Rotordynamic Modal Analysis of Impeller in ANSYS PART-2
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- čas přidán 9. 09. 2024
- This video explains the rotor dynamic analysis of impeller in ANSYS. It explains the basic procedure to perform the rotor dynamic analysis, like how to define analysis setting, rotational velocity, constrained points, bearing modeling, contact definitions, results discussion like, forward whirl, backward whirl, critical speed, stability, it also explains the instability mode shapes, etc.
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It is very helpful. I was able to understand and perform similar FEA for machine tool shaft rotation vibrations.
Go to here that it is useful for you.
Thank you very much for your detailed explanation.....
Thanks & welcome !
Keep uploading such videos sir....grt
Thank you! Sure
I have a question, when studying rotor dynamic, we plot campbell diagram. I always see the curves going linear and symmetric, but what happen when the curves aren't linear and symmetric? I'm dealing with a project and I can't explain why one of the curves isn't linear.
Hi, in Campbell diagram, how did ANSYS able to plot excitation frequency points or line? Thank you.
nice sharing!
Thank you
thank you very much.
You are welcome!
Thank you so much
You're most welcome
Thanks for the video. You did not add damping to the bearing, did you? you just added cross coupling stiffness (K12 and K21) to the bearings.
Yes..You can add damping details if you may have.
Thank you so much.
Can you give us a picture or an example of how to find this value(K11,K22,K12,K21 and C11,C22,C12,C21) from the manufacturing catalog
Welcome ! You will get this values from respective bearing manufacturers.
Excuse me sir, I didn't understand why you set the remote displacement to 0° for z axis. And I have another question: what if there is a support in the model? Do I have to use the "body to body bearing" tool to create a bearing between support and shaft? And what kind of displacement do I need to use in this case?
Hi sir , i couldn't find any bearing stiffness values from manufacturing catalog, please can you share about bearing stiffness and damping information
We just did some assumption for explanation. You need to ask to manufacturer for the same.
Hello and thank you for an informative video. I am beginning to learn about rotor-dynamic analysis with FEA and have a question which perplexes me: In this example you seemed to declare a boundary condition of 0 (zero) rotation of the shaft at the endpoints of the beam. I am not an ANSYS user, and most of my experience is stress/displacement, but it looked like this as well as 0 displacement in the Z. This is difficult for me to understand because the shaft is supposed to be spinning in real life - so the question is: WHY do we declare zero rotation at the bearing points?
Please do read reply to comments on this video. It you will not constraint the Z movement then it will show rigid body motion. It is consider as worst case which might be the case of bearing lock scenario.
Refering to some research paper, Campbell diagram show two curves for a single mode diverging up and converging down. But the Campbell diagram shown in figure showing only one line for each mode.
The Campbell diagram may vary with respective geometry, loading & BC. It is simple exercise you can simulate and crosscheck, let us know if you found any deficiency.
What is the purpose of that ratio=1, the black line?
sir, what is pin ball radius....? how it works
Pin ball create contacts between two bodies which are at some distance apart. You can define the respective distance as a pinball radius.
Please explain cleanly why we do modal analysis and Campbell diagram and after looking at diagram what we need to check and improve in the design
The damping you added was for bearings only or for rotor and shaft as well?
Thanks! I think for bearings only.
@@graspengineering9249 hi, dear sir! i did an analysis following your instructions for a vertical axis turbine rotor with multiple blades and applied stiffness and damping values. The analysis was done at 100 rpm, 250 rpm and 525.5 rpm for rotational velocity (converted into rad/s). Compared to your analysis the material was aircraft grade aluminum and the rotation speed is very low. I obtained many stability values of 0 and only 1 unstable mode at negative stability and negative damping ratio value. (there was no mass imbalance as well) However, what bothers me is that the Campbell diagram shows no critical speed in this range also shows only one unstable mode. Please let me know if this scenario is possible or if there is any problem.
Thank you for your kindness!
dear sir, i conducted the following analysis on a vertical axis wind turbine with many blades and there was no unbalanced mass added. The max RPM of the turbine are 525. I applied the bearing values as well. in the results i obtained many 0 values for stability and no critical speed. Also, i only got 1 unstable mode along with some undetermined stable modes. is it possible to get no critical speed given there is no mass imbalance also i got stable modes at many 0 stability value.
Kindly check if the model is constrained properly or not. If you are getting first six modes zero means model is not constrained. But 7th mode onward you should have some values. Stable unstable modes are based on your inputs, geometry, etc.
@@graspengineering9249 the central shaft of the turbine is hollow. I have placed bearings on both ends and 0 REMOTE displacement constraints in axial direction. I added stiffness as well as damping for bearings.
Sir it is impeller of which system?.
Like centrifugal pump,or centrifugal compressor or turbine sir
You need to check setting and define controls as per your convenience.
My rotor shaft is bolted to the impeller. So I have to model the bearing on a 3D shaft. Do you have any suggestions as to how it can be done? The concept of bearing and the remote displacement do not work properly. Thanks.
You can follow the same approach. Model bearing on 3D shaft define contact connection or bolted connection between shaft and impeller.
Dear Sir,
Please upload a video how yuou have created the line body for shaft
You can create first sketch on plane, then line from sketch and then create cross section and asigned that crosssection to the line.
Sir, What are the reasons for undetermined & stable whirl direction? (when I performed a different analysis, I have obtained undetermined and stable whirl. Pls explain the reason.)Also, is it possible to obtain same frequency at different speeds for same components and how? And why do we have to make the Z axis displacement and rotation 'zero' if the component has to rotate along Z axis. Everyone reading this are welcome to answer the above questions. Thanks in advance. ;)
Hello !
1. When a rotating structure vibrates at its resonant frequency, points on the spin axis undergo an orbital motion, called whirling. When rotar rotates on whirl orbit, it might be stable forward or backward whirl. Kindly check wether it is forward or backward in your case.
2. Yes it is possible to obtain same frequency for different speed, eg. Variable speed equipment (Compressor).
3. If you keep free in Z axis then their will not be stresses. We are doing as bearing lock scenario. In FEA we need to constrain in order to avoid rigid body motion.
@@graspengineering9249Sir, Thanks for replying :) Understood now. That cleared a lot of things. Btw, I would like to know how to perform *modal analysis* of an axisymmetric shaft. I tried to do analysis for an axisymmtric shaft and compared my results with 3D shaft of same dimensions and the results had huge variation(Shaft dimensions were: Length=1000mm, inner radius= 10mm, thickness=20mm. Boundary condition was FIXED SUPPORT at the either ends of the shaft). In 3D, my first natural frequency was 206hz and in 2D axisymmetric (in X-Y plane ) it was 2506hz. I have changed the behaviour type to Axisymmetric but still I'm unable to match the results. I would like to know what have I missed. Kindly, can you make a video of the same or provide solution through any other channel?
In reality, shaft will not rotate freely. Rotor is doing some work like compressing the air, machining any part, giving speed to water in case of pump etc. while doing work, the rotor system is experiencing resistance towards its free rotation. Which is called torque load on rotor system. Hence we need to fix the rotation DoF to simulate reality.
Hi. when i do a rotordynamic sim by putting the same boundary conditions as yours, I always get a large total deformation, like 10mm, 50mm, 100mm etc. Why is this and how to solve this issue?
Check the boundary conditions, it should be similar to your actual site condition. You might need to lock few more dof to reduce the deformations.
Nice explanation 👍it's help me lot. How to make a correlation between Intel swirl ratio and cross-coupled stiffness & damping stiffness ?For example inlet swirl increasing than what is the behaviour of cross-coupled stiffness & damping . Is it possible ?
Welcome ! We will try to write the blogpost (our our blog) on this topic and will explain all detail information.
When you added remote displacement why you make rotation about the z axis Zero ? i see the model rotation is about z axis here .
To avoid rigid body motion, we kept Rz as zero. We already reply to this question, Please check below reply to the comments.
Hi, I don t understand why you put cl bearing and remote displacement on thé same vertex. Why no troubleshooting on cl ?
Bearing is created in different plane (X-Y) while the constraint is given in axial direction. We will get results only when we restrict the few DOF.
Dear Sir, what mean by stiffness (K11, K22, K12, K21), as Sir only inserted the value for K11, K22., may i know why K21, K12 kept zero? Plus, in order to simulate stability, damping value should be activated as well, what is minimum value required for no damping situation but still want to see the stability ? Thankyou Sir
Hello, The stiffness characteristics K11, K22, K12, and K21, and damping characteristics C11, C22, C12, and C21 are used to model four spring-damper sets in a plane of a rotating shaft. If you have only two damper then only enter two values. If no damping then put zero or else keep as aluminium as possible, like 0.01 to 0.05
why you constrained the two end nodes in Rotz direction. The shaft should have to rotate in the Z direction i hope.
In FEA we need to constrained to get the effect of applied loads, hence to see the effect of z direction motion at the center, we constrained rotz at ends, it is like bearing lock phenomena.
Hello sir thanks for the explanation but can u please explain if bearing stiffness is its axial stiffness of radial and if it is not know how to go about it.
Thanks. Your question is not clear but whatever the stiffness values you may have, you can define it in respective direction only.
Hello Sir,
What material did you assign for the impeller and the shaft?
Does the result vary due to material assignment?
I think, we used by default material which is structural steel as a material. Results should vary if material changes.
you made shaft with 4 vertices how you did it?
Split the edges
Hi sir, In Campbell diagram there is one black line of ratio. What is meaning of it and what it indicates
It is excitation line. It may come from unbalance that is synchronous with the rotational velocity
or from any asynchronous excitation.
Hello sir, what should i do get gyroscopic effects, is it only limited to having the damping ratio or something more?
You might asking about gyroscopic couple, A reaction moment appears called gyroscopic moment with axis perpendicular to both the spin axis and the precession axis (perpendicular to spin axis).
Hello, It's me again. 2 years later ;) . My question is how can we do if these bearing stiffness and damping coefficients are dependent on rotational velocity of the rotor ? I mean those are not constants but I have several values corresponding to different velocities (300,500,700,900.. rmp). Thank in advance for your help
Hello ! You can define this varying bearing stiffness to accommodate its effect in simulation.
Hi sir. this video help me lot. Can you share the geometry used in this video?
Will upload soon on our blopost.
sir i m trying the way you suggest me .... i have generate the shaft using extrude a circle but not working can you please how you have generated "LINE ", "PROJECTION", and "1 CROSS SECTION" in your tree outline .Waiting for your positive reply sir
You can do as suggested or else you can draw a line in design modular ( by creating coordinate system & sketch) then create cross section and assign this cross section to the line & then split line at the center in order to create contact with impeller.
Refering to some research paper, Campbell diagram show two curves for a single mode diverging up and converging down. But the Campbell diagram shown in figure showing only one line for each mode.
Sir what is the exciting frequency? Is it more or less than the frequencies shown?
Excitation frequency is nothing the frequency of equipment of the system, for present case rotational frequency of impeller.
Suppose if you have motor with base frame assembly, in that case the motor have some frequency that is nothing but excitation frequency, while base frame have some natural frequency which might me lower or upper than excitation frequency.
Hi, thx for the video. How can I analyze Dual rotor?
Welcome. You can analyze in similar way. Model both the rotor and apply realistic BS & loads.
Hii sir, your videos are real helping me out as beginner.
Kindly suggest as just beginner, shall I join 1) hypermesh and radioss course
Or
2) hypermesh and ansys course using workbench and apdl
Ppz reply, I am running out of time
Hello, Thanks for appreciations.
1. Hypermesh with radioss is used mostly in automobile domain. Radioss is used limited in the industry.
2. Hypermesh WIth ANSYS. ANSYS is used Widely and more frequently in most of domain.
I think 2nd option is quite better for more opportunities.
But instead of doing course try to learn from online free tutorials. Most of courses will cover only beginning parts.
@@graspengineering9249 Grasp Engineering Thanx alot for clearing, the IFS academy in Pune I locked as option, a 4 months diploma they are offering me for 60k, would like to share its course content with you for reviewing. May I know your mail id plz!
@@rajatgupta5984 The coarse is only better option if they are giving 100 % placement, neither better try to learn online and get job in small firm and then in big organisations. The courses only covered basics level.
@@graspengineering9249 Introduction to Finite Element Analysis
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@@rajatgupta5984 They are covering most of basics but ask for placement too.
how to sperate rotating and non rotating parts in ansys workbench? i tried to do similar simulation but unable to apply rotating force? pls make video on that
Why do you want to separate ?
@@graspengineering9249 Thank u for replying.. :) my model is very simple, disk attached to a cantilever shaft.. i need disk and shaft to be rotating and bearing to be non- rotating...Bearing on the other side of the disk...how can i do? m very new to ansys.. imgur.com/a/pfGtQGX. I also want to represent my shaft into 1 D like u have done in the video.. is it possible to do if i have imported my model from Solidwork??
Why do we need rotational speed as input cause critical velocity and frequency nodes are irrespective of rotational velocity
Impeller is subjected to rotation hence we need apply respective rotational velocity. Natural frequency will affect due applied rotational velocity and BC input.
im no expert but i know that without rotational velocity its only a modal analysis but if you input rotational speed then it becomes a rotodynamic analysis which is the point of this video. without rotational speed, you cant get the campbell diagram.
Hello sir
How do you get shaft vertices. How you modelled the shaft?
You can model shaft with line and then assign cross section. When you split lines, you will get vertices.
Can I use this for analysis of impeller of pump in no fluid condition for stresses developed ( stress distribution) by its rotation only?
Yes. But if you are looking stresses due to torque/moment, you can use static analysis.
I am looking for stresses developed due to centrifugal forces only..
Then?
Then do static only. It will automatically consider centrifugal force for rotation.
Thankyou ..Sir why doubler plate use in supporting structures...
Elaborate more
@@graspengineering9249 sir, the plate which welded at bottom of supporting legs of structure, also known as base plate
Why we dont weld supporting leg directly to existing structure like stiffner(beam) .
Any resources like pdfs ,book for learning design of supporting frame for different equipments like, H.E ,pump, tanks etc
Pressure vessels are subjected to high pressure and high temperature and direct support is avoid due to high temp gradient.
You can refer pressure vessel standard, TEMA standards for saddle design.
very helpful, was wondering if you could provide the ansys file or the geometry file you used for this modal analysis for practice, thank you in advance
Yes, sure. We will try to upload this geometry on our blogpost like other geometry..www.graspengineering.com/category/design/fea-cad-geometry/
@@graspengineering9249 I would also be interested in the file in order to understand and practise the topic even more. Have you been able to upload them yet?
Can we do 2d rotation analysis
2D rotation means ? You can do 2D, 3D and axisymmetric analysis.
HI I am new to ansys, how do i design a rotor? Where do i refer to?
Hello ! Ansys is analysis software where you can validate your design. Based on your inputs & requirements, you can model that in Design Modeler or Spaceclaim. Please refer our separate playlist for CAD work on channel page.
Hello sir, could you tell me please where you get the stiffness values for bearing connection ? and why you had to turn on coriolis effet ?
We did assumption of bearing stiffness for explanation purpose only. You can refer from ANSYS help or you can refer bearing manufacturer catalogs for stiffness. Rotordynamic equation consist of standard mass, stiffness, damping and rotordynamic term as skew symetric matrices which captures the gyroscopic effect induced by rotational angular velocity, The Coriolis command or effect activates this gyroscopic damping matrix.
@@graspengineering9249 so that means if a system doesn't have the coriolis effect, it's useless to see the campbell diagram ? if not , why ansys provide the diagram only once we turn on coriolis effet ?
Their is option in modal analysis setting for Campbell diagram to turn on and off. You can choose as per your preference, set yes to see Campbell diagram.
@@graspengineering9249 Thank you very much :) Subscribed
@@trungnghiale8286 Welcome !
Hello i need Real dimensions of rotor of reactor
This geometry is used for explanation purpose only. It does not model with exact dimensions.
How to get rid of instability of the mode ???
instability is mainly due to self excitation vibration of rotating structure. eg. bearing characteristics loss & oil seals damage in compressor. We can study this instability by regular monitoring, sensitivity study, etc.
What textbook do you recommend for this subject?
We are expert in FE analysis of rotor dynamics but not in subject, but we suggest go for any handbook.
I didn't understand if rotor is rotating in forward whirl how backward whirl will come clarify this thing and even you didn't explain campbell diagram clearly
Please kindly refer Part1, you will find detail introduction.
hlw sir plzz tell us which work bench would you use for the same problem
Hello, It is latest version (19.0)
@@graspengineering9249 can u help me i have to solve a multi disc system rotating on a common shaft i have to find out its 5 critical speed
@@sarojchaudhary1921 You can perform the model analysis and find out the Campbell diagram, which will give you critical speeds.
Great effort, But I have one question, how we can find the values of K11,K22,K12,K21 and same for C11,C22,C12,C21 ?
Anyone please who can help me?
, thank you in Advance.
You will get from manufacturing catalogue. Check bearing specifications you are using.
Can help me?
How can I find the stiffness characteristics and damping characteristics of my bearing (K11, K22, K12, K21, C11, C22, C12, C21) from the manufacture catalog ?
Hi! Video was very helpful. Can you please share the ansys files via google drive. That would be grateful.
Welcome ! It is quite simple model, we do not have ANSYS model of it. We usually upload CAD Models at our blogpost: www.graspengineering.com/category/design/fea-cad-geometry/
@@graspengineering9249 Kindly upload the CAD geometry. It is not available either. Thankyou
Hey sir, have you ever tried XLRotor to make rotor dynamics simulations?
No. We didn't received any requirement for XL rotor (rotating machinery analysis Inc) rotor-dynamics.
@@graspengineering9249 Do you have a video showing how to find (or calculate) the bearings properties? Like stifness and damping...
@@viniciusgajo1884 No...We haven't yet created videos on bearing simulation.
Hi sir,
Are you in udemy....?
I want your course
Iam impressed on your explanations..
Your teaching is awesome..
I loved your teaching methods, with detailed explanation..
Thank you Punnet for appriciation...
We are not on udemy but we are working on breakthrough coarse, you can subscribe for that once completed.
@@graspengineering9249 Can you Share that Subscription link....?
And I already subscribed your CZcams channel long back..
@@graspengineering9249 I Want your Course documents for practice if possible u can contact me @puneet.nelwale@gmail.com
sir, why use the remote displacement on rotation z ?
We are applying rotation in z hence need to constrained it neither it will show rigid body motion.
but don't we want it to have rotational motion in z? we give it three velocity of rotation!
We are not restricting z motion at impeller. We r providing at shaft ends. We are assuming that ends are constrained in vertical and horizontal directions.
ok，I get it ，thank you so much!
@@graspengineering9249 so the bearing connection helps constrain the ends in vertical and horizontal directions, right? so for me , just need to contrain the translation in Z. why did you contrain the rotational motion too ? and also, what is the difference between displacement and remote displacement option if you didn't change the coordinates of your scope gepmetry ? Thank you in advance for your help
Hello, I am student and I start my way to education. Can you give me your model from this lesson in iges or parasolid?
We might refer impeller from Grabcad library and just model 1D shaft in Design modeler. Please check our blog post for CAD model. We will try to upload here... www.graspengineering.com/category/design/fea-cad-geometry/
Je travail avec ansys workbensh j appliqué un moment et je veux dessiner le diagramme angle de rotation en fonction du moment appliqué
Merci
Hello, for rotor dynamic you can apply different rotational velocity & plot them together with graph & in static simulation you can apply different moments & plot them against time/load cases. But you can not plot moments vs angle of rotation.
can anyone plz tell how to draw a shaft for rotor i dont know plz
Hello Gaurav, Greetings !
You can create 1D or 3D shaft model in design modular. Create coordinate at the center of impeller, do sketching of circle and extrude in required direction.
Then create contact in mechanical between Rotar & Shaft at centre region.
@@graspengineering9249 thax sir
@@GAURAVRANA-yt2cv Welcome !
confluence.cornell.edu/display/SIMULATION/Cantilever+Beam+-+Geometry