Are lower tier CVs as broken as we think they are? - World of Warships
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- čas přidán 8. 05. 2022
- So I was talking to some peeps about CVs and some of them asked me to go play lower (than tier 10) tier CVs, because they believed tier 10 was the issue and at lower tier they're not nearly as big of a menace.
I said alright, truth be told I really did not play tier 4-6-8 in a very long time, I'll go ahead and do just that.
So I picked IJN CVs and played 1 match in all 3 of them.
I admit, these CVs are not as I remember them to be...they're worse.
Enjoy and have fun watching ;)
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Old RTS carriers had an incredibly high skill floor and were by far the most punishing class to play as you could lose your entire arsenal to two CLs hidden behind an island. I miss the old days.
Tried flying with planes like these in War Thunder. Torpedo bombing there is a whole different story: you FEEL the weight on your plane with that heavy torpedo. Takes a while to climb up to high altitudes due to the extra weight and you arent turning your plane this well even without the torpedo.
Also can't fly high then swoop down and drop your torp. If you swoop down from high up, your plane will increase speed drastically and depending on your torpedo's limitations, you cannot drop your torp when you are flying too fast or too high or else it will drown the instant it hits the water. You have to fly low to the water and slow while aiming your shot and weathering AA fire and enemy fighters. Then you drop the torp and have to try to escape with your life.
Neither game is perfect, but it's interesting when you play lots of different ww2 games for new perspectives. Naval aerial bombing warships (using actual naval bombers) in WT feels like a struggle; in WoWS you feel like God's hand over the ocean.
WOWS flight models are a joke. Totally arcade garbage.
And then there's Eagle with 350kts 500m in the air torp drop
Tbh in WT you can just swipe your credit card and circumvent a lot of that soft diffliculty.
WT is a "realistic" approach to an arcade WW2 shooter.
It is by far not realistic in the sense that it depicts actual battle situations correctly, but it is much, much closer to reality than WOWs or WOT will ever be.
That's why i love it. :)
wrong game. this is WoWS.
I remember when US BBs were explained as having good AA. Such a joke now.
even the us cruisers are a joke now, they top aa back in the day now they nerfed them to the ground
WTF are you talking about American ships are pretty much immune to planes Tier 5 and up.
@@angelapolinar5343 not really, I used Indianapolis and still sometime Tier VI CV can fly above without losing the entire squadron after flying over
Texas says hello
@@martinkrebs6943 I heard the old Texas was a no fly zone, but with the post CV rework AA I heard its no longer one
bismarck's AA was built and designed for high performance aircraft in mind it physically had troubletracking and dealing with something so slow flying like the swordfish.
it also had a lot to do with the he rounds just passing through the fabric construction of the planes. the vast majority of the rounds fired never hit anything hard enough to arm them
@@Airtroops83 As well, the Swordfish were able to fly so slow and so close to the surface of the water that the Bismarck's AA guns couldn't physically depress low enough to get a bead on them.
The swordfish attack only succeeded, barely, thanks to the same planes previously accidentally attacking a closer friendly ship the same day.
They realized their magnetic torpedoes weren't working, so on returning to the carrier they switched to contact detonation.
Because the friendly ship was closer, they had time for the second attack. If they had attacked Bismarck that first time, they would have dealt zero damage and not been able to correct that day, and Bismarck would have escaped to France.
@@owlsayssouth - also the torp that broke Bismarck's rudder was aimed to hit the bow. It was a miss that crippled and doomed the ship.
@@lunsmann The entire fight was cursed on both sides. It feel like which side going to get curse less.
Funnily enough, I remember the old RTS style of carrier gameplay having some extremely broken aspects as well. For example, you used to be able to one-shot BBs with unavoidable cross-drops from torpedo bomber squadrons, AP dive bombers could do 35-40k damage on one strike, and a good CV player would find ways to beat all the counterplay and single-handedly annihilate an entire enemy team. Likewise, if a CV player wasn't an absolute god, they were likely the main reason why their team would lose, while the feeling of powerlessness that CV players would have against no-fly zone ships like the Des Moines and Minotaur is something no person playing any game should experience. The class has simply been messed up ever since the beginning; the so-called "good ol' days" weren't actually that good.
Amen
On top of the extremely powerful flooding as well
@@jared7080 That was a problem across anything that could use torpedoes.
CV by design will never be balanced in this game. But rework actually makes them even more unbalanced.
You couldn't one shot anyone if they were next to an AA platform or near the patrol of his own CV's fighters. You could try and lose a squad that doesn't get replenished.
And if there was a ship with DefAA in range, regardless of it's AA output it would fuck up the aiming, e.g. panic on the squads.
I remember when I tried carrier when they were new on Legends, I'd literally just find the DDs and circle them til my team killed them.
Fun and engaging game play.
I remember getting the Kaga in a supercontainer a friend gifted to me.
I played 1 game without ever playing CV ever after rework, I sucked.
Went in and played 4 games with the Ryujo and then 6 games on the shokaku
I watched a Video with Toptier playing Kaga, I then went and play with my Kaga.
I completely Stomped the sh*t out of the enemy team. And I only played 10 games with CV and I'm not an unicum player or a gifted man with videogames. I just avoided AA blobs, learned the basic mechanics and thats it.
this is a short story of about a year ago: I was trying to come back to WoWS after ~6 months to 1 year of not playing (I got bored with it) and was trying my hand at the Japanese Cruiser line and was playing at tier 4. Having no AA and constantly facing 1 - 2 carriers just made me stop playing all together, you have 0 counter play to an enemy who sits at the other side of the map and you can't avoid all the torps / rockets no matter how hard you try.....
Imagine expecting WG to actually balance a game. They have no incentive for that. Quite the opposite. The incentive is to have as broken vehicles as possible to get people to grind or purchase them, and rotate the brokenness so there is always something new to grind or buy. This is what people call powercreep.
Preach!
Its so annoying to watch people continue to demand things WG has already shown conclusively they want do...
@@dclark142002 For me it is more annoying to see WG get more and more deep into the imbalance business model but yeah, you definitely can not expect them to balance the game seeing the incentive system and business model they've built. As long as people pay for premium time and vehicles they just don't care about balance at all, opposite, their goal is to make the games as imbalanced as possible.
At some point people will get bored by the utter bullshit in the games and just stop playing but until then the shekels keep flowing so why would they stop?
War robots did same thing on mobile, 1st year was great then keep adding new bots that totally destroyed previous ones and it took a long time to upgrade said bots unless ya paid, but as long as people pay, they'll continue to do make games like that
@@dclark142002 there is no stopping river flow with arrows. So i say let WG dig their own grave.
It’s easy to tell what is the most op class - kill a dd,sub, cruiser or bb early in the game, team says gg. Kill the CV: MVP to THAT player
IME as someone who has been playing a LOT of submarine recetly: subs are basically helpless if anyone on the enemy team is paying attention and actually engaging. A DD driver who is aggressive and sharp on his rudder is basically guaranteed to kill a sub.
my experience with people yelling about subs is that they are the same people who yell about CVs: it's BB players who want to camp behind a rock the whole game or sail in straight lines the whole game and never come out of spotting scope view.
preach
I started playing WOWs because I was interested in the carrier action in WW2 and got the Langley. I sucked hard, got the Orion, played a loot with it and after 1-1,5 years, I understood the game and moved on to other tiers. End of last year, I gave CVs a try again. This time with Hosho, and even though I sucked with the Langley, I now had enough game experience to utterly crush the enemy teams at T4 with it.
(I suck with Ryujo/Ranger nonetheless)
All in all, I liked the experience, because I learned to line up torpedos with a CV like you did at 8:17 against the Moltke. It's basically a guaranteed hit. I now profit from this knowledge by playing other classes ...
...by avoiding CVs like the plague, you mean? I never play Randoms any more and in Ranked Leave the queue if there's a CV count of 1. This will slowly become the norm for more and more players until, guess what? The game dies.
@@EvoraGT430 Well, you could be right. I used to play WoWs casually, and was thinking of getting back into it, but all this crap with CV's and now Subs... no way am I going to re-install. Having a class of combatant that is so effective, and so hard to counter is really silly. From what I see AA is so ineffective in the game, at this low tier where AA was historically bad anyway. Honestly, it's probably the closest thing to realism in the game, CV's killed off the BB and big cruisers IRL, they'll do it here as well UNLESS they make countering them possible.
I remember when I first played wow on my uncles computer a few years back and being amazed by the rts style of carrier gameplay and then after a while I finally got my first computer, downloaded wow and grinded for the Langley only to find that they reworked the gameplay carriers.
And now imagine what it was like until ... a year or so ago, when Hosho still had a double torpedo drop. Yes, you were forced to return to your ship sooner, but instead of four to five attacks with around 4800 damage, you got two with 9000 or more, if you got it right. The nerf was needed, and is still not really enough.
And the ability to manually set the drops was disgusting. Those poor BBs at tier 4 as they watch 2 sets of torpedo bombers drop at different angles and point blank... no dodging and no hope of safety
@@Dargesh890 there is no Manual drop till you reach tier 6.
Langley, bogue, hosho and zuiho doesn't have Manual drop.
@@silincer5186 this was a nerf in 2017 or so,
@@silincer5186 it used to be able to do manual drops quite a long time ago
@@silincer5186 Bruh how long were you asleep for? Zuiho got REMOVED 3 years go! And there is no such thing as a non-manual drop.
To be honest though he's used to playing cv's and knows how to actually use them normal t4 carrier players aren't that good (Sometimes you get that really good one but they only focus on you the entire game whist ignoring the fact that there team is losing) Edit...The reason Bismarck couldn't deal with the Swordfish is because they flew so low they were almost skimming the water with there wheels so the aa could not aim low enough to hit them infact some of the pilots had to pull up a bit to lose there torpedo's
Lol as a newer player with only a t4 carrier I so often only have like 16k damage 💔
I was lucky enough to get the DREADNOUGHT in a container. I have sailed it four times, each time I face 2 Tier IV CVs. It has ZERO AA GUNS. Not even a guy making rude gestures from the lookout tower. Needless to say its lots of fun sailing the Dreadnought.
I really miss the RTS carriers, wish WG would make the RTS option available so I could strafe players who play CV’s the current way.
Also, don’t forget that with the RTS way, the returning planes could be shot down.
they could also literally one shot ships
sure, but thats literally any ship in the game. DD can one shot ship as well. as can BBs. its not really a fair argument. it was hard to set up, even at T4. i miss being able to deplane a CV...
@@nemoskull2262 You can still mostly 'deplane' CV's. Yes, they get _at least 1 plane,_ but that's a QOL adjustment so Carriers don't seem absolutely useless at the ass end of a game like they used to be during the RTS days. It's not "realistic," but it's also better for the CV player. Because this is a _video game._
@@nemoskull2262 then also complain when new players play a CV and gets deplaned and yr entire team starts getting oneshotted. lmao. there's a reason why they changed to this version.
Remember playing the early battleships wich have 0 AA, carrier could strike me all game and i would shoot down 0 planes fun and engaging.
The biggest issue with CVs IMO is the fact that there's no reason to conserve your resources. Before, carriers knew that they had to ration their aircraft. Now that you can just throw everything into AA and not care.
Objectively false lmao. Any moron who just yeets planes into AA will find themselves either deplaned or in a position that, while still able to deal damage, their ability to exert any type of control or deal any significant damage is neutered.
Flak dodging and picking targets is a skill any CV player must have or they will be useless outside of spotting.
@@shadowninja8011 Finally, someone with sense.
@@shadowninja8011 ya, but tge cooldown is far to less. so whn I play the nakhimov, there is nothing stopping me from losing all my planes along as I get a good drop in. juts 1 run with another type of plane and there you go, my planes are back.
I miss tge old cv, there actually was a challenge.
from cross torping to plane conservation.
it was actually fun
@@johnbenoy7532 your both right and wrong. It’s possible for you to lose a full squadron and not be out of planes for said squadron. Generally every carrier has a 1+2/3 or 1+1/2 squadrons on the deck at any one time, and incremental loses are replaced relatively quickly. However losing an entire squadron squeezes you badly, cause those planes are going to take a HOT minute to replenish.
Also Nakimov or any Soviet carriers is a terrible choice to compare that stat too. Soviets are one and down they will almost never lose more than 2 planes on any given strike, and then don’t have to worry about losing more. Soviet CVs are dumb and need to be reworked, I.e. make them like every other carrier
@@shadowninja8011 the soviet cvs would be balanced if we wnt back to the old system of aircraft carriers. All the other carriers would have the chance to drop 2, maybe even 3 times, Nd be able yo cross drop ppl, while the Russian cos would be putting all the eggs in one basket.
In this meta where your whole flight flies over the ship instead of just the attacking squad, it is best if u can drop your whole ordinance in 1 go.in the old meta, it would be much better.
But if we r going to the old meta, buff the aa on every single ship by an order of magnitude. Also nerf the reload times of the planes of all the carriers.
And while you r at it, increase the reward for shooting down planes and spotting damage.
That will incentive cv players to sort for their team and it would also promote ppl to run full stealth aa builds on their ships to shoot down planes.
The Swordfish apparently were too slow for Bismark AA targeting, causing the guns to fire in front of the planes missing them entirely. Mind blowing indeed.
wasnt it flying too low for then to be able to shoot? i think o might recorded it wrong...
I mean the idea that a single plane carried more than one torpedo and that that torpedo always performed perfectly. Is undeniably mental. If torpedos worked irl as they do in wws it would of been a different war
if i could get a real flight sim with a single plane in exchange for torps that had a failure rate id still love it.
Can you even imagine the amount of raging if dud torpedoes were a mechanic? I've seen torps not work properly in this game anyways, not common, but it can still happen.
And I dunno where you get the one torp per plane rule. AM-1 Mauler, S-9(or was it S-3?)Viking, IL-28, TB2D Skypirate, and BTD-1 Destroyer could all carry more than one torpedo. Wargaming doesn't put extra torpedoes on planes.
Broooo seriously thank you for long vids:) I can peacefully enjoy my meals & before bed time watching your contents👍
Enjoying the extended vid flambino keep them coming please 🙏 😀
Hey Flambass, I have an idea: How about you create a new Account an test the f2p grind in the upcoming economy changes. Would like to see it :)
yeah only for you...
It's nice to see a long video on your channel
well to be fair, flambass, i still consider you one of the best players on the eu server. i have played this game for more than 3 years, got two t10 cv in my inventory and i barely have been able to be half as successfull as you are. so i do think you are the exception rather then the rule
49:21 clevelands for once where pretty nice in killing of planes fast. I used to play the game like 4-5 years ago so bevor carrier rework, and they where awesome in AA. + I played some pretty fun games with friends where i would play a cv with an almost full fighter loadout. First roll was to take the enemys planes out and keeping my 2 mates alive. Second roll scouting for dds. that was acually funny. The biggest joys came after the game when the enemy carriers came crying. And sadly thats the only thing i miss about wows...
To the "can CVs 1 shot people?" i think Hornet may be able to 1 shot bigger DDs with the b25 strike, ive taken 22k in my gumo from them and it wasnt a straight lined up strike.
Yeah CV's are hell to deal with.
I don't even know if it's the worst part, but AA is designed (or redesigned) to always allow the first strike to go through.
What a mess. 🤮
@@Nick-rs5if I don't understand why people get so hung up on this... You get AP overpens on your superstructure whilst angled, you're still going to take *some* damage; even HE shatters on your armour can start fires.
People don't expect ships with good armour to be literally unsinkable, but they expect ships with good AA to be completely impervious to CVs?
You angle against surface ships, you take less damage not no damage. You run fire prevention CO skins and manage your damage con, you take less damage from HE spammed fires, not no damage from fires.
There's lots of valid criticisms of how CVs are currently implemented, including their damage output, but the idea that "just because the community hates them, they should be able to make them completely redundant" strikes me as particularly irrational.
What's next? "I hate getting torpedoed in my Musashi, so I should be able to get 100% torpedo damage reduction on it if I invest the skill points, etc"?
Hosho was nerfed hard, it was a proper beast before that
Really like the longer videos keep them coming
32:25 la única razón por la que obtuvo tanto daño como cv es por qué simplemente se dedicó a atacar a los BBs lentos, con bajo AA o no esquivaban los aviones, algo que cualquiera que sepa apuntar puede lograr
That comment about Bismarck not being able to stop the Swordfish torpedo planes is probably the real life equivalent to this game, because those planes were made of canvas so unless you hit the pilot or the engine, you basically do no damage to the plane
The weather conditions were extremely bad.
They had no clear sight of the attackers.
All the swordfish pilots missed their torpedoes, expect one of them, who dropped his torpedo in a completely shitty angle, more by accident, then by skill and landed it in the rudders of Bismarck.
The glorification of that poor attack is nothing else then propaganda.
Alot of the people I had seen from T4 to T6 hasnt really tried to dodge your attacks. Not saying that CVs arent OP (They are in the hands of a good player) but you also need to take account for those that dont really seems to try to dodge. Honestly, I had seen the game's own AI dodging better from torpedo attacks then some of those players
Also, 99% of players dont have captain even with 10 points at the time they play t4-t6. And playing with such captain is very very very painful. It is still strong, but i‘d not say its OP
Also, most of the ships that was confronted hasnt had good AA. Go to Atlanta or durch cruisers, California and you‘ll know how does it feel to play t6 cv on average. Even Gneisenau can demolish your squadron sometimes.
it stands to reason average dmg on t6 BB is 10-20k higher than that of any CV on t6.
@@Poklonick I know. I dont play against other players, as I do like the PvE stuff more. But I know the pain from T6 CV when Im up against a ship with some good AA. Even as T8 against like a DM is really painful for me
now do this with the other nations too pls, flambass
LOL imagine him trying to play Langley in Randoms
@@angelapolinar5343 KEKW
I miss the old carriers... A, I loved playing air superiority, crippling the enemy carriers and giving my allies safe skies so they didn't have to worry, though I only was doing chip damage compared to strike carrier. I also miss the old Cleveland built for AAA. Carriers literally turned around rather then getting anywhere near me.
Two major things about the Swordfish attack on the Bismarck, 1: it was at night, and 2: the Bismarck had AA designed to shoot faster planes, and the Swordfish were so slow the timing on the AA shells was way off.
OMG that max range torp!!! It was on fumes at the end... might have coasted in!!! LOL
ok, I started watching this hoping Flambass will struggle to get a hit....
nope, turns out it's just me being a potato in every ship out there...
Would a fix for CVs to be always -1 or less of top tier? That tier 11 destroyers, battleships and cruisers are added but there would be no tier 11 CVs?
Sub is easy to spot from the air if he's been at least hit once you can see the oil stain on the water above her
I'm still in the camp of CV's need to be in the game. One of the things that attracted me to the game in the first place was the naval history side of things and we are talking about the time which was the death of the Big Gun Battleship and the rise of the Carrier Task Force. Would the game be more fun hitting the big, fat delete button on CV and giving up? With the way it is now of course it would for the majority of players but that's a big chunk of the Naval History side cut out.
Imo by far the biggest issue with CV in this game is still the amount of spotting they do Lets face it, the average player does it totally by accident on their way to gank their chosen victim. It's also an area where they can actively encourage and reward the "Team" part of what WG insists is a "Team" game. Give the planes a restricted radio range equal to their concealment. They can spot all they want BUT only the friendly surface ships inside that radio range(say 10km from the aircraft) get to see what is being spotted. Everyone else outside that range, treat it like a cyclone. Lit up on the map but not rendered into game. Hell even throw them a bone, maybe let them use fighters as a relay to extend their effective target spotting range back to their fleet. it's not like fighter consumable is being consistently used to protect their team so at least that would take some thought and effort to pull off.
Damage output of CV class is wildly inconsistent ship to ship so they need to stop with the sledge hammer approach of trying to find a one fix for all and go back over them one at a time. Taking the nerfed credit/xp earning off is a must to stand a chance of balancing and have players actually believe them too. They have to be far more transparent with it if they stand a chance of dealing with the bad rep CV's have.
Just my thoughts but these are old ideas that have been fed back to WG sssooooooo many times so, yeah.... maybe we get the Radio range? They did talk about it a while back. Not holding my breathe though
I think if cv has plane limit it would be fair
@@wei270 yes and no. It used to be really punishing to the entire team when they got some halfwit throwing all their planes into a grinder and getting de-planed 5mins in. Then the halfwit would drive their CV Hull to it's death to get to next game not even considering that's points their team really could have done without losing.
Increasing the penalty for throwing planes away could be an option. Increase the time taken to rebuild them maybe? But then that goes into the realm of just not fun to play. Who wants to sit around for 3-4mins waiting for new planes to be available?
@@MoA-Reload... limit plane would be like ships have limit ammo so when you run out of ammo then bad luck
It's a game where ships see further than planes do. If anything the spotting needs to be increased. As it is you can only use bombs against DD and those are so nerfed you usually don't hit even with a perfect drop.
@@Incab then why don't we make every other ship at and only players are carriers
Just today i did 166k in my serov without even having a problem…we still lost cuz my team didnt cap the bases and in the end it was just a enemy sub who i searched the whole map but cannot locate it and the time ran out
The embodiment of the current meta, lol!
Well, WG thinks that giving rockets to WW I era planes is good, but giving AA to ships of that era not good.
About a year ago, there was no MG fire before the rockets would strike so you had a directer strike capability. Also the amining radical was round, not oval which gave IJN CVs a bit of an edge.
So .....I tried the CVs for the first time. I grind Hosho and Ranger ATM. This video really helped me in many ways, although I'd like to see you play the Ranger and Lexington as well at some point. I have some troubles finding what to focus on enhancing with captain skills on different nation's CV (torps, rockets etc). I also won the Reihn and Hermes in containers........I believe the Germans focus on torps, right? But how about the RN CVs? I've placed the same questions on your stream but you never answered so I place it here as well. Thanks
The skills to focus on first are survival skills - the plane HP and Continuous AA damage reduction ones being the two biggest factors in whether or not your planes survive the undodgeable continous AA long enough to get full squadron drop(s) off. Speed is also important, as the less time you spend in the undodgeable continuous AA, the less damage you're taking.
It doesn't matter what nation you're playing - if the squadrons get depleted before they (or the later flights within a squadron) can drop, your damage is going to be junk.
10cp skill is a bit more circumstantial: If you're good at dodging flak, then the flak damage reduction skill becomes less useful - I'd still take it on ships which prioritise AP dive-bombing. The improved bomber speed is useful to improve DPM on ships that mainly want to spam bombers. Naturally the torpedo damage mitigation reduction skill is great for more torp-focussed ships, but is generally solid clear across the board due to torps being reliable farming tools.
Sight stabilisation is one that some ships *can* play around not choosing, but I find it useful for doing HE Divebomb corkscrew drops on DDs; and even on ships with pretty good aiming times, I'm still greedy for being able to throw them around more without the dispersion getting punished.
Aside from that, lowering the torp arming distance is handy for guaranteeing hits on more nimble ships - especially for ships which rely on their torps to counter DDs; improved aircraft servicing speed is important if you're in a CV that is easily deplaned.
German tech-tree line is mainly about solid AP divebombing, although their AP rockets can wreck cruisers circumstantially too. The premium german CVs are a bit funkier in that the T6 has big powerful HE bombs; the Graf Zepp has weird light AP bombs; and the Max Immelman is skip bombs and torps only.
RN CVs have the level bombers as a gimmick, but I've never got much mileage out of them - their ellipse was always too wide (to the point where I found aiming off-centre so that you hit with one "line" of the bombs and the other half get dumped in the sea was more effective than aiming centrally and losing some bombs either side of the target). Their rockets used to be excellent for hunting DDs, but since the aiming nerf for rockets, that's a moot point. Really their converging torps are the only reliable tool I found them to have, so I'd say focus on that.
Here is my take on RTS cv's. I personally suck at RTS games so my cv cap was tier 6-7 with RTS cv's and i enjoyed playing them (Again i suck at rts games but it was a nice break). A lot of my time i focused on strafing and perfecting it and the reason was simple if i cant out play the enemy cv I would switch too a defensive stance and strafe enemy planes as much as I could and I got pretty good at this, too the point where my highest plane kills is still in a RTS cv today. I have a new CV at T10 and the only time I play it is to knock of my snow flake in December.
The holy grail of cv defence use to be a DM or a Mino and now days they are easy damage and taken out with distain. As a CA main prior to CV rework I barely play them these days simply because I hate being a damage farm for CV's, an aggressive wp DM use to be a cv's worst nightmare now it is just free damage for them. (My absolute favourite was when i got dev struck by a haku two games in a row during ranked a couple of seasons ago)
By the way it was a ranger witch was T7 with 64 plane kills.
Nice. I forgot Ranger was T7 back in the RTS days. The highest I got to was Bogue. Good times.
strafing was the reason RTS was deleted in the first place. it was a stupid OP mechanic.
@@nemoskull2262 but you had a choice, damage farm or defend. and since strafing the enemy cv's planes could help your team.
Watching u use this thing makes me realize how shit I am lmao ty u for the good tips on this carrier I was struggling but really paying attention to ur drops helped a lot
No AA at T4, barely effective AA at T5 on crusiers, I k ow how this is gonna play out without even watching.
Effective aa at tier 5? HAHAHA, SOME ships, a select few have decent AA. Their is a reason all the cruisers have Fighter planes.
When you look the information up the bismark was not deseigned or though of having to deal with how slow the swordfish where and there being basicaly wood and paper meant that the high Caliber AA from the bismark with there fuses whent from one side of the swordfish to the other without exploding because they where deseigned for more robust aircraft you can look it up there where multiple reports of swordfish with holes in both sides of the plane as if a bullet had gone through but had not detonated like it would have in a more modern plane it was just bad luck for the bismark that they sent the only planes it would have the greatest problem hiting and actually shooting down besides can somebody confirm it for me but in an earlier fight against I don't know who wasn't the bismark fire control damaged or destroyed
bismark also had problem with roll stabilty, iirc, the gun fire computers had a hard time keeping up with the overly stable roll, the ship was a bit too jerky for the computers to track right. this was more of a hull design flaw than a computer issue iirc.
I have always (at least since the CV rework) thought that lower tier CVs are actually even more broken than they are at high tiers, as a balance to the fact that players have less insight into how to maximize them. I was going to say that they require less skill, but the whole point of CVs at any tier is that they need less skill to have a big impact on the game than other classes of ship.
I don't think any class in WoWs requires skill. As games go it's one of the easier ones to learn. The only thing broken is the experienced player with a high level captain playing low tier in a sad attempt to call it broken. This can be done with many ships and classes, just another CV hate video.
@@quor2243 oh yeah no ship requires skill... Colbert is the best example noobs get devtruck right away and good players average like 200k
@@zane660 Well of course in a tier 10 light cruiser some will get smashed, it happens. They also can put out some nice DPM.
Not sure I buy the average 200k in a light cruiser. Not even sure many if any average that in some of the best BBs in the game.
@@quor2243 light cruisers can do way more damage than bbs
@@quor2243 light cruisers can do way more damage than bbs
Balance would be a pack of subs or destroyers, a couple of cruisers, one battleship, or one aircraft carrier. Basically equivalent displacement.
Flambass: I have to see what a teir 8 cv is like.
Me: Oh dear god, Flamba in Shokaku.......
how good is my Hosho?
I got Kraken 3 times in a row with High Caliber and/or Confederate
I used to do those million miles torp run and I cringe a lot seeing people doing these "till the boundary drop"
I just can't figure out why should one do these.
Playing Haku was so stressful and hard to master in rts. The team with the better cv player usually won now every cv player owns the map.
I wish I had your luck with MM. I can't remember when I wasn't bottom tier vs two Tier higher for three games in a row. But yes even I, as bad as I play can do good dmg in t6 and 8 CV's. Only if I have to play vs +2T I struggle to get good (for me) results.
What's so unexpected. That AA was meant for modern planes. not canvas paintings and wood. shells would pass through and leave clean holes , not having enough time to arm...Plus they were calibrated to intercept modern metal framework planes.
Omg that double torp hit. Lol
The primary reason i decided on maining us ships was because of their aa. Really felt like the aa protection provided another major game impact avenue beyond just damage. Now it feels like my cleveland may as well be shooting spitballs while before it was shooting patriots
I also wanted to try cvs when i learned about the little tech skill where you can escape a bad battle with your fighters by strafing out of it, at the cost of losing a fighter. I only learned about it a few days/weeks before they removed the ability for t4s/t5s to do strafing and manual drops. Since they totally reworked it i dont think i’ve ever wanted to play a cv, beyond the first few days when i just wanted to see what they changed. Just felt way too braindead. Its kinda depressing how badly they butchered the rework
That's crazy, your alter-ego can be heard talking without you even moving your lips
The swordfish were made from paper, they were hit plenty of times, shells and bullets just passed through them.
So let me get this straight:
The class that was most capable in ASW has no answer to Subs in WoWs.
The class that was almost unable to defend against submarines (BBs) actually excell against Subs nor than every other class.
Meanwhile Carriers, which were probably the class of ships most vulnerable to fires, can’t be set afire for longer than 5 seconds. They can tear AA-Cruisers apart like every other ship. And obviously carriers also had large plans producing facilities on bord so they wouldn’t run out on planes.
Seems legit WG. Well done!
I guess I just suck at carriers then. I wonder why I don't see lone ships all the time when I play my CVs
I’m new to WoW - WoT equivalent was artillery and it’s been nerfed to the ground thank god.
CVs absolutely belong in the game but from my limited game play so far, one thing makes zero sense to me.
Fact that you can basically launch unlimited planes and there’s zero penalty for losing all your planes.
Imagine having limited # of planes, and having to repair a depleted squadron (taking time) - then ship AA and formations would actually count for something, and impact a CVS operational power.
I know wild ramblings, what do I know I’m just a tank player!
You don't have unlimited planes as the regen is stopped by the timer. you have a maximum of X amount of planes in the game.
Losing all your planes force you to only launch attack with 1 or 2 planes. things that is generally useless as they will die very fast and wont apply enough dmg to be useful in the battle.
What makes even less sense is how do ships spot further than planes?
My carriers are all the tier 6 ones, and I have to say I cannot replicate what I see here. My planes get instantly wiped out by AA on every attack run. I'm lucky if I get to drop one attack, and most often any such attacks go wildly off course... especially dive bombs. If there's a fraction of a pixel not on the target ship, the bombs will all fall RIGHT there.
Makes me wonder if it's something to do with Captain skills.
Captain skills + camo and I don't know what else. He's got instant aim. I don't see anything in the ship or captain skills that gives you that ability. I play the T8 Lex. Have the Midway but without dropping $$$ it's not playable bog standard. 19 games, 1 kill. I have not had a single dive bomber live long enough to drop let alone hit anything. So just staying at T8.
I think it's very dishonest to put up this vid and try to say this maxed out cv is representative of the class.
The +plane HP and Continuous AA Damage mitigation commander skills are essential. As the reply directly above me points out, it's a little dishonest to take a 19pt commander into a T4 and T6 matches and pretend that's representative.
The Sight Stabilisation skill is very useful, as the improved aiming time makes attack runs far more forgiving of your approach and far more tolerant to micro-corrections once the run is under way. However it *can* be played around by making sure your approach and prediction is good, so that you don't mess up the aim-time by trying to change course too much.
If you're messing up your dispersion a lot, hit the practice room and drop some bombs / torps into the water whilst not moving at all; whilst just using your mouse to fine-tune aim; and whilst using your keyboard to make more dramatic moves. You'll notice that the aim-time differs depending on whether you're jostling the aim during its initial contraction, or if it's recovering from a jostle after it's already contracted to the optimum amount.
I think the time at which you release divebombs also effects dispersion - if you wait until the last second (when the dive timer reaches red) to release the bombs, you'll generally find you're hiting with 2 out of 3 instead of 1 out of 3, although I think the timing might also effect AP penetration. To be honest it's so RNG dependent that it's hard to distinguish game mechanics from superstition.
Found a vid that shows the commander. czcams.com/video/Tkgoc3PbfYA/video.html So these abilities are from some bought or won or legacy or wherever they are getting these captains from abilities.
@@Incab Urm, not sure what your question is.
Commanders gain skills as they level up, they level up as they accrue experience. They get experience the same way that ships gain experience - if you check the end-of-match info panel and go to the XP and credits break-down tab you can see how much your performance earned for you.
There's a different skill-tree for each different ship-type.
You can get a 0-pt commander for free for any ship; or you can use the in-game non-premium silver currency (credits) to get a 3-pt commander, which is inconsequentially cheap.
You can move commanders between tech-tree ships for free to maintain (and continually build) their level, although there is a brief "retraining" period when you put them in a new tech tree ship where they temporarily don't get the benefit of their skills until you've earned a fraction of their current level's XP with them.
It's a core part of how the game works, and one you must've noticed if you've played more than a handful of games and gotten to tier 4 or so.
There's some special commanders (with bonus skills / abilities) in the armory that you can get for coal (another free in-game currency you get mainly from doing the 3 free daily lootboxes), and some more you get from doing in-game campaigns (free mission chains), but not all of these will have skills that benefit CVs, and you can only put them into one tech-tree ship - so it's not typical to see them put into any given CV anyway.
@@Ace42x It's not a question. Just pointing out all these abilities you see in the vids are from special captains. No idea where they come from. Link shows the abilities they have. Not sure why that's unclear.
Flambass...CV Main Confirmed for MrGibbins
How did you get two games where your low tier CV was top tier? Try being tier 6 playing against tier 8, IJN planes evaporate.
problem of MM, not a CV. Try being a T6 cruiser in a T8 match, you will get wrecked much sooner - especially with T8 CV spotting you
ah the tiers where enemy has literally no AA
totally balanced
I must be doing something wrong. I can never make a CV work this well. Granted I never liked the class to begin with. I probably don't even have 100 battles total for CVs. I never get those numbers for citadels. I find the entire class frustrating. Flambass took a squadron in against 2 ships with what looked like decent AA and dropped 3 bombs on 1 ship for 2 cits. I have never seen that in person.
I really wish the CVs worked like air strikes and anti sub drops work. And you had a like a cool down like normal ship artillery. And CVs would spot using a spotting aircraft that would like light up a circle on the map for some period and would have a cool down before it could be used again. I think that mechanic would work better for all ships instead of the current setup for increasing range. But there seem to be a million ideas on how to make the game better and yet we keep playing still.
And Hosho went through a MASSIVE nerf. It was by far the best among the T6 and some T7. The torpedo bombers used to drop 2 each attack...
I think you should have sent this to Jingles' he'd love a t4 carrier replay Hans along with a shokaku plane
I love the Ryujo in ranked. 😍
R.I.P Kraken
Thank you for showing why CVs are despised.
I dunno. When I play CV in T6 I get T8 BBs and cruisers who know enough to travel in groups and I cannot get close to them without losing all my planes to AA. In this video many of the ships were alone and slow. Why can't I get such lucious soft targets?
Depends, the only counterplay to CVS is grouping, but then you give up map presence. So unless the whole team moves together all the time you can find isolated targets
My Brother did 80k dmg and 5 Kills with the Rhein within his first 10 Battles. We were both 300 Battles overall Players 2 Weeks ago, even tho we registrated within Beta times
My real problem with carriers are not that they are op, it is that they are op in the sense that the player who play the carrier can make the whole difference in a game. A good cv player can pretty much decide the outcome of the game, especially when the other team got a potato. When your team got a 34% cv and the other a 60%, you pretty much have lost already. Not always of course, there's always exceptions but often enough. If WG could take the player skill in account during the mm for carriers, I think it would be better.
And we see something like that with submarines, where the experienced player might be the deciding factor in a match. A bad sub player doesn't really affect the game as much as a bad cv player though.
This is an ass argument. _Any_ good player can make a difference in a game.
If the CV on an enemy team is good, then your team _needs to focus down the CV._ Its not brain surgery.
I sometimes feel like CVs should have a ASW plane squad they could use, but then I remember they are already OP as is so that would just make it worse
They'll add automatic helicopters covering a 8km range around the CV. Only for the * tier though.
6:13 That was a blatant kill-steal !
The tier 6 Soviet CV is so over powered. I have had some monster games in it. Can easly rocket plan cruisers for half health a run.
it outruns most dds too hahahah
The last game triggered my inner hate towards matchmaking of lower classes and a reason why I don´t play them really often. Just look at 34:58 :
5 T8 ships (CV, 3BBs, CA), 4 T7 ships (2BBs, CA, DD) and 3 T6 ships. WG things it is perfectly ok, but being the ONLY T6 SURFACE SHIP IN T8 BATTLE IS NOT OK. Because of those 3 T6 "ships" was 1 CV, 1 frickin submarine and just one cruiser.
Enemy Pensacola played quite well and due to xp-bonus managed to top the scoreboard, friendly Graf Spee probably haven´t had such a blast...
Played 12 T6 games on my alt account this week (Sunday and today) 10 of those games was vs T8's. One game was double T8 CV and 6 T8 BB's There was just ONE cruiser on each team - both of us in a lowly T6 (I was in Trento). It was a very tough fight but I did manage to get 42K damage in and scored middle of the result screen - my team lost badly, it was a complete wipeout.
Biggest problem with T4 CVs is the fact that Torps don't rely on RNG so they are the most effective strike for CVs as most players in the game sail in straight lines or don't know how to engage the planes with there AA yes there are some ships with no AA but I can kill alot of planes with ST louis
did Flambass ever mention the fact that u could extend AA range back in RTS CV days?
I fondly remember the old days of USS Texas no fly zones. "A CV on the other team? Oh what ever will we do? Warm up the guns boys, it's hunting season!" Slowly steaming towards CVs to narrow the angles and make them useless or just hanging out with the boys, shooting some skeet :D
That's not saying that I don't agree about CVs always being broken but they were countered before with deplaning and a really high skill floor. Nowadays? Nope.
I still miss old CVs
What about the battle of Manila bay? Homeboy Dewey, not louie, or huey.
"getting the new player experience"
> retrains a level 19 kaptain for a Tier 4 CV
"durability of the biplanes is nuts"
> the dude with all defensive perks under the sun
Nobody should be shocked that Bismarck had issues with Swordfish. 1. Bis had an impressive AA battery for a prewar design. That didn't make it great. 2. Bis was alone. Even late war USN AA relied a great deal on layered defense. 3. The weather was horrible making even seeing the planes very difficult. 4. Prox fuses were not in use so AA needed to make direct hits or have timed fuses
set perfectly. Neither is an easy task for even an experienced crew which Biz didn't have.
-Are lower tier CVs as broken as we think they are?
-He Is litteraly a smurfer player and he go play tier 4 with full Camo + level 21 captain.
Do you really want to understand if the low tier aircraft carriers are broken? Just play them as a player in tier 4 would actually play them!
Been there, done that. Played Hermes and Rhein for a bit, not really any special camos and no max captain. I think the Highest damage amount I ended up with on Hermes was 115k-ish and Rhein I think 80k or 90k though admittingly I didn't pay attention much to it. But that's an amount of damage exceptional for a tier 4, and you really should not be seeing.
Yeah, also given the fact some of the ships you face have litterally no AA and most of the ships that do hardly leave a scratch on your planes? Theyre pretty disgusting bro.
Agree, 6 point captain maximum. But that said, Flambass is still a very good player so the skill factor still sways 90% of the result. You cannot unlearn what you know. Real novices are not playing like Flambass - look at the result screen and where the other CV players were.
I've been playing for less than a year and my average result with tier 4 CV is at most 20k :I
With the Rhein then it is totally impossible to defend against destroyers since Rhein have AP rockets so of you are lucky to hit them the average damage Is 200
Now try that again with a FRESH commander with no skills (or 6 at the most)
The health of those byplanes are just right or could be raised. Higher tier planes health needs to be halved. Just ask the Bismark.
Low tier u get the joy of double cvs every match ya fun and engaging how bout giving cvs a fuel range limit like 20 k then they would acc have to maneuver and put ship in harmes way to be effective
Speaking of carriers I did 17 k with haku rocket planes to a des Moines yesterday in ranked let's just say I won us the match easily and still had full squads at the end
I really like this one.
I once got a 7 sink as a tier 4, I don't understand why people underestimate them?
53m of flambino! Happy days.
So the answer is: YES
Well to be fair tier 6 and 8 can get double up tiered so....that is PAINFUL and shows just how SHIT lower tier AA is when you tier 7 vs tier 8 AA makes such a huge difference with how much HP your planes have.
I'm not against infinite planes but like... the squads should reload only one at a time, and like stupidly stupidly slowly from the reserves you start with so you're not USELESS but you have a reason to not just throw planes at a wall.
As for everything else, just... I mean fuck it, carriers ended big gun naval encounters, they're always going to be broken, or they're going to be unfun.
Servo is beyond broken. did 2 drops with rocket planes on a Ranger, first drop was 30700 damage with 8 citadels. next drop killed him.
I stil lthink that even if the RTS CVs were much more powerful when used correctly the "new" CVs are such a dumb idea.
I actually liked the old CVs and AA at least did something as the planes were limited and the attacks were more powerful but you could do less and every mistake you paid as deplaning up to T7 was very possible
I like the old RTS style as I could manually control my CV while watching what my planes are doing. Mean with the new gameplay, I have to relay on autopilot. Not really great when I see an enemy planes coming in and I do need to manual control my CV to try to dodge the incoming attack. In fairness, it can lock me down as I cant be able to launch planes to counter
@@Danspy501st Not to mention autopilot doesn't know there's a map edge. It'll just put you nose in and your a sitting duck. I like that you have to use autopilot and the damn map has invisible islands on it.
you ever play against Zoup or Sea Lord
nice I use the KearSarge