Blind spots! Cockpit Visibility in Vintage WW2 fighters
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- čas přidán 14. 07. 2024
- My condolences go to the family, friends and colleagues of those that lost their lives in this tragic accident. If you have footage of the crash, submit it to the National Transportation Safety Board at witness[at]ntsb[dot]gov
This will help the investigation into the accident. More information here: www.ntsb.gov/investigations/P...
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- Timecodes -
00:00 - Crash
00:08 - No speculation in this video
01:00 - Explaining forward visibility and visibility in turns
01:42 - Forward visibility
05:01 - Visibility when turning
06:41 - Visibility in formations
07:28 - Conclusion
#militaryaviationhistory #dallasairshow #b17
My condolences go to the family, friends and colleagues of those that lost their lives in this tragic accident. If you have footage or information on the crash, submit it to the National Transportation Safety Board at witness[at]ntsb[dot]gov | This will help the investigation into the accident. More information here: www.ntsb.gov/investigations/Pages/CEN23MA034.aspx
(Yes, I ate too many carrots at the end of the vid - getting used to a new camera and color correction is hard...)
This is a dark day
I found your video very respectful while at the same time elucidating the question of how_could_ it have happened. Especially what happens to visibility once the fighter's banking. I think people do prefer to have at least something that will help them come to terms with whatever the situation. I find your thoughts helpful. Sadly, no investigation ever will undo the accident, bring back the loved ones. My thoughts and prayers go out to them.
G'day Chris,
I concurr with your observations...
I would add one of my own though, specifically to note that the Aircraft appeared to be flying a wide Left-hand Circuit, with 3 Multi-engined 'Planes in line-astern (B-17, B-24 & B-25...) ; while something like 5 Single-engined Machines (2 Mustangs, a Harvard, the Kingcobra and a "Zero" lookalike...) seemed to be flying a necessarily faster "Racetrack" - but the Singles appeared to be "passing on the inside of the Turn..."(!), which is an absolute "no NO !", by convention in both Air Racing and Sailplane Thermalling circles (pun pun !).
To my way of thinking, the smaller faster Singles should have been circuiting on the OUTSIDE of the Bombers as they paraded around the Sky.
If the Kingcobra had been overtaking on the Outside of the Fortress' Turn then it's Pilot could have kept the Bomber in sight all the way past it....; but apparently the P-63 was flying "Right Wing" on the Mustangs -and he was wide, and late, into the Turn, perhaps.
Maybe the Preflight Mission-Planning by the Airshow Organisers choreographing the Mass Flypast could benefit from scrutiny, with hindsight, and then review and reform....
Just(ifiably ?) sayin',
Have a good one...
Stay safe.
;-p
Ciao !
I too appreciate your respectful treatment of this tragedy. I'd like to point out a few elements that might help you better describe and analyze forward visibility from a cockpit. Many tricycle gear airplanes sit and taxi slightly nose up on the ground as is clearly shown by the picture of the P-63 in your video. The forward visibility in flight will be slightly better.
The reason forward visibility is reduced in a turn is that an airplane will descend during a turn unless the pilot increases the pitch. The steeper the bank the more the pitch has to be increased. In this tragic case the P-63 is in a medium left bank and would have had considerable nose up pitch.
Air shows are carefully choreographed and it is obvious the P-63 had flown out of its assigned box. Why that happened and how it contributed to the crash is, as you rightfully recommend, best left to the pros at the NTSB.
You're not the first person who has said that due to the angle of the banked turn the P63 was making, the B17 was most likely not visible to the P63 pilot, due to the belly and wings preventing vision.
We'll find out what the NTSB eventually conclude.
As long as lessons are learned so that another mid-air collision like this cannot happen in future.
I have been annoyed by people suggesting the crash was deliberate, either a terrorist attack or murder/suicide, or that the pilot of the P63 had some kind of medical event such as a stroke or MI.
Those conclusions cannot be made from a few video clips and photographs.
That kind of speculation helps nobody.
Thanks for doing this video. The pilot of the Kingcobra was a friend of mine, and one of the B-17 crew taught one of my crew chiefs how to fly his L-5 Sentinel. The vintage aviation community is indeed a very tight-knit "family".
I knew him too. I was never super close but I valued his friendship a great deal. Him and I had spent some time together piecing together the history of the second P-63F.
Hello Will, my heartfelt condolences for your loss. Absolutely tragic. When I first heard about this I thought Texas Raiders was stationed at Fort Worth, but later read it was stationed in Houston.
My condolances to both the families and the 'family'.
Very sorry to hear of your loss, this was a terrible tragedy
Its is, we all are grieving. We have monthly meetings at IWH, possible special meeting.
I would like to comment that this sort of problem isn’t exclusive to old warbirds either; famously, the mid-air collision that destroyed the second XB-70 prototype was partially caused by the difficulty of the F-104’s pilot to see the XB-70 to maintain separation while they were flying in formation.
Obviously the XB-70 is newer than the B-17, and has electronics the B-17 didn't, but it isn't new either. Its first flight was 58 years ago and its last flight was 53 years ago.
@@JWQweqOPDH Still, there's many aircraft in service today which aren't anywhere near as sophisticated as the B-70 or the F-104. Many a Cessna or Beechcraft in regular service today can just as easily fall into the same trappings. A example that comes to mind is that mid-air collision that happened in Alaska three years back, that partially was also due to a blind spot.
Now sure, those aircraft weren't new either, but then again we still have Cessna 172's, at its core a 50's design, still rolling off the production line to this very day. And while they may have different engines and avionics, they still have similar window pillar and nose setups to those aircraft. Blind spots are something that impact every pilot, even modern passenger jets with TCAS have to be mindful of that.
I don't believe that visibility was a factor in that collision. The -104 was in sight of the -70 but got too close. Turbulence from the -70 rolled the -104 with the resultant lift changing from vertical to horizontal pulling the -104 into the -70's tail surfaces.
@@dhy5342 I concur that visibility was not an issue there. The F-104 just got out of position.
@@dhy5342 I agree, it wasn’t a lack of visibility of the XB-70, it rather the F-104’s pilot was having a difficult time judging his own position relative to the edge of the XB-70s wing, because of the XB-70s wing design, which caused him to get caught in its turbulence and crash into it.
Concise and respectful, just what I, and I'm sure many others, have needed to hear regarding this accident and the developing investigation.
Word of advice for folks when dealing with news and stuff surrounding this:
Steer well clear of Facebook comment sections and groups.
and one more reason I'm not one facebook.
Not just FB comments... many unenlightened views on a youtube vid with the NTSB gentleman's press conf. I suppose we learn a lot about the failings of human nature this way.
I haven’t been on FB in years. I prefer Discord so that I can dictate who I talk to and what I talk about.
@@dylandepetro4187 having one's surroundings have some say in the subjects spoken about, does educate to a more flexible mind.
@@daszieher true. And this is why I watch so many videos from the historical community here on CZcams, and so many documentaries on Prime that they decided to put them behind a paywall… I already pay for prime. Not gonna put more money in Amazon’s pockets just because they put educational stuff behind a paywall. Thus I become more reliant on the historical and educational communities here on CZcams for new information. However, I will not consider a video to be educational if they do not cite their sources.
Thanks for helping to manage this tragedy, Chris. We need support and patience now as we grieve and recover.
@@toxico1152 bruh. Not only did the aviation community lose some good pilots in that tragedy, but two wwii aircraft, that might I remind you HAVEN’T BEEN IN PRODUCTION FOR ALMOST 80 YEARS NOW AND ARE IRREPLACEABLE. So I suggest you adjust your tone accordingly, or delete your comment.
Kiss that ass!
While everyone who needs money from viewers says "patience and prayers" the organizers are getting paid.
@@10-AMPM-01 while your comment may (or may not) be true, its timing is awfully flawed.
How about you let those, who have lost dear ones recover, wait for an expert assessment of the accident and THEN raise issues you might have seen.
I was there with my family. See the whole horrible tragedy. My prayers go out to those families. I had met a few fellas the flew the B-17 may God take them into paradise. I send my love to all involved. Sad day for all of us AvGeeks! 😢❤🙏🏾
I'm thankful that no one on the ground was hurt in this tragedy.
@Ron yes sir, very much so.. that would have really added more Turds to this Crappy situation! 🙏🏾
If you have good video of accident, please submit to the link shown above. Thank you.
@Priceless, no unfortunately I don’t, for investigation purposes but also thank I don’t either. Haven’t been able to rid myself of the sight.😢
@@M_Bezzy Understood, it is very heart wrenching to do this even if you did have video. Thanks for reply.
Such a terrible tragedy both in historic aircraft and more importantly lives lost. Thank you for making this video and focusing only on known facts and education, while specifically avoiding speculation, which can be harmful when we know so little. Hopefully the NTSB investigation can shed some light on the true cause of this accident, and hopefully help to prevent future tragedies in the aviation community.
Nothing wrong with speculating. I don't know, maybe some people do something wrong with malicious speculation I guess?? But for ordinary, matter-of-fact speculation it's just fine. We can look into the reasons this happened and make our assessments as well as share them without it being a problem for anyone.
Unfortunately, a lot of people speculate well away from any evidence, and behave as if their imaginations are concrete reality. For instance, it appears that a number of people are claiming that this incident "has to be" a deliberate ramming attack, and the vitriol that they vent on anyone who tries to point out that there is no reason for it is very disheartening. Not to mention disrespectful of those who lost their lives in this tragedy.
@@pistonburner6448 Some speculation can be okay, but unfortunately, I have seen some pretty wild theories that don't seem to do anything but attack the pilot or aviation as a whole. It is good to know what went wrong, so that we know better how to prevent future accidents, but incorrect or what sometimes seems to be malicious speculation can be very harmful to maintaining a safe community. Even well meaning speculation can sometimes be harmful if wrong. We likely all have our theories as to potential causes of this incident, but I think it was good to hold any speculation that could end up being false or misleading, especially when the video could reach such a wide audience.
@@Ivan_WB Nothing wrong in non-malicious conversation, speculation etc.
Like how it's almost certainly careless direction of multiple aircraft into the same area without precautions or one of the pilots were where they shouldn't have been.
Another subject which is just fine to mention is that TCAS could easily be installed on all aircraft and would have very probably been an existing solution to avoid this incident.
And as per the Swiss Cheese model: pilot awareness was the last piece of the puzzle. There could be discussion about what other pilots do on that subject to avoid such situations, what the problem areas are, what technologies could be used (many aircraft have additional cameras installed).
they really should give each other a lotta room. just seeing those old birds is worth it they don't need to show how well they can handle them. sad loss.
i liked this simple and sensitive discussion. This discussion is true for almost every aircraft.
I flew as a passenger on Texas Raider and loved it. I am very sorry for the loss of the crews of both planes.
Class act. Thank you! May the families, friends and all those directly and indirectly touched by this tragic incident know the love and support that they need both now in the immediate and in the years to come.
Thanks for making this video. Important to explain this to a broarder audience since many people who speculate online never touched the subject before.
The tact and thoughtfulness of your approach to this raw, emotional event is the reason I am a proud subscriber to your channel.
Thank you for the compassionate and intelligent discussion regarding this tragic incident. Your channel is an invaluable service to everyone. Very well researched and presented. Definitely appreciate all the effort and knowledge you are clearly able to demonstrate through the channel content.
Really good commentary. Don't think a lot of us thought of that as much as we should have. Thanks
As said by others before myself you have delivered helpful information in a calm and logical presentation. Thank you for your time making these. Our thoughts to those affected by this tragedy.
Thanks for this sensible and concise analysis of an aspect that almost certainly played a part in this tragedy.
Praying for the families of those who lost their lives.
Thank you for talking about the visibility conditions! I was fortunate to get to meet Maj. Rowe at a CAP cadet flight academy program in IL. Now living near Dallas, it was hard to believe that this happened. Some of the other pilots I can remember seeing around at airshows growing up. Just a tough day for the aviation community, we lost a library of aviation knowledge and passion this past weekend. God help and keep all of their family and families!
Thank you for handling this in such a respectful manner.
Thank you for this compassion and understandable analysis of this tragedy.
Great perspective. Thank you for not playing that clip. Condolences for all those who have passed. Although I knew no one involved, the B-17 was part of the environment of my home. I live about 7 miles where the B-17 was kept. She Flew over my home regularly and her engines were a soothing and comforting background for my home. I would look up and see her each time she flew over, many times directly over my home. That is now gone. Let us pray that a resolution to this will result in actions so that this will not happen again. Lives are far to precious to be lost and these flying tributes to those who fought need to keep flying so we do not forget their sacrifices.
I live not too far from the airport as well. Always looked up or ran outside, even in bare feet on a cold morning to see Texas Raiders fly over. She was a beautiful bird. RIP to the crew.
They just came through my hometown two months ago. I saw them flying over and thought no way, never seen a B17 in person before. They were giving flights out of Doc's (B29) hanger. I drove over and got to see the plane up close and took a bunch of videos. Lucky enough to watch and listen to it take off. We lost six guys just like us, passionate fans of history and caretakers of these magnificent machines. Condolences to their families, such a terrible loss.
I've lost a handful of friends to aviation accidents and it's never easy. Lost my friend Lars Stratte in a midair between two Cal-Fire Grumman Trackers in a California wild fire. After the grieving you need to know why. R.I.P. to the pilots/crew and prayers to the families and friends.
What a fantastic explanation. He explains the facts concerning visibility on old fighter aircraft and avoids speculation about the possible cause of the mishap. He is considerate and respectful of everyone associated with the crash, and cautions us about speculations and assumptions.
Thank you for the calm rational analysis of this tragedy.
I drew the same conclusion. Terrible tragedy and condolences to all. I personally know people in the CAF. It’s heartbreaking.
Really good breakdown of what was essentially a tragic accident. Excellent work.
Thankyou for covering this tragic loss of life and vintage flying machines!
Thank you for this highly interesting, informative and sensitive video.
Thanks for being kind and professional. I'm from Houston and was just at the previous air show a few weeks prior and saw these exact same planes. It's heartbreaking to see so much finger pointing without knowing the facts
Long nose on P-63 in a turn hid the B-17. Period I've done a bit of airshow display and formation flying. You need absolute coordination, planning and contact. One fellow I worked with was a retired USAF lt.Colonel. He would approach from below and behind the aircraft he was forming on. He also had the aircraft in sight and communication was imperative.
He knew it was there but lost sight during the turn. Miss judged it and Bang. That's probably what happened.
Concise and respectful. It is sad that such a video must to be made, better that it never be made at all. Lives and priceless artifacts lost. 😢😢
I hope the NTSB will get to the bottom of this and some good may come from this. My condolences to those who have suffered such grievous loss.
Well done. Thank you Chris.
Thank you for your respectful treatment of this horrible incident. This will be an important factor in the investigation.
In a video from blancolirio not too long ago about an air race crash, he brought up that there is a rule in air racing that you are not to pass a slower aircraft on the inside. This for reasons that you have illuminated well in this video. The overtaking aircraft will only maintain visual with the slower aircraft while on the outside in a turn, and the aircraft being overtaken may not necessarily see the overtaking aircraft until it is too late and is itself turning in. Most air racing is done in retired warbirds.
I appreciate how your insight was delivered with solemness and dignity. You probably nailed the root of the cause of this incident based on what the footage shows.
Many modern crashes whether commercial or military are caused by visibility, I flew in a B17 at an airshow, crazy to see the two stories I read after are both tragic events.
I find it so surreal that I witnessed this event and I was going to meet and have dinner with the pilot of the P-63 later that day and here we are where Chris is making a video on this on the other side of the world
Great video and great insight
very well explained with empathy - thank you
Thanks for this video. Well explained and a responsible video. Have flown a little and know how important it is to do clearing turns while descending or climbing.
Its such an unbelievable tragedy , wrought worse by the fact that speculation and curiosity is so inherent to the aviation community.
hopefully everybody , and mostly the families can get the answers they're looking for soon enough.
Very respectfully and well done.
Oh, and thank you for your restraint.
Lost two class mates to blind spots in the cockpit, it's a very real problem.
This was an excellent video.
Well done, and very respectful. You sound like you might be a bit ill, if so, I hope you're feeling better.
Excellent analysis of this tragedy.
Good job Chris. Cheers from the Pacific West Coast of Canada.
I appreciate this report.
Love your take on this man, people on the social media talked shit instead of learning what really happens...
Absolutely right to give this tragic event the respect it deserves.
Outstanding video!
Amaz and accurate analysis of the events surrounding the event
Nice analysis. Looks spot on.
The kingcobra pilot knew there were other a/c in the near vincinity and the approximate positions due to the shows plannings. Even with good cockpit visibility it is the pilots responsiblity to be aware of the position of other aircraft in the traffic pattern. In my opinion loss of situational awareness of the Kingcobra pilot was the main contributing factor for this accident.
Thanks for this info. Knowing there is a huge B 17 visible in your forward vision from miles away ahead of you would require easily avoiding it and not aiming directly at it. It's not invisible or coming out of a cloud directly in front of you. That's what I don't understand; how could anyone not see this lumbering, huge aircraft flying in a steady course a mile away and somehow fly directly at it?
Thank you for this thorough explanation. Without drawing a conclusion, we can continue to believe that the errant course of the Kingcobra must have obscured the B-17 from the pilot's view long enough for this tragic accident to have occurred. We shall see. Condolences to the families and friends of the lost airmen.
I wouldn't even yet say the course was "errant". I ~believe~ he was in trail with the P-51. We'll only get a good picture when the investigation into Ops and traffic control are collated.
A very good and concise discussion of probable causes of this terribly sad incident. I flew on "Sentimental Journey", the CAF's other B-17G recently, and this has hit hard. I suspect when the final report comes out the visibility issues raised here and in other thoughtful videos will prove to be a major factor in the cause of this sad occurrence.
That said, there have been some utterly despicable and ignorant things put out on social media about this tragedy. Some people have no shame.
Absolute thank you, Chris. Imagining anyone at fault, if any, is in the "blue yonder ". Try a little kindness, everyone.
Hello again, Chris. You put very good limits on this video. Yours is the second mention of the visibility problems of that fighter in a bank. … It just plowed into the bomber with no change of course at the last second. ( The P-51 is even worse.: the widening of the leading edge of the wing as it meets the fuselage, creates more of a blind spot than that on the P-63. ). … don.
Let's be honest, the pilot is looking at the runway during the turn from base to final. The P-63 pilot wasn't even trying to look for traffic. The fact they were that close was a failure of the exhibition planning and coordination.
Very useful. I saw a lot of people on Twitter getting very confused and some even claiming it must have been deliberate, without realising that there would have been no way for either pilot to see the other.
Yes , but the problem is that you have to mitigate and predict such a situation. It’s not good enough just to say the aircraft has poor visibility , it’s someone’s job to work this out and then build that into a safety plan. My car has a blind spot and I’m aware of it and take precautions accordingly.
Good preliminary assessment
How very sad to see lives lost in any accident, and to see historic planes lost too. They can't be replaced. It is very sad indeed.
The question isn’t why he didn’t see the B-17. It’s how the aircraft came into proximity to begin with.
Such a sad accident. It really seems to hit home more when you've seen the aircraft in person. Texas Raiders was the only B-17 I'd ever had the pleasure of seeing fly (twice) and was close enough to touch just earlier this summer. A really sad tragedy
thank you
very imformative, it was a real tragedy, my condolences to the friends and families of the crews lost.
PS: are you sick? your voice seems a bit scratchy, take care of yourself, some warm tea might help.
This is the correct stance.
I expected no less from you.
Thank you.
a very respectful video
Thanks for the explanation and judging by your voice I hope you'll get better soon, bye thanks again.
Good video thanks.
Great explaining what a pilot has to work at.
This is a disaster! I walked all the way through that B17 in 1997 when I was a kid. It was an unforgettable experience. Now, it's a pile of twisted scrap.
Not only did people die, but we just lost 2 beautiful, priceless and irreplaceable pieces of history. I'm so sick of people maneuvering around in these dangerous situations. Air show are low altitude, low speed and close quarters flying. Airshows need to start restrictions on how many, how close and what kinds of planes can fly together. We CANNOT afford to have this happen again!
Well presented.
it is such a tragedy pray for all the families🙏❤
That makes me wonder how great the visibility is out of the cockpit of something like an Extra 300 or Pitts Special. In both cases they've got a one-piece canopy, but the cockpit is placed similarly low as on WWII-era fighter designs.
very well said
Extremely sad event. I am so grateful for the people who fly and maintain these warbirds and I want to keep seeing them fly. Hopefully a lot is learned from this event so they can continue to do so safely.
I a very classy take from a very classy channel. RIP to those that were lost.
It looks like the P-63 pilot was going too fast and was out of sync with the bomber. He tried to bank to get into sync with the Mustang in front of him and the banking angle obscured the B-17
This accident seems to have occurred from extremely poor planning, given the fact that they were going to fly in close proximity, with a known impediment of poor visibility and the limitations that were imposed by this on the whole sorry mess.
Awful News Chris thanks for discussing this much appreciated 😓
I hope you will be feeling in better health soon.
well explained. the initial situation ALWAYS changes as investigations unfold.
One thing which was clear right from the beginning is that the crew of the B-17 were not at fault. The P-63 approached the B-17 from behind and at a much greater speed.
Have a speedy recovery. :)
Wonderful people and wonderful planes lost in an accident. Going forward is going to be harder without them.
Great video - thanks. BTW - your voice sounds exactly like Werner Herzog.
It feels like there is always an air crash at every airshow and this raises the question why airshows are not banned.
Such a tragedy for all the people involved, and to a much lesser extent the irreplaceable aircraft. I'll be interested in what comes from the NTSB investigation. Especially what the airboss has to say about the incident. I just hope we're still able to see these types of displays going forward.
About 5 years ago I took a ride in the B-17 Flying Fortress nine o nine in Ct. it was such an amazing surreal experience to see and feel what those men went through sadly 2 years ago that plane crashed in Hartford Ct with a loss of life pilots and passengers the NTSB findings was pilot error and engine malfunction I was so devastated from both the loss of life and a vintage aircraft and now here we are again so sad I hope investigators can find the cause so we can hope to never loose more life and history, may you all rest in eternal peace 🙏🇺🇸
As soon as I've seen the first crappy footage my thought was, that the two of them did not know that the other one is there. The lack of "Oh shit..." manoeuvring proves this, for me. Rest in Peace to all, and condolences to their loved ones.
+1 for the corsair's wing design.
Watched many clips from WWII of B-17’s coming back from missions half shot up, missing most of the tail and rudder controls, missing part of a wing, 2 engines not working and yet the plane was still flying. Then we see this one 75 years later taken out in mid air. Such a tragedy for the families and the loss of one of a few of these planes left flying…
Hopefully, the P-63 pilot had something like a Gopro mounted in the cockpit. Perhaps then we can figure out what happened.
A few weeks ago I took a ride in a T-6 Texan at the Palm Springs Air Museum in California. While in the T-6 I was surprised at how limited the visibility is. The pilot has no visibility forward and downward so while taxiing he has to weave side to side to see where he is going. Then the landing approach has to be a slow turn rather than going straight in. The view sideways and downward was also quite limited due to the relative placements of the wings and cockpit. Its easy to see how the lack of visibility could lead to a loss of situational awareness.
Hello Chris- the earlier commentary on the visibility problem of the P-63, is by Animarchy History. The title is, “ B-17G and P-63 Collide a the the Wings Over Dallas Air Show- a Speculative/Cursory Analysis.” … don.
Thanks for the factual and clear video Chris, and also for actively trying to discourage others from speculation.
A very sad day. I was at Mildenhall in 1986 when the vintage pair came together, tragically with loss of both crew from the Meteor. I'll never forget the shock at how quickly both aircraft dropped out of the sky following a far less dramatic coming together than the recent one in Texas.
RIP to all those involved, and condolences to their families and loved ones.
Hey, Chris. Thank you for the clear video clearing up some of the misconceptions some people may have on the operation of these warbirds.
Your message for evidence to be submitted to the NTSB is obscured by CZcams's default video recommendations. I remember some people on CZcams mentioning you can disable this. It might be a good idea to choose this option so that the final message is unobstructed.
This is sad for the people and the aircraft that were lost