Kurt Vonnegut, Joseph Heller and others on Bureaucracy & War (1997)
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- Several authors who were also World War II veterans and faculty members discussed the bureaucratic role in war. They also reflected on their personal experiences during the war. Mr. Vonnegut delivered remarks focused primarily on his experiences in Dresden as a prisoner of war when it was bombed by the Allies which he wrote about in Slaughterhouse Five. Then there was discussion among the panelists and questions from the audience.
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“ It’s best if you don’t go all to pieces every time something bad happens. “
~Kurt Vonnegut
Think about the individuals mentioned here: the German general who refused to follow Hitler's order to burn Paris, the ambassador who said, 'Take Kyoto off the list.' The private at My Lai wasn't alone, it was the helicopter pilot who ordered his gunner to point his 30 cal at the soldiers who put a stop to it. Then there's the Soviet sub commander who refused to use a nuclear torpedo on the U.S. Navy that had boxed him in during the Cuban Missile Crisis.... During the last five years of the Vietnam War, there were the draft dodgers, and in Vietnam I've heard and read numerous accounts of units simply telling their officers, "we're not going to do that," others that called in false position reports. Everybody gets a chance at least once to tell the boss, "That's crap. Nobody's going to do that." (meaning I'm not doing that.) Never worry about getting fired for something worthwhile. You'll feel good about it for the rest of your days. There was not one single report of any German, SS, gestapo... guy who refused to murder civilians being punished in any way. If those SOBs aren't going to execute someone for saying no, that idiot where you work isn't going to kill you either.
The continual laughter is the gallows humor of the poor suckers who have to scrape up the accident victims, walk into the house to calm the drunk and belligerent couple and hope they aren't armed. Vonnegut was one of the guys who was sent to fight with only a few items to protect himself with: a helmet, a shovel, wool socks and a thin blanket against the winter and the Wehrmacht.
Stalin asking for Dresden to be erased has to be nonsense. The Red Army was more than capable of flattening anything they wanted. I think Vonnegut's reporting Dyson's bureaucrats saying, "What are we going to do today?" is exactly right. I remember when the Los Angeles School District was purchasing a 70 million dollar reading program to replace the 22 million dollar reading program that after 5 years hadn't worked.... It was obvious that it wasn't any different, and wouldn't work any better. (It didn't) I was repeatedly told, "Well, we have to do something." Children never think this way, only adults who willfully embrace idiocy can think this is reasonable.
Wars are usually stupid. Don't go. When they suggest one, instead make a demand, maybe....after you raise my pay, eliminate student debt. Or how about, you go first-- tell me how it's going. Imagine if every invasion has to first be led by politicians and their biggest contributors. Sure you're old, but we got the best weapons, get a good start, you'll be serving your country! After a week we'll let the privates and the veterans vote to see if the rest of the military should come in to help you.
That's why it's volunteer.
@@patrickfoley6215 Idiot !
Stalin insisted on Dresden at Yalta conference. Red Army had it been capable would have been used, he would argue on other things - the conversation at Yalta was about the dividing the new world.
You can lead an idiot to facts... but you can't make them think!
Eliminate student debt? I thought your education would make you smart enough to know that was a bad deal. Yes, it needs to be adjusted, but eliminate? You're an idiot.
Was gonna watch Netflix, but this guy is way more relatable than any other program out there
You should grab one of his books.
all*
He delivers heaviness of this subject matter perfectly. Humour will keep us sane.
Thank you for sharing this amazing video. Kurt Vonnegut really was ahead of his time. Such a highly regarded, yet still underrated, thinker in my opinion.
One of my most important teachers on life when growing up. Probably as much or more than Heinlein…. So much depth.
Thank you so much for these great writers conversations about their writing and wars. Kurt Vonnegut, one can grip their teeth within onself. Technology. Mmmmmm♥️
I watched this many years ago when it broadcast, just amazing. All amazing writers and profound recollections. I would serve in a coupel war zones and their stories rang even clearer. Gob bless them..... and many they crack us up
Vonnegut speaks the truth, in a manner long-gone, from this country’s cynical, diseased and indebted society
Interesting. I don't know if it relates to your idea, but I did at certain moments I captured myself from thinking (to my disgust) how bad a statement or a laugh would nowadays look ripped out of context and streamed as a 20 second clip on Twitter. Shall I add to your statement - a society of sickly and weak minded.
Kurt V will always hold a top tier place in my heart. An amazing man.
Best video on the internet. May these incredible people who inlightened use with their observations of the human condition, rest in peace!
Thanks so much for this ! Such a laugh , and very insightful . I'm grateful for every bit of Vonnegut I can get. I've yet to read Catch 22 , but that Heller is such a character.
Thank you for posting!
There's something so interesting to me about how all these writers endured the war and despite a familiarity with other soldiers they seem to genuinely hate war itself. Not in a "Hate the other side" or "life was rough" kind of way, but a genuine disdain for the practice of war that I don't see from many veterans today
I think it might be because since most men were sent to war during ww2 there were more intellectuals in the army, people who really think about the horror from both sides, question everything and are critical of the politics at play.
@@Rosiestoned It's almost entirely this. After WWI (think of all the poets--Wilfred Owen being my favorite, and scientists--Schwarzschild the most prominent) that died or barely made it out. It's largely a class issue now: even if you come from a proud military family, you're entrenched in a system that grants you officer status and gives you access to military schools that are incredibly selective but nepotistic, training you to be essentially a tactician with a specialized engineering degree, never to see combat.
Compare that to those who sign up now, after decades of idiocy and *relatively* small-scale casualties with major displacements and consequeneces. It's self-selecting. Do you need money? Is your town a dead end and you're poor as shit? Did you not have access to resources that could've changed your mind to realize being an electrician will give you everything you want without the bullshit? Join the Army. It's not that there aren't good-hearted and bright people joining, but the honor has been thoroughly wiped away.
Couple that with the thankfully increasing publication of investigative journalism into the atrocicities committed within the US Forces (no woman should *ever* consider joining right now: I know someone who works Federally to educate and enforce policies at a high level to decrease rape, and while she's an amazingly hard working person, it can't fix everything), and everyone with access to the internet who's of moderate means and doesn't need 4 years of labor to the State for free college knows enough to steer clear.
War movies might be fun, but war has largely stopped being cool.
After WWII the US military was privatized, before it was a peoples army. Arguably, why the US had been so unsuccessful with campaigns since.
@@jebediahkrimsoncraftleding3012 Dude are you seriously saying a 1920's dirt farmer was somehow better read and better spoken than the modern soldier?
@@bensmith8682 Feel free to re-read what I wrote if you have any other questions.
To answer your question: no, that is not what I was saying. Obviously.
This is just great. Hearing the great humanist and author Vonnegut talking about a conversation with one of the greatest scientists of the century Freeman Dyson about the Dresden bombings. These were real people living real lives having real conversations.
Nothing virtual about it.
And vastly entertaining,
Now I remembered a Swedish friend of mine was walking with someone in Central Park, and talking about what Vonnegut had written about it.
And right then, by coincidence, they see Vonnegut passing by!
So my friend goes off on a tirade about just that, and how he loved the writing, and Vonnegut listens patiently, and says:
What is your name?
Lars.
Well, thank you Lars!
9:48 - me, anytime I watch any Vonnegut lecture
Lol my gosh he is just that delightful isn't he?
These guys did such a good job of ignoring the stupid question and answering the intelligent one that should have been asked.
💯Well-said - Churchillesque. Some missed opportunities for meaningful questions before American intellectual giants.
The one about mistreatment of Scientologists in Germany was a great... The bloke must have had a glimmer of hope about Vonnegut taking them alien concepts seriously and had real hopes for getting picked up as a human for an extra-terrestrial zoo.
Best question is at 1:18:55... In a certain way you can't put these men down since Cold War happened. Now, guess why Russia is calling Baltics, and obviously Ukraine, nazi sympathisers, or even nazis? These countries never went into war, but generally speaking, they hadn't seen a vermin that disgusting as Stalin's Soviet Russian. And oh boy, back in that information age - before mobile phones, obviously Internet, or lets say newspapers flying around - I can understand them fighting against soviets, even on German side on Eastern front, and I sure as hell would have done the same if I was in that age and time.
the way jim nods at 2:55 is timeless
Burroway: "Mr. Vonnegut, I wondered if you'd respond to the label that was placed on you earlier of (Slaughterhouse-Five) being a work of post-modernism, and/or of you being a post-modernist; does that mean anything to you...?"
Vonnegut: "Well, it's taught (or 'talked', I'm not so sure) by academics; I don't hang-around with (them) that much."
The Allied planes while passing over small towns shot at townsfolk and tried to drop bombs on homes too in Germany. Howard Zinn also talks about how we became as bloody as the enemies.
We are truly lucky to had had Vonnegut. Nowadays the identity of some countries are being built on the membership in NATO, which encourages the militarism in the society. I think, that safety comes from the diplomatic skills to AVOID the war, not from the war poligons for which the forests are cut down.
"In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act".
*“LeMay said if we’d lost the war, we’d all have been prosecuted as war criminals. And I think he’s right. . ."* ~ Robert McNamara
"...we all went through the 'soldier thing' in time of war..."
KV says this in his opening, almost in passing...as it's not yet even the most interesting part of his story but would make up the entirety of mine....
Some people are just that great.
The impact of the novel was massive.For many of us.However,what really happened in WW2 took decades to be truly revealed,way after the publication of S5.
viet nam book … 13th Valley… surprised it wasn’t mentioned
This is an incredible tale, from an incredible man. It's great that almost 18,000 peopple have had a look at this speech. It really has some currently appropriate issues and warnings that any cunts who have some kind of ability to think may be concernerd about. I've just wanged up a vid of my cat siting on my intercooler. I put it up 3 hours ago, 457,634 views in 3 hours. Is there any hope for people?
Well, apparently things are looking good for cats! We're basically preparing them to inherit the Earth, when we humans destroy ourselves.
thats my physics teacher at 1:00:15 hahahaha
Aidan Burt seriously?!
Pablo Picasso's big FU to the machine (Guernica). Says i just speared your machine like a bullfighter. And just as quick because he had to come up with it off the top of his head - and it is still that statement frozen, just as strong, and you will never be able to beat it. This is the power art has. Do paint your Guernica - in words, on canvas, in a song, in your step and how you walk, do this thing deep, the big FU to the big bad machine and this action I talk about is as serious as the slaughter. To fight fire with fire or Ruach rather. Chutzpah!
I'm sorry but the American people never had to deal with a blitz on New York.....Liverpool, London, Coventry, London....just a small detail....but an important one
According to a russian ww2 historian Mark Solonin, the Dresden (far out of the flying range of the British and American bombers) was bombed because of the insistence of Stalin at the Yalta conference. Dresden was a large railroad hub, destroying it would paralyze the transport of the large surrounding area in the way of the invasion.
Yeah, this hasn't aged well
@@Hello.Sailor Why is that? Vonnegut relates his second hand information and the Russian historian says something else and who knows his source? He surely was not there. Besides that, the overwhelming force used just to blow up a train station seems a little excessive, doesn't it?
💜
24.39 too depressing to go on for now...
what makes Vietnam war unjust?
Depends on who you ask. If you ask the Americans, you will get one answer; ask the French, another answer; ask the Vietnamese, you will get an entirely different answer. So who are *you* asking? And unjust to whom, exactly? Humanity? The Vietnamese? The soldiers from various countries who participated? The POWs, MIAs, politicians, children, ???
Dresden was retaliation for The Battle Of Britan .
Sort of a Counter "Lessor" to the "Lesson" Gurnica .
If you are able, sup at the feet of the truth speakers. And weep.
That's my doctors dad that's funny
1:00:50
Had NO idea Vonnegut was a solider, let alone a prisoner of war!
Then you should read Slaughterhouse Five.
@@richardspectacular5327 Bought it two weeks ago! It's the next book after my current reading. Thanks!
Wonder what they'd have to say today about the wars in Afghanistan and Iraq. which cumulatively have lasted approximately 16 years and which we are still fighting ??!! To paraphrase Vonnegut "some entertainment" !
"and so it goes..." Cat's Cradle. My sophomore year high school English teacher introduced me to that book and I felt less alone in my despair and cynicism.
@F. Friedrich Kling Hauss Unfortunately true, and even after 20 years and a deadline of end of August 2021, America still cannot seem to get out cleanly.
The Allies firebombed Hamburg and other cities as well. They also firebombed millions of Japanese civilians.
Probably those cities had many poor. You know how much we love to educate the poor.
12:30 I believe absolutely nothing they say now! (Fo government OR media) Of course twenty five years ago I was where they were with it.
Dresden WAS a military target, it was a major railway hub. The idea that it was purely spite is foolish at best, and outright nazi propaganda at worst
yes. and the official victims are around 25.000 and not 130.000 like he states.
That is correct and it was also an industrial center where weapons of war were manufactered.
The wanted to be smart questions shaken Kurth. He realized people didn't get it.
The Armenian genocide not modern times ?
You had, one question and you ask about scientology
Not my dad
I'm surprised Kurt says there's no just war but enjoyed the adventure of war. I guess it makes sense in a way
Morale was high. They didn’t think they would live long anyway, might as well get some traveling in and good content for future projects.
nice! That one dude mentioning Guernica as the first reckless, ruthless slaughter of civilians in war is off the mark. Don't forget the Japanese in China, and if we wish to go waayy back, there are the mongols.
Go further back, in fact, I cannot think of a single major civilisation who didn't at one time or other recklessly endanger and/or slaughter civilians. How about Vikings, Alexander the Greek's troops, the Romans, the Egyptians, the Byzantine Empire, the Ottoman Empire and on in both directions, from ancient history to the present day. Civilians have only every been "off limits" in the Geneva Convention on paper.
The Japanese bombed Shanghai to rubble in 1932, 5 years before Guernica.
40:33 We dont share the same instinct Sir!
A friend to any army in the world? I love Kurt but strongly disagree here. My dudes are my countrymen; hands down.
Martin Roeder lives in a fictional world
I adulated Kurt Vonnegut along with the rest UNTIL I was on the CCNY campus as a student and a tutor in the Writing Center when he was a visiting professor in the English Dept. This was circa early 1970s. What a nasty stuck up son of a bitch. Rotten teacher, contemptuous of his students, too good to walk the face of the earth. Everyone couldn't wait to see the back of him. That's the way with creative genius though. Great at a distance, where he belongs. Some people just need to be in the wilderness and live alone.
Maybe don’t adulate people. Maybe don’t objectify them in your own petty concerns and you won’t find so much disappointment in them. He made no pretenses of enjoying academia and perhaps all the stuck up sons of bitches studying at CCNY simply took petty exception to having to endure the presence of the only one worth actually knowing.
Please do not explain humor to me. It always make me think, "What are people thinking?," when there is laughter on a sad or tragic or horrible event, and yes, even when the person speaking is telling an anecdote in a humorous way. What I do is listen, think and the then respond, instead of some knee-jerk reaction. I don't wanna hear how it's nervous laughter or any other such nonsense. It's just thoughtless and lazy. And yes, even when it's Kurt Vonnegut, who most know how he tells stories and yes, Kurt Vonnegut is fantastic.
Dresden: 200 war production factories, a major railroad crossroads for troop movements and cattle cars to concentration camps. Kurt conveniently left that out. After the first bombing of Hiroshima, Japan did not surrender. The second on Nagasaki did. Kurt forgot to mention this as well. Wonder why?
Some of those factories were American owned
I thought the same thing - numerous sources have claimed that the Japanese in charge at the time were not ready to surrender after the first bomb drop; and even after the second, a faction of the military was prepared to keep going were it not for the Emperor deciding otherwise. At least Mr. V does acknowledge that the lives of US soldiers were saved by dropping the bomb (even if he doubts the second one was necessary), and I would add that numerous Japanese lives were also saved. Truman had an incredibly difficult decision to make, regardless.
All respect to the man, but Mr. V's claim that Allied bombing did nothing to stop German war production is ludicrous. I suppose we are not to believe the Germans themselves or documentaries that acknowledge that their production (including their development of a nuclear weapon) was greatly hampered by repeated bombing, and certain operations like launching offensive rockets at England made nearly impossible when the Allies achieved air superiority.
I do NOT disagree with the basic thrust of what the speakers are getting at, but when they make obvious misstatements like this, we can only wonder why they did so, and it detracts from their overall message.
To be fair the city of Dresden didn’t do a study until 2004 where they estimated no more than 25,000 died.
@@jlastre 1944 census showed almost 600k Dresdeners. 1945 census shows less than 300k Dresdeners.
Where are the 300k missing ? Nobody tried to trace them.
Refugees not even counted.
Bubi Ruski Oh I don't know. Maybe cause there was a war going on. But anyway here is my work. From the wiki, "A further 1,858 bodies were discovered during the reconstruction of Dresden between the end of the war and 1966.[92] Since 1989, despite extensive excavation for new buildings, no war-related bodies have been found.[93] Seeking to establish a definitive casualty figure, in part to address propagandisation of the bombing by far-right groups, the Dresden city council in 2005 authorized an independent Historian's Commission (Historikerkommission) to conduct a new, thorough investigation, collecting and evaluating available sources. The results were published in 2010 and stated that between 22,700[3] and 25,000 people[4] were killed"
3. Shortnews staff (14 April 2010), Alliierte Bombenangriffe auf Dresden 1945: Zahl der Todesopfer korrigiert (in German), archived from the original on 21 February 2014
4.^ a b Müller, Rolf-Dieter; Schönherr, Nicole; Widera, Thomas, eds. (2010), Die Zerstörung Dresdens: 13. bis 15. Februar 1945. Gutachten und Ergebnisse der Dresdner Historikerkommission zur Ermittlung der Opferzahlen. (in German), V&R Unipress, pp. 48, ISBN 978-3899717730
Those are my sources. Where are yours?
Something off topic; tALLAHassee. Mmmmmmm. I wonder.
The truth ought to be beautiful not this ugly.
Whoever said truth had to be beautiful? That’s patently untrue.
Although it is still hotly debated, it is pretty much confirmed fact that the death toll of the Dresden bombings was vastly over exaugurated for a number of reasons. The real death toll is now known to be somewhere in the range of 25,000 no where near 135,000 and certainly not as many as Hiroshima (140,000). And I'm not trying to say that just because fewer civilians died than previously thought its okay, the actual point is was Dresden a valid military target, and if you review the evidence in many cases the answer is yes. I think the ethical point of this talk still stand but bare in mind this was nearly 30 years ago and modern research has developed more towards the idea of the Dresden bombings being militarily justified. Dresden is the one example that pops up time and time again when people need an easy case of Allied war crimes without wanting to do any actual research.
22:35 Trap
what a poor crowd!
IMO this person is lying. See Dave J, Markus Allen, or Miles Mathis.
Germans deserved for the highest justice. They turned into stones and ashes many towns, included the state of Poland: Warsaw, the city of kings. German's agression survived 1000 Poles in Warsaw(!!!) British air force pilots were mostly Poles and this is why they wanted the same faith about Dresden (Brits had new planes but no combat pilots - Polish aircraft was destroyed but still had plenty combat pilots).
Ama I get the feeling you didn't watch the video. Vonneguts point was the Germans had already virtually lost the war and the city and it's population (including American POWs) had no say in the ongoing war policies of Germany, the UK, US etc. He also makes the point that cities such as Dresden existed before the countries claiming their ownership, hell what we call Germany was called Prussia less than a half century before WWII.
It wasn't bureaucratic momentum. It was to help the Russians reach berlin. their casualties had been so high since then from having to take every city. bombing Dresden saved many lives of Russian Soldiers.
Yeah cause you were there, right
@@sewerworld6448 No, you just don't know history. Dresden had 110 factories churning our war materials supporting the Wehrmacht and Nazi war machine. It was also a massive transportation & logistics hub allowing rail transport of men, tanks, and other armor/materials to the Eastern Front (where the Russians were). The first thing out of Stalin's mouth to Roosevelt was, "Why hadn't the Allies bombed Dresden yet" - Russian troops were facing determined Nazis defending the route to "Berlin until it fell in early May. Maybe learn some basic history.