drops the spear. He looks at Superman with uncertainty and instead of having flashes of his parents killer, he instead looks upon himself as a young boy. We zoom in on his eyes and then transition to Superman’s eyes in the present. I’m an amateur writer but that is simple enough to get the point across and change Batman’s motivation to kill Superman.
It wasn't executed horribly. Batman already mocked his alien parents. Saying mom wouldn't have done much for Bruce. And clark needs him to know who he is saving. Batman backs up because he is shocked and confused because supermans dying moments mirror his father's.
It's not the Martha names that was ridiculous.. it's how it was done that was cringe AF 😂. Cavill flat face saying "Save Martha" and batman throwing the "Why did you say that name" tantrum made it utterly ridiculous 😂.
His face wasnt flat.
You pathetic haters will say the most incorrect, insane bullshit.
@@RevJ7 and you pathetic meat riders will glorify terrible writing as if there's some reward for mediocrity. Stay on that lane and accept a truth..hope that helps.
@@RevJ7meh
Superman was literally about to get killed by batman what do you wanna say to him
Batman going on a tantrum is sooo in character thon. Batman is just a child in an adult body trying to use his childish pain to mean something.
They do the same thing in lego Batman, and everyone enjoyed thar version
A great scene that was turned into a meme and people hated on, just for the sake of hating.
Don’t be wilfully ignorant, you know it’s not “for the sake of hating”, saying that won’t suddenly make the scene a well-executed piece of cinema. It got hate because it tried to be a big emotional turn for Batman and fell flat on its face because of the embarrassing writing.
“I’m going to kill you.”
“Martha.”
“Oh shoot, didn’t know you were cool like that.”
Yep, amazing writing.
@@emoney6692 it emotional, because it wasn't the name. It was the scenario.
Batman was about to kill a kid that tries to protect his mother.
Ergo Bruce suddenly saw himself as a person like his parents killer, the one thing he hated the most.
"Martha" confused him, but him trying to kill basically a innocent child, that's what snapped him back, he had become the one thing he hated the most
@@milkinobama8160wrong. It's a funny meme, but not how the scenario actually is.
"Martha" judt confused him.
It's because he was about to kill a boy that's trying to save his mother. Ergo what turned him was him realizing he had become the same person as his parents killer, not that his parents share the same name
@@MarkFilipAnthony if I was about to kill someone and they randomly say the name of my deceased mother, my reaction wouldn’t be “wow, why did you say that name, bro?”
Superman went to him go talk and made it obviously that he wanted to talk, yet Batman ignored him. But him saying Martha is what made him listen?
He should've said, "My mom, you have to save my mom.You're letting him kill my mom. Then Batman (who is still standing tall after being thrown through walls and floors) could've paused to say, "Mom?? You don't have a mom!!! You're not human". Lois runs in to come between them saying, "Stop! Luthor has kidnapped his mom! Let him go!" Batman drops the spear with Alfred's monologue briefly playing in the background or maybe even a flash of Batman's mom. If Zack was trying to go for "the humanity angle", not mentioning Superman's Martha by name would've been the best option or to not even create a slo-mo expose of the gravestone saying Martha Wayne as an unnecessary buildup for a payoff later for Superman's Martha. It was laughably silly. On top of that Doomsday should never have been in any of the trailers/spots. Way to ruin what could've been a genuine surprise.
The ultimate cut makes the film more tolerable but the Martha situation still renders it a cringe-fest. He let the studio cut out a scene at the beginning where Superman intercepts a missile, that's a brilliant/cool moment that you would want in any Superman film. Scenes where Luthor was manipulating both of them with misinformation were also cut. Luthor setting Superman up by burning the villagers alive scene also cut. All of those scenes were key to establish some of the context. He wrote a decent story (barring the Martha infatuation) but didn't fight to keep key scenes whilst writing cringe worthy dialogue.
If Superman says save my mom I know what batman gonna say you wanna know what batman gonna say is gonna say ''whos your mother? I don't care" and besides which mother is superman referring to on the planet earth or his destroyed planet, Batman doesn't know his origin story how can he know?
And it's not silly it's actually a genius writing
@@sladejoseph6757Are you blind? I precisely added what Batman could possibly say then followed on until Lois showed up just as she did in that scene. All it needed was some tweaked dialogues. Just read the rest of what I already wrote. It's not hard to follow. Yes, I knew what "batman was gonna say" which I had ALREADY also written down. English is clearly not your first language which is fine but you could still try to comprehend what I said in the original post before replying publicly which added nothing to the discussion.
Batman literally roasted Supermans parents a couple of minutes before he was about to stab him. It's not the fact that superman has parents that makes batman want to stop killing him.
'I bet your parents taught you that you mean something, that you're here for a reason.'
He hats superman because he exists, not because he thinks he doesn't have parents.
It's the moment superman is willing to sacrifice his own life to SAVE his mom, that's when Batman turns back into Bruce. It's when Bruce realizes he has become the same type of guy as his parent's murderer, that's when he snaps back to reality