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Cost-Effective Antenna Solutions: Comparing Dipole vs Vertical - Which is the Best?
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- čas přidán 30. 07. 2022
- They both work differently. A dipole will generally produce excellent gain perpendicular to the dipole element and a vertical will display an all-around-gain. BUT it all depends on the frequency and the height above ground. Let's take off the covers and find out.
Here's the video I discussed on Dipoles vs Verticals: • Cost-Effective Antenna...
Callum, M0MCX.
More videos:
• Antenna Modelling Antenna Modelling
• Tips and Tricks Tips and Tricks
• Antennas Antennas
• Live Streams Live Streams
• Commander World My Stuff
• Foundation Training Ham Radio Training
I don't appear to have been paying sufficient attention. When did vertical dipoles stop being called dipoles?
First sentance says it all.
@@DXCommanderHQ I have the same problem with the 'fly' bridge on boats. When I was on boats it was still called a 'flying' bridge. And problems are now called 'issues', working its way from laughable corporate-speak into the common vernacular. The language ever changes and gets ever lazier. :)
Maybe theres no such thing as the best antenna ,but ,my friend , this is the best channel to find out about them. Bravo sir. Excellent videos. Very understandable , and no fluff. To the point and everything you say is truly relevant to the subject. Fan for life right here. Thank you for your work. 👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍
Wow, thanks!!
Hi Cal. Many thanks for the videos! Enjoyed the livestreams of your contesting - sadly couldn't hear you from my QTH in mid-Kent this time around. One day! Made my antenna from DX10 wire from you (a slightly modified G7FEK) - heard Brazil and the Dominican Republic but couldn't raise them on my 10Watts... Keep up the good work! Regards Jon M7COT (Cup Of Tea)
Roger Jon!
Great vid and would love to know lots more about using receive antennas. On another note, it would help people like me if you could do one for newbies wher you explain the graphs and why antennas show negative gain numbers, and more about why the extent of the graphs is usually zero db
Will do.. Hang on!
Loads of info Callum good stuff you are right if you can’t hear them it doesn’t matter if they can hear you now I’m on pins and needles till the next one cheers W9US
Good point!
Really nice video Cal, and indeed food for thought. I am all for modelling (do it in my day job for radiation shielding), but there is nothing quite like taking real measurements to explore differences. So I have a DX Commander (classic) in the garden with about 160m of radials. I also then have an EFHW at about 8m off the ground, this is about 12.4m in length and has a trap such that I can operate on 80m if I wish (not great efficiency but it works for local contacts). I have a CX210 antenna switch and out of curiosity I am forever switching between the two. On balance the DX wins for me, BUT there are clear occasions where the EFHW is much better (receive and transmit). I have a flex 6600 radio and have not yet split the two antenna into the radio (then I can do away with the switch and use software switching ). I think I am still learning at this stage and find the switch better. Videos on a receive antenna would be most welcome too ! Mark, 2E0MSR.
RX video soon mate!
Great video Cal. I love experimenting with different antennas and usually use some type/variation of a wire dipole. I've been running a Hygain DX-77 vertical for about 6 months now and absolutely love running the vertical. I have noticed some issues in a predominantly horizontally polarized arena but it's honestly few and far between. So many options to choose from, you have to go with what works for you with your location and operating habits. I believe there is no wrong antenna, just the wrong application.
73,
Chris, KS5KY
Yes, I think you said that well! "I believe there is no wrong antenna, just the wrong application"
I'm going to become a master of antennas if I keep watching your videos )) Another great lesson. I need to install that software for sure to play around a little and understand even more. Thanks again. 73
You can do it!
I think getting a better receive is more important than transmitting, ive worked the world on TX with a mobile antenna so working the propagation is easier when mother nature gives us a helping hand, however because of the recieving constraints of a smaller mobile antenna its more difficult and restricted to hear stations further away who can hear me but i can't hear them, one thing many people tend to forget is the position of any antenna and the environment which can work against us that can make a big difference.
My comment is aimed more to a mobile set up than homebase.
Looking forward to your receiving antenna video when you upload.stay blessed.
OK. Copied!
“A tad odd” ROFLOL!
Normal is Boring! It’s ok to color outside the lines!!!
Great Vid Callum!!! Keep them coming!
Outside the lines! HAHA OK :)
Video on receive antennas would be great! My FTDX3000 has a dedicated RX antenna so would love to fully utilise it
Copied.
Great video Callum
Fantastic timing I am currently half way through making a linked 20/40m dipole. However I have ran out of garden only managed to make the 20m section as my garden is 8x8m there abouts. Going to have to build the rest in my mother's garden. So next option is to build a 20/40m vertical with a coil/trap in the middle. So it will fit in the garden. Will only be a temp/popup/pop down antenna for playing at home. My main drive is portable so need something smaller for home. Great timing with the video.. Great stream today. Motters M7TRS 73 👍🏻
Yes OK.. Or try linear loading for 40m. I did a video about that for 80m.. czcams.com/video/zWFU-VWOSJI/video.html
Options is good way to put it, and everything is a compromise. Have to decide on the task at hand and create the tool (antenna) which best fits. Then, after a year or so, change your mind or re-purpose for some other task. Wash, rinse, repeat... It's fun to experiment and change your toys around as you go. Unless you're rich, you can have everything you want, just not all at once ;)
Wash, rinse, repeat.. - how true!
Hi Callum! I've been watching and learning a lot about antennas from you for several months now. I'm not a "ham" yet; I have an old 23-channel Cobra AM/USB/LSB radio that I'm trying to get up and running as a base and mobile. Since it's an old radio, I don't want to spend a lot of money on buying antennas. So I have constructed a vertical center-fed dipole antenna from a couple of fiberglass telescopic fishing poles and solid-core copper wire run inside the poles. I chose this design for the omnidirectional pattern.
To build it, I have it laying on a pair of sawhorses about 2 ft off the ground. It's mounted on a 26-ft fence top-rail with its center feed at 24 ft,and using PVC pipe to stand it off from the mast about 2 ft. When I finished tuning it in the horizontal position, the SWR was below 1.5. HOWEVER... when I stand the mast up, the SWRs go through the roof! When I lay it back down, the SWRs go back to "normal". What's causing this? I'm thinking it's because the antenna is close to the ground. But how can I tune it when it's 25 feet in the air without taking the mast up and down each time? I don't want the expense of an antenna tuner, either.
Can you enlighten me?
Right.. So antennas close to gound are a different length to those higher up.. I've not made a specific video about this although it's littered around a few of mine.. But try and find a way of getting it vertical and up a bit and then tune it..
@@DXCommanderHQ Thanks, Cal! 73s!
@@DXCommanderHQ When you say "Different length", are they "shorter" or "longer" close to the ground? In other words, will I need to shorten or "lengthen" the elements when it's vertical?
@@DXCommanderHQ Hi Callum! I wanted to get back to you about this and my results. Iput the antenna up in the air about 11 feet, and tested my SWRs. Was still getting high readings, until I saw your video this morning on "How long should my dipole be"? My calculations were correct EXCEPT I didn't include the velocity factor, which reduced the length by about 5.5 inches. I clipped that off the upper radiator, put it back in the air, and the SWRs are consistently about 1.3:1 across the CB band! I couldn't be happier! Well, except I'm not getting any modulation. One step at a time! Thanks for the tip!
I always say… any antenna is better than no antenna; it can always be improved 👍
Great video! I've been a fan of dipoles for a long time but this definitely makes me think more about a vertical even though I will need to deal with ground radials.
Go for it!
Absolutely aligns with my own subjective observations, although I am in East Anglia and too close to my friend in Germany for the vertical on 40m. I hear him very well on the vertical, very good signal to noise ratio (despite being weaker), the vertical having the advantage of having no part of it near the house. For longer haul stuff the vertical works very well.
Interesting!
Reminds me of my work on the antenna range at JPL in the 70's.
Wow
@@DXCommanderHQ yes a “ wow “ job.
Generally, below 10 Mhz, 40m, 80m, etc., a higher angle of radiation is often desirable, due to the normal usable distances of those bands. Above 10 Mhz, 20m, 15m, 10m, etc., a lower angle of radiation is desirable for longer distances normally used on those bands. For example, it would be rare to get very long distances on 160m (except over water maybe), but on 20m or 10m, the other side of the earth isn't uncommon. I did have a neighbor with a full length aluminum dipole for 40m, a half wave off the ground. That looked pretty crazy, but his tower was a crank up tower, so he could shorten it when he wasn't using it. Out in the country, I saw an 80m wire dipole that was about a half wave up, across the tops of tall evergreen trees. I have no idea how they got it up there. I have inverted V antennas for most HF bands, not very high from the ground and I have a multi-band, ground mounted vertical. The inverted V's work out, because they are low for 40m and 80m, but at the same height, are high for 20m and 10m. Ground mounted verticals can work well with a good counterpoise (radial wires, etc.) on the ground. 1/4 wave on lower bands and 5/8 wave on higher bands seem good, but I haven't had much luck with end fed half waves on the ground, as they don't respond as well to a good radial system.
First line of your comment. I totally agree. 99% of the time. Then after dark when some weird island comes on and you need to squeeze another 5dB out the wigglies... Well, join the dots :)
Great video I’ve been thinking about my next antenna build, I have a dipole but will definitely get one of the DX commanders now. Yes please for a receive antenna video, I’m still keen on that square on the ground with the binocular toroid.
RX antenna. Soon!
YES, PLEASE receive antennas!
Receive antennas... Got it.
@@DXCommanderHQ we were doing a QRP event recently and after my buddy 1200 miles from me. After the event he and I tested his performance with an 80m loop, a vertical and a fan dipole on 20 and 40m. Each displayed very different qualities on send and receive. His goal as the Fox in the Fox Hunt event is to get as many Hounds around the country as possible, everyone on 5w. A varriety of take off angles is important for Hounds at varrious distances to hear him. Also selecting the best receive antenna for all situations is important for the 1.5 hr activity. This week's event was 20m and the dipole performed best over all and the vert hit me well but he could not hear on it due to noise levels. It was a fun test. Even though he transmitted will all ants he made very few contacts under 500 mile due to 20m. He is looking for the best combination of send and receive antennas to maximize his performance as the Fox.
It depends on what you can fit in the space you have available. Many of us have very small gardens/yards, so options are limited.
And that Ron, you can go down to 2m long radials on 20m band pretty well without losing much - and a small receive loop.
As always an informative ramble through the antenna forest! Yes please to a few videos on receive antennas, certainly one aimed at the SDR Dongle type Rx. As I think you know I am starting a channel aimed at the retired, or anyone tight on cash! I am planning on a few SWL videos, which will be in the can as soon as I work out the editing software!! Thanks and 73 Jim M7BXT
RX Antennas in the book!
Hi Callum, my antennas seem to match your figures. My 40 metre horizontal dipole is less than 6 metres above the ground, but it works OK locally here in VK, but on DX my DX Commander is almost 2 s-points stronger. Ray VK3CEO.
Ah! Good man!
The best antenna is what ever you can get on the air with. Any antenna is better than no antenna.
Counterpoints: 1) Antennas with no lightning protection, 2) Alligator antennas.
Cal, if one had a 130 foot EFHW with a 49:1 unun at the base to connect to the unit, would adding a coil somewhere in the middle allow that antenna to be shortened? (my intuition is yes) If so, how much inductance would one need and what length and positions would the new antenna dimensions take? For that matter, is it possible to model such a question? I'm a relatively new HAM getting into cw sota activations and am dreading unfurling 130 feet of line. Ideally I'd the resulting coil-loaded EFHW to resonate on both 80m and 40m. Your thoughts and recommendations are appreciated.
Yes you can do this. I never have - but you can (watch the harmonics because it wouldn't resonate where you next want it to be on the next band)
I have an older Yaesu ft 920, which has a receive antenna jack on the back panel. I've never used a receive antenna and would love a tutorial on their use. All the best.
Right. Coming up!
On Texas Traffic Net some Net Controllers use a receive antenna. One has a 40m loop on the ground.
Gran trabajo, Callum!
Gracias
Leo, LU3MKH
73
Meh. I’ve had both. If you have the height (about 10 meters, but even a little less isn’t so bad) and you can put up a couple of fan dipoles covering 20-6m at right angles to each other and then switch between the two - that’s actually a pretty nice set up - superior to a vertical - especially at higher frequencies as the sunspots tick up. Dipoles are also better if you work primarily along one transmit/receive path. They’re less noisy because they null off the ends, very useful. Verticals are noisy, omnidirectional (not a great thing) and the low takeoff angle isn’t a guarantee the ionosphere will cooperate with you. They’re easer to put up, but the radial systems are an underemphasized complexity in their installation. Verticals are more practical for 30, 40, 80, and 160m. Callum is over emphasizing the 5 deg TO angle. It may help you get a 10,000 mile QSO-but if the antenna is too noisy and omnidirectional you may not hear the guy at the other end. A 30 degree TO angle, with a gain 2-3 dB better than a vertical, will go plenty far.
Yes a pair at 90 degrees would be very cool.
Thanks for this information. I would love to hear your thoughts on a receive only antenna..
Will do soon - I have 2 RX antennas and need to make a video about my thoughts..
Do a video on receive options!
Coming soon..
Currently I have a vertical ,efhw and cobweb up and the cobweb out performs the others 95% of the time
Great!
@@DXCommanderHQ must admit though my classic is GREAT on 40m and 80m and better on the long dx stuff so more than happy with it !!! Love it on 40:)
300 miles on 80m is perfect for Ecomm situations. NVIS great.
Yeah, love it actually...!
hello please make a video about how to tune(trim) a HF antenna without analyzer or VNA ???.
Ty this. It might help.. czcams.com/video/BYF3FWV3nG0/video.html
Callum, I think you should make a lightweight Hexbeam system (like the Buddihex) to add to the DX Commander lineup. "Hex Commander" ?? There is a demand and Buddipole can't keep up.
Interesting.
Im sorry if is a silly question: but when put a vertical or a dipole at tower.. how do I measure the angle of the antena?
if is 30º or 45º ? How do I know that ?
It doesn't matter really.. Try it and see :)
Brilliant. Thank you
Thanks for watching!
What kinda antenna would work inside the house For the cb radio band???
Mike.. It's a HUGE question.. Watch out for my reply - I promise to make a video about this..
Callum, I have about 2.5 -3 meters elevated terrain eith a low stone wall about 25 meters from my antenna point (mast with EFHW). Condidering a 12 meter DXC. Would elevating the DXC base a couple of meters and running a vertical wite down to my 10 radials on the ground be beneficial?
Idea is - to get more of the length - especially on 10/15 meters - in view of the horizon.
A low stone wall will have zero effect.. Suggest doing a standard install, then enjoy it :)
It's too bad MMANA only calculates free space around the antenna, and can't take location into account. This can make a huge impact on antenna performance when dealing with DX (low angle radiation) on 40 meters when you live in a neighborhood, for example, which can easily be in the Fresnel zone. Ah, it is a fleeting thought since low hanging 40 meter dipole is the go to comparison for contrast. Personally, I am not in any particular antenna camp, but like the know the positive's and negatives of each type, and appreciate the work you do here Calum.
"Huge impact"? I don't think so. And on 40m - most buildings don't really get much in the way. I don't know of a program where you can literally draw all the buildings and steel sheets / roofs, electrical wiring etc.. Frankly, in my "real world" tests I notice nothing gets in the way and I have a TON of steel sided buildings and very large trees within a wavelength.
@@DXCommanderHQ Ah, but one day... With Google knowing all as it does, we will have maps and mass. It won't be long before Google goes beyond the outsides of our buildings. Already auto vacs are mapping the insides of peoples homes and sending that up to the cloud to be shared. We may be a few decades out, who knows, but it is just a matter of time before MMANA or programs similar to it, will estimate based upon the things around the antenna. Yeah, I agree, huge was a little hyperbole on my part :)
And what are you doing on HF? Contesting? Nets? Ecomm?
I have heard that before 2m FM repeaters became common, people would use 80m for ground wave propagation.
That all enters into the antenna debate.
Regards your second line. In the "old" days, 160m was better for local. You get a good 10-15 miles.
Hi Cal .. thinking to buy a DX commander antenna .... But with my current antenna (sirio 827) I am having s3 static almost on all bands except 40m . I do believe that this s3 is a man made noise .... If I buy your antenna I might be having the same issues. Or not ? What do you reckon? Jimmy
Well SOME folks have LESS noise on a grouond mounted vertical.. ALternatively, run with a Loop On Ground. See my demo.. You know, dedicated receive antenna... Does wonders for local baloney static blah blah.. See here for a demo: czcams.com/video/z5MhYu2LUrY/video.htmlsi=_i_6okNolgi6niuP (wind forwards 7 minutes..)
A vertically deployed dipole should have a feed point high enough so as to obviate radials. 73. WW5MB
Vertical dipoles and ground mounted verticals (monopoles) are slightly different beasts, agreed.
What is the best height for a dipole for DX on 11 meter?
Probably around 60 feet for absolute BEST.. But from 1 wavelength and up is pretty good. Check yesterday's video on radiation patterns.
@@DXCommanderHQ Thanks for the reply!
Observation from someone who really cant put up a tower.... A vertical at 10m height will cost thousands to erect and build, while a dipole at that height can be just strung in a tree for the cost of the dipole which is usually under $200. From that view point, seems like an unequal comparison. Not sure folks put up towers for just a dipole.
I'm not fluent in the software, but it did look like the vertical was at 10m height?
OK, wait.. my model was a ground-mounted vertical. Not even an inch above the ground.. AGreed, dipoles and ground verticals are easy!
@@DXCommanderHQ Ahhhh, that makes sense. Thanks!
Lovely video, Cal! I have a case study for you, I tried to model 20mband dipole on the ground and according to the models at 5 degrees off the horizon it had -3 - -2 db gain! Was it a bug in calculations or a real thing?
There is a known bug that wires under q/wave above ground can cause some weird sh*t. I just tried it too!
Which is easier? Getting one end of a single vertical piece of wire 10m up a tree, or getting two 10m pieces of wire 20m up in the air with a feedline, between two trees, parallel with the ground? Let's take a poll.
Well, practicalities also necessary! Good point.
Have miles of chain link fence in Houston. Could you put a vertical on a CB type mirror mount, attach to the top fence rail, get a good found from mount to it?
But you will only effectively have 2 x radials. It'll work, but not as well as lots of shorter ones. Good idea though.
@@DXCommanderHQ I can add more radials. Just wondering if the concept would work.
If I could get ground wire to the chain link part of the fence....!
Do have an alligator setup for coax and 3/8 x 24. Another can test concept.
Awesome content as always. I had a quick question about the dx commander 12 signature antenna, I realize it's rated legal limit but I'm running about 500 watts on AM on the 75m band.. would that have any effect on that antenna? I'd hate to ruin such a Awesome antenna
You will be fine on 500W AM.
@@DXCommanderHQ thanks for the clarification. Are you still awaiting the plates for the antennas? Your website says so, just curious if you are still waiting or forgot to update it :)
Interesting vid Cal. I'm wondering what if any is the performance difference with a doublet and a half wave dipole ? I have a 135 foot doublet, so more than 2 wavelengths long for 20M. Would this perform better than a half dipole for 20M ?
Erm.. You can't "make" more RF.. So if you gain in one direction, you absolutely must lose it in another. In your case, after doing a very quick nasty model at 10m height, you would have a 4-leaf clover with BEST gain at 5 degrees off horizon at around -3dB. In some 4 other places (NSE & W) terribly gain.
@@DXCommanderHQ thanks...I like that explanation "you can't make more RF". So all I'm doing is changing the shape of my transmitted RF. Makes sense now....all the best 👍
For a vertical with radials, can the radials be buried just under the surface of the ground? I'm worried about running them over with the law mower.. Even with some sort of stakes, I still worry about ripping it out of the ground.
Yes, you can bury the radials but you will need more of them to reduce the ground losses. This is the reason a vertical antenna above ground only uses 3 or 4 radials, no ground loss. Ground mounted, you need as many as possible for best performance. Those who put up a vertical without radials just warm the earthworms up with their RF.
Hi mate - yes absolutely. I cut a slit about an inch deep for each one. Completely disappear and lawn mower never knows. Actually, on a lawn they disappear if pegged down after a couple of weeks anyway. Callum sells the pegs (biodegradable)
I layed mine down and used "radial pins" and 2-weeks later, I couldn't bloomin find them! Seriously, they literally vanished. And this was in the autumn with no grass growing. Dogs were playing on the grass the next day. czcams.com/video/scDXKNJs7i4/video.html
@@DXCommanderHQ I've heard this from fellow hams who run verticals too Callum. They disappear after a short time and you can mow right over them. I enjoyed the video, great explanation of a vertical vs dipole.
Bury is fine. That said, with the hot weather at the moment, mine are starting to appear again, like a lost village that becomes visible when a reservoir runs dry !
I live in an apartment. Could you build me a dipole?? ")
Depends on which bands.. SOme bands just too big. Look at a Halo antenna for 20m
@@DXCommanderHQ oh I am just starting out so 11 meter.
mud patties anyone?
Well done for me.
ma
ke a comment...?
lasa-i si pe altii frate...
English?
Mister Ariel,you are a verry smart gay!!!! only wath i dont lik on your antennes beqaus she always out wire made
thx KC3YFD