The charge damage is pretty simple to explain and applies to all centigors vs infantry. They have a similar mass to all the empire knight type units (950 compared to 1k) but they have a much higher charge speed (130 vs 108), fun fact, this is the highest cavalry charge speed of the game higher than hellstriders (120) or wildriders (113). Since the charge collision damage being all about a multiplier that takes speed and mass as parameters it explains why they hurt infantry so hard. Then you add perfect vigour from the "rowdy" passive making it so they don"t lose weapon damage nor speed (so collision damage) and you pretty much have the perfect low cost shock cavalry as far as damage output is concerned. Centigors of tzeench just bring it to the next level with 800 of points of barrier and arcane charge makes that perfect vigour cavalry actually see its damage output increase as the game goes on. As for nerfs they could decrease the mass to let's say 700 (hellstriders are 650 for comparison). The rowdy trait could be looked at too as it deactivate only when you waver it's basically perfect vigour, instead it could deactivate at 50% leadership like frenzy.
I have always been wondering if speed played a part in the charge damage, especially when looking at Bretonnia's unique charge formation buff where it adds a lot of speed related buffs. Thank you for confirming my suspicions.
Also, CoT have longer reaching weapons, which means when they pile in, more of them can hit. Compare them to sword cav where only the front line can fight. And heavy lance cav tend to be slower & bulkier so slower attacks + less models piling in. It's a perfect storm of high damage potential, good endurance, and amazing animations.
He mentioned everything, but yes, the animations and animation speed tend to be the most impactful invisible stat, as speed/mass can be seen/assumed. But some units tick damage faster or slower than the animation, so those hidden stats are pretty important. I remember the new Rot Knights being insane bc how fast their animations are. Idk if they got nerfed already, but they had the DPS to bully way more expensive and complex armies than their cost.
Maybe give the steam tank a "construct" like trait, thus rendering it unable to be healed. Steam tanks always get their crazy value when heal-capped. Also dwarf rum could be made conditional, like getting the full effect while unit has more than 50% hp.
Always thought this. Ridiculous that a Steam tank can get healed by any heal caster whereas other factions need to bring quite niche characters to heal theirs, i.e. chaos dwarfs and tomb kings
This makes so much sense lol. Healing magic shouldn't do anything to a tank. Engineer heroes should be the only ones with an ability to heal the steam tank.
Nah singleplayer needs MP to be even further unhinged when talking about Kislev and getting By our Blood reworked instead. That's when everyone wins. Hopefully before the roster is gutted and becomes even more boring.
If you take that down, Kislev is even worse on Campaign. Can't do it. Oh, wait, how about different data tables for MP/SP? What, is it even POSSIBLE!??!?
BoB is kinda not even an upside in campaign tho. I really like the suggestion of turning it into an activatable map wide unbreakable army ability similar to waaagh (but maybe only with 1 charge and no need to charge up, could even add a tech that gives a 2nd charge in campaign)
^the two people above me are A terrible at making their point and B from what I can tell, don't have a very good point. If kislev needs to be OP in battle to make their campaign fun than the issue is, THEIR CAMPAIGN SUCKS. Brain dead replies.
@@the13thwarrior8yeah people who don't play mp think this is a good idea. and it's just not. a unit is a unit and players should he able to expect that it's the same unit. Making things unlockable via tech gives you more reason to play a campaign. y'all also can't get your head around the fact that balance is essential for both multiplayer AND campaign to be fun. LOTW is the best example of someone who drones on about balance being pointless, and he contradicts himself massivelly when CA fixes the unbalanced difficulty cheats and then he praises them by saying "yeah alot more stuff is viable now." yeah smart one that's what balance does for a game 😂
I disagree. They should actually buff other slayer pirates, the regular ones are way too underpowered, and THEN you give them a price increase accordingly
My biggest gripe with the Stank is the inability for some units to hit it while moving. Horse or Cold one mounted SEs will fail to swing even when faster cause of some weird hitbox issue. Makes it so there are very few options to deal with it. If that was fixed I imagine it would be manageable for more factions (with the lord on stank getting a cost increase.)
Don't even know if this is a hit box issue as much as a TWW issue, but maybe it's been fixed with other units before? What I mean is, I've had elf dragons in tww2 just stroll out of four Cold One Knight surround without taking any damage. As long as it was moving and jostling, the damn knights just never swung at em. In a more universal example, chasing down shattered units in campaign is like pulling teeth because no one seems capable of swinging while they're chasing unless you've got some kind of knockdown charge animation
@@blugger They fixed some of the issues with pursuit behavior a few patches back but agree its still janky trying to hit single entities. The tank is legit busted cause its hitbox doesn't line up to where its attacked when its moving. It would be great if they fixed the universal bug of units just pushing into each other but not attacking at all.
I think that by our blood should be kind of like martial prowess and martial mastery of the high elves. Not the HP thing but that high tier units have a better version of the passive. I think that would also encourage picking units like tzar guard instead of more armored kossar spam.
The Slayer pirate ror would be fine if they tied the dwarf rum abilities potency to their current model count or hitpoints "Ability potency decreases as unit models die/when below 50% hitpoints" Suddenly you've got a unit with a cool buff that can be focused down to reduce potency and loses value as the match progresses.
I love the format you've chosen for the video. The way you're showing off the units is so much more interesting than watching their idle animations or looking at their unit cards
1:08 Big factor is their AP ratio is insanely high and their CB inherits that. It's about 80% whereas a unit like Skullcrushers is at only 70% so the low WS goes farther than one would expect. I don't think there's any bug in how they pile in, the math checks out for the number of attacks typical for 60 entity cavalry, but with 80% AP their charges produce a guaranteed 63 damage per attacker. A good nerf is -3 AP and +3 base damage which gets them to the 70% AP ratio of other AP cav. It lowers the guaranteed damage from ~63 to ~55 which trims a bit of their excess damage. They do have an unusually fast charge speed which gives them more impact damage than most cavalry have into infantry so that's another thing that might be considered. All centigors probably need +50 gold as well, they're really good. As a general note Chaos Knights aren't a great comparison because they're bugged currently and do less damage on the charge than their stats should produce by ~20%. It's a big reason lance knights feel so bad. Steamtanks are broken in a lot of ways. They do way more damage than their WS should allow into all targets, their missile in melee is extremely powerful, their hitbox is desynced from their visuals which causes some jank in melee, there are a lot of things that might need to be tweaked but hard to tell given a variety of things are buggy.
Good analysis and suggestions re: Centigors of Tzeentch. As for the Steam Tank, it can't even be fought. There are units that can beat it in melee, but that doesn't matter since it can just opt out of fights indefinitely. Outside of extreme gunpowder barrages or specialized setups like double Bone Giant, the Steam Tank just gets dismissed as un-interceptable and left to be swarmed after army losses hit, as if you're fighting pre-nerf campaign Vlad or Malus Darkblade but in multiplayer. That's not a reasonable design.
When something does too much damage on the charge, it probably has something to do with collison damage. Either their mass or speed is too high. Perfect vigor is also key for Centigors as exhaustion absolutely tanks charge damage due to the stats lost. Charge speed being the main one. Grail knights also enjoy this, but are way more expensive.
Thunderbarge change imo should be to replace the grudgerakers on it with thunderers. Steam tank and land ship should have the construct trait, and then give engineers a repair ability so you can still heal it some, but need to invest more into doing it rather than just having a single magic caster do it all.
Yes. Not every wizard is Gelt so they can heal metal. Either give it construct, or remove the unbreakable, emphasizing its controlled by people who can be healed inside the tank or somehow life magic splashes out the fires within as it gets damaged... cant have the best of both worlds. I also love how all people agree Thunderbarge's biggest issue was dishing out a ton of dmg quickly. But then CA nerfs EVERYTHING BUT THAT aspect of the unit, and there is some collective brainwashing going around that the Barge is fine now. It does the exact same thing it did on launch. Just slightly easier to focus down... if you have something to do it with in the first place. And oh wow it doesnt have infinite ammo anymore, but it doesnt need to when it still does 5k value in less than 5 minutes.
I was really hoping to see Valkia on this list. She's an obvious autopick in every matchup. Especially that she's not only a AL & AP duelist, but also has an amazing item that pretty much gives you 3 overcasted pendulums from the Lore of Valkia
Unpopular opinion here about the dwarfs, while I agree that the steam copters need a gold increase, I would be wary about changing much else, you have to remember 2 things, 1st that is the equivalent of dwarf cavalry, the only unit that allows the dwarfs to skirmish effectively, so losing shooting while moving will only send them back into the never picked unit pile like where they used to be, exactly the same issue with the bolt throwes getting nerfs, they would go straight back to "why take them over cannons" if they become the same price, and the 2nd why is it fine to call copters over powered for getting high value even with minimum player input or countering, but all other factions that have access to magic lores that have spells that can oneshot your battle line is okay ? Seems pretty unfair particularly when the dwarfs don't have magic but their thing to re place it, e.i very strong warmachines get called out when they are finally useable.
the balance between cool and strong units and having every roster be exactly equal is tough I guess. hope you and other top players keep giving feedback like this!
Centigors in general do a lot more damage on charge than their statline suggests due to disproportionally large charge speed. Usually cavalry units get about 20 more speed on charge, centigors get 46. If their charge speed was tuned down from 130 to around 105 I think they'd be more reasonable. Steam tanks need to have minimum firing range for their main cannon, something like 20 range so that engaging them in melee is actually beneficial. And healing from lore of life definitely shouldn't be working on them. Main issue with dwarven bolt throwers is that their stats weren't adjusted at all with the model count buff. Most artillery units have around 4500 health, the bolt thrower has 8500. Halve the health per model and possibly tune down their AP ratio so that they don't outperform cannons so heavily. Gyrocopters I'm a bit unsure of. I feel like they are just way too hard to kill and get value too easily. Maybe something like less health per model so that skirmishers trade better against them and steam guns losing most of their damage, but gaining bonus vs large on shots so that they have to specifically target cavalry or large SE's to get value. Dragonslayer just needs a cost increase, nothing more to it. Long Drong Slayer Pirates need the debuff to work more conditionally, like it only being active if the unit has over 50% health. The effect definitely shouldn't persist until you kill the last model.
Interesting idea for balancing the steam tank: IRL steam engines (if they aren't built with a condenser for the circulating steam to recondense back into water) lose power after prolonged operation due to the boiler running low on water. Perhaps CA can give steam tanks an ability that adds a progressive speed and/or speed/mass debuff that scales with the tank's vigor level. Steam tanks could still do their thing early in the battle, but having them dive in later in a fight would be more of a risk. Encourages using them with a Blitzkrieg playstyle in mind.
That sounds very good actually, having vigour for steam units would be cool. Though for that the game would have to acknowledge how absurd steam vehicles are lmao
Rules like that were on the tabletop but they won't be here because they're not "fun, fair, and balanced." Just like lethal miscasts, spontaneous action traits, war machine mishaps, you get it.
That makes a TON of sense!! And to elaborate, I could see myself holding the Stank in reserve and only bringing it out once my enemy has been fighting for a few minutes already so we can have a 'vigor' advantage on the Stank.
@@johndane9754 Part of the reason is that TT was designed for single battles whereas the majority of WH3 players appear to be campaign players that wouldn't like their unit blowing up randomly and being permanently dead. If dead models on TT were actually destroyed then TT players wouldn't have liked those random mishap rules either.
@@Monochromatic_Spider The point is anything that interferes with the ocd levels of unit micro managing control is automatically written off as bad by communittee concensus. It why there are no weather effects, barely any environmental effects with the one's that are there just as consequential. No day/night effect, no directional sun effect, no long grass, mud, sand, tactical rocks, heights, cold, heat. Unit unreliability and unpredictability from units that are said to be just as such were small parts of used to be a more dynamic system. Nowadays there's hardly any of the battlefield dynamism that used to be in this series. WHat's here are pretty splashes in a pond.
My fixes: Centigors of Tzeench: leadership decrease & replace their AP with Anti-large. They'll still be effective vs cav and as a sweeper unit, but they won't be able to slaughter infantry with the same effectiveness. Also it would make them less effective diving backlines forcing greater unit diversity. Tzeench has always been more halberd anti-large than great weapon AP anyways. Steam Tank: Can't be healed by life magic. Give the Master Engineer hero a necrotect-like item/ability for healing mechanical units (Landship, Steamtank, mechanical horses). This heal would be less powerful than Jade magic (which is OP AF) & would force the Empire to pay more for an extra hero if they want to heal Steam Tank. It also might encourage non-Jade wizard builds, which you never see with Empire anymore. Bolt Throwers: Decrease damage and increase bonus vs large. This would make them more of an anti-large specialist. It would force the Dowi to think more about what arty to bring, and would allow them to still have a cheaper arty option. Gyros: No fire while moving and a minor speed reduction. Let other flying units actually catch them. They shouldn't be self-sufficient & ought to rely on other dowi ranged units for cover. Dragon Slayers: cost increase.
By Our Blood was always obnoxious, also in SP, both to play against and even with as it increases the risk of a unit being completely wiped unless you go sweaty micro in most SP battles. But if Kislev 'requires' it, why not tier it like the Elf stuff so that the low level units have a 10 sec duration version or smth, and let Tzar and Ice Guard keep the 20-25s one. I dont MP a lot, but it feels like the main issue is BOB on swarms of lowtier inf
Throwing axe units in general seem pretty overpowered and universally brought to every single match-up. It's at the point where you never see Norscan Horsemasters because the throwing axes are both cheaper and better. I'd love seeing them all nerfed in exchange for buffs elsewhere on their respective rosters. Shake it up a little.
@@emultra759 range nerf and cost increase probably. Maybe also a weapon strength nerf for melee and missiles. For Norsca specifically I'd look into giving the Horsemasters a bonus versus large to give them a niche that the throwing axes can't overshadow
@@kubka4 Gnoblar trappers have 70 range. Dwarfs with blasting charges have 55. I don't think 60 range is unreasonable for axes. They're easily caught, yeah, but at the moment they're basically Dark Riders with repeater crossbows, except they have shields and better melee stats.
It's great that you make videos like this for awareness sake. Please consider making videos about units that should be buffed as well, like the K'daai Destroyer.
Another mechanic that really freaks me out is the silence aura of Kharanak and the Golden Knight. It makes so many fun and interesting builds unplayable and shifts the meta even more in the direction of flying caster lords we see fuckin everywhere already anyway… and brw who on earth thought anti-magic auras should block non-magic abilities as well? It is dumb. Just dumb. From a lore perspective as much as from a balance and variety perspective. If you wanna nerf magic, just nerf fuckin magic, especially life and death lore. But this silence aura bs is just bs.
Centigors need to be nerfed, no question. Whenever a unit is a "must pick" with every faction that has it (aka chaos furies), it's a problem. Good video!
Speaking of seeing Centigors of TZ on screen with Grail Knights... either nerf Grail Knights, or buff every single tier4-5 non-human cavalry to their level or just about. Its just wierd how Bret knights are lore accurate, whilst none of the other heavy hitters like Juggernauts are. Cold Ones for both lizards and dark elves, demonic cavalry of all flavors, necropolis knights (at least the halberd variant), Blood Knights, High elven cav sans Fireborn, theyre all pitiful compared to Bretonnia, Empire and Kislev cavalry.
@@Grivehn I was under the impression that Grail Knights where the best knights in the setting, Any that can compare are naturally weak to the aura that Grail knights have, ie demonic and undead.
@@Grivehnbret cav is good because their infantry, archery and artillery are sub par. And grail knights just got nerfed last patch, it was the only change to bretonnia.
It crazy that even in the dwarf campaign that the fire gyrocopter is a higher tier than the ap one. Its just worse. If you want a fire unit that debuffs you just use the fire cannon or the iron drakes because they do way more damage while also debuffing.
You might not read this but I hope you do make a Kislev video. I don't play tournaments but I always find it interesting when I see perspectives that are outside of my experience with a game i play. As an aside I'm a DBD player and none of their tournaments are played with unlimited rulesets, they have tiers which determine what you are allowed to bring into a match based off who you are playing against. Have you guys ever tried something like that in a tournament? Sorry, like I said I'm not in the tournament scene but from what I have seen you guys look to CA for balancing which seems very odd to me and I'm curious why that is the case.
Gyros need more nerfs than move and shoot. They can turn off fire at will and fly directly into a unit of handguns shooting at them and lose no models on the first volley, and instant kill the handguns with bombs before another volley goes off. Removing only move and shoot would not fix how cancerous this unit is.
Re: the Slayer Pirate RoR, adding a condition that the unit must be above a certain percentage of HP for it to apply would fix it being a perma-debuff until wiped.
I would argue maybe make Arcane Charge a temporary buff instead of a permanent one. That way you're still encourage to use spells with Tzeentch Beastmen but they don't become objectively better than the normal counterpart as the game goes on
The dawi are only 6th in win%. With all those nerfs would the even be okay anymore? I mean their win percentage is just propped up by those few units imo.
Steam Tank: It should not be healable by regular healing magic unless it loses its unbreakable status. It might not be a construct in the Tomb Kings sense, but why is it unbreakable? It's still driven by a human. Even the Rogue Idol lost its unbreakable status, and that's a rock monster. Also, make the steam tank lose vigor faster when ramming units in melee. Long Drong: Make the -10 MA debuff aura scale negatively with remaining unit models as an incentive to attack the unit. -10% effect per 10% models lost, e.g. -5 MA at 50% models, would be a good starting point for testing. It'd still be powerful but more reasonable. Steam gyrocopters: No attack while moving, as mentioned. That should be reserved for units with more modest shooting, like Hawk (Tuah?) Riders. Also lose either some of the armor or the 105 speed. The only air units that out-speed copters are a few SE's like Great Moon Bird, Arcane Phoenix, Feral Wyvern or whatever, and those are not effective against that model count. By Our Blood: I think a big duration nerf would rob Kislev of a lot of its identity. How about this: By Our Blood works like currently but also lowers damage output by a lot, say 50%. The idea with BOB shouldn't be for every last Kislevite to facetank and cause a bunch of attrition damage, but to buy time for peeling, repositioning etc. This way you still get that added "wasteland hardiness" in the face of overwhelming odds; it just cant be used to make every Kislev unit uptrade unfairly.
I would add Chaos furies to the list, they're obnoxious to play against and too easy to use. No idea for land battle, but in dom you can just spam them and have constant furies flooding the battlefield. being a demon unit, they disintegrate which adds them back into your pool quicker than units that route as well. disclaimer - i have no idea how to change them tho, dont want them to be pathetic like they used to be, but dont want them to be a "always take 3-4 in every army" unit
I like the directional shielding on the steam tank, but agree they are way too strong. Why not double down on it though? Make the steam tanks take MORE damage if shot at from behind. Like a +25% modifier or something. Should make for more interesting gameplay and fits well with the models which have the huge boilers sticking out the back.
None of these units need to be nerfed just because a small group of people participate in tournaments. You guys are not the only players who play the game. Get good.
For the steam gyros you could always add something fun to nerf them, the more ammo the use the less damage and speed they have? Or have fatigue effect weapon strength. To show how they are using up their steam.
Also for Kislev there could be 2 tiers of BOB, a lesser one for trash units which has a conditional activation, like being in leadership aura or encouragement. And the standard version for better units. So the drafted peasants will only stand and fight with better allies nearby, not as a standard.
Good list! I think +100g on dragon slayer is more than enough nerf if you want the unit viable still; but the daemon slayer also needs +100g. Meanwhile fiends might have needed an honorable mention. Finally all centigors have too much damage right now not just tzeentigors. They all got the same stealth bug fix buff a few patches ago and all need nerfs.
Playing Tamurkhan and Boris with by our blood bears and sleds was insane early on. I could not protect my Chaos Dwarf guns to save my life. I think that skill would tilt me hard in MP
I feel like a simple fix to the Steam Tanks would be to make them unhealable with Regrowth, Earthblood, etc. It never made much sense why a magical healer can heal a metal machine.
It wouldn't be the easiest fix, but I like the flavor of Long Drong's Dwarf Rum having intensity based on remaining health or models. Being surrounded by full health drunk dwarves still gives -10 MA but proportionally lower as they take damage. An HP cutoff is reasonable but they take damage pretty quickly so I think it still needs to be noticeable and useful when the unit is pretty healthy.
I think nerfing by cost is not the right way. It has 0 effect on campaign, while balance issues are present in campaign. Balance power by balancing power.
This is what happens when you make a game with this much stuff in it to balance and then try to cater to both MP and SP players with the same stat sheets… just can’t work. Shoulda always had seperate stats for both or something.
Creative assembly unable to properly balance their game? Color me shocked! Shocked i say! And by shocked i mean, not shocked at all as this is par for the course for the creatively bankrupt assembly. You players deserve a better class of developers, and deserve a better game.
Personally.i think multiplayer has had more focus than it deserves based on the playerbase. It's about time they switch over to SP content where the actual gameplay numbers are.
For Kislev nerf the Meleeattack of the Elemtal Incarnate. They gave him BvI instead of BvLarge so it doesnt dominate other SEs, which is cute when it has 62 MA!!! Nerf that and give it Frenzy, its a wild Beast Avatar.
Steam stuff should have ridiculously slow turning rate and deacceleration. You might be able to steam power it to a decent speed, but turning them would be almost impossible.
Gyrocopters should have their missile attributes adjusted so the projectile is way less accurate. Double the calibration area, lower the projectile velocity of the steam cannon, and enable high air resistance for the projectile
So looking at the Centigors of Tzeentch in the DB tables (basically the game files), they share the same stats, animations, and battle entity as the normal Centigors GW. They do have different melee weapons, but all of the stats there are exactly the same besides an audio difference and the magical attacks modifier. So that means if there's anything that's causing an over-performance for their unit, it would have to be either Arcane Charge, their Barrier, or both. It may be a case of the extra damage + the extra 800 HP gives them just the push they need to really shine as a unit. Or maybe Arcane Charge is bugged somehow and giving way more weapon strength than it should. Not sure.
I think the Dwarf Rum ability should be a scaling ability that lowers depending on the number of entities left, kind of like a reverse of the abilities that build up from zero
Kislev boyar blood mechanic drives me up a wall, the centigors need a look for sure, i often auto concede when i see dwarf players truly unfun faction to verse rn
I know i will get a lot of hate but idc and i will still say what i think. I don't even like to play multiplayer myself but i followed multiplayer just for fun for years: but here is the problem. Multiplayer community needs to stop asking for nerfs every time a unit is made viable in single player. It is clearly evident that people don't play VH/Leg campaign with dwafs a lot, otherwise they would know the amount of crap it's thrown at you at the start of the campaign. Especially skaven are dealt mostly thanks to gyros, and people keeos asking for nerfs. The By our Blood one is utterly pathetic: kislev is meant to have that mechanic and based as well on the amount of enemies and crap you get thrown at in their campaigns. Ranting on kislev that is a mediocre faction as other stated, is utterly unconcievable. I will nerver forget the nerf asked by MP to ironblasters. A unit that needed a massive amount of turns and fatigue to reach to finally have something to help a underwhelming faction as the ogres, got nerfed into a pile of crap just because in mp was too strong. Just make house rules and stop asking nerfs every time a dlc drops, because that is ridiculous. I think i am not the only one with this opinion, but it's very simple: i want to be rewarded for the amount of work i have to put in into my high difficulty campaign with extremely strong units. I don't want to fight black orcs with miners because MP community can't handle T5 units. Give me all the hate you want, this will be my opinion nontheless. Have a nice day.
None of this is related to singleplayer, this is a multiplayer channel and therefore, only focuses on multiplayer. CA is aware of that whenever Turin makes these suggestions / gives his opinion. Campaign youtubers work in similar ways.
Kislev passive is brainless, it should be a reverse Frenzy, kinda like what the Sisters of Slaughter have IIRC, where if they are losing a fight they get defensive buffs. Some MD and LD when losing a fight.
Why does it matter? At the end of day 1- everything is broken in campaign anyway 2- you're just as likely to encounter the AI fielding OP stuff as you are to use it yourself 3- these 5% are also some of the most dedicated and visible promoters of the game online. Listening to what they have to say is only fair.
@@therandomheretek5403 1. No 2. No you're not, the AI isn't smart enough to field 19 Shades with 205 range 3. They should be listened to, that isnt what he is saying. He is saying they shouldnt dictate balance changes, ie have primary influence
@@therandomheretek5403 Some of us play video games for fun. Try treating it as a hobby rather than an obsession and dos omething productive with your life, for once. If you want to crunch numbers and 'balance' things, join the stock brokers.
Who else is going to dictate the balance changes? The creators CLEARLY AND OBVIOUSLY do not do extensive balance testing. If you think they do look at gorgers on launch, the thunderbarge on launch, grom the paunch on launch. Who else is at a better position to dictate balance than a person who's entire job is watching and casting videos of the multitudes of interactions between units in the game? CA should be paying Turin for what he's done for the game. He single handedly carries multiplayer, and if you think they don't use what he says logically to determine their balance you are delusional boss
I think the ability to move and shoot should stay but increase their cost by a lot. Its cooler to have them move and shoot. More lore friendly :) Just increase the cost or lower the damage
Just add some buffs to those nerfed units in the campaign tech tree, boom problem solved. Eg if you tier out By Our Blood to be 10s for low tier units and 20 for higher ones, have an early campaign tech that brings the low one up to 20 and you're done.
Agree with everything here. Nerfs and buffs should be pretty simple to decode apon surely. Any over performing auto pick unit in top tier factions should be nerfed (big or small nerf) and any units that are never seen in lower tier factions should be buffed. The odd unused unit in top tier factions may need buffs too and same at the bottom end for nerfs. I’m pretty sure most people can see and agree on what units need major/minor buffs nerfs.
Disagree on all accounts ~90% of players are campaign players and they dont need nerfed in campaign at all. MP has gotten tons of fun units nerfed into straight up flaming garbage already.
By our blood is an egregious mechanic. If you think about it something like would have never made it to TT fantasy warhammer. It's like getting a full turn get out of jail free card once per battle, which is the number of times you'll need it. Really it just needs a full rework as it is but I think they should altogether remove it from all the cheap units of the kislev roster and nerf the duration on the elite. Any non human kislev unit also don't get it.
Hey Turin I agree with the chosen units that might need a nerf but I do not agree on all the suggestions on how to do it, for example I don't agree on most multi prompted nerfs like increase the price of gyros + removing fire and shooting, any small overnerf would make units not pickable. This is more of a general critique, on Age of Empires 4 you were one of the two youtubers I watched who advocated too much for nerfs to JD faction, when it was still being learnt how to play with and specially against her, when people already had it more or less clear how to deal with her she was then overnerfed and went from A tier on most streamers tierlists to F tier, in that case I think the judgement was too sudden and innacurate and multi prompted nerfs really destroy that faction, gotta make sure that things like that do not happen in anygame. I liked the Blizzard used approach that they used for Warcraft 3 and SC 2 for buffing and nerfing units, usually were minort buffs and always generally just single prompted buffs or nerfs on a single characteristic.
Do you think Arcane Charge gets added to the centigors weapon after their charge bonus? That would mean it's multiplying a much larger effect than intended.
i dont know about domination but in lb kislev is indead strong but not unbeatable, they just need a nerf on the by our blood and maybe on the gryphon legion and they would be good, the monster sucks nowdays (bear, things in the wood, and the other one i forgot), if they nerf the infantary and archer line they will just die again just like when the game lauched
I wish they could balance MP separately from SP, I enjoy having a bombastic time in the campaign with fun shit and sometimes they nerf a little too hard
@@phocion507 Good job liking your own comment and having absolutely nothing to say except the trademark Reddit response. 'nou' you should tie the n00se, if you know what I mean.
@@khelgarironfist3301 It's a video game. It's for fun. This 'competitive' Warhammer MP is just sad. If you all want 'balance' and number-crunching statistics, go join the stock market.
"Ma, old man Turin is outside yelling at the gyrocopters again!"
The charge damage is pretty simple to explain and applies to all centigors vs infantry. They have a similar mass to all the empire knight type units (950 compared to 1k) but they have a much higher charge speed (130 vs 108), fun fact, this is the highest cavalry charge speed of the game higher than hellstriders (120) or wildriders (113).
Since the charge collision damage being all about a multiplier that takes speed and mass as parameters it explains why they hurt infantry so hard.
Then you add perfect vigour from the "rowdy" passive making it so they don"t lose weapon damage nor speed (so collision damage) and you pretty much have the perfect low cost shock cavalry as far as damage output is concerned.
Centigors of tzeench just bring it to the next level with 800 of points of barrier and arcane charge makes that perfect vigour cavalry actually see its damage output increase as the game goes on.
As for nerfs they could decrease the mass to let's say 700 (hellstriders are 650 for comparison). The rowdy trait could be looked at too as it deactivate only when you waver it's basically perfect vigour, instead it could deactivate at 50% leadership like frenzy.
I have always been wondering if speed played a part in the charge damage, especially when looking at Bretonnia's unique charge formation buff where it adds a lot of speed related buffs. Thank you for confirming my suspicions.
Great comment!
Also, CoT have longer reaching weapons, which means when they pile in, more of them can hit. Compare them to sword cav where only the front line can fight. And heavy lance cav tend to be slower & bulkier so slower attacks + less models piling in. It's a perfect storm of high damage potential, good endurance, and amazing animations.
Or lower their charge speed to be more in line with other units - unless this is some special quality they should have for lore/tabletop reasons
He mentioned everything, but yes, the animations and animation speed tend to be the most impactful invisible stat, as speed/mass can be seen/assumed. But some units tick damage faster or slower than the animation, so those hidden stats are pretty important.
I remember the new Rot Knights being insane bc how fast their animations are. Idk if they got nerfed already, but they had the DPS to bully way more expensive and complex armies than their cost.
Maybe give the steam tank a "construct" like trait, thus rendering it unable to be healed. Steam tanks always get their crazy value when heal-capped. Also dwarf rum could be made conditional, like getting the full effect while unit has more than 50% hp.
A steam tank can be healed? What? It's a tank.
Always thought this. Ridiculous that a Steam tank can get healed by any heal caster whereas other factions need to bring quite niche characters to heal theirs, i.e. chaos dwarfs and tomb kings
Honestly kind of surprised they didn't add something like that when we got the engineers.
This makes so much sense lol. Healing magic shouldn't do anything to a tank. Engineer heroes should be the only ones with an ability to heal the steam tank.
This is so obvious that I feel a bit silly for not thinking about it
Nerf by our blood, put an early campaign tech in singleplayer that brings it back to the current level. Everybody wins.
Nah singleplayer needs MP to be even further unhinged when talking about Kislev and getting By our Blood reworked instead. That's when everyone wins. Hopefully before the roster is gutted and becomes even more boring.
If you take that down, Kislev is even worse on Campaign. Can't do it.
Oh, wait, how about different data tables for MP/SP? What, is it even POSSIBLE!??!?
BoB is kinda not even an upside in campaign tho.
I really like the suggestion of turning it into an activatable map wide unbreakable army ability similar to waaagh (but maybe only with 1 charge and no need to charge up, could even add a tech that gives a 2nd charge in campaign)
^the two people above me are A terrible at making their point and B from what I can tell, don't have a very good point. If kislev needs to be OP in battle to make their campaign fun than the issue is, THEIR CAMPAIGN SUCKS. Brain dead replies.
@@the13thwarrior8yeah people who don't play mp think this is a good idea. and it's just not. a unit is a unit and players should he able to expect that it's the same unit. Making things unlockable via tech gives you more reason to play a campaign. y'all also can't get your head around the fact that balance is essential for both multiplayer AND campaign to be fun. LOTW is the best example of someone who drones on about balance being pointless, and he contradicts himself massivelly when CA fixes the unbalanced difficulty cheats and then he praises them by saying "yeah alot more stuff is viable now." yeah smart one that's what balance does for a game 😂
Re: Long drong pirates- sounds like the obvious solution would be an HP threshold- 25 or 50% under which the aura turns off.
Just nerf the range to 15 meters.
or make it a contact effect, so they cant apply it in a mass AOE and have to commit to melee to make use of it.
I'd prefer a more gradual effect decrease as the number of models goes down.
I disagree. They should actually buff other slayer pirates, the regular ones are way too underpowered, and THEN you give them a price increase accordingly
@@jabool5605making it a contact effect is the way to go, I think.
If this video was 40 minutes long, I'd watch it for 40 minutes.
The Kislev one will be.
My biggest gripe with the Stank is the inability for some units to hit it while moving. Horse or Cold one mounted SEs will fail to swing even when faster cause of some weird hitbox issue.
Makes it so there are very few options to deal with it. If that was fixed I imagine it would be manageable for more factions (with the lord on stank getting a cost increase.)
Don't even know if this is a hit box issue as much as a TWW issue, but maybe it's been fixed with other units before?
What I mean is, I've had elf dragons in tww2 just stroll out of four Cold One Knight surround without taking any damage. As long as it was moving and jostling, the damn knights just never swung at em.
In a more universal example, chasing down shattered units in campaign is like pulling teeth because no one seems capable of swinging while they're chasing unless you've got some kind of knockdown charge animation
@@blugger They fixed some of the issues with pursuit behavior a few patches back but agree its still janky trying to hit single entities.
The tank is legit busted cause its hitbox doesn't line up to where its attacked when its moving.
It would be great if they fixed the universal bug of units just pushing into each other but not attacking at all.
@@b.o.b7197 oh yeah, hit box chicanery is a staple of the CA bug hive
Fingers crossed they get to it sooner than rather later
By our blood became extremely broken when they released kislev warriors. 500g anit large with spacing that cant be routed
Kislev and broken don't belong in the same sentence. It's pretty mediocre as it stands
I think that by our blood should be kind of like martial prowess and martial mastery of the high elves. Not the HP thing but that high tier units have a better version of the passive. I think that would also encourage picking units like tzar guard instead of more armored kossar spam.
Best idea I've seen yet
The Slayer pirate ror would be fine if they tied the dwarf rum abilities potency to their current model count or hitpoints
"Ability potency decreases as unit models die/when below 50% hitpoints"
Suddenly you've got a unit with a cool buff that can be focused down to reduce potency and loses value as the match progresses.
Also makes sense considering how vulnerable slayers are
I love the format you've chosen for the video. The way you're showing off the units is so much more interesting than watching their idle animations or looking at their unit cards
1:08 Big factor is their AP ratio is insanely high and their CB inherits that. It's about 80% whereas a unit like Skullcrushers is at only 70% so the low WS goes farther than one would expect. I don't think there's any bug in how they pile in, the math checks out for the number of attacks typical for 60 entity cavalry, but with 80% AP their charges produce a guaranteed 63 damage per attacker. A good nerf is -3 AP and +3 base damage which gets them to the 70% AP ratio of other AP cav. It lowers the guaranteed damage from ~63 to ~55 which trims a bit of their excess damage. They do have an unusually fast charge speed which gives them more impact damage than most cavalry have into infantry so that's another thing that might be considered. All centigors probably need +50 gold as well, they're really good.
As a general note Chaos Knights aren't a great comparison because they're bugged currently and do less damage on the charge than their stats should produce by ~20%. It's a big reason lance knights feel so bad.
Steamtanks are broken in a lot of ways. They do way more damage than their WS should allow into all targets, their missile in melee is extremely powerful, their hitbox is desynced from their visuals which causes some jank in melee, there are a lot of things that might need to be tweaked but hard to tell given a variety of things are buggy.
Good analysis and suggestions re: Centigors of Tzeentch. As for the Steam Tank, it can't even be fought. There are units that can beat it in melee, but that doesn't matter since it can just opt out of fights indefinitely. Outside of extreme gunpowder barrages or specialized setups like double Bone Giant, the Steam Tank just gets dismissed as un-interceptable and left to be swarmed after army losses hit, as if you're fighting pre-nerf campaign Vlad or Malus Darkblade but in multiplayer. That's not a reasonable design.
When something does too much damage on the charge, it probably has something to do with collison damage. Either their mass or speed is too high.
Perfect vigor is also key for Centigors as exhaustion absolutely tanks charge damage due to the stats lost. Charge speed being the main one.
Grail knights also enjoy this, but are way more expensive.
Thunderbarge change imo should be to replace the grudgerakers on it with thunderers. Steam tank and land ship should have the construct trait, and then give engineers a repair ability so you can still heal it some, but need to invest more into doing it rather than just having a single magic caster do it all.
Yes. Not every wizard is Gelt so they can heal metal. Either give it construct, or remove the unbreakable, emphasizing its controlled by people who can be healed inside the tank or somehow life magic splashes out the fires within as it gets damaged... cant have the best of both worlds.
I also love how all people agree Thunderbarge's biggest issue was dishing out a ton of dmg quickly. But then CA nerfs EVERYTHING BUT THAT aspect of the unit, and there is some collective brainwashing going around that the Barge is fine now. It does the exact same thing it did on launch. Just slightly easier to focus down... if you have something to do it with in the first place. And oh wow it doesnt have infinite ammo anymore, but it doesnt need to when it still does 5k value in less than 5 minutes.
Not the "construct" trait they should have a "war machine" trait. Necrotects healing Stanks wouldn't make sense either.
@Grivehn but the landship is made mostly of wood and gelt cant heal that :(
Guess he could turn it to gold, but gold wont float!...on land?
A video about all the Haggard units, the meme picks that need milk, would be cool! (Poor greasus, for example)
I was really hoping to see Valkia on this list. She's an obvious autopick in every matchup. Especially that she's not only a AL & AP duelist, but also has an amazing item that pretty much gives you 3 overcasted pendulums from the Lore of Valkia
She only has 2 uses of it
She's not op its just khorne doesn't have a second lord option.
Unpopular opinion here about the dwarfs, while I agree that the steam copters need a gold increase, I would be wary about changing much else, you have to remember 2 things, 1st that is the equivalent of dwarf cavalry, the only unit that allows the dwarfs to skirmish effectively, so losing shooting while moving will only send them back into the never picked unit pile like where they used to be, exactly the same issue with the bolt throwes getting nerfs, they would go straight back to "why take them over cannons" if they become the same price, and the 2nd why is it fine to call copters over powered for getting high value even with minimum player input or countering, but all other factions that have access to magic lores that have spells that can oneshot your battle line is okay ? Seems pretty unfair particularly when the dwarfs don't have magic but their thing to re place it, e.i very strong warmachines get called out when they are finally useable.
the balance between cool and strong units and having every roster be exactly equal is tough I guess. hope you and other top players keep giving feedback like this!
Centigors in general do a lot more damage on charge than their statline suggests due to disproportionally large charge speed. Usually cavalry units get about 20 more speed on charge, centigors get 46. If their charge speed was tuned down from 130 to around 105 I think they'd be more reasonable.
Steam tanks need to have minimum firing range for their main cannon, something like 20 range so that engaging them in melee is actually beneficial. And healing from lore of life definitely shouldn't be working on them.
Main issue with dwarven bolt throwers is that their stats weren't adjusted at all with the model count buff. Most artillery units have around 4500 health, the bolt thrower has 8500. Halve the health per model and possibly tune down their AP ratio so that they don't outperform cannons so heavily.
Gyrocopters I'm a bit unsure of. I feel like they are just way too hard to kill and get value too easily. Maybe something like less health per model so that skirmishers trade better against them and steam guns losing most of their damage, but gaining bonus vs large on shots so that they have to specifically target cavalry or large SE's to get value.
Dragonslayer just needs a cost increase, nothing more to it.
Long Drong Slayer Pirates need the debuff to work more conditionally, like it only being active if the unit has over 50% health. The effect definitely shouldn't persist until you kill the last model.
Interesting idea for balancing the steam tank: IRL steam engines (if they aren't built with a condenser for the circulating steam to recondense back into water) lose power after prolonged operation due to the boiler running low on water.
Perhaps CA can give steam tanks an ability that adds a progressive speed and/or speed/mass debuff that scales with the tank's vigor level. Steam tanks could still do their thing early in the battle, but having them dive in later in a fight would be more of a risk. Encourages using them with a Blitzkrieg playstyle in mind.
That sounds very good actually, having vigour for steam units would be cool. Though for that the game would have to acknowledge how absurd steam vehicles are lmao
Rules like that were on the tabletop but they won't be here because they're not "fun, fair, and balanced." Just like lethal miscasts, spontaneous action traits, war machine mishaps, you get it.
That makes a TON of sense!!
And to elaborate, I could see myself holding the Stank in reserve and only bringing it out once my enemy has been fighting for a few minutes already so we can have a 'vigor' advantage on the Stank.
@@johndane9754 Part of the reason is that TT was designed for single battles whereas the majority of WH3 players appear to be campaign players that wouldn't like their unit blowing up randomly and being permanently dead. If dead models on TT were actually destroyed then TT players wouldn't have liked those random mishap rules either.
@@Monochromatic_Spider The point is anything that interferes with the ocd levels of unit micro managing control is automatically written off as bad by communittee concensus. It why there are no weather effects, barely any environmental effects with the one's that are there just as consequential. No day/night effect, no directional sun effect, no long grass, mud, sand, tactical rocks, heights, cold, heat. Unit unreliability and unpredictability from units that are said to be just as such were small parts of used to be a more dynamic system. Nowadays there's hardly any of the battlefield dynamism that used to be in this series. WHat's here are pretty splashes in a pond.
My fixes:
Centigors of Tzeench: leadership decrease & replace their AP with Anti-large. They'll still be effective vs cav and as a sweeper unit, but they won't be able to slaughter infantry with the same effectiveness. Also it would make them less effective diving backlines forcing greater unit diversity. Tzeench has always been more halberd anti-large than great weapon AP anyways.
Steam Tank: Can't be healed by life magic. Give the Master Engineer hero a necrotect-like item/ability for healing mechanical units (Landship, Steamtank, mechanical horses). This heal would be less powerful than Jade magic (which is OP AF) & would force the Empire to pay more for an extra hero if they want to heal Steam Tank. It also might encourage non-Jade wizard builds, which you never see with Empire anymore.
Bolt Throwers: Decrease damage and increase bonus vs large. This would make them more of an anti-large specialist. It would force the Dowi to think more about what arty to bring, and would allow them to still have a cheaper arty option.
Gyros: No fire while moving and a minor speed reduction. Let other flying units actually catch them. They shouldn't be self-sufficient & ought to rely on other dowi ranged units for cover.
Dragon Slayers: cost increase.
Me watching this: Huh, there is a gyro that has a flame thrower? lmao
Imagine being amazed by a cav charge.
Just use spears that deny charge and get missiles on them? Sounds like a skill issue
Steam tank and landships should have severely reduced healing cap, like 20-30% of the normal amount
By Our Blood was always obnoxious, also in SP, both to play against and even with as it increases the risk of a unit being completely wiped unless you go sweaty micro in most SP battles. But if Kislev 'requires' it, why not tier it like the Elf stuff so that the low level units have a 10 sec duration version or smth, and let Tzar and Ice Guard keep the 20-25s one. I dont MP a lot, but it feels like the main issue is BOB on swarms of lowtier inf
Throwing axe units in general seem pretty overpowered and universally brought to every single match-up. It's at the point where you never see Norscan Horsemasters because the throwing axes are both cheaper and better.
I'd love seeing them all nerfed in exchange for buffs elsewhere on their respective rosters. Shake it up a little.
They could use a range nerf. How far can you really hurl throwing axes compared to bow arrows and crossbow bolts?
@@emultra759 range nerf and cost increase probably. Maybe also a weapon strength nerf for melee and missiles. For Norsca specifically I'd look into giving the Horsemasters a bonus versus large to give them a niche that the throwing axes can't overshadow
@@emultra759I find axe throwing fun as hell. I wanna do javelins irl now
@@emultra759 80 range unit needs range nerf? Wouldn't they be basically throwing from melee then?
@@kubka4 Gnoblar trappers have 70 range. Dwarfs with blasting charges have 55. I don't think 60 range is unreasonable for axes. They're easily caught, yeah, but at the moment they're basically Dark Riders with repeater crossbows, except they have shields and better melee stats.
It's great that you make videos like this for awareness sake. Please consider making videos about units that should be buffed as well, like the K'daai Destroyer.
Another mechanic that really freaks me out is the silence aura of Kharanak and the Golden Knight. It makes so many fun and interesting builds unplayable and shifts the meta even more in the direction of flying caster lords we see fuckin everywhere already anyway… and brw who on earth thought anti-magic auras should block non-magic abilities as well? It is dumb. Just dumb. From a lore perspective as much as from a balance and variety perspective. If you wanna nerf magic, just nerf fuckin magic, especially life and death lore. But this silence aura bs is just bs.
Centigors need to be nerfed, no question. Whenever a unit is a "must pick" with every faction that has it (aka chaos furies), it's a problem. Good video!
Speaking of seeing Centigors of TZ on screen with Grail Knights... either nerf Grail Knights, or buff every single tier4-5 non-human cavalry to their level or just about. Its just wierd how Bret knights are lore accurate, whilst none of the other heavy hitters like Juggernauts are.
Cold Ones for both lizards and dark elves, demonic cavalry of all flavors, necropolis knights (at least the halberd variant), Blood Knights, High elven cav sans Fireborn, theyre all pitiful compared to Bretonnia, Empire and Kislev cavalry.
@@Grivehn I was under the impression that Grail Knights where the best knights in the setting, Any that can compare are naturally weak to the aura that Grail knights have, ie demonic and undead.
@@Grivehnbret cav is good because their infantry, archery and artillery are sub par. And grail knights just got nerfed last patch, it was the only change to bretonnia.
Also if it's a must pick in basically every matchup.
It crazy that even in the dwarf campaign that the fire gyrocopter is a higher tier than the ap one. Its just worse. If you want a fire unit that debuffs you just use the fire cannon or the iron drakes because they do way more damage while also debuffing.
Fire one is good vs skaven as the contact effect is good at dropping their leadership. Same goes for undead with low armour.
You might not read this but I hope you do make a Kislev video. I don't play tournaments but I always find it interesting when I see perspectives that are outside of my experience with a game i play.
As an aside I'm a DBD player and none of their tournaments are played with unlimited rulesets, they have tiers which determine what you are allowed to bring into a match based off who you are playing against. Have you guys ever tried something like that in a tournament? Sorry, like I said I'm not in the tournament scene but from what I have seen you guys look to CA for balancing which seems very odd to me and I'm curious why that is the case.
Gyros need more nerfs than move and shoot. They can turn off fire at will and fly directly into a unit of handguns shooting at them and lose no models on the first volley, and instant kill the handguns with bombs before another volley goes off. Removing only move and shoot would not fix how cancerous this unit is.
Ohh yeh baby i was waiting for turin to go into the unhinged rant arc!
I am reminded of the always sunny in Philadelphia meme.
It absolutely blew my mind when I noticed that Gyrocopters have the same price as Outriders. It is insane how much better Gyrocopters are!
Re: the Slayer Pirate RoR, adding a condition that the unit must be above a certain percentage of HP for it to apply would fix it being a perma-debuff until wiped.
I would argue maybe make Arcane Charge a temporary buff instead of a permanent one. That way you're still encourage to use spells with Tzeentch Beastmen but they don't become objectively better than the normal counterpart as the game goes on
The dawi are only 6th in win%. With all those nerfs would the even be okay anymore? I mean their win percentage is just propped up by those few units imo.
Steam Tank: It should not be healable by regular healing magic unless it loses its unbreakable status. It might not be a construct in the Tomb Kings sense, but why is it unbreakable? It's still driven by a human. Even the Rogue Idol lost its unbreakable status, and that's a rock monster. Also, make the steam tank lose vigor faster when ramming units in melee.
Long Drong: Make the -10 MA debuff aura scale negatively with remaining unit models as an incentive to attack the unit. -10% effect per 10% models lost, e.g. -5 MA at 50% models, would be a good starting point for testing. It'd still be powerful but more reasonable.
Steam gyrocopters: No attack while moving, as mentioned. That should be reserved for units with more modest shooting, like Hawk (Tuah?) Riders. Also lose either some of the armor or the 105 speed. The only air units that out-speed copters are a few SE's like Great Moon Bird, Arcane Phoenix, Feral Wyvern or whatever, and those are not effective against that model count.
By Our Blood: I think a big duration nerf would rob Kislev of a lot of its identity. How about this: By Our Blood works like currently but also lowers damage output by a lot, say 50%. The idea with BOB shouldn't be for every last Kislevite to facetank and cause a bunch of attrition damage, but to buy time for peeling, repositioning etc. This way you still get that added "wasteland hardiness" in the face of overwhelming odds; it just cant be used to make every Kislev unit uptrade unfairly.
I would add Chaos furies to the list, they're obnoxious to play against and too easy to use. No idea for land battle, but in dom you can just spam them and have constant furies flooding the battlefield. being a demon unit, they disintegrate which adds them back into your pool quicker than units that route as well. disclaimer - i have no idea how to change them tho, dont want them to be pathetic like they used to be, but dont want them to be a "always take 3-4 in every army" unit
I like the directional shielding on the steam tank, but agree they are way too strong. Why not double down on it though? Make the steam tanks take MORE damage if shot at from behind. Like a +25% modifier or something. Should make for more interesting gameplay and fits well with the models which have the huge boilers sticking out the back.
gyros take less damage than you would expect because they take reduced damage from the unit on the ground shooting up!
None of these units need to be nerfed just because a small group of people participate in tournaments. You guys are not the only players who play the game. Get good.
For the steam gyros you could always add something fun to nerf them, the more ammo the use the less damage and speed they have? Or have fatigue effect weapon strength.
To show how they are using up their steam.
Also for Kislev there could be 2 tiers of BOB, a lesser one for trash units which has a conditional activation, like being in leadership aura or encouragement. And the standard version for better units.
So the drafted peasants will only stand and fight with better allies nearby, not as a standard.
forgot to mention pestigors, dirt cheap armor piercing + poison + vanguard unit either stats reduction or cost increase would do
Good list! I think +100g on dragon slayer is more than enough nerf if you want the unit viable still; but the daemon slayer also needs +100g.
Meanwhile fiends might have needed an honorable mention.
Finally all centigors have too much damage right now not just tzeentigors. They all got the same stealth bug fix buff a few patches ago and all need nerfs.
Tell me you've been wrecked by Dwarves on the ladder, without telling me you've been wrecked by Dwarves on the ladder.
Sorry, normally I agree with you, but the dwarfs are NOT needing nerfs.
Playing Tamurkhan and Boris with by our blood bears and sleds was insane early on. I could not protect my Chaos Dwarf guns to save my life. I think that skill would tilt me hard in MP
nooo! don't touch my stuntiez!? they suffered long enough.
Yes, let's nerf everything fun so it ruins sp and everyone can go back to using spearmen and archers in multiplayer again
I feel like a simple fix to the Steam Tanks would be to make them unhealable with Regrowth, Earthblood, etc. It never made much sense why a magical healer can heal a metal machine.
It wouldn't be the easiest fix, but I like the flavor of Long Drong's Dwarf Rum having intensity based on remaining health or models. Being surrounded by full health drunk dwarves still gives -10 MA but proportionally lower as they take damage. An HP cutoff is reasonable but they take damage pretty quickly so I think it still needs to be noticeable and useful when the unit is pretty healthy.
I think nerfing by cost is not the right way. It has 0 effect on campaign, while balance issues are present in campaign. Balance power by balancing power.
This is what happens when you make a game with this much stuff in it to balance and then try to cater to both MP and SP players with the same stat sheets… just can’t work. Shoulda always had seperate stats for both or something.
Creative assembly unable to properly balance their game? Color me shocked! Shocked i say! And by shocked i mean, not shocked at all as this is par for the course for the creatively bankrupt assembly.
You players deserve a better class of developers, and deserve a better game.
Personally.i think multiplayer has had more focus than it deserves based on the playerbase. It's about time they switch over to SP content where the actual gameplay numbers are.
For Kislev nerf the Meleeattack of the Elemtal Incarnate. They gave him BvI instead of BvLarge so it doesnt dominate other SEs, which is cute when it has 62 MA!!!
Nerf that and give it Frenzy, its a wild Beast Avatar.
Steam stuff should have ridiculously slow turning rate and deacceleration.
You might be able to steam power it to a decent speed, but turning them would be almost impossible.
You don't want to add cost to Kislev units before you see how nerfing BOB effects their effectiveness. Kislev units are not cheap to begin with.
As a beastmen player we need it. We've been mid tier for far too long.
Gyrocopters should have their missile attributes adjusted so the projectile is way less accurate. Double the calibration area, lower the projectile velocity of the steam cannon, and enable high air resistance for the projectile
TY! Ladder feels near dead at certain hours now. Just too many people wanting to play S-tier needing to be dodged.
So looking at the Centigors of Tzeentch in the DB tables (basically the game files), they share the same stats, animations, and battle entity as the normal Centigors GW. They do have different melee weapons, but all of the stats there are exactly the same besides an audio difference and the magical attacks modifier.
So that means if there's anything that's causing an over-performance for their unit, it would have to be either Arcane Charge, their Barrier, or both. It may be a case of the extra damage + the extra 800 HP gives them just the push they need to really shine as a unit. Or maybe Arcane Charge is bugged somehow and giving way more weapon strength than it should. Not sure.
There’s nothing special about them. All centigors hit just as hard right now and all are OP. Barrier helps them in battles though.
Can we also have a these units need buffs video?
Yes!
Instead of nerfing, can playera not just adjust tactics? I'm tired of nerfs.
Turin TW3 livestream is whats missing the most :(
I really wish CA would fix the colours on the Bretonnian Kinghts fixed once and for all. Knights and mounts paired.
I think the Dwarf Rum ability should be a scaling ability that lowers depending on the number of entities left, kind of like a reverse of the abilities that build up from zero
CA! BUFF SKULLCRACKER AND MY LIFE IS YOURS!
Kislev boyar blood mechanic drives me up a wall, the centigors need a look for sure, i often auto concede when i see dwarf players truly unfun faction to verse rn
More unhinged rants!
Like before watching
Grabbing popcorn and waiting for the guys from the 'NeverNerfAnythingLand' in the comments
I know i will get a lot of hate but idc and i will still say what i think. I don't even like to play multiplayer myself but i followed multiplayer just for fun for years: but here is the problem. Multiplayer community needs to stop asking for nerfs every time a unit is made viable in single player. It is clearly evident that people don't play VH/Leg campaign with dwafs a lot, otherwise they would know the amount of crap it's thrown at you at the start of the campaign. Especially skaven are dealt mostly thanks to gyros, and people keeos asking for nerfs. The By our Blood one is utterly pathetic: kislev is meant to have that mechanic and based as well on the amount of enemies and crap you get thrown at in their campaigns. Ranting on kislev that is a mediocre faction as other stated, is utterly unconcievable. I will nerver forget the nerf asked by MP to ironblasters. A unit that needed a massive amount of turns and fatigue to reach to finally have something to help a underwhelming faction as the ogres, got nerfed into a pile of crap just because in mp was too strong. Just make house rules and stop asking nerfs every time a dlc drops, because that is ridiculous. I think i am not the only one with this opinion, but it's very simple: i want to be rewarded for the amount of work i have to put in into my high difficulty campaign with extremely strong units. I don't want to fight black orcs with miners because MP community can't handle T5 units. Give me all the hate you want, this will be my opinion nontheless. Have a nice day.
None of this is related to singleplayer, this is a multiplayer channel and therefore, only focuses on multiplayer. CA is aware of that whenever Turin makes these suggestions / gives his opinion. Campaign youtubers work in similar ways.
Ironically the skaven is one if the best faction to rekt gyros. If is controlled by a human player.
This video needed to be made
Kislev passive is brainless, it should be a reverse Frenzy, kinda like what the Sisters of Slaughter have IIRC, where if they are losing a fight they get defensive buffs. Some MD and LD when losing a fight.
The answer to ALL mp balancing issues is cost changes in mp only. I like MP, it's good fun, but there should be 0 pvp stat changes.
Yay the niche mp community once again will deliver nerfs for a sp game. Can you guys go outside for once, some of us play video games for fun
How about we stop letting content creators dictate balance changes for a total war game when MP represents
Why does it matter? At the end of day 1-
everything is broken in campaign anyway
2- you're just as likely to encounter the AI fielding OP stuff as you are to use it yourself
3- these 5% are also some of the most dedicated and visible promoters of the game online. Listening to what they have to say is only fair.
@@therandomheretek5403
1. No
2. No you're not, the AI isn't smart enough to field 19 Shades with 205 range
3. They should be listened to, that isnt what he is saying. He is saying they shouldnt dictate balance changes, ie have primary influence
@@therandomheretek5403 Some of us play video games for fun. Try treating it as a hobby rather than an obsession and dos omething productive with your life, for once. If you want to crunch numbers and 'balance' things, join the stock brokers.
Who else is going to dictate the balance changes? The creators CLEARLY AND OBVIOUSLY do not do extensive balance testing. If you think they do look at gorgers on launch, the thunderbarge on launch, grom the paunch on launch. Who else is at a better position to dictate balance than a person who's entire job is watching and casting videos of the multitudes of interactions between units in the game? CA should be paying Turin for what he's done for the game. He single handedly carries multiplayer, and if you think they don't use what he says logically to determine their balance you are delusional boss
Units 1-5 on my list are Centigors and have been for a long time.
I think the ability to move and shoot should stay but increase their cost by a lot.
Its cooler to have them move and shoot. More lore friendly :)
Just increase the cost or lower the damage
Brimstone gyros suck
These nerfs will hurt campaign
Just add some buffs to those nerfed units in the campaign tech tree, boom problem solved. Eg if you tier out By Our Blood to be 10s for low tier units and 20 for higher ones, have an early campaign tech that brings the low one up to 20 and you're done.
Agree with everything here. Nerfs and buffs should be pretty simple to decode apon surely. Any over performing auto pick unit in top tier factions should be nerfed (big or small nerf) and any units that are never seen in lower tier factions should be buffed. The odd unused unit in top tier factions may need buffs too and same at the bottom end for nerfs. I’m pretty sure most people can see and agree on what units need major/minor buffs nerfs.
it’s horrible how normal the Centigors of Tzeentch look. The Bretonnian men-at-arms look more dedicated to Tzeentch than they do to
Disagree on all accounts ~90% of players are campaign players and they dont need nerfed in campaign at all. MP has gotten tons of fun units nerfed into straight up flaming garbage already.
Kislev is such a weird one as it's so increadibly strong in mutliplater battles, but unlike the empire or the dwarves, are really bad in campaign.
By our blood is an egregious mechanic. If you think about it something like would have never made it to TT fantasy warhammer. It's like getting a full turn get out of jail free card once per battle, which is the number of times you'll need it.
Really it just needs a full rework as it is but I think they should altogether remove it from all the cheap units of the kislev roster and nerf the duration on the elite. Any non human kislev unit also don't get it.
Hey Turin I agree with the chosen units that might need a nerf but I do not agree on all the suggestions on how to do it, for example I don't agree on most multi prompted nerfs like increase the price of gyros + removing fire and shooting, any small overnerf would make units not pickable. This is more of a general critique, on Age of Empires 4 you were one of the two youtubers I watched who advocated too much for nerfs to JD faction, when it was still being learnt how to play with and specially against her, when people already had it more or less clear how to deal with her she was then overnerfed and went from A tier on most streamers tierlists to F tier, in that case I think the judgement was too sudden and innacurate and multi prompted nerfs really destroy that faction, gotta make sure that things like that do not happen in anygame.
I liked the Blizzard used approach that they used for Warcraft 3 and SC 2 for buffing and nerfing units, usually were minort buffs and always generally just single prompted buffs or nerfs on a single characteristic.
When Turin pounds the table, I listen.
Do you think Arcane Charge gets added to the centigors weapon after their charge bonus? That would mean it's multiplying a much larger effect than intended.
i dont know about domination but in lb kislev is indead strong but not unbeatable, they just need a nerf on the by our blood and maybe on the gryphon legion and they would be good, the monster sucks nowdays (bear, things in the wood, and the other one i forgot), if they nerf the infantary and archer line they will just die again just like when the game lauched
I wish they could balance MP separately from SP, I enjoy having a bombastic time in the campaign with fun shit and sometimes they nerf a little too hard
Nah SP needs balance too. Download cheat mods if you want broken stuff.
@@phocion507 Some of us play video games for fun, not obsess over them more than what they should solely be; a fun hobby. Get out more.
@@mikeslick3833 What. Project much? Lmao.
@@phocion507 Good job liking your own comment and having absolutely nothing to say except the trademark Reddit response. 'nou' you should tie the n00se, if you know what I mean.
Turin speaking facts as usual
Remove by our blood from kislev tier 1 and 2 units. Keep it for tier 3 and higher.
I just wish that MP and SP were balanced differently as far as base stats are concerned.
Yeah. I only play single player at the moment and the last thing I need is nerfs to centigors...
SP would be an even more unbalanced mess
They are. Lord abilities and techtrees affect SP units in huge ways
@@khelgarironfist3301 It's a video game. It's for fun. This 'competitive' Warhammer MP is just sad. If you all want 'balance' and number-crunching statistics, go join the stock market.
@@mikeslick3833 i'm already in the stock market lol. And i don't enjoy games without balance.
Dont forget Fiends and Doomflayers as well T. Good video 👍
Awesome editing on this one chief
Wazzok want to nerf us even more, have we not suffered enough?
You going in the book
Do they still have that one skaven legenday lord with the By Our Blood ability?
Han on a second, I need yo get myself a cup of coffee. This is gonna be good!