Are Squares and Hexagons BAD for Board Gaming?
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- čas přidán 19. 05. 2022
- Some of the best modern family board games such as Catan, Carcassonne, Ticket To Ride, Monopoly, Uno, Scrabble, Jenga, Game of Life, Codenames and Suburbia all have players gathering around a table to learn how to play and have an enjoyable game night. These top games are some of the most popular amongst new gamers alike.
In this video we pit two shapes against each other in the context of board game design and flow. The SQUARE vs the HEXAGON!
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This video was extremely fun to make and despite how large the scope of board game design is, this video doesn't try to answer everything there is but rather is a starting point for some cool board game conversations.
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The Board Game Sanctuary is a family friendly board game channel that aims to introduce the board gaming hobby to new and seasoned players in a light, fun and humourous way. - Hry
In Seikatsu, I love how the hex board facilitates three players to have different scoring conditions based on their seating orientation ! I can't think of another game that does this - please state them if you know of others.
Separately, Dr Knizia was very clever in "re-shaping" Ingenious (polyhex) into Axio (polysquare) and Axio Rota (square, with colored quarter circles in each of four corners). Should we think in three dimensions next?
Hi Tony!
Thank you for sharing these geometric games. They are really cool and I would love to check them all out! I've added them to my little board game list. I actually think there are some cool 3D games out there like Planet which uses pentagons around a dodecagon.
I have seen Seikatsu quite a few times in different game shops but you my friend have really brought it to the top of my radar. It looks like something my family would totally enjoy! Thanks for sharing.
In terms of seating perspectives in a game, I can think of 2
* Ryan Laukat's ROAM
* Lanterns
Definitely check out Roam as each player plays character movement cards from their seated perspective to control parts of a world map. Its actually quite creative!
Danny
Obligatory 'Hexagons are the Bestagons'.
The “diagonal dilemma” is a hard one, but I want to share a thought. There are two planes of existence on a square grid. You can easily see this in chess, with the white and black alternating squares. Each player has two bishops; one can only ever travel on white, and the other can only ever travel on black. My point is, the advantage to moving orthogonally is that pieces are freely able to switch planes of existence. Strict diagonal movement is usually faster, but it cuts your board presence in half. It’s a real tortoise and hare situation!
The ultimate game designers dilemma! I guess that is why in chess they have pieces that can move orthogonally (eg queen) and diagonally (bishop). Its all about manipulating the grid movement on the board. Thank you for sharing your thoughts! :)
m team triangle
Unless you have two different movement cost. 1 movement point to orthogonal, 1½ to move diagonal. (Or 2 and 3 if you don't like fractions.)
The only advantage squares have over hexagons is that you cannot make a perfect hexagon out of hexagons (you get a serrated one) but you can make a perfect square out of squares.
To add to your comment, You can subdivide the larger squares into smaller squares too!
I'm an avid hex fan, but a friend convinced me that no grid is best. While using a grid to draw up a map is helpful for making everything congruent, eliminating the grid after the map is made is best, and you use a measuring ribbon to track movement
I love the ribbon idea. It provides enough constraint but also enough flexibility to move in different directions that aren't always a straight line.
Great video. Loved it, so I subscribed. I think for games which use buildings the square shape tend to be better, but games with use landscapes is generally better with the hexagon in my opinion.
I have played a lot of dungeons and dragons and here this is illustrated particularly well where, dungeon or city maps tend to be better squared, but open terrain or big overview maps tend to be better with the hexagon, especially if the maps or boards are bigger.
Of cause I love chess, Dungeon Quest and Hero Quest which use squares as a board very well, but when it comes to strategy fighting games or exploration games I love the freedom, option and look of Hexagon games like Settlers of Cataan, Kingdom Builder and the Castles of Burgundy.
Two triangles make a quadrangle... like a square! Six triangles can make a hexagon!
I'd love to see games that make use of *both* squares and hexagons together. Not in the way Castles of Burgundy does it, where the hexagons are used for tile-laying, but the squares are only for set collection. But both for tile-laying, either in the same space (and connecting) or different spaces in different ways.
Yes. This is an interesting idea. Subdividing polygons into triangles (pretty much the internal sum of a polygon rule). Would be cool to see a game use this sort of geometry in a board game.
you can simulate hexagonal tiles by using square tiles that you offset by half its height for the next column/row.
Yes I discovered this later on when I did more researching. Its ingenius!
Everyone knows that Hexagons are the Bestagons.
hahah that is so true. Love that video!
i hate that video so much
@@jojobod Why ?
@@SuperAnirock the arguments are really shit. “Triangles form hexagons!!!1!!1” yeah but hexagons are made of triangles
Also hexagonal chess should be a fucking crime
Great video and great analysis mate! I really love how you have showcased all those great games and explained how they relate and differ from one another!
Thank you so much Kevin. Yes getting all those games set up for the video was quite a task :) I appreciate your kind words. Thanks!
Wow! Very well done. I learned a lot. Sadly, puzzley, tile games aren't really my thing. I did make an exception for calico though, because I love the theme!
My favorite game genre is the Dungeon Crawl. I prefer hexagons for natural spaces: outdoors, caves and squares for man-made spaces: building and dungeons.
I was looking for a video EXACTLY like this, thank you for doing such an in depth take on this! I'm starting to design a game, and want to create a map that's different every time you play, but is also always a surprise. Seems like hexes or polyhexes is a good place to start! Got a sub from me man!
Thank you very much. I'm so glad that I could help out! I hope the game design goes well. Yes hexes feel more organic but it will be interesting to experiment with polyhexes and see what that looks like on a map. A good game to check out that kinda has trihexes is Inis. :)
For me, Whenever I first look at a hexagonal game layout it instantly looks more complicated than something similar in a square shape
That is true. I think cause of the added sides, the lines naturally look more busy!
Very interesting and well made vid. But I think a mention should have been made for games that use no tiles, where movement is not geometrically constrained. Also of note is that most of the maps presented are exterior maps, the square wins hands down when you switch very square human structures, such as interior maps. Many games with movement will also use conceptual or representative shapes, think Risk for instance. But yeah, food for thought.
Yep. It depends on the purpose and context of the game. A grid like system probably works better if you've got players running down corridors in an abandoned building but hexes work better if you're expanding a farming system. I would love to make a follow up video about non grid based movement systems. But alas its always great to hear different perspectives on game design so thank you!
honestly i'm always excited when i see a hex board, its weirdly became a mark of quality where it's clear the designer put thought into how things should tile.
that said squares definitely get the job done and hell the boardgame i play most is chess.
the board shape doesn't make or break a game, it's just one of those little details that makes a game seem more of a passion project.
I agree. I like the look of a hex map! Although, I am curious to see if games might use a triangular shaped map more and experiment with other polygons
Man, brilliant video! I'm currently making a print n play game where I'm trying to make a square modular map. Your video was exactly what I needed. I'm very intrigued by kingdomino! I wonder if I could do something similar, but in an incline instead.
Thanks so much! I really appreciate the feedback! An incline would be so cool to experiment with! I have heard a few people say that you could offset a square grid to give the movement a more natural feel to it. Might be worth exploring!
@@BoardGameSanctuary offset how? Like from corner to corner?
@@ElElefante so usually a grid would be like an array (lined up in rows and columns). An offset grid would be one where each row in the grid would be slightly pushed to the left or right meaning that each square space now touches 6 other square spaces. :)
@@BoardGameSanctuary Oh this is a great idea! I'll see if I can make that work
What an interesting topic! And a great showcase of many fun and interesting games! Now I want many of them haha
So what are your thoughts on different shapes being used in board game designs? Share your thoughts! :) I'd love to hear them.
I haven't thought about it actually! But really great points! I think I tend more towards the hexagon because of the variety! But love Carcassonne, it's so fun. A game we really love, War Chest also uses a hexagon map and that defines the way pieces can move and attack... Which would be limited if they were squares!
@@virgofortissima Thanks for recommending War Chest. I have seen it a few times but wasn't sure how it plays. What do you like about it?
@@BoardGameSanctuary it's an excellent and super replayable 2p game! It's relatively quick, which is great when you have kids. Both players have 4 units, and they're all different so it's very assimetric, and of course some units are stronger than others, but you have to work with what you got! Also it's not about 'defeating' the other, rather than controlling these points on the map, so sometimes you want to go all attack, meanwhile the other is busy controlling and then they win, even if you were stronger! There are two expansions that add more units so increase replayability as well!
I'm in progress of making a turn-based fighting game myself (that's how I found out about this video, wanting to see other people's thoughts on what's better) and in the past versions of the game, the map was a square grid, where you could move both orthogonally and diagonally, so you had eight options as each character. It always created two problems:
First being, that yes, as mentioned in the video, if you wanted to move the fastest possible way, you'd usually use the diagonal direction.
The second, to me probably even more important, is that these characters each had/have their own unique spells, some of which they could cast in any direction. The problem is, that some complex spells casted diagonally would have to look entirely differently from orthogonally casted ones.
In hex field, there's none of these problems, as the field looks the same to all six sides, so I'll probably change the map to hex-based instead. Thanks for the video.👍
You are most welcome Xevy. I thoroughly enjoyed reading your thoughts on game design and I am so glad that this video helped you out!
I love not being able to move in a straight line! Thanks hexagons!
Why does it have to be one or the other? Why can't there be both in 1 set? As long as the sides are teh same length, and the graphics follow the same rules, it would allow you the benefit of acccess to both.
I love hexagons though I like maze type canes too! Thanks
Strangest fan war in board gamming.
my #2 fav game has movement on squares fighting ghosts but I've always wondered what it would be like with hexagons.
Which game is that? I just got into board gaming and isn’t familiar with all the games.
@@green_lavender Ghost Stories! If that sounds interesting to you, you should try it out! Really hard to win! czcams.com/video/u5M6V8C_WIo/video.html
@@green_lavender Yes I would love to know that game too! The only one I can think of right now is Ghost Stories?
I'm glad I watched this video in spite of its title.
Team Hexagon :) Wonderful presentation. Left me thinking.
Thanks Douglas!
Nice video!
What about offset squares? Functionally a (and I believe the original) hex pattern. I don't like hexes. Although, if they were just offset dots, I wouldn't mind them as much. I don't know, just asthetics I suppose.
I think the game Cubitos uses offset squares which is a dice racing game. I personally prefer the use of a hex grid, but in saying that there are some racing games that opt to use offset squares as a way of evening the spacing on a race track.
@@BoardGameSanctuary I am not familiar with that game. If you like hex gird maps/playing boards you should like offset squares as well. They are functionally the same thing. Likewise, offset dots. What I really dislike about hexes is that most games that use them seem to feel obliged to fill in the hexes with land or water and thus have really chunky hex land/sea maps which is really unappealing to me. It is mostly aesthetics, but I mostly avoid games with hex maps.
@@johncullen9436 I haven't seen many games using offset dots, but I think that would be an interesting way to explore a map. Using the dots as you said would reduce the visual abstractness of the map itself and make it look more natural. I think its worth exploring and trying out. I'd love to see some examples of maps that use offset squares and dots. Its good not to just use something just because everyone else does it. I guess it would also have to fit with the theme and world of the game as well. :) I have really enjoyed reading your comments and would love to hear more. :)
It really depends on the purpose.
I think hexes provide the best balance of intuitive design and realistic movement. Just look at all the war games that have been made with hex-grid maps.
Yes I much prefer hexes as well. It just works so well for environmental movement and gameplay options.
Very insightful, thank you
You are most welcome!
Playing text based dungeons and dragons back 20+ years ago, and table top D&D, I understand the orthogonal movements in these games. Games with larger maps in some of the games we own, the hex works better. I love your explanation in this video, especially the math, without saying the theorem involved. This could be a way for tutoring a math student having problems with geometry and pre-algebra. I use the baseball diamond for athletic type students. I wish you would make a list of games shown in this video. Some look interesting to add to my collection. The polyhex only has 8 ways to set the tiles, since it shares an edge next to the edge that joins them.
Having built on this text based games, I loved the idea of creating a maze. It challenges the creator of the maze designer. Unless you invent coding to make it more interesting. Which was what was eventually done on the game I was writing a zone for.
Thanks for sharing your thoughts. I really enjoyed reading this especially cause I played DND online during the last covid lockdown. Yes you are right about the poly hex only having 8 ways to set the tiles. I am sorry that was my oversight. I totally agree, board game design is a fantastic way of teaching geometry, algebra and maths. Having these cool design shapes wrapped in different themes and mechanisms makes it more appealing and digestable!
Ooh I would love to hear more about the games you have written. and created.
@@BoardGameSanctuary I was among many zone designers in a game called MUME - Multi Users of Middle Earth. It is based on text code of multi-user dungeons, however a man doing his PhD in Maths and algorithms invented its own language later called MUDDLE, Multi-User Dungeons, DLE. I wish I have continued contact with some of these guys.
MUME exists to this day, there are still new zones being added. New aspiring people to take the place of those who have moved on in their lives. I started in April 1992, and left for a bit in 94 until 1999. I met my husband on Old East Road in early spring of 2000 and we have been together since, after we figured out the logistics of who was moving where in the world. It will always hold a special place in my heart. You can google the game, or Facebook search it, if you are interested in looking at it. I created a zone two east of Bree (after exiting the gate, the 11th move west puts you in my zone, and it is the Old Forest. You will understand why this a sore contention with me and Peter Jacksons version of the LoTR
@@Stormbrise Thank you so much for sharing this. I love Middle Earth and this sounds supremely awesome! I just can't fathom how much work you would have put into creating this.
Little town! Love that game...
Its amazing to see so many hidden 'Little Town' fans out there. Its so great!
Have you played Glen More II: Chronicles?
No. But I have really really wanted to. The box looks quite big!
@@BoardGameSanctuary It's slightly taller, wider and longer than the standard box for Scythe. Should you ever decide to acquire a copy, I highly recommend three things: 1. watching the Funtails official CZcams video to organize components as you open the box for the first time. 2. upgrading to metal coins. 3. getting the 3D printed organizer trays from GameFoundry's Etsy shop. Not only do they store everything nearly perfectly within the box without the need for Ziploc bags but it also comes with replacement clan markers which are ten times better than the flimsy cardboard ones that come with the game.
As for gameplay, I find it to be an enjoyable lower medium weight Eurogame with fairly interesting choices which scale up in complexity the closer you get to the end of the game. Those sheep and cattle generating tiles you passed on from the A stack become much more valuable when you encounter tiles from the C or D stack. And the eight (or nine if you get the KS version) Chronicles that comes with the game easily make GM2C the most replayable game in my collection.
@@unlimitedrabbit Thanks for sharing this really helpful information. I think you may have convinced me to get it. :)
What about triangles?
You might have totally unlocked another video right there. :)
About the "diagonal dilemma", the solution is simple. Adjacent movement cost 1 movement point, diagonals cost 1.5 movement points. The actual distance between the center of a square and the center of any other diagonal square is equal to the square root of 2, which is 1.414... A movement cost of 1.5 is slightly above that value, but close enough. Only after 12 diagonal moves you would have moved 1 square more than the actual distance. And to fix this, a special game rule could remove 1 movement point from a player that had moved 12 diagonal squares.
this is very awesome
Thank you!
I'm octagon + square filler gang
team dodecagon and team octagon
woah now thats another idea for a video!
Cyclades uses hexes
Heroquest uses squares
Kemet doesn't use hexes.
Warhammer 40k has none.
The world is perfect like this :)
Yes its so cool to see how different shapes work best for different styles of games and the games still remain so good.
hex
:D
:)