Aegon II: - is the eldest son of Viserys - Has the conqueror's name - Also his sword - is supported by a rule and custom that has been in place for literally THOUSANDS of years. Rhaenyra: - DADDY SAID THE THRONE IS MINE !
It's called male progeniture where inheritance is given to the first male son in a line. Lacking that it then passes to the nearest male relative. Although there is no written law on this in Westeros, a precedent was created when Rhaenys was passed over in favor of Viserys as heir when the great council at Harrenhall was convened in 101 AC. So yeah I agree Aegon has more rights.
@@thailorconley6933 That's not what I'm doing. But because he has no understanding of medieval systems, he doesn't get the fact that a heir is the one succeeding the ruler, not someone else. There's very few exceptions
The king wish is not above the law, I follow Stannis about this : -It has always been so. I am not . . . I am not a cruel man, Ser Davos. You know me. Have known me long. This is not my decree. It has always been so, since Aegon's day and before. Daemon Blackfyre, the brothers Toyne, the Vulture King, Grand Maester Hareth . . . traitors have always paid with their lives . . . even Rhaenyra Targaryen. She was daughter to one king and mother to two more, yet she died a traitor's death for trying to usurp her brother's crown. It is law. Law, Davos. Not cruelty."
The Westerosi monarch is bound by the law, or feudal contract, and his word is not law. Westeros is a feudal monarchy, not an absolute monarchy. Lords are bound to give fealty only if their liege honours their part of the allegiance. So, a liege, or in this case the king, cannot command a feudal vassal to kill themselves, murder innocents, or other such things that are not faithful to the feudal contract. Therefore, the king's word is not law because the king cannot command anything illegal. Law thus arises as an uncodified series of agreements between vassal and liege, i.e. the Great Council of 101. In real life, John Locke applied this to absolute monarchies as well. He coined natural rights, or negative laws, which could not be overriden by 'positive laws' such as trying to change the succession by fiat or legalizing murder or attainder. The current ICC and US Supreme Court both uphold this natural law, which in many cases is sovereign over law decreed by kings. Therefore, a feudal king like Viserys cannot illegally change the law without the consent of their vassals
Very impressive all the mysoginy I'm seeing in these comments. The show did a great job of demonstrating that both Rhaena and Rhaenira were both better rulers than Viserys, Aemon, Aegon or Daemon. . Yet all the drones here repeating: yeah, the crown should go to the stupid, drunk kid who not only is unprepared, but doesn't want the crown anyway.
The kings's word is law. If Viserys named Rhaenyra as his heir, doesn't matter what the great council said before or what traditions they have in Westeros, Rhaenyra is the rightful Queen because she is the named heir by her father
That's entirely false. Westeros is a feudal monarchy, not an absolute monarchy. Lords are bound to give fealty only their liege honours their part of the allegiance. So, a liege, or in this case the king, cannot command a feudal vassal to kill themselves, murder innocents, or other such things that are not faithful to the feudal contract. Therefore, the king's word is not law because the king cannot command anything illegal. Law thus arises as an uncodified series of agreements between vassal and liege, i.e. the Great Council of 101. In real life, John Locke applied this to absolute monarchies as well. He coined natural rights, or negative laws, which could not be overriden by 'positive laws' such as trying to change the succession by fiat or legalizing murder or attainder. The current ICC and US Supreme Court both uphold this natural law, which in many cases is sovereign over law decreed by kings. Therefore, the king or government cannot illegally change the law just by their own will.
Remember, folk, a king is not a king because of a crown, but because of the houses that supports him. So traditions are above the king. The throne belongs to Aegon.
@@Wallace43266but Viserys did not ask his vassals to do anything "unlawful". His father named him heir over Rhaena, but he named Rhaenira - and his vassals supported this by pledging alliegence to her. Viserys supported her claim to the end, despite what Alicent said. To support Aegon is to forfeit that pledge.
@@claudiaroedel1368 Viserys was named heir by the Great Council choosing him over Rhaenys, not by Jaehaerys. Under Andal Law, Rhaenys was the true heir, but the Great Council developed a new precedent or common law, that the royal succession law is based on male primogeniture. Viserys forcing his vassals to support Rhaenyra over both Daemon and Aegon without a Great Council broke this law, and his vassals had a right to say their oaths to Rhaenyra were illegal and void
Team Green. A King's word is not the be all, end all. And it is naive to simply rely on your own word, as King, to carry your will through even after death. Viserys named Rhaenyra heir but did not change the laws of the Realm to ALLOW her to ascend and rule uncontested, nor did he ever prepare her to rule because he himself does not know how to rule efficiently. He did not even prepare the people around her to be open to women ruling. He just thinks his word is enough. For thousands of years before Valyria even existed, it is always the firstborn son who takes precedence in the line of succession (I did not make the rules). Even the Targaryens, when they were Lords of Dragonstone only, observed male primogeniture, that is why Aegon was Lord of Dragonstone and not Visenya, and why their father wed them together to unite their claims. There are more examples: Jaehaerys ascended the throne over Aerea, Rhaenys was passed over for Viserys. Viserys' own succession was possible BECAUSE he was a man. If Viserys wanted Rhaenyra as Queen, he must introduce a new law, codified and ratified by all the Lords the Realm, that this is the new law of succession FOR House Targaryen ONLY. King Jaehaerys solved the Targaryen incest marriage issue by introducing a new law, the Doctrine of Exceptionalism, and getting the Faith to partner with him, to enforce this throughout the Realm. Viserys should've done what Jaehaerys did here, but he was too politically inept and sentimental. And oh yes, let's not forget the real reason Rhaenyra was named heir in the first place. Daemon said it best in S2E1, that she wasn't chosen for her wisdom or virtue. She was merely a placeholder to prevent Daemon from the throne, and it was Viserys' guilt over Aemma which kept her as heir. He never thought she was instrumental for Aegon's Dream, because if he did, he would've paid attention to her from the BEGINNING. So naming her heir is for personal reasons, and not for the good of the Realm, while Aegon's ascension would ensure long-term stability because his councillors would rule for him and they have been doing so since the time of Jaehaerys' reign.
There was a document in the middle ages called the 'Donation of Constantine.' It was a forgery, but supposedly a Roman imperial decree that gave the Popes rulership over western europe in place of the Roman emperor. Dante, who lived in the time before the Donation was proved a forgery, argued that even if Emperor Constantine had made the document, since the emperor could not command anything illegal, such as the total legal alienation of the empire or something contrary to the nature of the empire (establishing order in place of anarchy) the document was null and void. This in modern law is known as ultra vires, or 'beyond the powers.' Since Westeros is a feudal monarchy, with succession regulated by contract between monarch and vassal, Viserys naming Rhaenyra as his heir is 'ultra vires.' He simply does not have the power to do it, the decree is void as it is an illegal law. The entire kingdom cannot be alienated like property.
Except that in Westeros, there is no written law, no constitution, no Magna Carta. Viserys calling his vassals to pledge allegiance to Rhaenira is him both "changing the law and preparing them to be ruled by a queen". And inadequate as it was, bringing Rhaenira to the Council meetings a his Cup Bearer was his way of preparing her to rule. Being in the room where it happens allows her to learn how the small council works. Aegon never had this chance, and to prove how much he missed it, he started to bring his son to the Council room at a young age
As GRRM said: "The short answer is that the laws of inheritance in the Seven Kingdoms are modelled on those in real medieval history... which is to say, they were vague, uncodified, subject to varying interpretations, and often contradictory." 1. A king or lord has the authority to choose his heir and summon his vassals to swear fealty to his will and ensure the succession. 2. Tradition is used for pure political convenience. Jaehaerys I broke tradition by naming Baelon as heir in 92, passing over the only daughter of his eldest son Aemon. And that's without taking into account the future Great Council of 233. Therefore, Rhaenyra is the legitimate heir to the Iron Throne and as Aegon II himself says: “What sort of brother steals his sister’s birthright?"
Even though I know the throne belongs to Aegon he is a very bad ruler and Rhaenyra would be a better fit and was king Viserys first heir to the iron throne but I think the throne could pass to Aemond who is a better ruler but if I could vote I would vote for Rhaenyra
Things have been cahnged after dance of the dragon you forgat about that broooo😂😂😂😂😂😂 Thats why this war has happend. Thats why Viserys never changed his mined. Because after all he knew change was coming 😂😂 broo Viserys never spoke with Agon about Agon the 1th dream. Line of succession Come from this dream. Every Targeryan king knew about the legend. So Rhaenyra has been rightful ruler. Not Agon 😂😂😂😂
What team are you in?
Aegon II:
- is the eldest son of Viserys
- Has the conqueror's name
- Also his sword
- is supported by a rule and custom that has been in place for literally THOUSANDS of years.
Rhaenyra:
- DADDY SAID THE THRONE IS MINE !
Don't forget her intended heir is also a literal bastard who doesn't even have the signature silver hair
It's called male progeniture where inheritance is given to the first male son in a line. Lacking that it then passes to the nearest male relative. Although there is no written law on this in Westeros, a precedent was created when Rhaenys was passed over in favor of Viserys as heir when the great council at Harrenhall was convened in 101 AC. So yeah I agree Aegon has more rights.
But Viserys made her the heir, and didn't change his mind. You are an American ain't ya?
@@InAeternumRomaMater Westeros is not America. You can’t judge a medieval, European monarchal inspired system by modern day American standards.
@@thailorconley6933 That's not what I'm doing. But because he has no understanding of medieval systems, he doesn't get the fact that a heir is the one succeeding the ruler, not someone else. There's very few exceptions
The king wish is not above the law, I follow Stannis about this :
-It has always been so. I am not . . . I am not a cruel man, Ser Davos. You know me. Have known me long. This is not my decree. It has always been so, since Aegon's day and before. Daemon Blackfyre, the brothers Toyne, the Vulture King, Grand Maester Hareth . . . traitors have always paid with their lives . . . even Rhaenyra Targaryen. She was daughter to one king and mother to two more, yet she died a traitor's death for trying to usurp her brother's crown. It is law. Law, Davos. Not cruelty."
The Westerosi monarch is bound by the law, or feudal contract, and his word is not law. Westeros is a feudal monarchy, not an absolute monarchy. Lords are bound to give fealty only if their liege honours their part of the allegiance. So, a liege, or in this case the king, cannot command a feudal vassal to kill themselves, murder innocents, or other such things that are not faithful to the feudal contract. Therefore, the king's word is not law because the king cannot command anything illegal. Law thus arises as an uncodified series of agreements between vassal and liege, i.e. the Great Council of 101.
In real life, John Locke applied this to absolute monarchies as well. He coined natural rights, or negative laws, which could not be overriden by 'positive laws' such as trying to change the succession by fiat or legalizing murder or attainder. The current ICC and US Supreme Court both uphold this natural law, which in many cases is sovereign over law decreed by kings. Therefore, a feudal king like Viserys cannot illegally change the law without the consent of their vassals
Very impressive all the mysoginy I'm seeing in these comments.
The show did a great job of demonstrating that both Rhaena and Rhaenira were both better rulers than Viserys, Aemon, Aegon or Daemon.
.
Yet all the drones here repeating: yeah, the crown should go to the stupid, drunk kid who not only is unprepared, but doesn't want the crown anyway.
The kings's word is law. If Viserys named Rhaenyra as his heir, doesn't matter what the great council said before or what traditions they have in Westeros, Rhaenyra is the rightful Queen because she is the named heir by her father
That's entirely false. Westeros is a feudal monarchy, not an absolute monarchy. Lords are bound to give fealty only their liege honours their part of the allegiance. So, a liege, or in this case the king, cannot command a feudal vassal to kill themselves, murder innocents, or other such things that are not faithful to the feudal contract. Therefore, the king's word is not law because the king cannot command anything illegal. Law thus arises as an uncodified series of agreements between vassal and liege, i.e. the Great Council of 101.
In real life, John Locke applied this to absolute monarchies as well. He coined natural rights, or negative laws, which could not be overriden by 'positive laws' such as trying to change the succession by fiat or legalizing murder or attainder. The current ICC and US Supreme Court both uphold this natural law, which in many cases is sovereign over law decreed by kings. Therefore, the king or government cannot illegally change the law just by their own will.
Remember, folk, a king is not a king because of a crown, but because of the houses that supports him. So traditions are above the king. The throne belongs to Aegon.
@@Wallace43266but Viserys did not ask his vassals to do anything "unlawful". His father named him heir over Rhaena, but he named Rhaenira - and his vassals supported this by pledging alliegence to her.
Viserys supported her claim to the end, despite what Alicent said.
To support Aegon is to forfeit that pledge.
@@claudiaroedel1368 Viserys was named heir by the Great Council choosing him over Rhaenys, not by Jaehaerys. Under Andal Law, Rhaenys was the true heir, but the Great Council developed a new precedent or common law, that the royal succession law is based on male primogeniture. Viserys forcing his vassals to support Rhaenyra over both Daemon and Aegon without a Great Council broke this law, and his vassals had a right to say their oaths to Rhaenyra were illegal and void
@@Wallace43266 again, as GRRM said, there is no written law - only costume.
He broke with costume and precedent - but not the law.
Team Green. A King's word is not the be all, end all. And it is naive to simply rely on your own word, as King, to carry your will through even after death. Viserys named Rhaenyra heir but did not change the laws of the Realm to ALLOW her to ascend and rule uncontested, nor did he ever prepare her to rule because he himself does not know how to rule efficiently. He did not even prepare the people around her to be open to women ruling. He just thinks his word is enough. For thousands of years before Valyria even existed, it is always the firstborn son who takes precedence in the line of succession (I did not make the rules). Even the Targaryens, when they were Lords of Dragonstone only, observed male primogeniture, that is why Aegon was Lord of Dragonstone and not Visenya, and why their father wed them together to unite their claims. There are more examples: Jaehaerys ascended the throne over Aerea, Rhaenys was passed over for Viserys. Viserys' own succession was possible BECAUSE he was a man.
If Viserys wanted Rhaenyra as Queen, he must introduce a new law, codified and ratified by all the Lords the Realm, that this is the new law of succession FOR House Targaryen ONLY. King Jaehaerys solved the Targaryen incest marriage issue by introducing a new law, the Doctrine of Exceptionalism, and getting the Faith to partner with him, to enforce this throughout the Realm. Viserys should've done what Jaehaerys did here, but he was too politically inept and sentimental.
And oh yes, let's not forget the real reason Rhaenyra was named heir in the first place. Daemon said it best in S2E1, that she wasn't chosen for her wisdom or virtue. She was merely a placeholder to prevent Daemon from the throne, and it was Viserys' guilt over Aemma which kept her as heir. He never thought she was instrumental for Aegon's Dream, because if he did, he would've paid attention to her from the BEGINNING. So naming her heir is for personal reasons, and not for the good of the Realm, while Aegon's ascension would ensure long-term stability because his councillors would rule for him and they have been doing so since the time of Jaehaerys' reign.
There was a document in the middle ages called the 'Donation of Constantine.' It was a forgery, but supposedly a Roman imperial decree that gave the Popes rulership over western europe in place of the Roman emperor.
Dante, who lived in the time before the Donation was proved a forgery, argued that even if Emperor Constantine had made the document, since the emperor could not command anything illegal, such as the total legal alienation of the empire or something contrary to the nature of the empire (establishing order in place of anarchy) the document was null and void. This in modern law is known as ultra vires, or 'beyond the powers.'
Since Westeros is a feudal monarchy, with succession regulated by contract between monarch and vassal, Viserys naming Rhaenyra as his heir is 'ultra vires.' He simply does not have the power to do it, the decree is void as it is an illegal law. The entire kingdom cannot be alienated like property.
Except that in Westeros, there is no written law, no constitution, no Magna Carta.
Viserys calling his vassals to pledge allegiance to Rhaenira is him both "changing the law and preparing them to be ruled by a queen".
And inadequate as it was, bringing Rhaenira to the Council meetings a his Cup Bearer was his way of preparing her to rule. Being in the room where it happens allows her to learn how the small council works.
Aegon never had this chance, and to prove how much he missed it, he started to bring his son to the Council room at a young age
All hail king Aegon second of his name, king of the andals, rhoynar and first men, lord of the seven kingdoms and protector of the realm.
As GRRM said: "The short answer is that the laws of inheritance in the Seven Kingdoms are modelled on those in real medieval history... which is to say, they were vague, uncodified, subject to varying interpretations, and often contradictory."
1. A king or lord has the authority to choose his heir and summon his vassals to swear fealty to his will and ensure the succession.
2. Tradition is used for pure political convenience. Jaehaerys I broke tradition by naming Baelon as heir in 92, passing over the only daughter of his eldest son Aemon. And that's without taking into account the future Great Council of 233. Therefore, Rhaenyra is the legitimate heir to the Iron Throne and as Aegon II himself says: “What sort of brother steals his sister’s birthright?"
The kings word is final. He wanted rhaenyra to be queen, then she married his brother. But really Daemon has the largest claim. Team black.
Lol learn the law
Daemon? How?
@@dhruvagarwal8848 Line of succession. He is the king's younger brother.
@@RayBarK1 Yes, but he doesn't have the largest claim. The son of the ruler always had more rights, not his brother
@@cegshorts "king... consort"
lol
Even though I know the throne belongs to Aegon he is a very bad ruler and Rhaenyra would be a better fit and was king Viserys first heir to the iron throne but I think the throne could pass to Aemond who is a better ruler but if I could vote I would vote for Rhaenyra
Although the king is the king, the tradition costumes are above him. The throne belongs to Aegon, then Aemond.
Things have been cahnged after dance of the dragon you forgat about that broooo😂😂😂😂😂😂
Thats why this war has happend. Thats why Viserys never changed his mined. Because after all he knew change was coming 😂😂 broo
Viserys never spoke with Agon about Agon the 1th dream. Line of succession Come from this dream. Every Targeryan king knew about the legend. So Rhaenyra has been rightful ruler. Not Agon 😂😂😂😂
Bro not even rhaenyra own children that got to be kings recognize her as Queen lmao.