The way Jonathan and Riley can sit with raised voices and argue for and against the same features, come to the same conclusion, and still cut each other off is amazing.
@@jonathansoko1085 ^ THIS. How anyone who truly understands tech, can buy into the apple ecosystem and defend it without coming across like a complete jackass is beyond me. It is such a flawed perspective on every level, fundamentally.
This feels like two friends, who are slightly drunk, having a fun argument about things that don’t really matter but that they care deeply about because they’re buzzed… and I’m loving it :)
@@girlsdrinkfeck the UI on androids is functionally similar, because being that easy to use is literally the point of UX design. Meanwhile the androids become ewaste twice to thrice as fast, and are only my preference for people who are going to lose/drop/break whatever they get anyway.
Riley’s “Dream” was actually the direction that Canonical wanted to take Ubuntu in about ten years ago. The idea was an Ubuntu phone could be docked to a larger screen to become a tablet, which could in turn be docked to a workstation with mouse and keyboard to become a full computer. Unfortunately phones, especially those running Ubuntu Touch weren’t anywhere near powerful enough for this to happen.
I think they both need to try Samsung's DEX. Just so they have an concept to compare to when talking about Riley's dream scenario and Jonathan's view on keeping the two ways of interacting between devices separate. There are parts I slightly agree with Jonathan and slightly agree with Riley but not all the way for either so I'd almost want to see a part two after they've actually gotten to play with more 2 in 1s, touch laptops, using mobile apps on desktops and DEX
Jonathan used DEX and found it interesting but not necessarily great in the Mac Address video do iPads have any competition in 2022 where he used a samsung tablet for 10 days.
@@U1TR4F0RCE Looking at it though, he used it while still in tablet mode rather than with a keyboard or using it with an external display... which I suppose it's more than Riley has used it though 😆. Though I can't say if he's did more with it off camera though so there is that. I would prefer they both have a deeper dive into it. Not even saying that it would mean they'd love it or anything, just so they'd have a better idea to compare against especially in discussion of what Riley would want the iPads to accomplish
Samsung Dex is good but I think Microsoft's implementation on Windows 10 Mobile was better and would be better today if Windows 10 Mobile wasn't discontinued in 2017 (feature updates) - 2020 (security updates) and that they had added Win32 application support. I'm just waiting for Dex to support X11 and Wayland applications (through a Debian or Fedora Linux runtime environment like on ChromeOS)...
The way I see this is Jonathan is in denial and can't see anything other than "Apple is right they can't be wrong unless I myself don't like it" but Riley is "Apple is wrong unless I like it then they're finally doing it right"
Nope, Jonathon does wholeheartedly criticises Apple, he sees the flaws He is jot "fanboying" he just likes it generally. The people who like things most will want them to improve more.
He drunk the Apple kool aid. Pretty much most of his arguments are "Apple is doing it right but you people misunderstand". No, we don't misunderstand. We just happen to think Apple is doing it wrong because we've seen Microsoft, Google and Samsung do it right
I really think these two should make a video trying Samsung Dex on one of Samsung's flagship tablets. It's great as a desktop experience for basic tasks, but you can turn it off and use it as a regular tablet the way Horst likes.
I bought a Tab S8+ and couldn´t be happier. Twice during the week I take it to work to use as a regular notebook acessing my desktop remotely, giving me full access to my software. The rest of the week it sits next to my PC and acts as a Touch Portal screen. Best of both worlds.
@@Edino_Chattino I do the same but still bring my laptop because of SAP due to my job description includes processing of POs but our company don't want to pay another license for S4hana which has a mobile app. Another thing is I hope Microsoft updates the PPT app that does not only mirror your screen when sharing your slides.
I forgot my laptop last week and used Dex a full workday. It was a great experience and worked incredibly well. Also I wouldn't ever remove touch support on windows on my XPS
Jonathan is one of those people who complains that features shouldn't be added for others who want them because he doesn't want to use them so no one should have it and that is the most frustrating type of person ever. i mean could you imagine how insanely powerful and functional an apple version of the surface book would be with the M2 where you get mac os (interface) while docked to the keyboard base and ipad os (interface) in tablet form, they have all the puzzle pieces to bring the ultimate laptop/tablet hybrid but they wont do it because they can charge 2x more for each thing separate.
In the Steve Jobs era, this wouldn't be some tiny figment of our imagination, it would've happened and be hailed as the greatest thing since FORKS were invented. With Tim Cook at the helm, forget it, dude's only good at one thing: fatten his own golden parachute. Everything else is a matter of "just how much can we squeeze out of a gullible Apple fanboy before they squeal".
@@johnnycheung5536 I don't Steve Jobs would blur the line between phone and desktop to the point where both devices lose their identity. It would be bad for apples marketing, and it would be much more difficult for them to lock it down
That's not the reason he's against that. What Jonathan fears is dilution of the touch first ux and iOS devolving into a mutated mess like windows 8. And he is right in so far as that yes, every different way of interaction needs a different, separate ux catered to that mode of interaction. What he does not consider though, is exactly what you describe, having both modes of interaction in one but keeping them strictly separated.
@@neruwu except every other major os is working out just fine at this point with touch, keyboard+mouse, and controllers i use all three inputs on windows, android, chrome os, and linux. More so it's apple just doesn't want to make their products too independently useful so that they can keep people thinking they need to buy each type of product always (though they should know by now their super fans who do buy everything would do it regardless).
@@johnnycheung5536 thats just how the WHOLE industry is. not just Apple but everyone. corporations are maximizing their profits. e.g. NVIDIA and AMD set ridiculous pricing so their new GPUs won't drop old GPUs prices. Intel started really improving their CPUs only when AMD managed to catch up, because big gains in performance drop prices on older stuff which is still selling so less progress = better for them. AMD removed V-cache from Ryzen 7000 so they won't have +40% generational gain and destroy its own Ryzen 5000 pricing. V-cache is a tech thats tried and works on 5800X3D, there is no reason it isn't used on 7000 CPUs other than limiting gains. enjoy the world we are all living in with artificial product segmentation, artificially slowed down 5-10%/year max of a technological progress, and ridiculous prices so that companies can have 10x margins and make hundreds of billions in profits. all thanks to people buying overpriced crap.
Here's the answer - Samsung DeX experience but with the M1 iPad. Allow the UI to become more KB/M + Large Screen friendly when docked. I can't think of any reason Apple isn't doing this other than "don't be poor"
Apple want to sell more devices, so obviously they have an incentive to NOT make any of them the "one device" device...even if they had that incredibly cringe "what's a computer?" ad campaign.
@@AdamStansbery the standalone desktop access and window management is just not great (I mean macos in general doens't have good window management when compared to any other modern operating system)
Same reason they don't make a 2-in-1 laptop, or heck, even a touch screen one, so their products don't cannibalize each other ever, because they want you to buy into their "ecosystem" (walled garden). The competition doesn't exist to them, because come hell or high water, they will make it a matter of haves and have nots, that you need ALL of their devices to have a experience that isn't annoying. And then everyone else copies them as best they can. Apple will NEVER be honest and say "don't be poor", but they is their reason. Sorry for the length, Apple's nonsense annoys me sometimes.
@@topethermohenes7658 yep, samsung should've made Exynos with AMD graphics years ago but they didn't for some reason. Most likely because such a chip would make all their current gen phones obsolete and basically would destroy mobile market. just Imagine every phone is a Steam Deck capable of running PC AAA games but with a normal smartphone size. the fact that Steam Deck exists shows that there is no technological reason we can't have that. or couldn't have had that like 2 years ago. the only reason it doesn't exist is corporations greed and desire to predictably make billions selling pretty much the same slow crap year after year.
@@rawdez_ they tried too milk more on their current exynos that's why, damn i think I'm salivating on the thought of an underclocked, passively cooled ps5 class APU on ARM
@@topethermohenes7658 >I'm salivating yeah, me too, I'm waiting for that since like 2012 and i've been salivating from like 2019 after their announcement, hoping they would finally end this nonsense with mobile gaming sucking really really hard. but nope. at this point I've just buried all my hopes and don't really care anymore just hating on all corporations for everything they are doing. f them all.
I have one *very* explicit use for the iPad 12.9 inch, and that's for reading sheet music. It paired with a foot pedal is unparalleled in functionality vs. regular paper sheet music. Other than that, I've really failed to find a genuine use for the iPad for my own usecase; it can't do most of the things I would even need a laptop for, and my desktop is just so much more capable than any laptop will be for the foreseeable future. *shrug*
Would a 2 in 1 laptop folded into tablet mode be able to do the same thing, plus allow for music creation? I only use my iPad for handwritten notes but once GoodNotes is available on Windows next year, I’ll probably abandon even that use case in favor of my 2 in 1 laptop
I’m in the same boat as you. My main reason for getting the 12.9” M1 iPad Pro was forScore. Since I’m usually playing in orchestra as the lone viola player, not having to stop playing to turn a page and also having all sheet music with me at all times makes the iPad an incomparable tool. Having the option to annotate music in multiple colours/opacities and then being able to easily share the music with bowings and notes in PDF form helps so much. It replacing all my school notebooks and being a great media consumption device makes it even more worth it for me. If you’re a musician that has multiple orchestras/choirs that they routinely play/sing in, having a tablet for all your music is a thing that once you get used to, you can’t go back. But if I weren’t using it for sheet music, even just using it for school would make me have to think a lot more about the cost being worth it
Jonathan is so stubbornly locked into this idea of product segmentation that he refuses to see Riley's view of a well designed and well implemented OS is actually beneficial for all users. I used my Chromebook Pixel LS from 2015 (until a few weeks ago when it died) about 50/50 between touch and trackpad. The OS was flexible enough to allow for that and I love the hell out of it. Riley is on the money with the singular simple device for lounging that can be powerful enough to do light work on. The moment somebody figures out that balance, it's all over. Let's face it, most office work is NOT demanding. For the stuff that is, a different class of computer still exists for a reason. Also Jonathan's argument of "shoehorning" desktop features to ipad is obscene. If the two OSs merged, they would theoretically have the combined developer manpower to build a better, smoother operating OS. It almost upsets me that somebody with such closed minded views could be under the LTT umbrella.
well keep in mind, Jonathan is also the one who believes the perfect keyboard for him is one that clicks so loud with every button press that every person in the starbucks or apartment complex would hear him working. That's kind of a "me first, forget everyone else" approach to technology.
No amount of manpower can change the objective fact that the two different modes of interaction demand different UX design. What they both need is a Dex mode for iOS.
Just threw Dex on for the first time through my docking station and S22 Ultra because of some of the comments here. It's pretty awesome. Many apps are clearly not desktop apps. But the actual desktop/windowing functionality and mouse support felt basically perfect. I was seriously surprised. If it had a proper library of apps to utilize it to the fullest it would have some serious practicality. But even the existing apps felt totally usable and useful on a large screen through windows. It really feels like "Riley's Dream" has already been designed, it just needs development, or for Apple to copy it. And as far as iPadOS goes, Dex basically seems exactly how it *should* be working in order to complete its evolution into a proper universal productivity machine.
i have both the iPad m4 and the Samsung S8 Tab Plus and if i'm too lazy to bring my laptop around, i'll just bring the s8 tab plus, due to the versatility of it. IF you use kiwi browser, you're capable of installing chrome extensions on there (albeit, might not be perfect for some extensions so results WILL vary) BUT in terms of multitasking goes, i find it better on samsung or android than it is on the iPad even with stage manager. the iPad icons look way more sharper than the android ones but i'm not sure if it's my eyes or something but with all the glitz and shine, it still feels like a powerhouse engine running a boat with oars only. I can understand the fear of making it into a full desktop mode for Apple, due to their sales of their other devices like macbooks reducing but can't you give a good desktop mode? they already have iPad apps that essentially are desktop tier apps in some cases. To me, their fanboys are dumb and anyone who says, i don't use a function, therefore, it doesn't need to exist have very little imagination to potential usage; maybe not for them, but at least, for those who can use it. I rather have the function than not have it when i need it. Thus, i feel less bogged down if i use the android tablet like samsung's rather than the iPad. The only thing i wish was that android tablets, when i plug in to an external monitor, would extend the display or give me the chance to have two displays without using Dex. the "mouse" on iPads suck balls. it feels like it's actively fighting me to where i want to go even though, it's allegedly mimicking a finger. feels very annoying. i don't understand why slack on android sucks for tablet so so much. i usually use the web version but the iPad has that working perfectly fine. i also would love to see android support external cameras for communication apps like zoom or whatsapp. If they do this, i really can ditch my heavier laptop for my samsung tablet. As of right now, not there yet and perhaps will never happen as devs would need the incentives to allow different cameras outside the built in ones.
Riley is 100% right. That single device that does everything has been the dream for years now. One device. One OS. One set of data. Multiple interfaces for when you access to a mouse vs touch or large monitor vs small mobile screen.
Před rokem
Perfect device would be a rolling sceen device. Rolled its a smartphone. Unroll to make a tablet. Put a keyboard flap on the bottom and it starts the desktop os. Samsung has the vision
It's called the Galaxy Fold with Samsung DeX. It's literally what Riley describes, right down to "fold it and use it as a phone." I use my Fold 4 this way on a daily basis - it is my single PC, tablet, and phone.
From what ive seen of the samsaung dex feature- i wish stage manager was that, its still entirely a mobile os but gives a extra skin flavor by plugging it into a mouse/keyboard
I’m an iPad user for the last 10 years and Jonathan is the only one that’s ever been able to relay the reason I use my iPad daily. I’ve been on the iPad Pro since their first gen and 100% agree this is a consumption device first in its current state, even with a keyboard I will always get off the couch and use my desktop pc to type every time. All my CZcams consumption, mobile gaming and social is on iPad. Even though it has a massive unleashed potential, it will never replace a computer for me and only if third party app stores are introduced will we ever know how to leverage that power in its processor and it’s form factor.
I am also a iPad user and a developer. I agree with Jonathan as well that the iPad should remain a touch focused device. However the iPad and the App Store shouldn’t be so locked. I think that in some ways Riley is right that with more freedom will come more desktop like apps. But, that is the price of innovation. Ultimately though, its hard to get behind making apps when you are going to get gouged by apple, especially when it comes to devices like The iPad Pro’s that are different dev platform on their own. To sum it up its a niche market, that is difficult to develop for, and you will and up with a significant pay cut.
The iPad should stay as a touchscreen tablet and should NEVER become like a laptop. It a quick device you can just pick up for looking at email, odd bit of shopping and the watching of CZcams videos. Apple just want to turn it into a laptop device so they can start charging you big bucks for it and that should not be the case.
I think I understand what Jonathan is saying: instead of trying to make a "professional" all in one device like Riley is proposing, he thinks Apple should be exploiting the possibilities of the tablet form factor by making the platform more open to developers. Rather than being an all-in-one device, it could be part of a main hub or setup that integrates with everything else. Kind of like a monitor or peripheral device. The tablet form factor may or may not be fit for everything after all. If his perspective is similar to what I summarized, then I can somewhat understand it.
Everytime I hear Johnathan I am reminded why I am simply not an Apple person. Smart move to have him start another channel he probably says everything an Apple person wants to hear!
@@mikeb.4597 he has, but he is still here in this video arguing against consumer choice which is Apple's whole bag. What he does disagree with is the things that bother him and only him. He never sees anyone else's complaints as legitimate. There's always a fanboy excuse - but Apple don't want you to use your iPad for that. But you have a Macbook Pro for productivity, why would your $1,000+ iPad with the same chip also be able to do productivity stuff. It's only for the iPad stuff!
At this point Apple has made a mess, the iPad isn’t a computer and is limited by Apple. The iPad Pro with the Magic Keyboard weighs more than an air, while using the same chip. It’s limited by the App Store, and is a consumption device more than for work. A 299$ 9th Gen iPad can write notes, edit videos, all the same as the previous pros. When you add a keyboard and connect to an external display it’s still clunky. I used to use an iPad for college but moved to a mac since Apple adds a single feature every year.
M2 is not hampred, infact for apps that support iPadOS and macOS that use the full chip (GPU, CPU etc) they tend to complete tasks 5% faster on the ipad than the MBA since on the ipad nothing else is running so they do not need to share any resoursses with the background chatter of the OS or other applications. the Chip is not limited by the OS at all, you end up infact with more addressable memory on an iPad than on a mac with the same chip.
In theory, it isnt too difficult to just adjust the UI/UX for say an ipad or modern phones when connected to a display. You can just have it switch to a desktop-like layout once connected to an external monitor with a mouse/keyboard and switch it back to when disconnected. I also disagree that modern phones cant run a desktop-like environment for light usage. I remember using a raspberry pi 3 attached to a display and it ran just fine for basic browsing/ word editing. Most modern phones(especially the higher end ones) are easily able to deliver a chromebook type experience since they are far more powerful than something like a raspberry pi
Apple has basically infinite money, so it isn't a dev problem, and they could force compatibility like they forced other things on devs. Samsung DEX proves that what you said can be a reality. I'd use it if I wasn't to darn used to Windows. Apple's chips are iirc leagues ahead of even Qualcomm (their next closest competitor in mobile chips), so if they wanted to, they could thoroughly embarrass Samsung. Instead, they do what they've always done for as long as I can remember, and pretend the competition doesn't exist. I'm a university student, and I've seen more issues with professors that use macs as compared to the one professor that used DEX (the fancy new EPSON projectors in some of the buildings support Miracast, and Dex will work over them normally.
I think the iPad is an absolute one fits all device for students. I started using an iPad (pro) 2 years ago for uni, and I use it every single day as a journal/notebook. I haven’t touched a piece of paper or pencil in years. All of my notes are written on it. All of my homework is scanned and done on it. I’m in software engineering, so all of my flowcharts are done on it, and I also use it to test the mobile experience of web development on the iPad. When I’m laying in bed, it’s my TV. I don’t use it as a laptop experience, but students could literally buy the $50 Logitech keyboards, open up Microsoft/Google Docs, and start typing notes, or even do Power Excel/BI if they have the Cloud tier. The iPad replaces a typical laptop AND journal, for almost every student major, besides Architect/Programming students. I would never code on the iPad… I imagine CAD isn’t on it either.
Agreed. Apple's app distribution model is a fundamental issue. As a mobile app developer, the development and publishing process for iOS has a lot of barriers that deters, if not prevents, developers from making an app for iOS with the main barrier being access: You simply cannot effectively develop or publish an iOS app without using XCode, which is software that is only available on MacOS. It's a frustrating reality. That said, developers would be more interested in offering better app support for iPads once Apple makes XCode and app distribution available for other platforms, like Windows.
macing xcode for other operating sytems would not have much effect at all. And would be a massive amoutn of work, evne if your just talking about the SDK compiler stack and you would need to bring your own SDK linux support might be possible but windows support would require a massive re-write of the entier stack, not to mention how on earth your going to run the simlu.ators ? simpluators on macOS are not VM this is how they have (ok ish) prefomance. The only way you would ever be able to run simluators on other non darwin kenrals would be for them to be VMs (just like android development) and we both know how bad and (uselss) those are.
XCode will never be officially ported outside MacOS unless Tim Cook has an aneurysm and is replaced by a visionary that doesn't flinch at even the *slightest possibility* of FAILURE.
@@hishnash just say it how it is - Apple silicone is a piece of junk until they open their walled garden. but 1) never gonna happen 2) iSheep and glamour instagirls are still buying Apple crap because they don't care that its overpriced and its great at making insta posts - dumb people don't use any devices for anything serious. simple video editing is like the maximum of isheep needs and its great for that.
@@rawdez_ apple silicon is no more locked down than intel, amd or any other chip vendor. In fact if you look at the runtime it is more open than modern intel/amd systems as when you boot your os only your code is running there is no intel manamgnet engine that has supper powers over everything.
This was a great format for tech linked. The ability to debate a point was really well done. Especially since it was focused on one topic without wandering off…unlike some shows on the same set 😂
I feel like the Steam Deck is not very far away from what Riley is wanting. Just slap a USB-C dock on it, and it becomes a totally usable desktop. Granted, with the learning curve of Linux, but it's a pretty easy to use distro.
He looks extremely annoying to work with. He’s constantly cutting Riley off. Responding rudely. Taking issue with words like “sideloading” for no apparent reason. And generally just has an air of superiority.
@@___DRIP___ linus loves him. riley is the kinda guy to find that stuff funny. i doubt that he acts the same off camera. everyone develops their own persona when in front of the camera.
Loved this video! Only a couple things I wanted to add that were almost addressed but not quite: 1) Windows 10 tablet mode was an awful experience for me on my midrange 2-in-1 (screen auto-rotation basically didn't work) and Windows 11 made it twice as bad, to the point that I had to go into Settings and manually change the screen rotation every time I wanted to use it in portrait. My $300 Chromebook works 10 times better as an actual 2-in-1 and is so much more intuitive in tablet mode all around (reasonably sized buttons/UI, phone-like gestures, and rotation that actually works). 2) It probably isn't powerful enough by Jonathan's standards, but any Galaxy Fold should do a really great job of that '3 sizes in 1' experience. I don't use DeX all that often but it has come a long way and seems pretty underappreciated for how capable it is, and it certainly has (at least in my opinion) a better tablet-to-desktop interface than the iPad.
I have a high end surface pro (2017) and I love it. Never had issues with screen rotation or the tablet experience in general. It might be a firmware thing?
@@AbnormallyOld the ongoing success of the surface models was one of the things that made me think the argument was crazy. This is already a settled issue. Some people like to wear Chelsea boots, some people like Oxfords or Brogues or loafers or Vessi... whatever those things are. The only reason I haven't replaced my laptop with a proper 2-in-1 (tablet plus keyboard detachable as 360 things do NOT count) is money. But a lot of people love the form factor. It's undeniable at this point.
It's funny that Riley mentioned Linux at the end, because I was thinking of a Linux powered device that kind of matches what he said about an adaptable device: the Steam Deck. It has the console ui, tuned for the form factor and controls, but you can also set it on desktop mode, plug it to a dock, and write the next episode of Techlinked while having the steam Deck screen play a CZcams video on the side
As a windows tablet user (for art) amounskt iPad users the iOS control makes Ipads generally means all apps are touch first and very user friendly. Whereas a hadare identically windows tablet ends up with generally simular experience more powerful but cheaper and more powerfull apps. Also I am saying this as someone raised on linux for desktop so natural familiarity or bias, both OS models work depending on who wants to use it.
I had a windows 10 phone and one I got specifically for continuum. The website browser experience was totally fine. It was the equivalent of using a Chromebook, obviously not as good as any decent speced laptop but more then fine.
I loved using my surface 3 as a touch based device. Microsofts problem is that they didn't get more apps on the device. I would have loved not having to go through the web to download stuff.
That was the problem with the MS phone OS. In my opinion it was the best phone OS, but there was hardly any app support. I held onto my Nokia until MS killed it.
I've had an iPad pro with a keyboard cover as my daily driver for a couple of years now, for work. I use it for hours a day. I wish it was a nice android tablet.
Before the iPhone existed, I was creating Excel files in Windows CE on a Siemens Pocket PC Phone Edition and was able to email in invoices from 15 miles offshore and have my check waiting when I got to the dock. The iPhone came out, Touch Screen Windows CE went away and it was several years before I regained the practical functionality I had in that device. It’s only real shortcoming was the screen wasn’t sweat proof, and would act weird until it was dry again under the bezel.
The Galaxy Fold with Samsung DeX is the closest thing. It's literally what Riley describes, right down to "fold it and use it as a phone." I use my Fold 4 this way on a daily basis - it is my single PC, tablet, and phone.
I love that my work laptop has a touch screen. Do not want to work with a non-touch screen device ever again. Scrolling. If working in cramped spaces (car, couch, plane) it’s super convenient to have the touch
I love when Riley starts discribing his ideal mobile computing thing and it's literally just Dex. Like if how's the kind of person that would just use something like a Chromebook, Dex would be more than enough. You can even game on it with some apps, but it's not supported very well since probably only like 0.01% of Samsung users use it
Most games work well enough on DeX unless they don't support controllers (which they should - Genshin Impact I'm looking at you). Emulation is great though. The Fold 4 runs PS2 emulation without a hitch.
Given the App Store generates more money for developers than any other model. The issue is that developers do not see a market for touch first apps. It is easier to build an app on the web and use it on any device. The only developers for iPad Pro apps are those that can port their existing apps or need off-line features. There are a few pro apps on iPad doing well, but most are software as a service now.
It would be interesting if there was a device similar to what Riley envisions. I think we could have 1 single device that can be used as a tablet/desktop and or even a phone. Assuming the main device has the CPU embedded, it got me thinking about external GPU's and how it may be possible to connect your main "puck" (as Jonathan calls it) to a dock of sorts that is connected to peripherals, an external GPU, network cards, storage, ect. The modularity is endless!
It's called the Galaxy Fold with Samsung DeX. It's literally what Riley describes, right down to "fold it and use it as a phone." I use my Fold 4 this way on a daily basis - it is my single PC, tablet, and phone.
My opinion on iPads comes from a perspective of being an artist. My PC and Cintiq are my main devices, my iPad is my away from home drawing device. I like my iPad, it works great for my needs but it if it was possible to have a MacOS variant I would buy that. Why? Because some projects can only be done on my PC due to software limitations by the iPad. If I was able to install all the software on both PC and my iPad I can jump between the two more often and not feel so tethered to my office. Basically I'd prefer the iPad to be a Macbook alternative for those of us who don't need a Macbook.
The ipad is one apple product i buy, believe it or not it carried me in highschool/college and i always have it next to me. Its also pretty cheap at under $300 and they are supported for a long time.
I think the tablet form factor has a lot in common with handhelds in general (e.g. steam deck). The formfactor encourages casual use. Its more comfortable to use while lounging, easier to take with you, quicker to boot up and do something quickly. But whats frustrating to me about the IPad compared to the Steam Deck is that the IPad got more powerful over tinr and could also do serious work but is held back by software. We have power at our fingertips but Apple just makes it very difficult to access.
Jonathan’s last spiel about how different physicality needs different user interface paradigms to me is an argument for what Riley is trying to say - that is, when you dock the iPad in the folio thing (especially with an external monitor), then you are sitting at a desk and would best interact with a desktop like operating system. Ergo, the iPad should support being used as a desktop device when it is docked to such peripherals. IMO.
@@zackzeed I had the S6 and the overall experience was super buggy, not saying that the iPad doesn’t have bugs, but it feels smooth, the Samsung felt weird to use and unreliable, after a few months it was already super slow. I had 4 iPads since and even the oldest was still pretty snappy after a couple of years. That all said I really wish we could have side loading and real customization in the iPad. My experience, would love to hear what you like about the Samsung.
I’m getting rid of my iPad 12.9 for a MacBook. I used my iPad for a year in place of a laptop, but it just doesn’t replace a laptop. I thought stage manager was going to change things, but it really didn’t. It just was a hassle.
As a person who uses stage lighting software and similar apps (Eg. The music sequencer Bitwig has a touch friendly mode, the control software TouchOSC can be great for interfacing with music, VJ and lighting software...) I lament apples reluctance to allow decent touchscreen support on MacOS Form factor arguments.. I hear it, I don't fully agree, but also if you're using an external monitor and keyboard (usb touch screens are pretty affordable now) with say... a Mac mini, or a MacBook, you can set things up to have any form factor you want! I'd love the option even if it was proper support for 3rd party accessories.
There is something called Samsung Dex, I don’t know if it’s powerful enough to use it as a fully fledged PC but for basic web browsing and documentation work it can be used as a pc alternative
just one quick correction. There are no APIs that us devs can use to support stage manageing apple (for some studpid) reason did not even give us the abilty to detect if our app is in stage manager or do anythign about it, be that re-sizing, decing what window to open when our app is asked to open a URL etc. The app store distubtion does not effect the abilty to support stage mangaer if there are no apis we can use. And apps outside of the app store would not be able to do any more features than well designed apps from the app store.
Riley, I think the closet thing to that is like a Steam Deck, works as a desktop, and can consume content on the go. Would be nice if ipad have a Samsung DEX feature though.
I’m an engineering student, so here’s my workflow. I have a Windows (eng software) desktop, big screen, good hardware, and I do my simulations and data processing on that. I have my iPad to take notes in class with the pencil. I use it for email, content consumption, and rough design sketches, which it is awesome for. I then also have about 20 apps on my iPad to replicate the functionality of a basic terminal, where I write reports and diagrams that need to be precise, or sync things with my main Windows machine. The touch first experience is fantastic, and I don’t want it to change. But given Apple’s vision, I need to carry around a laptop and an iPad. All I need is a terminal. And a terminal fits well into the interface of an iPad, because you don’t need a pointer, it’s all keyboard, which means you don’t need to pick up your hands, or use a mousepad which emulates a finger. It would for sure be a power user thing, but you can hide it! It’d be a game changer for so many people who can almost use it as their main mobile computer. It’s the ideal, “I just need a terminal,” device.
I've watched WAN show for so long I thought this was some segment that I missed where both Luke and Linus were missing and it became a Riley and Jonathan show.
3:05 : I agree with that - I`ve got an iPad pro (late 2017) with Logitech Combo (keyboard) and a mouse (M590 BT + dongle, two devices) + Apple Pencil + pencil : I almost don’t use the mouse. But, what is nice with the dual finger/pencil + mouse : the location where I touch and the pointer are indépendant (Not the case on Windows, which is sometimes annoying)
Great video, I love Talklinked :) I think Riley has a point at the end with the 1 device fits all need, I think we would still use a phone as it is more practical to carry around and use for short periods, but the current iPad Pros are basically macbook air behind a touchscreen, I don't see why they could not connect to a dock and be used as the computer. Many users already do this with their laptop and usb-c or thunderbolt dock to have a better desktop experience with their laptop, and they have been doing it for years.
My girlfriend's surface pro 8 is maybe the coolest tech product I've ever used. There is something transformative about the actual realization of the "piece of glass that does everything". Apple could be there too I think - but they are so afraid of cannibalizing sales between iPad and Mac that they have locked themselves out of a superior product space
19:32 - An iPhone is DEFINITELY powerful enough for medium-duty desktop use. iPhone 14 Pro would be at #9 on the Geekbench single core CPU score for desktop computers. It would feel very snappy. And multicore is like a good 6 core laptop. Android is not quite there, but a flagship android still performs like a $500 laptop.
with the ipad pro lineup apple should adopt the same back-end as the mac os but keep the same system GUI. they should also keep different names for both OS'es so you can know if you're installing an app that will makes sense for the way you're gonna use it. that way developers can just adapt the front-end to touchscreen if they want to make their productive apps available to the ipad, not code it from the ground up. it would also make for a more coherent experience, as a certain expected behaviors on one system would also happen on the other
and they don't need to get rid of the app store, mac os has it too, but you should definitely be able to install apps from other sources (at least on the pro lineup)
Dex mode on Samsung is essentially what Riley wants. Those phones that have it are powerful but I'm sure apple could do the same with their iPhones. I'm sure many of the latest iPhones are more powerful than my s21
I have a Surface Pro 4. Sometimes when I'm out, I hold it like a tablet or stand on table and watch CZcams which uses the touchscreen. Pen lets me sign documents too. A PC is still essential for more powerful applications, games, etc. I have a Galaxy Tab with keyboard. They're light, apps run quick, Samsung Dex for productivity. Can do some light work without the need of a desktop OS. Also apps on mobile are numerous and important. You can't fly my drone with your laptop. My home security, my mirrorless camera, my action camera interfaces only with mobile devices. A huge load of IOT devices are only controlled with iOS or Android. Making the need for a mobile OS device almost 100% necessary today. Both a traditional laptop with touch and pen and the tablet OS having extra input options are hugely beneficial when it comes to these.
Imo I think Jonathan and Riley are both saying the same thing. Riley's thinking more holistically and going from end experience to functions. While johns does the exact opposite going from each boxed function to a completed system. Some other dude said it, the tech is here it's just splitered, m2 processors, Androids openness, and Samsung Dex capabilities. Companies just need to figure out how to put it all together.
After getting an iPad 7 years ago. I can’t live with joy my iPad specially for my work. It’s an essential equipment I could actually switch my phone for anything but I must have my iPad
Canonical/Ubuntu tried to create a "convergence" OS to dock a phone and it became a desktop version of Ubuntu. Both experiences had major UX issues. That was 10 years ago. This is a very old problem.
Been using a Spectre X360 2-in-1 for a few years now. Do I often use the tablet mode/touch controls? Not really but I still enjoy having them. If I want to watch something late at night I use it in tablet mode when I'm getting ready for bed. It's also been great for when my niece comes over. We'll go outside and enjoy the weather while watching her favorite shows.
While an all-in-one solution of course sounds like a wonderful idea like you guys are talking about, Apple or any other company is never going to have the motivation to do so when segmenting their product lineup provides so much more profit and security. If you're Apple and looking at the fact that you have three healthy, profitable, and diversified product lines, the sum benefit to consolidating that to one product just isn't there. Jonathan said it best that Apple just needs to figure out what exactly to do with the touch tablet interface of the ipad. I think sometimes it's too easy for people interested in tech to forget that at the end of the day it's business, marketing, and economics that have huge influences on the choices these companies make.
In a world where complicated productivity necessitates a keyboard and mouse or desktop/laptop setup, AND the iPhone exists for content consumption on the couch, what gap is the iPad trying to fill? I've always had this problem and I honestly don't know the answer.
Noting that if the gap in use case is too niche, it doesn't justify the expense of another device, or the time required to manage it, as minimal as that effort might be.
I use touch on my Windows laptop all the time. It's way more convenient than having to rely only on the mouse. I got so used to it I will sometimes try and touch the desktop screen. I don't use it in tablet mode though. But touch is way more intuitive for me.
So I am an Android user, LG G7. We had a summer teambuilding when everyone gathered in the office before moving off. We all work remotely normally. The communication was poor, so it turned out that we are supposed to work few hours until the time it is booked at premises. I did not have my laptop with me. But I had my G7. It took me 20 minutes to install the work mode, find a good dock - and I am just doing my work with an external monitor, KB, mouse and network all through my phone and the connected dock. Okay 10 more minutes to fiddle with the settings and get used to a different windows management. But then all I needed to work worked just fine. Office, TFS, gitlab, Teams... No problem at all. There is ZERO justification why ANY device that has a CPU in it cannot do the same.
I had a windows 2-in-1 for years (surface pro knockoff from lenovo) and it ran windows 10 and i literally disabled tablet mode because it was so bad. only ever used in desktop mode even if i didn't have the keyboard connected.
I have a preset on my fold 4 where I hace WhatsApp, the browser on desktop mode and voice recorder to deal with clients on a daily basis, all while using a Bluetooth mouse and keyboard. And he says phones are not powerful enough for desktop stuff?
The way Jonathan and Riley can sit with raised voices and argue for and against the same features, come to the same conclusion, and still cut each other off is amazing.
Jonathon was cutting him off much more than Riley was. It was actually incredibly annoying TBH.
listening to jon make an ass out of himself by having no argument (as all apple fans do) is hilarious
@@jonathansoko1085 ^ THIS. How anyone who truly understands tech, can buy into the apple ecosystem and defend it without coming across like a complete jackass is beyond me. It is such a flawed perspective on every level, fundamentally.
@@jayp25 I'm in every ecosystem and defend them all. They're all good.
@@stinkothestooleater4490 BASED
This feels like two friends, who are slightly drunk, having a fun argument about things that don’t really matter but that they care deeply about because they’re buzzed… and I’m loving it :)
Those are always the best arguments
Jonathan is Straight Edge
ipad still looks like a fisherprice toy for kids, the GUI is childish
@@girlsdrinkfeck because it's made for childish minds
@@girlsdrinkfeck the UI on androids is functionally similar, because being that easy to use is literally the point of UX design. Meanwhile the androids become ewaste twice to thrice as fast, and are only my preference for people who are going to lose/drop/break whatever they get anyway.
Riley is describing Dex mode on Samsung devices. It's great.
They don't talk about it because they don't want piss off Apple
dex mode works too idk why red is saying that phones aren't there yet
@@MallocFree90 ...you think LMG is worried about pissing off apple?
@@Junebug89 he is delusional like a lot of people that are way too invested in hating apple
@@Junebug89 yes because they will not send anymore devices before launches.
Riley’s “Dream” was actually the direction that Canonical wanted to take Ubuntu in about ten years ago. The idea was an Ubuntu phone could be docked to a larger screen to become a tablet, which could in turn be docked to a workstation with mouse and keyboard to become a full computer. Unfortunately phones, especially those running Ubuntu Touch weren’t anywhere near powerful enough for this to happen.
Samsung dex
They also didn't get enough funding
@@darin7553 would disagree, just phones weren't really strong enough yet, would say they are more than powerful enough now for a lot of users.
Time for a refresh now that phones are more than capable.
His dream is literally the Galaxy Fold with Samsung DeX.
I think they both need to try Samsung's DEX. Just so they have an concept to compare to when talking about Riley's dream scenario and Jonathan's view on keeping the two ways of interacting between devices separate. There are parts I slightly agree with Jonathan and slightly agree with Riley but not all the way for either so I'd almost want to see a part two after they've actually gotten to play with more 2 in 1s, touch laptops, using mobile apps on desktops and DEX
THIS. A thousand Times THIS.
I use DEX a lot. and it's GREAT for the things it is designed for.
Jonathan used DEX and found it interesting but not necessarily great in the Mac Address video do iPads have any competition in 2022 where he used a samsung tablet for 10 days.
@@U1TR4F0RCE I didint know my note 10 could do it till that video and now I use my phone when I'm out in the garage for projects instead of a laptop.
@@U1TR4F0RCE Looking at it though, he used it while still in tablet mode rather than with a keyboard or using it with an external display... which I suppose it's more than Riley has used it though 😆. Though I can't say if he's did more with it off camera though so there is that. I would prefer they both have a deeper dive into it. Not even saying that it would mean they'd love it or anything, just so they'd have a better idea to compare against especially in discussion of what Riley would want the iPads to accomplish
Samsung Dex is good but I think Microsoft's implementation on Windows 10 Mobile was better and would be better today if Windows 10 Mobile wasn't discontinued in 2017 (feature updates) - 2020 (security updates) and that they had added Win32 application support.
I'm just waiting for Dex to support X11 and Wayland applications (through a Debian or Fedora Linux runtime environment like on ChromeOS)...
The way I see this is Jonathan is in denial and can't see anything other than "Apple is right they can't be wrong unless I myself don't like it" but Riley is "Apple is wrong unless I like it then they're finally doing it right"
We could've just posted this summary as text tbh
@@techlinked xD wow, I think Jonathan and Riley were a little bit more nuanced than that.
@@manuelsputnik I know they got into it more than that but the feeling I got from it was what I said. I just thought it was funny lol
@@techlinked I just gave you your 69th "thumbs up" for this comment. Nice.
Nope, Jonathon does wholeheartedly criticises Apple, he sees the flaws He is jot "fanboying" he just likes it generally. The people who like things most will want them to improve more.
LOL I love how Jonathan's argument is essentially: if you don't like how it works, you're doing it wrong.
He drunk the Apple kool aid. Pretty much most of his arguments are "Apple is doing it right but you people misunderstand". No, we don't misunderstand. We just happen to think Apple is doing it wrong because we've seen Microsoft, Google and Samsung do it right
@@franklingoodwin except that isn’t horsts argument. Horst is saying the issue is the control apple have on the apps which can be used on the iPad.
@@eomoran That's not all he said though is it?
The Apple core philosophy.
@@eomoran The OEM has no business having control over my devices.
I really think these two should make a video trying Samsung Dex on one of Samsung's flagship tablets. It's great as a desktop experience for basic tasks, but you can turn it off and use it as a regular tablet the way Horst likes.
I bought a Tab S8+ and couldn´t be happier. Twice during the week I take it to work to use as a regular notebook acessing my desktop remotely, giving me full access to my software. The rest of the week it sits next to my PC and acts as a Touch Portal screen. Best of both worlds.
Horst didn’t have a great experience with DEX earlier in the year.
@@Edino_Chattino I do the same but still bring my laptop because of SAP due to my job description includes processing of POs but our company don't want to pay another license for S4hana which has a mobile app.
Another thing is I hope Microsoft updates the PPT app that does not only mirror your screen when sharing your slides.
@@Edino_Chattino how do you access your desktop remotely? Is this IT deployed software? Or your personal solution?
@exxonrcg its a feature in the drop down menu.
I forgot my laptop last week and used Dex a full workday. It was a great experience and worked incredibly well. Also I wouldn't ever remove touch support on windows on my XPS
Jonathan is one of those people who complains that features shouldn't be added for others who want them because he doesn't want to use them so no one should have it and that is the most frustrating type of person ever.
i mean could you imagine how insanely powerful and functional an apple version of the surface book would be with the M2 where you get mac os (interface) while docked to the keyboard base and ipad os (interface) in tablet form, they have all the puzzle pieces to bring the ultimate laptop/tablet hybrid but they wont do it because they can charge 2x more for each thing separate.
In the Steve Jobs era, this wouldn't be some tiny figment of our imagination, it would've happened and be hailed as the greatest thing since FORKS were invented. With Tim Cook at the helm, forget it, dude's only good at one thing: fatten his own golden parachute. Everything else is a matter of "just how much can we squeeze out of a gullible Apple fanboy before they squeal".
@@johnnycheung5536 I don't Steve Jobs would blur the line between phone and desktop to the point where both devices lose their identity. It would be bad for apples marketing, and it would be much more difficult for them to lock it down
That's not the reason he's against that. What Jonathan fears is dilution of the touch first ux and iOS devolving into a mutated mess like windows 8. And he is right in so far as that yes, every different way of interaction needs a different, separate ux catered to that mode of interaction. What he does not consider though, is exactly what you describe, having both modes of interaction in one but keeping them strictly separated.
@@neruwu except every other major os is working out just fine at this point with touch, keyboard+mouse, and controllers i use all three inputs on windows, android, chrome os, and linux. More so it's apple just doesn't want to make their products too independently useful so that they can keep people thinking they need to buy each type of product always (though they should know by now their super fans who do buy everything would do it regardless).
@@johnnycheung5536 thats just how the WHOLE industry is. not just Apple but everyone. corporations are maximizing their profits. e.g. NVIDIA and AMD set ridiculous pricing so their new GPUs won't drop old GPUs prices. Intel started really improving their CPUs only when AMD managed to catch up, because big gains in performance drop prices on older stuff which is still selling so less progress = better for them. AMD removed V-cache from Ryzen 7000 so they won't have +40% generational gain and destroy its own Ryzen 5000 pricing. V-cache is a tech thats tried and works on 5800X3D, there is no reason it isn't used on 7000 CPUs other than limiting gains.
enjoy the world we are all living in with artificial product segmentation, artificially slowed down 5-10%/year max of a technological progress, and ridiculous prices so that companies can have 10x margins and make hundreds of billions in profits. all thanks to people buying overpriced crap.
Johnathan - Artificially lock things
Riley - Unleashed the nipple
hes not saying artificially lock it, hes saying each device should play to their strengths, and he doesnt think macos plays to the ipads strengths.
Here's the answer -
Samsung DeX experience but with the M1 iPad.
Allow the UI to become more KB/M + Large Screen friendly when docked.
I can't think of any reason Apple isn't doing this other than "don't be poor"
Apple want to sell more devices, so obviously they have an incentive to NOT make any of them the "one device" device...even if they had that incredibly cringe "what's a computer?" ad campaign.
Any iPad with A14 or newer should be capable of this. Really iPhone 12 or newer should also be capable of this!
@@AdamStansbery the standalone desktop access and window management is just not great (I mean macos in general doens't have good window management when compared to any other modern operating system)
@@aravindpallippara1577 I know. It could still be done. It's not really a hardware issue either it's software.
Same reason they don't make a 2-in-1 laptop, or heck, even a touch screen one, so their products don't cannibalize each other ever, because they want you to buy into their "ecosystem" (walled garden). The competition doesn't exist to them, because come hell or high water, they will make it a matter of haves and have nots, that you need ALL of their devices to have a experience that isn't annoying. And then everyone else copies them as best they can. Apple will NEVER be honest and say "don't be poor", but they is their reason. Sorry for the length, Apple's nonsense annoys me sometimes.
17:30 Riley just described a z fold 3. I'm actually surprised Samsung Dex wasn't brought up in this debate. It's surprisingly functional.
Only if the fold had an m1 class processor
@@topethermohenes7658 yep, samsung should've made Exynos with AMD graphics years ago but they didn't for some reason. Most likely because such a chip would make all their current gen phones obsolete and basically would destroy mobile market. just Imagine every phone is a Steam Deck capable of running PC AAA games but with a normal smartphone size.
the fact that Steam Deck exists shows that there is no technological reason we can't have that. or couldn't have had that like 2 years ago. the only reason it doesn't exist is corporations greed and desire to predictably make billions selling pretty much the same slow crap year after year.
@@rawdez_ they tried too milk more on their current exynos that's why, damn i think I'm salivating on the thought of an underclocked, passively cooled ps5 class APU on ARM
@@topethermohenes7658 >I'm salivating
yeah, me too, I'm waiting for that since like 2012 and i've been salivating from like 2019 after their announcement, hoping they would finally end this nonsense with mobile gaming sucking really really hard. but nope. at this point I've just buried all my hopes and don't really care anymore just hating on all corporations for everything they are doing. f them all.
I have one *very* explicit use for the iPad 12.9 inch, and that's for reading sheet music. It paired with a foot pedal is unparalleled in functionality vs. regular paper sheet music. Other than that, I've really failed to find a genuine use for the iPad for my own usecase; it can't do most of the things I would even need a laptop for, and my desktop is just so much more capable than any laptop will be for the foreseeable future.
*shrug*
Honestly i've been thinking about this too, and i think i'd love an even bigger ipad for sheet music 😂
Would a 2 in 1 laptop folded into tablet mode be able to do the same thing, plus allow for music creation? I only use my iPad for handwritten notes but once GoodNotes is available on Windows next year, I’ll probably abandon even that use case in favor of my 2 in 1 laptop
I’m in the same boat as you. My main reason for getting the 12.9” M1 iPad Pro was forScore. Since I’m usually playing in orchestra as the lone viola player, not having to stop playing to turn a page and also having all sheet music with me at all times makes the iPad an incomparable tool. Having the option to annotate music in multiple colours/opacities and then being able to easily share the music with bowings and notes in PDF form helps so much. It replacing all my school notebooks and being a great media consumption device makes it even more worth it for me.
If you’re a musician that has multiple orchestras/choirs that they routinely play/sing in, having a tablet for all your music is a thing that once you get used to, you can’t go back. But if I weren’t using it for sheet music, even just using it for school would make me have to think a lot more about the cost being worth it
Same. My iPad is for comics. That's it. It's niche is large format where a laptop won't due.
For my family iPad is for recipes as well as wordle and online crosswords.
Jonathan is so stubbornly locked into this idea of product segmentation that he refuses to see Riley's view of a well designed and well implemented OS is actually beneficial for all users. I used my Chromebook Pixel LS from 2015 (until a few weeks ago when it died) about 50/50 between touch and trackpad. The OS was flexible enough to allow for that and I love the hell out of it. Riley is on the money with the singular simple device for lounging that can be powerful enough to do light work on. The moment somebody figures out that balance, it's all over. Let's face it, most office work is NOT demanding. For the stuff that is, a different class of computer still exists for a reason.
Also Jonathan's argument of "shoehorning" desktop features to ipad is obscene. If the two OSs merged, they would theoretically have the combined developer manpower to build a better, smoother operating OS.
It almost upsets me that somebody with such closed minded views could be under the LTT umbrella.
Then again, that's S.S.D.D. from a place where the top guy triggered every Elon Musk fanboy on the planet by trashing a Tesla.
well keep in mind, Jonathan is also the one who believes the perfect keyboard for him is one that clicks so loud with every button press that every person in the starbucks or apartment complex would hear him working. That's kind of a "me first, forget everyone else" approach to technology.
No amount of manpower can change the objective fact that the two different modes of interaction demand different UX design. What they both need is a Dex mode for iOS.
Just threw Dex on for the first time through my docking station and S22 Ultra because of some of the comments here. It's pretty awesome. Many apps are clearly not desktop apps. But the actual desktop/windowing functionality and mouse support felt basically perfect.
I was seriously surprised. If it had a proper library of apps to utilize it to the fullest it would have some serious practicality. But even the existing apps felt totally usable and useful on a large screen through windows. It really feels like "Riley's Dream" has already been designed, it just needs development, or for Apple to copy it.
And as far as iPadOS goes, Dex basically seems exactly how it *should* be working in order to complete its evolution into a proper universal productivity machine.
i have both the iPad m4 and the Samsung S8 Tab Plus and if i'm too lazy to bring my laptop around, i'll just bring the s8 tab plus, due to the versatility of it. IF you use kiwi browser, you're capable of installing chrome extensions on there (albeit, might not be perfect for some extensions so results WILL vary) BUT in terms of multitasking goes, i find it better on samsung or android than it is on the iPad even with stage manager. the iPad icons look way more sharper than the android ones but i'm not sure if it's my eyes or something but with all the glitz and shine, it still feels like a powerhouse engine running a boat with oars only. I can understand the fear of making it into a full desktop mode for Apple, due to their sales of their other devices like macbooks reducing but can't you give a good desktop mode? they already have iPad apps that essentially are desktop tier apps in some cases.
To me, their fanboys are dumb and anyone who says, i don't use a function, therefore, it doesn't need to exist have very little imagination to potential usage; maybe not for them, but at least, for those who can use it. I rather have the function than not have it when i need it. Thus, i feel less bogged down if i use the android tablet like samsung's rather than the iPad.
The only thing i wish was that android tablets, when i plug in to an external monitor, would extend the display or give me the chance to have two displays without using Dex.
the "mouse" on iPads suck balls. it feels like it's actively fighting me to where i want to go even though, it's allegedly mimicking a finger. feels very annoying. i don't understand why slack on android sucks for tablet so so much. i usually use the web version but the iPad has that working perfectly fine. i also would love to see android support external cameras for communication apps like zoom or whatsapp. If they do this, i really can ditch my heavier laptop for my samsung tablet.
As of right now, not there yet and perhaps will never happen as devs would need the incentives to allow different cameras outside the built in ones.
Riley is 100% right. That single device that does everything has been the dream for years now. One device. One OS. One set of data. Multiple interfaces for when you access to a mouse vs touch or large monitor vs small mobile screen.
Perfect device would be a rolling sceen device. Rolled its a smartphone. Unroll to make a tablet. Put a keyboard flap on the bottom and it starts the desktop os.
Samsung has the vision
But why make one device they charge 1k for when then can sell you three form factors for 1k each....
It's called the Galaxy Fold with Samsung DeX. It's literally what Riley describes, right down to "fold it and use it as a phone." I use my Fold 4 this way on a daily basis - it is my single PC, tablet, and phone.
more of this please, love the format
From what ive seen of the samsaung dex feature- i wish stage manager was that, its still entirely a mobile os but gives a extra skin flavor by plugging it into a mouse/keyboard
Best title from the LTT crew in a while.
Are you sure? I think "Riley attacks Jonathan with an iPad" and a photoshopped thumbnail would get more views.
I’m an iPad user for the last 10 years and Jonathan is the only one that’s ever been able to relay the reason I use my iPad daily. I’ve been on the iPad Pro since their first gen and 100% agree this is a consumption device first in its current state, even with a keyboard I will always get off the couch and use my desktop pc to type every time. All my CZcams consumption, mobile gaming and social is on iPad. Even though it has a massive unleashed potential, it will never replace a computer for me and only if third party app stores are introduced will we ever know how to leverage that power in its processor and it’s form factor.
I am also a iPad user and a developer. I agree with Jonathan as well that the iPad should remain a touch focused device. However the iPad and the App Store shouldn’t be so locked. I think that in some ways Riley is right that with more freedom will come more desktop like apps. But, that is the price of innovation. Ultimately though, its hard to get behind making apps when you are going to get gouged by apple, especially when it comes to devices like The iPad Pro’s that are different dev platform on their own. To sum it up its a niche market, that is difficult to develop for, and you will and up with a significant pay cut.
The iPad should stay as a touchscreen tablet and should NEVER become like a laptop.
It a quick device you can just pick up for looking at email, odd bit of shopping and the watching of CZcams videos.
Apple just want to turn it into a laptop device so they can start charging you big bucks for it and that should not be the case.
heck yeah more horst and riley!!! once a week talkshow at least!!!
Not possible. Riley have to write for many channels along with weekly movie podcast.
Adding this will burn him.
I want more of this so much absolutely 10/10 format with great hosts ❤
I think I understand what Jonathan is saying: instead of trying to make a "professional" all in one device like Riley is proposing, he thinks Apple should be exploiting the possibilities of the tablet form factor by making the platform more open to developers. Rather than being an all-in-one device, it could be part of a main hub or setup that integrates with everything else. Kind of like a monitor or peripheral device. The tablet form factor may or may not be fit for everything after all.
If his perspective is similar to what I summarized, then I can somewhat understand it.
We love talk linked
this comment was written with a real keyboard on a real monitor connected to a phone being used as a desktop with Samsung DeX
HOLY CRAP! I just discovered Windows 8.1's KMS/VL situation where KMSpico is a popular choice for activated bypassing.
This is great. Let's have more of these two together.
Everytime I hear Johnathan I am reminded why I am simply not an Apple person. Smart move to have him start another channel he probably says everything an Apple person wants to hear!
He actually doesn’t. He’s been critical of apple a number of times on the Mac Address channel.
@@mikeb.4597 he has, but he is still here in this video arguing against consumer choice which is Apple's whole bag. What he does disagree with is the things that bother him and only him. He never sees anyone else's complaints as legitimate. There's always a fanboy excuse - but Apple don't want you to use your iPad for that. But you have a Macbook Pro for productivity, why would your $1,000+ iPad with the same chip also be able to do productivity stuff. It's only for the iPad stuff!
At this point Apple has made a mess, the iPad isn’t a computer and is limited by Apple. The iPad Pro with the Magic Keyboard weighs more than an air, while using the same chip. It’s limited by the App Store, and is a consumption device more than for work. A 299$ 9th Gen iPad can write notes, edit videos, all the same as the previous pros. When you add a keyboard and connect to an external display it’s still clunky. I used to use an iPad for college but moved to a mac since Apple adds a single feature every year.
Great show. Needs b at least 60mins if not 2 hrs, Riley is a great podcaster
Imagine having a beast of an soc that is the M2 but have its potential hampered by the company you bought it from.
M2 is not hampred, infact for apps that support iPadOS and macOS that use the full chip (GPU, CPU etc) they tend to complete tasks 5% faster on the ipad than the MBA since on the ipad nothing else is running so they do not need to share any resoursses with the background chatter of the OS or other applications.
the Chip is not limited by the OS at all, you end up infact with more addressable memory on an iPad than on a mac with the same chip.
Basically Riley wants an apple version os Samsung dex
This is genuinely great content and I would watch a full length show like this
22 minutes isn't full length?
@@RachelDavis705 not compared to other shows they do, like WAN
In theory, it isnt too difficult to just adjust the UI/UX for say an ipad or modern phones when connected to a display. You can just have it switch to a desktop-like layout once connected to an external monitor with a mouse/keyboard and switch it back to when disconnected. I also disagree that modern phones cant run a desktop-like environment for light usage. I remember using a raspberry pi 3 attached to a display and it ran just fine for basic browsing/ word editing. Most modern phones(especially the higher end ones) are easily able to deliver a chromebook type experience since they are far more powerful than something like a raspberry pi
Apple has basically infinite money, so it isn't a dev problem, and they could force compatibility like they forced other things on devs. Samsung DEX proves that what you said can be a reality. I'd use it if I wasn't to darn used to Windows. Apple's chips are iirc leagues ahead of even Qualcomm (their next closest competitor in mobile chips), so if they wanted to, they could thoroughly embarrass Samsung. Instead, they do what they've always done for as long as I can remember, and pretend the competition doesn't exist. I'm a university student, and I've seen more issues with professors that use macs as compared to the one professor that used DEX (the fancy new EPSON projectors in some of the buildings support Miracast, and Dex will work over them normally.
I think the iPad is an absolute one fits all device for students.
I started using an iPad (pro) 2 years ago for uni, and I use it every single day as a journal/notebook. I haven’t touched a piece of paper or pencil in years.
All of my notes are written on it. All of my homework is scanned and done on it. I’m in software engineering, so all of my flowcharts are done on it, and I also use it to test the mobile experience of web development on the iPad. When I’m laying in bed, it’s my TV.
I don’t use it as a laptop experience, but students could literally buy the $50 Logitech keyboards, open up Microsoft/Google Docs, and start typing notes, or even do Power Excel/BI if they have the Cloud tier.
The iPad replaces a typical laptop AND journal, for almost every student major, besides Architect/Programming students. I would never code on the iPad… I imagine CAD isn’t on it either.
Had a violent flashback to the cheap windows 8 laptop I had with a terrible touchscreen… what a simpler time 😂
2:10 "no one wants to reach their hands up" as i look over to my work laptop with a touch screen i use almost exclusively for navigating 😂
Agreed. Apple's app distribution model is a fundamental issue.
As a mobile app developer, the development and publishing process for iOS has a lot of barriers that deters, if not prevents, developers from making an app for iOS with the main barrier being access: You simply cannot effectively develop or publish an iOS app without using XCode, which is software that is only available on MacOS. It's a frustrating reality. That said, developers would be more interested in offering better app support for iPads once Apple makes XCode and app distribution available for other platforms, like Windows.
macing xcode for other operating sytems would not have much effect at all. And would be a massive amoutn of work, evne if your just talking about the SDK compiler stack and you would need to bring your own SDK linux support might be possible but windows support would require a massive re-write of the entier stack, not to mention how on earth your going to run the simlu.ators ? simpluators on macOS are not VM this is how they have (ok ish) prefomance. The only way you would ever be able to run simluators on other non darwin kenrals would be for them to be VMs (just like android development) and we both know how bad and (uselss) those are.
XCode will never be officially ported outside MacOS unless Tim Cook has an aneurysm and is replaced by a visionary that doesn't flinch at even the *slightest possibility* of FAILURE.
@@johnnycheung5536 makes no sense to port to other platforms as it would cost a lot of develop time and would don't be of any use.
@@hishnash just say it how it is - Apple silicone is a piece of junk until they open their walled garden. but 1) never gonna happen 2) iSheep and glamour instagirls are still buying Apple crap because they don't care that its overpriced and its great at making insta posts - dumb people don't use any devices for anything serious. simple video editing is like the maximum of isheep needs and its great for that.
@@rawdez_ apple silicon is no more locked down than intel, amd or any other chip vendor. In fact if you look at the runtime it is more open than modern intel/amd systems as when you boot your os only your code is running there is no intel manamgnet engine that has supper powers over everything.
This was a great format for tech linked. The ability to debate a point was really well done. Especially since it was focused on one topic without wandering off…unlike some shows on the same set 😂
classic apple. "You use our products how we want you to." classic apple fanboi, "Yes sir, how much?"
I feel like the Steam Deck is not very far away from what Riley is wanting. Just slap a USB-C dock on it, and it becomes a totally usable desktop. Granted, with the learning curve of Linux, but it's a pretty easy to use distro.
You should do more of this, definitely. Let's pit Jonathan against every LTT hosts and watch him transform. :)))
He looks extremely annoying to work with. He’s constantly cutting Riley off. Responding rudely. Taking issue with words like “sideloading” for no apparent reason. And generally just has an air of superiority.
@@___DRIP___ so o sum up, an apple user
@@jayp25 The question is whether he’s playing into that stereotype, or whether that’s just him though.
@@___DRIP___ linus loves him. riley is the kinda guy to find that stuff funny. i doubt that he acts the same off camera. everyone develops their own persona when in front of the camera.
Every time it is so hard to listen how protective and defensive he gets over apple and their products
2:57 riley you made such a good argument that he needed to take a break to gather his thoughts... Lol 😂
Loved this video! Only a couple things I wanted to add that were almost addressed but not quite:
1) Windows 10 tablet mode was an awful experience for me on my midrange 2-in-1 (screen auto-rotation basically didn't work) and Windows 11 made it twice as bad, to the point that I had to go into Settings and manually change the screen rotation every time I wanted to use it in portrait. My $300 Chromebook works 10 times better as an actual 2-in-1 and is so much more intuitive in tablet mode all around (reasonably sized buttons/UI, phone-like gestures, and rotation that actually works).
2) It probably isn't powerful enough by Jonathan's standards, but any Galaxy Fold should do a really great job of that '3 sizes in 1' experience. I don't use DeX all that often but it has come a long way and seems pretty underappreciated for how capable it is, and it certainly has (at least in my opinion) a better tablet-to-desktop interface than the iPad.
I have a high end surface pro (2017) and I love it. Never had issues with screen rotation or the tablet experience in general. It might be a firmware thing?
@@AbnormallyOld the ongoing success of the surface models was one of the things that made me think the argument was crazy. This is already a settled issue. Some people like to wear Chelsea boots, some people like Oxfords or Brogues or loafers or Vessi... whatever those things are. The only reason I haven't replaced my laptop with a proper 2-in-1 (tablet plus keyboard detachable as 360 things do NOT count) is money. But a lot of people love the form factor. It's undeniable at this point.
Samsung DeX is a perfect desktop replacement for basic use.
It's funny that Riley mentioned Linux at the end, because I was thinking of a Linux powered device that kind of matches what he said about an adaptable device: the Steam Deck.
It has the console ui, tuned for the form factor and controls, but you can also set it on desktop mode, plug it to a dock, and write the next episode of Techlinked while having the steam Deck screen play a CZcams video on the side
As a windows tablet user (for art) amounskt iPad users the iOS control makes Ipads generally means all apps are touch first and very user friendly. Whereas a hadare identically windows tablet ends up with generally simular experience more powerful but cheaper and more powerfull apps. Also I am saying this as someone raised on linux for desktop so natural familiarity or bias, both OS models work depending on who wants to use it.
I wanted to know about Pimax Portal+View thing or Pimax's "VR 3.0", what's up with that?
I had a windows 10 phone and one I got specifically for continuum. The website browser experience was totally fine. It was the equivalent of using a Chromebook, obviously not as good as any decent speced laptop but more then fine.
I loved using my surface 3 as a touch based device. Microsofts problem is that they didn't get more apps on the device. I would have loved not having to go through the web to download stuff.
That was the problem with the MS phone OS. In my opinion it was the best phone OS, but there was hardly any app support. I held onto my Nokia until MS killed it.
@@waggy401 agreed. It was my favorite and still is.
I've had an iPad pro with a keyboard cover as my daily driver for a couple of years now, for work. I use it for hours a day. I wish it was a nice android tablet.
Love TalkLinked but some of this editing is rough.
(Edit: okay I think I saw Riley doing some camera cuts live, that makes more sense)
Before the iPhone existed, I was creating Excel files in Windows CE on a Siemens Pocket PC Phone Edition and was able to email in invoices from 15 miles offshore and have my check waiting when I got to the dock. The iPhone came out, Touch Screen Windows CE went away and it was several years before I regained the practical functionality I had in that device. It’s only real shortcoming was the screen wasn’t sweat proof, and would act weird until it was dry again under the bezel.
I think the closest thing to what Riley wants is a steam deck running MacOS
An iPad Mini with a telescopic joystick thingy could be interesting, if side-loading was a thing....
The Galaxy Fold with Samsung DeX is the closest thing. It's literally what Riley describes, right down to "fold it and use it as a phone." I use my Fold 4 this way on a daily basis - it is my single PC, tablet, and phone.
I love that my work laptop has a touch screen. Do not want to work with a non-touch screen device ever again. Scrolling. If working in cramped spaces (car, couch, plane) it’s super convenient to have the touch
I love when Riley starts discribing his ideal mobile computing thing and it's literally just Dex. Like if how's the kind of person that would just use something like a Chromebook, Dex would be more than enough.
You can even game on it with some apps, but it's not supported very well since probably only like 0.01% of Samsung users use it
Most games work well enough on DeX unless they don't support controllers (which they should - Genshin Impact I'm looking at you). Emulation is great though. The Fold 4 runs PS2 emulation without a hitch.
Given the App Store generates more money for developers than any other model. The issue is that developers do not see a market for touch first apps. It is easier to build an app on the web and use it on any device. The only developers for iPad Pro apps are those that can port their existing apps or need off-line features. There are a few pro apps on iPad doing well, but most are software as a service now.
It would be interesting if there was a device similar to what Riley envisions. I think we could have 1 single device that can be used as a tablet/desktop and or even a phone. Assuming the main device has the CPU embedded, it got me thinking about external GPU's and how it may be possible to connect your main "puck" (as Jonathan calls it) to a dock of sorts that is connected to peripherals, an external GPU, network cards, storage, ect. The modularity is endless!
Samsung Dex? Have your heard of it?
check out asus rog flow z13
The Asus tablet PCs with DGPUs come closest so far
It's called the Galaxy Fold with Samsung DeX. It's literally what Riley describes, right down to "fold it and use it as a phone." I use my Fold 4 this way on a daily basis - it is my single PC, tablet, and phone.
My opinion on iPads comes from a perspective of being an artist. My PC and Cintiq are my main devices, my iPad is my away from home drawing device. I like my iPad, it works great for my needs but it if it was possible to have a MacOS variant I would buy that.
Why? Because some projects can only be done on my PC due to software limitations by the iPad. If I was able to install all the software on both PC and my iPad I can jump between the two more often and not feel so tethered to my office. Basically I'd prefer the iPad to be a Macbook alternative for those of us who don't need a Macbook.
The ipad is one apple product i buy, believe it or not it carried me in highschool/college and i always have it next to me. Its also pretty cheap at under $300 and they are supported for a long time.
I think the tablet form factor has a lot in common with handhelds in general (e.g. steam deck).
The formfactor encourages casual use. Its more comfortable to use while lounging, easier to take with you, quicker to boot up and do something quickly.
But whats frustrating to me about the IPad compared to the Steam Deck is that the IPad got more powerful over tinr and could also do serious work but is held back by software. We have power at our fingertips but Apple just makes it very difficult to access.
i thought this was technews
Jonathan’s last spiel about how different physicality needs different user interface paradigms to me is an argument for what Riley is trying to say - that is, when you dock the iPad in the folio thing (especially with an external monitor), then you are sitting at a desk and would best interact with a desktop like operating system. Ergo, the iPad should support being used as a desktop device when it is docked to such peripherals. IMO.
Love it or hate it, iPad is still the best tablet on the market.
At least I never tried anything better than the iPad, would like if there were cool options as alternatives.
Edit: I wrote in a misleading way before.
@@zackzeed I had the S6 and the overall experience was super buggy, not saying that the iPad doesn’t have bugs, but it feels smooth, the Samsung felt weird to use and unreliable, after a few months it was already super slow. I had 4 iPads since and even the oldest was still pretty snappy after a couple of years.
That all said I really wish we could have side loading and real customization in the iPad.
My experience, would love to hear what you like about the Samsung.
@@zackzeed That is true, hope they catch up soon
I’m getting rid of my iPad 12.9 for a MacBook. I used my iPad for a year in place of a laptop, but it just doesn’t replace a laptop. I thought stage manager was going to change things, but it really didn’t. It just was a hassle.
That’s a lot of whining for a minimalist.
As a person who uses stage lighting software and similar apps
(Eg. The music sequencer Bitwig has a touch friendly mode, the control software TouchOSC can be great for interfacing with music, VJ and lighting software...)
I lament apples reluctance to allow decent touchscreen support on MacOS
Form factor arguments.. I hear it, I don't fully agree, but also if you're using an external monitor and keyboard (usb touch screens are pretty affordable now) with say... a Mac mini, or a MacBook, you can set things up to have any form factor you want!
I'd love the option even if it was proper support for 3rd party accessories.
There is something called Samsung Dex, I don’t know if it’s powerful enough to use it as a fully fledged PC but for basic web browsing and documentation work it can be used as a pc alternative
just one quick correction. There are no APIs that us devs can use to support stage manageing apple (for some studpid) reason did not even give us the abilty to detect if our app is in stage manager or do anythign about it, be that re-sizing, decing what window to open when our app is asked to open a URL etc. The app store distubtion does not effect the abilty to support stage mangaer if there are no apis we can use. And apps outside of the app store would not be able to do any more features than well designed apps from the app store.
Out of the whole LTT ecosystem, these videos are by far my favourite.
More of this kind of content. I like hearing the debates and different view points.... and it is also entertaining :)
Maybe it’s the lsd, but this is the greatest techlinked ever
Riley, I think the closet thing to that is like a Steam Deck, works as a desktop, and can consume content on the go. Would be nice if ipad have a Samsung DEX feature though.
I’m an engineering student, so here’s my workflow. I have a Windows (eng software) desktop, big screen, good hardware, and I do my simulations and data processing on that. I have my iPad to take notes in class with the pencil. I use it for email, content consumption, and rough design sketches, which it is awesome for. I then also have about 20 apps on my iPad to replicate the functionality of a basic terminal, where I write reports and diagrams that need to be precise, or sync things with my main Windows machine.
The touch first experience is fantastic, and I don’t want it to change. But given Apple’s vision, I need to carry around a laptop and an iPad. All I need is a terminal. And a terminal fits well into the interface of an iPad, because you don’t need a pointer, it’s all keyboard, which means you don’t need to pick up your hands, or use a mousepad which emulates a finger. It would for sure be a power user thing, but you can hide it! It’d be a game changer for so many people who can almost use it as their main mobile computer. It’s the ideal, “I just need a terminal,” device.
I've watched WAN show for so long I thought this was some segment that I missed where both Luke and Linus were missing and it became a Riley and Jonathan show.
3:05 : I agree with that - I`ve got an iPad pro (late 2017) with Logitech Combo (keyboard) and a mouse (M590 BT + dongle, two devices) + Apple Pencil + pencil : I almost don’t use the mouse.
But, what is nice with the dual finger/pencil + mouse : the location where I touch and the pointer are indépendant (Not the case on Windows, which is sometimes annoying)
Great video, I love Talklinked :) I think Riley has a point at the end with the 1 device fits all need, I think we would still use a phone as it is more practical to carry around and use for short periods, but the current iPad Pros are basically macbook air behind a touchscreen, I don't see why they could not connect to a dock and be used as the computer. Many users already do this with their laptop and usb-c or thunderbolt dock to have a better desktop experience with their laptop, and they have been doing it for years.
My girlfriend's surface pro 8 is maybe the coolest tech product I've ever used. There is something transformative about the actual realization of the "piece of glass that does everything". Apple could be there too I think - but they are so afraid of cannibalizing sales between iPad and Mac that they have locked themselves out of a superior product space
19:32 - An iPhone is DEFINITELY powerful enough for medium-duty desktop use. iPhone 14 Pro would be at #9 on the Geekbench single core CPU score for desktop computers. It would feel very snappy. And multicore is like a good 6 core laptop. Android is not quite there, but a flagship android still performs like a $500 laptop.
with the ipad pro lineup apple should adopt the same back-end as the mac os but keep the same system GUI. they should also keep different names for both OS'es so you can know if you're installing an app that will makes sense for the way you're gonna use it. that way developers can just adapt the front-end to touchscreen if they want to make their productive apps available to the ipad, not code it from the ground up. it would also make for a more coherent experience, as a certain expected behaviors on one system would also happen on the other
and they don't need to get rid of the app store, mac os has it too, but you should definitely be able to install apps from other sources (at least on the pro lineup)
Dex mode on Samsung is essentially what Riley wants. Those phones that have it are powerful but I'm sure apple could do the same with their iPhones. I'm sure many of the latest iPhones are more powerful than my s21
13:33 Man.... it's been years since I've seen a Ipad setting menu
7:49 I never wanna see Riley without a mustache again 🤣
I have a Surface Pro 4. Sometimes when I'm out, I hold it like a tablet or stand on table and watch CZcams which uses the touchscreen. Pen lets me sign documents too. A PC is still essential for more powerful applications, games, etc.
I have a Galaxy Tab with keyboard. They're light, apps run quick, Samsung Dex for productivity. Can do some light work without the need of a desktop OS.
Also apps on mobile are numerous and important. You can't fly my drone with your laptop. My home security, my mirrorless camera, my action camera interfaces only with mobile devices. A huge load of IOT devices are only controlled with iOS or Android. Making the need for a mobile OS device almost 100% necessary today.
Both a traditional laptop with touch and pen and the tablet OS having extra input options are hugely beneficial when it comes to these.
Imo I think Jonathan and Riley are both saying the same thing. Riley's thinking more holistically and going from end experience to functions. While johns does the exact opposite going from each boxed function to a completed system.
Some other dude said it, the tech is here it's just splitered, m2 processors, Androids openness, and Samsung Dex capabilities. Companies just need to figure out how to put it all together.
After getting an iPad 7 years ago. I can’t live with joy my iPad specially for my work. It’s an essential equipment I could actually switch my phone for anything but I must have my iPad
"Sideloading? No.... no... Install!"
Yes, this, very much this!!!
Canonical/Ubuntu tried to create a "convergence" OS to dock a phone and it became a desktop version of Ubuntu. Both experiences had major UX issues. That was 10 years ago. This is a very old problem.
Been using a Spectre X360 2-in-1 for a few years now. Do I often use the tablet mode/touch controls? Not really but I still enjoy having them. If I want to watch something late at night I use it in tablet mode when I'm getting ready for bed.
It's also been great for when my niece comes over. We'll go outside and enjoy the weather while watching her favorite shows.
Samsung Dex gets by just fine. Only limited because it's not running a full fat windows.
2-in-1 touchscreen in W10/11 is amazing when I'm working in my server racks.
Yeah we need more of these!
While an all-in-one solution of course sounds like a wonderful idea like you guys are talking about, Apple or any other company is never going to have the motivation to do so when segmenting their product lineup provides so much more profit and security. If you're Apple and looking at the fact that you have three healthy, profitable, and diversified product lines, the sum benefit to consolidating that to one product just isn't there. Jonathan said it best that Apple just needs to figure out what exactly to do with the touch tablet interface of the ipad. I think sometimes it's too easy for people interested in tech to forget that at the end of the day it's business, marketing, and economics that have huge influences on the choices these companies make.
In a world where complicated productivity necessitates a keyboard and mouse or desktop/laptop setup, AND the iPhone exists for content consumption on the couch, what gap is the iPad trying to fill? I've always had this problem and I honestly don't know the answer.
Noting that if the gap in use case is too niche, it doesn't justify the expense of another device, or the time required to manage it, as minimal as that effort might be.
I use touch on my Windows laptop all the time. It's way more convenient than having to rely only on the mouse. I got so used to it I will sometimes try and touch the desktop screen. I don't use it in tablet mode though. But touch is way more intuitive for me.
So I am an Android user, LG G7. We had a summer teambuilding when everyone gathered in the office before moving off. We all work remotely normally. The communication was poor, so it turned out that we are supposed to work few hours until the time it is booked at premises. I did not have my laptop with me. But I had my G7. It took me 20 minutes to install the work mode, find a good dock - and I am just doing my work with an external monitor, KB, mouse and network all through my phone and the connected dock. Okay 10 more minutes to fiddle with the settings and get used to a different windows management. But then all I needed to work worked just fine. Office, TFS, gitlab, Teams... No problem at all. There is ZERO justification why ANY device that has a CPU in it cannot do the same.
I had a windows 2-in-1 for years (surface pro knockoff from lenovo) and it ran windows 10 and i literally disabled tablet mode because it was so bad. only ever used in desktop mode even if i didn't have the keyboard connected.
What Riley is describing already exists. Something like Latitude 7320 or Surface pro can be used as tablet, Laptop or a Desktop with a dock.
I have a preset on my fold 4 where I hace WhatsApp, the browser on desktop mode and voice recorder to deal with clients on a daily basis, all while using a Bluetooth mouse and keyboard. And he says phones are not powerful enough for desktop stuff?