The Lydian Chromatic Concept Ep. 5: The Lydian Chromatic Scale
Vložit
- čas přidán 2. 07. 2024
- In the fifth episode of the Lydian Chromatic series on "Theory with Bob," @bobbyspellman discusses the last five tones in the order of tonal gravity and demonstrates the way these higher tonal orders can be used in improvisation with the help of pianist Julia Chen and bassist Julian Smith.
George Russell's Lydian Chromatic Concept of Tonal Organization: www.lydianchromaticconcept.co...
The Ridgewood School of Music is now accepting new students online or in Brooklyn/Queens/NYC! ridgewoodschoolofmusic.com
Find us on Patreon for bonus videos, exercises, and transcriptions at patreon.com/RidgewoodSchoolofMusic
Bob's IG: @bobspellman
FB: Facebook.com/bobbyspellmanmusic
Julia's IG: @juliachenpiano
Julian's IG: @juliansmithmusic
Ridgewood School of Music FB: ridgewoodschoolofmusic
It's fun to imagine George having composed an LCC version of something like the well tempered clavier.
I've been meaning to get a copy of the book and read it for about 25 years. Thanks for breaking it down and reaffirming that i need to get and explore the book....
4:15 I would recommend checking out Paul Hindemith's book "The Craft of Musical Composition" if you haven't. The first pages discuss construction of the chromatic scale from the overtone series and combination tones. I haven't properly compared it with george russell's lydian chromatic scale construction, but there seem to be similarities in their ideas.
Yes, similar, especially in the determination of the root of intervals and chords. Also in the way that the intervals nearer the root determine the underlying tonality. Hindemith probably went further in determining the overall dissonance level of a given vertical chord structure by grading the dissonance of every interval it contains. Where Russell is better is assigning more than one possible tonal centre for any chord in ascending order of tension. This opens up more possibilities for melodic independence from the chord tones and also allowing the graded stacking of harmonies or lines from more than one tonal centre
Thanks, I've read some of Hindemith's work, but I'll definitely spend some time diving deeper into this!
Been waiting for you sir
??? Why do we need to know this isn't everything written down on the charts.
@@lenzotrumpet of course. i was only remarking that having enjoyed his first four lessons.....
All of us have been watin, brother
Really good…and practical!!!
Beautiful playing. Thank you!
Great! I think that one explanation for #15 (C#) is that because C# it's a sharpened root and that's why it can't be the next note before F#. Also, C# is the "Lydian" note of G. So then scale is more G LC-scale than C LC-scale. And when it is in Aux blues scale (half-whole dim) it is Db not a C#.
I think this is a very good explanation. George Russell mixes sharps and flats in the order, but once we get past the #11, if we think of it as #5, #2, #6, #3, and #1, it makes total sense we would skip the C#/Db. I’ll do more on this in ep. 6.
@@RidgewoodSchoolofMusic I also think that it would perhaps be more logical to primarily flatten the notes, i.e. b6, b3, b7, b(#4) = 4, b2. If we flatten the note, we first get the Lydian Harmonic Major scale (according to Ian Ring) and after that the Aeloian Harmonic, which is the same as E Harmonic minor. After this Lydian Dominant and Major Scale and finally Lydian b2. So these are only of course 7-tone scales. And I can well understand why George Russell has chosen sharps (for some) of the scales. Scales chosen by Russell are somewhat closer to western (and also jazz) harmony than the first ones and last one.
Couldn't you apply the same logic to all the other extensions too? You could just say G# is a sharpened 5th and has the same problem. Or that G# is the Lydian note of D. What's actually different about the #15 that makes it break the order?
@@Ambidextroid If I understood your question correctly, what I was trying to say is that C# is a raised fundamental. And fundamental is tone which all other tones are originally (hence the Lydian scale) built through the fifth-fourth relationship. Db is different because it is flattened two. But these are just my thoughts. ;)
I think that the b2 retains functional purpose as it can serve as an important compositional option when applied to a final resolution to the tonic. While it is certainly too dissonant for wide use, it can add a nice bit of spice at the end of a tune.
Thank you for these videos bobs
😘
Bob: "remember this is not prescriptive" also dedicated an entire episode to explaining paradigm shifts.
Title: Lydian Chromatic "Concept" of Tonal "Organization"
Half the comments in each episode- this really just feels like its organizing the notes in a different way and doesnt necessarily tell me new things to do that people weren't already doing in jazz to some extent.
------------
Much like how new Physics models dont change how the heavenly bodies interact with each other, the LCCoTo doesn't change the music. Russell saw a BUNCH of empirical evidence (jazz) that was poorly explained by Western harmony and wanted to better explain how/why these sounds make sense. Its philosophy, its capital A Aesthetics, which unlike many other philosophies is held accountable for making sense of changes in the Art world.
Once organized into a coherent system you CAN make choices utilizing it, like how different ethical systems solve the trolley problem differently. You can make musical choices explicitly using the Ezzthetics of George Russell AND/OR simply explain whats going on.
Absolutely stunning series so far, Bob.
I think Jacob Collier have the real solution for #15 , is the authentic Lydian evolution colour ... My ear is completely agree with that
I always disagreed with the #1 or #15 being more outgoing than the #5, #9, #6, and 4. As long as the interval between the root and the #1, is greater than a minor9th, the dissonance isn’t as noticeable, especially when you put it above the #11, which stabilizes it. I use Dmaj7/Cmaj7 polychord voicings to access this level of brightness
Interesting! With the right voicing you can make anything work, but do you still hear the #1 being more ingoing than the #5 as a part of a scale or voiced lower in the chord? Put in other modes it would be, for example, a natural 7 (#5) vs a natural 3 (#1) on a minor chord, a #11 (#5) vs a natural 7 (#1) on a dominant 7th, etc.
I've been thinking about this quite a bit. To me, it's a question of shifting colors. I conceptualize the center point as the dorian scale, because both tetrachords are "neutral." If that's green, then we deviate up or down (sharps or flats), and that can be visualized as a color shift -- either a blue shift (flats) or a yellow shift (sharps). One sharp (yellow) becomes the mixolydian scale, then orange to major/ionian, then red to the lydian. Adding flats from dorin, you get minor/aeolian (aqua), phrydgian (blue), then the dreaded locrian (purple). But note that you also get to locrian along the yellow, so the next step up from lydian is the locrian modulated up a half tone. Keep adding sharps, you modulate upward, keep adding flats, you modulate downward.
But nobody likes locrian, so most music stops at lydian or phrygian.
If you start on the tonic, and conceptualize everything flatted except the tonic, then moving up fifths adds a new natural or sharp. Add the fifth for phrygian, then the 2nd for aeolian, then the 6th for dorian, then the 3rd for mixolydian, then the 7th for major/ionian, then the 4th for the lydian. Then the tonic to modulate up to the next locrian.
This makes more sense to me, and doesn't make the sharp 9 the floppy-eared runt of the litter.
That's a valid extension of the concept for sure. The Dorian scale is the same when inverted so its a natural resting point. And by reinterpreting the dorian in terms of up or downwards shifts by a 5th of the original LC tonic you get chord scales that you normally wouldn't consider using traditional methods.
The only drawback, (and this applies to Bob's exposition also) is a traditional bebop language setting where dissonance tends to get resoved quickly and where the root 1357 chord tones take precedence over subsiduary scale or non scale tones. This still gives the feel of a line too closely tethered to the original harmony as you can hear above. The object of the concept was to free the line from the chord.
This is why the concept was most effective when thinking intervallically and with the accompaniment strpped down to just 7ths in the bass and scale tone clusters in the upper register. Or else polychords or modal 4th voicings. Another outgrowth was Miles telling Herbie to leave out the 7th and 3rd altogether and play scale clusters mixed with 4ths.
That, and fewer chords, gave players the freedom to stack harmonies and interval sequences on top. With Dolphy and others It got back to a similar feel of gravitating lines around upper srtucture chord tones like 9, 11, and 13 the way Parker did, only by different means and with more emphasis on sustained dissonance. Check out Dolphy and Herbie on "Softly as in a Morning Sunrise", or any of the 1963/4 repetoire in Miles's second quintet.
I think the system refuted itself when you skipped a fifth (around the 3 minute mark). Since one needs to make compensating adjustments to avoid the -9 dissonance, that could be done in the first octave thereby allowing the use of the natural 11.
The other significant limitation is that there’s no mention of how to voicelead structures horizontally over root tones, and, if it did, it would still be in the “jail” of the circle of fifths.
Far out: A term of high approbation in the swing era was "out of this world," in the bop era it was "gone," and today it is "the greatest" or "the end." Similarly, a daring performance was "hot," then "cool," and now is "far out."
- Time, 8 Nov. 1954.
The Lydian Chromatic Concept of Tonal Organization was written by George Russell in 1953. Does the term originate from the far out "out going" improvisations based on this?
I don't know for sure, but I think the skipping of C# is due to the order of appearance of the notes of the overtone series?
The C#-Db issue on C Lydian could be the same F issue on C Ionian
Was that buzzing in every video?
8:00 You glossed over the fact that the Eb (Lydian Diminished) yields the harmonic MAJOR scale rather than the harmonic MINOR scale.
It actually does both, but I'll cover that in episode 6.
Thanks for this. If this can't be explained, forget about Popperian falsifiability, right? The point is that all here pertains to an old world of science - something more like contemplation (..not analytic systematics!). Thanks again. Peace.
Am I understanding the terms inbound and outbound correctly? I take it that inbound means that the pool of notes you're using is going to resolve back to the tonic they're based on...
You're drawing from a pool of notes that wants to resolve to a new place
All very interesting - but I still fail to see how this theory adds anything to the language of jazz, vis a vis it was played prior to his theory, using various chord substitutions, like tritone, etc.. The improvisation examples you gave are all within the scope of conventional substitutions. In other words, I see it more as a different perspective on musical organization - which adds very little to the way jazz is played in practice - except in the very important case of purely modal music a la Kind of Blue
Even setting aside the issue of the sharp 1 / flat 2, lydian augmented feels like a weird fit since you are discarding the first / strongest fifth in the order of tonal gravity. (nvm, I see that it is just one choice of many replacements)
I also can't think of a principled reason why you would prefer to swap the Eb for the E in Lydian Diminished rather tthan a D# for D. Both of these give you modes of the harmonic minor if you want to justify the choice that way. Similarly for other principal scales, it's not clear why to choose which enharmonic pair.
I'm trying to be open-minded but this feels more like george russell's musical hot take rather than anything with genuine explanatory power
Swapping Eb for E yields the harmonic MAJOR scale. Swapping D# for D yields the harmonic minor scale. My take on the choices for the principle scales is that each, save for the last (most outgoing), preserves the Lydian II chord (traditional V chord).
Gravity works; the planets, their moons, the suns and everything in the Milky Way in perfect harmony; but if you stick the moon too close to the Earth - it all turns to shit: Could that be a valid reason to skip the flat 2? :0)
I think the whole LCC is designed to "suspend " tonality, so as to allow more freedom of movement for improv and soloing, thus, its why it's called modal jazz, 🤔
You need chromatic piano for this
There are no wrong notes-only wrong melodies.