How Bad are Smash 64's Low Tiers?
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- čas přidán 10. 06. 2024
- Here's how much of a failure Super Smash Bros (Smash 64's) Low Tier Fighters are... Are they even that bad?
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0:00 Intro
0:55 Samus
2:33 Donkey Kong
5:26 Ness
8:03 Link
10:20 Luigi
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Answer: still better than melee and brawls low tiers
Meh... Melee's only truly unviable is bowser imo
@@matthewwhoseph6437 very true. I honestly think 64 low tiers might be better than some other games mid tiers if it weren’t for all their bad recoveries
Spoiler and not melee but brawl definitely
hey you forgot to mention smash 4 low tiers
@@greenspeedser excluding melee bowser he's worse then brawl Ganon pichu and kirby are also G tier in melee. Ganon being the only G tier in brawl but he's still better than the melee G tiers
I really like how 64 doesn’t have awful characters. Because of this, one of my favorite formats in 64 competition is the 12 character battle, where it is a crew battle, but instead of different players, it’s two players with their team being the entire roster.
That sounds genuinely awesome, is there an online community that does this kind of stuff?
yeah, that format is sick af
@@Fuji0703 Isai and Superboomfan used to do these all the time.
These are called iron man matches and they’ve existed in every smash game forever
Thank god Smash Remix actually added 12 Character Battle as an actual game mode
Link's recovery is so frickin bad in 64
That shit goes nowhere 😭
And it looks silly to boot. The spiral effect in Melee works so much better.
I would like to see Australian 64 Link covered in the future. He is probably the most obscure bottom tier character to ever exist in Smash, not only cause the changes left him in a terrible state, not only because he is only character that is changed in that version for whatever reason, but because the only way to play him with no mods/hacks is to get an original Australian copy of the game, as the Australian Virtual Console version of Smash 64 uses the European version of the game.
Japanese 64 DK is also another intrigue: unlike the NTSC bottom tiers who has merits (especially in comparison to the Melee, Brawl, and vanilla SSB4 bottom tiers), he is genuinely an awful character with one of the worst matchup spreads in Smash history, thanks to direct and indirect differences with the game. He is considered to have no even matchups; only losing matchups, including a borderline unwinnable matchup vs Kirby.
The mirror match isn't even?
@@LloydTheZephyriandepends on port priority
and also pal samus! her already awful air speed somehow got worse in this version T_T
I honestly find it interesting that 64's low tiers, despite their flaws, are still relatively decent compared to other Smash games. Funnily enough, both of my favorite characters in Melee, DK and Luigi, are low tiers in this game, so I figure both of them had some serious catching up to do in later games.
Samus, as briefly shown, used to be considered the worst character. I remember back in the day on Gamefaqs, people would make fun of her that she had an easier time comboing a shield than an actual character. People seemed to figure out that you just have to play her differently; rely on her weight and floatiness to absorb hits and escape combos while gradually dealing hits in the process.
She's still I believe Link's only winning match-up, as he can just keep her away with projectiles, and in keep with Link's rep for comboing floaties, can actually somewhat combo her.
Tbf its almost certainly just bcuz of the low roster size
Most of the low tiers character in Smash64 would be quite good if they had better recoveries.
Smash 64 is brutal. Only Pikachu is allowed to have an actually good recovery. The next best thing is the ability to mix-up your recovery with Kirby and Jigglypuff jumps, but even those get punished super hard pretty often.
And because of 64's Hitstun, Fox's recovery is completely neutered when it would otherwise be a perfectly decent recovery.
Sakurai's first Smash game is arguably the cruelest. 😅
@@heartnet40 They were bad in Smash 64, and starting with Brawl, character's recovering began becoming ridiculous. Some of the lighter characters in ultimate, I feel like you can use every offstage intercept tool, and they STILL find a way to make it back.
Melee I feel like for the most part had balanced recoveries, moreso in PAL.
@@nahor88 Melee is probably my favorite for this since it offers just enough mix-ups for recoveries while still being very risky because of Ledge Hog.
I wish I could applaude Ultimate for having more gameplay options for edgeguarding and limited recoveries, but sadly waiting at ledge is too powerful that no one does edge guarding anymore.
@@heartnet40 Taking away ledgehogging was such a dumb mechanic. There's no denying that since Brawl, they made grabbing the ledge way more powerful and easier to aid newer players.
Since Brawl, I've wanted Nintendo to give players the best of both worlds, creating their own "Project Plus" which changes to game to be more competitively rewarding, but it goes against Sakurai's beliefs. It would be so easy for Nintendo to make that a DLC mode, but they'll never do it.
I'm glad they haven't shut down the actual Project Plus, but they've prevented the game from getting any traction banning it at major tournaments.
Ye
Good video, but there is one pedantic correction I need to make.
Saying that just the America version is "NTSC" is wrong because both the American and the Japanese are NTSC. People usually distinguish the Japanese version of games by adding J (NTSC-J).
It comes from the TV signals that American/Japanese outlets use as opposed to the outlets that European countries use (PAL). It's mainly the reason why NTSC runs at 60 FPS compared to PAL, which usually runs at 50 FPS (until it starts to change during the 6th console generation if I remember correctly)
Are we just not gonna mention the Space Patrol Luluco background music
I'm glad someone else said something I was if no one else did
Nice video. Minor corrections/other thoughts:
Main big thing not brought up for NTSC-J/NTSC-U differences: You can't DI as hard so Samus's up B is a bit better there. Because it's harder to get out of multihit moves, DK is worse in J because you can't DI out and Up B. You also can't Up B OOS as easily in the J version as moves have more shield stun in the J version. In short, one of DK's best things in the NTSC is not good in the J version so he's a sitting duck. There's also more DKs in the US version (ComboBlaze/Tacos/Lorenzo are good examples) with the best DK in Japan being retired for years (Amasawa)
Samus: See above regarding J/U. Section is otherwise mostly correct. The main thing Samus has is good platform pressure and a great d-air but struggles to combo. Samus does well vs. characters she can space out so Fox/Falcon/Rat crush her.
DK: See above regarding J/U. DK also has some funny tricks as noted but still struggles. Down B is actually a good thing and giant punch combos off of many moves. DK also has a throw into Giant punch killing puff at 18% because why not? DK has struggled a bit also since people learned to mash cargo jank.
Link: Essentially what you said. Shoutouts to all the Link mains. Character is hard to use but fun to use but then gets thrown off once and dies. The main difference in the J version is his up tilt is essentially a slow version of Kirby's and is completely absurd. Also bombs don't impact link as much (good and bad thing.)
Ness: Ramble regarding old Gamefaqs tier list from the guy who mostly ran the most recent tier list: People used to go ham on approaching and going ham vs. Ness is how Ness can be good. Ness also does terrible vs. floaties and less people used Kirby/Puff back then. The more Kirby/Puffs there are the worse Ness does as arguably the worst matchup in the game is Ness vs. Kirby along with Samus vs. some of the top characters. (Ness is actually pretty good vs. fast fallers and midweight.)
Luigi: He does have some modern players. See Freean and Czar for instance but there's others. It's just that Luigi does really poorly vs. the good characters (especially Falcon and Rat [Pika] and Fox.) Luigi is conversely one of the best low tier tournament characters (along with Samus) and is probably a top 4 doubles characters if not higher especially when double rat is banned.
Luigi's recovery also cannot be overlooked, especially in the context of low tier tournaments because (almost) everyone's recovery is so terrible in 64. His down B gives him about as much height as his double jump; paired with fireballs, I've heard many times "Luigi/Mario is unedgeguardable"
@@thebigdug Indeed as noted especially vs. low tiers. The only char who can edgeguard Luigi reasonably well in low tier events is oddly Luigi themselves and DK somewhat because lol up b/d-smash at the ledge. The upper tiers (especially Falcon/Rat and to a lesser extent Yoshit/Kirby can edgeguard him with some difficulty but yes his recovery is actually good compared to most characters in the game.
As for the PAl versions?
@@karisasani7006Nobody plays PAL Smash 64 competitively, but the most important thing of note is that Link gets massive buffs to his air speed and weight, making him survive longer and recovery better. He also gets the strongest forward smash in the game.
@@theobserver4214 Basically Pal link is when he isn't as "gimped" in the game so basically thats him at his best
What you talking about? All of samus's arials have 4 frames of endlag.
Didn't mention that Dk's up special is a good "get off me tool" with frame 1 intangibility.
Good info! Always interesting to see a character shift down a tier list as much as Ness.
Couple notes though? Transitions between characters could be made a little clearer with a change of background or BGM. Kinda gets confusing and bleeds together whenever you move to the next entry- although that was kind of engaging in a way, the overlaps _did_ get me to focus more…
And just a technicality: JPN is also NTSC(-J). The “NTSC version” here is the NTSC-U (NA) version. Using “NTSC” in place of NA makes most sense when you’re comparing it to one or more PAL versions (like you do for Link), otherwise it can be a little confusing.
Keep the 64 and Remix content coming! Been loving this game lately
I honestly had no idea there were so many different versions for Smash 64 with their own buffs and nerfs to characters.
Smash 64 Ness was definitely not bad in my opinion, way better than Melee Ness for sure. He would probably be higher on the tier list if his recovery was more like how it is in Ultimate, where jumping on the PK Thunder projectile above Ness won't make it disappear, as well as being overall easier to control.
There's a reason the tiers only go down to C
Because there’s only twelve characters or they are the best low tiers in best franchise
Golly, I've never noticed how bad the recoveries in this game were. Almost reminds me of HDR 💀
Hope to see more 64/remix centric videos, I've gotten addicted to them again
golly 🤓🥜
"Golly" what 💀
Truly a golly moment 💀
Super Mac Bros
bro said golly
... I mained Luigi in OG smash. I was actually really disappointed with how he changed in Melee lol. Particularly the changes to his up+b.
Well. Luigi's Uppercut move was pretty broken in Smash 64 to the point where Sakurai had no choice, but to immensely nerf it in Melee back then. LOL At least, Luigi now has a much better Drillkick move in Melee since it can actually KO opponents pretty early whereas his Drillkick previously wasn't even a kill move in Smash 64 back then. Plus, even though Luigi had great character abilities while he was a Low Tier character in Smash 64 at the same exact time, he still became an even better character in Melee to the point where he's now considered to be a Mid Tier character. Even though his Uppercut and recovery moves were still scaled back in Melee back then.
Fr. It’s very hard to land a direct hit with the up B but it’s absolutely devastating when you do.
@@iamdamosuzuki_ It was definitely a lot easier to land a direct hit with his Uppercut move in Smash 64 than it was with the rest of the Smash titles. LOL I wonder when Honest Content will eventually post a video about the competitive history of Luigi in Smash. I personally think that Luigi was more viable in Smash 64 and Melee than he was in Brawl, in my opinion. Especially since his drillkick move was pretty broken/deadly in Melee back then as well. Even though his Brawl ranking is still higher than his Smash 64 ranking is.
@@SiMgUrL1721I feel melee Luigi’s up B is the hardest to land.
@@user-bd3ds4ev5f Remember that Luigi's Uppercut move was hit pretty hard with the nerf hammer in Melee since it was initially pretty broken in Smash 64 back then. LOL If you actually look up his Melee Uppercut move on Smash Wiki, then you can clearly see that it mostly has received a ton of nerfs. LOL
Smash 64 low tiers: Almost half the characters.
Melee low tiers: All of the characters except fox.
I think part of the reason why low tiers are able to get away with having poor disadvantage states in this game is because unless you are one of the 3 characters with non-grabage recoveries in the game, chances are if you get sent off stage by a competent player, you're just dead. It doesn't really matter if you're Fox or Luigi, your recovery is extremely exploitable.
I would actually argue that Ness has an above average recovery in this game. His strong double jump covers a lot of distance and his fast aerials can make edgeguarding legitimately risky, which is not a claim many members of the cast can make. It's still pretty bad though. If you get caught off stage without your double jump then you're dead, but that applies to virtually everyone not named Pikachu.
For those curious, the 3 characters I consider to have non-garbage recoveries are, in order, Pikachu, Kirby and Yoshi. Every other recovery in the game ranges from "bad" to "competing for worst recovery in the entire series".
Combine the near universality of garbage recoveries with the high number of 0 to death combos in the game, and the fact that the only legal stage is quite small, and having a terrible recovery isn't actually a death sentence in 64. It's a flaw, but not the automatic death sentence that it would become in later games like Brawl.
Omg is that a Night Running Remix during the Ness breakdown? that's so sick!
I always thought Luigi was at the bottom due to him being rarely played. He felt more fun to play than Link did
i love these videos! i played 64 as a kid a lot, and didn’t even know how to shorthop, or about z cancelling. i always thought fox was the best character as a kid. fun to reminisce and learn about these games when older.
Good video but also a good amount of Luigi slander, he is not weaker than Mario in raw damage. Sure his smash attacks deal like 2% less, but his aerials deal the same damage, and he has some moves that deal even more than Mario. They both have slower/faster attacks than each other seemingly arbitrarily and I will admit perhaps Luigi got the short end of the stick there. However, his recovery is amazing and I've played for long enough to know, even in that clip where you sandbagged for a full second, you could still get back to the stage if you up b faster.
Basically Mario is far better on the ground but Luigi is far better in the air
ur one of my favorite channels rn, love the passion and editing style
living for the use of tf2 music AND the low tier analysis! Keep the awesome content coming!
That n64 soundfont version of Fallen Angel was not something i would have ever expected to hear
thats from psg, right? it sounded so familiar to me
I'm normally not a fan of these deep dives into tiers and mechanics but you kept me interested, you're a good presenter. Keep it up.
Would love if you added in a bit of competitive play showcasing the flaws, though I understand that it's probably just easier to record them yourself. Loving the videos though ❤
That Fallen Angel remix at 4:40 is great!
Awesome Video. Loved the greenscreen format
An Honest video a day keeps the boredom away, great content man I enjoy it heavy❤🔥
As someone who mains Luigi his airspeed might leave a lot to be desired if he catches you in the air you’re gonna have a bad day. His floatiness allows him to stay in the air for absurd amounts of time for a character that isn’t Kirby or Jigglyputf. That being said you wanna mostly stay in the air wish Luigi because aside from the A special he’s not very good on the ground
Honest Content you have come a long way wow!
It’s weird to think that Luigi had the worst mobility in this game
When I was little playing 64 for the first time me and my siblings used to use DKs grab to pick up each other and just jump off stage lmao
Shoutouts to the pipo password music pic 💯
Did not expect the Fallen Angel Theme remix but that shit was fire
This is another reason why I still like Luigi slightly better than Mario as a character. Even though Luigi was first initially a Low Tier character in Smash 64, he still possessed with having a pretty broken Uppercut move to the point where it became immensely nerfed in Melee back then. LOL However, when Mario was a Low Tier character in Brawl, he actually was almost unplayable back then. Especially since Mario didn't have any type of broken moves in Brawl back then. It's just proof that goes to show that Luigi will always have much better character abilities than Mario has even when they both happen to actually be in the Low Tiers.
I like how even if they’re low tiers, they still have some cool jank moves, that’s pretty cool
Next will be Sm4sh. It will be interesting to see them
I think Smash 4 is an underappreciated gem. Sure, it has its flaws, but I feel like it was more fun than Smash Ultimate. Something about Ultimate's game feel just never clicked right to me.
dope video style homie
Based 64 content.
As someone who mained Link and Ness in 64 thanks for teaching me rhe difference between the Japanese alts
I knew link wass better at recovery in Japan.
I dunno if i trade Ness faster run speed for better Pk Fire though
Yo they added banjo in remix you should make a video about it 🎉
BGM at 9:00 pls? thanks
I need that song name
song IDs?
Woah 64 Samus actually moves exactly like in the original 2D Metroid, I wonder if maybe they fucked up the character design by making her faster and giving her a tether grab
The giant punch is so strong, it got nerfed in the other games
A video on Ultimate Low Tiers would probably be similar to this.
Cause even bad characters in SSBU like Little Mac, Piranha Plant, and Dark Pit can still put in decent results
I cant tell if youre doing a socially awkward bit, or fighting World War 27 with the 'tism.
Either way, i love it and thought it fit the vibe of the video lol
I love the mid 2000s back to school fit. 🎉
i thought the text in the thumbnail said LOVE lol
I'm really hoping they release Smash 64 on NSO for the 25th anniversary of the game this month.
Also Luigi basically doesn't have a dash attack.
Still upset that Link and all of his clones are cursed to have spin attack as his recovery. They need to replace this move please. I hope its gone in Links new HDR moveset.
Great video and analysis! Smash 64 is still great fun! I didn't realize how many regional differences there were! If there isn't already, I'd love to see someone make a hack of Smash 64 that acts like a balance patch for all of the characters.
Would like to point out some stuff, as I feel like some additional detail would be good.
Samus: She's bad because she lacks any real combo potential, relying heavily on tech chase/reads. She had good grounded moves, her f smash, jab, dash attack can build up% quickly. She's hard to combo because she's both heavy AND floaty. She has great kill options, charge shot into grab, dair into grap, bair. Her dair of stage and if she has a setup if she uses a bomb close to ledge, then grabs ledge, it can guarantee a kill with her dair.
DK: His infinite only works if people mash out, and isn't really as strong as you're making it out to be. It's good vs newer players who don't understand this. His up b is good as both his hands have no hurt boxes, making him very safe, and why you often see then spamming it in neutral, as it's a really good move. Like Samus he relies a bit on tech chasing with his down slam resets after a dair. His bair is really good as it's quite long and has no real end lag. His punch turns him around, which is very useful for positioning, as you can cancel it very quickly.
Ness: He can be very scary, his ability to rush people down can be hard to deal with, his up tilt, up air have high prio and can combo into itself. His djc is the strongest its ever been, as z cancel removes all end lag vs melee/p+ which just speeds things up. His ability to gain % quickly is amazing, and his throws are a kill move (most are in this game vs melee). But as you said he has a hard time getting in, and his recovery is very easy to stop, as its so slow that you can just grab ledge, force them to go high then punish them. He was a high tier as people didn't know how to deal with him (Similar to Snake in Brawl) but after they did, he slowly went lower and lower.
Link: Link sucks cause his combo potential is very low, has 7 frames of jump squat (you have to wait 7 frames before jumping off the ground), he has no out of shield options, which makes him very weak to fake pressure. At most he can go for grab out of shield or up b. His recovery sucks and the meme is back throwing Link of stage is usually enough to kill him. What makes him good is his disjoints, his ability to actually have good match ups into high tiers (He's good into Kirby and Yoshi, along with the Mario Bros, Puff) but lose hard to the rest of the cast. His ability to mix things up with soft throw vs hard throw on his projectiles can make it hard to approach, his dair comes out like frame 3 or 4. He's not bad when he has room to exist, but if Link can't get the space, he just dies. (Falcon is like 9:1)
Luigi: Ultimately, he's just a worst Mario, sure his up b and down b are kill options that Mario lacks, and his projectile can be better in some situations over others compared to Mario. But he's just a worst Mario ultimately, he's slow, awful air speed, needs to build % to try and go for kills, suffers from similar issues that Mario does where his recovery is easy to counter, has a harder time actually building %. The easiest counter is to just never approach Luigi as he struggles to do so himself. If Luigi forward throws you on stage, you can not tech, get up and still punish Luigi, depending on the position of the throw, he's that slow. The nice thing vs Mario is he's floater, so his down b makes him go higher, and generally speaking he can live higher% due to the weight difference, along with his higher jumps.
This video seemed like something that was done from reading the smash wiki, along with stretched 4:3 remix/19XX game play, but I'm glad more videos are coming out that aren't just "lmao 64 is just zero to death, isn't that so crazy guys?!" so I'm happy for that. Anyways, have a good one.
11:10 PAPER MARIO?????
"DK is super easy to combo"
(Shows Mario whiffing combos and landing randy hits on missed techs)
Ive been watching your videos for a while and love seeing the growth you have had but i think using footage of a non moving/low level cpu makes the video look very low quality. Not expecting you to be going all combo contest mode but at least use more pro footage if you need to fill gaps.
Now we do Smash 4 next!
Haven’t watched any of this and am really excited to see how you convince me as a casual player that Link is anything other than complete garbage in every way. This was shortly after OOT, this characters popularity was at an all time high, and his representation in this game was legitimately criminal.
You kind of look like n0things half brother which is a compliment.
Although I don't know what you are doing with your hands I enjoy your videos, good job!
Hey @zachhonest if you're interested in doing more smash 64 or smash remix content I'd be happy to help with info on competitive play and development
@ZachHonest Collaborating with Darkhorse for Smash 64 content would honestly be pretty cool!
Didn't Isai win a major tourney with Link back in the day or did he get 2nd? Regardless, what a fucking flex. Isai is too good.
You didn't have to make another banger Zach
Luigi being low because he isn't played that much is just so fitting for him.
I think it’s crazy that a game with 80 characters( smash ultimate) feels almost as tightly knit as a game with 12
Nintendo hates Metroid and Samus.
She should be one of the most mobile characters in the series. And after Dread I want her movement in the next Smash. No floaty brick.
This was a great vid. As a Link main for life (until Ultimate), it's nice to get some validation that he was never THAT horrible.
There’s also sm4sh puff and ultimate…little Mac. (I’m not saying ganondorf)
Is the tierlist different in the pal version?
Probably, since the framerate is lower to accommodate national electricity standards. Don't know for sure
Pal N64 games run at 50 fps as opposed to NA and Japan running at 60
@@neonlove5456 50Hz actually, not 50fps. "fps" means "frames per second". Not every PAL N64 game runs at 50fps.
@@Diddy64wii good to know. Thanks
@@neonlove5456 You're welcome. ^^
And then along came Isai.
Why is everyone low tier recovery so bad in 64 💀
If any smash game got remade it would be 64
Well, Smash Remix is the closest to that! It has more characters, stages, items, game modes, toggleable optional mechanics from future games, etc!
When I played smash 64 with my high school friends, they were all surprised when I said that Luigi is the lowest tier character in the game because I just made him look good. The mind games I could pull with his up B, down smash, and all sorts of other goofy things
Japan's version of the game is also NTSC
I know a guy who refuses to play anything but Luigi, and he's actually REALLY FUCKING GOOD at him despite otherwise being bad at smash. wild
I feel like Pikachu is good enough in this game that even Kirby should be considered low tier
What did they do to my boys in green?
Great vudeo, the music kind of drowned you out though
Not too bad(aside from Link's awful recovery)
They're not so unviable per say.
“NTSC version” japan literally uses ntsc just say NA version
Mfers hatin on JP DK like he can't deadass teleport across the stage like melee samus with the super wavedash. Seriously, look it up, it's hilarious.
Also, JP Luigi is really good! He's slightly faster in air, some moves are stronger, and his fireball has a lot of hitstun, making it a surprisingly useful projectile.
YESS it's out
Man talks about the dk "infinite" and doesn't show it being used in tourney =(
Top 6 Genesis 6. Always funny
Luigi's taunt does more damage than any other character's. This video is null and void.
Sounds like the Japanese version of 64 is more fun to play with the better recoveries and stuff!
Dude thank you ❤ spitting out a samus fact right out of the gate. Now i'm watching the entire thing
Love the TF2 music
you've probably gotten this comment before but i just have to say it: NTSC does not mean NA. it means NA/JP/KOR/etc. easy mistake to make because of melee not having any differences between the NA/JP 1.02 versions so it often goes left unsaid. But I figured I would say so.
Having played smash 64/remix for over 5 years, and being very good at the game, I can confidently say that this game's low tiers are... Okay. I think.
Ness down b is ridiculous xD
I remember Ness being top tier!
i like the video but the music is too loud in the whole thing, im struggling to hear your voice most of the time
The background music is really distracting
If starting to feel that pretty much almost every fighter in Smash 64 is viable as the low tiers aren’t that bad as the low tiers in other Smash Bros games.
Fuck the topic of the video, where do I need to go to get peanut butter twix?
Gas Station my guy