i just skimmed a paper saying that if you paint 2 graphite strips different widths they will have different seebeck coefficients and can therefore become a thermocouple generator. They used an HB and 6B pencil to draw two lines. Title of the paper: "Single material thermocouples from graphite traces: Fabricating extremely simple and low cost thermal sensors" on another note, i wonder if the graphite-painted foils in battery cells can be used as thermocouple junctions. I will give it a try, as i have a lot of junk cells
Excellent ideas. Let us know how they work out? I've been wondering if a block of thermo-couples in the focus of a parabolic trough/disk would generate useful power; fabrication might be tricky (not the trough/disk, I've got that nailed).
The answer is yes, the foils will work as long as the they are of differing resistance/reactance from one another and can easily pass current. If you have those available to you, then please do so and let us know your results and thoughts on it. I am currently coming to the opinion that what is going on with this effect is in a way rectification of light(just my opinion mind you). Heat is in my mind infrared light electromagnetic waves. A normal rectifier basically just clips the wave such that it doesn't cancel itself out. That in essence is what we are doing here with heat. To think of it as rectification makes it much easier for me to wrap my head around these concepts. Thank you very much for your comment and inspiration!
Stating up front I have no info on if this would work but it'd be easy to try... I'd be interested is if drying different sections of the paint while under DC current (or magnetism ) made things line up differently and improved/diminished output results of 2 graphite traces used as a thermocouple. The obvious ones of say positive (or North ) towards the junction compared to one away but also, it it makes a difference, then to try drying one along axis the other perpendicular of the later electron flow. My thinking here to make them more different to each other and see the effect.
That is the Wild thing ! The Simplicity of this kind of thoughts is what leads US to sustainability for the upcoming years. The more we know, the more peacefull we will Be. Thank you again Sir.
Here is a bit of an experiment for enthusiasts currently playing around with TEG/graphite applications. Take a very fine graphite powder and impregnate it into an insulated material. Run a high voltage through the graphite on the insulator. This will cause channels to form in the graphite that are of the lowest resistance through the surface. Afterward, connect to the non-burned in graphite and the burned channel. The contact points on the now different impedance materials will make a micro-thermocouple(well many of them actually). I have made high voltage speakers in this way with graphite powder and two thin plastic sheets. The graphite powder is in-between the two sheets that are in a frame and causes them to make a vacuum between the sheets. Not particularly difficult to do, just be cautious working with the high voltage. Be smarter than what you are working with. Thanks again Rob!
I love your videos. Daily, I look forward to them so much; they are not just 'wild possible theories,' but rather, you materialize your theories and create practical, usable devices that anyone could replicate. You seem so humble and have so much knowledge. Thank you for your hard work and good service. I do my best to like all your video's, have already subscribed to both of your channels. Warm regards from The Netherlands.
Totally Agree 💯 with you!! (I used tive in Einkhuizen, Netherlands!! Until I was 7/8yrs of age,,, ~the fact that I shamefully speak very little Dutch,,,, ,~is because Everyone there spoke Perfectly Great English, from Primary School age and onwards!! Good to meet another Netherlands Here!!❤ (I'm half Welsh Roma Gyosy on Dad's side but Mother's from Einkhuizen!!❤!) Andrea and Critters....XxX....
How very nice to recieve your message! Thank you, that is very nice to read. Ah yes that's typical usually they do speak English here yes, I can imagine.@@AndreaDingbatt
How about using copper pcb or aluminium pcb material and silk screening or using a plotter for printing the graphite paint part. Then take this panel and put the hot joints in the sun and the and the cold joints in the shade. Maybe even using a non conductive black paint coating for the hot joints and the new white cold paint for the cold side. This way you could create a non silicon based solar panel. I think this is worth a shot.
talking of copper, on his spark bang buzz webpage, Nyle Steiner detailed that "copper" junctions can generate 0.3V if 1st oxidised in a propane torch, touched together then one wire heated up more than the other. PCB fab methods akin to your suggestion might offer an easy way of manufacturing 2 complementary pcbs which could be arranged to touch each other at a high density
Hi Rob, great video. Thank you! I'm happy to have about 3 liters of your "genius" Ink in stock, it's the best paint so far I used. Yes, I agree, it's a pain to make conductive ink. My home made ink has 5 Ohm/squared. I like to recommend everyone to watch the old "Rob" videos about conductive ink.
@@andrewsmithmilan1780 I live in a place where the daytime temperatures can reach 40 degrees+ during the summer. I don't know how much heat a full underpannel of heatsinks with fans could shed, but I'd imagine it would be pretty substantial.
30 years ago someone gave me a 2“ x 2“ thermal electric generator with ceramic plates on each side. I put a boiling pot of water on one side, and the other surface was submerged in the solution of ice and calcium chloride. I believe I had 5 V at one amp coming out of that TEG
Like it. Your conductive paint isn't available? NOooo! It was way superior (IMHO). 1-Ohm/sq@25mic (40x Electro-Smeg?) Wow. I remember you doing painted electro/heat with sulphur and metal tape on metal substrates (roofing), how does this differ? Does 'soldering/brazing' the joint of m-m thermocouples have any good/bad effects. I'm wondering about continuous spot-welding flat strips in order to boost the current aspect, but wondering if a soldered/brazed joint(s) would be ok instead. Could you get another paint manufacturer to make your paint, under license of course? Selling it with links/leaflets/projects of things you can do with it. Surely schools/colleges science depts would be a good client base. What was the biggest PITA about making your paint? Thanks for sharing so much.
Great stuff there Rob. Thermo electric generating paint on an Aussie roof, even in winter and bang power. Of course, I have already covered my roof with panels, but I like where this is going mate.
I've often thought of this too. Our Aussie summers can be right royal stinkers. If you have a north facing roof, even better for solar, PV or hot water. Cooling any panels you have will usually increase their efficiency but I've often wondered about extracting energy from their heat too.
I was trying to use distilled vinegar to copper electroplate the conductive PLA, but it creates copper acetate in the mix and dissolves the PLA. What you end up with is a dust of copper(II) oxide-covered carbon particles. Copper(II) oxide has a high thermoelectric effect.
i didnt even start the video and I gave it a like I trust your titles to videos. Too many CZcamsrs sold out the titles... Thanks! you are one of my fav youtube treasures!!!
Fantastic Idea to Paint TEGs on the outside of the aand batteries!! Would you be interested in writing your findings here please,if you get time enough?! TIA. Namasté 🙏.
My question would be on how to scale up the junction. Would a 4 inch by 1 inch segment work? it would seem to me that the lead collector might need to be all of the same part of the junction material to help with that lead collapse issue you sometimes get when joined, as these can form new partially made junctions just like what you are doing, but work function flipped, fighting your output. I am thinking of a half ladder shape of aluminum or other foil, with an insulating plastic running the collection rail, and then paint on the conductive paint, and you have a half sheet of junctions with some working area, but I don't know if you can make the junction area that large. I am also thinking that using a stencil, and a rubber rolling wheel, you could rub a graphite powder, and the pressure would make some graphite sheeting thru most of the area, then spread on a higher temp epoxy as a fixing agent to protect it, and it might be more effective than an ink.
I bet this can be leveraged to increase the efficiency of sand batteries, if I'm understanding this correctly. I have a question though, technically speaking, would covering the exterior of your home in this help to protect it from an EMP? I'm in America and it sure feels like its time to begin the doomsday prepping in haste. Lol
@@bearnaff9387 In what fashion? Not asking out of conflict but ignorance. I would think it could only be an enhancement without detriment to a sand battery. Where does the harm come from?
@@LawrenceMarksOfficial I was more referring to your comment about your home from an EMP. I definitely understand the desire to build something multifunctional, but the functions of a faraday cage (RF isolation without any way for energy to penetrate) and a thermoelectric generator (current generation via the exchange of thermal energy through a "hole" more or less) are opposed. I think they're opposed enough that making a device that worked as one of these would impede the function of the other so badly that it would never "pay for itself" in terms of the materials and effort expended to make it. As for using a TEG with a sand battery, I guess it depends on what you want the sand battery for and what you want the electricity for. Every TEG "pile" added to the battery will generate more power, but will also be a point where heat will radiate out more quickly than the rest of the surface. This can be exploited, and is not necessarily a negative thing. As for power, you will be extracting very small amounts of electricity for a very large thermal gradient. If you need work performed, you might want to see about heating a boiler and using a steam engine. If you are just trying to power an indicator LED or run a fan to better circulate stored heat, you're on the right track technologically.
@@bearnaff9387 Yea looking into it after your reply, it did seem that it could potentially block an "environmental EMP" but ... yea thats not the point. lol
So, in the graphite/aluminum combo, it looks like you hooked up the positive to graphite and negative to aluminum. I ask because I think I'd like to try this on a concrete wall next to a wood stove (well call it that for simplicity). If I place stripes of graphite (say 1cm wide and 2cm apart), then interleave aluminum on top, that should make up the right combination so long as I hook up the graphite to the positive and have AL as the last conductor for the negative. Did I interpret that right?
Just moved into a new home, and while doing some packing I came across my FWG graphene ink; the standard ... and water proof. I'd like if you did a vid about making that whey powder & graphite - graphene... waterproof.
I've been stuck on this idea since you pencil lead thermopile idea. I live in texas and summers here are brutal. The temperature difference between an attic and the living space can be nearly 70 degrees on some days. I'd like to see how much energy I'd make with that kind of differential.
I guess you could get a rough estimate : measure cubic meters of air in the attic. Measure the temperature of air in the atic in the morning. Get a rough estimate of outside "max" temperature of the day. Ask the question : how much heat do I need to to heat up X cubic meters of air by Y degrees. Voila. As an example, for a 40m^3 atic, and a daily temperature difference of 40C, you can obtain 414.15Wh energy every day. Does not matter if you use a steam engine or a peltier device.
I see you read all the comments!! I thought about responding to that comment about using it for thermoelectric saying something about the low efficiency, but having not done any tests myself I thought better of it.(you have better equipment)
@@AndreaDingbatt , Maybe, I was using tubing in the lining, much like the original astronaut underwear, I would need to find better thermal transfer, a chainmail of copper tubing would be a nightmare, graphite fiber works good but once through the washer/dryer you got a conductive faraday cage of lint on ya! Great if you are constantly threatened with stun guns(the conductive lint film shorts them out and you don't feel a thing) but it's itchier then fiberglass or even itching powder, likely worse then asbestos for your lungs.. I've seen a fabric of fine stainless thread and regular cotton that's actually soft but it's like $1000 a yard. Anyway ... I thought it was cool at the time (a freshman geek in college) Built-in to a fishingman's vest, plenty of pockets to hide pumps, Peltier modules, wires , heat exchangers.. one of the 5 12v alarm battery jell cells. It was only effective on hot days if I put dry ice on the hot sides of the the Thermal junctions... Imagine a big guy wearing all black with white smoke coming out of his pockets on a 100°f day(38c?) In 1995 someone broke the window of my car and that's all they took, just that vest. But yes, a modern LiPo battery pack, say just cool a neck wrap, it would work much better, as a summer scarf😜
Hi Rob, in one of your videos about PT evacuated tubes (I think) there was a bit about nano particles being great for heat transfer, just wondering if that paint went tacky and you gave it a dusting of nanos would it give a better result?
This coupled with high temp sand battery would be interesting. The cost of generation with conventional TEGs is just too high, but if one could generate decent amount of energy with reasonable area this might work. Trombe wall also comes to mind.
What about a metal roof? I don't know what determines the voltage difference, if it is mass or contact area between the conductors, but If you were to paint the underside of the metal roof sheets with graphite paint, that would give you a junction of the dissimilar conductors. Might have to take into account any galvanized coatings or the amount or spacing of wires. With the sun on the roof, and air gap spacing between the metal and the roof deck, you should have a temp difference between the op and bottom side of the panel. With a ridge vent, you should have a stack effect cooling flow on the graphite paint side of the panel, and the sun heating up the tin side. Probably wouldn't be much of a temp delta, but if all it entailed was painting the bottom of the panel you were going to put on anyway, and connecting wires to both sides under the ridge cap it seems fairly inexpensive. Guess it would be worth a small scale test anyway.
Unfortunately you can't just coat the bottom side of the roof to get the TE effect, if you look closely at Robert's painted paper or the diagram of the TEG, the junction is the small part which gets cooled or heated while the bulk of the material is only there to provide different resistance/capacitance so the roof and paint act like the bulk of the material and there should only be one small patch where the paint makes contact with the roof to act as the junctions.
@@VeniceInventors Thanks, I wasn't sure if it was larger contact area that increased the effect or if the total mass of the conductors, or something else all together. If It only needs a small contact patch, that may make it even better. If you have a north and south facing roof, you can just adhere a film from the peak of the tin/sunny side with the roof decking of the shady side, and then paint strips on the roof decking before covering with the rest of the roofing metal. I assume the greater potential difference will be at the extreme edges away from the junction? Wires could be run that far, but I wonder about the danger of electrifying your whole roof.
@@target070 I'm not sure about the exact requirements, but the TEC/TEG modules have a very short distance between the ceramic plates (essentially the height of the semiconductors) so the length of each "leg" doesn't seem to be much of a factor. What seems to matter most is the temperature difference between each junction, and then the number of junctions and difference between the conductors used. Seebeck used copper and bismuth but other conductors and semiconductors work too. The thermal conductivity of the roof can be taken advantage of but not really its electrical conductivity unless it's split into many small isolated patches serving as junctions. Now one could imagine running a really big copper cable between the north and south sides of the (white and black painted) roof to have two junctions at different temperature and it should work, but how well, I don't know. It's worth a try if you have some spare copper cable, or make a small scale prototype to validate the idea with the same conductors. The location of the connections wouldn't really matter as heat only rises if there's a fluid like air (convection), otherwise by conduction alone most of the roof would be at the same temperature (unless there is air trapped underneath).
Thats what I was thinking when I saw the wearable as well. Maybe use it to power a wearable wireless charger that can just keep feeding the watch. Probably can't keep it charged but I bet it dramatically increases battery life before recharge.
doesn't the hair dryer emit ionised air created by its heating element? To make this a more sound demonstration I suggest isolating the electrodes with some scotch or paper. It will still transmit heat, but prevent ions from bombarding the electrodes
In my mind I see the circuits laid out like a Child draws the sun. Stacked on top of one another to sleeve over the black pipe on my firebox. 500° should be useful.
I have heard about an electric generator based on the effect of an electrolytic capacitor, almost all the electric capacitors I have never remain completely discharged, they always retain their charge and the larger the surface area of the electrode, the stronger the charge, for example an absolutely huge 4700uF/400V, short-circuits after a month it charges to 0.4-0.8V in a another month, very interesting, but the energy is very small, some said that a more powerful generator can be made on this principle, it is probably protected by a patent, but it would be interesting if it can be made at home at least for powering a digital alarm clock for hundred years. Some older capacitors can recharge for many year, I have heard of fatalities when the high voltage capacitor recharged, but there is conflicting information as to whether it was a bad discharge of the electrolyte when the charge returned or just a well-insulated TV screen where the charge was maintained for 30 years.
Why aren't TEGs used to capture passive decay heat from processed radioactive waste or from the natural decay of radioactive elements like uranium & thorium ? Also why can't such radioactive decay heat be used in conjunction with heat exchangers?
I think I heard Photovoltaics generate heat, perhaps the recovery of that through this process is worth while if it is simply printed on the back of a panel substrate. Idk
So then you would be left with do I cool a panel for more efficiency, do I collect power from the heat generated? Cost, maintenance active, passive etc. etc. etc. as in does it fit with what you wanna do? I don’t know… I wanted to do it for a number of reasons that are my own, maybe this is the way they printability process is intriguing, as the printing method could be ridiculously simple without tech.
Okay so lets sum this up a solar cell with a thermoelectric panel on the back side but how do we get a good cooling circulation without any power losses?
Inexpensive fans maybe that are powered off of the thermal or solar? Blows through a wind tunnel at the bottom of the thermal plate to cool it? Have to hope that it generates a significant amount more than that fan might require though. 12v is low end from what I see, may not be worth cooling the underside. Perhaps just expose it and let the shade or wind cool it passively?
The paint is conductive, it doesn't/can't generate. But used as a 'junction'(s) the effect can generate. Some time ago Rob showed this effect by painting sulphur etc onto metal tapes and metal sustrates. Look it up.
@@trygvetveit4747 say you have a bunch of collectors that make 1 volt each how would you wire them to a battery.... If I connected mine to a car battery to store the current would surge from the battery to my collectors and burn up... How do you make your collector to the battery one way
@@trygvetveit4747 it is a little more complicated than that, you would need an auto-switching series / parallel modulator to maintain a regulated output. Nothing that cannot be easily achieved with a raspberry pi. what you have to remember with TEG is that the voltage is generated by the temperature differential which is always in a state of flux as the device is serving as a form of thermal conduction and dissipation. but with a simple switching / modulating circuit you could maintain a fairly constant voltage (enough to put the output through an MPPT charger and onto a battery for storage) the amperage would vary up and down of course dependant upon the temperature differential but that is no different than any other form of green energy collection through MPPT :D
I'm trying this by dipping tin foil strip to sodium silicate. Let it dry and dip to conductive ink. Repeat 10 000 times and make fire bricks for gimney ;)
I have a theory that a big component in ageing is cosmic rays. I came to this conclusion after watching a cloud chamber with no radioactive source in it.
Wait. Did you say lead? What’s the melting point of tellurium and how far apart can they be? Or should they say that steam is still the optimum vessel for our favorite form of “pyrotainment”! And, So why not use the extra electricity to produce liquid nitrogen? Until trips to the moon…
I heard you right? You moved? Can we get an update on that, please? I try to watch every video on all 3 channels and I did notice you were making more videos from home, but do not recall you mentioning specifically that you left the 'shed'...
If it can be scaled up to a larger production for *cheap,* then it can become worthwhile. That was Rob's main point. So far, most of the commercial ones are a bit pricey for what kind of size and generation you can get out of them. Things like Peltiers/TEC's. In those forms, it doesn't make much sense. But you could paint a large surface area with a relatively inexpensive graphite paint and some other semi conductor material, well, that low conversion rate is not going to matter as much. Sometimes it is quantity over quality (and other times it is quality over quantity). The beauty of these is their potential high durability/long lasting nature. So not only are they cheap at the upfront costs, but long-term maintenance costs will be very cheap too, which needs to be factored in to the whole picture.
I have to ask- do you have trouble sleeping? It seems like your brain is going 24 hrs. a day. And some of your subscribers must never sleep either. Mike from Mass. USA.
i just skimmed a paper saying that if you paint 2 graphite strips different widths they will have different seebeck coefficients and can therefore become a thermocouple generator. They used an HB and 6B pencil to draw two lines. Title of the paper:
"Single material thermocouples from graphite traces: Fabricating extremely simple and low cost thermal sensors"
on another note, i wonder if the graphite-painted foils in battery cells can be used as thermocouple junctions. I will give it a try, as i have a lot of junk cells
Nice info thanks. 3D printing a conductive filament at different thicknesses could work in this case. 👍🏻
Thanks for being exact on the source. Found it right away! A++
Excellent ideas. Let us know how they work out?
I've been wondering if a block of thermo-couples in the focus of a parabolic trough/disk would generate useful power; fabrication might be tricky (not the trough/disk, I've got that nailed).
The answer is yes, the foils will work as long as the they are of differing resistance/reactance from one another and can easily pass current. If you have those available to you, then please do so and let us know your results and thoughts on it. I am currently coming to the opinion that what is going on with this effect is in a way rectification of light(just my opinion mind you). Heat is in my mind infrared light electromagnetic waves. A normal rectifier basically just clips the wave such that it doesn't cancel itself out. That in essence is what we are doing here with heat. To think of it as rectification makes it much easier for me to wrap my head around these concepts. Thank you very much for your comment and inspiration!
Stating up front I have no info on if this would work but it'd be easy to try...
I'd be interested is if drying different sections of the paint while under DC current (or magnetism ) made things line up differently and improved/diminished output results of 2 graphite traces used as a thermocouple. The obvious ones of say positive (or North ) towards the junction compared to one away but also, it it makes a difference, then to try drying one along axis the other perpendicular of the later electron flow.
My thinking here to make them more different to each other and see the effect.
That is the Wild thing ! The Simplicity of this kind of thoughts is what leads US to sustainability for the upcoming years. The more we know, the more peacefull we will Be. Thank you again Sir.
Here is a bit of an experiment for enthusiasts currently playing around with TEG/graphite applications. Take a very fine graphite powder and impregnate it into an insulated material. Run a high voltage through the graphite on the insulator. This will cause channels to form in the graphite that are of the lowest resistance through the surface. Afterward, connect to the non-burned in graphite and the burned channel. The contact points on the now different impedance materials will make a micro-thermocouple(well many of them actually). I have made high voltage speakers in this way with graphite powder and two thin plastic sheets. The graphite powder is in-between the two sheets that are in a frame and causes them to make a vacuum between the sheets. Not particularly difficult to do, just be cautious working with the high voltage. Be smarter than what you are working with. Thanks again Rob!
I love your videos. Daily, I look forward to them so much; they are not just 'wild possible theories,' but rather, you materialize your theories and create practical, usable devices that anyone could replicate. You seem so humble and have so much knowledge.
Thank you for your hard work and good service. I do my best to like all your video's, have already subscribed to both of your channels.
Warm regards from The Netherlands.
Totally Agree 💯 with you!!
(I used tive in Einkhuizen, Netherlands!!
Until I was 7/8yrs of age,,,
~the fact that I shamefully speak very little Dutch,,,,
,~is because Everyone there spoke Perfectly Great English, from Primary School age and onwards!!
Good to meet another Netherlands Here!!❤
(I'm half Welsh Roma Gyosy on Dad's side but Mother's from Einkhuizen!!❤!)
Andrea and Critters....XxX....
How very nice to recieve your message! Thank you, that is very nice to read. Ah yes that's typical usually they do speak English here yes, I can imagine.@@AndreaDingbatt
I agree with you. Cheers
I'm so glad I still have some of your ink/paint. It's collectible now 😅
How about using copper pcb or aluminium pcb material and silk screening or using a plotter for printing the graphite paint part. Then take this panel and put the hot joints in the sun and the and the cold joints in the shade. Maybe even using a non conductive black paint coating for the hot joints and the new white cold paint for the cold side. This way you could create a non silicon based solar panel. I think this is worth a shot.
talking of copper, on his spark bang buzz webpage, Nyle Steiner detailed that "copper" junctions can generate 0.3V if 1st oxidised in a propane torch, touched together then one wire heated up more than the other. PCB fab methods akin to your suggestion might offer an easy way of manufacturing 2 complementary pcbs which could be arranged to touch each other at a high density
@@stevecummins324 hmm. That got me thinking. ...
Hi Rob, great video. Thank you!
I'm happy to have about 3 liters of your "genius" Ink in stock, it's the best paint so far I used.
Yes, I agree, it's a pain to make conductive ink. My home made ink has 5 Ohm/squared.
I like to recommend everyone to watch the old "Rob" videos about conductive ink.
Thank you for sharing. I want to show this video to my child and it looks simple enough that we could test out
Go for it!
Hmmmm, this has given me an idea; I wonder if copper oxide can be made into a paint.
Win, Win, Win situation! Love these videos Rob! Keep them coming!
Lovely stuff. I'm wondering if this could be used to generate power from the undesirable heating of photovoltaic cells?
Any temp differential will do it, the more drastic the the differential, more you'll generate.
@@andrewsmithmilan1780 I live in a place where the daytime temperatures can reach 40 degrees+ during the summer. I don't know how much heat a full underpannel of heatsinks with fans could shed, but I'd imagine it would be pretty substantial.
@@samuelsim7457 you must be talking Celsius, 40f is chilly
@@andrewsmithmilan1780 Yes. I'm Canadian. We do Celcius up here.
30 years ago someone gave me a 2“ x 2“ thermal electric generator with ceramic plates on each side. I put a boiling pot of water on one side, and the other surface was submerged in the solution of ice and calcium chloride.
I believe I had 5 V at one amp coming out of that TEG
Like it. Your conductive paint isn't available? NOooo! It was way superior (IMHO). 1-Ohm/sq@25mic (40x Electro-Smeg?) Wow.
I remember you doing painted electro/heat with sulphur and metal tape on metal substrates (roofing), how does this differ?
Does 'soldering/brazing' the joint of m-m thermocouples have any good/bad effects. I'm wondering about continuous spot-welding flat strips in order to boost the current aspect, but wondering if a soldered/brazed joint(s) would be ok instead.
Could you get another paint manufacturer to make your paint, under license of course? Selling it with links/leaflets/projects of things you can do with it. Surely schools/colleges science depts would be a good client base. What was the biggest PITA about making your paint?
Thanks for sharing so much.
Great stuff there Rob. Thermo electric generating paint on an Aussie roof, even in winter and bang power. Of course, I have already covered my roof with panels, but I like where this is going mate.
I've wondered about this for a while - also an Aussie. I don't know if these are efficient enough yet, but it surely makes sense.
heat from the back of your panels can be equipped with some kind of T.E.G. Check for it, :)
@@huguesmassin8903Nice!
@@huguesmassin8903 you could be right but they on the roof of a two storey building. Not a job for me.
I've often thought of this too. Our Aussie summers can be right royal stinkers. If you have a north facing roof, even better for solar, PV or hot water. Cooling any panels you have will usually increase their efficiency but I've often wondered about extracting energy from their heat too.
If the lines were painted in circles would it increase voltage? Assuming you would use a small flat surface to bridge the circles of course
I was trying to use distilled vinegar to copper electroplate the conductive PLA, but it creates copper acetate in the mix and dissolves the PLA. What you end up with is a dust of copper(II) oxide-covered carbon particles. Copper(II) oxide has a high thermoelectric effect.
That's another reason why I always print with ABS.
i didnt even start the video and I gave it a like I trust your titles to videos. Too many CZcamsrs sold out the titles... Thanks! you are one of my fav youtube treasures!!!
Nothing to it but to do it! Every drop in the bucket counts. Amazing!
Now we’re talking I’m building a giant thermo electric battery with 500 modules storing hot sand in giant water heaters.
Fantastic Idea to Paint TEGs on the outside of the aand batteries!!
Would you be interested in writing your findings here please,if you get time enough?!
TIA.
Namasté 🙏.
My question would be on how to scale up the junction. Would a 4 inch by 1 inch segment work? it would seem to me that the lead collector might need to be all of the same part of the junction material to help with that lead collapse issue you sometimes get when joined, as these can form new partially made junctions just like what you are doing, but work function flipped, fighting your output. I am thinking of a half ladder shape of aluminum or other foil, with an insulating plastic running the collection rail, and then paint on the conductive paint, and you have a half sheet of junctions with some working area, but I don't know if you can make the junction area that large. I am also thinking that using a stencil, and a rubber rolling wheel, you could rub a graphite powder, and the pressure would make some graphite sheeting thru most of the area, then spread on a higher temp epoxy as a fixing agent to protect it, and it might be more effective than an ink.
Fascinating 😊
Will you get more effect if you overlap a much bigger surface. Easy to do with paint
I bet this can be leveraged to increase the efficiency of sand batteries, if I'm understanding this correctly. I have a question though, technically speaking, would covering the exterior of your home in this help to protect it from an EMP? I'm in America and it sure feels like its time to begin the doomsday prepping in haste. Lol
A faraday cage that doubled as a thermoelectric generator would probably do a subpar job in both areas.
@@bearnaff9387 In what fashion? Not asking out of conflict but ignorance. I would think it could only be an enhancement without detriment to a sand battery. Where does the harm come from?
@@LawrenceMarksOfficial I was more referring to your comment about your home from an EMP. I definitely understand the desire to build something multifunctional, but the functions of a faraday cage (RF isolation without any way for energy to penetrate) and a thermoelectric generator (current generation via the exchange of thermal energy through a "hole" more or less) are opposed. I think they're opposed enough that making a device that worked as one of these would impede the function of the other so badly that it would never "pay for itself" in terms of the materials and effort expended to make it.
As for using a TEG with a sand battery, I guess it depends on what you want the sand battery for and what you want the electricity for.
Every TEG "pile" added to the battery will generate more power, but will also be a point where heat will radiate out more quickly than the rest of the surface. This can be exploited, and is not necessarily a negative thing.
As for power, you will be extracting very small amounts of electricity for a very large thermal gradient. If you need work performed, you might want to see about heating a boiler and using a steam engine. If you are just trying to power an indicator LED or run a fan to better circulate stored heat, you're on the right track technologically.
@@bearnaff9387 Yea looking into it after your reply, it did seem that it could potentially block an "environmental EMP" but ... yea thats not the point. lol
So, in the graphite/aluminum combo, it looks like you hooked up the positive to graphite and negative to aluminum. I ask because I think I'd like to try this on a concrete wall next to a wood stove (well call it that for simplicity). If I place stripes of graphite (say 1cm wide and 2cm apart), then interleave aluminum on top, that should make up the right combination so long as I hook up the graphite to the positive and have AL as the last conductor for the negative. Did I interpret that right?
Just moved into a new home, and while doing some packing I came across my FWG graphene ink; the standard ... and water proof.
I'd like if you did a vid about making that whey powder & graphite - graphene... waterproof.
I've been stuck on this idea since you pencil lead thermopile idea. I live in texas and summers here are brutal. The temperature difference between an attic and the living space can be nearly 70 degrees on some days. I'd like to see how much energy I'd make with that kind of differential.
I guess you could get a rough estimate : measure cubic meters of air in the attic. Measure the temperature of air in the atic in the morning. Get a rough estimate of outside "max" temperature of the day. Ask the question : how much heat do I need to to heat up X cubic meters of air by Y degrees. Voila. As an example, for a 40m^3 atic, and a daily temperature difference of 40C, you can obtain 414.15Wh energy every day. Does not matter if you use a steam engine or a peltier device.
Next step is use water instead of air and you just become "rich" ( as long as you can cool down the water every day )
I see you read all the comments!!
I thought about responding to that comment about using it for thermoelectric saying something about the low efficiency, but having not done any tests myself I thought better of it.(you have better equipment)
Lol 🤣 35lb Lead Acid Batteries would have killed that for myself also,😅
New, lighter Batteries might just Revive your idea 🤔 maybe?!! 🙂👍
@@AndreaDingbatt , Maybe, I was using tubing in the lining, much like the original astronaut underwear, I would need to find better thermal transfer, a chainmail of copper tubing would be a nightmare, graphite fiber works good but once through the washer/dryer you got a conductive faraday cage of lint on ya! Great if you are constantly threatened with stun guns(the conductive lint film shorts them out and you don't feel a thing) but it's itchier then fiberglass or even itching powder, likely worse then asbestos for your lungs..
I've seen a fabric of fine stainless thread and regular cotton that's actually soft but it's like $1000 a yard.
Anyway ...
I thought it was cool at the time (a freshman geek in college)
Built-in to a fishingman's vest, plenty of pockets to hide pumps, Peltier modules, wires , heat exchangers.. one of the 5 12v alarm battery jell cells.
It was only effective on hot days if I put dry ice on the hot sides of the the
Thermal junctions... Imagine a big guy wearing all black with white smoke coming out of his pockets on a 100°f day(38c?)
In 1995 someone broke the window of my car and that's all they took, just that vest.
But yes, a modern LiPo battery pack, say just cool a neck wrap, it would work much better, as a summer scarf😜
Did someone say , " Peltier " ! :O) Thanks for the info .
Hi Rob, in one of your videos about PT evacuated tubes (I think) there was a bit about nano particles being great for heat transfer, just wondering if that paint went tacky and you gave it a dusting of nanos would it give a better result?
This coupled with high temp sand battery would be interesting. The cost of generation with conventional TEGs is just too high, but if one could generate decent amount of energy with reasonable area this might work. Trombe wall also comes to mind.
Another interesting harvesting potential. This is where we understand the background of Rober as a chemist if I'm not wrong.
Apply the paint to the waterproofing under the roof. 🎉🎉🎉
Sand battery comes to mind
What about a metal roof? I don't know what determines the voltage difference, if it is mass or contact area between the conductors, but If you were to paint the underside of the metal roof sheets with graphite paint, that would give you a junction of the dissimilar conductors. Might have to take into account any galvanized coatings or the amount or spacing of wires. With the sun on the roof, and air gap spacing between the metal and the roof deck, you should have a temp difference between the op and bottom side of the panel. With a ridge vent, you should have a stack effect cooling flow on the graphite paint side of the panel, and the sun heating up the tin side. Probably wouldn't be much of a temp delta, but if all it entailed was painting the bottom of the panel you were going to put on anyway, and connecting wires to both sides under the ridge cap it seems fairly inexpensive. Guess it would be worth a small scale test anyway.
Unfortunately you can't just coat the bottom side of the roof to get the TE effect, if you look closely at Robert's painted paper or the diagram of the TEG, the junction is the small part which gets cooled or heated while the bulk of the material is only there to provide different resistance/capacitance so the roof and paint act like the bulk of the material and there should only be one small patch where the paint makes contact with the roof to act as the junctions.
@@VeniceInventors Thanks, I wasn't sure if it was larger contact area that increased the effect or if the total mass of the conductors, or something else all together. If It only needs a small contact patch, that may make it even better. If you have a north and south facing roof, you can just adhere a film from the peak of the tin/sunny side with the roof decking of the shady side, and then paint strips on the roof decking before covering with the rest of the roofing metal. I assume the greater potential difference will be at the extreme edges away from the junction? Wires could be run that far, but I wonder about the danger of electrifying your whole roof.
@@target070 I'm not sure about the exact requirements, but the TEC/TEG modules have a very short distance between the ceramic plates (essentially the height of the semiconductors) so the length of each "leg" doesn't seem to be much of a factor. What seems to matter most is the temperature difference between each junction, and then the number of junctions and difference between the conductors used. Seebeck used copper and bismuth but other conductors and semiconductors work too.
The thermal conductivity of the roof can be taken advantage of but not really its electrical conductivity unless it's split into many small isolated patches serving as junctions.
Now one could imagine running a really big copper cable between the north and south sides of the (white and black painted) roof to have two junctions at different temperature and it should work, but how well, I don't know. It's worth a try if you have some spare copper cable, or make a small scale prototype to validate the idea with the same conductors.
The location of the connections wouldn't really matter as heat only rises if there's a fluid like air (convection), otherwise by conduction alone most of the roof would be at the same temperature (unless there is air trapped underneath).
How about the wrist band of a smart watch that has this build in? You could charge it while wearing it, no need for overnight charging?
Thats what I was thinking when I saw the wearable as well. Maybe use it to power a wearable wireless charger that can just keep feeding the watch. Probably can't keep it charged but I bet it dramatically increases battery life before recharge.
Decades ago I made a cooling vest using thermoelectric but a 35lb belt of lead acid batteries killed it for me...
Does this mean that the heat sinks in our computers have the potential to generate a bit of electricity?
👍👍👍
Conductive filament.
Could you make aluminum paint to go along with the carbon paint? Then both legs could be screen-printed.
Could you use a magnifying glass or similar to create this effect without burning anything?
doesn't the hair dryer emit ionised air created by its heating element?
To make this a more sound demonstration I suggest isolating the electrodes with some scotch or paper. It will still transmit heat, but prevent ions from bombarding the electrodes
Could this be used in a coat to scavenge power from body heat?
Would it work if you rap it around a sand battery?
10,000 junctions will produce a few millivolts and ZERO current. Been there, done that.
Space probes"🤣😂
In my mind I see the circuits laid out like a Child draws the sun. Stacked on top of one another to sleeve over the black pipe on my firebox. 500° should be useful.
I have heard about an electric generator based on the effect of an electrolytic capacitor, almost all the electric capacitors I have never remain completely discharged, they always retain their charge and the larger the surface area of the electrode, the stronger the charge, for example an absolutely huge 4700uF/400V, short-circuits after a month it charges to 0.4-0.8V in a another month, very interesting, but the energy is very small, some said that a more powerful generator can be made on this principle, it is probably protected by a patent, but it would be interesting if it can be made at home at least for powering a digital alarm clock for hundred years. Some older capacitors can recharge for many year, I have heard of fatalities when the high voltage capacitor recharged, but there is conflicting information as to whether it was a bad discharge of the electrolyte when the charge returned or just a well-insulated TV screen where the charge was maintained for 30 years.
Why aren't TEGs used to capture passive decay heat from processed radioactive waste or from the natural decay of radioactive elements like uranium & thorium ? Also why can't such radioactive decay heat be used in conjunction with heat exchangers?
insufficient power density.
Wonder if it could be a crude solar panel as in just using the heat of the hot sun , Might have to be in a desert mind.
I think I heard Photovoltaics generate heat, perhaps the recovery of that through this process is worth while if it is simply printed on the back of a panel substrate. Idk
So then you would be left with do I cool a panel for more efficiency, do I collect power from the heat generated? Cost, maintenance active, passive etc. etc. etc. as in does it fit with what you wanna do? I don’t know… I wanted to do it for a number of reasons that are my own, maybe this is the way they printability process is intriguing, as the printing method could be ridiculously simple without tech.
Okay so lets sum this up a solar cell with a thermoelectric panel on the back side but how do we get a good cooling circulation without any power losses?
Inexpensive fans maybe that are powered off of the thermal or solar? Blows through a wind tunnel at the bottom of the thermal plate to cool it? Have to hope that it generates a significant amount more than that fan might require though. 12v is low end from what I see, may not be worth cooling the underside. Perhaps just expose it and let the shade or wind cool it passively?
The paint is conductive, it doesn't/can't generate. But used as a 'junction'(s) the effect can generate. Some time ago Rob showed this effect by painting sulphur etc onto metal tapes and metal sustrates. Look it up.
A butter warmer!
Nice, how does a TEG compare to IR solar cells?
How would you collect the microvolts so that it's usable
put them in series intil til you get 1V
you can then make series parall to any Voltage you wish
Same way some other batteries work
@@trygvetveit4747 say you have a bunch of collectors that make 1 volt each how would you wire them to a battery.... If I connected mine to a car battery to store the current would surge from the battery to my collectors and burn up... How do you make your collector to the battery one way
@@trygvetveit4747 it is a little more complicated than that, you would need an auto-switching series / parallel modulator to maintain a regulated output. Nothing that cannot be easily achieved with a raspberry pi. what you have to remember with TEG is that the voltage is generated by the temperature differential which is always in a state of flux as the device is serving as a form of thermal conduction and dissipation. but with a simple switching / modulating circuit you could maintain a fairly constant voltage (enough to put the output through an MPPT charger and onto a battery for storage) the amperage would vary up and down of course dependant upon the temperature differential but that is no different than any other form of green energy collection through MPPT :D
Mate, when you talk about substances with different conductivity, are you talking about electrical conductivity or thermal conductivity?
Electrical most likely.
I'm trying this by dipping tin foil strip to sodium silicate. Let it dry and dip to conductive ink. Repeat 10 000 times and make fire bricks for gimney ;)
ok, youneed to make that into a gaming chair, that way gamers can generate electricity while gaming :D
Couldn't see the meter. How about an iron-graphite junction?
Loved the video and insight. Thank for the upload Robert!
I have a theory that a big component in ageing is cosmic rays. I came to this conclusion after watching a cloud chamber with no radioactive source in it.
Do you think it would work on a roof top, have a wonderful day!
Wait. Did you say lead? What’s the melting point of tellurium and how far apart can they be?
Or should they say that steam is still the optimum vessel for our favorite form of “pyrotainment”!
And, So why not use the extra electricity to produce liquid nitrogen? Until trips to the moon…
Rob please diy 12 volt TEG
You don't make the ink anymore 😞 I never got a chance to buy it.
can you turn carbon dioxide into graphite
I heard you right? You moved?
Can we get an update on that, please?
I try to watch every video on all 3 channels and I did notice you were making more videos from home, but do not recall you mentioning specifically that you left the 'shed'...
00:51
The Seebeck effect is notoriously inefficient for use as a TEG.
Why waste time on a 3% conversion ?.
If it can be scaled up to a larger production for *cheap,* then it can become worthwhile. That was Rob's main point. So far, most of the commercial ones are a bit pricey for what kind of size and generation you can get out of them. Things like Peltiers/TEC's. In those forms, it doesn't make much sense. But you could paint a large surface area with a relatively inexpensive graphite paint and some other semi conductor material, well, that low conversion rate is not going to matter as much. Sometimes it is quantity over quality (and other times it is quality over quantity).
The beauty of these is their potential high durability/long lasting nature. So not only are they cheap at the upfront costs, but long-term maintenance costs will be very cheap too, which needs to be factored in to the whole picture.
TEG vs Thermocouple. Anyone
I have to ask- do you have trouble sleeping? It seems like your brain is going 24 hrs. a day. And some of your subscribers must never sleep either. Mike from Mass. USA.