"Well, That Happened" - The Death Of Sincerity In Blockbusters
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- čas přidán 30. 07. 2023
- A video essay about the rise of "Well, that happened" humour, and its effect on modern blockbusters.
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Glad to see such big stars from dune discussing this topic thank you!
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Now Timmy Tim ay Timmy Tim ay
Was just about to say this
I was literally just looking at another video on the right, with someone looking like Stephen Amell
you bastardo. you almost made me spit out my pizza laughing. warn a brother first
Bro is foul for that, but for some reason I couldn’t stop myself from cracking a smile 💀
The problem with most movies is that, instead of leaning into the universe, it constantly makes fun of its self in the worst possible way, by breaking immersion.
It's big in certain types of movies because the filmmakers are embarrassed by the genre. That's also why The Batman and the Nolan trilogy tried so hard to be gritty and realistic. Everything's either a deconstruction of the heroes or have the heroes pointing out possibly embarrassing things before the audience can. "Would you prefer yellow spandex?"
@@JDoe-gf5oz It’s like most movie studios think that audiences are expecting everything to be completely realistic. Name me a person who watched lord of the rings and went “what’s all this magic nonsense! This doesn’t make any sense!” Like, it’s fiction, it doesn’t need to be realistic to be taken seriously.
@@JDoe-gf5oz how the fuck are Matt Reeves and Christopher Nolan "embarrassed " of the source material? If anything, taking it seriously is way MORE respectful than the constant use of "well that just happened" style dialogue.
@@ginichilders9619 calm down, dude. They're just movies.
Exactly
The last decade of movies has trained viewers to be so nihilistic that literally any sincerity is looked at as corny. At least by younger audiences.
This is the case for the digital age as a whole. Like on the internet, no one is real. Everyone is sarcastic and taking things seriously on the internet is considered cringe and sad
It is corny, cringoid.
@@EggEnjoyercase in point, the above comment.
@@mrosskne silence zoomer or I'll say the wrong pronouns 🤣
In that case, my ocs are the corniest characters on earth, which is not surprising at all
Too many people are afraid of being called "cringe" and thus they can never take things seriously ever. :/
Which is so ironic. Because cringe only happens when someone sincerely tries to be something they're not. Like, someone who can't sing tries to sing a Whitney Houston song, and they try with all their might and fail hard. That's cringe worthy. But someone sharing their real genuine emotions in the truest way they can should not be cringey at all. It's authentic.
@@phoebexxlouise what if a person who can't sing pouring their heart into singing a whitney houston song IS sharing their real genuine emotions in the truest way they can?
I'm more in the camp of cringe culture is dead, all it does is mock people for enjoying things or trying things. be cringe! be free!
@@quinintheclouds
I agree completely. No matter what you do or don’t do, people have a problem with you anyways, so you should just be yourself. People label everything and anything as cringe, the same way they spit out insults, because they have no self control whatsoever. This culture of cynicism has an impossible standard of perfection and I’m completely sick of it.
"I am cringe, but I am Free"
@@amiablereaper"I am cringey and I am proud."
It hit me in the D&D movie that came out recently. The team is down on their luck and Bard starts to sing a song to cheer everyone up.
The big barbarian girl looks up and him and I'm almost certain she is about to say something about it and threaten to shove his lute up his backside if he doesnt stop singing, or something to that effect.
But then she didnt. She smiled and joined in. They cheered up. And of course they did, these people are dear friends. But it was so so damn refreshing and totally unexpected.
Made the ending way more impactful as well, those of you who have seen it know what I mean.
Damn that was a good movie.
RIGHT?! my d&d group watched that movie together and honestly it might be my favorite of the year, maybe next to Spiderman which is also very good.
What's it called?
@@HostileAtHeart Dungeons & Dragons: Honor Among Thieves
No it wasn't
@@IPITYTHEFOOLZ What is the purpose of your comment? You didn't like the movie, that's fine. But what can possibly come from you dropping a nothingburger of a statement here?
You know, for all it's flaws, it was refreshing to walk away from Avatar 2 and think "man, it's nice to have a movie where the characters take their goofy ass world seriously, and don't constantly make jokes about it." Because really, if you grew up there, why would you?
I completely agree with you. I love Avatar 1 and Avatar 2 because, for all their flaws, these movies are sincere and aren't filled with quips during tragic moments. I love the Raimi Spider-Man trilogy for the same reason, because those movies are sincere and aren't filled with quips during tragic moments.
@@Rishi123456789my back my back
@@thegreatpiginthesky3904shazam fly up up and away web
As much as I hate the modern snark humour in movies recently, I really didn't like Avatar 2. It just felt like there wasn't much thought put in the world making sense or the plot developing rationally, and it was just a series of emotional moments and pretty visuals.
Not a movie, but: *coughs in modern Paper Mario*
Self-referential humour is definitely a growing problem.
I'm thankful when there's a character that just tells the person explaining the joke to abruptly "Shut up" and move on
@@tuckernutter I think that will be the next step that will also be overused untill we reach full circle into sincerity again.
@@Xenozillex"There's a big bomb that's going to explode in Central Park" "Uh, a big what now? What is this, an action movie?" "Shut up comic relief! This is serious, people are going to die!"
It’s been growing since the 2000’s. To my mind that when the infantilisation of adults through games and movies really started becoming noticeable.
Well, you just said that 😹
The worst part about it is that this kind of thing also influences the general public attitude towards sincerity in the real world, too. There's been so many times where i've been open to my friends or who ever, be open/vulnerable just to be met with disgust in their face lmao
Tbf, I'm pretty sure that's just influenced by internet culture in general.
I've got a brother who's been dealing with that to an extent. He mentioned it's been hard to listen to the original songs that parodies make fun of. As I've talked with him more, he's been realizing that it's been a mask for uncertainty and self-doubt. It's really rough to figure out.
I'm sorry to tell you, but those assholes were not your friends
it's all interconnected, yeah @@The_Man_Who_Sold_the_World.
I was about to make this point too. Sincerity, vulnerability, and indirectly honesty, arent looked upon favorably in the mainstream culture.
I speculate that part of the reason this humor took off is because people are afraid of being judged for taking "nerdy" things seriously, and they see ironic meta-humor as giving them an excuse to enjoy things without being seen as lame for it.
Good point!!
yeah, sincerity is weakness
The big reason was a lot of superhero flicks tried and failed to be ‘edgy’ and ‘mature’, like Daredevil.
The Avengers was fresh, it was humor comic fans and those just getting into the universe could laugh at. It was also a pretty natural progression for a character like Tony Stark, who like Rocket Raccoon, uses his witty humor as a shield.
I agree. Ironic *Blank* is a way of shielding your sincere belief in whatever *Blank* is. Sadly a good example of this is 'ironic' prejudice or bigotry.
Be nice if they treated Thor's PTSD and guilt with respect. His scene with his mother in Endgame was touching. Imagine how powerful that whole arc would have been with sincerity. Instead we get fat joke Thor.
The only things allowed to have any sincerity these days are biopics of BIPOCs
I hate Thor Ragnarok for this. It feels like a more somber or sad Movie at least in this direction it goes, but every time the emotion start to grow in that direction boom joke. Biggest offence are the end credits. They should have gone; She dies and than she arrives in the afterlife, and than end but no we have to end on a happy note no matter Thors feelings.
@@janiwersen9417Do you mean Love & Thunder?
@@Se7enRemain Ragnarok was also bad, Love and Thunder just happened to be even worse than that
Fr, they want to treat Scarlet Witches trauma seriously, but make fun of Thors
I don't remember where I saw someone say this "A problem with modern action movies I that every character talks and acts like Deadpool"
When everyone is Deadpool, no-one is Deadpool.
And even then, the reason Deadpool works is because he has characters around him, like Colossus and Cable, who ARE taking the movie seriously and who react appropriately when he's making tasteless jokes or quipping in the middle of a deadly battle.
@@Rishi123456789”And when everyone’s Super!… no one is”
Exactly and with Deadpool 3 apparently being described as a 'fish out of water' story for Deadpool in the MCU, I wonder how legit that statement is going to be considering how everyone is just as referential as him. He's just going to be more profane and crude
Deadpool is overrated
*runs away*
Forespoken feels like the movie industry leaking into the games industry and that is honestly the most terrifying thing imaginable
I just moved Hollywood's cringe writing into games with my freaking mind! Yeah, ok, that is something I do now.
Well the game absolutely bombed and was critically panned, so there's hope for our industry yet.
And so, the self awareness became cringe again.
You kids need a life
It legitimately sounds like joss whedon wrote the dialog lmao
Sam Raimi’s Spider-Man Trilogy is probably the exact opposite of this. Extreme sincerity, embraces camp, isn’t embarrassed of what it is, has actual good comedy, and the emotion hits god damn hard.
Probably why I hated the writing of No Way Home, it is exactly everything you described here
If 2 or 3 lines ruined the movie for you, then that's weird
@@miadatenshi9903 Did I say that or are you just making up your own assumptions? The movie’s writing was god awful it’s not just those jokes, it has more plot holes and shitty lines than I can list, but no nothing ruined the movie cause I could still enjoy it as cheap fun popcorn fan service. Just not as the kind of cinema I love
No Way Home is a movie for redditors. The dialogue, the acting, the sheer sloppiness of its visual language and directing. Just so god damn Reddit.
@@bikramarora1819 What a bummer, sounds like a Raimi nostalfag
no okay no way home unironically made me lose my MIND, i’m so glad i’m not the only one who hates it
I think the biggest issue is how little a scene is allowed to breathe. Shots don't sit on something anymore because instead they focus on something happening them quickly cut away to a lame joke which undercuts any bit of tension and emotion.
And then they can go too far the other way, with all the shows and movies that have characters constantly staring pensively into the gray distance to show how serious and thoughtful the scene is.
100%. Editing is so clinical nowadays, showing just enough to illustrate the plot point and moving on, which loses out on all the interesting nuance that makes scenes meaningful.
This thread is literally Across the Spiderverse and Oppenheimer
@@kono5933Oppenheimer was an editing masterclass. It’s a 3 hr talky biopic. The editing style had to be quick and snappy.
Or when films feel the need to have characters literally describe everything going on in a scene in detail, or describing jokes and why theyre supposed to be funny, or having a scene dedicated to dialogue where every plot and plan is revealed to the viewer - as if we can't tell what's going on and need to have our hands held to understand the story. TV series are even worse, every edgy cartoon from the early 2000s to now is literally BASED on this kind of dialogue.
I think that's why the scene in Puss in Boots: The Last Wish where Perrito was comforting Puss during his panic attack was so loved and talked about so much.
There was no dialogue or quippy jokes. Just a friend helping a friend in need.
Jep, what in the beginning was played as a joke (Perrito wanting to become a therapy dog and Puss being appaled by it), became sincere in the moment of need. It was beautifull, because Puss was this emotionaly distant, cocky dude not so different from many marvel charakters. Even him "not being a math guy" was this certain humor, designed to keep emotions of vulnerability away.
I'm thankfull the bountyhunter was so scary as a villain, as he forced vulnerability in a movie, that would've otherwise be just another marvelesque movie if we look at any other scene.
cringe
@@mrosskne Don't care ☺
@@DundG on my way to your address :)
@@mrosskne nuh uh
The biggest thing to note is that trends are basically a swinging pendulum. As folks were getting tired of media taking itself too seriously, quippy/ironic humor felt like a breath of fresh air.
And now, we're seeing folks getting tired of irony, so we're swinging back towards sincerity. And we'll be right back to irony in another generation or two.
Quips are crutches for bad writing.
And most marvel movies all have the same spoiled milk plot.
@@sownheard It's honestly not even that the writing is necessarily bad or that quips are a crutch for them, but that the writers who overuse them (or the suits that demand their use) are afraid to just let a scene breathe.
While the more cliche lines should probably be shelved for a bit, quips as a whole are fine when used responsibly; like all writing tools and tropes.
@@DTFauxClassic except the writing IS bad and the majority of movies are using the humor to hide it behind laugh tracks. This is the standard MCU film. Even if the scene was allowed to breathe it’s still gonna be bad, so no, bad writing IS the issue.
@@blacklivesorblackvotes2985 The reason why I stand by saying the writing "isn't necessarily bad" is because most of these films (Marvel included) are still competent and entertaining for what they're worth; even if we, personally, aren't feeling them anymore.
We can argue all day about execution, tired trends, artistic merit, etc., but to just throw a blanket "It's all bad" is lazy and unproductive criticism. Great to get a gauge on how YOU feel about something, but it doesn't give much for people to chew on or walk away with.
Exactly
Oh my God, THANK YOU. This is my biggest problem with media today, and why I think so much of it is garbage. The vast majority of it is so meta, cynical, and lazy. Many writers think that they can get away with bad writing as long as they appear “self-aware,” and it’s incredibly annoying.
The ultimate irony being that alleged "self-awareness" has now become actually lacking in self-awareness itself, where you have people attempting to seem that way but in turn they come off as cringe simply because of how hard they're trying to. Like someone telling the same joke over and over and over again. In this case literally.
There's a term for this: bathos, which is defined as "an effect of anticlimax created by a lapse in mood from the sublime to the trivial or ridiculous." While it can be used effectively, it's overuse in parts of the story that should be serious can signal that the author doesn't trust the story to capture the audience emotionally, and it can have the effect of teaching the audience that any emotions they may feel are silly and that they shouldn't actually car about anything happening in a piece of media
Nice comment
Wow, your description of bathos makes me think of David Lynch's "twin peaks the return", I believe that was one of the only intentional instances of this effect being used well, as it's used to undermine Cooper's belief in his current reality as he realizes he's in a dream. Near the last episode the show takes a major tone shift and turns into them fighting a CGI fireball with a glove, after which Cooper realizes this is not real life and goes down to the boiler room to travel to a different memory.
I think it works in that case because the show itself is somewhat about if we can trust what we perceive/what we are shown
Absolutely. I think I first noticed this consciously when watching "The Force Awakens", which was a movie I had very high hopes for. Within the first few minutes, when Kylo comes face to face with Poe in the desert, there is a brief moment where they stare each other down, and then Poe says "So who talks first? You talk first? I talk first?" *cue audience laughter*
I found that line to be so incredibly jarring. It completely undermined the intensity of the scene and told me that this was not a film that took itself seriously, which means I'm not going to either. Once I noticed it there, I started noticing it everywhere.
It stems from a problem in our culture, platonic friendship is dead now. When's the last time you heard two friends, particularly males, say they love and care for each other, without having to play it off as a joke or say no homo afterwards. We look at sincere emotion and love as cringey and mushy. The entertainment produced for us is a reflection of our own values. Films and shows from other cultures don't have this issue because their cultures don't have this issue.
I feel so insanely lucky to have a close male friend like this. I hear this shit constantly from men and it's so sad.
This is why I hate it when people "ship" friends and feel the need to project a sexual relationship onto them.
I barely experience sexual attraction with people but I experience emotional and intellectual attraction too often. And I'm wary of expressing it because I know most people can't experience either without romantic or sexual interest as well, so I worry I may come across as being sexually or romantically interested because they project the way *they* feel onto me.
@@HemlockerSame here, but a brother instead.
This sounds like me 20-25 years ago so it's not a new thing. These days my lived experience is much more emotionally open in general.
Audiences aren't tired of sincerity, but Hollywood is.
And they are being trained to think and feel like Hollywood
idk about that one chief
@@tng514case adjourned
We got through decades to get to where we are
@@tng514ik about that one chief
Yeah, I started noticing this becoming really obnoxious during Civil War, but it became intolerable for me by the time the Star Wars sequels rolled around. I just remember leaving the theatre wondering why they thought it was a good idea to make every character Han Solo.
"They Han Solo now?!"
@@JDoe-gf5oz That "They fly now?" line was bad enough the first time, but they made the characters say it THREE times. lol
"Everyone likes Han Solo, so just make everyone Han Solo that way we can increase profits!" -Disney corporate suits
@@SammEater It would be nice if this were ANY less than 100% accurate.
Great call. That was the beauty of Han Solo. He was a blue-collar smuggler thrown in the middle of a space wizard battle so everything was mind-blowing. There is absolutely no reason a former storm trooper and rebel fighter would be surprised their enemy can fly.
Sincerity, or the lack thereof, is the real reason I've checked out of movies in the last few years.
Its become uncool to have characters care about things or show actual friendship or respond to the stakes of a situation with anything other than pithy quips that immediately lower the tension, and I absolutely hate it. Its hard to get invested in a world when the characters so clearly DON'T.
One of my favourite movies is the Legend of Zorro with Antonio Banderas. That movie is charming and funny and has plenty of witty banter, but only ever in situations where bantering makes sense. When Zorro is facing down the villain at the end, he's seriously fighting for his life without a quip in sight, as you would if it were real! I connect so much more with Zorro than any Marvel hero because the movie treats his stakes as serious and isn't afraid to expect that I'll be invested enough to do the same.
You can still find good movies that don't this, you just have to be a bit careful with where you look. Avoiding all superhero movies is probably a good rule of thumb.
Also, anime is honestly a good place to go if you want sincerity. They really don't give a fuck in Japan, they'll have their characters in the most insane scenarios and it'll be taken seriously. The Ghibli movies are obviously great.
You could always just watch actually good movies
I was thinking about this after watching the latest Spider-Verse film. There's plenty of humor in the movie, but none of it is really poking fun at the absurdity of the world in a way that makes the world feel undercut. And it has plenty of moments where characters are sincere and it really hits home.
The Spider-Verse movies have been a ray of light amongst a sea of mediocrity in the superhero movies world.
I think that the trick that the movie uses is that it never feels like the characters are winking towards the audience for a gag. Though characters like Gwen and Miles do point out the absurdity of the situations and characters they're surrounded by, it never feels like they're making a joke for the audience. Their reactions feel genuine and authentic to the kinds of people they are. This is actually rather interesting given that Spider-Verse is and incredibly meta film. It's just that instead of using "meta" as an excuse to cram in stale memes and elbow the audiences' ribs as they make their super fun and relatable references, it instead creates genuine metafiction that questions the necessity of tropes within its own genre and the main characters' place as a character both within the fictional world and in ours. It's genuinely one of the few films I've seen in recent memory to actually understand what being meta can do for a story and utilizes it to enhance the storytelling rather than distract from it.
@@Hemlocker What I love is that they're going for a trilogy. I think Marvel and DC have both kinda abandoned the idea of trilogies, of the three act structure, because they know they're just going to keep making movies or reboot them in a few years anyway.
it's wild if you follow counterculture spaces one of the biggest trends I've noticed as of recently is genuine sincerity and vulnerability. You have to imagine it's in direct reaction to the infestation of Joss Whedon dialog and any number of insufferable twitter randos that proclaim themselves as "fluent in snark". I hope we can look back at sarcasm nowadays like we look at fart and gross out humor in the 90s.
It comes in cycles, I think.
@@Bustermachine Like a sewage?
The fart and grossout humor was largely an accident. Because the Farrely Bros. had Jim Carrey--then the biggest upcoming celebrity of the time--participating in it in DUMB & DUMBER, it caught on. But for a brief window of time, the Farrely's were largely in control of it; no one else was doing it really. But once THERE'S SOMETHING ABOUT MARY exploded, then everybody ran with it, and when AMERICAN PIE hit it big the next year for that reason, it solidified it for the next several years.
It was originally used because no one else was doing it and the unexpectedness of it accentuated the comedy. But the jokes without the gross-out were already funny, the gross-out was a highlight or an accessory. But they eventually became the meat when the imitators jumped in.
@@Bustermachine Everything comes in cycles. Everything turns and returns.
@@Theomitethis is a great observation
The reason why all this shit happens in cycles is that it starts out as a radical gesture and then, because of it's impact, becomes adopted and mass-marketed until all the merit inside it is lost. It's not the thing itself, it's the insincere exploitation of it that is the problem. Joss Whedon's style works for projects that are in that vein. But adapting his tactics to things that don't clearly backfire and erode things over time.
We need to do something about our tendency to run things into the ground every time they pop up. We just gorge the shit out of every new thing until it becomes tired and stale before it's even explored and used properly.
Well do you have a solution for it because I can't think of anything.
I do agree though
@@g5studio21Capitalism is a big driver of this. Lots of trends become trends because products are made to entice people to spend money in it.
However, if you could utilize social media to where the trends work like a block party, where they all exist simultaneously and people can migrate from one to another at will, then rather than burning out, they either settle down or cross-pollinate into something different. But this way there's undulating momentum, so things don't stagnate but flow into each other.
That’s just the nature of markets, I guess. We do the same thing to Earth, why would we be any different with culture?
It's like Shrek.
Shrek came out making fun of true loves kiss, making fun of princesses, making fun of fairytales (and Disney)
Then people copied them. Now making fun of classic fairytales is normal.
Then Puss in Boots 2 came out and said "Hey, here's a story about a man outrunning death", classic fairytale stuff, and everyone loves it because it's so new.
Lazy execs not wanting to pay writers a decent wage enough to have a decent meal every night to feed themselves for the next day of work
I watched the re-release of Titanic back in February and I was blown away by how unabashedly earnest the movie is. Honestly, it was kinda refreshing. The movie is cheesy as hell but I love how shamelessly sincere it was in telling Jack and Rose’s story without a hint of irony. That’s a movie completely confident in itself and its premise.
don't use the word "cheesy"!!!
@@9crossI don’t even mean it’s “cheesy” in pejorative way. It’s clearly a stylistic choice the movie makes and commits to fully.
I _love_ Titanic with all my heart. I wouldn't use the word cheesy per se, maybe more syrupy and saccharine. To me, cheesy denotes a level of campiness, which I don't think Titanic has. But either way, I totally agree with you! Every time I watch that movie, I don't care if the emotions are getting dramatic and the music is building to a crescendo, I get swept up into the moment heart and soul. When Rose jumps from the lifeboat back onto the ship, I'm all, "YES, HONEY! Find him! Run to him!". I sing 'My Heart Will Go On' with the purest yearning I can manifest.
I take Titanic 100% seriously and no cynic since 1998 has been able to convince me otherwise. And I do definitely remember when it was cool to rag on it. It's definitely a movie that is not ashamed to completely play it straight, and I'll love it for eternity.
James Cameron is a king of sincerity
The movie fucking blows.
The thing is you can't send "the right message" to Hollywood executives. They will always demand what they perceive is the cause to success instead of what actually was the reason. Barbie was successful because it was such a different take by competent indie writers and director with big actors. Instead of that they took away that people like toy movies and announce 14 movies based on Mattel properties such as Hot Wheels, Magic 8 Ball, Uno, and Major Matt Mason.
So true 😂. The boardroom and the writers room are in different buildings, metaphorically. I’m convinced that execs are living in their own little world of financial graphs and pie charts and have no grounding in anything artistically genuine. Maybe they should watch more CZcams film commentaries
You say that, but when we remove Hollywood execs out of the equation, we get the complete crap that is most netflix movies. So maybe they know more than you think? Perhaps the box office outweighs the film scholars on youtube?@@champagne.future5248
I can't help but imagine how cringe the Cantina Scene in A New Hope would be with modern writing "oh yeah, everyone going to act like its totally normal all these aliens are here, I guess this is a spaceport."
They're so insecure about their movie being riffed on that they riffed themselves which simultaneously destroys the riff potential AND the original work.
I suppose the auralnauts version is probably a good preview of what that would have been like. At least, if it were actually funny.
@@RAFMnBgaming "Oh, and Literally Satan! That makes sense..."
@@Mick_92cinema sins ahh quote
oh gods i can imagine it now,
like when han boasts about his ship's speed and obi wan responds with silent amusement,
if it were written nowadays the movie would stop to point out that han was lying through his teeth to get hired,
Han: “this is the ship that made the kessel run in under 12 parsecs”
Luke: “um English please??”
Honestly, I blame CinemaSins. So many people have been trained to look at cinematic worlds nowadays and think "gosh, this doesn't make any damn sense" or make goofy jokes at the expense of it, making it harder to tell an emotional or sincere story without it being picked apart, either by the audience or by itself.
Critical thinking Ex Machina cliche **ding**
I doubt CinenaSins is cause of all of this
I used to occasionally watch CinemaSins back in the day, but the schtick got old the more sardonic and nitpicky it became. I'm a bigger fan of CinemaWins myself.
@@LadyDecember cinema wins are faar less aggravating, at least with that channel they point out when a part of a movie is distractingly bad without the tired exaggerated snark that cinemasins uses
WELL...a good story SHOULD at least make internal sense, though. I think some of the scenes CinemaScenes and the like poke at deserve the jabs they're getting, but they are getting them from a commentary genre, not within the film genre itself. If a good comic book movie kept the internal logic of it's plot and characters I think it would be a lot harder for sardonic film essayists to criticize.
When the new D&D movie came out I saw it praised in multiple places for how sincere it was. I loved that movie because it succeeded in being genuinely fun and funny without relying on this kind of self-aware humor, or making its characters feel annoying and unlikeable. I’d love to see more fantasy blockbusters like it.
Yeah I kept waiting for the moment they would ruin it with a fourth wall break, but they tip toed the line very nicely.
But it flopped which for Hollywood is the same as, don't make films like this anymore
When I finally got around to watching LOTR, the sincerity and romance struck me as the best part. It was a massive shock after years of parody and self aware media.
I think this is also why Harry Potter is successful. Compare to Percy Jackson with super sarcastic, overly aware quirky first person narrator. MG/YA books only went down hill from there.
Absolutely. I just finally watched LOTR for the first time this month and was blown away. I finally understand why the movies are so timeless and loved. You can really see in the characters faces that they are quite sure they will die at the end and are still pushing through til the end. Beautiful
I get you like cringy "sincerity" cause you're a pathetic runt that's afraid that the universe doesn't give a fuck about your sorry lives
I know exactly what you are talking about with this.
A few days ago I rewatched The Return of the King with my best friend and we both cried when Sam said "Come on Mr Frodo! I can't carry the ring for you! But I can carry you!"
We were trying to figure out why we love that scene so much, and we came to the conclusion that it's because very few movies portray such a powerful and sincere platonic love between two male characters.
If you have two characters helping each other in a modern Hollywood movie, they are either sexually attracted to each other, or they are forced to stay together by the plot. It's actually kind of sad how few platonic relationships are shown in movies/shows nowadays, especially between two male characters.
So I cheer for moments like that Mission Impossible clip from the beginning, Where Benji is opening up to his need to protect Ethan. It's not his duty as an agent, it's his duty as a friend.
Sorry if I sound like an armchair psychologist, but I feel like if you find moments of platonic love in movies cheesy, it's probably because you don't have any meaningful relationships in your life.
So in other words, you think that tweet at the beginning has the same energy as, "Uh, kinda gay, bro."
I agree. Screw that tweet.
@@thegodofalldragons I don't wanna jump to conclusions, but yes. That tweet reeks of someone with emotional immaturity and lack of literacy. But honestly that describes most twitter users.
@@gerardolanci8900 Most twitter users are dumber than dog shit. Social media has made the world dumber and smaller.
It's so annoying when Hollyweird can't have two males or two females just be friends anymore and not 'friends with benefits' or 'secretly hot for each other'.
What about a romantic relationship between two men make their actions any less sincere? I understand the desire for healthy portrayals of men's relationships in media, and the positive cultural effects that can have, but why imply that a homosexual perspective cheapens their actions or makes them any less meaningful?
Sorry if I sound like I have a molten rod up my ass, but it feels like every time this "why can't two men just be friends anymore without it being GAY" stuff comes up, it most charitably feels like it's blowing the situation vastly out of proportion. Correct me if I'm wrong, but as of now, there are vastly more healthy portrayals of platonic relationships between two men than there are romantic ones. One doesn't come at the expense of the other.
That’s something I love about David Lynch movies. I’ve heard the term used to describe it as Dream Logic, where no one questions the absurd happenings or draws too much attention to it with a “what the heck is going on?” They just live through the circumstances.
great vid
Yep
It's what I liked about Airplane. Tons of oddball stuff going on in the background and foreground as a set piece that the characters take one hundred percent seriously. One of the most stupid jokes that got a laugh out of me was the air traffic control communicating with a pilot and in the background you see a guy open up a door to what looks like a laundry machine and loading up some bedsheets.
@@dizzydial8081 It's pretty telling when characters in an outright comedy made back then take things more seriously than characters in modern action movies.
Emotions and sincerity makes people uncomfortable because it forces them to immerse themselves into the world and face the emotions and situations of the scene head on, face to face. And that’s a good thing.
This is a mindset very prevalent in general now. More and more, people don't take much of anything seriously because it's "not cool to care". Or it's "cringe" to be passionate, especially about perceptively juvenile things. Sincerity is dying in society and it's reflected in our media.
I think snarky, dry humor works when the characters are making jokes, but not when the writers are making jokes. I think of Iron Man in the first Avengers movie- his humor works there because it's somwthing that HE does, not something that the writers make any old character do for a quick laugh. He IS a snarky self-confident asshole, so when he makes those jokes he's just acting in character. And most importantly, he never made jokes about how the situation he was in was absurd. He might take things a little light-heartedly, but you always got the sense that he was actually invested in what he was doing. I think a lot about the "Shakespeare in the park" joke from when he fights Thor, and why it works so well when other jokes in later movies don't. I think it's because Tony is still acting within the scene, making a joke to insult Thor (who has just taken Loki from the Avengers, and whom Tony thinks is less qualified to handle the situation). The joke isn't that the situation the writers came up with is absurd, it's that Tony finds Thor's cape to be absurd.
@@gabe_s_videos Comparing Bojack Horseman to this shit is downright vile.
@@gabe_s_videos Bruh the point of Bojack Horseman is that he is a depressed sarcastic asshole about everything because he is afraid of insincerity. It's very much a case of it being the character and I can't think of many scenes where it feels like the writer is doing it. Plus the show knows when to take itself seriously and stop making jokes which it does in nearly every scene that is actually meant to be sincere
There definitely are "writer-jokes" in the first Iron Man movie. Like in the sequence where Tony is working on his second suit in his home workshop. He hurts himself in almost slapstick ways, while testing his new suit's prototypes. But those jokes work because they're not undermining the gravitas of Tony's character or his motivations. They're establishing that Tony isn't perfect or infallible. He can bumble and fumble and make mistakes, just like anyone else. They're actually helping to heighten the tension, by making Tony seem vulnerable.
That's a way of including jokes in an otherwise serious movie, without sacrificing sincerity.
That's actually a really good way to describe the difference, I like that!
@@tbotalpha8133 How does Tony testing his suit and the slapstick comedy that ensues at all "writer-jokes"? What does that even mean?
Another movie that you didn't mention that takes itself completely seriously is Dune - and I love it for it ! There are no interjections to deliberately ruin sincere moments with a pun, there is no fourth-wall breaking winking and nodding at the audience, there are no "They fly now ? - They fly now !"-comedy skits in the middle of a (supposedly) deadly chase scene etc.
yeah but if you mention a movie that you were a lead in then it feels a bit on the nose, don't you think?
I'd take a movie full of Whedonism then have to have watch friggin' Zendaya.
@@JDoe-gf5ozShe’s barely in it
@@books2438That's still too long.
@@JDoe-gf5ozwe’ll see how part 2 handles it
the way I saw Joss Whedon's avengers was that during the time when super hero movies where still trying to find their footing, we had an abundance of super hero films take a serious/realistic approach within cinema. the reason avengers' quippy blend with action and sincerity worked was cause it appealed to the die hard fans of the comics while also being open to more skeptical audiences. meaning when a skeptic sees a giant killer whale fly through New York and a joke or quip is made, the skeptics are relieved to know even the movie is aware with how ridicules situation is. Now that superheroes are fully accepted into the mainstream the need to appeal to skeptical audiences fall more flat. ages ranging from 13 to 40 (even the odd 50 to 60) are more open to the idea outlandish story telling. It feels like in todays filmography producers are scared to let the movie breath or feel, which is a shame cause it makes the audience feel like they're being talked down on. This might just be me but if you feel the need to have a character poke fun at an idea or name or storyline or whatever. maybe instead of that, write something else. cause if a creator doesn't care for their work why should the audience?
I think you got it in one
Totally agree. Yeah actually I think that's is the reason why this sort of "Well That Just Happened" humor is so annoying in such large doses is that it generally feels like the movie is talking down to you, like the movie is making fun of you by making fun of itself and saying "Who the hell would ever go to see a movie like this? You paid for this, what the fuck is wrong with you?"
I'm a Kingdom Hearts fan, and one of the reasons why I still believe that is because, despite the premise being kind of silly (a young teenager travels to various Disney worlds to fight monsters with a giant key and sometimes FF and other Squenix characters show up), the story and the characters within it take themselves seriously from beginning to end. There's never really a moment (that at least I can recall) that the writing takes a moment to wink and nod at the audience, and IMO, it's all the better for it. Obviously the series has its moments of comedy to break up the seriousness, but it's NEVER at the expense of the narrative. Kingdom Hearts doesn't make fun of its audience for being invested in its world and narrative, and I think we can all learn something form it.
I think the only time Kingdom Hearts did this type of joke was the Frozen world when they kept falling off the mountain
I was literally thinking about how seriously KH takes itself while watching this video, despite not being a fan who thinks the series is way too contrived.
This video covers exactly what I hoped it did.
I'm kinda sick of these movies being so scared of being called sentimental that they're putting up emotional walls.
They're robbing themselves of actual emotional catharsis.
I think this style of humour works when the comic relief comes from a few specific characters. When Iron Man and Spider-Man make these quips, it fits their personalities. They make light of everything, even though they take their core values seriously. But when every character does this, it gets annoying. And when all the characters have the same sense-of-humour, they don't feel like believable individuals, and instead it feels like the writer making light of the story.
It doesn't even work when those characters act like a stand up act 24/7
@@joseislanio8910it works with Ironman cus he clearly does it as a defense mechanism more than anything
@@Gaming_Legend2 even with him it was overused.
@@joseislanio8910 Yeah, I kinda don't like Spiderman anymore in part because of this. He's a cool dude now, and not even a nerd. Both the Garfield and Holland versions are a little too "popular" and snarky.
And when they don't do it all the time. It can even help the impact of certain scenes. When even the comic relief shuts up you say "oh fuck"
The first time I heard a character say "Well that just happened!" was Daria in "Is it Fall Yet" after the camp councilor threw a chair through a window and everyone else ran outside. It was about the year 2000 and that was hilarious and on the nose for Daria. But I have recently been rewatching "Daria" and Daria is one of my least favorite characters now - maybe some of it is no longer being a teenager myself, but the other part of it is being so burnt out on that style of humor.
NB: I found that clip on TikTok. It was a sink thrown out the window (not a chair), and Daria says deadpan "Well even I'll admit I found that amusing." But it was the "that just happened" style.
This is just what happens when everything has to be a franchise. You can't have every film leaving a crater in the audiences' hearts if you plan to bombard them for the next 20 years, or have them compare your new stuff to the oldies they remember. The brighter the flame, the sooner it'll burn out, and we can't have that in our perpetual money machine. Keep things mild, manageable, and appropriately forgettable, artistry be damned to nine hells and back. This is all planned and measured by the studio.
Interesting. "Just enough above average to keep us going" does seem to be the motto. I think (or hope) that it's starting to run its course though. At least in terms of the superhero franchises.
@@Hemlocker People became somewhat interested in superhero movies in the second half of the 2010s, and that’s about it. It was a fad that came and went. Also, when I say superhero, I mean marvel
I had a thought. I wonder if this is part of why the Lord of the Rings movies are still revered. They had humor, but overall they embraced being sincere and committed fully to the world of Middle-Earth. It probably did a lot to make the world feel real and sell it, because the characters weren't afraid to be vulnerable and the films never made fun of themselves for the material. I think the closest we get to a character remarking, "well, that happened," is "that still only counts as one." But that works because it's part of a running sub-plot of the kill-count contest between Legolas and Gimli.
When Sam sees an Oliphaunt, there's no "wink wink, it's just an oversized elephant" it shows Sam as awed by a creature he'd heard stories of but never seen before.
When the second in command villain is called "the Witch-King" no one makes a joke of "haha, he's a guy but he's called a Witch." They treat him as a legitimate threat.
The Orc actors, credit where it's due, really got into their role of acting despicably. The closest their was to a 'comic relief' villain was Wormtongue, and he was more just made to be a pathetic man.
Not to say the movies are perfect, but they are still unbelievably good.
The series embraced being a noble story, embraced giving epic speeches, it embraced being authentic and sincere as a work meant to both be enjoyed and to give hope to people.
Yes the humor is very much in sync with the rest of the story. Aragon's "it's the beards" line (which is an extended scene I think) when talking about female dwarves (this has to do more with chemistry and Aragorn being suave as fuck with ladies), the orc's "meat's back on the menu boys!" played as a gag when the Hobbits basically fall into their lap, etc. The Hobbit suffers from the overuse of it because it was made much later and "under new management" so to speak.
I don't like the goofy scenes on LotR.
It feels so immature and dusturbing.
Bring 👏 back 👏 intimidating villains. If the villains in modern movies are quippy or the protagonists treat them like jokes, why should the audience treat them any different?
That's why the death of boromir still hits on such an emotional level
My only complaint on this front is how they treated Gimli. Book-Gimli is a dignified Dwarf-prince, a bit out of his element but committed to the Fellowship's quest. While film-Gimli feels more like a D&D stereotype of a Dwarf - a short, burly meathead with a fragile ego. Hell, in the books Gimli is awed by Galadriel's beauty, and requests just 1 of her hairs as a keepsake. While in the films Gimli nurses the same arbitrary disdain for Elves as you'd find at any D&D table. He gets over it eventually, but book-Gimli never went there in the first place.
Moments like the octopus scene are exactly why I loved Aquaman. It took the 'you talk to fish' concept and made it matter. Arthur doesn't win because he's stronger or faster or better skilled. He wins because he is the son of two worlds, and struggles to learn about them both. And those kinds of scenes are dead and gone now that comic book movies are either Marvel or a basically guaranteed failure. This was something Fox did well with the X-Men films, going so far as to take the 'We need you to...hope again.' line into the coda of their most successful trailer for Days of Future Past.
There is definitely a middle ground to be found, and some films from the decade before this trend started did lean hard enough into sincerity that they were ridiculed, and rightly so. But the alternative isn't stuffing anything made for more than 150 million with bathos. Even Indiana Jones and the Dial of Destiny - the forth sequel in a pulp action franchise which should have been about friends going on a final journey together and solving everything with a good right hook - was stuffed to the brim with insufferable 'witty' dialog.
Ironically, the new Indiana Jones movie also suffers from being too depressing. We don't want to see classic characters become old and miserable!
@@genericname2747 Precisely! On paper I think i understand: Logan was a triumph, and the thought of doing it again with another aging hero nearing the end of his life was enough to get things moving. But that fundamentally misunderstands what Logan was about and what Indi has always BEEN about! Wolverine as a character has always had a tragic past while Indi is cut from a different cloth. We didn't need to find out he feels he wasted his life, we didn't need his son to die in Vietnam (just maybe not be in the movies anymore? thanks.) and we didn't need someone else to solve his problem for him, especially offscreen!
Man, you remember how absolutely pragmatic Wolverine was in those films? Someone does a dramatic table flip because they're angry and he just calmly talks them out of their fit, then just as calmly asks "You want to pick that shit up now?" Wry, yes, but very true to the character, salt of the earth take on things. I miss that.
The flip side of this is how often children's cartoons are well received by adults. Actual cartoons aimed at children can have very emotionally deep and sincere messages, that aren't hurt at all by whatever goofy stuff is happening.
The cartoon dogs can do silly things all episode, and be very emotionally serious.
Yeah perfect example of this is the fact that there was a Bluey episode where the mother dog actually explained to Bluey that her sister was sterile, I believe actually using the term, and it tried and failed to have children before, or there was an episode of Friendship is Magic where they actually dealt with the idea of someone being born disabled even though they didn't use the term per se. Her magic didn't work basically, but it was in no way unclear as to what that meant. In a Marvel movie, they would have had somebody make some sort of quip about how she's disabled or how Bluey's mother had a failed pregnancy.
I actually think that the rise of “the golden age of television” might have an effect on this too. So many sincere and emotional moments have been done in popular streaming shows so now I think a lot of people think tv is the only medium that can have sincerity. A two hour movie doesn’t feel like enough time to earn the emotion it’s presenting. I don’t agree, of course, but it could be a contributing factor.
At the same time though, I feel like a lot of TV shows started leaning so far into grimdarkness that they still lose the sincerity in it. The Walking Dead was practically a glorified snuff film, it was depressing and exhausting. The first two seasons of Star Trek: Discovery were the same way. There were no lighthearted, sincere moments to make the dark moments worth anything and most of the characters feel like the perpetually-depressed people that are tough to be around.
"Rocket is kind of a deconstruction of the snarky, quippy hero..."
Well, in the third movie, he's also a deconstruction in more ways than one, so you're not wrong!
...dark
I yearn for moments like in revenge of the sith when anakin screams at obiwan that he hates him. I never rly got over that scene and those movies. Go back and watch those. For me the campy sincere and dramatic dialogue is extremely refreshing and welcome in today's age.
The only big flaw in Hayden's acting is his voice.
I watched the prequels dubbed as a kid and never thought of him as pathetic. Now I rewatched them in English and, although there are a couple of scenes where his emotions are strange, the dialog isn't sticking together too well, yet the biggest offenders are his weak voice and frequent voice cracks.
To his credit though, the yelling he's done was emotional.
@@Halo_LegendWhich dub did you watch them in?
And let's not forget, "You were my brother, Anakin, and I loved you."
This is incredibly true when you remember Ep9 and that "joke" when stormtrooper with a jetpack appears: "they flying now" repeated few times. As if they were so scared of adding new thing that might piss people off (and let's be fair, with TFA and TLJ people were less than pleased with Disney already) that they started to laugh it off instantly.
It’s possible that the dedicated sincerity to the ridiculous Star Wars universe is what has helped the prequels gain traction with the rising generation.
I grew up on Hollywood epics like The Ten Commandments and I was used to the earnestness in which the characters delivered some honesty kinda wacky lines (just look for clips of The Ten Commandments or Ben Hur and you’ll see what I mean) and I honestly attribute my okay-ness with “corny” dialogue to those movies and the Star Wars prequels. They believed in themselves.
I honestly dont believe that were being conditioned this way by movies. WE did this. Audiences turned on sincerity and after a decade people are realizing that they actually miss it. The age of cynical irony is near the end.
I hope you right. And well.
The real problem is that there's too many blockbusters and not enough mid range movies anymore. We need an industry that can afford to experiment and take chances.
More people should be talking about this. Mid budget movies need to come back.
"Well, that happened"
I fucking HATE, HATE, HATE this stock dialogue (and all variations of it) and I completely agree with everything you said in this video. Another example of this type of thing that immediately came into my mind is when Asgard was destroyed in Thor: Ragnarok but that dickhead Taika Waititi decided to turn the destruction of Asgard into the punchline for a joke that Korg made. I'm sick of the age of irony we live in. I just want a return to sincerity.
Oh, god yes. Ragnarok had it's good moments, but damn that ending soured me on the entire film.
And then he solidified himself as being the Joel Schumacher of Marvel with his direct follow up Love and Blunder
I was so frustrated by this because let’s face: thors people lost their home world. It’s destroyed and no one can ever bring it back again. It’s probably like earth would have exploded and someone made a dumb joke about it. We would take probably for the rest of humanity to mourn. It was their home. It should have had the feeling like the start of Mass effect 3, when you leave earth. But instead it was made a fucking joke.
Movies and series today feel sometimes like they’re afraid to let people feel upset.
Yeah, I enjoyed Thor: Ragnarok but there was something offputting about it I could never put my finger on. It doesn't feel like it is or really wants to be a Thor movie so much as Guardians of the Galaxy with Thor as the lead. Stuff like the Warriors Three dying immediately or the Korg joke you mentioned just makes you feel stupid for caring about anything that happened in the first two movies.
Irony is everywhere now and I'm so sick of it. People online can't form an entire sentence without shoving some meme in there.
Weirdly, I think this kind of dialogue has actually affected younger generations. I've noticed a lot of younger people experience difficulty expressing sincere emotion, opting for jokes and quips instead. It's sad to see how influential awful Hollywood writing can be.
Don't forget all the snarky kids shows where everyone's super sassy and witty.
This is the real goal of it
Hasn't that notion of teenagers being incredibly insecure about themselves been in pop culture for decades? It's just a new expression for an existing idea. Before, the trope was extreme sarcasm, eye rolling, and the all-time classic of "Whatever". The sarcasm of yesterday and constant humor of today accomplish the same purpose: concealing their true feelings from the other, equally cynical teenagers who they were always around
Young people have always been like this, that’s what they do best lol. Kids will express themselves in whichever way is most comfortable, and if the environment that they’re raised in (friends and family, not media) doesn’t give them room for sincerity, they’ll use humor instead. It’s almost like they’re humans who haven’t had a whole lot of experiences in life yet.
@@aetranm I understand that these people are products of their environments. I just hate when I listen to zoomers trying to interact and it sounds like an Avengers straight-to-dvd sequel.
Lethal weapon is imo the perfect example of a serious movie saga that while having tons of hilarious scenes it doesn’t let that stray away from the fact that it’s a more serious buddy cop action thriller. Or the first 3 die hards.
The M:I series has a lot of moments like the one here that show how much the cast cares about each other and I love it. In the same vein, despite how ridiculous they can be I 100% buy in anytime someone in Fast and Furious starts talking family. And then every movie has a nice scene where they get together and have dinner, its great!
I still remember how Great scene was when in Iron Man Armored Adventures Tony has a mental breakdown after learning that his Father built weapons in the past & starts to becoming paranoic, just to be consolated by Roberta Later by telling him: _"You are the reason of why your father stop selling weapons, & where ever he is right now, he's proud of the man you're becoming"_
Good luck finding that moment in MCU films
How about you learn the singular and plural versions of the most common words, hm?
@@Halo_Legendhe reads ESL. Relax.
@@Halo_Legend you are the problem this video is talking about, this person was sincere in their appreciation for a scene they like and then you just had to undercut it with one eyebrow raised and a smug grin. And while it is obvious this person struggles with english that doesn't give you the right to be a douchebag.
This is a great essay, thank you! I never realized that this was such a huge thing.
I used to be a big fan of Buffy and its sense of humor, and the thing about that show is while all characters made those jokes, Whedon and the other writers on staff had the sense back then to balance out those jokes with some real heavy shit. And in a long, 7 season TV show, I guess they had more space to experiment with funnier and more dramatic episodes/scenes. They never felt out of balance. Even in the first Avengers movie, he let those heavier scenes breathe, so it wasn't just funny, it was allowed to be funny AND dramatic, and epic, when it needed to be. It was only after other writers attempted that same sense of style, where it got out of balance for me at least.
Gunn is an expert in using those funny lines to serve into the drmatic aspects of this writing, so the two styles can live side by side.
Looking forward to more videos you make!
Exactly. There are jokes in Buffy, characters making smart allec remarks about the crazy thing that happened, but it's not constant. Even when they do make a quip, the threat is still a threat, actions have consequences, people suffer. Honestly one of the reasons I love the tone of Buffy and Firefly is that it feels more real than straight drama or comedy. Life, in my experience, is tragedy and comedy interwoven. So in that sense those shows are descendants of shows like MASH, where they joke about the war, but also suffer the war.
Agreed, Whedon's work up until Justice League (which tbf was already partially done when he got it) was a refreshing balance between humor and heart. It's mainly the Marvel (and other studios) writers that have tried to emulate his formula that have lost the heart
@@claudiadarling9441 100%
Life itself is not just dramatic, but sometimes unnecesarily funny in those sincere moments as well. Best example to me is Anya's speech in "The Body" where she is still quirky as hell, and yet, is allowed to proess the absurdity of death, in her own style, in a bit of a childish and innocent way, that makes things all the more heartbreaking.
@@claudiadarling9441 And in the real world, a common way of dealing with intense situations or jobs is humour. in BtVS, the characters were high school students who found out their town is overrun with monsters and each night could potentially be their last, so finding a way to cope with that fact feels entirely appropriate. But the show knew when the characters would NOT be laughing or being ironic, and some of the best moments come from when the joking suddenly stops.
Yeah and Buffy still takes itself seriously even during episodes that have goofier premises. One of the saddest episodes in the show is a musical episode, a stock plot that never gets used seriously. As much as Joss sucks as a person he used to be really good at balancing the winks and nudges with actual storytelling.
One of my biggest hated dialogue cliches is when a character says: "This is the scene in the film where I ask you to...."
The first example of this that I'm aware of is in P.T. Anderson's Magnolia, when Phillip Seymour Hoffman uses it to convince someone on the telephone to help him get in touch with Tom Cruise's character. It has been driven into the ground since then.
‘This is the part where I shut the hell up because whoever wrote this dialogue is a jackass.’
I've noticed this in so many movies, it's the modern day equivalent of a laugh track on sitcoms, like the studio thinks the audience is so dumb that they need to be told how to feel about each moment in the movie.
5:55 The irony is, if it was JUST Hawkeye and Widow bantering, itd just be a fun character moment that highlights their long history together. Its the unfocused snark that ruins it.
(And I guess Spiderman but since thats his Entire Thing I'd give it a pass)
Right?? Hawkeye and Black Widow aren't really invested on the fight, and Spiderman and Antman are just here for the ride. Everyone else should be serious, like how Black Panter refuses to banter with Hawkeye.
So something that stuck out to me that I once heard regarding super hero movies. I don't remember where it was, but the speaker juxtaposed the X-men movies against modern marvel. In particular he referenced a scene where cyclopes mockingly asks wolverine, 'What did you expect, yellow spandex?' mocking the comicbook costumes.
I think the point was that Comicbook movies had 'arrived' now that they were taken 'seriously'. But the truth is that comic book movies never took themselves seriously. They've been ridiculing themselves like the kid in school who has the popular table's attention but has no idea why.
-Gen Z- People who are 25 and younger have a big problem with labeling everything that has a shred of sincerity or earnesty as "cringe". That's _why_ Disney and pop culture at large have the irritating constant meta-awareness and winking to the audience. It's an ouroborous where they think this way because that's the media they were raised on. But the media is made because the youth think this way.
"The new rebels are artists willing to risk the yawn, the rolled eyes, the cool smile, the nudged ribs, the parody of gifted ironists, the ‘Oh how banal’. To risk accusations of sentimentality, melodrama. Of overcredulity. Of softness."
- David Foster Wallace, "E Unibus Pluram: Television and U.S. Fiction", 1993
Great video man! You articulated your thoughts so well, and your memes are solid to boot.
So this has been going on for a long time, huh
@@Woodside235 yes, although I don't think it was ubiquitous in Wallace's time. He wa probably among the first to decry the then-nascent trend
Pacific Rim (my favorite movie of all time) vs Pacific Rim Uprising (a sheer embarrassment) are the perfect embodiments of max sincerity vs none at all.
god, what a disappointment uprising was lmao
Oh ain't it the truth. Newt was my favorite character in the first one, and while I wasn't big on the direction his character took in the second, I wanted to have it seen through at least. The sequel was so unforgivably disappointing, though, that it's likely a third will never be made and we'll never see closure on the character. Newt was left on such a cliffhanger. It was not the sequel the first one deserved at all.
And the fact the huge battle took place in daytime where the weather is sunny...
if Pacific Rim is your favorite movie then you desperately need to watch more movies
@@luigiwiiUU I've seen tons of movies spanning the whole history of film. My only blind spot really is horror films.
Have I seen plenty that are *objectively* better than Pacific Rim? Yes.
Does objective quality determine what's my *favorite*? No.
Hope this helps :3
@@Neogeddon personally id put Bayformers 1 over Pacific Rim cause at least its not boring
The thing people forget is that even Joss Whedon knew not to have characters constantly quip and make sardonic/sarcastic remarks. I mean, sure his writing often used self-referential humor, but it had a time and a place and when he needed to get serious he did so.
This is why avengers worked so well.
Avengers 2 though, that's when it started, then Civil War made it worse and it kept getting more and more annoying.
To paraphrase a popular saying, who's the bigger trendsetter? Is it the trendsetter or the trendsetter who follows the trendsetter?
It reminds me of that second gold rush of animated shows for adults post-South Park that JUST copied the political incorrectness, so all you got were jokes that were mean for the sake of being mean.
@@gabe_s_videos I mean, following trends in itself isn't a bad thing.
@@themadoneplays7842 Obviously not, I just think this particular trend has run it's course (and wasn't really that good to begin with).
@@gabe_s_videos Eh I don't mind this kind of humor but will agree it's way overused in modern storytelling. I mean there is nothing wrong with self-referential meta humor in small doses IMHO, but yeah it's become a crutch nowadays. Personally, I say anyone who uses this kind of thing must watch Buffy the vampire slayer at the very least and see how to implement it in a good way or even the first avenger's movie. Humor is subjective, of course, but still if you are going to ape Wheadon do it properly.
I feel like after how well Iron Man did, and the insanely positive reception Robert's character has gotten from everyone, its like all of Hollywood has been just trying to recreate that.
Man, this is such a great observation. I make films in my free time, and I don't think I've realized how much this subtle shift has affected how I make things. I already struggle with self-doubt and self-consciousness, and I think I've steered away from certain moments that risk being perceived as "corny" or "cringe". This is refreshing and gives me lots of food for thought, thank you!
Spot on the the death of sincerity. I think another way to express that is cynicism. I remember listening to a podcast discussing Andor and one of the people there was saying one of the strengths of the show is how uncynical it is. And that might sound peculiar considering the show's incredibly bleak tone, but he wasn't using the the word cynical in terms of tone, but in style. There's never a "wink wink" moment in Andor. No 4th wall breaking, no cheeky callbacks. Every character is 100% sincere and committed to what they are saying on the screen. Which in comparison to most of the stuff out there that is super cynical about that stuff, it was just so refreshing to watch a show about characters that CARED about what was happening on screen.
Another example to me is the difference between the Raimi Spider-man films and the MCU films. The MCU films are fine, they're not bad films, but they totally fall into that "Well that just happened" type of humor that the MCU is so known for. The scene where Otto Octavious tells MCU Spider-man and his friends his name and they all laugh and go, "No but seriously." That's a scene that simply would never exist in the Raimi films. The Raimi films are sincere, super sincere, almost to the point of parody. But there's a reason why those films have stuck around the public consciousness for so long. It resonates with viewers in a way that a lot of the new stuff simply don't. The new stuff is sacrificing emotional honesty for a momentary laugh.
I instantly thought of the Raimi Spider-Man vs the MCU Spider-Man
True. And there was a 'wink wink' moment in Spider-Man 2, in regards to Doc Ock, but do you know who did that?
Jameson, the belligerent chief of the Daily Bugle.
"Guy named Otto Octavius ends up with eight limbs. What are the odds?"
No one but him. And it works, because Jameson is _exactly_ the type of guy who'd make a joke like that, but the rest of the cast do not.
funnily enough, the infamous dance scene from spiderman 3 was one of the moments where raimi showed unsincerity, and it was heavily criticized lol
@@stardusstlmao what are you talking about? That scene is extremely sincere. The fact that people perceived it sincerely is the very reason why it was criticized.
The way I normally explain my deep distaste for this kind of writing is:
If you don't take yourself seriously (something that seems to be praised and encouraged for some reason), nobody will.
Out of all the emotions and feelings you could try to inspire in people, as an artist, you choose to sacrifice all of them to a single one, quick inhale air bad humor. It's not worth it.
I think this extends beyond media into our everyday lives. People are expected to have no emotions. Women are called Karen’s for getting upset, men aren’t allowed to hug their friends.
Edit: okay I’m not talking about entitled boomer women screaming at retail workers.. I’m talking about random videos of women having breakdowns and being called “Karen” for no other reason than they’re a woman.
I never put these two together but you're totally right, emotion is ridiculed
Women are called Karen for screaming at wagies over things that don't matter, get it right.
@@AJadedLizardno no they are called Karen’s for all emotions. It’s just became a substitute for ‘b1tch’. Women aren’t allowed to get upset in public. If they cry, they’re weaponizing tears, if they’re angry they’re Karen’s, if they’re friendly they’re Basic. 😅
@@mommalion7028 No, Karen, you get called that because you have childish metldowns in public where you scream at people for no good reason to get what you want, because society was structured to give women whatever they want so long as they can damsel the hardest, and folks are finally wising up and getting tired of it. The only people calling women "basic" for not being shitty are other women.
Yeah nah, Karen doesn’t get thrown around to this degree at all. I agree with everyone being irony poisoned and afraid of genuine emotion, but Karen came about naturally due to entitled shit heels behaving badly in public and online.
I write on Wattpad, and this lack of emotional investment from young readers is my biggest pain. It saps my motivation. I either get readers posting memes or tiktok references in the comments, post snarky jokes or pithy quips even in emotional scenes, or those who complain my story is too melodramatic. I do get readers whose sincere and engaged comments I genuinely enjoy, yes, but they're the minority.
These days, people are afraid to be vulnerable and sincere. They lack empathy. Being jaded, edgy and nihilistic and 'not caring' is the thing right now.
I personally avoid grimdark stories like GoT and go for LoTR. I like feel good stories. I like when goodness, kindness and honesty is rewarded. I like friendship and true love and happy endings. At least they teach us to aspire for a better world and not settle for what sucks with a shrug and a smirk.
oh god... wattpad
@@petatersandgravye2n I'm not writing BTS fanfiction, if that's what you're thinking of. I'm writing a regular epic fantasy, so yes, I expect readers to take the story seriously.
Nevertheless, what's wrong about Wattpad? I need it to build a fanbase for my book before I self publish. It's that or Booktok, which I might also have to sell my soul to someday. There aren't many marketing options if you don't have money.
Update: Today I actually received a comment on my story saying "Um, so, that happened" XD.
at least you get comments at all
@@ExValeFor Yeah...I should be grateful, I know >
Another thing is that, the writer thinks that if the goofiness is pointed out by some character then it is okay.
Which is not. It is still goofy but now you pointed it out, those who didn't understood it at 1st, now they also realised that. 😂
I can't remember which comedian talked about this, but when a comedian is bombing on-stage, the absolute worst thing they can do is say something like "well this is awkward, isn't it?". The only way they can salvage the situation is to just stick to whatever emotion or situation they were playing. Pointing out that something is goofy doesn't make the audience okay with it. Or in other words, audiences are much more likely to believe goofiness if the writer believes it themself.
This is one of the many reasons I've been turned off modern media. Having one character per movie like that is fine but now every character is the same. Everythings undermined by a joke or quip.
Very well said. I've never actually noticed how averse people were to sincerity in film and now it makes sense why the "marvel" humor is bleeding into so many different movies.
This is something that actually made The Little Mermaid live action remake refreshing: the romance is played completely sincerely. They easily could have had people snarking about Prince Eric being "in love" with a mystery girl he saw for all of 5 secs, but all of objections from his mother were serious and rooted firmly in the context of him having recently suffered trauma of a shipwreck and the established conflict he's had in convincing people that he's not just fanciful dreamer. The song they added for him was 2 minutes of the dude pining HARD with nary a wink to the audience and, after the shock of Prince Eric singing wore off, it was actually nice to see a male character in a modern movie give a fuck so unself-consciously.
I'm still halfway through the video so it might be mentioned at some point, but in case not, that trope is called "lampshading". And yeah, it definitely can become a crutch for when the writer is not so secure about the sincere moment so they can come across as though they're "in on the joke". Overtly Sarcastic Productions has a great video on it.
But I'm mostly commenting because I had somehow forgotten or missed that "Illumi-what-i?" joke in Doctor Strange 2, and oh my god it's awful. Not so much for the pun itself, but because it makes no sense coming out of that particular character's mouth. Of all characters, you really choose the one who's a scholar and a WIZARD to somehow never have heard the term Illuminati? Sure, he could be confused at this particular group of individuals calling themselves that, but the name Illuminati as "the enlightened" has been around since the 15th century. It would have immediately taken me out of the movie.
Exactly this guy has a PHOTOGRAPHIC memory, meaning he remembers EVERYTHING, yet that simple ass name went over his head?
That presumes that knowledge of the illuminati exists in the marvel universe. Sort of like how their norse mythology is presumably a big different. But uhh, I think he could also be expressing surprised at him being part of an organisation that has named itself after one of the biggest conspiracy theory hotpoints of the past hundred years. Like it's such an unabashedly 'bad guy' name that you'd laugh at anything with that name in real life. The same way you would if Bill Gates announced he was creating an organisation called 'The New World Order'. You'd think he'd actually gone insane.
God you're 100 percent right it makes absolutely no sense for him to not know what that word meant. Like, if they HAD to make him quip at least make it believable for the character saying it!
He should've just simply said "On my world, that's...not a good name for a superhero group"
It reminds me of that claymation film where a bunch of kids meet Satan, who calls himself an angel. When they react with stunned silence at his name, he asks what's the matter to which one of them responds "It's a pretty sorry name for an angel." I think that's what they were going for, but it definitely just came across like he had somehow never heard the most obvious cliche name for a group of bad guys.
This approach was what ruined Thor: Love and Thunder for me. I just couldn't enjoy it after a while, because there had to be a quippy little joke every ten seconds. I couldn't get invested in the emotional stuff, because I was expecting someone to undermine it with a quip.
Have you seen the deleted scene where Zeus gives some fatherly advice to Thor before he has to set off to stop Gorr? He doesn’t act like an asshat and has a realistic personality, while making subtle jokes that aren’t distracting and flow with the dialogue. Thor 4 had a shot at being a legitimately good serious movie, and they turned it into a stereotype of shitty marvel movies
I'm still mad at that movie for wasting Christian Bale that badly. The premise had such potential. But it was just another mediocre, 90% green screen mess. At this point, the MCU is really only hanging on by the great performances their actors still somehow manage to give.
You did a really good job at describing how ive been feeling about pieces of media for a long time
Thank you for putting this into such a concise video. Everything you’ve talked about has driven me crazy over the last 10 years or so with movies. I hate watching a serious scene and the audience laughs because they’re so trained to do so.
You're right. It makes many Hollywood films feel both inconsequential (when the characters don't take anything seriously, the audience can't either) and samey, as if the same guy is doctoring all of the scripts. I can see why they do it: because it's safer. If a film aims for genuine emotion then it risks failing and becoming unintentionally laughable, but if everything is played for "it's a laugh, innit?" then there's no comparable fail-state; it's all just "pantomime" and it won't be held to the same standard as something that's shooting for real drama.
Excellent video! The death of sincerity in a lot of Hollywood blockbusters has made me and others flock to the tokusatsu genre with shows like Kamen Rider and Ultraman. There, everything feels sincere and genuine, and it's such a breath of fresh air.
I’ve been flocking to Turkish dramas like Resurrection: Ertugrul
Fr
I have been watching the first kamen rider (and I keep forgetting to continue) and it feels nice to see people actually care for each other
But even Kamen Rider and Sentai have been having a similar problem ever since the 2000s. It's accelerated since the 2010s. The difference is Toei displays a "lack of commitment" differently than Hollywood is doing, and layers everything with dumb slapstick that dilutes the serious material of the shows.
The most egregious example, imo, was Hawkeye in Avengers two talking to Wanda. "The city is flying and we're fighting an army of robots. And I have a bow and arrow. Nothing makes sense." Yes, that's the current situation, and pointing out that it doesn't make sense _in the context of this film's universe_ ruins any suspension of disbelief in the audience.
Incredibly well put
This video is so cathartic! This stuff has been bothering me for a while and it’s great to hear someone articulate it so effectively
Up until Resurrections came out, Matrix 3 could have been considered the worst of the series.
But there's this scene near the end of 3 where Neo and Trinity are in the real world, flying this ship up into the sky to escape the sentinels.
The only real sky the people of that world knew was one always covered in clouds, but when the ship broke through them, Trinity got to see the real sky, and she said to herself, "It's beautiful."
That one great, uninterrupted scene in a mediocre film is better than anything in Matrix 4.
Well pointed-out. That moment struck a chord with me too.
Matrix 3 is diamond compared to the lump of coal Resurrections is. I still distinctly remember giving the latter a go when bored one night, and in the VERY FIRST SCENE there's this quirky girl being spotted by Agents, only for everything to pause for a few cringey seconds for her to make some kind of joke.
My mind instantly went back to the first scene of the original movie, and Trinity running desperate and scared (pointing her guns at the broken window, imploring herself to keep moving as her hands tremble slightly) from a single Agent.
The stark comparison instantly nuked my enjoyment and patience for Resurrections, and to this day I've never watched past that opening scene and I never will.
Sorry for the rant it feels good to express such things sometimes.
I almost never sleep in movie theatres when watching a movie, regardless of i'm enjoying it or not...
I slept halfway through Matrix Resurrections, don't remember most of it only the goofy scenes, and for me the movie was 1 hour long because of how much i slept through it
hating on Matrix 4 will not make you cool schmuck. you're still boring as shit
Resurrections is the second-best Matrix movie, though.
I think this is why I love HiFi Rush so much. I felt uncomfortable my first time through the penultimate track, because I genuinely thought the game was going to point and laugh at me for feeling feelings during the big Power of Friendship moment. But it never did, and on subsequent playthroughs I let myself be completely immersed in the cheese.
It's a goofy game, but it's entirely sincere, with the peak of that being the phrase "I don't need a guitar... I AM a rockstar." There's humor in the scene, but in this overtly goofy game, the sincerity is played completely straight, and is never made fun of.
Hi-Fi Rush is fucking amazing and a breath of fresh air, considering the modern gaming industry.
Japan's generally just better at being totally unapologetic and sincere in its writing.
I really enjoyed this video! Thank you for making and sharing it.
I recently re-read Infinite Crisis. It's a combination of serious and quippy, even when people are dying left, right and centre.
My favorite dialog is between Batman and Nightwing.
Batman: "The early years. They were good for you, right?"
Nightwing: "The best."
It's like when your enjoying a really good meal and the waiter keeps coming to your table and asking "how's the food?"
Stan Smith: “Wa-ter?”
It's like you're enjoying a good read and you learn that the author is a complete moron by just seeing one word.
"Your"
Thank you for taking the time to make this video and share it
Thanks for mentioning Guardians of the Galaxy. I love those movies so much, they exemplify artful use of this style of writing. Unlike the blatant, beat you over the head with it, approach we're accustomed to.
Once this happened in reverse. The Percy Jackson series is action-packed and absolutely hilarious. There are lots of jokes and references. When Fox made the movie it was an unfaithful adaptation. They removed a lot of the humor and completely changed the characters.
The blonde from the second one is showing her jumblies on OF now.
@@JDoe-gf5oz Do you mean a lookalike because i think Alexandra Daddario is doing well enough for herself now that she doesn't need to do Onlyfans
@@JDoe-gf5ozyou can see her jumblies for free on true detective
Couldn’t say because I don’t watch them
Percy Jackson is actually a great example of balancing quippy humour with sincerity.
You deserve more subs. You're pretty smart. One suggestion, and this is something even big creators do, work on your volume levels. When you cut in things like B-roll laughs it was WAY louder than your own voice track. Try and equalize them a bit
I remember when Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade hit theaters. Back then, there were a lot of “super fans” complaining that the movie was too “lighthearted and silly” (I was NOT one of them!). Last Crusade looks like the Deer Hunter compared to today’s standard action flick! I’m also a bit tired of the trope. Thanks for the commentary.
The way they rode off into the sunset at the end had me sad as a kid: "so that's the end? No more?" And yes, that was the end, and with the exception of a really good computer game _The Fate of Atlantis_ and an okay TV series for kids _The Young Indiana Jones Chronicles_ that was THE END.
We didn't need to know what happened to Indiana Jones in the 1950s or 1960s.
But we can't put anything to bed now.
And no matter how good they get it, CGI just looks terrible. Okay, I get it is necessary for the Marvel movies as they are basically semi-live action cartoons. And I get it for Terminator 2 as they only used it only for things where practical effects were impossible, but enough already.
I think this might actually be why Black Panther was such a fan favourite. He came in to the MCU at a point where this kind of writing was becoming really prevalent, to the point where even Steve Rogers was starting to make quips that were completely out of character. But T'Challa was always sincere.
Black panther has some genuinely cool ass scenes. it rejected that kind of dialogue and it worked.
Yes, Captain America kind of sailed right past character development, straight into out-of-characrer. I always hated that because he is my favorite superhero. But, the other aspect of the issue is that Tony Stark was shoved into so many Marvel Films. But not Black Panther. Maybe that had an effect on the writing as well.
@@danitho When did Cap ever act out of character?
@@vizari9570 I actually didn't find "Black Panther" that great; I think his introduction in Civil War is actually a more impressive, satisfying story for him. Despite being so short, the way he showed growth in it, the way the writers were able to give him this fantastic, believable arc in such a short time is so impressive.
(The more I think about that movie, the more impressed I am with everything they were able to do.)
@@SchulzEricT During certain point of civil war and infinity war. Almost all of endgame. But a specific example: Captain America leading grief counseling is ridiculous in and of itself, especially since he was apparently lying. But for Cap to be helping these people, meanwhile the people of the team he led for YEARS have been spiriling out of control for the past 5 years with grief and regret. And the film shows us that it didn't take much to turn them around. 7 lines of dialogue between Barton and Natasha and he stopped murdering people (which was out of character too) and one conversation to get through to Thor. Cap wasn't seen trying to get this team together. There wasn't even a line of dialogue claiming he tried. That is crazy out of character for him.
Very nice assessment. These phrases date a television show or a movie. It's like the "seriously?!" line that got old, yet continues to zombie along. Or the, "wait, what?" But I think fans are very much to blame for this interruption of emotion in movies. Where once they criticized DC for taking itself too seriously, now they criticize Marvel for making everything a joke. But fans had signaled to studios for years that "light-hearted comedy" is exactly what they want.
Perfect example of why you shouldn't just give the fans what they want. They know what they like but they don't respect the structure that it takes to let the moments they love so much, land.
Yes!!! Exactly this!! To me Barbie is a perfect movie but one thing really took me out. The part where Helen Mirren breaks the fourth wall when Barbie says she’s not pretty and feels defeated to say “Margot Robbie wasn’t the right choice to make this point.” And it’s for the exact reasons you’re saying.
Really loved how human and man-made this video felt. A few imperfect takes and some long, uncut pauses really added to the sincerity of the message, taking into account the platform it’s being delivered on. Very well articulated thoughts as well!
Oh my gosh, YES, you hit every nail on the head !!! A really great example of sincerity vs cynicism would be the Lord of the Rings movies vs the Hobbit movies. Obviously the Hobbit, as a story, is meant to be more lighthearted, but all the humor just felt very "well, that happened 🥴" which really took me out of the film. And it's not just the fact that the characters are making jokes -- there's plenty of humor in the LotR movies (and of course, all of Tolkien's written work), but it's very contained within the world and never relies on meta references; I never feel like I'm watching a movie, because it's so earnest and dedicated to its story/what it's trying to be. (For example, you don't see the Fellowship joking about taking the eagles to Mordor, but if the movies were made today, I'm sure they would.) I feel like movies these days are so scared of being made fun of/being called 'cringe' etc for committing to the bit, being genuine, and/or suspending the audience's disbelief, that they try to beat the ironic humor to the punch. lt's fine for a parody or a comedy film, but for any medium that's trying to get you immersed, it should be used sparingly, because it'll immediately take you out of it.