MORE INFORMATION On the Saudi Arabian Gold Books
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In this episode Hayden Paul and David Butler discuss the discoveries of gold plates and other metal books in Saudi Arabia. The original video can be found on @aroodawakening
The Stick of Joseph CZcams channel seeks to make the Book of Mormon accessible to all ages by making engaging, entertaining and informative content.
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I like the $3 vs $5 forgery analogy! My undergraduate degree was in anthropology, and I've had such a love for history and culture even after deviating from that career path. In my years of nerding out, I've noticed that forgeries often still hold some historical significance. A fake is often created from an original (whether the seller/manufacturer has the original or is basing it off of photos or documents or oral history). It's easier to sell a fake that's true to the original ($5 forgery) than one they came up with out of thin air or from really questionable sources ($3 forgery).
(I'm not suggesting that we throw out the historical and scientific analyses, and just claim these are real because we like them.)
Whether these plates are genuine or recreations/forgeries, there's still a lot of spiritual and historical value to glean!
exactly. if it’s a fake it’s a fake if something that is real.
@@scottmainsmusic1892 unbelievable how seemingly intelligent people are willing to believe the most outrageous things simply because the alternative would be too difficult to handle. Why dont you just pray about it? That is the LDS epistemological test. If you feel good, it has to be true regardless of what the experts say.
@@Geoff-mx8dkthe more you experience prayer the better you will understand it is not just a feeling.
Thank you so much! As a faithful person; I want to believe in them whole-heartedly and without reservation. However, people have perpetrated frauds against the saints in order to embarrass us in the past. Anyone with the eyes and ears of faith, will have great joy in this exciting discovery.
Like the kinderhook plates?
@@dr33776where did the kinderhook plates go? And why did someone go through all that trouble (and obtain the finances for the gold, hiring a metallurgist in making them along with an expert of Hebrew/Egyptian) for a set up, and not have this still on display of their intent was the discredit Joseph Smith or the Book of Mormon? These are questions I have and I haven’t researched these topics but I’m hoping someone could point me in the right direction in answering these questions.
Hey I’m part of the translation team. I help Dr. Jones get some other photos of other tablets. I could add more information about these situations.
Refute Dan McClellen with real info like he presents then. These are obvious forgeries.
I love the story. It’s fun. My relationship with the Lord is not in danger because of this also I still know the Book of Mormon is true because the Spirit told me so.
Me too
What do you tell the Muslims and Jehovah witnesses that have also recieved a revelation from God that what they believe is true? I tell them nothing, but what the word says...
Jeremiah 17:9
'The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?'
When we stray from Christs teachings.. we open ourselves up to being deceived.
Much love to you.. come to Christ and you will no longer be deceived. If you would like scriptural proof J. Smith is a false prophet see the test of a prophet in deuteronomy.
@@29darbsj galatians 1:6-9
Galatians 1:6-9
There are many deceiving spirits. Be careful and wise to not believe the lies.
2 Corinthians 11:14
So glad you guys are willing to review new information as it comes out, shows a lot of integrity
Or, here’s an idea. Before spreading this on their public platform, they could do some due diligence? What a novel idea.
There was no new information here. They just got around to realizing Dr Miles Jones is an absolute fraud and they’re trying to backtrack.
Now if only they would review OLD information before making a video about something that is obviously false; and leading so many to believe those falsehoods.
@@MaliqueDonSuch as?
Thanks for your testimonies of the Savior and his Church and our precious B of M. And your endless studies of history, artifacts, and evidence of the truthfulness of the Book of Mormon!❤❤
They are too ignorant to be embarrassed. Their justification is ridiculous. Notice they don't even dare give rather name of the Hebrew scholar they claim they talked to. That's called a red flag.
I'm still encouraged. I don't need anything to substantiate my faith, HOWEVER, I am surprised how easily everone is to dismiss this. Perhaps they have been hurt or let down with other forgeries, fair enough, but we are at the point in time where these things are about to come forth. Lets just wait and see. I pray for discernment but I also am looking for "the greatest manifestations of the Saviour's power that the world has ever seen". Exciting times either way!
Because it’s a nonsense fraud. You’ll see.
And people who aren't members are surprised by how easily members flock to a forgery. Then again the church itself is a forgery so, it is what it is.
@@TristenLammiDo you believe in God?
@@ryanwangen3723Everyone has said the same thing about the Dead Sea Scrolls, the Nag Hamadi, the Cairo Genizah, and any number of actual ancient documents. Your very strongly worded statement doesn't necessarily make it so.
@@lafeharris8471
You’ll see. I’m sure you want it to be something but it will end up being a big nothing burger fraud just like mormonISM.
1:22 - Jury is still out on authenticity, but there is reason to be excited now
2:08 - The known parties: the seller, the buyer, and the platform presenting the plates
3:39 - The plates present an 11-point correspondence with the Lehi story
7:16 - Two scenarios: 1) If genuine, actual gold plate books matching Lehi have been found. 2) If forged, the sellers still find the Lehi story totally plausible.
9:17 - The sellers, buyers, and platform all find the Lehi story plausible, validating it
11:16 - Even if the plates are fake, they show the Lehi story is considered plausible
13:43 - The iconography on the plates is non-Mosaic and matches a non-Deuteronomist tradition
16:48 - Connections to the temple ascent, Tree of Life, and upcoming book "In the Language of Adam"
18:23 - Examining possibilities if plates are a forgery and addressing potential issues
20:16 - Analyzing the text on the plates: potential use of ciphers, multiple languages, or mnemonic devices
23:56 - Discussing magic and amulets in ancient cultures and LDS parallels
27:11 - Possibilities for unreadable text: forgery, limited language skills, abbreviation, ciphers, amulets
31:03 - Using the Atbash cipher example from Jeremiah to illustrate enciphered Hebrew text
34:35 - Analyzing the iconography: potentially inspired by ancient coins but not direct copies
39:24 - Scholar's perspective: more proof needed due to questionable provenance
41:04 - Optimism the plates could be real, but the Lehi story is validated either way
42:11 - Issues with calling them "golden books", alternative possibilities like amulets
43:33 - Potential significance if plates are genuine Israelite temple objects
45:33 - Oral cultures, memorization, and the plates as mnemonic devices
46:17 - Catch-22 of forgery having to be both sophisticated and flawed
Thank you!!!
I am a believer. I am SO excited about this find! I feel sorry for those who do not have eyes to see...Because the Lord is giving us signs left right and over our heads to wake us up, and get us as a whole to repent and FOLLOW HIM. I know the Book of Mormon is true, I had a life changing witness and have stayed on my covenant path now for 25 years. I can tell you I feel the spirit strongly on this find.
This and the BoM are clearly frauds. Sorry I know you’ve based your life on a fraud but you’ll be okay.
LOL. You feel the spirit strongly on this find? And in there is the problem. Members and nonmembers of other faiths feel the spirit and then think something is true because of that feeling. LOL. These little gold plates are fake!!!!! LOL.
It's very likely a fraud.
@@timhazeltine3256 I wouldn't jump to that conclusion yet. We were promised that more would surface in the future. I have a feeling this isn't a fraud at all. And the fact that it was found on the path that Lehi would have followed tells me it isn't a fraud at all. GOLD Plates, aren't commonly fraudulent for reasons you wouldn't have to stretch to imagine.
For people of faith, we know how to seek confirmation of truth: prayer. It IS that simple. It is when political factions get involved, that seeds of doubt are put out there. Every person who has real intent to know truth, has access to know truth, through prayer and the power of the Holy Ghost.
I look to the Prophet also, because I’ve received an answer from God that he is my guide for Gods kingdom today. I also trust in the scriptures we have now.
I 222e22222d222222222222222 @@templesofjesus
Have you prayed about the Kinderhook plates yet?
This is a cool discovery if it’s real. But I don’t pray about these things. It’s science, archeology. It may validate information in the Book of Mormon. No evidence will ever prove the Book of Mormon’s truth. That’s a spiritual journey. Even if the plates of Mormon fell into the hands scientists, they would find a way to dismiss them. I think if Christ handed them to some people, they would still tell Him they weren’t real. So, cool discovery..yes. There will never be a smoking gun!
@@soultaker76 weird innit? Their "prophets" and "apostles" are alleged seers and revelators yet they knew not of these forgeries.
Authentic or not, it doesn't change my testimony one bit. ❤ I fully expected there to be at least a few people who would call it a fraud.
I enjoy the open minded discussion of the possibilities, with a bit from experts on both sides. I particularly enjoyed David's depth of knowledge with little treasures of knowledge that I have never heard before. Great job guys, keep it up.
Dave is giving us a snow job to try to take our eyes off the fact he was suckered into believing a forgery. The naivete is staggering.
I think the discovery of the areas that fit Bountiful and Nahum are much bigger discoveries. Assuming these plates are real, the Bountiful and Nahum discoveries would outweigh these plates. Still, the greatest witness of the Book of Mormon is reading it and praying about it… that’s ultimately what converted me in 2014.
The BoM is true, but delve into the churches history. The Joseph Smith Papers Project is a great place to start.
No bountiful has not been found. It needs to be an area with large trees.
Those frauds the Proctors from Meridian wasted A LOT of money in Oman, Khar Karfot claiming Bountiful was real. They found ZERO to support it. Transoceanic voyage claims from the BofM are a fraud, fantasy.
The Proctors spent a lot of other people's time and money in Oman claiming to be in "Bountiful" and have ZERO to show for it. There is no Bountiful, and Nahum is a very disjointed and unsubstantiated evidence. It is like finding a 18th century headstone in the UK with the name John on it...or Jhn rather. 🤦
@@Bazcole93 And a very large number of trees, and evidence of metal work, and long term habitation, and cultivation, etc. Yep, not a thing there.
Thank you for tempering your excitement and approaching this with some skepticism
Except for yesterday… Man I was embarrassed for the guy. so many members of the church are so easily duped and hyped with multilevel mentality.
They have egg on their face. They obviously were totally suckered by this clumsy fraud.
Yes, have to authenticate closely and carefully.
"it fits within the realm of possible artifacts" ehhhhh if we're talking the Land of Makebelieve, maybe. These are almost certainly forgeries.
Because? Easy to use words. Back them up. What specifically leads to forgery conclusion?
@@iknovate nearly everything about them ans the situation including the embossing technique and script used as well as the past history of these fellows having has fakes...
@@RyanMercer Sources to back up what you've said so that we can decide for ourselves? Where has it been established the sellers have a history of bringing forth forgeries? Who has questioned the engraving technique? Again, you've offered your conclusions, not anything to support why you've come to these conclusions.
@@iknovate you're welcome to do the research yourself. It's everywhere.
@@RyanMercer Typical non-response.
My Grandfather Cy Maughan could witch a Well, tell how deep and how many gpm accurately over 210 times. Cy never changed for his service because he believed it was a gift to be shared and if he charged he believed he'd lose the ability. Cy taught me and I'm able to witch water but not to the extent he could. You take a freshly cut willow branch in the shape of a Y bend it just right and as you walk when I'm over water the branch bends down. Its real and i cant explain it.
You can drill down and find water almost everywhere; that's how wells in rural neighborhoods work: everywhere has a water table and if you drill deep enough, you'll find it. And they tend to be about the same depth because the water table tends to be consistent over a fairly large area.
@@FabricofTime yeah but I'm talking about Winthrop,Wa area which is very very rural, he didn't do suburbs he did ranch, farms, homes on top of hills etc. He was able to find water when Well company's couldn't. He was famous for it in that arae.
13 We believe in being honest, true, chaste, benevolent, virtuous, and in doing good to all men; indeed, we may say that we follow the admonition of Paul-We believe all things, we hope all things, we have endured many things, and hope to be able to endure all things. If there is anything virtuous, lovely, or of good report or praiseworthy, we seek after these things. This is the 13th article Faith of the latter-day Saints, so I for one hope all things..
2+2=4.
2+2 does not equal 5, no matter how much we want it to be or hope to be or pray it to be or have faith that it is.
Great comments about the point of this adventure is: the Lehi story is historically plausible to people that don't want to believe the Lehi story.
But this "evidence" doesn't support that assertion.
@@rodneyjamesmcguire Huh?
It's also "plausible" that a teacup is orbiting Jupiter. What one should be asking, does the evidence sufficiently support the assertion.
@@jasonford7481that's not the point and is a strawman to the actual point made. If a buyer came to a seller and said I have evidence a teacup is circling Jupiter nobody would buy into it. The seller wouldn't either. The fact that everyone thought this story made sense given the timeline and history known says that the Lehi story is not absurd (unlike a teacup circling Jupiter) and that nobody would be surprised if it was proven true in any other context than it being associated with LDS.
@@jeremims9044 Actually, to say in 600bc an Israelite family built a ship and crossed to the Americas is as absurd as saying there is a teacup orbiting Jupiter. Both are plausible yet both are very unlikely and absurd.
The part of the Lehi story that is not crazy or anything special is the idea of a family leaving Jerusalem. Thousands of people left Jerusalem. That is the part of the story that people get on board with and agree with. Again, there is nothing special or remarkable about that aspect of the story.
I really love how the young men from the mormon church go out and share the word of GOD when they turn of age. The walk is what matters.
@@dirkjensen969 but the adults don't know anything either. Lmao 🤣 I have not met 1 arrogant mormon person in my life. Very humble God loving people from my experience.
@@dirkjensen969 not at all. D&C 1 tells us that God uses the WEAK things of the world to confound the wise. That’s why 19 year olds are used. God is more interested in making THEM strong through adversity than converting every person. Those who hear will hear, even from a weak 19 year old.
The missionaries give the message, if the person is able to hear and willing to read and pray, the Holy Ghost will bear witness of the truth.
@@dirkjensen969 Christ is able to do HIS OWN work. We participate in the process but are not the Shepherd. No one is sending them into the wilderness. God is in charge. If it weren’t for me serving a mission as a young person, I would have been devoured by now.
@@dirkjensen969 that’s why we send them on missions. It strengthens those young men and women more than anything. Strong families is the strength of the Church. Which is why the missionary program exists at all.
You guys have saved my testimony and have made the church real! I truly appreciatethe manner in which you study and speak of the sciptures, just subscribed to patreaon and looking forward to the book! Keep going, doing great things!
The only evidence I need is the joy that comes from reading the Book of Mormon. When I read, my day is better and I am happier. What more could I ask for?
I’m gonna be honest I thought it was true good to be true , but I don’t need evidence to confirm my testimony n the Church but wouldn’t it be nice💪💪💪 this show was really nice guys
I appreciate you guys listening to experts coming out. I still have some criticisms about your approach, but I'm glad you guys are open to all perspectives. Keep up the good work!
Why didn’t this person just take these to a museum ? That tells you all you need to know
In Saudi-Arabia? I trust Saudi-Arabia more regarding ancient artefacts, but if you would bring something really ancient to the museum in America, I fear it would disappear through the "trusting" hands of the Smithsonian Institute. Specially if it would speak against mainstream history.
@@magistradox39Conspiracy theory much? Or, based on your user name, are you being sarcastic?🤞
@@magistradox39 any respected world museum... I couldn't care less. There are experts all over the world in authenticating antiquities. This would be an easy solution, but since these tactics are meant to keep members of the church looking for 'buried treasure', yet never finding anything (sound like someone familiar??), you just keep them hoping and guessing without wanting to really find the truth. That is Morminism in 2024 unfortunately - no more critical thinkers
Or actual scholars! No, he goes on You Tube first???😅😅😅😅😅😅😅😅😅
we believe all things. we hope all things. we have endured many things and hope to be able to endure all things.
I really wonder if with more information some people would be as quick to accept them as genuine as quick as they have been to declare them as fake.
Probably no
Just finished listening to the whole thing ...dang it now I have to drive up to Heber and get a milkshake at Granny's...
It's very interesting that you guys show up on my CZcams...I grew up in The Reorganized Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints (Community of Christ) I moved away from the Church ( Priesthood Member) in about 1986....Anyway I'm grateful for your show because the Book of Mormon is so damn important and I'm needed to know that some incredibly smart/wise men supported this whole idea of the Book of Morman, and it's incredible significance because it's a 1st copy of people's experiences...2ndly, ascension 😮 more later🤣😆😁😂
It's so cool to have a book of mormon scholar that looks like a bad@$$ mob boss. Come teach Sunday school at my ward, please.
You can do it, too. Just let that mane grow! (Be warned, it ticks a lot of people of, tho. Trust me, I know. lol)
I'm OK to wait and see how this plays out, because my faith isn't built on or shaken by stuff like this. That being said, I'm loving this whole story and can't wait to see what happens next.
Super fun to watch you go through this stuff Dave. Brings back good memories from the school of the pseudo prophets in Genova. Best. Looking forward to your book
looks like we'll just have to wait and see
Could take decades.
You guys are awesome!
You’d be surprised how many people think $2 bills are forgeries 🤦♀️
Hahahahha I once worked with a person who didn’t know what to do with a $2 bill at the end of the shift. Had I been there (they apparently left a post it with “do not know how to proceed” on the bill for the opening manager in the morning), I would have swapped out two singles and taken it. $2 are so fun! My grandpa used to give them to us grandkids 😊 those and half dollars.
Thank you. I love the "everyone finds this Lehi narrative plausible!" Point
priest quorum adviser made us do that on high adventures we had to recite it before we could eat. some call that abuse. i am very grateful for the experience.
Gentlemen!!! I don't see a forger adding a SNAKE (representing the Christ) at the base of the MANORA (reping the Cross)!!!! Come on!!!!
Margaret Barker needs to look at these and give her opinion. Your both amazing , thanks!
Did you watch her break down of the Jordanian lead plates??? It was wild! She definitely needs to get her hands on these gold plates
Reading the Book of Mormon again and making a note of every reference to metal, brass and gold plates to identify the markers for identifying the 24 gold plates mentioned in the book of Ether would be a good idea.
Fun new way to study!
@@sama.scraps Absolutely! 👍
Very solid commentary. Super interested to see when further study verifies if these are legit or fake. We shall see!
The very first thing I thought about when you released your previous video was that this is a setup to try to get the church who is known for having a pile of cash to buy these at a multi-million dollar price tag... And then possibly even come back and say look we sold them a fake so they have no actual divinely inspired knowledge... First thing I thought of
Exactly my concern.
We won’t be fooled again a big pile of cash also buys experts to authenticate
It's been known to happen before *cough* Hoffman *cough*
And it's happened to others, too.
@@GwPoKo I don’t think we were solvent in the 80’s, were we?
Amazing thankyou yet another testimony of Christ and the truth of the Book of Mormon and it’s truth and proficiency’s this truely is God reaching out to the world from the grave an through our living God for our times in these Latterdays Wake up all those living on Mother Earth thankyou guys soo much ❤😂
The "Lehi sanario" i like that.
Imagine if someone who didn’t know English saw a document that said ROYGBIV. Gibberish!!
What?! You can't just say cryptic messages like that and expect us to gain anything from it. @@dirkjensen969
@@dirkjensen969I wish your comment were a bit more useful.
8:22, 17:33 Tha's an excellent point. The sellers were not like Mark Hofmann or the makers of the Kinderhook plates that specifically targeted us with an artifact or document that we would believe plausable.
I think the fact that these were offered up to someone who is not LDS but does have some biblical, and Hebrew knowledge makes it more credible. I think this actually would help the case.
@@csluau5913 Totally agree!
soft hearts. great reminder for all of us. meekness and lowliness of heart bringeth the visitation of the holy ghost.
Just test the gold. All gold can be not only dated gut they can tell you what part of the earth it can from exactly and if they can't then that adds a lot of credibility
Can you date gold…? I was under the impression that elements are hard to date. I know you can tell where certain ores came from, and where products made with those ores were mined (I believe they’ve found Michigan ore in some Egyptian artifacts, but don’t quite me), but gold is not an ore, I think..?
sounds like they are working on that
If they're real, critics will find a way around them, which proves the point that no matter how much evidence in favor of the Book of Mormon, proof still won't save you. If they're fake, absolutely nothing changes except the fact that now we know people are willing to believe a story so similar to Lehi's family as long as it doesn't come from Joseph Smith 😆
Ain't that the truth. I saw a list one time of dozens of things in the Book of Mormon people thought didn't fit or there was no evidence for when it was first published. Since then, the majority of them have since proven true and evidence has been found, but none of that has convinced unbelievers. It's really only the Spirit that truly converts.
A lot of evidences of the Book of Mormon were discovered decades later. But they only supplement the claim but our certainty of the truthfulness did not come from these, but the Holy Spirit. If those recent discoveries are fake and forgery, we simply dismiss it.
There’s ZERO actual evidence for the BoM. None. There’s a ton of evidence showing it’s fake. Millions and millions of findings and data lending to how the BoM is just a fictional book by a conman.
@jaredshipp9207 Look at Laman and Lemuel, they saw an angel, and still managed to devise justification to disbelieve...
So very true! I was surprised that Michael Rood's channel put them up. They are very antiMormon.
A thought-provoking episode, you did your homework.
They did no homework, they naively believed everything they saw and heard, just like they were taught to do in church, rather than ask important questions and think carefully.
Dousing for water is not magic. It is universal law that we don't understand yet.
I think that people should take these seriously, because anyone who understands symbols would know that a combination of several different symbols, which is clearly seen in these tokens… Which is what I think they are… Has connected meaning. There would be too much to unpack and explain, but the tree symbolism, pillars, temple, symbolism, morning, and evening star, and so forth all have meaning.
Especially when it is connected with the gospel and the history of the plan of salvation. I appreciate that the guys are presenting opposing point of view in this. I agree that I think that these small books are meant to be representations and tokens. They are not meant to be comprehensive books. There are people now that still carry small versions of books or sacred text with them, or as talisman around their neck on chains around the world.
Some Tribal Africans, Asians, Pacific Islanders and native Americans carry talismans with them. There are symbols contained within those talisman or medicine bags that represent ideas. Because of the representation of the idea they are believed to contain the same power as the original objects, books, and so on.
The menorah itself is a representation of the almond tree, which is a representation of the tree of life. the almond tree is also a representation of the fruits. That’s just one symbol. When you add the seven lights that would be lit at the top of each of the cups that is a second symbol. Because they have to be lit with olive oil that is a third symbol. even the menorah itself contains multiple symbols, but it is one symbol.
Then you add the date palm tree with fruit. The palm species that crows in the Middle East is known as a phoenix tree. The phoenix tree is a representation of the power of both male and female united, and it has the power of ation and resurrection. That is one symbol with several things contained within it. So I would say that this little book has quite a bit of punch packed into it.
Hebrew language aside, if it is actually a cipher, that would make sense. That small representative book is a token that represents the power of God in heaven and earth, and tells the story of the temple. interestingly, I’ve never been inside the temple. But I understand symbols. I think we should take this seriously, but also a healthy amount of skepticism, so we are not duped is always good advice.
It’d be interesting to see the rest of the things that were found, and even more interesting to see where they were found. If he were indeed found buried in a stone chamber, the context of everything would be important. I’ve worked on archaeological, excavations and context is part of the provenance that gives the find credibility.
Also, the person who found it, their character would be part of the credibility. Did you know that 78% of the archaeological things that are found in North America are made by every day people? Don’t let skepticism from academics put you off. They are educated and deserve respect, but they are not all knowing and seeing.
I have run into professionals that are very self promoting and do not like it when people find things because they are jealous that a normal person found these things, and they did not. so I think we should definitely see how the rest of this unfolds. I love that this is being found right now at such a crucial pivotal time, and I think it is symbolic that they find it less than two weeks before a major celestial event, which is marking a turning point.
Speaking of celestial, I find the two stars with eight rays to be very interesting. I’ve seen those eight pointed stars come up in a lot of different things, specifically, Sumerian and Babylonian steles and clay tablets. They could be representations of the morning and evening star, a.k.a. Venus. that would be fantastic because another representation of Christ is the Morningstar.
There is absolutely no reason to take a fraud seriously, nor the presumed parallels it gives
@@TheBackyardProfessor first you have to prove that something is a fraud before you can actually call it a fraud. You need to be specific about what you are calling a fraud in your comment and why you are making that statement. Otherwise, you’re just a troll throwing stones at somebody else’s glass house.
@@csluau5913 I am working on that as I type. It will be on my "Backyard Professor Responds" series within the week, I hope. If not within 2 weeks at the very longest barring any unforseen circumstances. I am going to seriously hope I am prepared enough by this Sunday to do it on my Live show Sunday at 6 p.m. Mountain time in the USA. You are, of course, more than welcome to come and listen and see the evidence.
Great to see Dave again! You should make him a regular. At least once a month.
Wow, so excited about this yesterday, and now...... You really fell for this - Kinderhook, line, and sinker!
clever…
Well done, David and Haden! 🙌
Thank you. Don’t worry about the negativity from nay sayers. Evidence for the Book of Mormon is the book itself.
Galatians 1 :6-9
@@-Letitkillyou- Irrelevant.
@@-Letitkillyou- if only the council of Nicaea read those verses…
@@Signal_Lost. on the contrary. You think that Bible passage was talking about exactly what the Mormon church claims to have been founded on? Revelation by an angel Moroni or something?
@DailyDoseofGod. The Gospel is that Jesus came down from Heaven, suffered for our sins, died for us, and then rose again. Everything else is peripheral. Angel Moroni came and preached exactly that. Galatians 1:6-9 talks about the opposite and warns us about false prophets like Muhammed and false scripture like the Quran.
Many will always TRY to Discredit GOD
And the devil.
What do you make of the bust of a man at the 28:43 mark in the center of the left leaf? Christ with a crown of thorns?
I have to say, thank you for the work you both do - it’s very interesting information and I enjoy watching these videos as the come in on my CZcams suggested queue. I have to say, though, I’m a faithful Latter-day Saint, and I just don’t see any reason to get excited or any compelling information for Book of Mormon “evidence.” If you’re going to brush aside authenticity, then it’s anything other than faith promoting. Also, your “11-point correspondence” is better described as a “loose connection” to the Lehi story, in my opinion. So I guess I find myself in a position different from many here in two ways: I actually think it’s important to authenticate the discovery of this gold booklet; and the symbolisms found in it do not propel me towards believing in the truthfulness of the Book of Mormon.
Information has been shared that the church knows about them and felt they were authentic.
Let’s say it’s a rumor . Because I can’t share my source.
Yes you would need information on that for surd to share it.
Columbia College professor Charles Anthon couldn't read a sealed book either?
46:28 That’s a great observation that should be taken into account
I keep thinking about the closing scene from *_Raiders of the Lost Ark_* .
There are just So many haters out there. It’s unfortunate. I love this channel
Not haters, Christians who know that the LDS organization is irreconcilable with God's word. It's sad that you could fall for these hoaxes 100 times and not be moved an inch. Your testimony does not = truth.
The mineral leaching on the lead plates would be very hard to fake. They would not have to be thousands of years old but it would require decades.
Let’s goooo!! One more day
This is so much fun! Regardless of its authenticity, this is cool! And not so likely to be buried again.
Over 80 percent of archeological discoveries are accidentally found by amateurs. The 'pros' contribute very little.
Citation please
@@billcook4768Yup, definitely need proof for that assertion.
Archeology is the citation. How many people prior to modern "Archeology" found graves to remove the valuables long before these archeologists find out that someone else beat them to it? I love archeology and those who practice it. I say stop the "I'm more right than you, etc." Just wait and see, the Second Advent is not far off...
@@EmmettMcKinney-cc7cf So no citation. Cool. Wait and see isn't evidence....any claim can use that excuse.
Joseph Smith is a citation.
Let’s get Nelson and Joseph’s old seer stone and get him to these plates so we can settle this.
😅😅😅😅
I am a lay person. Absolutely no ability to do what you two do, except that I could recognize the paleo Hebrew letters. 2 thoughts that came to me immedIately: was Jacob's ladder mentioned several times because they were descended from Jacob? And, Professor Anton couldn't translate the Book of Mormon.
MORE INFORMATION On the Saudi Arabian Gold Books
The Stick of Joseph
The well guy that dug our well used a dowser. It was a reputable company in N. California & the water was 600 feet down. He found water at 120 ft but the water wasn't very good, so he went deeper.
It totally is a gift, too! My dad helped some people in our ward decades ago when they were putting on an addition, and he just used a regular branch he found, and both he and the husband could find the buried pipes but nothing at all happened when the wife tried it. Kinda nuts! (I believe the utility company also came out and they shared their dowsed discoveries with them; it was mostly for fun and to kinda help speed along the work while they waited for the contractors).
Hey crazy question. I'm not a linguist, but is it possible that the book of Zenock could actually be a book of Zadok? Is there evidence of changing 'N' in Zenock to 'D' in Zadok? We know Nephi name comes from Egyptian Nfr, maybe it's not a smart question cause I am admittedly pretty damn stupid lol 😊
I think that’s a legitimate question considering vowels are often not written in Semitic languages
N and d are consonants in Hebrew, and are definitely written.
Modern square Hebrew would require a small foot and a shorter top for the “n” if it were changed from a “d” which has no foot and a longer top (than “n”). It’s easier to swap d with r (they are ridiculously similar), but I have no idea about paleo Hebrew n and d. Probably not out of the question though.
I also kind of thought Zadok was a title and not a name..? It’s very similar to tzadik (righteous), and basically the second half of the word Melchizedek (prince of righteousness). But I am very much a lay person only very slightly acquainted with Hebrew.
1kings 1:39, Zadok is a high Priest anointed Solomon as a King.
@arthursaulda9608 it's also the second park of Melchizedeks name. Names aren't necessarily actual names, in hebrew specifically they use names for stories that mean things. It's called onomastic wordplay. In fact Zadok if I'm not mistaken means righteous. Melchi means king, hence melchi-zedek is king of righteousness
Here's why i think they are fake, (just my opinion).
Authentic artifacts are not presented to the public via CZcams, in fact it's quite the opposite. Researchers write articles, publish papers, and present at conferences. They do this to allow their findings to be scrutinized by others in their field and to answer questions. This is all part of the peer review process. Doing this also builds their reputation, and leads to career advancements and promotions, which is another reason this process is followed (yes even researchers want to make more money).
So, if I what i have is fake, how do I tell the world about my discovery without scrutiny from others? CZcams of course.
Maybe I'm wrong, but the who thing is just a huge red flag.
I tend to agree with you but leave room for other incentives. Skipping the gate keepers may be a red flag but doesn’t prove intentional dishonesty. Admittedly, it doesn’t bode well for credibility or reputation either. Homo naledi comes to mind.
@@CornPopPomade Thanks and I agree, skipping the gatekeepers doesn't prove this is fraudulent, but the probability that it's authentic dramatically decreases (in my opinion).
I don't know the specifics of the homo naledi, was it announced via CZcams?
if it's bought from a private collection or found on someone's private property then that would give me a little room to think "ok, there might be some truth to this". Not much truth, but enough to keep my interest, but not testimony, going
20:44 I would say though that the men who have been brought these artifacts ; weren’t primarily researchers. 🤷🏻♀️
30:45 like carrying a temple reccomend
Scripture Plus said that the hole punches and the edges look like they are made by modern technology. Do you guys have any insight on that?
Is the reference of the first shall be last and the last shall be first a possible cypher/key/legend for understanding certain passages in addition to being prophetic in a variety of ways
We need an LDS version of Professor Robert Langdon to step up and help with this :-) Although, maybe we already do! Those who have eyes to see and ears to hear, understand things that others do not.
There are three steps on the menorah page of the lead Jordan plate Margaret Barker translated.
I hope they are real!! Look forward to learning more. These plates have nothing to do with the Book of Mormon, that we are aware of at this point, and these plates, real or fake, do not affect our testimonies one way or the other. I’m just curious to learn more about the plates and what they have to say if they are deemed legit.
My only questions right now are 1. Is that material real gold and 2. How much is that gold worth by itself?
I'm sorry I'm skeptical. I have PTSD from the Hoffman forgeries still...
My thoughts exactly
And rightly so. These two apologists obviously have been fooled by this clumsy fraud. They learned nothing from Hoffmann
I was working with the water department of the City of Mesa years ago and one of the city employees was walking around an intersection with two bent copper rods. When the rods crossed he spray painted that location. That is where they started to dig. I asked him about it and he said he didn’t know how it works, but it does and he has used it for years.
Remember the LDS Salamanda letters?
The person that showed the plates and the people that discovered the plates are not even LDS. FYI
@@marilirudolph3662doesn’t mean they aren’t looking to sell them for millions of dollars. Greed has a way of warping people’s mind. Don’t underestimate the evil of the world and the enemies want to thwart the Lord’s work. Latter Day Saints have an overzeal to prove the Lords work correct. Combo can be deadly. Read 2 Nephi 27. The book (meaning the gold plates) are sealed- meaning the evidence is also sealed. We do have the ‘words of the book’ ( or Book of Mormon).
All the Hoffman references are in association with Salamander and are all over the comments section
Awesome! I'm a believer!
This will be interesting to find more. If authentic, it has much affinity for 1st temple Judaism which is also found in the Book of Mormon. If fake, it is interesting the forger chose first temple Judaism items rather than the man made Deuteronomist revisions.
Any large and spacial buildings with the inhabitants mocking and rejecting the travelers?
Great job on the cyber btw....😮😅❤
Watch Dave is the seller and he’s doing all this with his book coming out to sell more copies. That’d be a sinister pull strategy.
I find that the skeptics are far more quick to consign forgery than the believers are to consign authenticity. I guess the skeptics have far more to lose
In this case it looks to just be very obvious to skeptics and professionals that it is a fraud. Not much time needed.
We skeptics have the obvious evidence of fraud. Believers are too quick to accept. Careful thinking left Mormonism a long time ago, and these 2 are proof it hadn't come back in some quarters.....
@@TheBackyardProfessor how do you expect anyone to take your comments seriously? First you have to stop with the name-calling and the petty remarks. I don’t believe you right off the bat, based upon the fact that you have not presented any evidence just made snarky remarks. So, where is your evidence? Give names, dates, cite sources and links please.
@@csluau5913 I will be presenting the evidence on my Live show "The Backyard Professor Responds" on Sunday night at 6 p.m. barring any unforseen difficulties.
I saw your triple dog challenge to appear on Ward Radio how. I would be more than happy to do so and explain why these things are forgeries and Mormon apologists have been suckered by them. I can't seem to find the post now however.
You guys must read the dialog from Saint Catherine of Sienna. It sounds exactly like your commentary of Lehi's dream, and there's a bridge with three steps that lead to the tree of life in her vision too. She said they were the kingdoms of heaven people would obtain depending on which step they were on.
Read Joseph’s mother book. Joseph Sr had pretty much the same vision in the early 1810s which he shared with his family.
Appreciate the update guys. I was a bit suspicious of the plates, but it'd be very cool if they were legit. And Dave, when you going to cut your hair?
😂
I hope he never cuts it! Porter Rockwell 2.0!
It was written in shorthand. Cool. They used shorthand way back in the day.
I knew that would happen, It was a given. I believe they are real.
It'd be nice to see you do THIS due diligence in the first place, before doing the first video, as to not lead so many to believe something that is obviously not true.
You’re not wrong, but the Paul bros. aren’t trained journalists.
This is a common mistake made by young reporters industry-wide.
Breaking the story is a lot more fun than waiting to hear back from a second source.
They’re CZcams personalities with a lot of uplifting content. They’re well-read and host a lot of meaningful discussions, but they’ve had a somewhat meteoric rise and growing pains like this are understandable.
Keep up the good work, guys! Thanks for posting an update when new info came in.
They did do this in the first video. All they said there was that this other channel is reporting this discovery and whether it's true or false. The way the sellers are selling it is a win for us.
@@DavidHMTStewartgreat comment!
Have you discussed the Jupiter Talisman?
There isn't too much to discuss,from my perspective. Years after Smith died, someone claimed that their Jupiter Talisman originally belonged to Joseph Smith.
At the time of his death, the Talisman was not listed as a possession on his body- so there are no references to the Talisman during his life. We have no good evidence that he had anything to do with it.
Why is this relevant?
Anyone pointed out that there have already been numerous authentic records engraven on gold, silver, and copper plates bound with rings found all over? It’s not like this is the first item like this found. The people around this are all kinda suspicious to me. But let’s see if it stands up to scrutiny.
Yup. Even in the Louve museum, Paris
Exactly HOW do fakes give "value"? Other than the "value" of the gold the plates were made of. I mean, if these are forgeries intended to deceive people then I see very little "value" in them.
Is it just me, or at 35:33 when the facing pages of the small gold plates is shown, does anyone else see a bearded man's face with a wreath looking across to the sacred tree on the other side? This is in the upper center of the left page, and seems to have several palm leaves around the head and a twisted wreath around his brow. A quick search shows wreaths were anciently worn by bridegrooms (Isaiah 61:10) and later seemed to become important to mourning the loss of the temple (as though it in older times was somehow connected to temple worship).
How many grape leaves around the edge? 24?
When will you be doing more interviews between the naysayers and the ones supporting the possible authenticity?
How do I get in touch with you guys?