Is it safe to open air brakes/spoilers in a turn?!
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- čas přidán 29. 07. 2024
- Is it safe to open the air brakes during a turn? We do some tests to find out! And answer some of the other feedback we had.
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00:00 Dangerous Turn
00:24 Bucket Hats Rock
00:48 Why not use the motor?
02:05 Was I tired?
02:38 Skidding Turn?
03:07 Opening the Airbrakes
03:47 Testing Opening the Airbrakes in a Turn
06:53 So is it safe to open the brakes in a turn?
07:33 Approach and Landing - Věda a technologie
During training I was taught that it's not something you should never do, but should avoid doing, specially when you're relatively new to flying.
The reason being, is that it's perfectly safe as long as it's a conscious decision where you have checked that it's safe to open them, but it can become a habit to pull the air brakes on the base to final turn, and habits like that can turn deadly.
If it's a conscious decision that you're making, you'll check your airspeed and how the aircraft feels in the turn before pulling them. If it turns into a habit you'll generally not do so, so you might do it on a plane you're not familiar with, or even when already pushing the limits in your turn. You might even know you're on the edge of stalling, but out of habit just pull the brakes anyway. Best thing is to stay away from it, or open them before the turn, but if you have to open them in a turn to land safely it can be done with the right precautions.
Yeah great point, cheers!
I think alot of the "stigma" about brakes out in the turn comes from training, where we stop pupils doing it in the final turn - primarily because more often than not its too much workload, and suggests they haven't stabilised the aircraft onto the approach. A pilot learning the approach will generally be unable to pick a reference point, nail the speed, judge their descent and complete a turn, all with the brakes out. So we teach to only open the brakes once all the others have been set and you're lined up where you want to go. Usually the brakes come out in the turn when the pilot knows they're too close in and high - a failure of circuit planning.
Once you're experienced, and particularly if you're landing out after XC, you can open the brakes whenever you like, so long as you have the speed for it, as Tim demonstrates here.
Yeah good points too, cheers
exactly. As a student, it's good advice. As you develop as a pilot and become more skilled and know more about your aircraft, it's fine to use the airbrakes in a turn if you need them.
To stall at any speed you need to have sufficient pitch authority to exceed the critical angle of attack. At typical approach speeds in a well banked turn onto finals, there is unlikely to be sufficient aft stick authority to g-stall most aircraft (unless the speed comes back to near normal approach stalling speed in a turn). This is due to the normal nose down pitch tendency in a moderate/steep turn, which needs to be countered with rear stick, thus reducing the useable aft stick range available. Unaccelerated stalls in a turn are another matter.
I would have liked to have seen Tim demonstrate opening the spoilers to at least 2/3 once already established in his simulated finals turn.
I am completely lost when I read that. Aren't you suppose to extend airbrakes during the base leg? Then retracting them for the final turn, then extending them again after seem to be more workloadthan just letting the brakes as they are during the turn.
@haltux training obviously varies by country. In the UK we teach new students to only open the brakes once the final turn is complete and you're set up on your approach. They can be used before that to adjust height, but it's preferable to widen out your circuit if possible than use the brakes.
As discussed am experienced pilot is free to open brakes on the base leg if they judge that necessary to approach where they want. The point I make is that early students don't always have the experience to make that judgement, particularly in advance of completing a turn, lining up on their reference point and adjusting their speed etc. We also try to avoid the "landing lever" mentality where early pilots go through the motions and just open the brakes after the turn because that's next - we're trying to teach them to judge the picture and open the brakes if and when needed. Therefore it makes sense to not open the brakes before the picture is set.
However the takeaway is often "don't open your brakes in the turn". An unintended consequence and the video shows why that's not the case.
More "experimental videos" like this! You're doing a good job!
Thanks! Will do!
Thanks for the vid. I was trained by really excellent instructors at the Cambridge Gliding Center in the early 2000s. Was always taught that you can/should use airbrakes even during a turn if required (for instance if you find yourself in rising air and way too high on base leg). As you show nicely, the difference in stall speed is really minimal. Much more important is to be obsessed with never being low and slow. Rather a bit too much speed near the ground than too little. If your speed is good you won't be anywhere near a stall.
Yeah agreed, use airbrakes if and when needed. Cheers
Stalling has nothing to do with speed. If you were trained correctly you would have been shown a demonstration of high speed stalls.
@@randomtask99 Stalling and airspeed are intrinsically linked assuming identical configuration and identical G-loading. Yeah, stalling isn't caused by flying at 'less than 'x' airspeed', but when comparing 'like for like', it has a lot to do with speed, which is why 'Vs' is a thing.
@@JulianShagworthy I'm afraid you haven't been taught very well. Stalling is nothing to do with speed. Stall from level flight will happen at a certain speed indicated on the ASI which confuses a lot of people. Stall is related to critical angle of attack and nothing else
@@randomtask99 Ha! You - "Stalling has nothing to do with speed." Also you - "Stall from level flight will happen at a certain speed..."
Caused by? No. Related? Definitely.
I like to do it. My instructors never explicitly told me but I just feel more comfortable turning with them closed.
This video has really sparked great discussion of the topic from many pilots around the world.
The best idea is possibly that every glider is different, so you need to investigate your own glider’s “personality” at a safe altitude by (for example) doing the “brakes in a turn” experiment, demonstrated in this video. Another experiment that could be crucial is to test the limits of the sideslip at altitude before doing a sideslip- landing.
Absolutely!
Perfect educational video for someone like me, just recently flying solo! Thank you for the time invested into this channel - keep it coming Tim🤠👍
Glad it was helpful!
Thanks for the video. For new pilots, they need also to be aware that some glider change the pitch when opening the spoilers. Once combined with a turn, a new (or overloaded) pilot could speed, reaching the stall and getting in trouble.
Good point! Cheers
Changing the configuration of the glider late in the circuit is a clear indication that mistakes have been made earlier. During the transition addition drag is incurred. I teach if too high use full airbrake and loose 1/2 the excess height and then close them. During the period the airbrakes are open the vairo cannot tell you what the atmosphere is doing.
I was the full time professional instructor for 20 years at Portmoak, during this time we developed a program for Strathclyde University, aerostructures course, half mechanical and half aeronautical engineering. The course went from less than 20 to over 200 in 15 years,
During these years we gathered lots data. The most important is that during transition of configuration (particularly the airbrake) created much more drag than before or after the deployment. Hence the current advise is do not change configuration in the turn where margins are slight.
Interesting thanks for the feedback
great to see you back on line !!
Just too much to do :)
Really interesting video, your final turn remembered me my instructor telling me "not to refuse the ground if the ground is too close" (=keeping the speed up when close-to-the-ground maneuvering is required), cheers
Loved that gripping the stick tight thing scrolling through the menus haha
Fantastic stuff Tim & well explained, that landing was like butter mate!
Thanks mate!
Thanks for a very informal video - I really enjoy your channel.
You really point out one thing that is crucial - speed, it all depends on speed.
Here in Sweden we teach out that your final speed should be "1,5 times the stall speed and half the wind speed" in that configuration is it not so dangerous to open the airbrake as your speed is well beyond the stall range.
In our club do we as well teach that actually take the airbrake out of the locked position on downwind - why , well all of our gliders are with retractable wheels and we have "gear up" warning devices connected to the airbrake lever - this prevents a lot of situations that could have ended up in a belly landing as the pilot have plenty of time to correct for a mistake where the gear isn't down.
Also as a lot of comments say - it also depends on knowledge and experience of the glider.
I try to learn my students to have the the "air brake in their hand" i.e out of stowed position during downwind (for the reason above), not extended during turn into final, and then use it when established on final.
Well done Tim! You proved that point with real-time flight testing. Doesn’t get any better than that.
BTW, I recently purchased my first sailplane, a Standard Austria SH-1. 😊
Hey congrats, that's great news!
Hey!
I perfectly agree with your conclusion that opening airbrakes during a turn in a landing situation should not be a problem.
In Belgium (where I learned gliding), teachers told me to open airbrakes from the base leg and not to close them during the final turn if I needed them. Finally, keeping a safe speed is the key to avoid any dangerous situation.
Yeah sounds about right! Cheers
As a student pilot. I'd like to say thank you to Pure Glide and to the reasonable discussion being held in the comments. This is all very helpful to me.
I have to agree with Mark that Pure Glide is an excellent channel.
Not only because of the high quality videos that Tim produces, but also the contributions of the commenters are very useful and respectful of everyone involved.
Well done Guys! 😀👍
Oh you guys, stop it! And yeah it is good to have decent discussions and comments from people, it's a good quality audience!
@@PureGlide It really is a good quality audience.
I’ve seen some really nasty comments on other channels!
Hope those “Nasties” never come this way.
Welcome back, great vid as always!
Thanks! Don't worry hadn't gone too far haha
Love your videos, educaitonal, good to watch, bring it to the point. Love it. Keep up the good work
Thanks, will do!
Another really interesting vid Tim, and well demonstrated working through the different secnarios/comparisons!
Thanks Jessie! We'll get you into gliding yet :) great to see you're having fun in Aussie
@@PureGlide Absolutely want to! Something for when I'm back in NZ one day
God, this is such a point of contention at my club. I'm pro spoilers on turns are ok (provided you are aware of the risks)
At the club I fly in France (and in all of France, afaik), we usually crack open a bit of air brake after turning base, check for symmetry of the breaks, and leave them open all the way to touchdown, just changing the amount. This means that the turn to final was usually done with air brakes open. Never a problem.
Flying C101 Pégase, C201 Marianne, Janus C, ASH 25, etc
Once again, amazing stuff!
Cheers!
I like this channel a lot.
But recently and as your from NZL I can't help but think...
Ireland are going to visit you next month for a 3 game test series 🤯🏉
In my opinion, both sports are awesome and fun to do next to each other (and I really like the channel too)! Greetings from Holland 🇳🇱
Update: Irelands wheels have falled off again and NZL are back to their world beating selves
I do it all the time. Just have to maintain good speed control and perhaps reduce spoilers when really low, but with correct speed management is no issue.
Thanks for the excellent video! I’m a beginner pilot building up my solo time in prep for my PPL test. My first instructor taught me to deploy my 2-33 dive brakes 1/2 at the start of my downwind to base turn. I’m not concerned about stalling, but as some have pointed out, it is a lot of tasks to manage simultaneously…ie, airspeed, angle, altitude. Would you suggest deploying brakes on base after completing my turn to base? Gonna run this question by my current instructor as well. Safe flying!!
Important topic to address! Crucial is to not open them fully at once but rather bit by bit in a controlled manner. I remember that in the older gliders (Ka-7) the brakes would tend to want to open full once you open them. Some of our 'rules' come from the times of older gliders. Next flight I will check stall speed in landing configuration (at safe altitude) playing with the brakes.
Good point! Cheers, have fun playing :)
I been taught you can only stall if you are loading the wings. Eg if you need to do a base to final turn make sure you don't do a skidding turn if you have any load on the wings, and be aware you'll drop like a stone. I passed my PPL test here about a week ago. Just waiting for the authorities to issue the paperwork.
"you can't stall a wing a zero-g" -> czcams.com/video/2pGuoc11lxY/video.html
Hey congrats Glenn, that's awesome!
Hi, Tim, How’s it going? Good to see you back. 😀
That was an interesting demo, thanks. 👍
Hey mate, good! Been busy :)
This is the most bizarre conversation. If one is at risk of stalling in the pattern with the brakes open, you are at risk of stalling with them closed. If one finds themselves in that situation they aren’t flying at the proper approach speed.
Great video, something about the mix of inside/outside footage in this one just flows and nicely ties the whole thing together. Can't really put it into words :D
I'd agree with your conclusion that opening brakes in a turn is probably fine, it might be a belief that's persisted from older gliders with airbrakes that could have a different effect on lift - just as a guess.
Starting to get jealous of you chaps in the North Island having nice winter flights when it feels like it's rained for weeks here further south...
Hey thanks mate, don't worry this was filmed weeks ago when it wasn't constantly raining yet :) and thanks for noticing the video style, I thought I'd try a few shots between topics to break it up!
I totally agree kiwi - the shots and transitions while chatting were on point. Take note Tim! 🤣
Super!
Great video Tim! One of your better ones from a chatting standpoint. I really like the conversation while in flight and panning to cool views as you have the discussion on the topic.
As for dive brakes in a turn, it's the only way I fly the pattern. We get a LOT of sink in Florida at the end of the day, and the only way to protect against it is to not lean on the glider's glide performance in the pattern. So we fly a reasonable but tight, half dive brake (yes from abeam touchdown point), triangle plus 5 pattern to avoid being caught out in sink.
Sounds very sensible! and actually that sounds ideal, half brakes, so you have options either way. Keep doing that I suggest!
@@PureGlide I've noticed a lot of European pilots fly a massive pattern and then on half of their final they'll then use half dive brakes. I find this interesting but can't come to grips with flying the pattern that way.
So yes hehe I will continue.
Yeah often we do that to conform with other circuit traffic. They love doing big circuits...
MDM1 FOX 🦊🙃Driver from Austria here. I also release the brake flaps a bit on the approach, as long as you pay attention to enough speed, and always keep your nose below the horizon, it's not a big deal. Much more critically I look at the square approach with 2 quite tightly flown curves, which I always flew wrong. I always fly a very flat 180 degree turn with little bank. to talk into the final approach.. Always happy landings.
Yeah I think it’s good to have reasonable turns, nothing ‘wishy washy’
Would be interesting to see exactly how many meters of altitude did you lose on that stall (in a turn, with brakes) and how many meters does it take to recover..
Ingo Renner was always hot on this topic during my training. I suspect it was due to the stall margins and the learner not necessarily being aware of them as you describe. Thanks for the insight.
Interesting, cheers!
Hi, great content really enjoy your flights
As an ex instructor in the Uk
I used to teach pilots to do good curcuits and final turn to be 300ft plus.
You being a good pilot you can push the bounderies and still be safe.
Going one stage further on the stalling in a turn,
Whilst on my full cat course i was shown 2 x turns
One over ruddered bringing the glider to stall in thermalling angle of bank.
Two same as above but apply top rudder away from turn.
Bring stick to back stop on both occationd and watch the difference.
This will open many eyes up whilst thermalling with other gliders.
We have ALL stalled in a gusty thermal.......I think this would make a good topic for you to do.
I look forward to more flights .
Well done
Mick
Thanks Mick, yeah good points. Cheers
I have a habit of opening the brakes on the base leg(When you are straight and level) and then adjusting the glide slope(if needed) all the way to the ground, also during the turn... Now I wonder how much will for example extending the brakes from half to full affect the stall speed, I'd need to go and test that out... Probably depends on the airframe. But anyway, that additional safe margin of speed over the stall speed is the most important thing, everything else goes with the situation.
Your videos are brilliant and very helpful. Thanks for that in the first place.
But I have an idea for maybe a next video...? Maybe you can make a video of how to center a thermal. Maybe talk about what you think at that moment when you maybe turn a closer turn to the left/right and so on.
Hi yeah always open to requests, thank you, thermalling technique is a good idea! Thank you
This is an interesting topic and something I have experienced which could have ended nastily. I'm going back to the 90s at Lasham, I was trained on a K13 and Grob 103, as you appreciate the 103 has a better glide ratio. With the instructor I had on the 103, on my downwind leg, if required, I could open the air brake and had it in its lowest position (point before you lock it shut). I did the turns to intermediate and final leg, say 400ft. No problems in this instance with the brake in this position. On the finals, stick to control my speed, air brake for attitude aiming for my point on the airfield. With the K13 however, thankfully I had an instructor with me, I did the same, however in this case, when I did my intermediate to finals, my lower wing stalled. Immediate stick forward, close air brake (by the instructor), it was a bit of a nose down attitude looking down at the ground was a bit frightening. The instructor took over and did the landing and explained that this was very dangerous. I haven't done gliding for a long time (since last century 😀), trying to keep up with CZcams posts by pundits as I'm considering doing gliding again ......so just basing on my experience, one has to consider the performance type of the glider if turning with the air brake open.
Absolutely good point, thanks for sharing!
Thanks Tim .a great point for debate. As ever, it depends 😁😄
What you're flying, where you're flying it, who you're teaching, what example you're settling all feature in the answer 👍
PS ground taxiing a landing glider towards vehicles or buildings would trigger a very robust conversation with the CFI at my home club 😁
While I agree on the taxiing towards vehicles/buildings, I wouldn't say that's a universal everywhere. If you're an experienced pilot, familiar with your glider and make a point of testing the wheel brake before initiating the turn then I don't see the problem if the runway is busy.
I was hoping that someone would bring up the "setting an example"-argument. It's always worth considering what habits other, less experienced, pilots might develop from copying you. Especially if you're an instructor.
Yeah it’s a good point- I have a technique that might not be obvious: I’ve already used the wheel brake before turning towards the fence line, so no more brake is needed to stop in time. I’ve had lots of wheel brakes fail on me! Good point about it being a bad example…
And driving a retrieval car towards a landing glider would have done the same for my Granddad! (which folks would do all the time and get him going.)
To be honest though he didn't even like anybody driving a retrieval car straight at a stationary Glider. His rule of thumb was to point past one of the wings. He would say well what if the brakes fail or the steering goes...
@@rmay000 Yes, just human nature really. "Well, I saw HIM doing it.....!"
Would love to see more videos where you're flying that was awesomely demonstrated. What about a video which shows how flaps affect attitude, trim, flight path in their various settings, and how to use them to best effect on cross country flights?
Yeah I made a flaps video early on, check my back catalogue! Certainly can do more like this
@@PureGlide Had a look, can't find anything? It would be brilliant to see, thanks very much!
Here you go! czcams.com/video/w954n50freg/video.html
I am still PIT (recently had my first solo, yay!) and was told never to open brakes in turn (but I can of course have them opened and do a turn), as it is unpredictable. And as far as I can tell, it is right thing to do, because landing is always stressfull situation for new pilots and adding unnecessary things to check is leading to overload. But I am absolutely sure, that experienced pilots can deviate from that rule.
Yeah exactly right, for beginners, you don't want too many variables to deal with at the same time, so it's a good idea to focus on a good turn and airspeed. But saying that, if you need the airbrake, use it! Cheers
this is a long shot but do you train student's in person? How about students in the US? What if I flew out to you?
You're one of the best instructor on CZcams and I'm sure far beyond... I'm looking for an instructor in New England, Massachusetts area... Thanks for all you do to keep pilots safe.
Hi thanks for your kind comments! I instruct at my local gliding club as a volunteer, so am only rostered on once a month or so. Unfortunately I can't charge for my time as I don''t have a commercial license, and can't afford to take more time off work at the moment. So training on request is not possible I'm afraid.
In a rare event that air brakes do not open symmetrically, it could be difficult to figure out quickly what is happening, and with the ground proximity it may lead to many further problems. IF they do open symmetrically, there should be no problem - but what-if remains. (That is the explanation my instructor gave me).
Yes, we do a brake test as part of our checks, usually at the start of the downwind.
@@PureGlide Thanks for the explanation!
Nice hats
Thanks Sbob!
Excellent video!! I’m a beginner glider pilot building up my solo time for my PPL exam. My old instructor taught me to pull 1/2 dive brakes on a Schweizer 2-33/2-32 during the turn from downwind to base. I’m not concerned about stalling, but feel this practice increases an already busy workload. When do you usually hit your spoilers/dive brakes? Any suggestions? Safe flying!
Yeah I didn’t quite make clear in this video, but it’s best to open on base or finals, but don’t actually open them in a turn because of the workload, also some air brakes can affect the pitch of the glider more than others. So yes stick to going straight I suggest to begin with especially
Thank you!!
When I was transitioning from the Schweizers I trained in (2-33 and 1-26) to my new to me PW-5, I had heard a fellow club member talk about how you should always stow the breaks in a turn, especially when in the pattern. My very first flight in the PW-5, went well. for my landing I entered the pattern. I had flown several training flights in our club Grob 103 and had been amazed at how different the stored energy in the patter was compared to the Schweizers. You really do have a lot more energy to bleed off on your way down and the "half brake" technique I had read about all of a sudden made sense. Anyways, back to my first landing in the PW-5. I was doing fine. Brakes in and out to hit my expected altitudes, stay high since we have a mile runway. I was looking good. I extended my downwind slightly further than usual, but that was due to having a lot more than 22:1.
Here is the point of my story. I went to turn to base, stowed my brakes (as I had been told it's safer), made my turn and came out significantly lower and possibly too low. I quickly realized I had a brain fart and had fully deployed my brakes rather than stowing them. Fortunately, some training is muscle memory and i shoved the brake handle forward, and made turn direct for the runway cutting out the final leg. I had lost at least 100' likely more in that turn. I actually did as trained and pushed the nose down to keep my speed up deciding if I was too low, I'd dry to use ground effect to "hop over" the fence at the beginning of our runway. Fortunately, I was able to make it across with just enough altitude, though several people said afterwards I wad "too low."
My point to the story is maybe the brakes open or closed can cause an unnecessary distraction in the landing. Thanks as always!!!
Oh and obviously I was going fast enough that full brakes didn't cause me to stall or spin in the turn, so I guess in that scenario it wouldn't have mattered.
Main thing is to keep your airspeed/aim point scan going and making nice well banked turns. The amount of air brake you apply almost becomes a subconscious act unless you have stuffed up your circuit.
Yeah exactly right, the airbrake handle is simply a rate of descent tweaking adjustment knob once you get used to it!
Great video again. Very instructional. Now I have a question regarding the parachute... Is there record of a midair or something where someone had to actually climb out of the cockpit, free fall and open the parachute?
There have been a lot of glider pilots bail out of their aircraft. In New Zealand here we had someone jump out of a club’s discus due to controls being blocked. Also at the world champs I went to in Australia, we had a mid air where both pilots successfully jumped out. So it does happen!
@@PureGlide Gotcha! Thanks for the reply. Better safe than sorry then... Keep up the good stuff!
first of all: amazing videos that you make! second of all: please please please allign the lx in the center of the instrument panel
Haha yes one day I’ll redo my panel!
Great video. This question is highly analogous to people saying you shouldn't move the flaps when you're turning, on powered aircraft. I think it's a reasonable guideline for early-state tuition to do one thing at a time and only start to combine things when you have the knowledge and experience to do so, and more importantly when your act / scan / react cycle capacity has improved to the stage that you can cope with it all. But a pilot's aim for handling skills should be to develop yourself to the point where you can use the full flight envelope in safety. And in this situation it's AoA rather than speed that counts. Brake deployment directly reduces lift as well as increasing drag so if you hold constant AoA as you do it you will feel the increased sink and a slight increase in turn radius - but that's only going bring you closer to a stall if you try to compensate by honking the stick back a little. If you are near the ground and having to turn at a near-stall AoA, it can only be that you are in a situation where you don't want to worsen lift and drag in any case. If you want brake in a final turn it can only be because without it you know you would be hot and/or high, so there's no way you will be trembling in the buffet. If you don't increase AoA as you open the brakes you won't get any closer to the stall. This and your related landing video are really excellent, by the way. You're so open and non-defensive about where situations and decisions are less than ideal. Like you, I think the skidding turn was a bit of a fumble and the biggest factor that would give me the twitch on reviewing the footage. Combine that uncharacteristic error with the excessive stick grip triggering your flight computer, and these are perfect 'tells' for when a high workload situation is getting close to saturating a pilot's capacity. I can recall exactly such moments myself!
Yeah I've done it a few times (gripping the stick too hard), so I know when I'm freaking myself out a bit! It doesn't help of course, ideally you'd always be super relaxed...
in a landing pattern the crucial parameter is speed : I teach my students to maintain approach speed (stall speed + 30%) until they turn final, then increase for headwind on final if necessary. At correct approach speed, even a poorly coordinated turn will never be deadly. If the student finds himself too high on base leg, using the spoilers allows him to reach final at a correct height, but I will usually advise to close them while turning final, because beginners usually have a hard time controlling all the parameters at the same time.
On the oher hand, if the student is (too) low, then obviously there is no reason to use the spoilers until on final.
I do train the students to turn with the spoilers out, however, but while comfortably high : I'll request that they force the descent at the end of a flight by making alternating turns on an "8" pattern with the spoilers half open... Great exercise for coordinating speed, roll, yaw, descent rate, and security !
When I watched the original video I wasn't worried about the possibility of opening the airbrakes during a turn precipitating a stall, but I did wonder about the wisdom of opening them that low down before levelling up the wings. It was 9 seconds from brakes open to touch down and there was a whole airfield ahead.
Hi I don’t disagree, I could have left them closed until I was level at least- but there wasn’t much runway left, which was exactly why I used them to make sure I got down promptly!
I agree
Agree not with higher workload with low experience but otherwise, as long as you fully understand effects, they are just another set of controls available to the pilot. I think another important factor is to ensure all instructors teach the same at your club so that all students get common (and hopefully best practice) instruction.
Agreed! Cheers
Here in France I was taught in general to start opening the air brakes approximately halfway into the base leg, during the turn onto final and adjust them as necessary on final. That is of course dependent on your height at start of base, but the norm was as described. I once took an english glider pilot up for a flight and he was shocked to see me open the brakes on base, during the turn etc. Not sure how you are taught in England?
Dunno, I'm in New Zealand! What I teach is to use the brakes when necessary, usually on finals, but you can use them on base or even downwind if needed.
Hello brother next month I start my training in uk what are the common things i need to know or studies
You don't need to know much to get started, your instructors will take you through everything! You could also grab a good book or two, or start reading through the training syllabus for your country. Cheers!
I fully agree with the summary. Not extending the airbrake in the turn is taught in basic training so that beginners don't hit the safety margins when they can't yet deal with the changing load and the change in pitch. And later it doesn't matter where you extend it, because then you can fly and you're not flying at the limit when you do the yellow triangle. And in your flight the speed was way above the yellow triangle. So everything was good.
The test was great in terms of the idea, but unfortunately not comparable.
The angle of the test was much flatter. I estimate about 30° to about 50° at the landing. And the string blew outwards during the test (i.e. stable flight attitude) and blew inwards quite heavily during the landing (this is also a bad habit of mine, that when the turns are too low - after rope break exercises etc - I want to "push" the plane faster around with the rudder, but we all know that this is counterproductive).
I guess if you had produced that flight situation (and it's not that easy to deliberately fly a turn with the string blowing inwards so hard), I guess the Ventus 2ct (? - I fly a Ventus 2c, but my instrument panel looks a bit different, it has a step) would have stalled in the 51-55 kts range.
I must emphasise that an open error culture, which you exemplify like no other, is a fundamental part of flight safety.
I have also published some of my flight safety talks given at our club on my channel (unfortunately only in German).
Hi thanks Arnulf, good points!
I love the format of the video, use this pace more (a bit of chatting, a bit of flying, a bit of stunning landscapes, a bit of music, a bit of hands off flying, show these machines are stable platforms.. nice).
Another reason why I remember being taught to avoid to use the airbrakes in a turn (unrelated with this specific case) is to avoid the potential build up of a bad post-solo habit.
The bad habit being: to fly a crammed, very close-to-the-airfield downwind leg, and then fly a "descending elongated U turn with airbrakes out" as a base+final to lose the inevitable extra height you would end up having; thus losing the value of flying the very important base leg.
Apparently there's a tendency to do so if you get too "affectionate" to the airbrakes early in your pilot life.
I thought it might be worth mentioning it in a comment.
Last thing :) .. the comment on the video about the "next page" button made me amused a bit... no wonder you were gripping the stick, and probably the breaks' handle, pretty tight in that turn eh? 🙂
Thanks Bruno, yeah I grip the stick weird over the top of the buttons anyway, so if I grip it tight it pushes the buttons. It's like a built in stress-o-meter!
@@PureGlide that's an idea for a piece of avionics: a stress-o-meter that talks to the pilot.
"It looks like you're under stress, pull over and take a nap" 😅
lol that would be handy!
Before watching the video I’m going to say “I wouldn’t if I were making any landing preparation turns with limited energy” only because I want to be super careful about stalling the inside wing. Let’s see how I do, I’m a glider pilot but I’m always learning. Great video, kinda what I thought in that airbrakes don’t change the stall speed so much (unlike flaps) The last video of your low level banking while you were squaring into final was a real sphincter workout. 😢Since I mention flaps, I’ve never flown a glider with them, do any modern gliders have flaps or crow-braking?🧐
Hi yeah most modern gliders have flaps. Most of the glider development focuses on the highest performance gliders, which means flaps. There are classes of non-flapped gliders too, but new models aren't created as often.
@@PureGlide Thank you 😊
Thanks for testing. But for me, as a beginner flying training gliders with much larger airbrakes, pulling them out might be a (much?) bigger difference in stall speed than your performance optimized glider. Wish I was allowed spin tests on my own, guess I have to take some fat FI with me for that. :-D
Yes that’s a point I should have made: every glider is different, and will behave differently!
You might have a look at you POH. Usually it states the stall speeds with and without speedbrakes
I'm still a low-hour pilot, solo but not licensed yet. This still freaks me out! I do not dare turn with the brakes out when i'm in the pattern.
My glider stalls at 72km/h, my approach speed according to the POH is about 96km/h and I usually fly faster the lower I get. I just can't get comfortable with it. I guess it's the vibration or the added noise that gives me stress. This means I close the brakes when I turn, altering my glide path, and thus causing other forms of stress :D
2 weeks ago the wind was really strong (30km/h headwind) and I noticed I was doing 150 km/h on final. Not healthy :o All because I really really don't want to stall it so close to the ground.
I really need to calm down and this video really helps me do it. I'm going to try the same experiment to get comfortable with it (at altitude of course)
Hi sounds like you've got a good attitude, always safer to be a bit too fast when you're learning! As you get more experienced you'll more instinctively know when you're going too slowly. Do practice gentle stalling at higher altitude, so you really get to know the limits of the gliders you're flying, they're all different. And focus on nailing the speed you actually want on landings, all the way down. It all takes practice. Keep it up!
glad you made this video and debunked the myth of airbrake usage in turns. The fear of opening airbrakes in turns has already caused outlanding accidents because the student was approaching to high as it is "forbidden" to use the airbrakes before final. There is so much nonsense out there if it comes to gliding. My personal favorite is still the stupid idea that you need to change your speed if you make a turn with or against the wind. We have at least 30% glide instructors here that would believe such nonsense and teach it to students.
That was a very worthwhile learning experience. Practically applied theory - a true tutorial. One question: is it wise to steer toward other gliders/cars even at the end of your ground roll? My instinct would be "No" but that may be determinant uoon the skill and experience of the pilot in a known craft.
Hi great question, I was thinking of
making a video about it. I’ve had my wheel brake fail a few times so my strategy is:
- land straight
- use the brake early
- only once most energy/momentum has been lost do I turn towards the side of the runway.
- I don’t use the brake after the turn, the energy has already been lost. Worst case if I miss judge it I can use the brake, and if that fails, put a wing down on the ground.
Cheers!
@@PureGlide The other thing I noted about this video, particularly, was the learning experience's strength. The combination of a visual tutorial and real-time demonstration was far better at communicating knowledge and understanding simultaneously. I wonder if you could convert your amazing instructor's experience to doing the same with each section of the training syllabus. The whole launch section for example would be a winner to ab initio's.
do you have your airfield and ridge in some condor2 map? and if yes what is a name?
Hi yes I think it is, try "North Island New Zealand" or Matamata scenery
At 4:27, 4:47 and 6:17, do you recall what your rudder inputs were just before the stall break when there was a slight right deflection of your yaw strings and later when you applied right aileron in the pitch down recovery and a more pronounced deflection of the yaw strings occurred, and if the left slip resulted from aileron yaw, asymmetric drag due to one wing being semi-stalled or right rudder input?
Also, I can think of no regime where applying spoilers in a turn at low end of the LD curve (low airspeed and positive AOA) would be necessary or prudent, and I've seen pilots who overly relied on spoilers ( I prefer to call wing extending fences spoilers) to manage inertia and altitude themselvs at risk by deploying, and not retracting them at low airspeed and increasing AOA, or on a go-around with spoilers extended.
Sailplane pilots may use spoilers in regimes that would be uncommon for powered aircraft, but when flying a light aircraft, as a rule of thumb, spoilers were something I retracted before reaching about 1.5 VSO and before reaching 1000ft AGL. I also checked to see they were stowed when entering the pattern and on final approach, during go-around and before take-off.
Hi the rudder would have been pretty balanced for the turn if I was in one, so those stalls in a turn, the wing drops were caused by one wing stalling a bit before the other. Cheers!
@@PureGlide Thanks. What I was wondering about was the Yaw (side-slip) after stall break and the left wing dropped you applied a lot of right aileron, and the Yaw string deflected quite to the right indicating left-slip (into the low wing), and I wondered if that was do to right rudder input or right aileron? Applying as much right aileron as you did to raise the left wing without a lot of right rudder, I would expected a lot of adverse aileron yaw the to the left instead of the right as happened?
I don't think I added any rudder before rolling flat, the yaw that happens is adverse yaw from the wings. I put the stick forward to get flying again, and then straighten up, and I would use the rudder coordinated with the ailerons when I roll flat again.
As others pointed out every glider is different but it is interesting that the CS (FAR)-22 is not super clear what is the allowable difference in stalling speed with or without airbrakes. I infer from cs-22.29 that it is 5 km/h. My problem is that when you open the airbrake the angle of attack on the wing has to increase and it takes time, therefore, the glider picks up some extra sink rate compared to the steady-state and that means the angle of attack overshoots a bit. This overshoot can be a problem. I admit you have to open the airbrake super quick to make it noticeable but low turn combined with usual sideslip+fatigue at the end of the day+shorter strip than expected + confidence in airbrake. I am certainly guilty of these and had no issue but I tend to lower my confidence in airbrake during turns.
The best idea is to test it out at altitude! Cheers
I'll have to try this out with spoilers as opposed to airbrakes. The difference should/will be a bit larger. Potentially there's more danger doing this in a Ka8 (if you don't watch your speed). I have found I complete spoilers open turns more often in powered - particularly when descending from overhead.
Wait what's the difference between airbrakes and spoilers? I use the terms interchangeably... our Purchacz has "speed limiting airbrakes" i.e. you can dive with them completely vertical and not exceed VNE, and some gliders have trailing edge flap brakes, but that's all I know :)
@@PureGlide Generally in the gliding world the terms are used interchangeably, but technically they do serve slightly different purposes. On most modern gliders it's airbrakes - they travel vertically and disrupt the air flow (effectively 'braking'). Spoilers operate at an angle which redirects the airflow upwards reducing lift and increasing drag slightly. Not sure about the purchacz - haven't seen one!
@@PureGlide very few gliders have speed limiting airbrakes. most are effectively "spoilers" but the terms get used interchangeability.
@@PureGlide Just found this nice BGA document on them - members.gliding.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/sites/3/2017/08/2-11-AIRBRAKES-_-SPOILERS-2017.pdf
My FI with 6500 h tells me about a time he went to Poland not so long ago, and flew in a Puchacz with a local instructor. He had his brakes open while turning in to the base. This caused the local instructor to start yelling about the brakes from the back seat. In his view it's safe to use the brakes in a turn in all the various types he has flown, but that one should be aware of that they can have an effect. I tend to ease the brakes a little bit while making turns on the pattern, but never close them completely. We have a Puchacz as a trainer, I've healthy respect for it as I know how many have spun in. But I don't think that it presents any risk in it either.
Hi yeah we have 2 Puchaczes, for those who don't know they have massive speed limiting airbrakes top and bottom. But generally the advice is the same, as long as your speed is up a bit, it's perfectly safe to use brakes as appropriate. It's also very easy to fly them just near the stall, thanks to the massive wings, maybe that's one reason people get into trouble?! They certainly spin well too.
Pooches certainly spin nicely. Did all my training in ASK21s and pooches. With my hefty 100kg in the front seat, neither I nor any of my instructors could induce the K21s to anything remotely resembling a spin. The pooch, however, was always very happy to oblige.
Interesting review, thanks for sharing! I mentioned as well the use of airbrakes in your last video on a low altitude and in a turn. Here in Europe, (fatal) accidents usually occur during the final turn, flying with several in a thermal and during the first part of the winch take-off. During the landing, cause number 1 is to turn at a low altitude and give extra rudder in order to line up with the runway in a sliding turn. Speed is the keyword here as you understand of course (which was clearly high enough) but during that film of that particular landing, the workload seemed already quite high.The effect of the air brakes in a turn is indeed not high as you've shown with this video (although it did sink at 6.21 which you called "a moment") but with a number of factors taken into account, "that moment" could be just the decisive act for a crash. Here in France it's in any case strongly discouraged... and your last remark in this video should be ignored by young or inexperienced pilots in my opinion. It's solely your conclusion Tim, many accident reports and the pilot manual regarding this stating different (quote):
... "but the slight increase in stall speed as the airbrakes are opened is not really a factor. It's more the result of years of accident reports where the narrative says something like "I turned onto final approach and opened the airbrakes . . . by the time I realised that I was undershooting and shut the brakes, the glider was too low to reach the airfield".
I'm not here to point my finger (if it might sound like that, I'm sorry) but gradually deviating from basic flight rules is just not the best direction. And I would love to see more videos from you in the future;-)). Cheers.
Good to think you have a good time at pawai
Yeah it was good! Cheers
Anyone know the beat starting at the 2.20 minute mark? Shazam can’t help me on that one for some reason
Shoot I can't remember, it's from Epidemic sound if that helps. I'd have to track down the original editing files to find it.
It would be very interesting to see the difference while doing more steep turns (45 degrees, maybe even 60 degrees). As we know stall speed increases with bank angle, and I think then airbrakes may have higher impact on a stall speed. Can someone do such experiment? Best would be in some kind of training glider, with big airbrakes that open on both sides (up and down) of the wing.
Yeah good idea! Maybe I'll do it as part of a future flight
I was trained to use airbrakes starting on downwind leg as needed, ideally half open, and keep them open throughout the traffic pattern, including downwind to base turn and base to final turn, modulating them as needed for the correct altitude. I was trained to use best L/D speed plus 1/2 wind gust factor as my approach speed in the traffic pattern, and keep the airspeed constant throughout the pattern. This will usually give you a 15 to 20kt margin over your stall speed, which puts you well out of danger of stall/spinning on any of the turns in the traffic pattern, even with full airbrakes open.
- being too slow during the whole thing is the main problem, the couple knots higher stall speed are irrelevant really. a bad or dangerous landing results from a bad approach, especially if the base leg is too short. IMHO its like spin training. What do I need spin training for if the whole point of getting proper training is to AVOID spins, and understanding what exactly happens during stall onset in a turn at max AOA (dropping wing during thermalling, happens often to me, recovery is automatic and muscle memory). But spinning intentionally.. idk whats the point really. ease stick forward, kick low wing up with rudder.
Use of spoilers IMHO should not be treated as something to avoid. I use spoilers sometimes during aerotow when the tow pilot starts a PIO when flying through strong thermals and I need to get rid of the slack fast. I don't fear my spoilers, I use them like an additional limb, and I love them...
But during landing, there is simply no reason to be too slow, and no excuse either. Yellow triangle exists, it is the MIMIMUM airspeed you fly. Turn to final mustn't be sloppy.
3:02 now I'm interested, what was your previous glider?
Hi I had a DG-300, cheers!
I reacted about extending the brakes in a turn. It’s a marginal thing that sometimes make a huge difference, e.g. stalling the left wing or not upon a low approach.
The speed here was high enough to do it safely, i noticed, but why should you? The wings can be covered with insects or dust and don’t perform optimally. Maybe the wings still contain some water. Things happen and I see no reason to add a potentially dangerous factor to the equation. Extend the brakes when level and land a bit further down the strip. Good safe plan, right?
But, the stalling limits were examined in this video, and I should have done that myself. I'm a conservative pilot, sticking to routines because they tend not to get me killed! Once I return to the skies (alas, in a year or two), I’ll have to experiment more. I didn’t expect that out of this discussion. Still, I won't extend my brakes until level.
Yeah good points, and you're right, if you don't need to, why do it? In my original case I was concerned about running out of runway, doing a tailwind landing, and had an aiming point I was aiming at. And I needed the brakes to get to that aiming point, so I used them. Simple as that!
open air brakes in turn is normal, but must be automated habit open brakes and push control to descent to keep speed. Also open them slowly depends on glider /for example open in 200km in L-13 Blanik just can badly surprise- they can just badly jump out/. for example what is a must if you get into spiral /and speed is increase like crazy - can happen in cloud?/, air brakes should be designed dont let glider over max. speed. Also during winch start, if glider have not released a cable and winch car must cable cut, its desired to glide in center of runway with air brakes as well. relatively fast put cable on ground and shortly land with cable
Best proof is to test it in flight, well done. But there are some variables in each flight, like the airplane, wind, landingfield (trees or swirls) or even mental situation. Thats the reason why I teach my students to not open the airbreaks in a turn to final. A accident is always a line of small mistakes and espacially in final we want to avoid every bit that can lead in a stall.
But of course you can take the airbreaks if you are familiar with your airplane and know what possibly can go wrong. I wouldn't teach it anyway.
Fair enough! Cheers
I think you ought to lock that cockpit! CZcams keeps getting in and surprising you 🤣 Ok, I'll see myself out 🥹
😂
I’m guessing your ‘Mt. Doom’ video got taken down for music copyright?
Hi no I pulled it because I forgot to put in some advertising! Thankfully all my music is done through epidemic sound, so I never have that problem
My DPE required a stall during a turn with spoilers, iirc
I generally don't pull open brakes or flaps during a turn. This is more to do with the possibility of a mechanical / asymmetrical opening resulting in unplanned roll than anything else, once deployed use them - focus should be on speed control, aiming point and coordinated well banked turns. I had an asymmetrical flap deployment (in a powered plane) once on downwind. Gets your attention - had I been in the turn to base when I deployed flaps and that occured, I don't want to think how far it would have rolled me at low altititude.
Hi that's one reason we have a 'brakes' test in our pre-landing checks. Very unlikely to get to that stage, but you never know, and you want to know early. Cheers!
Not a glider pilot myself (wish I had the time, love it), but a light aircraft instructor, I teach my students the same thing. Refrain from opening flaps in a turn. I always use the exact thing you’re describing as a reason why.
Having said that, have I ever done it myself? Will I ever do it again?
The answer being:yes.
At certain instances I have, and I may do it again.
But I try to refrain from doing so.
The fact that air brakes or flaps work when running the checklist is not a perfect guarantee the will work the next time you operate them.
Basically it’s a numbers game isn’t it?
With all that said, cudos in a big way to our instructor here on the channel for discussing a matter where people question his actions. And for keeping an open mind about it. Brilliant and a show of very good airmanship!
Us instructors are by no means protected from ever making mistakes.
Happy landings and safe flights!
@@residensetresidenset6930 "With all that said, cudos in a big way to our instructor here on the channel for discussing a matter where people question his actions. And for keeping an open mind about it. Brilliant and a show of very good airmanship!" - I agree completely with that statement!
Thanks people :)
Agreed. Airbrakes are fine in a turn. Much more critical is over use of rudder at slow speed, especially from base leg to finals. Then you are provoking a spin. So a good speed on base and finals is more important than anything else.
Agreed, cheers!
Unnecessarily long rambling post below for the sake of adding my thoughts to the discussion:
I was also trained to use them if necessary in a pattern turn. Generally speaking normal pattern flying is reasonably faster than stall speed. In a Grob 103 (chosen for ease of finding data) you are looking at about a 56 mph dual / 47 mph solo stall speed with full brakes and a minimum recommended approach speed of 65 mph. So for normal operations dual you have a about a 9 mph minimum window to avoid problems in a turn and solo bringing that to a much safer 18mph window. The best L/D solo is 58 mph and Dual 69mph, so even if you are hurting for altitude and trying to milk your L/D back to the field you are better than 10mph difference. That said, bank angle matters and if you are stressing and cranking that thing around to make the field all of this goes out of the window. For me the only safe time to crank over a glider is under two conditions, tow rope break above decision height (plenty of airspeed to make that turn) or with sufficient altitude to recover from a stall/ spin (Don't try catching that tight thermal at 1000'.)
For me that boils down to; in normal operations there is a sufficient enough window to use brakes in a turn so long as you are mindful of the wind conditions and adjusting your approach speed to accommodate those conditions, fly coordinated, and keep that bank angle less fighter pilot like. That said only you know what your comfort level is as far as keeping your airspeed in a certain range under these conditions, if a 9 mph window is insufficient for your comfort then don't use them dual, but maybe 18 mph feels easily manageable. In the event you are under stress or otherwise impaired you do run the risk of mismanaging your airspeed sufficiently enough to stall/ spin.. The risk of a stall/ spin in the pattern always exists and is technically worsened with the addition of brakes. So in short, make it a habit not to put yourself in those situations, but if you are on top of things the risk of an issue is relatively low.
Anybody that read through my mess of words see things differently?
Hey don't apologise for the long rambling post, people love it!
How are you flying in winter the thermals must be weak?
I’m I paraglider pilot and decent thermic flights in winter are near impossible…. Unless you’re a pro (in southern Australia that is…)people up north have more luck..
Hi the trick is to take months to make the videos :) also we have a ridge, so we can ridge fly in winter. Cheers!
Vital on a Libelle to allow for a short landing!
Yeah!
I'd say, it depends on the situation, but for a short landing I'd rather do my turn to final further out and have time to establish a forward slip instead. Full brakes open on a Libelle is a few knots higher stall, not 1 or 2, depending on the serial no. It will be in the manual for the specific Libelle. But be very careful with *full* brakes on a Libelle.
If the wind is quite variable, I'll close them on the turn anyway, even if it means a longer landing, as it's safest to keep your options open. Under normal circumstances, the field is good and long.
Safety first. :-)
The think to understand is how much the stall speed increases with bank angle for any given configuration (flap/spoilers)
30º bank ( 1.15g) increase about 7%
45º bank (1.4g) increases about 19%
EVERY glider pilot should know that in a 45º bank (a very common bank angle for soaring) stall speed goes up about 20%. That value is easy to calculate in your head and allows the pilot to determine the adjusted stall and minimum sink speeds for bank angle.
Some gliders are designed to run out of elevator before reaching stall in steep turns - leading guys like Tom Knauff advocating for 45º bank turns in the pattern as a kind of built-in stall protection. I’m not such a big fan of that, as much as maintaining proper speed in the first place.
I teach deploying ½ spoilers turning base and if everything is perfect, you won’t need to change from there til landing. Adjust as necessary for glide slope and speed, viewing altitude and speed as a total energy equation with spoilers and slips being your way to control the energy dissipation rate.
Thanks Bill, good points
No. sorry, you're wrong. Bank is so, so often misunderstood. The angle of bank has NOTHING to do with stall speed whatsoever. Stall speed is only proportional to the angle of ATTACK. You can roll 90 degrees and apply no angle of attack and your stall speed will actually go DOWN. Only by applying an increase in the angle of attack during a turn ie to hold one's altitude or to tighten the turn does one actually increase the stall speed. This is true regardless of spoiler position although obviously the spoilers inherently shift the stall speed up.
@@Pletharoe do you somehow not increase your g load when turning?
@@BillPalmer In a sustained turn that's correct but it's not a product of angle of bank, it's angle of attack. Thusly in a 40 degrees bank and reaching stall simply unloading and reducing the angle of attack will immediately destall the wing, but you'll still have 40 degrees of bank. That's why it's so important to teach bank angle with respect to angle of attack as many students will attempt to level the wings during a stall before reducing angle of attack as they have been taught incorrectly which is the danger zone for getting into a spin. I'm not arguing the math more the phrasing.
I've been told off for closing them and opening them on the turn to final, so idk what I'm supposed to do lmao
Make sure you're not near stall speed, and you can do whatever you want! Follow your instructors advice, I can't give instruction remotely over the internet :)
It's perfectly normal and okay to use your airbrakes during turns. To everyone else, It is not about what people recommend but about understanding how the wing behaves with the airbrakes deployed independently and in a turn, and how the two together affect the wing in flight. Then you'll know when it's safe to do so and when it isn't. As Tim correctly demonstrated, airbrakes increase the stall speed slightly, but when you have plenty of margin on final, you should not be worried about stalling (but still cautious and aware of your speed management). The same can be said about skidding in a turn. It is not good practice, and you should be coordinated, or slightly in a slip since it is the safer of the two, but if you are going fast, your inside wing is not going to stall if you are slightly skidding. Just like you didn't in your slight skid to final. Turns increase your stall speed because you increase your g-loading. Your elevator is having to create more downforce which in turn increases the main wing's supported load, and effectively the angle of attack. This alone increases your stall speed and there are plenty of charts out there to see the mathematical relation. Airbrakes increase airflow separation, and drag around the section they cover, and therefore increase your stall speed slightly. All that aside, you should fly your approaches on the faster side, coordinated, and with good potential energy just in case you encounter heavy sink/windshear on your approach if forecasted (or not). Thanks for the vid and always a pleasure and learning experience watching your videos, Tim!
Thanks, we’ll said!
I agree with everyone of Your points. I have been flying since 1974 and except outlandings I usually add plenty of airspeed in the pattern nowadays. Wind shear is the killer in these situations, other considerations are really moot in comparison. I have friends that have strong opinions on the spoiler issue that I mostly disagree with. Here in Europe many instructors teach 90 90 and no spoilers in turns. As long as the spoilers are of the usual design there is no problem what so ever keeping the spoilers unlocked in the pattern as long as airspeed is adequate. Also helps remembering extending the gear in a timely fashion... My preferred pattern especially at small grass fields is nowadays the J type pattern, it gives much better situational awareness, for me it is easier to focus on field. At larger controlled airports it is always safest to follow the 90 90 pattern since other pilots expect it and the controller demanding it. No problem, it is easier to do. Was in a sort of interesting situation yesterday landing a motor glider at ESNU which is a fairly intensely trafficked commercial airport when the controller reported 15 knots tailwind at final and 6 knots headwind on the ground. We refused changing runway direction and landing was no problem. If we would have changed we would have lost 15+6 knots in a very limited altitude span... airspeed is king in those situations. Remember that that was good advice for the 737 before us but not for our small motorglider...
One thing you didn't mention is speed control. Lets say you set up the speed, with some brakes out, before turning finals, with sufficient speed. You now make the turn. Speed control, etc, is set up.
If you shut the breaks, you need to control the speed with a ptich up, make the turn, pitch down/open breaks. The work load and requirements to control the speed has become higher.
The opposite, where you have the brakes set doesn't mean you don't monitor the speed. The critical part in my view, is you need to check your speed.
A counter argument, is with brakes being so powerfull, you use them as a vertical positioning method before you turn finals. Then turn finals with no brakes, then use the brakes on finals.
Great points, cheers!
@@PureGlide Thanks. My last check I was critiqued for the brakes open, but because my speed control was good, not an issue. It was also how I was taught. But it got me thinking which is correct, and what are the issues. Your comment on higher stall speed is correct and that hadn't occured to me.
So I've not come to a definitive decision bar the key point of monitoring your speed being crucial.
I'd argue what really matters is that you're aware of how your glider behaves, and you use the air brakes as needed. And that you don't spin into the ground :)
I always used the spoiler to manage sink, not speed.
Question:
Why two yaw strings?
Here you go! Two Yaw Strings? That's Crazy!
czcams.com/video/OR9zJwcGxoQ/video.html
@@PureGlide hmmm makes sense. Might bring up the idea of two for my club’s gliders
my teaching was "never, never, never,.....but never say never"
from your flight test, & known data / facts
+ 1-2 knots for your glider airbrakes out stall, using our Grob I found + 2-3 knots.
- airbrakes can change the trim / attitude , depends on the A/C.
clearly you had good speed on , and you're a better than average pilot, by some way.
for the average pilot they may be struggling with a high workload, having made a mess of the circuit / approach in some way.
Risks : ( Threat Error Management - TEM )
they are tired after a long flight
they are mentally "beating themselves up" as they have got into a high workload situation, not the nice clean circuit they hoped to do. They may be landing in a paddock when they were at 4000ft 20 minutes ago.
they may let the nose rise in the final turn
they may be in a glider where the airbrakes change the trim, more nose up of down
so why would you increase the risks in the final turn?
Now when to use airbrakes in the final turn. ( the "never say never" bit.. )
If you have got yourself into an approach into a small field that you are going to hit a wall at the far end....
1 - Fully open the airbrakes on the Base leg
2 - Check your speed and trim
3 - Complete your turn onto final without making any change to the airbrake setting, so no change to stall speed or trim during the turn.
4 - level the wings and check your speed / attitude trim / glide slope
if you need to close the brakes now, you didn't need then in the final turn. I have seen people do this just to have a shorter walk back up the airfield.
my opinion of course, but trying to teach pilots not to erode margins.
Cheers for the comment!
Better than talking or theorizing, demo it! Thanks.
Glad you liked it!
Hi .. my name is Roy Docherty , I fly at Temora Au. I want to thank u for your excellent training videos. Truly very useful. I have watched every one I can find.. well done..
You are very welcome, glad you like them! Cheers
Your first stall was incorrect: you moved aileron to the right too soon, you should have corrected it with rudder only!
Probably true! It's so easy
The most counterintuitive thing is to move stick towards wing which dropped (or keep it neutral at least), and rudder in the other direction. Otherwise you may stall more the wing which dropped. But modern gliders are very safe, so even if you get into insipient spin, just by releasing the stick pressure the glider comes out immediately @@PureGlide
Seems like a very obvious outcome since it all depends on your airspeed going in the turn.
The wing needs airspeed
A banking increases your stall speed,
B flaps slow you down but reduce your stall speed a bit
C banking slows you down
D braking slows you down even more
IF
A*B*C*D
>
VS1
THEN
GTG
And the higher you are , the safer you can try it
Each time you stalled you picked the wing up with Aileron. Re visit your video. This is wrong. You should have used aggressive rudder.
Yeah I did a bit, that'll help go into a spin in many aircraft as seen in the latest video put out. Stick forward is the critical thing to un-stall the wing. That would be a good topic for a video in itself. Cheers
You didn’t skid with spoilers, also when wing is drop try to lift with just aileron…. Some gliders don’t liked