Audiences Hate Bad Writing, Not Strong Women
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- čas přidán 14. 07. 2023
- Hollywood - and Disney in particular - have a recent trend of propping up female heroines who just aren't that interesting of characters. They have shallow character arcs, are largely interested in self-actualization, and often lack any likeable traits. There are, however, examples of strong female characters such as Vi and Rita Vertaski from within the last decade that run contrary to this trend, and their positive acceptance is proof positive that audiences do not dislike strong women - just bad writing.
Enlist in the Grand Army of the Republic:
/ @master_samwise - Krátké a kreslené filmy
Stop watching this video already.
no
No
The CZcams Algorithm gods have spoken... they said no...
no
Nuh uh
“Write characters to tell a story not prove a point” Great line!
So true!!!
You can also probably prove that point or at least give it some light if you tell that story.
Stories have themes, that's kinda "proving a point"
I agree with this in the way it was intended tho
Story’s reveal things that are true, when we are proving a point we are trying to hard. Whether the thing is true or not, the bs meter goes off lol. Because if it’s true you don’t have to prove it. It’s self evident. It just needs to be seen.
If people really understood you, completely, as you really are, would you feel the need to hide? Story’s are meant to reveal our true selves, not to enhance our fake approval seeking ego.
@@grahamthomas9319 True. An example that comes to mind is living for today instead of lamenting yesterday, in Up. It was symbolized beautifully in Mr Fredrickson choosing to let his house go.
As a woman, it doesn’t feel empowering or inspiring. It feels patronizing and pitying. They need to stop doing this
what u mean? its not like they do much females. I mean look at star wars female leads what 10 percent and people still complain. like a lot of people call ahsoka a mary sue even though she isnt and is one of the best female characters ever
@@ladyriethegoldendelmo5441 I think you have Ashoka confused with Rey little buddy. I haven't seen anyone call Ashoka, one of the most developed Star Wars characters of all time (thx Clone Wars + Rebels,) a Mary Sue. So I'd like to see where you got that from. Aside from your ass I mean. Besides, she didn't bring up Star Wars. You did
And she isn't saying "stop using female characters." She's saying using the typical Hollywood "strong female character" archetype is harmful, and that she wants it to stop. Learn to interpret sentences in their full context. It'll get you further in life
@@minejack7773 uh mate? I am not confuse. and no I dont call ahsoka a maryu sue. type ahsoka mary sue and u see that one female (youtuber) who makes a whole channel about ahsoka being a mary sue (I'mYourAlibi)
@@minejack7773 but yea (I'mYourAlibi) is wrong about ashoka by a long shot lmao
When I watch these horrible movies about women, I always wonder what women think of this crap. Now I know.
There are scenes in movies and tv where the women acts so stupid and idiotic, I cheer for the killer to get her.
"Ya'll hate on Rey just because she's a strong woman"
Meanwhile Ahsoka, Leia and Padme are some of the most beloved and iconic characters in Star Wars history
the character has no depth. Ashoka went through growth if you are a fan of star wars you would know Ashoka didn’t become powerful over night same with leia and padme. Rey is more like an Isaiki protagonist, such a dry character only kills this beautiful story
We got to see Ashoka grow up and become a great character, she had talent but was rough around the edges when first introduced but went on to become a legend after years of work. They wanted Rey to be all of that in 1 hour with no back story other then "Surprise she got palpatine blood" 😒
@@Xenphos Exactly bro
I wouldn't say Rey in the first movie fits entirely into this category; she lives and works alone, she doesn't know what's happened to her parents, she only gradually discovers her powers and she faces terrifying situations while she's doing so, and she only finally accepts her situation in the final battle with Darth Vader jr (I forget his name). Even then she continues to believe that Luke is her destiny, rather than she being his.
After that, of course, her character becomes a cypher.
Padme?!
You millennial prequel apologists need some counseling, lol.
We have Ripley from Aliens franchise being this strong and powerful women. We don't complain about it. Why? Because the writing is so good
Was waiting for a comment about Ripley, one of the best female casts in my books😊
Yy😅y😅
I think the irony of the "sexism" card is that they are ultimately defending writers not respecting women enough to put real effort into their characters and arcs
FACTS
theres also that poorly written male characters dont seem to get as much flack as poorly written female characters. if audiences cared about writing that much 80% of marvel movies would be tanking
@@mzamnesia7190that’s not true 90% of movies are well written. Name me one movie that isn’t.
@@mzamnesia7190 I would argue that even the worst films in the first few marvel phases still had interesting main characters and usually fell victim to weak pacing and unmemorable villains.
Take the recent barbie movie for example. It was very well recieved and did good numbers at the box office despite preaching to an extent none of these movies people rag on have ever reached. It did this by being a good movie, with a script and characters that the writers actually gave a damn about.
@@whyyoumad4686 not true nearly all marvel films are shit
I like how no one hated Gamora...
Despite she being the 2nd strongest Physically and strongest In Overall Combat....
Because she was written perfectly in the guardians of the galaxy franchise..
Her and Nebula have a very interesting dynamic. Nebula is probably a stronger character than Gamora because not only did she have to overcome Thanos' indoctrination since she was a child, she had to overcome her hatred of her sister borne from Thanos' abuse. She projects all the pain she was put through onto Gamora instead of dealing with the reality that Thanos was responsible for it, something that Gamora came to realize much sooner.
Facts bro. Gamora was a great character, selfless, a badass, and (while I was a bit heartbroken), still a great character throughout with her memory loss and everything.
Well she did loose to Rocket and Star Lord their their 1st encounter. And has to rely on Star Lord when she is taken to showers.
@@roxtechsbro, tue only person in the group that wouldn't need help in the shower scene was Groot, all the other guardians would die alone in the shower
Drax was physically strongest...but he was more of a slow grappler and brawler,only needed when they need raw force...but gamora not only had strength and speed but also more fighting skills and fineness...
A better comparison scene for the bullying is Harry Potter. His mistreatment at the hands of the Dursleys is explained very quickly - they value normalcy, which Harry is decidedly not. He is bullied by his relatives and, as a result of their deception, pretty much everyone around him considers him the problem and so they mistreat him too.
Not only is the treatment given a reasoning, we later find out the reasoning is nuanced and find out even later just how much deeper it went than we were initially led to believe… to the point that there were scenes relating to the mistreatment that were actually impactful and surprising all the way until the final movie/book.
It goes even further in that it was a narrow reflection of a broader issue in the world at large. On that broader scale it was a large factor in Grindelwald’s motives which ultimately led to WW2.
What seemed like a simple thing was actually a major plot point… whereas RoP? “Please like our Mary Sue because she endured some inexplicable childish bullying”
It more abuse than bullying what they did to Harry
The problem I have with a lot of these characters is, that they are just so unlikable. They are annyoing, arogant, narcistic, all traits that you rather see in villian - because they make a character unlikeable. The writers use the traits they see in "toxic masculinity", but somehow think that a strong character has to have them in order to be strong, thereby completely sabotaging their own agenda.
InсеI, i can see why you're so mad. It's obvious that no woman have ever loved you, not even your own mother, and they never will. How sad is that?
@@KaylaJones2000 Why so mad? And fyi I am no incel. I have been in serious relationships for 7 out of the last 9 years.
Would you please explain what is wrong about my statement. The "strong female characters", that are generally seen as written badly are usually arrogant and pretentious or simply annoying. Change either of those characters gender and most feminists would say that the character portrays typical toxic masculinity.
@@KaylaJones2000 Yikes, didnt expect to read something so crazy today
"Don't make a great female character, make a great character that happens to be female"
-some wise person
it should be the same with men though
@@alejandrasanchez3022 very true.
@@alejandrasanchez3022 it seems like men characters don't usually have this problem of being male before being strong, at least in western culture
@@nicholas_obert a lot of it is due to sexism that still exists to this day, for many many decades women were seen as nothing more then trophies and objects for households. In the broad scheme of things, that's only been different for a little over 30-40 years. That's nowhere near enough time to undo the shackles of sexism, considering racism is still extremely prevalent and the civil rights act was over 50 years ago.
This doesn't excuse this bad character writing, just a reason for why some people think they have to do it like this. Men don't have the problem of "being strong and masculine" because that's how its seen, but you need to see how people react to when a man is not very masculine but still a strong character, or if a man is based around sex appeal. Women get away with "being sexy and beautiful" driven a lot more due to culture. THere's a lot of sexism that goes both ways that a lot of people don't realize is there.
@@ItsAMaelstrom If the character writing is in your words "inexcusable" we should *all* reject that as the status quo. We should not sit here and say "well, but some people need this sorta hero/story", racism and sexism have, in one form or another (even occurs in matriarchal societies) existed since things that were "not all the same" have existed. That does not mean that every single story should start off with "Once upon a time there was a minority that was historically oppressed, we shall soon learn how that with a little pluck and free super powers they can make it ok for them to be themselves". I am gonna make a call back to an old 90s show called "Buffy the Vampire Hunter"; the main character *mcguffin* and thus is fated to be a vampire slayer... and she was *awful* at it in the beginning. All of the main characters were awful at the new roles they were adjusting to because; adjusting to life *sucks* and that is all something people can identify with.
Was Buffy the ideal female character in the ideal setting to tell the ideal story? No. Was she someone who despite *mcguffin* and was now supernaturally strong and such someone who still worked her butt off learning about herself, her role, her powers, how to adjust to how those powers effect those in her life and a hundred other small things to become the person that saves the day? Yep, and despite the occasionally cringy episode men and women both liked the show, both were cheering on a mostly female main cast, sure they were learning a lot of stuff from some old British guy who had "all the answers" except he didn't... He had no idea to relate to the cast in the beginning and expected everyone to do what he said due to his job title, which did not go over too well.
There are tons of heroines/main characters who suffer and fight to be the winner or to simply be "good enough" and we are always interested in those stories, as it gives us the slight belief that if we work hard enough we can effect the world. The stories where someone just gets something amazing with no work/pain are awful no matter who the character is, it's why most people like Batman more than Superman. Both were handed privileges' by birth, both had a moment of realization that forever changed their lives, but all the one had to do is take off his glasses to be the hero. The other worked, studied, used his wealth in chaotic good pursuits in order be a, if not "hero" to become an anti-hero for the people to rally behind, yet still condemn enough for Bruce's (spoiler) life to still be really difficult.
As a girl I have always thought that those movies failed because of sexism, not in the sense that audiences didn't like it, but in the sense of not creating new characters, just female versions, not creating complex characters, just make them perfect.
It's like 'a woman has to be perfect' 'a woman is superficial ' 'a woman is not worth the effort of writing a good characters' and 'women are so dumb that this is all it takes to sell a movie'
That's what I've been thinking for a while now. All these gender swapped characters just scream lazy and patronizing. Instead of creating new and exciting female characters that tell their own story they just take already established and well loved male characters and make them female. The same thing goes for race swapped characters. Stop being lazy and write new characters that people can identify with, don't just slap a new coat of paint on an existing character.
lol
I am a woman and I agree with you. These characters are simply not sympathetic. They are plastic. Sorry for the mistakes, english is not my native language.
@@poluticon why would they stop if it works? millions of people are oblivious to your very epiphany and yet they celebrate whenever a race/gender swapped hero "is born". Personally i couldnt care less, im a man and i wanne see a good male character, because that is my perspective. If that male character is accompanied/supported by a really good female character, even better. All women surely want the same thing just from a female perspective, yet how can they celebrate over something so stupid? They should relinquish in actual new stories and female characters being born and not accept a wishy/washy gender/race swap. First of all u dont make the audience feel like "others" meddle in their universe and secondly this is a chance to create a new label / studio to generate millions by writing orignal stories with women who suffered and became strong. Im pretty sure we "guys" could have "our" witchers series not ruined, while you could have your very own story that you hold dear.
There may be something to that claim... The market mostly caters to women, because they have frankly proven to be easier to swindle, and to be the ones that do the most shopping. Perhaps this is really just them thinking that women on average will pay more, and are THAT easy to trick. It's not panning out ofc. Not only because that's not as true as they think - But more importantly because it actively pushes men away, and they peddle it in genre's that men dominate(games, action movies, medieval fantasy movies, superhero movies, etc).
Your mentions do make me think that may idd have been a big factor. The whole "pink helm, blue helm" idea.
Edge of Tomorrow is one of my favorite movies of all time, but has gone very overlooked. Thanks for giving it and it’s amazing characters the love they deserve!
Is it really overlooked? Maybe a bit underrated but haven't met anyone who found it boring or hated it. Even my close female friends (who doesn't give a F about movies) actually watched it the whole time without getting bored.
Maybe you said that because it's dated and not a lot of people are talking about it now. I do agree it deserves more attention to be used as a case study on how to make great story writing.
Maybe it’s the Groundhog Day-iness of it? I don’t know why, but I just have an aversion to stories that use that trope. I liked Edge of Tomorrow when I watched it, but I don’t think I’d watch it again for that reason.
@@Navi15 yes it's overlooked -- they even changed the title at one point to LIVE. DIE. REPEAT. to attract more people over time when it hit the video market, and it worked.
I also read the All You Need Is Kill which happens to be the Manga that Edge Of Tomorrow adapted. It was just as great as the movie
@@TheGameCapsule it was never renamed to that. They wanted to change the name but used it as a tagline instead. The original name was "All you need is kill" like the light novel, but WB insisted on removing the word "kill" from the title.
I like how the Entire Message of Mulan that men and women are different but still strong in different ways, BUT that when brought together and working with each other, relying on each others strengths thats when you can do anything.
The worst part is when they get called out for bad writing they pull the sexism card to cope for their lack of skill
Not so much lack of skill (even if it is clearly there) as thinking that pushing an agenda is an acceptable proxy for actually writing a story/character.
Yea, but the biggest problem here people do not bring up the bad writing or make legit reasons as to why the movie is horrible they only bring up the part where the lead is a female and then go off on how "feminism is ruining movies". How many times has Hollywood made Mary Sue male characters? I can name plenty and audiences never complained at the same volume. It's pathetic.
@@imposter-hero-2736 For sure there are big problems on both sides. People jumping on the occasion to voice their hate, and not being able to argue the issue rationally like this video does so well
@@imposter-hero-2736 yeah, people don't get a chance to bring up bad writing or legitimate criticism because even before any of that can be discussed, your side has already fired up the buzzword minigun; sometimes in anticipation of stuff that hasn't even been said
@@imposter-hero-2736 There shouldn't be "sides" here based on feminism or anti. The sides should be divided by, "Is this a well written, acted, directed movie/show". As shown in the video and there are countless other examples Hollywood (mostly Disney) trying to do a good thing has utterly ruined their movies through poor execution.
People don’t hate strong and independent women they hate “I AM A STRONG AND INDEPENDENT WOMAN”
NO.
Why would i hate a strong and independent women? What harm does thag cause us lol.
We hate women who belittles other just to prove that they are better.
quite right. a good writer does not TELL US that the character is such and such, they SHOW US. but that takes effort to create situations that shows us the character being whatever it is they want us to see; and preaching fanatics are as a rule in too much of a hurry to do this
@@onceamusician5408I present Princess Leia. No need for labeling her as a badass, she simply was a badass, and everybody saw it.
you could not be more right
True!!! It's same as screaming "I'm an Alpha male"
Mulan vs Mulan is an amazing study in how to do a character right vs terribly. I'm kinda glad the live action exists purely for the clear juxtaposition.
This is true for all characters no one wants a perfect flawless character.
Remember folks: the gender of the character does not matter, as long as it is good writing.
And if you don't write your character in a way that incorporates your gender, the writing is probably not going to be good. Don't fall for this dumb bullshit.
I do like the use of Toph as an example because Toph is INSANELY powerful right from the word go, easily the strongest of the Gaang outside Aang himself and I'm including Zuko in that. She still has to struggle, and when she masters metalbending, it's because she earned it. She also IS arrogant and frequently unlikeable but also fiercely loyal to her friends. I like her despite her flaws, and you're supposed to.
Characters that have to work hard to reach their goals and grow is something a lot of people from every culture, background, race, and gender can relate to.
So it’s mind blowing Disney keeps writing female characters that are just naturally super physically strong and great at fighting. Something hardly any women can relate to.
LOL this video is trying to convince everyone that incel virgins who think "wahmen bad" don't exist. They're all over the internet. That's like denying that the sky is blue.
@@TomCruz54321 the thing is you weirdos call everybody who disagrees with you about stuff like this an incel.
A man named Clifton Duncan once said;
"Audiences don't hate diverse characters. What they hate is being slammed as bigots for rejecting bad work from pretentious, unskilled activists posing as writers. If the demography of your characters becomes more important than the story, your story will probably suck."
truth fact.
especially shit like the new little mermaid, i can deal with being black cause technically thats what they shouldve been but they made the hair brown and the songs suck
Indeed. Being "woke" isn't slamming skin tone differences and genders and saying THIS IS ALL WE NEED. Generally I find myself decently woke but I don't find myself ignorant to join in on the "THEY ALL HATE THE MOVIE CAUSE THERE IS A WOMAN"
Make the diversity play a small role if not none existant role to focus on character growth and improvement. People want a story they can connect to as well as improve, and have flaws. Not a "knows how to do it all" but is blocked by someone else. Rey Skywalker suffers from that. At least Luke didn't hold a lightsaber until later. She just beat Kylo first encounter. Yes he got shot, but clearly statistically he should've killed her.
Yeah.
sounds like something a bigot would say
This video is such a breath of fresh air, it's a well-informed and good faith critique of a very real problem that exists in female character writing that doesn't just spiral into genuinely misogynistic ramblings like 90% of "anti-woke" clickbait youtubers. This is exactly the kind of content we need.
"blue eye samurai" is a great example of well written female character if anyone's interested
Brilliant show, kind of Mulan-esque in terms of main character's upbringing.
It contains a lot of the things done with the shows he mentions in this video but it actually executes them with subtlety and grace. Mizu actually struggles, she's literally been faced with violence and blood since birth, and her being bullied isn't some cliched sympathy grab.
Not to mention that even though she is quite good as a fighter she isn't perfect like many of these mary sues and has to rely on Ringo and Shiden to help her. Not because she isn't strong, but because attempting to do everything yourself in a revenge plot will only get yourself injured or killed.
Exactly what came to my mind.👌🏾
@@JohnnyRocker023 I also love how she is basically on the brink of death after every fight, it's kinda funny
I disagree. The main character has some flaws for sure, but virtually every episode had to play men down as the scum of the earth to elevate how amazing this “man’s” character was despite being a woman in disguise.
The flaws were also limited to her emotional trauma.
She would get injured but none of it mattered.
Stabbed in the ankle? No worries, just scale an icy mountain side with a dead weighted man on your shoulder and sword between your teeth?
Enormous wooden door on you with a dozen men standing on it? Easy to get out from under, no problem.
I get it’s animated, but it was completely immersion breaking.
As a child girl, one of the female character I liked the most was Elizabeth Swann from Pirates of the Caribbean. She went from an innocent girl afraid of pirates to one of the most badass pirates of the franchise. Shame to the writers for her character arc in Dead Men Tell no Tales. It felts like going backward.
Yees, she became as devious as pirates when necessary as well which was awesome
She was such an inspiration for young girls around the world! Including me back then!
She was actually never afraid of pirates, she was fascinated by them, even in the very first scene of the first Pirates movie. I get what youre saying and totally agree, i had a huge crush on her not just because shes pretty but also smart and capable. I found her role in the subsequent Pirates movie franchise to be a bit contrived though, as she had never had swordsmanship lessons but turned into a swordsman on Par with Will, arguably the best swordsman in the franchise. I thought that was a bit weak, but i didnt let it ruin the movie, just a plot hole.
The only thing I didn't like about her was how she seemingly became a skilled swordsman/fighter out of nowhere, even though she was a fairly sheltered noble woman before that. she could have practiced off screen. But there's the key, that was "off screen". Would have liked to actually see her grow in that department rather than "I can suddenly fight on equal terms with veteran pirates now, or even outright beat them."
ikr
i was really hyped to see her fight with a sword for the first time
great character overall
As a male that scene of Mulan climbing the pole with those gold medals is so inspiring and gives me chills to this day
Amen, man. Likewise when the Emporor dresses her down, then starts the honor bow at the end of the film and we see her character arc complete. I LOVED the animated Mulan. The live-action was a disgrace.
as a kid i always loved mulan and thought of her as my fav princess, because she overcame the fact she was undervalued because she was a lady, and she proved people wrong just by showing she could do what nobody else could. and eventually she opens up other characters to the fact that women aren't inherently weak, nor is physicality the most important thing to be considered "powerful". her struggles were incredibly relatable esp as a young athlete and her arc was good and realistic.
i havent seen the live action version and do not plan to, but my love for OG mulan remains strong
I thought that scene was badass showing that you can’t over come everything with brute strength but Disney wants woman to be everything and have no flaws
And Mulan is great example of "Finesse over strength", she use delicate strategies and wisdom instead of brute force, which these new "strong women" keep using.
Mulan was fun to me as a kid, but after serving in the military, in became one of my all time favorite animated Disney movies since I can relate to Mulan on a deeper level (I'm male, by the way). The MCU's Captain Marvel isn't relatable to me because she reminds me of male bullies that made my life a hell in school and the military.
It’s really not that hard to write a well-written strong female character. You just gotta do what you would do with a male character. It’s really that simple.
Great Video, so much effort put in! refreshing to see something so well thought out and planned.
It's always the sudden shift from total victimhood to total power that feels forced and doesnt make sense.
The Female Power fantasy. Sympathy and love for being a victim, to absolute power with zero effort. A narcissistic wetdream
It does when you realize the ideology behind it seeks to use victimhood as a means of power.
And with no training, they're just immediately better than everyone at everything.
And it’s so frustrating! It collapses the world that could have been, or that previous movies/books had worked so hard to build
Gotta love the mindset of these iNdEpEnDeNt and eMpOwErEd feminist clowns
I suspect a lot of the hatred for these characters is actually due to the writer's own entitlement. Blaming the audience for not liking your characters because the character is a woman is just a laughably bad excuse for the writer. A poor craftsman blames his tools. Where's my hero's journey? Where's my engaging conflict? Where's my fun character moments? Am I excited to even see this character on screen?
they are baiting controversy, its frustrating but it makes them money. im sorry but i cant take "people hate on the live action the little mermaid because the actor is black" seriously come on who do you think i am.
I'd say it's less a matter of blaming their tools, these writers have all of them, but rather blaming their clients for not liking a sub-standard product.
Also writing them as they would bad fanfiction. Not good fanfiction/well.
Bad tools, accountability. I like you’re metaphor.
your**
The Woman King
based on a true story, except it's completely reversed
I didn't even have to watch the entire video to give you a like. Just the title alone says it all. Movies these days lack the story sustenance that older movies had. Like you said, OP and sfx are the standard for every movie these days. Thank you, thank you, thank you. 👏 👏 👏 👏 👏 👏
I clearly remembered I said to myself " Black Widow is so cool, she is my favourite character now". Nowadays, Disney is shoving the idea of FEMALE characters are super strong and just to be themselves and everything will be fine. There is no character arc, they are just too strong plus all male character are dumb shxt
ifkr. she and Hawkeye gotta be one of the bravest avengers
Hermoine Granger is a good example of a well written female character IMO. She saves Harry and Ron on multiple occasions with her intelligence and sacrificial attitude. That's a strong character to me.
Not to mention those two probably would’ve flunked out of school if she didn’t constantly help them with their homework 😂😂😂
IMO she is great in the books. In the movies, she is a little boring for always being perfect all the time, specially when you compare her to the bufoon that they made out of Ron, so she could look even superior.
Let’s be honest a lot of the writing for specific characters as well as their development sucked in the hp movies. Books were good, but yea
well written character but poorly acted
SPEW
The animated Mulan is the best disney princess.
The live action Mulan is a fraud.
Live action Mulan is so confusing. They literally had the ultimate awesome female lead, but apparently she needs superpowers now???
The 2020 live action Mulan is a fraud, not the 2009 one.
@@RedCommunistDragon Yeah that one was a good film as well.
Why... is Mulan a princess? I don't think she is XD
@@eliaspeter7689 I don't either but she's considered one. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Ripley from Alien. Vasquez from Aliens. Strong female characters but in different ways and both loved by the audience.
Sarah Conner in T1 and T2.
Trinity in Matrix
Serenity
Underworld
The Fifth Element
Honestly, so well said. This is exactly how I feel. These characters are shallow and unrelatable. Give me a character with real flaws. The reason why we like any main character or hero is because of the humanness in them, not because of the superhuman powers they possess. These modern portrayals of women don't need to earn anything. It's just handed to them. That's not real life. And you're so right that the much better and more realistic message is "I'm not enough but I can still do great things." That's an actually relatable message. I'm a women and I really don't like these movies. It's not because of sexism, it's because of bad character writing.
good ol' hollywood thinking that a strong woman needs to be more like a man, instead of making a real character
EDIT: This comment was written at like 2 am in a few seconds, and I have notifs muted so I didn't see all the replies. To clear up confusion, I do mean man as specifically the self absorbed toxic masculine stereotype that is still common in media. A blending of traditional femininity and masculinity is needed for a truly good male or female character, and no gender is bound to a single set of values or way of life.
It's like they think femininity doesn't have inherent strength...
Oh wait...
True
You heard it here folks! Masculine characters are not characters! /j (This is a good take. I am just poking fun at a literal reading)
Feminism was mastered in Legally blonde almost 20 years ago and they just kinda forgot about it and started doing it all wrong
@@jorgecuevas8843 Looking for feminism from corporate America is like looking for an honest politician.
This is easily the best take on why the trend of "powerful female characters" is bad.
It's not because they're women. It's because they're _lazily-written_ women.
*Lazily-written characters*
@@Caramelwhiteout Lazily-written characters that just so happen to be women
Incompetently written characters.
@@Leptospirosi Incompetently written characters that only exist and are forced because the people behind those productions are afraid to be seen a certain way and are appealing to the modern demographic. Don't misinterpret their laziness as anything less than deceitfulness, because that's what it is.
I've seen it before as "Don't write _female_ characters, write female _characters_ "
People saying these shows get bad reviews is because they’re women and not because of bad writing NEED to watch Everything, Everywhere, All At Once.
Movie brimming with heart, soul, and emotion. About a disfuncional family, misunderstandings let to foster and grow into hatred, and the meaning of feeling comfortable or complacent with your current self.
Absolutely wonderful piece of media.
As a male I love characters like Leia, eowyn, Vi, Katness etc because they are well written it just feels like Disney and other companies just try to make instantly talented women who have to hate guys to seem strong
Would you smash vi or jinx
A perfect example comes from two characters in the same works, Ahsoka Tano and Rey. We watched Ahsoka grow from this overconfident and inexperienced padawan to a Jedi through struggles and lessons learned through her journey. Rey didn’t do shit to earn her status
Wait until you see Disney's take on Ahsoka. You'll LOVE it! /s
@@DamienDarksideyou say that like the suckquels haven't already proved what Disney does.
Hear! Hear!
@@homer6292 So all of these people only hate Rey because... What? Because "Double standard >:("... Against another female character? The white woman lost in privilege to the orange alien in the eyes of a bunch of 'greasy nerds'? But the funny thing is, people DID hate Ahsoka when she was first introduced, if I remember correctly, but then she was eventually re-written into a character people found endearing. Rey COULD eventually get a rewrite by someone who actually has talent, but as of now, she's shit.
And Luke never even 'defeated' Vader. He literally lost a fucking hand the first time he fought him and had to run away. He didn't even beat Vader in their LAST fight; he just appealed to his father, who wasn't even trying to 'kill' him. What the hell are you even referencing?
Ahsoka was hated when she was first introduced, but there are 4 episodes that focused on her that taught her the lessons she needed to become a better and more likeable character
Such as getting her light saber stolen and partnering with the old, slow jedi from the library
She learnt patience and taking time to think her actions through rather than rushing into everything and getting into trouble
Writers: *Give a woman some random op ability, make her a girl boss, write her to be unlike ably sarcastic and obsessively goal oriented, give her some quick one liner about how bad men are, make her the instigator in some halfhearted love session* Yeah this is awesome
Watchers: Who is she as a person? why is she here? why does she have this power? are there drawbacks to this power? Why is she so snarky? Does she not care about anyone? Why do her powers break all the rules of the powers we set into place previously?
Writers: Obviously it flopped because men don't want to watch a strong woman.
No we prefer men😂
Yeah like what feminist scared the writers into total submission? Who is grabbing them by the freaking balls?!?
@@jontaii152disney executives are the ones grabbing their balls, maybe some literally.
@@robin.19Cringe
@@robin.19 you just proved the writer's point, by saying that the reason why you think these movies are bad is because they have female main character.
Regardless, neither misogynist or feminist are right.
I completely agree with everything in this video. It is the very essence of why I haven't bothered with mainstream movies and television series for well over a decade now. Writers today are either no good at writing, or they are shackled by so many requirements from various stakeholders that they are trying to check off boxes more-so than working on a good story.
For entire shows, this wouldn't necessarily be a problem if we were back in the late 90s or early 00s, but because the modern streaming era has dictated that every production has to be a singular story, it means that we only get one story which will without a doubt have all these flaws. Worse still, these stories of like 10 episodes tend to have about as much story or plot development as around four episodes in the old era, as all the other time is wasted on making sure there are cliffhangers at the end of every episode and tons of side-quests and character drama. Back in those days, we might have been inundated with a lot of 40ish minute stories that were quickly and cheaply produced in a very repetitive format (think stuff like Star Trek, for example), but it was often surprising how the major complaint was that 'this should have gone on for longer' and that things weren't explored to their full extent. How is it even possible that most singular episodes of those old shows were more interesting to me than entire seasons of modern garbage?
It is because of bad writing. The whole season is not allowed to fail. Audiences might get confused if it gets too confusing. Cliffhangers are needed to keep people watching. We need to squeeze in romantic sub plots for at least one major character to turn a scifi mystery into a space drama. And since I already referenced Star Trek above, I might as well point out how they ruined the philosophical and thought-provoking aspects to just turn it into a sci-fi action movie. It is ALL of this same garbage that makes women featuring strong women terrible, but it happens in a different way. Nothing is unique and has to be the same as something else. We cannot risk doing anything unpopular with audiences, so we need to cater to the ideals that will do good in marketing blurbs.
Coincidentally, I believe that this is also why the live action adaptation of One Piece is so strong. It stayed true to its source material in all the important ways. Rather than stretching out a plot for the sake of drama, it overwhelmed viewers with developments and moments that defined the characters and the world they were in. Despite being silly and weird and 'just go with it' to the extreme, it managed to make audiences cry over simple things that were part of a clever narrative whole. It was a show where every character is an iconic trope in their own right, and yet they are utterly unique and lovable unto themselves going far beyond the stereotypes you might want to pidgeon-hole them into. Its biggest turning point for the female character was the exact opposite of the modern trend (despite being a 20+ years old story!) because this strong, female lead who betrayed person after person to accomplish her goals broke down in despair and after a lifetime of struggling on her own, finally learned to ask a friend for help. But even that was not framed as the hero rescuing a damsel, but as a display of mutual trust and reliance, since even the 'hero' is immensely flawed and will need her help in turn.
I think modern audiences may not really be exposed to good writing anymore in an era where books are antiquated and everything
Many of us have been thinking it, but you broke it down and visualized it. Thank you.
It's not just Vi, all of the women in Arcane are so well written and have such varied personalities and looks but without being forced, they are all so well thought out and important to the story they want to tell. And last but not least, they don't make the male characters stupid or useless so that they shine more, on the contrary they are on par and have interesting interactions between them.
Jayce is bland
@@diegoalfonsin7316Jaycee’s lore is lame anyway
@@diegoalfonsin7316 jayce is fine. i mean he's one of the weaker characters but shows his change in values and character. but yeah he's kinda just moving along with the story reacting the for most part.
@@diegoalfonsin7316 But Victor is cool af
They all have their goals, and their pros and cons of their personalities in reaching those goals. These bounce and blend well with each other and thus interesting interactions.
Vi lost her family twice, grew up in a place where people are regularly beaten up by the police and dragged to prison without a trial, was locked in a cell for about 6 years where she was brutally beaten by guards, had to watch her home turn into a drug infested criminal underworld and she bears a giant burden due to what happened to her sister.
Through out all of this, she didn't loose sight of who she is, stayed loyal to her loved ones and prioritized their well being over hers. As Vander said "You've got a good heart, don't ever loose it."
That's a great character right there.
Yes! I freaking love Vi
Arcane is the perfect counter example to the "audiences are bigots" line. The most primary characters in the show are women (Vi & Jinx) and the only mutually expressed love interest (RIP Sky) in the show is a homosexual relationship.
And yet the show was huge, praised almost across the board. Easily the best show I watched of 2021.
@@zigedelic3909 Jayce and Mel are a Mutually expressed hetero relationship. They even get a sex scene. Not to detract from your point, there are a lot of Strong Women in Arcane: Vi, Sevika, Ambessa (Mel's mother) are all physically strong. But it doesn't sideline the men either: Vander, Jayce, Ekko are also strong men. That's not to mention how stereotypical roles are often reversed: Cait's Mother being the working, strong parent; and her dad being what stereotypically women would be. Silco being physically weak but still, for all his crimes, a loving father (not a good one, big difference).
Note: a lot of what I said comes from a video analysis by a youtuber called Schnee. He makes great stuff.
@@mr.pickle6487 Oh shoot I totally forgot about Jayce and Mel, good catch. Agreed with the rest of your comment too
@@mr.pickle6487 Also schnee is great. I really enjoy his analysis and pacing
Fun fact: Hailee Steinfeld played Kate Bishop & was the voice actress for Vi in Arcane. She appeared in a few short films as a kid before her breakout role in True Grit, which earned her a (well-deserved) Oscar Nomination for Best Supporting Actress at 14. She’s a real one. Even in her sillier, campier productions she almost always elevates the material. Only thing she’s done that I’ve seen & really didn’t like was Dickinson.
You said what needed to be said, perfect.
And near the end when you named characters Rita and Evelyn played by Blunt I just thought for a second - yeah she nailed both and made them recognizeable for me. Similar with Ellen Ripley from Alien, Arya Stark from GoT, T-X from Terminator 3, or Martha from Pieces of woman. Not all lead characters but good ones who happened to be female and werent forced up us.
Let’s be honest, Mabel from Gravity Falls had a better character Arc than most of these live-action Disney heroines. Katara and Toph? Not even a competition, those two were incredible.
Oh no competition. Those are all time classic well written shows
Ahsoka Tano as well! Way better than that Rey SkYwAlKeR chick. I’m pretty excited for her show
It's ironic that characters from shows for little kids are better written than most modern movies or series.
Katara and Toph were two of my favorite characters all time. they were very well written, and actually had character growth throughout the story, which made them actually worth watching.
Nah, she was hateable too, but for different reasons.
Katniss Everdeen is another example of a well written female protagonist. She's talented with the bow at the start, but we learn she had to be to hunt for food to feed her family. She didn't just pick up a bow one day and oh look she hits a bullseye every time. In the arena she makes mistakes, she gets physically hurt either by her own decisions or the other children succeed in their attacks against her. She feels emotional pain constantly. When she becomes the Mockingjay we know she's just being used. She's a figurehead. Other people, including men, are just as competent or even more than her. Their talents shine through. She needs and gets their help. She doesn't do everything by herself defeating everyone invincible without a scratch.
I watched the first movie last week, for the first time in ten years or so, and legitimately thought the same exact thing.
To be completely honest, I was somewhat hesitant, because I remembered really liking the books and films as a teenager, but didn't have a vivid memory of the movie. Scarred by the garbage that is mass-produced nowadays, I thought: "I probably just liked it back then because I hadn't seen as much of this "empowering" crap, and the action was cool."
But, lo and behold, the story is really good. Katniss's abilities make complete sense, aren't overdone to a ridiculous degree (despite this even being a young adult story, where teens, regardless of gender, are often wildly OP, she actually MISSES SHOTS - incredible), she is not stupidly strong for her size or anything like that, just has a tough personality. And her quiet, somewhat stoic, stand-off-ish character and disgust regarding the system, cool as they may be, actually get her in trouble sometimes, because the games are a TV show, and being charismatic gets you sponsors.
As a guy who, by modern standards, apparently hates women - I thoroughly enjoyed rewatching this film about a compelling character... who just so happens to be a girl.
No I didnt like the hunger games movie. Its a typical movie for teens, its not even PG-13. The content is so tame compared to better movies like battle royale and so forth
@@leob4403oh man battle royal was a masterpiece, goddamn I should rewatch it again.
I'll recommend you guys to read the books
Hunger games sucked ass
"I can't carry it for you - but I can carry you"
One of my favourite lines in The Lord of the Rings, glad you added that one.
Arcane S1 was a masterpiece, even if you don't know the game. If you did play League of Legends, there are many moments in which you become that Leo DeCaprio sitting on the chair meme. Like how Vi got her gauntlets (which is awesome that she doesn't immediately have them). Or when Jayce uses his hammer, utilizing moves shown in the game for years. Or how Viktor was before he became a machine, a weak and feeble genius with the desire to live after a life of struggle and being from the Undercity. Even at the end when Mel may have possibly used the Locket of the Iron Solari, making me wonder if she knows Leona somehow and if Leona will be introduced (who is one of the most badass characters btw).
Mel's mother being a ruthless but caring mother shows the duality in her heart.
All the characters are so well written, even those who are are sacrificed in the show like Sky, the young woman with a crush on Viktor. How she loves him for his genius and mental fortitude, even though Jayce is also there. She died a tragic death. A sweet, pure, innocent young lady died trying to save her idol without hesitation. I love that show, and love the diverse cast of "real" people in it.
For me the problem begins when the writers want to create "strong female leads." When I hear that I already know it's gonna be bad. I don't want to feel like I'm watching a strong female lead. I just want to watch a character. The minute you put a label on a character you have already doomed yourself
Creating a character using a checkbox of buzzwords never ends well.
I think Emily Blunt actually said the same thing in an interview: When she gets a script and it says "Strong female lead" she just declines it.
Well, that was uhh.. pretty Blunt
@@antalwahlers3574 12:51
Well I love a strong female lead. Sarah Connor, Clarice Starling, the kill Bill bride, etc. But quite often they let a girl play an antisocial, sterotypical toxic masculine prick that's full of herself...
Mulan was my favorite Disney princess as a kid because no prince had to save her instead she saved her country, while at the same time falling in love with a man that was still stronger than her. She had to learn to fight but she was smarter than everyone. She used her gender as a way to trick her enemy's because no one suspected a women to fight, and she won! The live action remake removed all the things that made Mulan unique and amazing.
I didn't know anything about the live action remake of Mulan, I just knew it existed, until watching this video. I thought they would just copy and paste the animated one but I didn't think they'd fuck up something so simple. Story was way better before.
Plus the new one didn't have the funny dragon!
@@viveklimboo1605 That's a crime in and of itself.
@viveklimboo1605 ngl that's why I didn't watch the live action
They really took away 100% of the things that made the movie good
The best example of a strong female character comes from 1979, Ridley Scott's Alien and the sequel Aliens.
Ripley is the female protagonist and holy shit does she earn her status and earn her feat. It's an incredible movie, with incredible characters.
Amy Dunne from Gone Girl is another amazingly written female character. She embodies the persona she is meant to play.
The girl from Barbarian is also an amazingly written character.
I'm glad I watched this. You've expressed the thoughts on the matter I couldn't put into words. I've felt bad for being critical of some of these characters, thinking I'm being sexist somehow. Which, if we're being honest, is their defense sometimes for continuing to prop up these badly written characters. I always try to be mindful to be fair, but it's difficult to know where to draw the line.
Calling fans sexist or racist because they dont like your art is simply a coping mechanism by talentless hacks to protect their fragile egos.
All of it just fits their agenda
I like the example I heard between the ghost busters reboot, and the more genuine 3rd. Bith actually had primary female leads. However in the more recent one, they felt more meshed in the story. They just happened to be female.
@@derekeuchner1800 yeah i like afterlife more, because its actually fun
@@derekeuchner1800 Totally agree, the Afterlife movie was a great movie and it 'felt' like a Ghostbusters movie that just happened to have a female lead. The all female reboot was just not a good movie in my opinion, nothing against the actors as people like Kate McKinnon are great in SNL and have been in other roles, but the movie was just not great. Added to this, in the original ghostbusters Janine was a hard-ass who kept the men in line....in the reboot Helmsworth's character was an idiot.
They _could_ be those things, but then it's still necessary to consider their criticisms and their potential strengths/weaknesses.
Emily Blunt is a prime example of an actress who consistently plays a fleshed out strong female lead
I can't think of anything I've ever seen her in that I disliked her in. She's such a strong actor.
brother
Just wait until emily sharp starts her career
@@iamfreedman6880 I aint reading all that
@@iamfreedman6880There's a certain sense in your words but from my personal experience it's not exactly like that. A few of my female friends were experienced and talented in areas that you describe as male only (sports, martial arts, etc) and they didn't have any problem whatsoever. Yes, there are physical differences between male and women and it's very difficult to overcome them with sheer effort, but that doesn't mean they can't do it or that it's an offense to the men that did it. If someone wants to do something and has the skill to do it by all means. The problem with modern society is that they want role models that are exactly like them but better without understanding that a role model is the type of person that you want to be regardless of gender
Perfect narration, perfect editing and obviously, perfectly said. Master samwise, the name is fitting.
at 8:03 is very true. This is why I kinda liked the Jack Reacher series. I enjoyed the Jack Reacher series because the filmmakers provided us with backstories and explanations of why Reacher and his team were so skilled in combat. Although Jack was a fierce fighter, he often came close to disaster when working alone. However, when he worked with his team of highly trained and skilled soldiers, they were able to work together effectively, thanks to the synergy between the side characters and protagonists in the show. Moreover, the main villains in the show were able to put up a good fight against the good guys and that I liked allot becosue you never knew which good guy would get hurt or killed.
Now, the Jack Reacher series might not be the best example, but It was the most recent series I watched, and I actually like it a lot.
Toph is one of the best example of how to write a "girl boss" that is likeable and overpowered. She is funny, emotional, vulnerable, powerful and easy to root for.
I love the contrast of her introduction to the series where she destroys a bunch of "men" at there own game to only be beaten by the least manly person ie aang. Seeing how this upset her and showed the audiences although she is powerful she can still lose, and we get ad an audience get to explore her arc as a character, not as "gotcha" one off moment.
I love Toph so much.
The last airbender serie is a gem. Every child should see this serie at least once in their life.
Of course they love her. She is a secondary character and not the main character.
@@brayancanon6665 Nah man Avatar The Last Airbender has a crazy good cast of characters, and Aang is far from being a masculine chad hero.
Say they made a series to follow Toph on her escapades after the end of Aang's story. I think alot of people would wanna see that.
@@brayancanon6665 just like Vi from Arcane is a secondary character right? Cold take. You literally sat through the entire explanation of why its not the female characters people hate, its the way a lot of hollywood writers write characters that we hate and you still don't get it.
I feel like Emily Blunt is really good at picking well written female main protagonists. She did it in Edge of Tomorrow, Sicario and Quiet Place.
Same with Hailee Steinfeld. I noticed that a lot of her roles were on this list.
100% agree. She's amazing. Never seen her in a role that isn't rich in integrity. Brilliant in Sicario.
Glad that her role in Sicario was mentioned, imo she did really great job for first movie but it went underappreciated because character was specifically made to be kinda not likeable
She actually revealed her secret in an interview. If she sees a script that any point refers to her character as a "strong female empowered protagonist," she groans and throws it in the trash.
@@BlazingOwnagerthat was covered in the video lmao. Do you make a habit of commenting on videos without watching them?
Kill bill 1 and 2: great character, has lots of flaws, vulnerability, works her ass off. Love those movies.
Thank you for mentioning Arcane! I didn’t think I’d be hooked with its story alone. Jinx and Vi are one of the best written characters in a series I’ve seen in a while and I didn’t even notice right away that they’re women, let alone an animated series! It was because the writers, like most good writers in any medium, didn’t shove it to our faces that “women protagonist/antagonist = empowerment”. They were met with so much challenges and growth throughout their journey and the side characters actually played important parts and grew their development as well.
"a character arc flatter than the state of Kansas" is my new favorite line for summing up my disappointment for poorly written characters lol
Never been there, I'd say flatter than north dakota, which is basically devoid of terrain
Old phrase was also "Flatter than an ironing board" but usually that was for tits. Still applies.
"Flatter than Denmark/Netherlands" also works
so flat earth's curvature literally skips the whole state.
@@DamienDarksidemy tits are flatter than an ironing board 😔
Emily Blunt perfectly encapsulates what a female lead role should be. From a Quiet Place to Sicario, etc
Sicario. Yes, another brilliant film with her taking the lead. She really has done a lot of amazing roles. The TV series 'The English' is another one. Its almost a pulp fiction western.
Linda Halmilton in Terminator! Ripley in Aliens!
Emily Blunt has been pretty open about tossing out any script that specifies "Strong female lead" because it's a shit concept that doesn't generally lead to a good script.
she also has the best surname in the world. Hope she one day has a daughter and calls her mary jane xD
Exactly, as few lines as possible, perfect for any female lead
Not only is Emily Blunt featured in a couple of your examples, but so does Hailee Steinfeld. She voices Vi and plays Kate Bishop, and also Gwen Stacey. Which also makes sense because she is also awesome. You should see True Grit, and amazing movie she did as a teenager
"you are not enough but you still can do great things, they may not bring you glory, they may even bring you pain and suffering, but if you put the good of others before your own needs and wants, you will find true and lasting happiness"
such a great line, absurdly great line
Haile Steinfield definitely has some of the best well written female leads in her projects
( Vi , Kate , Gwen, etc)
Nobody knows who she is, what her projects are or the characters you listed off.
@@mikeawesome9212 wrong
@@mikeawesome9212 Nobody knows, because you don't know? Did you not realize that she, and two of those characters (and projects), were very heavily highlighted in this CZcams-video?
@@mikeawesome9212 nobody knows Gwen Stacy?
@@mikeawesome9212
"Nobody knows..." ❌️
" I don't know..."✔️
_"Audiences hate bad writing, not strong women."_
*NAILED IT.*
You will not find a single man who hated Ellen Ripley, or Sarah Connor, or the 2017 Wonder Woman.
Or the fucking Daenerys Mother of Dragons in GoT
Or Naru from Prey. I loved that movie so much.
@@johnnyzero8853 you got the wrong example. Naru from _Prey_ is EXACTLY the example of modern "strong female character" that is strong just because it is without good writing or personal advancement.
@@TraTranc I'm inclined to disagree. Naru's not a top notch character by any means, but it's a Predator movie, so that's to be expected. She screws up by overestimating her own hunting abilities, and her brother calls her out for that. Her mother calls her out for wanting to hunt to prove herself, rather than because the community needs food. She nearly gets mauled by a bear because she made too much noise and got too close. She ends the movie just staring blankly. It's a mixed bag really. They make it pretty clear that Naru is in no way the best fighter in some parts, but that is admittedly undermined by her getting some pretty blatant plot armor at other parts.
though some truth it depends on the audience you are writing for!, what is true of one culture is not true of another
That scene in aliens where Ripley is getting ready to go save newt is a fantastic piece of acting for weaver and she doesn’t even utter a word.
THANK YOU for so succinctly putting into words what I've been thinking about the movie industry for the last 10 years. Writers have become so incredibly lazy, so laughably inept, and it's damaging to the movie industry. It's even begun affecting the games industry negatively.
It's really sad when the directors and writers resort to "people hate strong female characters" whenever their films end up failing. That defense itself is just weak.
This serves the purpose of victimizing women greatly though. As the plot does. Almost if those movies were filmed for that purpose rather than for the purpose of being good successful movies.
Weak men come up with weak defenses.
Good writers and showrunners need no defenses.
The worst part is that people eat that excuse up.
Omg that's what I disliked most about the sequel trilogy. When the writers, and directors pulled that shit. It's like no you don't get it, you sucked when you made those movies. I would've loved Rey if she wasn't mishandled. I feel bad for Daisey because she got fucked over by them. They robbed her of a great character to push a narrative. And to top it off all they did was damage their narrative.
@@Squeekysquid I hear that she's getting a solo story to try and redeem her character. The sad thing is, if they had done everything right with the sequel trilogy they wouldn't have to try and redeem her character.
Let’s give Elizabeth Swann a shoutout too. She’s fine and not lazily written. Also adapted to her environment in a realistic way
Shout out to Keira Knightley as well, for nailing that shit flawlessly.
Shoutout to the bride.
Legit was thinking of her when I saw the title and thumbnail
That one scene in Dead Man's Chest still gets a big chuckle out of me, how she is just so done with the boys' crap and even tries to play the frail damsel to get those chucklefucks to stop fighting for one bloody minute. I can feel her frustration every time XDXDXDXDXD
I did enjoy those movies :)
"Salt" movie was also a good example... it was supposed to be played by Tom Cruise, but was then played by Angelina Jolie... it didn't matter because the character and the story was good!
Amy adams in arrival is a great example of how to write a compelling female character. She struggles and overcomes challenges, is smart and can problem solve, has real emotions and deals with death, etc. Emily blunt in sicario is great as well
Highlighting the hypocrisy of writers making their female characters abrasive, smug, and arrogant when they abhor such traits in male characters is such a great point and a perfect metric for judging the quality of a character
If your female character were gender swapped with a male character who possesses the same powers, abilities, and traits and said male character would be hated, then it's a pretty strong indication that your female character should justifiably be hated as well. I would still despise Rey is she were a male.
I despise Ridley's acting, which is god-awful. She must have got the gig on her knees; not her acting chops.
Wisdom from the legend himself.
Unless you think of it as a whole range of possibilities that are available to explore (even when some of those possibilities suck). So, male characters got to cycle through arrogant, smug, etc (eventually to land on more complex and virtuous developmental arcs), but the shallow zone is off limits to women?
This is the challenge of transitioning from a "dominant culture" (where the standard for "normal" is straight white male) to a more equitable and inclusive one: the unreasonable demand that those who have been marginalized or excluded have instantaneous mastery of the places previously reserved for the privileged class. No glitches, bumps, missteps, or failures allowed. Only total perfection from the get-go.
Ultimately, this perpetuates the status quo "norm" because it allows, "See? You suck. That's why you weren't allowed here in the first place."
Consider the millions of poorly written white male protagonists we have endured. Do you have space and patience enough to let women, people of colour, queer folk, people with disabilities make the same number of mistakes necessary to learn and grow?
Mate stop being dumb its not the negative traits the problem but that they praise these negative traits and reward it when in a women.
@@lousialb8962Wattpad exists for a reason, as does independent publishing etc. If it's for practice, go there.
I've read a lot of trashy books from new authors, some so bad I legitimately don't understand how the author put it together. But ultimately, those books are practice in a hobby or hobby-job, so aside from ignoring the author and series it's none of my business. Don't generally complain or review them, they're ultimately the works of individuals with limited time/skills.
Larger productions on the other hand have the ability to go through multiple edits and reviews, adjustments and rewrites. Storyboarding and meetings to determine characterization. If the team either do not self reflect or ignore criticism, that's on them.
Most of the worst protagonists I've read are straight (or bi), white, and male. There are a couple exceptions, but overall the above is true. Quantity and all that. Mary/Gary sues were equal for awhile in my experience, though the lower barrier to publishing has let Gary's take the lead. But queer/feminine writers have been some of the most acclaimed and influential authors for actual centuries. Don't pretend that queer/feminine authors are new at this, they're not. What they have is now a lower, more tolerant, and accessible barrier to entry. This allows for more of their 'bad' writing to enter the public sphere. If it's from an independent author, move on and ignore the author. Small team? Same applies. Hollywood productions? I personally don't care much, but at that point there's too many routes to improve your writing to have excuse.
The arts have long held more of repressed demographics, being from one is not an excuse for bad art.
Like most people I really don't care if you are white, black, asian, man, woman... if you suck as a character I don't like you.
People struggle to understand that. And jump to conclusions of hating because of a gender or skin or whatever.
equality
@@ericareaper8750 Its so dumb. You shouldn't really care about stuff like that unless its important to the story. And depending on the story it shouldn't be important any way.
Especially the anti SJW channels really need to take this into account.
Duck I wish you were the most common occurrence, but it's not, people still look first at your color then your acting skills.
Hey Master, a Brazilian channel simply STOLEN your video, your title and your thumb. The channel is called SAMMY. If you want, report it at will.
Great video. You left out Space Leia, and the wrecking of Luke's arc. Basically this can be all summed up as the writers for these women ignore the hero's journey that most successful stories tell.
For me Jyn Erso is, in so many ways, the character that Rey should've been. Conflicted, complex, full of uncertainty, and yet still strong and heroic. It's no surprise that audiences really liked Rogue One- because the female lead was a human being, not a billboard.
Jyn Erso, wow, what a woman! I just simply love her.
@@shinesparkss5193Cmon... Chirrut? The greatest scene in all star wars was his.
@@shinesparkss5193 Just watched it again. This is the singular scene that gets my eyes wet in the whole SW franchise. Knowing Chirrut had faith in the Force without being able to truly feel it, see its influence, or grasp its size, so you know that the Force basically decided to keep him unharmed for he wanted to do the right thing, is epic. Also, the music. This, for me, is the exact moment in SW history where the Force told itself: "Screw it, I won't sit by and wait for someone to restore balance, I'm gonna tip the scales a bit!" Epic as hell. Without this one single act, the whole 'Bring balance to the Force' couldn't be ever done.
"I'm with the Force and the Force is with me."
Still sad they didn't have Mara Jade be the Surprise Force User at the end of season 2, on the hunt for Luke.
Yeah just like her buildable Lego action figure😂😂😂
Rey: “people hate me because im a strong female character!”
Leia: “No”
Leia be like: 🗿
To be fair, I also hated how, in the last Trilogy, Palpatine got instantly powerful from some experiments, too. He somehow sorta lived then was on some old abandoned Sith Planet in which he became super powerful in a short amount of time, as powerful to take on the whole Galaxy with his Armada alone. No explanation on how using the Old Sith Ruins could empowered him, they... just did. 😂
Ahsoka: huh?
@@Mary-Ann_B_Mabaet To be fair, he did take on the whole galaxy with his wits, not his power itself. He grew to power as a senator and then the chancellor, which gave him authority over entire republic. His power was limited as shown in his duels with Windu, Yoda and later Anakin as Darth Vader.
@@jakubw.2779Until, suddenly, "Look I can blow up 5000 ships with force lightning trololololol".
Epic? Sure. Totally insane and un-deserved? Yup.
Remember Aśoka’s first season/episode in clone wars people hated her. Then she slowly got to earn to be a Jedi. They didn’t know how to make that character at first but they had time, patience, and ability to actually make Asoka one of the best Jedi in Star Wars.
Much of the criticism towards Ahsoka, even back then, was not about her personality. You see, prior to her introduction in the _TCW_ Pilot Movie, Anakin Skywalker was stated to have only attained the rank of Jedi Knight thirty months into the Clone Wars and six months before the Battle of Coruscant. Changing the date of Skywalker's knighthood and giving him a student that had never been alluded to prior to _The Clone Wars_ was the first of many retcons perpetrated by the show.
I always right characters without a gender when I first start out. That way, I am literally incapable of writing a “look she’s a strong woman hardy-har” nor can I right a “haha man stupid woman smart”
How do you go about deciding the character's gender once you've written their personality and traits?
As a women myself, I completely agree with this video. Recently, Disney has been making stories in the idea that all strength, power and abilities come naturally and don’t require hard work or great sacrifice- which is just total nonsense. They must think that a character is automatically likeable just because they are a strong women against the world. No, if you want me to like any character, man or woman, I need to see their struggles and hardships, and how they learn and grow off other people. -Not just having a moment of self-belief and then defeating the villain single-handedly.
Arcane really did create the blueprint for building strong characters. Both good and bad. Vi is a great example of a character that grew from tragedy during her childhood into a hero. All the steps along the path were beautifully laid out and executed. If you have avoided this show because it’s a “cartoon”, stop! Arcane has very deep characters built through tragedy and struggle. It’s not perfect in every way. But it is brimming with quality that is so hard to find in 90% of all other shows out today.
That Jedi girl had Hella struggles, we only had to watch the movie once she lived it...
But the Live Die Repeat girl di have to deal with Tom Cruise but at least she got a space suite when he running everywhere jumping on couches.
@@johnfletcher6814 Arcane was actually one of the best series I've ever seen hands down. I also recommend to anyone that loves a GREAT story to go watch it right now, fan or no fan
The fact that you had to say "As a woman" is appalling. The fact that you're a woman has nothing to do with being able to agree with something that concerns your gender. Lmao so disgustingly modern. I should say, this is not hate, I don't care, just making an observation.
@@rhexsusx4428 Ehm, it was actually quite refreshing to read a sane womans thoughts on the matter given the subject in this “woke hysteria” are “bad female writing”
But of course you had to fire off the “this is not hate. I’m simply making an observation.”
You, my friend is the target audience for she-hulk and all these “modern woke bullshit”
and original poster should pay this comment no mind hahaha
Funny thing is Hollywood nailed the formula for strong female characters decades ago. Look at Princess Leia, Ellen Ripley, Sarah Connor, etc. All strong, all feminine, and most importantly, all well-written. But we all know how much Hollywood values writers, so the likelihood of seeing characters like them in the future is slim.
Nor does it value Orginality, hence why George Lucas initially made Star Wars on his own.
Is that Hange's wall titan fight scene? AoT has it's fair share of quality characters regardless of specifics.
The people running Hollywood don't like that kind of strong women; likely because they want to stroke their egos and claim that their era created the 'strong woman' concept. Or because they're not the 'right' kind of strong that they want.
But they not perfect and the bestest ever they had flaws but todays female characters have to be flawless and better than all male characters. Alpha female beta males. Then you have writers putting themselves into the character.
I wouldn’t say they nailed it, just set the right bones. They left plenty of room for improvement and we’ve gotten far better since then. Not knocks against those characters, just pointing out how in spite of the many failures we see today, there were a great many successes on our way here too, and some of them are among the best characters ever written
thank you for putting my thoughts on a video so well haha
Its nice to hear someone say something positive about Hawkeye. Yes it had its flaws but at least kate had to be repeatedly saved by the experienced hero and wasn't automatically good, despite her skills.
Gwen Stacy from the Spider-Verse films is also another well-written female character.
I'm really happy Lord and Miller didn't try to make her some strong badass who's so tough and can handle everything. No, they made a sincere, relatable, sweet and confident character. One whom you can wholeheartedly relate to in her journey and emotional vulnerabilities because of how real of a character she feels. And I freaking appreciate it!
Here is an interesting but a bit useless fact, Vi from Arcane, Gwen Stacy from the Spider-Verse and Kate Bishop from Hawkeye was all played by Hailee Steinfeld.
@@drix012
Lol, yeah that's true. Hailee must have a really good agent.
@@liamphibiashe probably only takes on characters that make actual fucking sense because she knows that’s what she deserves. Good on her.
"confident" is a very bad way to describe Gwen stacy. She is at best outwardly confident but imo compared to most other characters in Spiderverse she is easily among the least actually confident up till the end of the second movie. Her whole journey in the second movie was about coming into her own and not just following along with thats there and easiest. But to also make the hard choices, stick by your values and do whatever it takes to help your friends.
@@liamphibia nah gwen is ass
Man, Edge of Tomorrow is such an enjoyable movie. Emily Blunt's character's OP status is logically explained AND used to further the plot all while showing her as a really skilful, knowledgable badass who's still vulnerable underneath the battle-hardened exterior. Cannot believe professional writers don’t learn from examples like that
I am not sure it could be put as an example of a good hollywood story/characterization though, since it is from a Japanese manga. It actually shows even more how there are so few examples of good female character design that you kind of need to borrow them or from the past or from other nations
Fr Edge of Tomorrow is my favorite movie. Even after she lost the thing that made her strong, she still showed how much of a badass she was
@@leonardobertuzzi3042 Edge of Tomorrow though is only really loosely based off All You Need Is Kill. The majority of the story is actually largely original to the movie.
@@StrikeNoir105Eat least Edge of Tommorow had a good ending. All You Need Is Kill's ending is bittersweet at best.
@@StrikeNoir105E i would say it's pretty close to the original other then the ending though
Captain Marvel was one of the first times I've run into this problem and I noticed it immediately because I remember thinking "Carol has no arc" very quickly after watching it. Yes, she's learns who she is, but she's not trying to figure out who she is, and returning to Earth after being away for (insert however long because I don't remember or care to look it up) and suddenly returning doesn't affect her in the slightest. Yes, finding out who she is causes her to switch sides, but there's no contemplation or lingering inner conflict about how she was kidnapped and manipulated by the Kree into being a living weapon while they tried to extract her powers and would've discarded her as soon as she was reduced to being just human (or something like that, I haven'tseen the movie since it came out and don't want to look it up). At the beginning, she's told "your reliance on your powers makes you weak and predictable," and at the end, she's told "your powers are so extreme that literal armies don't stand a chance so go nuts." She's fundamentally the same person at the end as she was at the beginning. Not only that, but she doesn't even have any distinguishing personality traits other than supposedly being impulsive, which we're more told than shown, and being snarky, which isn't a personality trait in the MCU. She's a boring, flat character that the writers expect us to like and root for because that's what they want us to do.
Also that "girl power" shot in Endgame is one of the cringiest things I've ever seen in a movie and just treating the female characters as fighters in the army would have worked better because anytime someone calls attention to the breaking of gender roles, it ultimately undermines the concept of gender equality by implying that this is an exception and not the status quo. No, I'm not a meathead, but I am a feminist (a women and men deserve the same amount of respect and opportunity and are equally valuable as people and the world needs more good strong well-written female characters of a variety of character types feminist, not a men are a plague on society reverse-sexist feminist that are actually a lot more rare and discredited in real life than the last 15 years of internet discourse would lead you to believe). It also highlights how there are like 10 female heroes in an army of literally thousands, which kinda undermines the entire point.
You took a risk when you decided to do this one and I'm glad you were rewarded it. Well done.
another thing i love about Vi in particular in Arcane, is that she doesn't always win. Even when she does, she gets her shit kicked in. she has to struggle to win, she bleeds. Same with Cait at the very end of Season 1. they don't win, and they suffer or struggle, and each have unique flaws within their personalities.
you should watch blue eyed samurai i feel you would love the female characters. so well written
Sophie in Howls moving castle always struck me as the embodiment of a strong independent woman cuz despite all the crap she put up with. She was still kind and empathetic towards others and influenced them to be better.
Yes, she's one I thought of when watching this video. Even better, she was old and unattractive, so she wasn't trying to flirt her way through the story either. Which is something else that poorly written female characters do.
Book Sophie is a damn powerhouse! Film Sophie is a squeaky dormouse - Miyazaki absolutely gutted her character (and Howl too!)
@soylentlyso3219 Guess I'll have to go back and watch the movie again. I have read the book and seen the movie, and I didn't notice that big of a difference in how Sophie was portrayed, but there was a big time gap between seeing the movie and reading the book so maybe I didn't notice.
There are many examples in Older anime where you get characters done right.
Love this movie and character. Great point.
"Create characters to tell a story, not to prove a point."
The entire video summed up perfectly.
Frozen is a good example of a Disney movie where they got it right. Their main characters struggled and grew, and people generally liked the movie as a result of it. Sadly they haven't been able to walk down that formula and their live action films.
What I hate is how many writers think a strong female character means they need to have very masculine traits. That’s why I love Legally Blonde, Elle Woods is such a well written, strong character that is very girly, but also incredibly driven, and smart.
cause they have the brains of a child and don't realize how paradoxical it is to boost female chars above men by making them have male traits lol. They are actually telling us that male traits are best and the only way to be better is to have those traits.
This called 'machism'. It's all about envy for toxic masculine traits such as being overly aggressive, brutish, ordering everyone around and so on. It's basically a giant complex for the demon inside their own heads.
@@Pj-fm7oeding ding ding.
I've been saying that too. These people HATE females, which is why they constantly make females men because they are ones who see females as interior and males as superior.
They are taking away what makes females strong and seeing it as a negative. Seeing what the men do and seeing it as superior.
What they fail to understand is that males and females are complimentary opposites. What males lack, females have in spades. What females lack males have in spades. We are meant to compliment each other.
Hollywood and its ilk HATE FEMALES.
Well, I don't blame writers for coming up with strong female characters as physically imposing strong, becouse it's such useless definition, strong character be it female or male, is undefined so it could mean anything. Compeling character or complex character could be better, need more time to thing about this, but everybody who says strong character needs so be gently reminded that that is not a thing everybody understands the same
@@rimvydasradzevicius7994 my interpretation of strong female character was literally a strong female character.
I love how Disney nonchalantly blames its audience for its failures. “Write characters to tell a story not prove a point” Great line!.
Why did you steal the "I love how Disney nonchalantly blames its audience for its failures." comment that was posted 13 days ago that is above you with 24 replies?
@@kevincola3184it gets worse, this comment is that one you mentioned combined with another stolen comment
@@JNSStudios2 Yeah and although he does acknowledge that someone else said the other thing, it's still really pathetic that people directly parrot someone else's comments as being their original thoughts, lmfao.
This dude must need daily affirmation from receiving likes from random people on CZcams, lol.
Meanwhile Disney made Kim possible and everyone loved her...
That might be an appropriate line in this context, but it's worth noting that that's not true in some absolute sense. Stories that are written to prove a point can still work. It just takes more effort and skill. I think the more accurate statement would be "Proving a point can't be at the expense of the characters or the story as a whole."
This is such a common sense straight forward point. So much so that it can't not already be known by the powers that be in Hollywood, so then arises a new question...Why is it that they are aware of this criticism and still persist in their ways? What is driving them to do such an absurd thing?
"Are you kidding? I dont think the writers of She-Hulk would understand how men would typically act to a 7'+ tall assertive woman. They'd utterly simp for her and beg her to step on me."
A character I don't see mentioned enough in this train of thought is Elizabeth Swann from Pirate of the Caribbean. She's courageous and has some team leader spirit, but doesn't know how to hone that, isn't fully physically experienced yet, and is somewhat bound by the expectations and norms for someone raised in English nobility. The cracks start to show at the start of Dead Man's chest, and by the movie's end she's full-blown pirate the moment she leaves Jack for dead with only a sliver of remorse. By continuing to prove herself physically in combat, she eventually comes into her own as the Pirate Queen in At the World's End's finale.
She’s great. Goes from basically property to being the Pirate King and declaring war on what used to be her own people.
true
Very good one indeed.
And I love that despite being able to handle a sword well enough, she never actually won any sword duels with any of the important characters and got absolutely floored by Davy Jones. But most important of all, what makes Elizabeth Swann such an interesting character is the fact that she's human. She has flaws, weakness but also strength and she isn't afraid to show that vulnerability with her relationship with Will Turner. If At World's End were made in the modern day, they would strip all of that away from her and turn her into a one-dimensional, badass do all good all Pirate King who went against the odd to show these misogynistic men that a woman pirate can do anything without the help of another man
Actually very good point there. The first 3 films were amazing.
I asked a comic writer at a convention panel years ago what his advice would be for creating strong and compelling female protagonists. He said:
"Well, it's a two-step process. Step one, you think about the character. You decide where they're from, where they want to go in life, what their goals and ambitions are. You think about their strengths and weaknesses, how their experiences thus far have shaped them, and how the story might or might not shape them going forward. Then comes step two: after you've done that, you make them female."
Probably the best writing advice I've ever received.
Received similar advice when it comes to creating characters for graphic illustrations.
How do you make a interesting character? BACKSTORY.
Even if it's a 2D drawing... Why does that scar exist? Why does that trinket exist? Why do they choose those clothes? Why that expression? Why that pose? Who were there parents, what did they look like to influence their appearance?
Create a solid backstory, and the character draws itself...
The sex of the character does still play a huge role in how they're perceived in our world and the world they belong to.
For instance a brutish masculine male and a brutish masculine female. Does the latter struggle with the value of feminity in their world?
This is certainly one way of going about it, but you're going to end up with a lot of male authors taking this advice and writing female characters that are female as an afterthought. Sure, that beats the hell out of whatever the writers of these movies were doing, but it doesn't result in as deep and relatable a character as you would get if you actually explored what it means to be a woman in those stories without shying away from things that the male author doesn't have experience with or just turning her into a "girlboss" with no real characteristics.
Its that first step that current writers seem to ignore.
Hollywood needs to hear that
Dang that's some good advice
Loved kate bishop simply because she acknowledged hawkeye. Imagine seeing a super human time traveler with an indestructible shield, a literal god, A giant behemoth and say “The guy with the bow and arrow is cooler”
He is in my eyes and seeng Kate basically protégé and eventually equal him was really cool to watch since we see her struggle with trick arrows and CQB at the start, then at the end she grabs an arrow from hawkeye’s quiver smoothly and just as smoothly takes out a van coming right at them.