Voron Tap UPGRADE? FAST Nozzle? Construct3D at SMRRF!
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- čas přidán 21. 12. 2023
- Thanks to DiamondBack! ▶ t.ly/T9kdr :: Jacob from Construct3D showed off some REALLY cool research projects at SMRRF. An upgrade to the Voron Tap, and some research into a nozzle that could do 200mm3/s OR FASTER.
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That's why I love open source hardware development. The prototypes are not hidden away in some R&D lab. They are shown openly and other people can help to improve them.
Every time Jacob shows off something new, I just get so hyped. Can't wait to play with our Construct, but now I wanna see this 200mm volumetric flow heatbreak in action!!
Surface texture idea (might not work, but…) extrude-hone the pathways in the block. Extrude-honing is a process where an abrasive paste is forced thru the workpiece at significant pressures, smoothing and polishing the interior surfaces. It’s often used on hot-rod intake manifolds, among other things. 🤔
I think aditive-subtrative manufacturing would be easier... just like they do when manufacturing watercooling blocks.
Start from a cylindrical blank, remove material from the pathways (allowing a smoother texture), add material back where it was required, design so the aditive part is where texture doesn't matter as much.
Can be done in a single process on a 6 axis, or using multiple processes in a one axis, with a positional template.
another surface texture idea is to just electroplate it.
@@notstonks20 Could work - but care in selecting the process parameters would be needed; so that it wouldn’t wear out quickly. You’d want a coating that was both hard and thick… If I’m remembering correctly, it’s actually a vapor-phase deposition process, not electroplating, but… I’m wondering how thick diamond-like-carbon can get (I remember it being studied for use in engines, so… ???).
🤔
The look on Joel's face a few times in this video really cracked me up. This company really surprised him with that tech. That was fun. 🤣 High-5!
I don't think Joel was ready for what we had planned 🤣
Neither was I! Thanks for doing all the hard work figuring out stuff that eventually the rest of us will be able to benefit from.@@construct3d
A fitting location for discussing some wild ideas! Sanjay would approve I bet.
♥
That's an awesome design for a TAP mechanism. Nozzle probes are quickly becoming a standard even on fast printers.
Thank you very much. I love designing extremely robust but rudimentary systems, no extra processing needed, just a simple ol circuit.
@@johngallagher1905 We certainly do. You can find it here: github.com/Construct3D-AM/CONSTRUCT3Ds-Tinkering-Time/tree/main/rTap%20Plate
I use something similar on my diy plasma cutter, to just tap the nozzle on sheet of metal, to get 0 position.
@@construct3d do you plan on selling a machined tap plate?
@@TheLukernator Yes we do. fully machined from aluminium
those multiplexing nozzles might also have another fantastic benefit, they could be used as a mixing nozzle for true multicolour printing. i had some cads of one i was prototyping and its very similar
same issue as with 2 in 1 out or diamons style hotends: without internal micing, youre just getting tothpaste stripes.
@@Ucceah 6x coextrusion from any filament could look really interesting.
@@Ucceah 3d metal printing can easily incorporate internal mixing stages.
I just finished modelling an 8-in 1-out hotend for additive metal manufacturing, called "Coaxial Hotend [gd0144]", which takes *advantage* of the fact that molten plastic doesn't mix well to extrude true multicolour via the same effect as multicolour lithopanes, but rolled up.
Printing multiple materials that have poor interlayer bonding strength between them, as well as abrasive materials, is theoretically possible by encasing the extrusion in a "glue" filament, such as transparent TPU. Thus, the hotend is intended to be used in a "7-in + glue, 1-out" configuration.
@@glodigit thats a cool project. good luck the price for the manufacturing is scary, tho for the price thats possibly one of the most advanced hotends. will have to keep watch. hope you wont need to do a rev2 given the design is a unibody. a weird quirk im wondering about is the backpressure variation on each input, where youd have a pressure advance value for a filament but only for a specific input, something to test when its in the real world
I've seen more of Jacob in the past couple SMRRF videos then I have anywhere else. This man is going to have printers that people only dreamed.
Got to see this in person, I mistakenly just thought of it in the perspective of mixing filament. But makes a lot of sense, melting multi inputs at the same time is certainly more efficient, as long as you can guarantee feed rates. Look forward to seeing this commercialised to a level a maker can afford.
It was fab to meet up with both of you at #SMRRF, but this is new and mind-blowing content - superb interview!
its these simple ideas that rock. Such a simple solution, so elegant.
I'm sold on the multiplex hotend. I'll be doing some experiments at home for sure
The biggest issue I see with this nozzle idea, is retraction essentially no longer works the same way I would expect.
Maybe I'm wrong and the retraction can produce suction?
But balancing all that out, 6 extruders fighting each other, seems very tricky for precision.
You are 100% right. That's why too much retraction introduce bubbles into the filament that will be eventually pushed out, resulting in gaps.
but you don't need to retract more filament and you don't necessarily have to have 6 Nema motors, just one more powerful one coupled with 6 inputs.
I see the problem more in this strange design of the block, the holes should be straight, no, not so swirly, it would be easier to make them and they could be pushed through in case they get clogged.
you would be surprised at how controllable the 6 extruders are. Since they are all cloned to each other for control. You only need about 1mm of retraction to get good quality.
@@construct3d but you still use 6 drivers right? Just duplicate the instructions.
@@ralmslb For now yes, as adding extra drivers for testing simplifies the testing methods. but eventually we will probably try various setups from nema23 single extruder, 1 extruder per 2 filaments, or just straight up 6 individual extruders with 6 drivers
Brilliant! I was wondering when someone would try parallel filament input to one path, length to oozing relationship is groundbreaking perspective!
Great idea, really like the the contact switch.
Preheated filament experiment so the "lenght can be shorter as less energy transfer needed at nozzle distal heater?
Thanks and Merry Christmas
Why multiplex? Just do a flat filament circle inside the heat block and then rotate it into the nozzle. Total oozing distance will still be the nozzle length + the rotation section. 1 extruder, 1 path, no need to multiplex the flows/filaments. With 3D-printed heat block this would be even easier to adopt than what Jacob suggests.
years ago i was involved with the idea of using PE package straps of 3D printing. (it's dirt cheap per kilo and rather tough. would be great for bigger structural parts, furniture and the like) besides a crude proof of concept hotend we never went anywhere with it. but with some development it would work!
Jacob is an awesome genius!!!
❤❤❤Great video. Joel always does a great job of explaining the complex so that dummies like me can understand it. 😊
A company that does the research and SHARES IT!!!!!!
That’s awesome idea. That would even work for multicolores with less waste
The entire way this guy is supporting the open source community just made me a massive fan of Construct3D!
Cool technology! Love seeing novel ideas for complicated issues.
I love how we have come full circle, 3D printing is now making better 3D printers again.
I actually had a thought about this the other day that you could mix multiple streams of filament to do CYM color mixing but I didn't think it would be possible until seeing this...
FINALLY somebody is actually doin this! I really do hope it becomes a product.
So do I 😂
We are already working on version 2, which is much cheaper to manufacture, and generally higher quality. Hopefully this passes the tests as its just such an exciting and unique concept
I JUST got a mk4 as my 1st 3d printer.. took 3 days to build lol. So excited by what I'm making. I got a lot of filament too but stressing out a bit due to how humid it is where I live (stressing out about opening them)
Watching this I feel we're about to go from consumer dot matrix printing to consumer laser within the next 5yrs. So exciting. Now if only I could design my own stuff 🙈🙈
that heatblock is very interesting. I thought a few ways already how to possibly make it manufacturable, but alas, not my field of experise / business
8:20 I love this way of thinking, this is how Linux became what it is now, running the whole Bank infrastructure, space stations and it's Linux... made in a Garage by a nerd who wanted to do something and didn't know what exactly.
The 6 to 1 heater block seems like it could help with the 3mm filament melt issues mentioned earlier in the videos. Use something like Bondtech's CHT nozzle mentioned in other comments, but only the filament splitting aspect of it to split the 3mm filament into the 6 inputs of heater block. Maybe not 1 into 6 in one go, but 1 to 3, with each of the 3 getting cut in half to make the 6 total. 6 1.75mm inputs is still way more than a single 3mm, and I've got no idea if that 200mm3 would be possible off of a single 3mm input. Regardless, it's great to see people pushing the boundaries and trying to improve things.
Yessss I want CMYK++(white and transparent) nozzle
You are Awesome 👍‼️ Hahahaha i was waiting for someone with skill came out with this!
♥ when its finished, hopefully this will mean faster printers for everyone
I've seen similar concept for z axis endstops on plasma cnc machines
Damn it! They beat me to the punch on the hotend, although I have different plans.
this kinda reminds me of those diamond mixing nozzles from a bit back, maybe a modified one of those could also work
have a look @nozzleboss on twitter. He does some amazing stuff with a custom diamond mixing nozzle
this hobby is amazing of what people come up with. The high end printers almost never innovated, stratasys is famous for being stagnant. I have seen more innovation happen in the last 5 years than the previous 20.
I wonder if a filament braid that gets split before the heat block would work to let you have just a single extruder again.
200mm³ maybe 300!? Need to see this in action 😂 Hopefully Jacob gets it done! Good luck and I hope you succeed!
Only one hurdle remaining. Surface texture. That inside surface has to be mirror smooth to reduce friction. The 3D printed surface is like sandpaper.
@@construct3d Ahh, yes that makes sense. This is great to see advancements being made this these within the community! I love it!
Instead of merging 6 thin filaments into 1 output. Why not make 1 flat and wide filament and feed that into a custom heat block? This way you can probably cnc the heat block instead of 3d print it in metal. You also only need 1 custom extruder instead of 6 extruders.
Because its pretty hard to create a whole new plastic supplying system. But pellets might be an option, though maybe not for this 3into1 hotend.
@@philippeholthuizen ^^ This is the exact reason.
The filament manufacturing industry is really hard to get into. This way we can use all the benefits of current filament, but get speeds that encroach pellet extruders.
i have seen extrusion polishing, forcing a compound that carries an abrasive under high psi, that polishes the inner surface.
He says oozes due to pressure build up in the nozzle, but isn't linear advance/pressure advance meant to compensate for that? Also when the length of the melt zone determines the amount of oozing, why does simon from vez3d get away with 0,2mm retractions on his Goliath? I think there is something missing / forgot to explain. Also isn't the amount of oozing determined by the volume of filament in the hot zone because more material expands more when heated?
Also the sensor thing on the TAP, ive done that a year ago, although not in combination with using the nozzle as probe, but as a servo operated pin with a shoulder that opens a circuit when touching the bed. For those curious, the probe regularly achieved sub 0,0003mm standard deviation, often even 0,0000mm, so not detectable within a microstep.
My comment is not meant as critique, but should portray my thoughts about the issues he is talking about
Your right! But to keep the video in a timely manner I had to gloss over some aspects.
Vez and the goliath are a prefect example of one of the factors that induce oozing. TIME. By having a physically faster printer that can be more aggressive, you can retract less material, and can use lower pressure/linear advance because the flow is able to be more consistent.
Oozing itself has a relationship with pressure inside the nozzle, and volume of molten plastic above the nozzle. The pressure is generally a constant caused at the tip formation stage just before it leave the nozzle, but the volume of molten plastic above tends to be the largest contributor.
@@notepadgamer thanks for the answer. Since your heater design has reduced tendency to the added weight isn't much of an issue on bigger printers. You cant move fast enough anyway with desktop printers and typical nozzle sizes to utilise your expected 200mm3/s, at least not with current tech. I know simon achieved 2000mm/s (maybe even 3000 by now?), but that required a 48v system, special motors and external drivers with higher gate voltage
I wonder whether feeding six of the same filament would also help average out variations in filament diameter and give more consistent extrusion. Obviously not if you start all six rolls at the same time and there are systemic variations from start to end.
Rather than 6 separate rolls of filament, I would think it would make a lot more sense to just feed pellets at this scale.
@@Chad.In.Florida almost, this is aimed at a scale smaller than pellets. More towards the super volcano or goliath style hotends. Also 6 rolls of filament means that you can use 6x1kg and get 6kg worth of print before needing to change the reels.
for a pressure drop maybe you can force the hot fluid down a rough copper capillary tube wound like a noose and winded with heating coils
That touch idea is brilliant. Cant be used for things like pressure advance auto tuning but its great.
Yes, but unless I understood wrong it is jsut for ABL probing and isn't used later in print?
@@TheSanpletext Your right, its only for ABL probing. Its an incredibly simple design, aimed more at being robust and useable on any machine (as its just a circuit/switch action) instead of adding complex stuff like strain gauges
I might actually try this
Would a multiplex of CMYK and white filaments produce true color printing?
I'm excited about the nozzle seems very interesting. The plate though, I have mixed feelings about it, will quick and frequent z hops not affect it?
From testing so far we have done over 10,000 probe attemps and had a standard deviation of 0.0004mm. And because its held down with gravity, it always resets to the same position
that 6 to 1 nozzle can also be a RGB printer. My son was talking about something like this a few months back.
I'm planning out my first voron build and that tap assembly looks interesting. Is there a time frame when it might be available.
You can actually download it from our github github.com/Construct3D-AM/CONSTRUCT3Ds-Tinkering-Time/tree/main/rTap%20Plate
I love when a thumbnail confuses me then becomes extremely obvious after the video.
That hot end reminds me of the Geeetech A10T.
If they pull that off, oh boy the speeds... :D
I've seen something similar, and my concern is how well it will handle retractions.
I'd really like to see something like this for a multicolor hotend. Given that no one else has seemingly had any success with proper mixing of colors, I'm thinking of mixing pigment into a clear or white filament. Hopefully that's a bit more possible than mixing colored filament.
isnt that just what the Bondtech CHT High Flow Nozzle does? Splitting the Filament into different parallel paths?
No, I think the idea is having 6 extruders each with their own filament and then merging that melted plastic into one nozzle.
Would pouring (or fully sumbersing it in) a high temp resin and letting it drain and cure give a fairly smooth inner surface area? They'd have to oversize the hole, but it would be a super simple liner.
Couldn't that "in theory" be also used for mixing filaments and multi-color printing?
Man if their printers didnt have vrollers and has auto tuning Id love to jump on board. Really like the spirit and open-ness
6 Extruders, have mercy...
So I was wondering, you mentioned that you would put in 6 of the same filament. but if you were to ignore that, could you put in a bunch of different colors and make something similar to the tri color filament where it changes color based on perspective. The last question is could you also use this as a 1-6 different filiment types or colors or would the bend be to strong or the retraction not work well enough?
The initial idea was just to focus on getting raw flowrate, which meant single colour single material. But you are correct, there is no "mixing" in the nozzle, so dual/tri colour filament production can be done surprisingly well.
I have not tested multi material yet, as the retraction may cause an issue. But using all 6 inputs at once is surprisingly controllable
What if you create a cht nozzle for 3mm filament won't that also give you way more flow rate
Funfact, CHT is already 3mm filament compatible.
@@notepadgamer It's possible that they also used it in tests, because why not.
why not try this with the old e3d Cyclops? There was a 2 to 1 block but the 4-way watercooled heatsink might be usable for making a 4 to 1 block
Hey joel, i got my prize from the livestream!!:) thank you so much! I won a year of stlflix license. thank you so much for helping me start my business
I bought 2 SLM parts from JLPCB in stainless steel and they were 0.3mm out… Was a headache to get them fit.
That multiplexer extruder nozzle would make custom multi color interesting
nozzles have been available for this task for a long time. It's more about speed and not about many colors. For many colors you would need 6 Nema motors for each filament, so one is enough for what they do.
@@666Azmodan666 Yup, One powerful motor to feed all 6 at once. you can also do co-extrusion in the nozzle without needing to buy tri-colour filament.
Question for Jacob: What is the reason you chose such a large profile for your experimental heating block? Was it for performance or ease of manufacturing, or just the first shape that came to mind? Did you already try a more compact parallel design that mimics current heat blocks and heat breaks?
What about if instead of multiplexing filaments you were to use a 2.85mm with a 3-way split into one of these? 2.85mm split three ways gives you effectively three 1.75mm (roughly, it's slightly short) which can feed into this style of block and provide some of the same benefits while only relying on a single spool
You can just watch Joel's brain melting in real time as more and more facts are shared! 😂
that high five alignment tho
That was a meaty high-five, sounded like a gunshot in real life.
I’d guess it doesn’t mix the filament well enough to blend multiple colours or materials together. Being able to have continuously variable mechanical properties throughout a print seems like much more of a useful technology than just increasing the speed.
You need to speak to @Deckingman he has done quite a bit of research on multi input tool heads
i really really really want it to work
So instead of having 6 separate extruders. Why not have a shaft/gear system tied to one single Nema 17? If you line up each of the inlets in almost a V6 engine configuration, you could almost think of the shafts like the camshafts on the engine? Each of the shafts being geared together means they would feed filament at the same rate, and a Nema 17 with enough torque would be able to drive it?
I wonder if you could "multiplex" the filament by going with CHT's 3 way splitter nozzle to "split" the filament into the other meltzones of the big nozzle.
Or would that not work because it's still the same 1x1.75mm filament and the entire point is to NOT push that one filament strand even harder...
Maybe push a 3mm filament into a "splitter"? mhmmm...
Breaking a circuit vs completing a circuit for Tap would get rid of the Z offset altogether, no?
Precisely. Any nozzle can be added with no need to modify a Z-probe offset value. Perfect positioning everytime
You still need to tell it how far above the tap point to start printing, which will probably vary between filaments.
You mean electric connection between the hotend and the build plate? I don't think pei sheets conduct electricity.
You still need z offset, and different materials and build plates need different offsets. You can set that in gcode, and save it for each.
@@eslmatt811 no z-offset needed. There is a little gold pin in the side of the bracket which the extruder sits on. As soon as the extruder touches the bed, the pin breaks contact. Its an absolute zero offset setup.
The circuit is between the tap plate, and the extruders bracket.
To make this multi path hotend be pragmatic, better go for pellet feeder rather than pushing 3 or 6 filaments with individual extruders, this way you can have a single screw extruder to push pellets into the hotend uniformly, higher pressure in all paths.
"Oozing has a relationship with length"
Why not just pre heat the filament so that it takes less time in to get to the required temp in the melt zone?
Cant you use one extruder and kinda CHT it, but just into that? Sure itll be a longer load, but it should still work, no?
Perhaps someone can explain, the nozzle moves up for probing, how is it secured down for printing?
The weight of the extruder, the pressure of the filament being pushed down.
There is basically no z pressure, also minimal xy force as well from the actual printing. The xy force comes from acceleration.
@@eslmatt811 Ah, so I suppose another advantage is its softer if you crash your nozzle into the bed. 😁
@@eslmatt811 Bingo! Gravity is enough of a force to keep the extruder in place while it prints, and because all the extruders are getting so very light, it takes minimal force to actuate it.
The main problem i see with having 6 inputs and 1 outputs is matching the amount of material your supplying to the nozzle. You have 6 different roles of filament, with different diameters and slightly different properties. This will make it really difficult to calibrate the extrusion multiplier.
Not sure that makes much sense. If anything multiple means you have a more accurate estimate as noise is averaged out.
That nozzle idea makes me think that someone should have invented stranded filament already. Might be slightly more complicated to change filaments, but it would solve the same issue while only needing one extruder. Six 1mm filament strands from a 3mm sized filament (or whatever the math turns out to be) would heat a whole lot faster than 1.75mm.
It's a good thought but it doesn't work so well in practice, as can be seen with stranded wire as opposed to braided wick. Strands work great for transferring electricity across the surface of each wire, and for reducing the tip area within a braided wick to fuel flames, but when you're trying to transfer heat laterally then each layer of strands insulates the air between it and the next layer inward, and each pocket of air further insulates that next layer of strands. It would have the opposite effect from what you want, unfortunately. Keep up the thought exercises, though! The one you come up with tomorrow just might be a winner!
@@claws61821 Thanks for the encouragement. I was referring to splitting and heating strands individually, not heating a single big rope of filament made of strands. The complicated part would be automating the filament splitting from a larger diameter filament to individual strands. I'm sure a clever splitting mechanism can be designed for that which also doesn't break the thinner (and more delicate) strands.
What about tesla valve shape of heat block ?
Well, tap is already had it's proper upgrade to VR2 rail which both reduces mass, reduces carriage offset and increases rigidity of a carriage, uncklicky method is cool and everything but somehow it works worse than proper optical sensor
i don't know how to reach the guy but for the nozzle idea , just use a alluminum cilinder and drill it six time at angle
Interesting way to think! Not for Consumers but for industrie interesting!
solution, use the correct linear rail... You do not need 2 rails, hats just overcontraining and adding wear
Fucking genius!
I would spend 50$ on a Kickstarter project with the goal: do the research and publish the results as open source. No product, no sticker. Just the whole data as open source. Would be a big benefit for community and society.
So it's kinda like color mixing extruders.
What benefit does this bring compared to FGF? I’m not understanding how managing 6 extruders is going to be a win.
Mostly size. the FGF style tends to be much bigger. This concept is not supposed to replace the FGF process, but instead targets the extremely small formfactor that FGF struggles with.
Imagine having six rolls of PEEK filament to feed one nozzle lol.
that nozzle is basically a diamond-hotend?
I know how to build the multi input block on a 5 axis CNC
CYMK!!! This scream CYMK then in live the software will control the individual extruders ratio to adjust the color.
My mind keep wanting to say Constructed instead of Construct 3D.
Now you know why we chose our name as we did. Gotta have a little bit of fun even with the name.
Wait so construct3d just took all the stuff that voron team threw away, (double rail, inverse switch, etc) and made a tap out of it
Lol
what a nerdgasm
Isnt this just unklicky tap?
Make a nozzle that can change size.
great idea .. maybe for industrial use., but no hobbyist wants to buy 6 spools per color.
the only thing im concerned about now is that some company patents it. If slice could patent fastening a heatblock with f*cking screws and keep "defending" it, surely someone is going to the patent office with this design as I'm writing this comment.
Did he get the memo on Cht nozzles?
CHT nozzels are mentioned in the video but they wouldn't be enough for their goal of 200 mm³/s of throughput.
cht increases the heating surface and they also increase the surface of the filaments so that it can heat up faster.
If we compare it to "diamond" nozzles. 5 filament 1 nozzel
@@andreas.grundler its the solution. Current cht nozzle is for 1.75mm filament and has three channels. Could make a Cht nozzle for 3mm filament(which he bashed) with more channels. This sounds like an absurdly overengineered solution.
@@ivyr336 I don't know if a nozzle with more than 3 channels would be strong enough to withstand the pressure from the plastic. When I look at a CHT nozzle there seems to be hardly any material left.
@@andreas.grundler3mm filament. Would need to be larger. It's the exact same tech just scaled up. This sort of just smells like trying to circumvent the stratsys patent and ending up with an overcomplicated solution.