@@PureGlide I've never glided and probably never will but I second the previous commenter. Fabulous hobby, relaxing to watch and informative to boot. Cheers!
@@archangel9114 it's only too late to start anything once you are horizontal in your long wooden box. Go on, give it s go. I'm assured that it's great fun, and you don't need to be 'fighting fit'.
Tim, good on you for being so open. However, I think you could have analysed it another way. The hazard is that the ailerons may freeze; amongst the risks (there are others) are then that you may find yourself in a position where - having continued to fly into the mountains - you cannot turn away from rising terrain and are possibly in a poor position to bale out. While your water tanks may have emptied, there's no guarantee that the water which had leaked aft of them was now all gone. Given this, I feel you would have been better to descent below freezing level and go home. You had a probable solution, but aileron control is a 100% goal. But again, good on you for opening up to others' opinions.
Yeah I agree. I think I would have stayed below freezing level for a good hour or so then consider landing. Not sure of the geography, but better to land out than crash coming home. I like to have my control surfaces under control! As it turned out your gamble paid off, but did you need to take that chance? Looking deeper into your self analysis, I’d be asking myself why had I not fixed the fault before flying? And why did I fill up when I knew about the leak and the weather conditions? Thanks for the great videos - I make these comments in a spirit of learning, not criticism.
@@davehope5330 Hi yes and I certainly considered just landing straight away incase anything got worse. Possibly should have. The downside of landing right there was it was a remote landing strip on the other side of the mountain range, so tricky to get to. I guess another option would have been to motor back under freezing level to ensure it couldn't get worse. The way back home had multiple airports along the way to land at if needed. As for fixing the leaking water tank fault before flying, it needed a boroscope camera to find the fault and then a workshop to fix it. It still hasn't been done and will be booked in later this year. Not a quick fix unfortunately. As for why did I fill with water with the weather forecast? Well I suspect I didn't know the weather forecast when I filled the glider with water, and then didn't think about the possible consequences once I had seen the forecast. Lesson learned! Thanks for your comments, always good to discuss.
Thank you so much for sharing this story and your decision-making process. I had the same reaction as this viewer. My thought was to land as soon as is safe to do so and then trailer the glider home. Anytime there is a compromise of flight controls, I would want to get back on the ground, but without rushing so that I don't create another problem as a result of rushing my decisions. But obviously, your plan worked out well, so I am not criticizing, just observing. Thanks again!
@@JackieB12003 Yes probably more sensible than what I did :) I did have the option anytime to descend to ensure things don't get worse and multiple airports on the way home, so felt it was perfectly safe to continue.
An electronic valve would be easier to make water tight but I guess expansion may happen to a point when at high altitude also causing problems. But you'd think it wasn't that hard to make a watertight seal considering they can do it with oxy tank at 1800psi
@@DanielSan-ch7dr Yeah how hard could it be! Although you wouldn't want electronics in the wing, that means cables and connectors etc. We pull the wings off often, and everything automatically connects at present. Actually that problem is solved by a bit of vaseline. This actual leak in my wing was a different issue :)
@@PureGlide Actually, AS have used electric controlled dump valves on ASW-24 and I believe the -22 as well. -24 has automatic control hookup including the water ballast, but connectors rusting can and has caused asymmetric dumping, though. I recall reading that they've implemented it in the -33 again. That said, ball valves are just that much simpler. I wonder why that isn't the default for mechanical or electric valve design..
Thanks Tim. Requires a true man to admit one’s mistakes and reveal your imperfection. You never know if you may have saved someone else’s life in the future.
As a solo glider pilot in the Netherlands, I'm amazed at how high you guys can fly! I've never been higher than approximately 1650 meters(like 6000 ft). The highest I've heard anyone at my club get was about 3 km (9000 ft).
I was flying a Bellanca Decathlon over a desert or thirst land in Africa. Wooden wings and ailerons. At at about 8000 feet the ailerons became sticky and a bit difficult to move. The aircraft had no thermometer of any sort and it was a warm day with scattered cumulus puffs. So I descended slowly to see potential landing spots better. A few minutes later and the ailerons freed up. I decided to stay there because I was much closer to destination than home. Was en route to pick up researcher to find Wild Dogs with radio - GPS collars. Being a qualified aircraft maintenance engineer since starting in 1973, and glider pilot since '77, I inspected the aircraft after a happy, incident free landing. No problems found. So I did a few hours of low level research flying and all was normal. I dropped off successful researcher and flew home. Being nice n cool at altitude I went up to 10000 feet or so on way home. Tops of cumulus had perfect circle rainbows on them when close, so I was photographing them. And enjoying. If you line up the suns rays ray's with cloud top and aircraft on same line, then look to where the rays touch clouds and you'll see a full circle rainbow with a shadow of the aircraft in the middle. Then, same problem occured. So memory speaks and I descend a couple thousand feet. Quickly the ailerons free up. So I had about another hour to think about it on way home. After landing I checked ailerons again very carefully and found that the left aileron had minimal clearance between inner wing rib and the aileron. The paint was freshly scuffed despite a couple millimeters gap. Next day I rectified that problem. I was not the one who had previously rebuilt the plane. Otherwise I might have guessed sooner. So, the outcome was that the wooden parts had absorbed water from rain leaking through hangar roof to create swelling in the aileron trailing edge. The below zero temperature caused the wood to swell further and start sticking against the inner left wing rib next to inner edge of aileron rib corner where fabric folds had built up too much thickness.
Beautiful scenery! I've only been up in a glider once on holiday to NZ almost 20 years ago. It was in the Nelson Lakes area and the club members took us up for a quick ride. Not sure how I ran across your videos, but it made me realize it has been far too long since I had been to NZ or back up in a glider!
@@PureGlide It certainly has. I've even been looking into local flying clubs here in New England. Just watched your Mt. Cook video. Another great one. Thanks for sharing.
So this guy (poster, not pilot) is a dude who comments on other's videos. And does that very well. Thank you, I expected to hate this, but have watched several. The commenting guy is an awesome pilot. Thanks!
I know that phone... fer realls, thanks youtube. This guy/dude (pilot, not poster) had a hot downwind landing that ended the career of his glider if I am not mistaken, when he was new. Thanks pilot dude for not giving up after nearly dying :-), for reals. I like your attitude and you own it. Now.
Interesting video! If you want my two cents I think you made all the right decisions. I liked how you got lower and dumped the water so you had yourself in a safe position first then made a decision on whether to continue or not. (I drive 737’s and was making all these sorts of decisions in the simulator on the weekend 😁) thanks for sharing.
I've flown a H/G to 6500ft in the UK, and thermalled a cessna 152 at 1500fpm in Kenya, but I would love to have a go at that, in that environment. Thanks for the show.
Hello, thank you very much for all your amazing videos, where also every glider pilot can learn a lot, I just wanted to mention that it maybe would also be beneficial to check the affected control rods for corosion due to the water leak, Schempp-Hirth has issued a Technical Note (349-42 Rev.4 - Inspection of the flaperon control in the wings) affecting the Ventus 2 gliders, where severe corosion was found at the flaperon bellcrank actuation the innermost flaperon. Thanks a lot
I have Ventus cT and use Vaseline each time before filling in. Noticed that you did not have tape which was major factor for water ingress. Glad that everything end up well.
HI, I like your videos very much. Some of them have been circulating around the gliding community here in Israel as well. As it seems you have some good educational messages in them, I would have liked to see some mention of the hazard of the whole water tank freezing and popping your wing open.... just to warn people where it is relevant (not often in these parts :-) ). Keep it up!
Enjoying your channel, thank you. I've done circa 30 hours over the years but not solo, yet. I'm 55. Well done sorting that out. It's clear that calmness, clear headedness are essential prerequisites for the art of soaring. Was curious about your reference to flying in thermals to 9,000 etc that freezing level was down to 5k that day. Flying in the Southern Alps as you are, how much of your lift is in fact ridge lift, how much is wave and how much is thermal? It looks like it must be wave heaven there by times. Happy soaring whatever!
Hi thanks for watching! This particular day was thermals and convergences only. Often the mountains are high enough to push into the upper winds, there is commonly some sort of wave. But not always, all depends on the weather...
Thanks for sharing for learning purposes. Like you said; your first bad ADM was to put water in tanks when you know you had a leak.! Beyond that everything else was a risk of some sort! As you said, you had land out options, so that was a reasonable ADM response! We’re they within glide at all times? Thanks again for these worthwhile videos. Love seeing such beautiful soaring landscapes.
Scary. You may have heard that here in the States two guys had to bail out of an Arcus when the rudder went hard over and locked. No one knows why. Control issues are the worst.
Yeah - a pilot in NZ wave flying did have the ailerons freeze solid once and nearly had to bail out. Eventually after descending for a while they managed to get it free.
Those "two guys" are none other than Dave Nadler - the guy who helped Flarm come to the USA. He's no rookie to this stuff. His aftermath video is insanely good content to review.
@@PureGlide just a thought - don't use dive brakes/spoilers until a field can be made. My new to me ship had it's SH brakes jam open when the pilot went to test them for landing. In a freezing situation I'd rather find out they don't work than use them and maybe not be in position for the 13kts of sink they produce lol just a suggestion. This is Sailing the Sky. I'm lazy and don't want to switch accounts lol
I’m in no position to give advice (or criticize your decisions), because what do I know? I know only of Paragliding and you certainly DON’T put water ballast in those!! I’m just glad you were able to stop the incident from becoming an accident, and made it home safely! 👍 😀
If you know precisely where in relation to the water valves the leak is, try banking such that the leak is above the vents. Then the leak might turn into an inlet for the air replacing the water, provided the tanks aren't pressurized to vent the water.
And thanks to the pilot of this video for sharing his massive dump. As of now a little bit is still coming out, but it feels good. Except those chunky bits of ice.
I was flying a PA28R @ 15,000' with a pilot friend about 15 years ago - we were up there for about 45 minutes before descending. We dropped down through a moderately thick layer of stratocumulus sitting at about 7,000'. A few seconds after exiting the base, I noticed I was having to hold the yoke about 45 degrees to the right to keep the wings level. I asked the other guy to take the controls and make sure I wasn't imagining things. We both suspected a control issue so glide descended down to the field and landed uneventfully (we flew the approach at 90 knots and cut the power over the numbers, we had the luxury of a LONG runway!). I had to hold in the aileron all the way down. After parking up, I went to grab the engineer when my friend said, "Oh crap..." He was looking under the left wing and it had some fairly moderate icing on the underside only, but nowhere else. It was significant enough that it was pretty lucky that the undercarriage managed to drop successfully. We scratched our heads for a while before the penny dropped... It was about an hour prior to sunset when we were at 15,000' flying South. We theorised that the Sun had maintained a skin temperature above, say, 4-5 degrees (c) on the majority of the airframe (the underside of the starboard wing was still presented to the sun due to its dihedral and the low angle of the sun). The underside of the port wing, however, was allowed to cool through radiation to and conduction from the cold air at altitude. Passing through the layer of SC @ 7,000', we must have flown through some mild (but sustained) rain or virga, which simply ran off all parts of the airframe except the underside of the port wing, where it cooled and adhered as ice creating a moderate lateral weight inbalance. This was only our best theory - if anybody reading this has any other ideas, please share them. But I felt compelled to mention it as if it's true, it was a classic 'Swiss cheese' model of many small (and rare) factors adding up to greater than the sum of their parts. Had the ice build up become significant, it could very well have led into unrecoverable spin territory...! Fly safe all :)
Maybe you had much more fuel in the port wing tank which subcooled and served as coold reservoir saving enough energy to freeze the rain on the outside. That's a common reason why you sometimes see airliners wings even in tropical areas being deiced. They come from -60C and go down to very moist air! Regards and stay safe
@Mel Buh Yeah, we thought about the fuel thing, but we were pretty good at switching tanks regularly and evenly! I've literally never experienced anything like it before or since. And yeah I've heard about that! Fly safe
Water freezes at exactly the same air temperature regardless of wind velocity. Heat transfer inherently requires a temperature delta between heat source and heat sink. The RATE of heat transfer increases as wind increases, but the rate will trend to zero with time as the system trends toward equilibrium as delta T trends to zero. If ambient air temperature is below freezing, then flying fast will cause the water to cool down to the freezing temperature more quickly than flying slowly but not by much. If ambient air temperature is at or above freezing, then no matter how fast you fly the water will not freeze, even if the "wind chill" was significantly below freezing. Wind chill is like a temperature analogy not a physical property. You'll feel much colder at 1C with 100km/h wind than you will at -0.1C with zero wind. But despite feeling colder ice will not form.
I don't think that helps on gliders, the hinges are internal in the wing for a start, also you don't fill the wings of a Cessna with water very often :)
I've heard of this (and airbrakes freezing - always a good idea to pop them open on the downwind leg to check) but it's the first time to see a problem on camera associated with a frozen glider control. Very interesting/informative : I hadn't appreciate that brand had such a reputation. Are you intending to try and fix that leak in the off season ? Would make for another interesting follow up vlog. By the way that water at 6:28 is an amazing colour !!!
It's awesome water colour eh! That's glacial water. And yes we'll be fixing the leak after the contests have finished. We don't often need lots of ballast, and my glider is already heavy so it hasn't been a big problem this season. I probably will make a short video about the water leak issue, good idea.
Sorry mate that was an own goal ! Ive always checked for water in airbrake boxes etc, would never fly with leaking tanks. I always put a smear of vaseline around the airbrakes and onto the valves if the air is cold to stop seizing, and to seal the valve. I also open the brakes on entering the pattern. Glad it didnt need you to use the parachute !
I am curious, what was your thought process regarding the risk that there might have been enough water trapped in the space behind the tanks to refreeze the controls even if the tanks were empty?
Hi my main thought was I can fly home under the freezing level to stop it getting worse. Although I had to get over those mountains first! If it was getting worse I would have taken more action like descent or land somewhere, there were a number of airports on the way home
First wrong choice - flying with water in freezing temperatures at all (at least without antifreeze) In my opinion although you did good by checking if both wings dropped the water - did you think about your CG correcting tail water Tank? If that one didn’t dump properly you would have been flying a tailheavy plane - a great way to put you in a deadly spin! Maybe you did - in a case like this you should alway fly way over your stall speed especially while thermaling to prevent the spin in a tailheavy glider.
Hi yes agreed, wrong choice to fly with water and a leak in freezing temps. I generally don't use the tail tank, obviously not an option when close to freezing as it's a much smaller body of water to freeze. In my case my glider is tail heavy anyway, so don't usually add tail water, and I'm not adding that much ballast water anyway.
I don’t fly with water unless I add alcohol when freezing is possible. You never know when you need to drop water. It may be frozen. I also landed with full water in 1 wing and empty 8n the other and didn’t notice it at all. Not preferable but no big deal.
First, thanks for your videos. At 2:46 you mention that the "...wind chill factor...". I assume you mean that the wind chill factor is making your situation with the water leak worse - freezing faster/harder/quicker. Probably not. A wind chill below 0C does not cause liquids to freeze if the actual ambient temperature is above 0C.
Excellent point, thanks! I guess 'wind chill' is actually 'how it feels to a human', not actually changing the temperature? Although I'm assuming it can help cool things to the surrounding temperature faster? e.g. if the water is coming out just above freezing, but the outside temp is -10, the wind will help take the heat energy out of the water faster? Just like sticking your hand out the window, the wind will help dissipate the heat from your finger faster? Does that sound right?
@@PureGlide It does defy login but the answer is no, wind chill doesn't accelerate taking away "heat energy" from inanimate objects. wgntv.com/weather/if-the-temperature-is-above-freezing-but-the-wind-chill-is-below-freezing-will-water-freeze/
@@PureGlide Yep, you are right. My bad. The water will freeze quicker due to wind chill - but by how much? We'd need a physicist to figure that out. I would think that in your flight in below freezing temperatures the water would have froze almost instantly because the leak's drips splashing onto cold metal have a huge surface area per volume (as compared to the water in your bags/tanks). Critically your recognizing the issue, reacted, and then dived to a lower altitude into above freezing temperatures - and got rid of the problematic H2O. Great decision making and a good teaching moment. The move you made melted the ice probably just as quickly as it had formed due to the same wind chill (anti-chill?) factor (lots of assumptions there). The point, I suppose, is that your body can suffer hypothermia at temperatures above freezing due to wind-chill while inanimate objects are not impacted in this way. Thus using the term wind-chill is tricky and can cause confusion to us poor animate humans. Now, GO FIX THAT LEAK! And let us know how you did it! ;-)
I would suggest brushing up on flying the glider with just rudder and elevator so that if that happens again for whatever reason, you're comfortable flying with just the rudder and elevator.
Who would have thought that could happen...I guess some sort of anti freeze is out of the question too expensive to dump it when needed...whatever that reason could be...
You identified a problem with your primary flight controls. Dumped water, assessed the problem to be fixed and chose to continue your flight until the problem reoccured. I think a more prudent decision would have been to "land immediately at the nearest suitable airport" as is quoted in our big aircraft QRH's. You landed safely which of course is a 👍👍👍 however your initial conclusion that the fault was fixed was in hindsight not correct.
Yes you're probably right. Although I wasn't too worried as was able to fly below freezing level on the way home if needed, or land at the various airports on the way home. So probably another mistake was flying a bit too high on the way home which allowed it to get a bit worse...
Fix the leak. Water on your control hardware is not good even above freezing level. You suspected the water would freeze on your control, still flew. Well now that’s some fine judgement .
Don't be silly, I wouldn't fly if I thought the controls were going to freeze. Sure I made the mistake of flying with water and into freezing temperatures, but I didn't put the two together or realise it would be a problem until it was a problem! Yes I'm a dummy for not putting it together earlier, that's the point of the video.
@@PureGlide silly? I hear you in the video during your flight talking about moving the controls because your above freezing level. Thank you for sharing this video, it reinforces the the saying “whatever can go wrong, will go wrong”. I’m glad you learned something from the flight, I did also. Great video, fly safe.
When I was training on the Puchez the air brakes would stay in selected position hands off, but when I changed gliders in training the Grob would retract the air brakes when hands off, I was not briefed, you can guess what happened there, thank heavens for wheel brakes, going over the edge of a cliff is not a good idea.
1:21 That’s all I had to watch for him to acknowledge the fact that he actually did a preflight and knew that there was an issue, but then flew anyway. This is exactly the problem bad aeronautical decision making which starts on the ground
Yeah we all make mistakes. It's a good example of how a tiny problem might seem inconsequential, but then actually is a problem when other factors come into play (i.e. a lower freezing level) . After talking to the glider manufacturer and my glider engineers it's safe to fly without water until we get the leak fixed.
Uh oh.. this title makes me feel a bit uncomfortable. Glad you made it down safely! I would also be a bit worried about the water.. Especially because of what I witnessed on my Cirrus..
Hi subscribe to be notified when we publish a whole video dedicated to that topic. It's counterintuitive, but basically more weight lets the glider fly faster at the same glide ratio. We don't use it every flight, sometimes we want to be lighter instead. Only when conditions are 'strong'. Stay tuned! Cheers
Excellent videos. Keep up the good work. You may get some poor comments on this one from armchair pilots who know nothing about it. Don't be discouraged, this sort of honest discussion is good for the sport. Btw. Why two yaw strings?
Thank you for your support! It's certainly different when you're actually there and can feel/see everything properly, in this case I could feel what the controls were doing quite easily. The video misses much of this of course. Two yaw strings: redundancy and better peripheral vision indication of flying straight. Expect a video about it soon!
Hi, normally it's not an issue, as it takes a long time to freeze a large quantity of water, and we are usually only in the air for a a few hours. It's only a real problem when it leaks out like this. Some do use antifreeze or pure alcohol in their tail tanks (which are a lot smaller).
You'd need a lot! It's usually not a problem as a large amount of water won't freeze quickly. It takes time. This was only a problem because the leak dribbled out, thus was able to freeze.
Hi some use alcohol in the tail tank but most don’t bother with anti freeze in the wings. You’d need a LOT, and luckily it takes a long time to freeze a lot of water.
Imagine a ping pong ball filled with water vs one thats not. Way easier for the one with water to punch through the air and go faster. We then empty the water to land, as that's when you want to be as light as possible. On some days you want to be as heavy as possible for speed, other days as light as possible to climb more easily. So it's good being able to change the weight.
Hi it's unlikely, as I was only just above the freezing level and for a short time, so it was only small quantities of water (like a leak) freezing. The whole large water tank would not be able to freeze in that time. If wave flying at high altitude for long periods this is definitely an issue.
None really, unless it is corrosive in some way. I believe people flying in wave do it. In this case I didn't realise it would be a problem until I was flying!
It is my understanding that glider pilots who fly in wave wave will add alcohol to the water to lower the freezing point. I have heard stories of pilots adding Vodka to their wing water. 😆 Not sure if that's just an urban legend though.
Yes they do that sometimes. The tanks are big, 90L each, and normally have 40 litres or so. In a normal flight at around zero degrees, the tank won't freeze up, it takes too long. If you were doing a wave flight for 10 hours at -20, then yes it can be a problem and anti-freeze would be needed. In this case though the problem was not the bulk of the water wing tank freezing, it was the bit dribbling out, which is much easier to freeze because it's a small amount of water. So if there wasn't a leak, it wouldn't have been a problem. Cheers!
I have a question that might be probably googled within seconds, but don't people seek for human interaction? haha. So: Why dont you mix that water with antifreeze? Neither am I a pilot, nor am I a Chemisist, so I'm sorry if I'm missing something obvious. I am watching tons of videos of flying because it fascinates me, but I dont have the money to do it on my own. The question that I have: Wouldn't it be the easiest solution to add antifreeze to the wing water? Or would it then blurr the borders of decision, when it is safe to climb and when it isn't? I hope you guys get the point of the question, since English education was only transferred to me in school and i hardly ever use it in daily life. Lovely greetings from Germany!
Hi yeah I think some people do sometimes, if they are planning on an extremely long or high altitude flight. But normally the wings full of water won't freeze for a LONG time, simple because it takes time for a mass of water to get down to that temperature. In my case the water leaked, and it was the water being cooled by the external air. If it hadn't leaked, it wouldn't have been a problem.
We have a wheel brake, critical so landing in a field you can pull up to a stop as quickly as possible to reduce the chances of hitting a hole 🕳️. When we land we’re about 100km/h so some braking is very useful.
"As a pilot, what would you have done?" Land ASAP, dry off the plane, make sure everything is good - and remain alive. No messing with stuck ailerons...
My question is on a good day with no rain and no leaks can ice still build up on wings or ailerons in freezing temperatures ? Curious if there are conditions that could cause a problem .
Generally planes have this problem as they fly through cloud, while the gliders generally remain clear of cloud. So as long as you’re not flying in cloud there’s no moisture to form up on the wings ☁️
@@PureGlide thank you for your reply I’m trying to learn as much as I can about this sport . I’m taking some lessons and fly a altralight but I got a lot to learn .
@@ipodhty Yeah it is! No idea what they actually use in the gliders, it might be dilluted or something slightly different. But some sort of anti-freeze.
Seems to me you dodged a bullet there, in powered flying that sort of situation is a textbook chain link event that almost always ends in tragedy. The decision to ignore the leak was the start of the chain, it seems to have been quite a non event in actuality, well handled, To even identify the problem is an indication of experience but also evidence of a problem with decision making, that said it seems that in soaring it’s less critical.
It’s always a question when things go wrong as to what to do. Keep in mind in 15 years of flying, being at freezing temps is not normally a problem and it’s normally ever freezing during a thermal flight. So it just didn’t occur to me until it happened!
Yes pilots who fly in wave conditions a lot do that. Not sure of the ratios, the tanks are 180 litres total in some gliders! That would be pretty pricey I suspect...
@@PureGlide In Scotland a full load costs £60 - 100, so the pundits land with it on board and fly with a stick to put under the wing to stop it leaking out. The approach speed obviously has to be much faster.
Yes some do - normally it's not a problem for short periods at around zero, because its such a large mass of water, it takes a long time to freeze it. Of course I wasn't expecting a leak...
Would disagree with your conclusion that you made good decision making, you flew knowing the glider was defective, and didn't land when you knew the controls surfaces became iced. You even said yourself that residual water on the control surfaces was a possibility. You also knew the answer was not to fly with water ballast in cold conditions. If your controls had got stuck fully actuated on one side the result could have been very different. Having said all that I am enjoying watching your videos in the main.
Yeah it's certainly debatable if I should have landed or not - I guess what doesn't come across in the videos is how it feels, and it didn't feel like it was about to freeze solid. Also I could descend at any time below the freezing level and it wouldn't get any worse. I also could have landed at multiple airstrips on the way home if it did get worse. But yes you could argue it would be safest to just land it. The downside is where I was was a LONG way away from any population, a car retrieve would have taken many hours, and I would have been left exposed in the mountains. Not ideal either :)
The problem with this is, you knew you had a tank leak and then flew into known icing conditions even without the leak flying in icing conditions is just foolish especially in an aircraft without ice protection.
Hi yes flying into freezing temperatures with a leak was a mistake, thus the point of the video! However gliders to do fly into freezing temperatures commonly when wave flying. It's common to have outside temperatures of -10 to -30 degrees celsius. The difference is we fly VFR, and not in cloud, so don't have ice forming on the leading edges of the wings.
Who would have thought that could happen...I guess some sort of anti freeze is out of the question too expensive to dump it when needed...whatever that reason could be...
Yeah exactly, generally it's only a problem if it leaks. A big mass of water takes a long time to freeze up, so that's not a problem normally for the length of flights we have.
What a beautiful hobby...really, how anyone can watch this and not want to take part is beyond me. Thanks! Subscribed
Cheers! Pretty awesome isn’t it
You should start? Dont you have a club near your hometown?
@@PureGlide I've never glided and probably never will but I second the previous commenter. Fabulous hobby, relaxing to watch and informative to boot. Cheers!
Yes, this are beautiful aircrafts design to fly for hours with no engine just like birds do . I wish I can do that but I feel I'm too old to start.
@@archangel9114 it's only too late to start anything once you are horizontal in your long wooden box. Go on, give it s go. I'm assured that it's great fun, and you don't need to be 'fighting fit'.
Tim, good on you for being so open. However, I think you could have analysed it another way. The hazard is that the ailerons may freeze; amongst the risks (there are others) are then that you may find yourself in a position where - having continued to fly into the mountains - you cannot turn away from rising terrain and are possibly in a poor position to bale out. While your water tanks may have emptied, there's no guarantee that the water which had leaked aft of them was now all gone. Given this, I feel you would have been better to descent below freezing level and go home. You had a probable solution, but aileron control is a 100% goal. But again, good on you for opening up to others' opinions.
Yes I don’t disagree, the issue was the mountains were between us and home :)
Yeah I agree. I think I would have stayed below freezing level for a good hour or so then consider landing. Not sure of the geography, but better to land out than crash coming home. I like to have my control surfaces under control! As it turned out your gamble paid off, but did you need to take that chance?
Looking deeper into your self analysis, I’d be asking myself why had I not fixed the fault before flying? And why did I fill up when I knew about the leak and the weather conditions?
Thanks for the great videos - I make these comments in a spirit of learning, not criticism.
@@davehope5330 Hi yes and I certainly considered just landing straight away incase anything got worse. Possibly should have. The downside of landing right there was it was a remote landing strip on the other side of the mountain range, so tricky to get to. I guess another option would have been to motor back under freezing level to ensure it couldn't get worse. The way back home had multiple airports along the way to land at if needed. As for fixing the leaking water tank fault before flying, it needed a boroscope camera to find the fault and then a workshop to fix it. It still hasn't been done and will be booked in later this year. Not a quick fix unfortunately. As for why did I fill with water with the weather forecast? Well I suspect I didn't know the weather forecast when I filled the glider with water, and then didn't think about the possible consequences once I had seen the forecast. Lesson learned! Thanks for your comments, always good to discuss.
Thank you so much for sharing this story and your decision-making process. I had the same reaction as this viewer. My thought was to land as soon as is safe to do so and then trailer the glider home. Anytime there is a compromise of flight controls, I would want to get back on the ground, but without rushing so that I don't create another problem as a result of rushing my decisions. But obviously, your plan worked out well, so I am not criticizing, just observing. Thanks again!
@@JackieB12003 Yes probably more sensible than what I did :) I did have the option anytime to descend to ensure things don't get worse and multiple airports on the way home, so felt it was perfectly safe to continue.
Landing a rover on Mars: no problem. Building glider water tanks and valves that do not leak: sorry that's physically impossible.
lol yes!
give me 10 million € and I will develop a not leaking valve and water tank. ;)
An electronic valve would be easier to make water tight but I guess expansion may happen to a point when at high altitude also causing problems. But you'd think it wasn't that hard to make a watertight seal considering they can do it with oxy tank at 1800psi
@@DanielSan-ch7dr Yeah how hard could it be! Although you wouldn't want electronics in the wing, that means cables and connectors etc. We pull the wings off often, and everything automatically connects at present. Actually that problem is solved by a bit of vaseline. This actual leak in my wing was a different issue :)
@@PureGlide Actually, AS have used electric controlled dump valves on ASW-24 and I believe the -22 as well. -24 has automatic control hookup including the water ballast, but connectors rusting can and has caused asymmetric dumping, though. I recall reading that they've implemented it in the -33 again. That said, ball valves are just that much simpler. I wonder why that isn't the default for mechanical or electric valve design..
Thanks Tim. Requires a true man to admit one’s mistakes and reveal your imperfection.
You never know if you may have saved someone else’s life in the future.
Hey thanks! All pilots make mistakes, we shouldn't have any reason not to share them.
As a solo glider pilot in the Netherlands, I'm amazed at how high you guys can fly! I've never been higher than approximately 1650 meters(like 6000 ft). The highest I've heard anyone at my club get was about 3 km (9000 ft).
Yeah it's a whole different ball game in the mountains with wave flying! Highest I've been is 22,000 feet I think. But many go higher than that.
I was flying a Bellanca Decathlon over a desert or thirst land in Africa. Wooden wings and ailerons. At at about 8000 feet the ailerons became sticky and a bit difficult to move. The aircraft had no thermometer of any sort and it was a warm day with scattered cumulus puffs. So I descended slowly to see potential landing spots better. A few minutes later and the ailerons freed up. I decided to stay there because I was much closer to destination than home. Was en route to pick up researcher to find Wild Dogs with radio - GPS collars. Being a qualified aircraft maintenance engineer since starting in 1973, and glider pilot since '77, I inspected the aircraft after a happy, incident free landing. No problems found. So I did a few hours of low level research flying and all was normal. I dropped off successful researcher and flew home. Being nice n cool at altitude I went up to 10000 feet or so on way home. Tops of cumulus had perfect circle rainbows on them when close, so I was photographing them. And enjoying. If you line up the suns rays ray's with cloud top and aircraft on same line, then look to where the rays touch clouds and you'll see a full circle rainbow with a shadow of the aircraft in the middle. Then, same problem occured. So memory speaks and I descend a couple thousand feet. Quickly the ailerons free up. So I had about another hour to think about it on way home. After landing I checked ailerons again very carefully and found that the left aileron had minimal clearance between inner wing rib and the aileron. The paint was freshly scuffed despite a couple millimeters gap. Next day I rectified that problem. I was not the one who had previously rebuilt the plane. Otherwise I might have guessed sooner.
So, the outcome was that the wooden parts had absorbed water from rain leaking through hangar roof to create swelling in the aileron trailing edge. The below zero temperature caused the wood to swell further and start sticking against the inner left wing rib next to inner edge of aileron rib corner where fabric folds had built up too much thickness.
Wow that would be even less expected! Thanks for sharing
36 years ago, as a 12 year old i made a flight in the backseat and ow man, this i will never forget.
It was Awesome.
It really is a magic thing we do :)
@@PureGlide It sure is. :))
Beautiful scenery! I've only been up in a glider once on holiday to NZ almost 20 years ago. It was in the Nelson Lakes area and the club members took us up for a quick ride. Not sure how I ran across your videos, but it made me realize it has been far too long since I had been to NZ or back up in a glider!
Hey thanks for stumbling across the channel! Glad it’s inspiring to get you back :)
@@PureGlide It certainly has. I've even been looking into local flying clubs here in New England. Just watched your Mt. Cook video. Another great one. Thanks for sharing.
So this guy (poster, not pilot) is a dude who comments on other's videos. And does that very well. Thank you, I expected to hate this, but have watched several. The commenting guy is an awesome pilot. Thanks!
Hey thanks man, appreciate it! Only done a couple of 'analysis' videos so far, but will do more, they are very popular.
I know that phone... fer realls, thanks youtube. This guy/dude (pilot, not poster) had a hot downwind landing that ended the career of his glider if I am not mistaken, when he was new. Thanks pilot dude for not giving up after nearly dying :-), for reals. I like your attitude and you own it. Now.
Hi it wasn't me who had the hot downwind landing, that was just a video I analysed!
Interesting video! If you want my two cents I think you made all the right decisions. I liked how you got lower and dumped the water so you had yourself in a safe position first then made a decision on whether to continue or not. (I drive 737’s and was making all these sorts of decisions in the simulator on the weekend 😁) thanks for sharing.
Hey thanks for watching! Cheers
I've flown a H/G to 6500ft in the UK, and thermalled a cessna 152 at 1500fpm in Kenya, but I would love to have a go at that, in that environment. Thanks for the show.
Thanks for watching! Yes try it if you can sometime
Great posture in face to a difficulty situation. Mainly, sending a report. Flight safety!Congrats!
Thanks!
Hello, thank you very much for all your amazing videos, where also every glider pilot can learn a lot, I just wanted to mention that it maybe would also be beneficial to check the affected control rods for corosion due to the water leak, Schempp-Hirth has issued a Technical Note (349-42 Rev.4 - Inspection of the flaperon control in the wings) affecting the Ventus 2 gliders, where severe corosion was found at the flaperon bellcrank actuation the innermost flaperon. Thanks a lot
Yeah we did check that when repainting my glider a few years ago. Cheers!
Nice to see Omarama again from the air. I did some flying out of there in early 2005.
It is an awesome place to fly.
I have Ventus cT and use Vaseline each time before filling in. Noticed that you did not have tape which was major factor for water ingress. Glad that everything end up well.
Yeah I do the same on the bungs, however this leak that caused the freezing was internal
HI, I like your videos very much. Some of them have been circulating around the gliding community here in Israel as well.
As it seems you have some good educational messages in them, I would have liked to see some mention of the hazard of the whole water tank freezing and popping your wing open.... just to warn people where it is relevant (not often in these parts :-) ). Keep it up!
Yes I should have talked about that, maybe in a future video! Cheers
You can turn using the rudder. Remember secondary controls! Taught with the basics when you get your pilots licence.
Yeah absolutely if things did freeze completely that is what to do
If you were taught ice on wings and dead stick is ok because you can use the rudders secondary control I think we have very different basic training.
@@pelleban Ha yes to be clear it's a last resort technique if the ailerons fail for any reason!
I'm fairly certain he is aware, although I'm not certain if/how much rudder is used in a glider during normal flight.
@@nighthawk0077 Just the right amount ;) Not a lot usually.
Enjoying your channel, thank you. I've done circa 30 hours over the years but not solo, yet. I'm 55.
Well done sorting that out. It's clear that calmness, clear headedness are essential prerequisites for the art of soaring.
Was curious about your reference to flying in thermals to 9,000 etc that freezing level was down to 5k that day. Flying in the Southern Alps as you are, how much of your lift is in fact ridge lift, how much is wave and how much is thermal? It looks like it must be wave heaven there by times. Happy soaring whatever!
Hi thanks for watching! This particular day was thermals and convergences only. Often the mountains are high enough to push into the upper winds, there is commonly some sort of wave. But not always, all depends on the weather...
Thanks for sharing for learning purposes. Like you said; your first bad ADM was to put water in tanks when you know you had a leak.! Beyond that everything else was a risk of some sort! As you said, you had land out options, so that was a reasonable ADM response! We’re they within glide at all times? Thanks again for these worthwhile videos. Love seeing such beautiful soaring landscapes.
Hi thanks for watching. Yes always had landings in range, keep in mind at 6000 feet AGL I can glide 73km or so!
Scary. You may have heard that here in the States two guys had to bail out of an Arcus when the rudder went hard over and locked.
No one knows why. Control issues are the worst.
Yeah - a pilot in NZ wave flying did have the ailerons freeze solid once and nearly had to bail out. Eventually after descending for a while they managed to get it free.
Those "two guys" are none other than Dave Nadler - the guy who helped Flarm come to the USA. He's no rookie to this stuff. His aftermath video is insanely good content to review.
@@PureGlide just a thought - don't use dive brakes/spoilers until a field can be made. My new to me ship had it's SH brakes jam open when the pilot went to test them for landing. In a freezing situation I'd rather find out they don't work than use them and maybe not be in position for the 13kts of sink they produce lol just a suggestion. This is Sailing the Sky. I'm lazy and don't want to switch accounts lol
@@TheProPilot Interesting, I would like to see it! Is it online somewhere?
@@TheProPilot Hey yes good advice. In this case I was overhead a good land-able airfield, although that wasn't clear in the video. Cheers!
Love your video. You have amazing life. God has really blessed you
Thank you so much!
I’m in no position to give advice (or criticize your decisions), because what do I know?
I know only of Paragliding and you certainly DON’T put water ballast in those!!
I’m just glad you were able to stop the incident from becoming an accident, and made it home safely! 👍 😀
Hey thanks! Yes it really wasn't TOO close, not ideal, but I had lots of options such as descending or landing at any time.
@@PureGlide If you stay calm and focus on managing the risks, you have the best chance to get home in one piece, and that’s exactly what you did. 👍
If you know precisely where in relation to the water valves the leak is, try banking such that the leak is above the vents. Then the leak might turn into an inlet for the air replacing the water, provided the tanks aren't pressurized to vent the water.
In this case while flying I had no idea where the water leak was. It took an investigation with a borescope to figure it out.
For the footage alone! 💝
Thanks!
I cant belive I found a gilder plane CZcams channel and it has actually good content.
Shocking eh!! Lovely to have you join us
@@PureGlide I cant wait to get in the plain again and your channel hepls to bridge the time.
Just found him too! Also check out bruno vassel
that country is so damn beautiful
Thanks I agree completely!
My god that location is stunning!
Not bad eh!
What a beautiful area to fly!👍
It sure is!
And thanks to the pilot of this video for sharing his massive dump.
As of now a little bit is still coming out, but it feels good.
Except those chunky bits of ice.
Haha wait wat
I was flying a PA28R @ 15,000' with a pilot friend about 15 years ago - we were up there for about 45 minutes before descending. We dropped down through a moderately thick layer of stratocumulus sitting at about 7,000'. A few seconds after exiting the base, I noticed I was having to hold the yoke about 45 degrees to the right to keep the wings level. I asked the other guy to take the controls and make sure I wasn't imagining things. We both suspected a control issue so glide descended down to the field and landed uneventfully (we flew the approach at 90 knots and cut the power over the numbers, we had the luxury of a LONG runway!). I had to hold in the aileron all the way down. After parking up, I went to grab the engineer when my friend said, "Oh crap..." He was looking under the left wing and it had some fairly moderate icing on the underside only, but nowhere else. It was significant enough that it was pretty lucky that the undercarriage managed to drop successfully. We scratched our heads for a while before the penny dropped... It was about an hour prior to sunset when we were at 15,000' flying South. We theorised that the Sun had maintained a skin temperature above, say, 4-5 degrees (c) on the majority of the airframe (the underside of the starboard wing was still presented to the sun due to its dihedral and the low angle of the sun). The underside of the port wing, however, was allowed to cool through radiation to and conduction from the cold air at altitude. Passing through the layer of SC @ 7,000', we must have flown through some mild (but sustained) rain or virga, which simply ran off all parts of the airframe except the underside of the port wing, where it cooled and adhered as ice creating a moderate lateral weight inbalance. This was only our best theory - if anybody reading this has any other ideas, please share them. But I felt compelled to mention it as if it's true, it was a classic 'Swiss cheese' model of many small (and rare) factors adding up to greater than the sum of their parts. Had the ice build up become significant, it could very well have led into unrecoverable spin territory...! Fly safe all :)
Wow interesting story, thanks for sharing. Must have been the sun, an interesting concept. Lucky it turned out well!
Maybe you had much more fuel in the port wing tank which subcooled and served as coold reservoir saving enough energy to freeze the rain on the outside. That's a common reason why you sometimes see airliners wings even in tropical areas being deiced. They come from -60C and go down to very moist air! Regards and stay safe
@Mel Buh Yeah, we thought about the fuel thing, but we were pretty good at switching tanks regularly and evenly! I've literally never experienced anything like it before or since. And yeah I've heard about that! Fly safe
I thought your shirt looked familiar and I couldn't put my finger on it at first. Then I realised I follow one of your other channels.
Haha good stuff!
LoL I just discovered his van channel. Sweeeeet lol
@@TheProPilot Haha if it wasn't for this damn glider channel I'd be making more van videos...
Water freezes at exactly the same air temperature regardless of wind velocity. Heat transfer inherently requires a temperature delta between heat source and heat sink. The RATE of heat transfer increases as wind increases, but the rate will trend to zero with time as the system trends toward equilibrium as delta T trends to zero. If ambient air temperature is below freezing, then flying fast will cause the water to cool down to the freezing temperature more quickly than flying slowly but not by much. If ambient air temperature is at or above freezing, then no matter how fast you fly the water will not freeze, even if the "wind chill" was significantly below freezing. Wind chill is like a temperature analogy not a physical property. You'll feel much colder at 1C with 100km/h wind than you will at -0.1C with zero wind. But despite feeling colder ice will not form.
Great video Tim & a good lesson to be learned from this for sure, cheers for putting out such fantastic content for us enthusiasts
Glad you enjoyed it, cheers!
Triflo sprayed along the hinge lines used to sort the same issue on the Cessna caravan
I don't think that helps on gliders, the hinges are internal in the wing for a start, also you don't fill the wings of a Cessna with water very often :)
Good idea to use a mirror even without engine to monitor water dumping! Never thought about this!
Thanks! I can’t believe I thought of it either :)
Yes, better to recognize an uneven dumping right at start than feeling the imbalance when it is too late!
I've heard of this (and airbrakes freezing - always a good idea to pop them open on the downwind leg to check) but it's the first time to see a problem on camera associated with a frozen glider control. Very interesting/informative : I hadn't appreciate that brand had such a reputation. Are you intending to try and fix that leak in the off season ? Would make for another interesting follow up vlog. By the way that water at 6:28 is an amazing colour !!!
It's awesome water colour eh! That's glacial water. And yes we'll be fixing the leak after the contests have finished. We don't often need lots of ballast, and my glider is already heavy so it hasn't been a big problem this season. I probably will make a short video about the water leak issue, good idea.
Sorry mate that was an own goal ! Ive always checked for water in airbrake boxes etc, would never fly with leaking tanks. I always put a smear of vaseline around the airbrakes and onto the valves if the air is cold to stop seizing, and to seal the valve. I also open the brakes on entering the pattern. Glad it didnt need you to use the parachute !
Yip it seems very obvious in hindsight!
Ik vindt uw filmpjes er interessant en geniet ook van de mooie beelden. Bedankt!
Thank you! (Maybe depending on what you said :)
Great video again, thanks for sharing this and also your insights
Thank you!
Hello, Jean-Marie Clement wrote 3 pages in his book "Danse avec le vent" "Dancing with the wind" about the use of anti-frost in water ballasts (p218).
Hi, yes those that fly at high altitude with water often use anti-freeze in their water tanks.
The wave flying pundits up in Scotland use antifreeze in their tanks
@@andrewpeacock8829 Yeah they do here too for wave flying.
I am curious, what was your thought process regarding the risk that there might have been enough water trapped in the space behind the tanks to refreeze the controls even if the tanks were empty?
Hi my main thought was I can fly home under the freezing level to stop it getting worse. Although I had to get over those mountains first! If it was getting worse I would have taken more action like descent or land somewhere, there were a number of airports on the way home
First wrong choice - flying with water in freezing temperatures at all (at least without antifreeze)
In my opinion although you did good by checking if both wings dropped the water - did you think about your CG correcting tail water Tank? If that one didn’t dump properly you would have been flying a tailheavy plane - a great way to put you in a deadly spin!
Maybe you did - in a case like this you should alway fly way over your stall speed especially while thermaling to prevent the spin in a tailheavy glider.
Hi yes agreed, wrong choice to fly with water and a leak in freezing temps.
I generally don't use the tail tank, obviously not an option when close to freezing as it's a much smaller body of water to freeze. In my case my glider is tail heavy anyway, so don't usually add tail water, and I'm not adding that much ballast water anyway.
Hey, great video. What is advantage of having two yarns (as slip indicators) instead if one? Thanks!
Thanks! Two reasons: easier to see if they are aligned in peripheral vision, and one is a backup if one falls off
Thanks for sharing
Thanks for watching!
I don’t fly with water unless I add alcohol when freezing is possible. You never know when you need to drop water. It may be frozen. I also landed with full water in 1 wing and empty 8n the other and didn’t notice it at all. Not preferable but no big deal.
Yeah good to know, and yes wave flying they use alcohol or anti freeze. I guess I wasn’t expect freezing to be an issue on a thermal day!
Well recognised and mitigated. When travelling around the country to competitions do you take the glider in a trailer? Love your content.
Thanks! Sure do, it all gets hauled around behind my van 🚐
First, thanks for your videos. At 2:46 you mention that the "...wind chill factor...". I assume you mean that the wind chill factor is making your situation with the water leak worse - freezing faster/harder/quicker. Probably not. A wind chill below 0C does not cause liquids to freeze if the actual ambient temperature is above 0C.
Excellent point, thanks! I guess 'wind chill' is actually 'how it feels to a human', not actually changing the temperature? Although I'm assuming it can help cool things to the surrounding temperature faster? e.g. if the water is coming out just above freezing, but the outside temp is -10, the wind will help take the heat energy out of the water faster? Just like sticking your hand out the window, the wind will help dissipate the heat from your finger faster? Does that sound right?
@@PureGlide It does defy login but the answer is no, wind chill doesn't accelerate taking away "heat energy" from inanimate objects. wgntv.com/weather/if-the-temperature-is-above-freezing-but-the-wind-chill-is-below-freezing-will-water-freeze/
Ah that’s not what that article says? “An object will lose heat in calm conditions, but wind will remove it more quickly”
@@PureGlide Yep, you are right. My bad. The water will freeze quicker due to wind chill - but by how much? We'd need a physicist to figure that out. I would think that in your flight in below freezing temperatures the water would have froze almost instantly because the leak's drips splashing onto cold metal have a huge surface area per volume (as compared to the water in your bags/tanks). Critically your recognizing the issue, reacted, and then dived to a lower altitude into above freezing temperatures - and got rid of the problematic H2O. Great decision making and a good teaching moment. The move you made melted the ice probably just as quickly as it had formed due to the same wind chill (anti-chill?) factor (lots of assumptions there). The point, I suppose, is that your body can suffer hypothermia at temperatures above freezing due to wind-chill while inanimate objects are not impacted in this way. Thus using the term wind-chill is tricky and can cause confusion to us poor animate humans. Now, GO FIX THAT LEAK! And let us know how you did it! ;-)
Great video, really didactical. Thanks for it!!
Glad you liked it! Thanks
I would suggest brushing up on flying the glider with just rudder and elevator so that if that happens again for whatever reason, you're comfortable flying with just the rudder and elevator.
Yeah it's a good last resort if you loose ailerons control completely
Who would have thought that could happen...I guess some sort of anti freeze is out of the question too expensive to dump it when needed...whatever that reason could be...
I have watched many videos and wondered about icing..
You identified a problem with your primary flight controls. Dumped water, assessed the problem to be fixed and chose to continue your flight until the problem reoccured. I think a more prudent decision would have been to "land immediately at the nearest suitable airport" as is quoted in our big aircraft QRH's. You landed safely which of course is a 👍👍👍 however your initial conclusion that the fault was fixed was in hindsight not correct.
Yes you're probably right. Although I wasn't too worried as was able to fly below freezing level on the way home if needed, or land at the various airports on the way home. So probably another mistake was flying a bit too high on the way home which allowed it to get a bit worse...
Fix the leak.
Water on your control hardware is not good even above freezing level.
You suspected the water would freeze on your control, still flew.
Well now that’s some fine judgement .
Don't be silly, I wouldn't fly if I thought the controls were going to freeze. Sure I made the mistake of flying with water and into freezing temperatures, but I didn't put the two together or realise it would be a problem until it was a problem! Yes I'm a dummy for not putting it together earlier, that's the point of the video.
@@PureGlide silly?
I hear you in the video during your flight talking about moving the controls because your above freezing level.
Thank you for sharing this video, it reinforces the the saying “whatever can go wrong, will go wrong”.
I’m glad you learned something from the flight, I did also.
Great video, fly safe.
When I was training on the Puchez the air brakes would stay in selected position hands off, but when I changed gliders in training the Grob would retract the air brakes when hands off, I was not briefed, you can guess what happened there, thank heavens for wheel brakes, going over the edge of a cliff is not a good idea.
Yeah so critical changing gliders!
1:21 That’s all I had to watch for him to acknowledge the fact that he actually did a preflight and knew that there was an issue, but then flew anyway.
This is exactly the problem bad aeronautical decision making which starts on the ground
Yeah we all make mistakes. It's a good example of how a tiny problem might seem inconsequential, but then actually is a problem when other factors come into play (i.e. a lower freezing level) . After talking to the glider manufacturer and my glider engineers it's safe to fly without water until we get the leak fixed.
Not gliding but had a throttle freeze once on cruise climb power.
Not great either I bet! Especially if you need to come down to un-freeze...
Why do you have 2 yaw strings? I have never seen that before :)
Would you believe you’re not the first to ask! czcams.com/video/OR9zJwcGxoQ/video.html
Uh oh.. this title makes me feel a bit uncomfortable. Glad you made it down safely! I would also be a bit worried about the water.. Especially because of what I witnessed on my Cirrus..
Uh oh indeed, although I know you haven't watched it yet to see what happens as it's only been public for 1 minute!
@@PureGlide 😂
Can you please explain the adding of water to the leading edge wings gives you more speed and is it common in all flights
Hi subscribe to be notified when we publish a whole video dedicated to that topic. It's counterintuitive, but basically more weight lets the glider fly faster at the same glide ratio. We don't use it every flight, sometimes we want to be lighter instead. Only when conditions are 'strong'. Stay tuned! Cheers
Excellent videos. Keep up the good work. You may get some poor comments on this one from armchair pilots who know nothing about it. Don't be discouraged, this sort of honest discussion is good for the sport.
Btw. Why two yaw strings?
Thank you for your support! It's certainly different when you're actually there and can feel/see everything properly, in this case I could feel what the controls were doing quite easily. The video misses much of this of course.
Two yaw strings: redundancy and better peripheral vision indication of flying straight. Expect a video about it soon!
You think glider water tanks are leaky, you should try paragliding ballast bags 😳😬🙈
lol I did hear recently of people filling something on paragliders with gravel during comps?!
@@PureGlide would hate to be under them when they decide to dump their "ballast" 😜
Very interesting channel!
Thank you very much!
Is there a reason why you don't add some anitfreeze to the tanks ?
Apologies if this has been asked or answered already ?
Hi, normally it's not an issue, as it takes a long time to freeze a large quantity of water, and we are usually only in the air for a a few hours. It's only a real problem when it leaks out like this. Some do use antifreeze or pure alcohol in their tail tanks (which are a lot smaller).
Can you put iso alcohol or methanol in the wing tanks to avoid freezing?
You'd need a lot! It's usually not a problem as a large amount of water won't freeze quickly. It takes time. This was only a problem because the leak dribbled out, thus was able to freeze.
Can you fill the ballasts with antifreeze agent instead of water like you would in a car radiator?
Hi some use alcohol in the tail tank but most don’t bother with anti freeze in the wings. You’d need a LOT, and luckily it takes a long time to freeze a lot of water.
Build glider fully of carbon to make them the as light as we can, but fill it with water to make them heavier
Imagine a ping pong ball filled with water vs one thats not. Way easier for the one with water to punch through the air and go faster. We then empty the water to land, as that's when you want to be as light as possible. On some days you want to be as heavy as possible for speed, other days as light as possible to climb more easily. So it's good being able to change the weight.
@@PureGlide Yeah yeah I know all of this, I do it also for country flight. But that sound like an paradox... But thank anyway 👌
Well ? Had you not had the leak and continued you might have had some serious damage to your wings? Looking at the bright side.
Hi it's unlikely, as I was only just above the freezing level and for a short time, so it was only small quantities of water (like a leak) freezing. The whole large water tank would not be able to freeze in that time. If wave flying at high altitude for long periods this is definitely an issue.
i really like your vids! do you plan on redoing your panel? I think it looks kinda messy, do you plan on upgrading anything in it?
I don't know what you mean, it's perfect. Just joking, yes absolutely :)
@@PureGlide sorry i didnt mean to be rude, would you mind making a video about the planing and crafting of the panel? would love to see it. cheers
@@fitme6650 Yeah I sure will be! It'll be a while away. In the meantime check out Stefan Langer's latest video czcams.com/video/E6zGXmHTdpI/video.html
Just a thought but, what would the problem be by adding antifreeze to the water?
None really, unless it is corrosive in some way. I believe people flying in wave do it. In this case I didn't realise it would be a problem until I was flying!
It is my understanding that glider pilots who fly in wave wave will add alcohol to the water to lower the freezing point. I have heard stories of pilots adding Vodka to their wing water. 😆 Not sure if that's just an urban legend though.
How big are the tanks? Would adding antifreeze or cold temperature windshield fluid work?
Yes they do that sometimes. The tanks are big, 90L each, and normally have 40 litres or so. In a normal flight at around zero degrees, the tank won't freeze up, it takes too long. If you were doing a wave flight for 10 hours at -20, then yes it can be a problem and anti-freeze would be needed. In this case though the problem was not the bulk of the water wing tank freezing, it was the bit dribbling out, which is much easier to freeze because it's a small amount of water. So if there wasn't a leak, it wouldn't have been a problem. Cheers!
Is deicing equipment available for Gliders our is it not that Necessary
Hi no we generally don’t fly in clouds or moisture that would cause icing on wings like planes.
I have a question that might be probably googled within seconds, but don't people seek for human interaction? haha. So:
Why dont you mix that water with antifreeze? Neither am I a pilot, nor am I a Chemisist, so I'm sorry if I'm missing something obvious. I am watching tons of videos of flying because it fascinates me, but I dont have the money to do it on my own.
The question that I have: Wouldn't it be the easiest solution to add antifreeze to the wing water? Or would it then blurr the borders of decision, when it is safe to climb and when it isn't?
I hope you guys get the point of the question, since English education was only transferred to me in school and i hardly ever use it in daily life.
Lovely greetings from Germany!
Hi yeah I think some people do sometimes, if they are planning on an extremely long or high altitude flight. But normally the wings full of water won't freeze for a LONG time, simple because it takes time for a mass of water to get down to that temperature. In my case the water leaked, and it was the water being cooled by the external air. If it hadn't leaked, it wouldn't have been a problem.
@@PureGlide Thanks for the quick reply! Now that makes a whole lot of sense. Have a good day and thanks for your content! :)
Noce footage, what os the gimbal in cockpit?
Hi Rami, no gimbal, simply the stabilisation built into the GoPro Here 8!
Do gliders have a wheel brake or do you just roll until it stops?
We have a wheel brake, critical so landing in a field you can pull up to a stop as quickly as possible to reduce the chances of hitting a hole 🕳️. When we land we’re about 100km/h so some braking is very useful.
"As a pilot, what would you have done?" Land ASAP, dry off the plane, make sure everything is good - and remain alive. No messing with stuck ailerons...
Fair enough!
It's better to be down here wishing you were up there than be up there wishing you were down here 🤔😬
Elevator and rudder still working?
Yeah they were fine :)
My question is on a good day with no rain and no leaks can ice still build up on wings or ailerons in freezing temperatures ? Curious if there are conditions that could cause a problem .
Generally planes have this problem as they fly through cloud, while the gliders generally remain clear of cloud. So as long as you’re not flying in cloud there’s no moisture to form up on the wings ☁️
@@PureGlide thank you for your reply I’m trying to learn as much as I can about this sport . I’m taking some lessons and fly a altralight but I got a lot to learn .
The ultimate sailing?
It sure is :)
Mixing the water with a antifreeze like the ones used in cars radiators would've helped?
Yeah they do do that
Isn't that stuff pretty toxic?
@@ipodhty Yeah it is! No idea what they actually use in the gliders, it might be dilluted or something slightly different. But some sort of anti-freeze.
Could you mix in some anti-freeze with the ballast water?
We have to dump it every time we land, so it would get expensive!
i like it i give you my Abo !!!
Thx!
Ah yes the ol shemp drip.
Yes classic Schempp :)
Seems to me you dodged a bullet there, in powered flying that sort of situation is a textbook chain link event that almost always ends in tragedy. The decision to ignore the leak was the start of the chain, it seems to have been quite a non event in actuality, well handled, To even identify the problem is an indication of experience but also evidence of a problem with decision making, that said it seems that in soaring it’s less critical.
It’s always a question when things go wrong as to what to do. Keep in mind in 15 years of flying, being at freezing temps is not normally a problem and it’s normally ever freezing during a thermal flight. So it just didn’t occur to me until it happened!
50/50 water and antifreeze in the wings? -Good down to minus 50 deg. C
Yes pilots who fly in wave conditions a lot do that. Not sure of the ratios, the tanks are 180 litres total in some gliders! That would be pretty pricey I suspect...
@@PureGlide In Scotland a full load costs £60 - 100, so the pundits land with it on board and fly with a stick to put under the wing to stop it leaking out. The approach speed obviously has to be much faster.
Why not put antifreeze in your water?
Yes some do - normally it's not a problem for short periods at around zero, because its such a large mass of water, it takes a long time to freeze it. Of course I wasn't expecting a leak...
@@PureGlide thanks, I get your point, put treated leaking water surely helps in this scenario? Tea bag and tea strainer approach?
Why not just flip on the electric de-icier switch.... no biggie?
Haha doh I should have thought of that!
Would disagree with your conclusion that you made good decision making, you flew knowing the glider was defective, and didn't land when you knew the controls surfaces became iced. You even said yourself that residual water on the control surfaces was a possibility. You also knew the answer was not to fly with water ballast in cold conditions. If your controls had got stuck fully actuated on one side the result could have been very different.
Having said all that I am enjoying watching your videos in the main.
Yeah it's certainly debatable if I should have landed or not - I guess what doesn't come across in the videos is how it feels, and it didn't feel like it was about to freeze solid. Also I could descend at any time below the freezing level and it wouldn't get any worse. I also could have landed at multiple airstrips on the way home if it did get worse. But yes you could argue it would be safest to just land it. The downside is where I was was a LONG way away from any population, a car retrieve would have taken many hours, and I would have been left exposed in the mountains. Not ideal either :)
The problem with this is, you knew you had a tank leak and then flew into known icing conditions even without the leak flying in icing conditions is just foolish especially in an aircraft without ice protection.
Hi yes flying into freezing temperatures with a leak was a mistake, thus the point of the video! However gliders to do fly into freezing temperatures commonly when wave flying. It's common to have outside temperatures of -10 to -30 degrees celsius. The difference is we fly VFR, and not in cloud, so don't have ice forming on the leading edges of the wings.
@@PureGlide I'll have to have ago, do like the idea of sailing.
If you
What makes the water there so blue?
It’s water straight from the glaciers www.christchurchnz.com/explore/explorechc/glacial-expert-talks-through-why-lake-pukaki-is-so-blue
Antifreeze dropped from all the gliders :-)
Add antifrezze
They do when wave flying, but that's not the real problem here. Cheers!
Id dump water and get lower.
Yip! had to get over those damn mountain things to get home though :)
Who would have thought that could happen...I guess some sort of anti freeze is out of the question too expensive to dump it when needed...whatever that reason could be...
Yeah exactly, generally it's only a problem if it leaks. A big mass of water takes a long time to freeze up, so that's not a problem normally for the length of flights we have.