SPECIAL EDITION SABATON Father Reaction
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- čas přidán 24. 07. 2024
- I have a far more intimate knowledge of this subject matter than most so it was a very affecting song.
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#sabaton - Hudba
The father who created chemical warfare ( Fritz Haber) also created synthesize ammonia which a chemical fertilizer which allows crops to be grown faster and more effectively which made him win the Noble Prize and is still being used today.
ah, i knew it was familiar but i couldn't place it-it's one of those bits of history that are absorbed and learned but not referenced for years. thank you.
Ammonia is also a component in high explosives
He also believed his chemical weapons were simply the next step in human warfare, and those soldiers who complained were akin to knights complaining about guns in warfare.
Sinner or a saint?
@@PVL_ yes sinner for millions of lives died from poison gas and saint for the billions of lives live today. I did see a thing that maybe up to 90% of the people of the world living today do so thanks to him.
The "Manifesto of the Ninety-Three" is the name commonly given to a 4 October 1914 proclamation, originally titled in English "To the Civilized World" by "Professors of Germany" that was endorsed by 93 prominent German scientists, scholars and artists, declaring their unequivocal support of German military actions in the early period of World War I. These actions were elsewhere called the Rape of Belgium. The Manifesto galvanized support for the war throughout German schools and universities, but many foreign intellectuals were outraged. (Wikipedia)
ah, excellent, thank you!
@@JammersMetalMischief
Einstein was one of the only three people who signed another manifest which decried the Manifest Of The Ninety-Three.
I don’t think it’s dropped enough in the song that he actually is responsible for about 5 billion people being able to live today, through his creation of the haber process. He was dedicated to science, but during times of war like mentioned in the song he answered the call of his country.
The phrase "Where will his inventions lead. where will it end", is a reference to Zyklon-B which he also invented.
ah, very good
@@JammersMetalMischief Correction, Haber did not invent Zyklon-B directly, the Nazis took his work on chlorine gas and other poisonous gases and used it as a base to make Zyklon-B
To be clear, he did not develop Zyklon B, nor did he partake. His work was however used by others to produce Zyklon B. He was just developing pesticide essentially. (Zyklon A).
Slight correction, he invented Zyklon-A, which lead to the development of Zyklon-B. Him being a jew makes it even more tragic in my eyes.
Another great song by Sabaton. They put out a history episode on their other channel (when first announcing the song) that gives more of the backstory of Fritz Haber and his controversial legacy. I am not sure if this is what they meant, although someone on another video I seen pointed out that the lines where they refer to what's coming next and where it will lead is referring to the Holocaust (Fritz's other research into pesticide gases was co-opted by the Nazi party a few years after his death and modified slightly to develop Zyklon-B, the chemical used to kill Jews in the gas chambers, including some of his own relatives). His life is definitely one of great good and bad, a tragedy in the most literal sense of the word.
i watched that immediately upon finishing this reaction. great stuff
Coming from my 10 years of history studies:
I feel that Haber is deserving of his Nobel Price and not an entirely amoral person as some, or many today, assert.
He was a man of the early 20th century in many ways. A completely integrated former Ashkenazim, a glorious chemist, the inventor of chlorine gas and Buntschießen ("Colourful Shelling" using mixed chemical agents in order to break the protection of troops and thus the line), a convinced member of the scientific society, a staunch German patriot, a Prussian drillmaster in his field.
I feel that we don't have the luxury of condemning a person like Haber for his choices, and they follow clear lines - though not exactly popular ones in modernity - but this is because we have not fought World Wars for just under a hundred years and "our" believe in "our" (as a species) inherent greater maturity is currently (autumn of `22) being shelled straight to hell in Ukraine and it's (hopefully remaining so, we might also see something very much like the first and second Balkan Wars in '12 and '13, if we are especially unlucky we are living in an extended July Crisis) "Proxy World War" between NATO, EU and Russia fought on the fields of Ukraine.
We just can't truly understand the decisions and preferences of historical characters. Always keep in mind that "the past is a foreign country" and it would be presumptuous to claim to fully understand or condemn the ideals and motivations of only a hundred years ago.
Evidently you have, well, almost first hand knowledge of the potential horrors of C warfare, but this is us late 20th/early 21st century people with our ideals and morality.
Best regards
Raoul G. Kunz
Remember that the creator of the nobel prize (Alfred Nobel) invented dynamite
i understand where you're coming from-but i also feel that those who DID experience it on the battlefield then came home, told their families and societies, and it hasn't happened again on that scale. They then passed that on into Rules of Engagement and it hasn't happened on the same scales again. (Saddam Hussein notwithstanding) I think that says that the morality is not that different at all now, it's just more abstract because the last three generations were smart enough to stop it.
@@JammersMetalMischief I'm not denying your points - as I said: I'm a historian, you're in this specific case more of a practitioner.
I also grant that there is a point to the fact that even Hitler did not deploy chemical weapons... against military targets that is, his own people and those he regarded subhuman where another matter.
I also concur that the fact that no first world power has deployed C weapons in war ever since is a result of the sheer psychological horror.
We should however not forget that the first, more-so than the second actually, World War was a war that felt very much (and to a degree was) a supreme life or death struggle not seen on this scale before and the perception of Haber, like so many others on both sides, must have been that a defeat would be absolute, would be *finis Germaniae* and so I can not bring myself to truly condemn him for using all the resources and skills at his disposal in a struggle that must have felt (and *was* for the "old World") an apocalyptic battle.
I'm not saying it wasn't a horrible decision and on an abstract morale level a deeply despicable one.
I just feel that Haber could not have made a different decision.
Please don't misunderstand - I'm not endorsing it.
Best regards
Raoul G. Kunz
One could make the same comments about the project Manhattan, to which a number of reputed scientists took part.
Their goals were the same, yes. A weapon so devastating it would end the war. It seems the main difference is that Haber's weapons didn't achieve that goal, whereas the Manhattan project's creations did.
@@zodiachimera7557 No, the Manhattan Project did not end any war, and nukes are no different from Haber gases. Yes, yes, they caused Japan to surrender blabla. This is not true and this has been known for a long time.
On the plus side, their existence stops the superpowers from starting 3WW. For when any of them dares to do so, it will be the end of humanity.
@@zodiachimera7557 Does not change much though. The creation of said weapon created an arms race that killed a lot of people in effect. To this day the threat of a nuke is an ongoing issue and is arguably the reason why we don't see more pressure put on states that are openly corrupt - that possess Nuke(s).
gotta be one of my favorite reactions of the channel so far
thanks!
Gotta say - Fritz never regretted is actions as he made the gas in order to stop the war from being an ongoing problem, just like the US nuked Japan. In his mind, adding this weapon would save lives, now the outcome was obviously very different - But yes, this is an morality question as it was done to prevent more deaths.
Having all that said, I'd call Haber a normal person who was great in his field of work. He was neither good nor bad, just like many of us. Some actions were great, some were not.
Sabaton is always hit for sure
100
The song has a grim Halloween vibe to it.
it really does! very mad scientist in the visuals.
This song is about Fritz Haber, a Prussian (German) scientist who's legacy is very controversial. Haber (along with another scientist named Carl Bosch) found a way to solve one of the major issues plaguing humanity and science up until that point in time, that is how to sustain the worlds ever expanding human populations (as the Earth does not have enough nutrients present naturally in the soil for us to produce that much food). His work into this topic led him to create the process by which ammonia is synthesized, a key ingredient in fertilizers (it is estimated in some studies that our current global population levels could potentially be between 4-5 billion people lower if not for this). He was however a patriotic German, and when the first world war broke out, he actively used his skill set to research and create chemical weapons for the war effort (with Germany being the first to use such weapons, such as chlorine gas). He personally directed these efforts during the war and showed no remorse for creating such terrible weapons after the wars end. Furthermore, the pesticide Zyklon-A (which he created) was slightly modified after his death in 1934 by the Nazi's (whom had come to power in Germany at that point in time) who co-opted his work, and turned into Zyklon-B (the agent used to kill millions of Jews in the gas chambers during the Holocaust), thus one could argue making Fritz partially responsible in a way for this (even if he himself already dead). He therefore saved billions and also led to the deaths and injury of thousands, if not millions of others. His story truly exemplifies the truly duel nature of most people in history, being both a sinner and a saint. A tragic tale in the most literal sense of the word.
I'm pretty sure "The manifest of the 93" is a reference to the 93 Scientists working for the German Empire during ww1.
He also save millions, and he didn't want it to be a weapon either
i still have to go back through the history of it again, it's been a lonnnng time
More like billions (some studies suggest our current global population level could be as high as 4-5 billion lower than it is if not for his inventions). That being said, this is not a case where he did not want or expect his work to be used as a weapon, but quite the opposite in fact (during the war years, he used his knowledge and skills to actively develop these chemical weapons, as well as personally supervise their deployment and use by the German army). He was a patriotic German and proud of his wartime service, and as he said "during peace time a scientist belongs to the World, but during war time he belongs to his country". Like most people in history, his story is one of the duality of man and how good things can also be used for less noble pursuits, and so I would say in reference to the song lyrics that he is both a sinner and a saint.
He definitely worked on chlorine gas with the intention of a military usage. It's definitely more morally grey than people think. He actively participated in military research on chlorine gas and argued that gas was no more immoral than bullets or bombs, stating, "The disapproval that the knight had for the man with the firearm is repeated in the soldier who shoots with steel bullets towards the man who confronts him with chemical weapons. [...] The gas weapons are not at all more cruel than the flying iron pieces; on the contrary, the fraction of fatal gas diseases is comparatively smaller, the mutilations are missing". This does not diminish the work he did on ammonia and fertilizers as that has allowed an unprecedented population boom and the prevention of starvation for millions if not billions of people, but he was not some peaceful scientist who only wished for his experiments to be used for good. He is truly a morally grey figure in ever sense, and should not be considered a sinner or a saint, simply a man.
this one was a little slow for me, I am a big fan of that background riff though.
it's got heavy menace.
Didn't he also create Zyklon B which was used in concentration camps
Nope. Though they did use his research to make it, Haber himself was not welcome to the Nazis due to his Jewish heritage.
Yes, but he was dead before it was used as anything but a pesticide.
@@zodiachimera7557 Zyklon B was invented in 1920 by Haber and his team. It has nothing to do with the Nazis because they did not yet exist at that time.
He created Zyklon A, which was modified by the Nazi's slightly to make Zyklon B (so part of his work more or less directly led to this for sure)
@@zodiachimera7557 his military service exempted him from the removal of Jews from the workplace laws which were passed by the nazis
However in consolation of his jewish workers / students who were fired he resigned in their honor to support them. His institute he founded and his students were responsible for a cyanide-based pesticide after he had left that the Nazis had ordered them to remove the safety odor they had given it forming zykon-b which was used in the hallocaust.
His inventions in toxic gases hadn't stopped after the Great War. He had invented the Cyclone B for Nazis during the WW2
More like they ripped off his research to make that. He was considered a 'filthy jew' and some of his own family members were victims of the Holocaust.
Not for the Nazis. They just took his invention and used it to murder people.
He wasn't alive during the time of ww2
His inventions continued for sure, but he did not invent Zyklon B (he invented Zyklon A, which was then further modified shortly after his death by the Nazi regime to produce Zyklon B, so one could argue his work helped make this possible, but not that he invented it)
The song is soo sweedish it could v
Be a national anthem