Narcissistic Grandiosity & Avoidance | Dr. Elsa Ronningstam
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- čas přidán 8. 05. 2023
- The interplay between grandiosity and avoidance is front and center for people with pathological narcissism or NPD (Narcissistic Personality Disorder).
Dr. Ronningstam's bio:
"Elsa Ronningstam, PhD, is a clinical psychologist in the Gunderson Outpatient Program and the Adult Outpatient Services at McLean Hospital, and an associate professor of psychology in the Department of Psychiatry (part-time) at Harvard Medical School. She is also a psychoanalyst, a member of the American Psychoanalytic Association, and a faculty of the Boston Psychoanalytic Society and Institute. As a longstanding member of the Boston Suicide Study Group, Dr. Ronningstam is also actively working on identifying, understanding, and treating suicide.
Dr. Ronningstam’s prime specialty is diagnosis and treatment of narcissistic personality. Over the past 30 years, she has authored over 100 publications and given over 150 presentations, lectures, and courses, both nationally and internationally. She was the recipient of a 2014 prize for outstanding service in McLean’s borderline personality disorder programs."
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I'm diagnosed ASPD+NPD... I can assure you being a narcissist is an incredibly lonely life; grandiosity alienates you from everyone.
After considerable difficulty I'm 'self aware' but most narcissists will never approach understanding of their own pathology or how grandiosity works as a mechanism.
I understand the resentment but it's important to establish some understanding and empathy for us as well.
Many of us have empathy for you as children. We can recognize that you didn't choose to be born into the situation in which you did your best to adapt as a young child.
What many of us won't tolerate is the malignant behavior in adulthood. Certainly, there are some who will tolerate it.
Some of us can see both, separate the two, and still hold adults accountable while maintaining our compassion for your early childhood experiences.
Bless you for doing the hard work on yourself. 👍💖
@le th you have a good point but in our society we tend to drop our empathy and turn our backs on people once they turn 18. This is a cruel reality. We are all damaged children in this less than ideal world.
@@le_th_ I appreciate you saying that first of all, genuinely. Thank you.
To be clear - I'm not saying anyone should tolerate being abused or endure like behavior; I don't think you're putting words in my mouth but this is not what I said.
What I'm trying to say - for your 'side' as much for us - is that almost all narcissists will not understand what is wrong with them or why.
Most NPD will reject the label after literal diagnosis... to approach and understand being trapped in a psychotic state is something only a few of us ever 'achieve.'
My own advice is that it's a net loss - for both sides - if you find out someone NPD is in your life... you have to cut your losses and move on as you can.
Again I appreciate your sentiments and best regards.
@@katiewarren443 Thank you for saying that, I appreciate this very much... it was horrifying to fully understand.
I try to meet halfway or assuage both 'sides.'
I do genuinely believe though that with a real understanding of the seriousness of NPD/grandiose state that the anger, frustration and resentment can be somewhat mitigated.
Take care.
Comparing Dr Ramani
I love hearing these doctors’ research & experiences. I think it’s extremely insightful. But I see no conflict between Dr Ramani ’s information and theirs - if you consider the context.
Dr Ramani focuses on helping victims of narcissistic abuse. There are 2 truths existing at the same time. One doesn’t cancel out the other i.e. Narcissists experience tremendous pain, but simultaneously, their symptoms cause them to hurt others. Those who are not taking accountability for their actions - are the narcissists that Dr Ramani discusses. If people decide to get treatment-great! But from Dr Ramani’s research and therapeutic experiences, it has brought her to a conclusion (about the amount of people that actually seek that accountability) that many people don’t like. But it’s data, not an opinion, as difficult as it is to hear.
Her target audience is people living with individuals at this moment that have no desire to change and are actively abusive. If a child was living in an abusive situation and couldn’t get out, how much compassion would you have for the parent? We could have compassion for the fact that the parent had a terrible childhood - but it wouldn’t excuse the abuse in the present. And what would you do to help a child that couldn’t get out of an abusive home? Would you not try to give them as much information, tools, support, validation, and help adjust their expectations, to help them cope with their situation? That’s Dr Ramani.
Disagree with her if you want. But I can hold space for 2 things being true at the same time. @DoctorRamani
I appreciate how she talks about people with NPD like they are humans instead of evil monsters put in this earth to cause pain and misery. They are people with disorders - that’s as far as it goes. I think we’re going to look back on some of the disgusting ways we have spoken about this group of people and feel shame about it. Just like we have changed our views on other mental disorders. Thank you for this channel, hopefully we can reach a level of understanding which promotes healing and change.
I do completely agree with your comment here, they are indeed people too. However due to the nature of the disorder - the lack of willingness to take accountability towards their toxic and abusive actions, the tag "monster" will apply for some time/forever in part - I think this is somewhat deserved after having a nasty taste with an ex from last year who has left me with some heavy trauma, she truly is heinously monstrous in some of her ways. Abuse is abuse regardless of any disorder or not.... but hurt people, hurt people. I do also accept that the negative stigma of PD's will push these people even further away from a diagnosis, and attempts at treatment. It's a difficult one - to hold them accountable, as this is what they are, but while also humanising them and showing kindness and empathy that everyone deserves on a basic human level - even if they lack it themselves.
While I sound somewhat contradictory, your comment is one of the reasons I have kept my subscription to this channel, as I am a psychology graduate myself, and the "Narc bashing" channels only serve to keep you in a negative mindset about these people.
When we feel shame about them, we are of course carrying their unconsciously denied shame? Shame is such a big theme under their superior-inferior dichotomy. Some enact lives in which they are in constant escape from feeling ashamed: homeless people, substance abusers, child abusers, prisoners e.g.. grandiose fantasies offer them all a way out. They believe feelings of inferiority so keenly (unconsciously of course) that they act them out. The whole process can be seen in all narcissists. Shame, inferiority, superiority, back and forth. That's their subjective experience, sadly. Only fully malignant narcissistic people (sociopaths) with no self-doubt would not have shame.
@@welshpokerman101 Your comment shows a lack of understanding in NPD. 'Abuse is abuse' is i fact on eof the slogans used on these channels that vilify us. What is it even supposed to mean? The abuse is part of the disorder. I am not sure that I have hurt people that badly. I wishe 'victims' woul narrate their story from A to Z so that we could see more clearly. I know what the abuse is about (several reasons) but it's taken me decades to get there and ven then, it doesn' mean you have solved the problem
Most therapist would fail to identify an nPD and would be very unlikely to know how to go about treating us.
About narc-bashing channels : they are busines running on victims need for hatred which require the narcissist to remain evil.
Narcissists are buying a new hous, or several to all these scammers who have no qualifications. They are much more destructive than us. They prevent recovery in victims and make money by viliying a clinical label.
@@bbyng7316 I think shame and fear of humiliation is more prevalent in ASPDs. We do have shame but the real problem is guilt.
@@bbyng7316 Although it would seem that shame might be the problem in some NPDs, male NPDs like the Nameless narcissist. (who is really a narcissist but mentioned having only 3 emotions : anger, and I forgot the other - which is more ASPD (which again he isn't).
Seems that low self esteem is at the heart of this problem. The narcissistic injury prevents the person from risking failure. They have perfectionist demands. All aspirations in life have the risk of failure. That’s why the most successful people in life have one trait in common - self-compassion. If you fail, you pull yourself up again and keep going. You don’t quit due to an injured ego.
Extremely objective perspective. Lived experience and trauma lens wouldn't be this objective.
If only trauma allowed neuro-typical thoughts, feelings and behavior.
These are really refreshing takes.I’ve always felt great empathy for NPD, and now to hear professionals really address the pathology and human cost of such a disorder seems radical.
Npd isn't a problem for those who have it. It's s problem for everyone else
@@alllifemattersone might argue that alienating your family or friends is a problem for the narcissistic person. Or that bragging up one's hollow accomplishments knowing they lack substance is a problem.
I would never argue that people should tolerate abuse. Just that people with NPD may be happier with healthy coping strategies and skills.
@@EddieSlabb Hey Eddie, I definitely need to learn more about NPD and I may be reading more into the last sentence but I'm wondering about how people with NPD may be happier with healthy coping strategies. In terms of reciprocity and responsibility towards others I'm thinking it's not a matter of coping since that's for oneself. Skills I guess make sense in terms of interpersonal relating.
What this video seems to be talking about is it's not necessarily about grandiosity with people who are narcissistic, since you have the homeless population and such and I don't imagine all of them are delusional in a grandiose way but may be self absorbed in a negative way? I mean in terms of the diagnostic criteria grandiosity is only one and only 5 has to be met right, and one can be self absorbed without necessarily being grandiose.
@@markc5960 I'm just a simple fellow here, and hope I didn't over step. All I meant is narcissistic personality disorder may prevent folks from maintaining healthy relationships. I can have sympathy for those whose maladaptive behavior costs them. NPD does hurt others, but if I understand it, healthy people with coping strategies don't develop npd
@@alllifemattersthat is completely untrue. A lot of people with NPD skill themselves
Thanks. Trying to get out of the ditch myself.
I worked in homelessness for a couple of years. There was this one lady who I believe had NPD. She did not accept that she was homeless. She claimed that she was working undercover, to understand and direct homeless service delivery. Of course she took any opportunity show could to talk with senior managers and give her feedback about what she thought but it was clear that she could not accept the label of being a homeless person and that she would insist that we go along with her fantasy or she would get very angry.
I have to add that there were many moments of wonderful heart and compassion that I experienced in my contact with this woman. She had a false self but she also helped other people on the streets and protected people who were vulnerable. I hope she is doing ok but I lost contact when I changed jobs into a mental health role.
That doesn't sound like NPD but II like your compassion. Sounds like she was bipolar or schyzophrenic.
Else Roddington shows incredible compassion. Thank you.
tysm for making these. Its so great to listen to experts discussing cluster B when its not all about the people around the pwPD but the disordered person themselves. Hope is a wonderful thing
Grandiosity isn't a problem as long as you can maintain a clear vision of your real self and this idealised projected self (which is tied to the grandiose vision).
When you conflate the two...things get weird. A narcissist belives that they are the idealised self and ignores any information that doesn't feed into that.
There's nothing to work on or towards for the narcissist because they're already perfect. The problem for them is on the outside, where the world isn't acknowledging their greatness.
You can never be the idealised version of yourself, it's a mirage that you can walk towards but you never get there because you are always you, not an imagined you. You could achive things along the way and following this idealised self could be a positive thing.
This will probably be controversial but here goes... I've always thought that Americans have a tendency to be grandiose. It's tied to the national identity. "America is great" "The greatest country in the world".
"Land of the free, home of the brave".
I think you can look at national identity like an individual's identity. With each person carrying a part of that larger (national) identity inside of them.
So, I think that as a country, the United States of America is narcissistic. This perception of being great is grandiose. It's the issue of confusing the idealised self with the real self.
...and remember, that someone who is in that state will ignore all evidence to the contrary.
It would be healthier to say that America strives to be great. That would indicate there are flaws, that the country is a work in progress.
Instead, with the concept of "just being great because you are an American" it leads down a path of delusion and grandiosity.
(Other countries are messed up to... don't get me wrong)
So, when I see someone like Donald Trump become president of the U.S....I think that he is a mirror reflecting the worst part (or the hidden part) of the national psyche back to the public.
Ewww...
He's the best at everything, knows everything...
When he's actually a fool. If he could accept that he was a fool, he could then learn and grow. But that will never happen.
Donald Trump is created by the U.S.A psyche. He's not really the problem, he's a symptom or reflection of the problem.
But who has time to really examine themselves and see any if this... there's work to be done and money to be earned and so what if capitalism actually creates, encourages and rewards people like Donald Trump... sending them to the top of the pyramid.
I am intrigued and concerned about the NPD in prison/homeless populations point brought up. As much as it makes sense as a coping mechanism and narrative that gives those people a sense of control, my first jump was to wonder about whether there are negative biases against them in today's most recent research. Granted, this was just an anecdotal take, and no statistic was given, so it's hardly a broad generalization. Just a thought I had.
Especially in the US, those are two of the most abused and dehumanized populations with systems that enable their continued abuse and neglect by the community around them. Wonder is homeless/incarcerated population personality styles have some variety when nationality is controlled for. The odds that someone is literally exhausted, malnourished, and traumatized on a daily basis might mimic something else seems probable to me.
Yes I agree added to that emotional instability increases alot as a result of all the pressures and conditions you mentioned.
Also have to take in drug addiction among homeless. When I was in my heavy active addiction I very much mirrored a narcissistic personality.
@Gwen Marion Right, it's so hard, and not deeply truly you. Sadly using alcohol in some climates actually can help you sleep or stay warm on cold nights. Most opioid addictions start in doctor's offices; many opioid addicts could just be trying to control a severe, chronic pain.
Here, if I go past the junkie district, I always wonder if they are narcisistic too. Because they always have strange ego dramas that blow out of proportions. Who said what of me and who did what bla bla bla… a lot of rage too. So they fight there, go revenge each other, steel someone drugs by pretending to be a friend. …all these people don’t want to play by the rules. They even have to cross the street mid traffic!
@@LoveBeliefTruth You are right, htey don't want to play by the rules. They would prefer dying in fact. But you don't know why. What is behind and you are as unlikely to understand why one day as them tho play by the rules.
I think I have NPD and avoidance, but here in the country and the region where I live, I think there are not good professionals to treat me. And it's not grandiosity, there really aren't.
I like her, she is compasionate. Thank you for the interview
I say this with vigor…and I hope this changes how you see yourself…
@42 seconds she explains very briefly how the lack of narcissism can be problematic. Confusing? Remember this…
Narcissism is on a spectrum of healthy to pathological.
Healthy (confident internal locus of control)
Pathological (cocky external locus of control)
Distinguished by adaptive and maladaptive narcissistic traits.
Narcissism, is a trait (or traits).
Narcissistic, the trait expressions.
Narcissist, a pejorative for pervasive narcissistic trait expressions.
NPD, the non existence of insight with dominate and pervasive maladaptive traits so extreme it forms a mental illness.
Insight is the tool that locates where you are on this spectrum.
Pathological extremes are directly proportional to lack of insight it seems.
So as we all are on this spectrum it is crucial to not accidentally label oneself as a narcissist by mentally labeling narcissism as “bad”.
If this connected dots for you, it is your moral duty from now on to use this word responsibly & with compassion.
And mostly forget everything this person said. It is nasty anti-narci propaganda
Most enlightening. Thank you.
Wow I love it, these are such core issues too. For me anyway. But how empowering is it when we actually face our fears and try to acheive our realistic aspirations!
I've always felt there must be a lot of narcissistic issues in the homeless population, so I'm glad to hear that validated. It makes it even sadder that there is such a stigma about it. Like we talk about social justice and social welfare. But when it comes to the specific psychopathologies the homeless and disenfranchised often have - it's too 'yucky' for us ?or something? I wish she had spoken more on that one!
Quality content as always Rebbie 🙇♂
The narcissist must live with and embody shame somehow or other, inwardly or outwardly in the form of prison/homelessness.
@@bbyng7316 shame? Nope
Great conversation, Thanks for the dialogue with Dr. E.R.
Very interesting.
Thank you
Wow, very enlightening . I will be looking up every thing this Dr has written or done now .Thank you.
Woooah this got so interesting near the end!! I want to hear more of that.
neat idea to put different gels on each light for the two different cameras.
The topic of narcissistic avoidance is very interesting, but I find Dr. Ronningstam unclear.
What is unclear to you?
The train of thought and flow of speech. I'm not trying to be critical of Elsa Ronningstam. I thought that a suggestion on clarity could be helpful. @@ThreetwoOne-wu7ye
Well there is also avoidant personality issues so can you clarify? I don’t think I have NPD but certainly have used avoidance a lot due to low self esteem& anxiety
Experts are interiviewed by borderlinenotes and then go back to their practice. I am a vulnerable NPD who knows quite a lot. I don't try to make people what they are not. If you have questions feel free to ask. Just don't ask question ifs you feel you can't cope with the answers .
Is this just a narcissistic thing? Can this kind of avoidance be found for other reasons or in non-NPD?
Well narcissistic things are not necessarily full on NPD.
I need to listen bbut I would say that all PDs are avoidant and actually recent studies indicate that avoidant PDs are really vulnerable NPFs like me. ASPD work differently .
Now I'm waiting for all the commenters that come from the toxic "Dr Ramani" side of the narcissism discourse on youtube, and will completely misunderstand what Elsa Ronningstam is saying.
She's brilliant as well, just didn't see her bias until it was too late.
Guys, without getting into out-moded theoretical debates: splitting. It’s real. It’s a thing.
What if Melanie Klein made it all up AND was right? How funny would that be? What if all these theoretical perspectives are more or less right, at least more right than meds and online AI therapy? How funny would that be?
I haven't watched Dr. Ramani, guessing that's also on this channel you guys have made me curious. And who is Melanie Klein?
Anyway, my thinking is generally we should all be more informed and be aware of biases. I'm guessing some here continually keep up with new videos here maybe but as someone new I have to catch up..
@@markc5960 No Dr. Ramani Durvasula is just another professional in the field. She isn't on this channel though but she's on many others. Melanie Klein followed Freud.
So glad I’m not the only one who noticed that Dr. Ramani is so damaging and talks about things in a way how a laymen would appproach narcissism. Not with understanding not with love for the profession. I stopped watching her when she presented the idea that people with a certain type of eyebrow shape are all narcissists - then I knew we no longer talk about science.
My apologies, I'm having trouble understanding her - Is she saying the person who can't imagine themselves graduating is the one with NPD? Is this not a common thought when in university?
Is the avoidance of reality in superiority the corollary of the emptiness in their sense of inferiority? So interesting when she says they "avoid being known" because they also want the whole world to recognise them!!! I can't see any NPD without their superior-inferior ambivalence.
We have to remain the bad guys, right? If you want to elucidate this mystery let me know.
So narcissistic pathology is always ambivalent?
I don't recall anything in the video stating always, do you feel some aspect of how it was presented is underrepresenting the point?
@@markc5960 Well yes. I believe that ambivalence underpins all Narcissistic pathology, even at its milder levels.
@@bbyng7316 I am one. I don't know what a mild one would be. Anyway yes for vulnerable NPDs (all these videos are really about vulnerable NPDs who are the majority and were studied.)
I dated a real grandiose: no ambiguity, totally different.
But I haven't watched the video yet.
Oh.. and Avoidant PDs are actually NPDs (studies show that they are like me). The DSM is really a work in progress.
@@ThreetwoOne-wu7yeCould you give the name of the studies or a location to find them, please?
@@refreshingAnd what points? The grandiose is a problem,. having dated a man who matchedg the lack of self-awareness and extrastrong defenses, AND at the same time findeing a few women having been throught the same treatment (idealization, devaluation, discard), I was confident that was the grandiose type and maybe it was the case at some pont. I really wished Kernberg or someone would tell me. They are totally different.
I recently rrealized that what Kernberg et all called 'grandiose' was really me but more overt. But essentially the same.
Yet the grandiose is yet even more confusing than that because some shrinks would diagnose a grandiose sociopath as a grandiose narcissist because the NPD DSM guy looks more like a sociopath.
And even studies seem onfused, And even exprerts from the same school havane different theories so it's a mess.
For AvPD check a study AVPD resistance to treatment
For the different types check thee article provided as a support of the NPD wikipedia page (article by Yeomans). Bothe the Wiki page and the article are outrageous, presenting us purposefully as uncollaborative and exploitative, which we are not aren't their malignant is a lamb (the malignant is whatever). To me it is a Ted Bundy (corroborated), to Yeoman, Trump (more a sociopath).
Finally check the DSMV-TR section II and III
And that's as far as I can go.
NPD os a ,mess
www.migna.ir/images/docs/files/000058/nf00058253-2.pdf
Give me some feedback
She doesn’t seem to understand the narcissism very well. It’s more of a social phenomena, people who have a need to control others and their reactions for self image purposes. Actually, a narcissist would shoot down some having big dreams! Or aspirations as she says. Because it threatens their grandiosity. Now that is a problem…. She might be able to create a discussion with a teenager who cannot grasp the reality of her dream or the reality of society, but I doubt she could change a narcissistic adult. They would just move on from her and that’s it.
I know it not the case and I wonder why you want to see NPD this way. I know what I am talking about. You would be totally unable to debate with me. I am not saying this for some self-serving reason. I have grown out of my disorder, or at leat enough to know it is a pathology of the self.
You want us to be deliberately nasty. T hat's what you want. For some reason.
About your doubts regarding our capacity to change and your prophecies: same thing, self-serving.
You want many things. I wonder if you could be self-honest and ist the reasons why you want us to be the way you depict us here.
@@nailalchemy So what are you doing here with such a mindset? Fair game.... Who do you have in mind, Meghan Markle?
If you're a survivor of narcissistic abuse, don't watch this video. This video talks from the perspective of a narcissist. We don't have to feel sorry for a narcissist who fail to achieve their dreams. Many of us fail to achieve our dreams, but we don't go around and abuse other people. What a misleading video.
Don't be so fragile. You didn't actually listen to her points. It's good and right to understand the mind of a narcissist, because this will help you to understand what happened. It will weaken your self-conception as an psssive abuse victim; instead it will give you a more coherent understanding of your role in it and it will give you a lot of control back.
It’s not about feeling sorry for a narcissist. It’s about understanding the complexity. Truth be told, a significant amount of the population exhibits some amount of narcissism. Best to understand our own stuff, less projection.
It's talking about the quality of narcissism and how that can show up, not clinically diagnosed narcissists or anyone who has been abusive towards others even. If someone is just by themselves and fail to achieve their dreams, and yet is narcissistic to some extent, they didn't hurt anyone if they're just someone that's by themselves. People who are not full on narcissists and not totally abusive can have that trait to some extent. I would like to be informed rather than categorize people after I've been abused simply because that doesn't help me do any better. If we need to heal we can seek that for ourselves, and if we want to avoid abuse of any form in the future we want to see how that works, not just a checklist from a social media influencer who doesn't have a functional understanding as a clinician does.
Why can’t you handle looking at things that give a nuanced and factual perspective of a narcissists internal world? Odd. How is the video misleading? It’s literally stating facts about how narcissism manifests. There is nothing misleading. It sounds like you have your own issues. It would likely do you well to learn more about narcissism rather than blame, hate, and drag them. But that feels good to you because you don’t want to take any responsibility or look at even your own self in such a deep way. Why did you get involved with a narcissist? You likely have boundary issues yourself.
Please, feel free to head back over to Ramani-esque side of CZcams where you can keep labeling anyone you don’t like a narcissist and just point fingers.
I guess you think anymore with NPD is just supposed to end themselves and there isn’t allowed to be a part of the internet where they can learn and feel understood.
Thank you for posting and I love Dr. Ronningstam's shirt!