I failed in academia | The unexplored steps to academic failure!
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- čas přidán 26. 06. 2024
- In this video, I delve deep and explore my three steps to academic failure.
Of course, I do not consider my time in academia as wasted but, as this video will explore, I just wish I was more aware of what I was getting myself into.
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▼ ▽ TIMESTAMPS
0:00 - introduction
1:24 - not wanting to or not knowing how to play the academic game
8:12 - the sunk cost fallacy
15:44 - the outcome: scared and angry
21:08 - where I ended up
24:09 - summary
Let me know in the comments if you have experienced similar feelings and thoughts.
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I have a friend who did his PhD and first postdoc in Oxford. Second postdoc in Cambridge. Published 5 first author papers in his PhD. More in his PostDoc. Two of his supervisors were world renowned in their field. He was becoming known. He was invited to talk at conferences and to chair conference sessions………nobody would give him a fellowship. He now works for a crumby CRO doing work that bores him. He is such a good scientist they promoted him after 6 months on the job, have given him special privileges and told him he is on track to being the company CSO. But he couldn’t get a fellowship. All he ever wanted was his own lab. The system failed him every time. CV not strong enough. He saw the CVs of his competitors. Not as good as his. But still not good enough for academia. Or should I say the nepotism of the system.
The sheer amount of political posturing and BS is sickening. One professor I knew when I was in grad school had his CS grad students doing yard work for him if they wanted to graduate to the point we would make endless karate kid jokes. Also professors wouldn’t pass students thesis defense if they were too good at managing their duties like grading undergrad work and writing papers. Graduation was about 50% actual knowledge and skill and 50% political BS.
Well put. Totally accurate across all levels.
People have to realize that really good is not enough in academia, you have to absolutely crush the competition. My cousin got her PhD in Physics and is now tenured at Berkeley, all she had to do for her PhD thesis was set a new record for lowest temperature ever achieved, on her own, competing against enormous national teams of scientists, and then do novel physics with the experiments her device allowed her to do. My other cousin's wife turned her PhD thesis into a book that won the top prize in her discipline and is now tenured at Princeton. Publishing some nice papers, who cares, no one reads that stuff. You have to dominate. In most disciplines, at the best universities getting a PhD gives one a 12% chance of getting a tenure track position, and a PhD from most universities gives one a 1% or lower chance of tenure track. Doing as well as your grad school cohort is wasting your time if you want to be in academia.
I got my masters and then immediately decided to become a professional oil painter - knowing nothing about it - because it seemed a less stressful prospect
@@tribalypredisposed I don't believe that, that sounds ridiculous.
We could see the sadness in his eyes.
It takes a lot of strength to talk about your failures.
or the systems failures
In failure is when you learn the most, so why not share it with everyone?
Not necessarily his failures. The failures of the system. The system doesn’t want good scientists. It wants the mates of the mates, spouses and boy/girlfriends of the professor. Or whoever is shagging the right person.
Failure is part of the journey. Embrace it.
@@cigdemylmaz1532 I agree with this one. Academia and Research used to be my dream, but over the last year I started to realize it´s a lot of self-promoting, blinding (or lying), and not enough honest science and communication
there are so many ways to leverage a phd into a non-university career. I have turned a phd in cell biology into a fun non-9-5 career in freelance manuscript/grant revision/editing. When you realize that a phd isnt about doing experiments, but rather a way about thinking about a problem and forward thinking you can use it in so many ways
Hey ToothDoc. Seems like you may have some insight. How realistic is it to get some sort of remote PhD work that can pay at least a regular bachelor salary while being located across the globe on place where life is cheaper?
Agreed.
Then why even waste all those years of your life being underpaid for your mental faculties? I noped hard out of research after a research-focused Msc and taught myself software engineering. I make a lot more money than all the struggling PhDs on their temp contracts that I know, for significantly less work. Academia as a whole is a cold, cutthhroat, depressing underpaid field.
This is amazing. I'm trying to do the exact same thing 😍
@toothdoc “leverage” is the most over used word in industry. Makes me cringe internally
I am just starting my PhD adventure in Poland. Here we have to have 1 article for the first 2 years (and it's not obligatory, but it makes things a lot easier). When you have 3-4 articles after 4 years you can put them together into a PhD thesis. My supervisor told me that 1 year is for reading the literature, 2 for developing a concept, and the other 2 for doing research. Polish universities are not high in the rankings, but as you can see they have a healthier approach... After all, to be able to write a publication you need to have something to write about... What matters is quality, not quantity.
German here, 1 year into my engineering doctorate. 1 peer reviewed paper is required to hand in our dissertation. I am expected to need a total of 3.5 years for the entire journey. I had 6 months to hand in a 3-year research schedule, which got approved, and now I have to hand in annual updates (30-ish pages) to my boss/supervisor and that's literally all contact I have to my higher-ups. Additionally, I get paid fairly well (75% position in Germany amounts to 3k before tax and 2k after tax a month). The struggles this guy demonstrates (never watched another video of his) really made me appreciate living in a non-commonwealth country.
First of all: never say *article* - you mean a _paper_ gentle sir
@@Espressonator Journalists write articles, scientists write papers.
@@violentdesire7325 Not wanting to discourage you here, but post PHD I don't see much difference in the german academia vs what he just described in his video. Maybe add a little more nepotism and academic incest into the mix for good measure. Or to put it in German: "Drittmittel sind alles!" ... :-/
@@Espressonator Article reads like a magazine piece whereas paper like a scientific report... no need for us to get confrontational on such a small matter Espressonator ;)
I don't see any failure here, I see a struggle and a successful liberation process. So congratulations and welcome to a happier life!
PhD dropout here. I also feel trapped, scared, and angry. Now doing what I thought was impossible - working outside of academia and much happier!
Most PhDs are useless.
😢feeling stuck in phd want to quit
In academia, the reward for failure is greater than the reward for success. When you fail academia, you get a better paying job that's easier. You're finally free!
Why would that be failure? Its a race to the bottom and the only way to win is not participate at all
Cries in philosophy...
@@zarathustra498 I think the original commenter meants faliure in terms of publishing loads of garbage articles than publishing work that shapes the field, which is an actual success.
@Zara Thustra by "failure" I mean not getting a tenure track job.
Cope
As they say, PhD means permanent head damage. Having been in the academia for over 15 years, I now have generalized anxiety disorder.
Also I have heard pilled higher and deeper
That's a good one! I usually say Pretty Huge Disappointment, but this works too. ;p
in which area ?
as someone who still has time to not do it - would you mind sharing what experiences gave you constant anxiety ?
@@bangnikabang6501 Three key factors: very competitive social environment, financial struggles, and extremely poor work-life balance. To be fair, I most likely had a predisposition to anxiety, and doing a PhD activated it.
I dreamed about being an academia and discovered that it operates a bit like a 1000 PhD-led small businesses seeking funding via publication bulimia. I’m sad it wasn’t as awesome as I imagined but happy to be let in to the club long enough to understand that I didn’t really fit well.
Nice description. Also 'publication bulimia' XD
Lessons on publication buliemia from grad school:
1. A good paper with good search engine optimization (SEO) is worth 10 bad papers with bad SEO in terms of bibliometrics.
2. A truely bad paper with inspired SEO is often worth 3 good papers with good SEO and takes a tenth the time and resources (I am not a practitioner of this art, but I have witnessed one of its masters at work).
O_O
Too many candidates not enough positions. If there was a real entrepreneurial nature to the field many would strike out on their own.
Your channel deserves a much bigger audience. Thank you, Andy.
I appreciate that! Thank you for your support!
You described so clearly a lot of the journey I went through myself. Thank you. It makes me feel less alone. You're not just a great science communicator, you're a great emotional communicator.
Thank you, Hartley. You are certainly not alone. There are many of us who have left and felt these thing, I'm sure!
@@DrAndyStapleton you missed the boat entirely. 17 Apollo missions filmed zero stars. Calculus isn't used anywhere in computer science programing or engineering. And building 7 didn't kill itself. And no virus has ever been shown to cause reinfection of human cells in a lab. And all the ice core samples have live bacteria going back 400,000 heating and cooling cycles, which means the bacteria changes the gas. It's a zombie apocalypse. And most of the history is fake too. Universites are fake. It's all nonsense. You're a mad hatter. You're all mad hatters. It's all fake nonsense
@@DrAndyStapleton Late to the party - but - your honesty about your situation and how you behaved is refreshing.
IMO - the bad behavior you confessed wasn't really immature since it is the standard behavior any person goes through when they get in the position you found yourself in.
If your behavior was immature, then people aren't mature.
You took the words out of my mouth.
@@danieloladele1433 were you a PhD student
Thank you so much for this video. Your message applies to so many areas of life; not just academia. 1. Realize you are in a game. 2. Realize when it’s time to cut your losses and go. 3. Realize scared is normal, but don’t ever let them see you sweat. I think you are a tremendous success!
As an industry scientist, I have much more academic freedom than nearly any professor I know.
What industry?
Electron microscopy
Are you doing cryoEM or are you working in semi conductors?
same here I am an industrial pharmacist and can explore many many ideas and compounds have better equipment too. the sad part is most of what I discover if deemed unprofitable will not be chased and you can say goodbye to the Nobel you dreamed of as a child. I only hate the fact that I have to wait to publish things for many years.
not possible - a tenured professor will always have more freedom
I am in the last year of my PhD and I absolutely know that I can not play this game. This is why I’m working so hard to get into the industry. Bless you for making this video.
And in the industry we will welcome you to a whole new level of the same game 😀. Party life is over 😉.
If someone possesses the capacity to self-reflect like this, they are more honest and decent than 90% of people. If they can share it with the world in this unabashed way, they are truly one in a million. Good on you, you are extremely wise for your age, and I'm really pleased that your story has a happy ending. Subscribed.
Worked at the University of Chicago as an analyst right out of graduate school. I was astounded by the smugness, the intense competition, and over abundance of power driven people. Toxic awful culture I was more than happy to run from. Even worse it’s all wrapped in the most insufferable mirage of positivity and progressive values - such a contradiction
Somebody tell the U. of Chicago School of Economics that they're progressive- LOL
@@hektor6766 The Econ and Law departments are conservative, but the university is as liberal as most.
As a current Uchicago undergrad I was wondering if you would have done anything differently. Realize im a few years away but im interested.
@@shadowslayer3112 No, it was my fault. I was too naive and inappropriately propped up academics as "above" the worst aspects of career ambition. It was a good learning experience. But, since writing that I found out I'm high functioning autistic, which I think heavily flavors my spicy opinion.
You're telling me Progressives are giant egomaniacs that think that they should run the world and tell everyone else what to do? I'm shocked.
I’ve been in Academia for 35 years (after grad school) and am 55. About to get myself assessed for ADHD. Whatever the outcome of that, I’m strongly of the opinion that academia = lots of mostly undiagnosed neurodivergent people trying to pass as neurotypical in a system designed by, and for, performative narcissists. How’s that for a definition of hell? Not blaming the ND Nation at all, btw. That’s all about masking and surviving … or not. You’re heroes. And maybe I’m one too.
It’s a struggle between the the hardheaded narcissists vs the perceptive autists. Right now I guess the former are overtaking academia like you mentioned, in this age of “tolerance” 😅. I especially noticed this after getting my psychology degree recently, feeling that it wouldn’t be smart for me to pursue it further. Good luck with your diagnosis.
I am about the same age, but quit 15 years ago. Still a lot of time in academia. Good luck. Trust me: your skills are needed in many places.
hahahahah; what an absolute marvelous summary!
As a performative narcissist myself, I sadly have to agree.
@@slothmode3590 Psychology has a replication crisis and that goes for Social Science and the broader humanities and arts. There is a massive amount of complete guff published, much of it by activists, but also driven by the need to publish per se.
Life is so hard. People love to say, ‘Don’t let anyone steal your dreams.’ But you have so little control over many aspects and factors. Life is just exhausting.
Get a grip. Does this guy seem like he failed in an objective sense? Yes, failed to get some prestigious job. Look at the generations previous to ours or to parts of the world where there's real hardship. "Life is so hard.." Yeah, it was for my grandpa, who was a kid during world war 2, then their possessions were taken by the Soviets. Several siblings died, had to work the fields etc. If your dream is "I'm gonna be the top dog" then yes, you set yourself up for failure. But I say it is a great success to spend years working on and studying the field you love. But, but, why am I not a superstar professor?? Because you're not the main character.
I feel you, I finished high school in 2022 but still cant go to college, I feel like everyday that passes I'm losing more and mora any chance I had left of going to the colleges I wanted, I worked so hard but still life happens, my father has been sick since 2021 and I cant leave my mother and him, life does ruin your plans and change your future against your will.. I felt so powerless, only this year I'm a bit less depressed and get less sad when I look up and see everyone I knew so further in life than me; my first language is portuguese so I'm sorry if the english is weird
I really just wanted to give my full potential on everything I love but I cant and its not my fault, I hope to go to college next year
I remember being a kid, and thinking that my parents were the biggest authority in the universe. As I got older, I realized that my parents were actually just small cogs in a larger society, and all of their effort pushing me to get good grades, pursue various activities, and so on was not a power trip, but rather just their earnest attempt to teach me how to survive in the larger, less kind world.
I now feel a similar pattern when it comes to my graduate program. I now see that my graduate and postdoc advisors, who always had high expectations and could sometimes seem unreasonably stern, were actually also just small cogs in a larger world. They were not fighting me, but those currents we both found ourselves in, but that I was not privy to because they shielded their students from the “business” side of things.
Now that I’ve been out for awhile, I can see what they were doing and it was, once again, raising me to be ready to fend for myself in the wider unforgiving world.
The academic system, starting from your first teachers who are your parents or guardians, through grade school, through undergraduate and graduate education, into your postdoc and even beyond, is a series of people shielding you from the cruel world, and preparing you to survive in it. As you get older, the shield is weaker, and the preparation is harsher. One day, finally, you’re all you have to rely on, and it’s up to you to realize whether it is enough.
it's always up to you, and if don't have any idea where you're going...well it's just your problem.
I recently accepted an assistant prof engineering position at a US R1 university. Theres a lot of truth in this and all your videos. Learning these truths early will save ppl a lot of time, money and heart ache. Thanks for the video, glad you found a meaningful and impactful calling!
This is a very honest and refreshing take. I'm no academic but work in industry in a STEM field. It's also not uncommon to have your entire identity wrapped up in your job for the purposes of ego and external validation. I've been there and it made me miserable doing something I didn't enjoy to please others. Do what fulfills you - life is too short to live on someone else's terms.
That was really brutally honest. It takes courage to accept your failures and move on.
This is a terrific video with great insights! The game of academia is turning towards generating research impact (at least in where I work). Guess what - much of which is still about hitting the right figures and playing the game right. It's important for people wanting to be in academia know this dark side of the game early on because I've seen people doing PhD wanting to change the world (in their own ways). Not that this is a bad thing, but when this idealism meets with the game of the academic system, it is easy to end up harboring fear and anger! Thanks for this video again and I actually recommended some of your other videos to people who sought my opinion about doing a PhD. This way, you made a far greater impact than the academic system sees it.
The impact game...don´t get me started....Maybe introduction of the infamous Impact factor has deteriorated science like nothing else, because it got quickly adopted for purposes it was never intended for, and is patently unfit to serve.
Quick reminder: The Impact Factor was invented by a librarian as a tool he could calculate and sell to publishers for them to more accurately estimate the volume of their next issue, i.e., how many copies they should order to be printed. That´s it. That´s all it was ever good for.
It does not say anything about the scientific quality of one particular issue of the journal, nor about the quality of a single publication, and certainly not about the competence of an author, but that´s what funding and hiring boards use it for, instead of actually reading the resumees and CVs, because they usually are also scientists who are themselves under pressure to teach and publish like crazy, and don´t get paid for being a board member. And so insanity begets insanity.
I feel you mate. I am a German scientist, if you count history as a science, and I am working in academia for 10 years now. Did my doctorate, tought 50+ courses, published 20 papers and 2 books (one monographie, one edited volume) and raised funding for 2 conferences and some other stuff. Since 5 years it dawns on me that even after my habilitation (2nd book) I wont have any chances. I see colleagues being invited for talks and being considered for tenured jobs. My contract lasts for another 3 years. Since 2 years now I am searching for another "career" to follow after I will be kicked out. But this has one good thing: you can do whatever you want and don't have to research what is fancy but what interests you.
May I ask, how hard is it to get tenure in the humanities?
@@stevemiddleton5278 I can only speak for Ancient History Germany. We have about 100 positions with tenure, nearly 80 of them require a habilitation, a second book, usually about a vastly different subject than the dissertation was about. Then teaching and of course, successfull fundraising. And you have 12 years time, after that, it is prohibited by law for universities to offer another contract than a permanent one. But there are only these 80 of these. So in the end it is a numbers game. I think about 20% of all PhDs get a position to work on a habilitation and about 30% of these get a tenured position. So 70% of those who worked for 12 years are forced to leave academia. Surely not everyone can become professor, but it still is very frustrating. In addtion to that, in Germany, women a pushed significantly. In every interview there is a equal opportunities officer who only speaks in behalf of women. And of course the usual nepotism.
@@spackomcspack7103 kann nur raten: spring raus. Ich war 12 Jahre in der Universitätsmedizin, mehr Ausbeutung und Schlangengrube geht nicht, der Idealismus wird gnadenlos ausgenutzt. 2017 war meine Katharsis und ich hab gekündigt.. Ich verdiene jetzt 3 mal so viel und bin frei, kanns nur empfehlen (wobei ich die Bedingungen in Deinem Fach nicht kenne)
Kann alles unterstreichen, was du schreibst. Als Mann kannst du mittlerweile eine akademische Laufbahn vergessen, erst recht, wenn du weder schwul noch irgendwie Quotenmigrant (wie ich) bist und auch keine sonstigen Beziehungen hast. Ich hab die Laufbahn auch beendet, weil mir früh dämmerte, daß ein Doktorat letztlich mein Einkommen um 3-4 Jahre nach hinten verschiebt und sonst nichts. Die Erleuchtung hatte ich im Puff, als mir der Zuhälter erzählte, er habe in St. Gallen promoviert und es bereut, weil er an der Uni keine Aussichten hatte. Jetzt schreibe ich Bücher, die ich will, verdiene meinen Lebensunterhalt steuerfrei mit Onlinepoker und unterrichte nebenher. Diese Drecksgesellschaft kriegt genau die genialen Akademi*ker:in_nen, die sie selbst fördert. Ich weiß nicht, auf welche Epoche du spezialisiert bist, aber wenn du es schaffen willst, gebe ich dir einen ernstgemeinten Rat: Schreib ein Paper über homosexuelle Fellatiotechniken im alten Rom oder Transen-Arschfick bei den Griechen. Wenn du denkst, ich scherze, schau dir mal die Dissertationen an der Uni Cambridge an: Durchsetzt mit solchem Bockmist. Fingern im Mittelalter und all so Müll. Und zieh dir 'n Rock an, nenn dich Lisa und guck genervt drein, dann haste auch die Ollenbeauftragte auf deiner Seite. Früher mußte man den Arm zum Führergruß heben, heute Rock tragen, gendern und über Lesbenthemen jammern. Viel Glück!
@@Rammbock 😆 Dann muss ich da wohl mal reinschauen, bei Cambridge.
I loved the thing you said "failure is not permanent if we try something else afterward". I am in a situation reconsidering whether continuing my PhD or leaving it for good. I love to do research but something meaningful, something deep and applicable. But, I found the fact that PIs are trying to publish and publish anything even garbage, absurd. This is crazy!! This is insult to science soul. This is insult to humanity dignity. I can't accept this.
@Vajihe: Yes! You are correct about publishing " garbage"... As a faculty member "misfit", I witnessed numbers of instances of journal articles churned out for survival... blaa, blaaa...
Be a scientist...they can never take this away from you... even if you are out of academia. I am a "scientist" first and foremost....
Me too but I can't decide whether will i lose sth worthwhile by continuing my further stufy or just lose my time doing some random worthless work
I also experienced this, but I quit waaay early in my failed academic career. What you said about having the badge of honour on being smart resonates so well with me. I quit, because I couldn’t stand the politics and frankly, backstabbing that was going on. As a millennial I also feel that the “everyone is special” non-sense that was rampant when we were little kids failed me quite a lot. It resulted in a very painful identity crisis in my twenties after I had finished all my education and went from being a brilliant student to a lacking experience and real skills young professional who didn’t like their job for which they studied for 8 years.
I'm slighly older but the transition from college to work was nevertheless a shock to my system. I can only conclude that the former gave me a false sense of being special and I wonder if that is something, in part, deliberately cultivated by these institutions. I went from a prestigious and hallowed institution to a rather mundane industry job where people who weren't particularly smart treated me like a know-nothing. It was a humbling experience neccesery for my development. As you say, one observes adults engaged in pedagogy issue the most outlandish flattery to their wards. I recently heard one educator proclaim to his students that they were the greatest generation ever, for example.
@@nighttrain1236 I agree, I now see that its not an issue with my generation necessarily. Just a hard transition to adulthood.
You are a gifted and authentic person and I hope your true words are listened to. Most Ph.D. programs are of little value outside of academia which is an abysmal career path. I feel that most tenured professors are sadly very unethical and would not be able to get away with being so dishonest to their charges in other professions. There is an exploitation of idealism which is especially offensive. This exploitation occurs in many professions but the ultimate rewards in academia are so meager that the behavior of the academic establishment is singularly unconscionable.
I remember how I started to study physics in University in Germany in 2019. I remember the first day at the University. All the new students where gathered in the biggest lecture hall. And the director of the university gave us a very powerful speech about how we are now part of the academic world, how we are now part of the intellectual elite of society, that is going to solve all the big problems humanity is solving. It was extremely powerful, we all felt like the smartest guys in the world, and we felt honoured to be part of the academic world. But as the months went on, I not only realised that physics was not the right major for me, but I became disillusioned with the academic world. I started to realise that it’s really all about publish or perish, that your reputation is all that matters. And I started to realise that this was not what I wanted. I wanted to devote my energy to making the world a better place, not to improving my reputation among other scientists. So I ended up discontinuing my studies of Physics after two semesters and leaving the University, to study Engineering in a different town at a University of Applied Sciences. So my goal is no longer having a doctor or even professor title and being in some big field of science, but to end up in the development department of some big tech-company where I will develop new technology that will benefit mankind.
As a physics undergraduate, I can relate. I paid a price with my physical & mental health, social life and much more. It wasn't worth it and now I'm thinking about applied science that directly serves humanity and can pay my bills. I don't plan to spend my life cooped up in a lab for years on end just to publish papers that less than 100 people will read.
+ I will add that physics as a subject is wonderful and it taught me so many valuable things such as discipline and methodically problem solving. However, the lifestyle of a physicist and academia wasn't for me.
Congrats! You find a better route for your life. I am being stuck here in academia, and cant get out.
All if that is just dreams. I hope you have not built your character around those dreams. I hope you are driven to do the best you can do and if you do not reach those elite levels that you are still happy with what you achieve.
@@Art-is-craft You're right, your job should never be all you care about. I have plenty of other things in my life besides engineering.
I am literally thanking myyself for googling 'failures in academia' and coming across this video. What you are describing is really the situation of academia. I am currently going through the same dilemma and I think your video and advices will certainly help me take decision on time and also dare to leave if I feel this is not working! You spoke your heart out and I felt like I was talking there about myself. Hats off to your boldness to come out and say it. You don't know how much this will help all of us! Best regards and wishes....
Same!
When I was in law school (late '90s), the open hostility among the faculty professors- like a civil war, was a turn off to us as students. The "university" was changing, and the new "superstar" professors who brought in cash and media attention were taking over the traditional legal scholars. The naked politics in an institution of higher learning was depressing.
In Academia most people are alone and lost between expectations and how to fullfill them. The ones that seemed to have no troubles in my mind where the ones that could really connect with the supervisors, other superiors or the field of work in general. These people knew exactly what they wanted and where to get it, like they were using the system and not vice versa. Me being the only student in my family I would have loved to have someone taking me by the hand and showing me the wonders of research and Academia. Instead I left after Master degree kind of ashamed and broken, when all my family was telling me how proud they are because of me. I am still torn on that.
I feel you, I'm the only one in my family doing any sort of graduate study, still in my masters and everyday I'm questioning my decision, it's exactly like what you said, I don't see any good in my work but my family thinks I'm something superior, weeping in the shower has been a habit by now, I just want to graduate and never come back to this~~
@@crystaldew1993 I also had some dark thoughts back then, being stuck in the wrong team in university with very low motivation to struggle through this and seemingly no chance to improve the situation. If you can find someone to talk to, someone who understands your situation, another student in your department or a counceler for such matters for example, than just chat a bit with these persons about your problems. This helped me to get through this hard time, mostly because I realized that I am not the only one. And after university I easily found new tasks to work on. Turned out that I might have been a bad student, feeling like an imposter when graduading with not much more knowledge than before, embarrissing myself in front of the experts while trying to defend my thesis, BUT I am also a good and much needed worker in my job after university. When I look back nowadays on this period in my life I feel like I accomplished something. Not because I somehow got my degree, but because I went through this mill called academia with a much deeper understanding of myself and insights into "things" that you cannot get when everything runs smooth.
I agree, and I did a PhD and two post docs. ☹️
Amazing analysis.. Have spend 12 years in university medicine.. In the german system are at least 3 bottlenecks before reaching the top, I failed in Nr. 2..good thing is in medicine the parachute brings at least much more income, I earn almost 3 times as much as back then.. Helps overcoming the bitterness and rage...however, sometimes comes back, I had 17 publications, 3 top journals (JAMA, archives of general psychiatry and American journal of psychiatry), all written of course while full working in the clinic 60-80hrs/week plus weekends or nights, destroyed my relationship because I was never at home, academic medicine is explotation of idealism of young MD's and the system is..ok. I have to stop here and relax before the bitterness comes back...
Well explained! I was considering phd even after having a difficult masters. But these points remainds me why I left school after masters. Thank you
With your help to people around the world (like me) with your videos, you actually prove that you are a true hero and a mentor like nobody else. Thank you Andy for all your effort for this channel, one of the biggest fans here.
Ouch! Your brutal honestly is a wake-up call for so many naive students. Really good to know this upfront!
Brilliant video! I feel like you have spoken so many thoughts I have had swirling around in my head since starting my PhD and seeing academia close up. Thank you for your insights and candidness.
Being a PhD myself I can deeply resonate with your words! These experience definitely help me think better about career plan and overall development. Thanks again!
I am a junior faculty with tt position. I have been developing this depression worse and worse along with the years since mid of my phd. I thought its gonna be over once i graduate with the phd. But with applying jobs, doing overload teaching (5-6 per semester), doing publications, i am so anxious, depressed, and non-motivated. To do this tt job, i have to live across the country away from my partner and my furbabies. I am so torn with these many different sub-jobs with one small job paycheck. I constantly feel so fatigue. With some unpleasant teaching moments, I feel I am acting up as you mentioned in the video. I dont think i have ever had a passion with academia, teaching or writing. I let myself being pushed with the waves of academic others to where I am today. I am thinking so hard these days if, how, when I should just walk out of academic. But like you said in the video, I am feeling so helpless, trapped, and angry. I am so scared that I would lose all my network, sources, and friends the moment I walk out, esp as an international individual. I am not sure what I should do next and what will be my next career. Thanks for your video to offer us these insights and reflections of yourself that usually got covered up by academia.
Go to the furbabies and take care of them. Try to make a living another way. It is not worth it like this! (btw I am in the same situation :P)
One thing I’ve always thought that in grad school - I’ve never seen a place that made people feel so bad intentionally. It’s like driving people into depression through bad treatment so they don’t realize they are brilliant/hard workers and look around and realize they have other options.
You totally understood it! That is exactly what they are trying to do.
@@zohramartini9425 It’s the definition of an abusive relationship. Walk away and you realize how valuable you actually are.
@@davidmuzia814 Yes exactly but like many abusive relationships it can be hard to walk away due to doubts, shame and guilt.
The education system in many countries are like that and there is little to no way to escape unfortunately...
Very transparent. I truly appreciate you putting out these experiences. I do know that it can be difficult at times. But every experience and insight of yours is proving immensely helpful to me and many others. Thank you, Andy.
The 3 minute unedited “where I ended up segment” is so so amazing. You can really tell he’s speaking from his heart. No editing at all on that segment. And it’s just pure.
You deserve so many more views. You’re helping so many people.
I left academia nearly 9 years ago after seeing PhD students / post-docs working at night (legit talking 2-3 am here) made me realize that this was nothing for me since it would legit ruin me to not have a semblance of a normal wake / sleep schedule. This with the constant pressure of publishing and clearly seeing what you said about the money and let's not even mention how prevalent cheating is in academics and research.
I too failed after 8 years of faculty in major university... did not publish enough, nor played the faculty games. I suffered several months of depression but then landed a wonderful job where I could apply my professional expertise. I have much in common with this man.... Nobody warned me and I feel a bit betrayed by my doctoral advisors and faculty. Yes, publish or perish, play the games, bring in money, rtc...so true.
P.S. I loved many aspects of academia and made many wonderful people.... loved the students. But on the whole, I was a square block tried to fit in a round hole.
apply the squeeze theorem
In my experience, one of the hardest parts is letting go of the aspects you really miss. For me, years after I left academia because I didn't really have a choice at this point, that still hurts. Sure, you can find aspects of it in other jobs. But often, those are kind of more humble and less interesting versions of what you found appealing in academia, and that's also something you have to negotiate.
Not to worry, I am friends with a Ph. D who has done three articles and co-edited a book on discovering and cataloguing new methodologies in tribal research around West Africa. They've created an interactive learning environment, published multiple articles while teaching, and secured over two million in funding for their research. The University STILL keeps them listed as a yearly-contract adjunct professor with little to no space in moving upwards. Even those who are doing massive amounts of research are feeling this squeeze.
do you have a doctoral degree?
@@alcatraz2010 Yes.
Thank you for your honesty. All graduate students should be required to watch this video. I faced a similar decision in graduate school and rather than stay in for the PhD, I took an MS degree leading to a job with a first rate engineering company. It was the right choice for me. I stayed with that company for 15 years, while learning far more than I would have in academia, and ended my career by starting my own small company. In truth, both I and the engineering company had burned out at that point. My startup never became the next Apple or Tesla, but I had more freedom and I regained my self respect. (different story for another time)
I recently worked with a small engineering company that had some young 20-somethings who'd gone down the road of engineering apprenticeships. They were far more mature and capable than some of the young engineering graduates that I've worked with in other companies.
Thank you, Andy, for sharing all of this. Sunk cost fallacy is a huge thing in how a lot of people make decisions - and it is used to persuade you to stay in certain situations as well. I have heard that so many times when I wanted to quit a job or place. It is so hard for us to quit anything, even if it makes us miserable. I have, however, never regretted quitting anything, and it has always led to new and better things. Thank you for being so open about the game that is academia, I relate very much to your thoughts on evil industry and frustration with the academic system, too.
I was the first member of my family to earn a Ph.D, and I'm convinced that the reason I succeed in that regard is because 1) I was a hard worker to distract me from the fact that 2) I'm comfortable with toxic relationships. I never agreed with the whole publish-or-perish mindset, so now I teach for a community college. I don't have to worry about grants or research or any other nonsense anymore, and I'm much happier for it.
Thank you for your transparency. You are my number one PhD CZcams influencer. I am from Jamaica by the way. I have not started my PhD journey but completed my masters and I have entered higher academia as an adjunct lecturer and for the past year it has been an eye opener that it not what it appears to be. Nevertheless, I do enjoy teaching but I despise the politics and how it sucks the life out of great teachers and scientist like yourself who really care about the quality of work you do and the students learning. As I listen to you I realize it not just the 'sunk cost fallacy' that impacts those who work in higher academia. One of the main culprits is moral injury but is talked about less. Moral injury is defined as the 'anguish that occurs in response to moral adversity'. In other words, 'there is a sense that someone knows the right thing to do but cannot do so because the situation is out of control'. Resulting in intense anger, guilt, shame and serious psychological issues e.g. depression/suicidal thoughts/career sabotage. You did not fail brother. The system just cannot handel a passionate and genuine person who have a level of academic integrity and standard of excellence.I am glad you got out of that toxic culture and on a path of healing.Just remember your PhD expertise is now impacting people all over the world including me from Jamaica. That does not sound like failure to me at all. Thanks for being brave to talk about failures it reveals true strength.
Great comment!
Thank you for sharing that. I believe I had this same experience but in the field of law.
Hope you're doing well now.
Hi from Kingston
PhD
Lecturer here lol
Wow. You bared your soul here… Thank you for your service to future academics and non-academics.
This is one of the most unswervingly honest and emotionally intelligent self-reflections I've seen. Thanks so much for sharing, Andy!
I think you missed a major part of this which is that very few (if any) people outside the PhD sphere of things can really understand HOW you feel like failure- to them its a lot like "You have a PhD gosh you must FEEL so successful" etc
After my defence, I just felt exhausted, empty, a shell of myself. That very day, I didn´t feel like partying at all, I plastered a smile onto my face, politely waited until everyone had drank their fizzy wine and eaten some salad and sandwiches, packed up and went home. There are things and feelings...it´s useless trying to tell your partner or family what´s going on with you. You can´t really relate if you haven´t been through it.
Too many people build their ego around a set of fantasies.
The whole "quantity over quality" thing is something I am feeling 100% right now. I am currently doing my masters in computational fluid dynamics and we are asked to write so many reports. There are simply too many assignments to do for me to do a good job on any one of them. It's frustrating, because I really love the subject, and would love to spend hours poring over textbooks and other papers to write a really high quality report, but I simply don't have the time.
Have you had a chance to play with dynamic meshing algorithms? Is your work mostly in Fortran/c++ or something else?
@@gilian2587 I am mostly an OpenFOAM user. Thus far I have made all my meshes more or less manually, either with OpenFOAM's inbuilt blockMeshDict or using Pointwise.
@@KillianDefaoite c++, then -- in that case. Very nice. Thanks for responding. : )
@@gilian2587 No, I don't know any C++. I just know how to use the openfoam software package. I do know some Fortran though.
I'm glad i jumped out of academia when i did. I finished my PhD near the end of the pandemic and had interviews within the public sector the week i graduated.
Easily your best video to date. Honest, powerful and compelling. Thanks for this.
Thank you for sharing this! I can tell it was really painful for you but you’re in a much better place now. Young aspiring academics need to hear this before they experience the fear and anger you did or at least recognise it in themselves if they’re experiencing these feelings.
This is the best video I've seen on this channel, so personal, honest and eye-revealing. Being a Master's student now, hearing all this was incredible immersion into the world of academia one certainly does not hear about often while doing undergrad or Master's. On another hand, it really is reassuring to see how it's totally okay not to know what you want to do with your life by your twenties and that it's okay to try and make mistakes. Again, a really special, personal video; thank you for making it.
Andy! you are such a great and wonderful person and I did one of the greatest and honest episodes on the podcast last year, as people said here you are reaching way more people than when you were in academia, and contribute to many people through your amazing videos.
thank you for being so open and vulnerable with us about your journey Andy..... as a dental school dropout I resonate with your feelings about the sunk cost fallacy and not realizing sooner that I should've taken a leap of faith
Aww this is a perfect story of becoming honest with yourself and that the paths in our lives are far more complicated sometimes than we might think
I have sent your channel to five of my friends and family member. Your ability to tell a story objectively is astounding. 😁
I'm so impressed and grateful for your raw honesty and vulnerability 🙏 Thank you so much for sharing your story with us and your reflections. I am currently doing my Master's, am a practicing visual artist and healthcare worker. I can genuinely relate and felt the anger/fear/sadness in all area's. It has thaught me so much about myself tough and about where I "want" to fit in instead of where I need to. Our strengths can be seen as a weakness in certain circles, but are a superpower in others. We grow and despite it being a slow process sometimes it is so very valuable for our future endeavours 🙏☺️ Something to be very proud of! PHD or not. Wishing you all the very best! Your content genuinely helped me in understanding the bigger picture. Thank you 🙏
man kudos on your honesty, which is something rare to see on channels these days.
You are not alone. My trip to the ditch started very early, in my freshman year, when I failed to be appropriately subservient. I failed to understand the same things you mention in this video and it cost me ten years of my life and left me with nothing. The University of South Carolina sucks.
I very much identify with how you feel about all of this. I escaped academia by being able to program. I think that escape hatch is used by many people.
It worked for me.
Thank you very much for sharing your story so candidly: I know it takes a lot of courage to talk about our weak points in public. I was so impressed with what you said, and the way you said it, that I am going to show this video to any student that tells me they want to pursue an academic career. Thank you again!
Thanks for sharing! It's great that you found your way to sharing your experience on CZcams. I feel similarly and have a strengthened resolve to take a break after my PhD to see where I want to go next.
Thank you so much for opening up and sharing your experiences with such authenticity. Everything you said resonated so much with me and is going to help me deteremine whether or not i want to pursue my PhD.
Personal story time:
While not as high up in the academic totem pole (I was a Master's graduate student at the time), I feel what you're trying to say. When I first started my graduate education, I went in there starry eyed and kinda hopeful/optimistic (though in hindsight my mindset was wrong about what I wanted from graduate school, I can be self-critical too) about what I was going to study. It was a couple of months in that department, I fell deep into the 'publish or perish' situation. In tandem, I also got involved with a lot of the academic politics and unfortunately ended up on the loosing side of that battle. In less than a year, I went from a happy newcomer into a graduate student with severe depression, where my mind went to very dark places. And while I should have quite very early, I kept on grinding along because of both the 'sunken cost fallacy' and because I wanted to make both my peers and my parents proud and respect me (no one wants to be labeled a failure after all). Eventually, I brought my grades up and put in my resignation and dropped out of the program. For a few years I was drifting around, taking up odd technician jobs in my field but with help from my family I was able to get up on my feet and complete my graduate education.
Again a bit lower on the academic totem-pole, but I really feel the pain here.
That was intense, Thanks andy for helping us face the stark truths !
Wow did this ring a few bells... I went through stages 1 and 2 exactly as you described them, and was lucky enough to get out before it got to stage 3. Thanks for the candor in this video; hopefully it'll encourage others to get out in time.
Thanks for this video, sir. You put a lot of things into words that I've had trouble saying to myself for the past few years finishing up my PhD and moving into a postdoc.
Glad I could help
I do appreciate your content very much, and the fact that youtube has just randomly suggested this to me (good youtube).
I did never get my PhD done but i relate to a lot you say here and in other videos. The idea of academia to me as a child and later teen was, that it was about learning, discovering new things, being part of science. There was a huge schock when i went to university and realized, that half of my peers didnt have the same burning passion for research as i did.
I think i did mediocre, but never great. And i believe that is because i never fit in. I admit that i had my burnouts, and that i maybe just aint cut out to deal with all that stress.
However, im certain part of my failure was lack of support and understanding of the social aspects. Like you, i never figured how the "game" works, nor did i care to participate.
I realized way too late on, that if you simply did your thing, you were never good enough. Professors had their favourites who they pushed and supported, and not only so because they were smarter or more talented. It was a lot of favourism and a lot of making it harder for people who didnt had connections.
My time at uni was mostly solitude, with a lot of learning and digging into books, or spending hours in the lab by myself. I liked to read up on topics, and i think i did well enough in the lab too. However, i been told i never wrote a sufficient enough conclusion and i had no help to learn how exactly to improve on this parts.
The reason why i didnt chase the phD was mostly due to financial reasons. It paid poorly, and i felt like i was not appreciated. I love science and academia, but not the people there or how the system works. Its about making content, not about actually making discoveries. Also the reason above. I appearantly never knew how to write down the things i have done, in a way that would suffice.
I worked in labs before, wasnt paid great, and found the work to be rather boring but unchallenging. Doing PCRs all day is fine, and i could convince myself i was helping people and my work mattered; but it didnt really pay me enough for me to justify staying and it didnt engage me enough to make me want to stay.
Now i work in pharma and i do still miss the labwork, the projects, the digging into genes and molecules. I really do miss it. And im sad that this isnt what my life is about.
However, i found a place where im appreciated, paid properly and where i can still partake in science, educate myself, and convince myself that my work benefits research.
I also initially wanted to go into science communication, because i love graphic design and reading papers and books, so i hoped to help make visuals or texts.
I applied for a few positions but they didnt take me, and i ended up where i am now. I can still use my passions here as well. And who knows what i end up doing in a few decades.
Some failures are opportunities. The only thing i wished, was for someone to tell me all of this before i started so i had made an educated decision years ago.
Thank you for your honesty. My classmates, teachers and even parents refused to discuss reality like this.
Wow, thank you for this video! I wish we spoke more about these issues in the academic career so that it will be more obvious before people step on this road.
This is a must-watch insight for every student that aspires to get that academia position without knowing how the game works. Hats off to you for sharing your adventure and exposing your feelings for the greater good.
I can't thank you enough for this video. Your story is almost word for word what I'm going through. It's so beyond messed up. Almost nobody understands when I try to vent about it, and here you are thoroughly validating my experience. Thabk you so so so much. I'm on the verge of making a scene and you've stopped me in my tracks. I need to GTFO NOW.
I'm currently considering whether I want to do my PhD or not, and this is the content that people like me really need. Honest content about what might lie ahead.
Thank you so much for telling your story :)
I love your honesty mate - your videos really need to be seen by so many more people.
Thank you so much for sharing your story. I'm (hopefully) in the last year of my Phd, and trying to figure out the next step.
You're a brilliant communicator, I'm sure you'll help thousands of students and researchers on their journey. You make a difference! More than many supervisors do btw!
Thank you for putting so much effort into this channel 😊
It doesn’t matter what endeavor you are undertaking, if it involves other people you have to play the game.
You join academia (or whatever the path is you may choose) it doesn’t join you.
I served as enlisted soldier on the Army as a young man. It was a great real world experience because it made me realize that there’s a difference between “stated values” (talking the talk) and “operating values” (walking the walk).
To understand the game, you need to understand the difference and how it applies to your chosen field.
You seem to be self reflecting and capable of learning from your mistakes. If it becomes a habit, there’s a word for it: wisdom.
Thank you for bravely sharing your story.
The framework of the journey you've described is far more universal than just academia. I can literally plug my life experience into the very same storyline. The shared critical factors are, a system that's not in your favor, corporatocracy, and of course, the pursuit of money being the unspoken but only rule that counts.
At 51, I find myself beginning anew-all battle-scarred & shellshocked, but with valuable insights & experience.
Be well, everyone.
This is all so true- thank you for making this video. In fact, I finished my doctoral studies in2010; I am so NOT a game player- so this explains what happened!! Finally- the answer! Much appreciation.
This is so incredibly on point. Precisely my experience too, but in philosophy. Hence this applies across fields.
Bro , I couldn’t agree more with the feeling of being a “cog in the machine “, you really hit the spot with the sunk cost fallacy. Very helpful videos , thank you.
Brutally honest, informative, and... wise I would say. Loved the video, well done.
It mustn't have been easy to come to terms with something you've invested so much of your life in. Thank you for your candor and sharing your experiences!
Scared, angry, and trapped.
Depressed , filled with anxiety, having panic attacks.
You are a great success. You’ve learned a huge amount about yourself.
You got out alive.
Thank you for your perspective. I think academia is a culty multilevel marketing scheme- I was misled and ended up pursuing master's in a poorly progressing field. I didn't recognize what the game was until my advising professor started asking me about doing a PhD, which is when I left the field. Don't be too hard on yourself. The culture of academia can tend to be emotionally abusive and often does not help graduates to learn to function in outside careers
The anger bit is very true, I’ve seen this in a lot of people (myself included). Beware the anger trap, all you young PhDs out there. Nothing good comes from it.
Thank you so much for your honesty and your encouraging words. I handed in my notice last week and will be leaving academia in 3 months. I definitely became scared and angry, feeling trapped etc., and I definitely brought into the sunk cost fallacy. Finally a part of me took the leap of faith, but the other part has been quite anxious since, wracked with those societal expectations you were talking about. Your words have given me greater courage and for that I am really thankful. All the best buddy x
Thanks for posting all these videos and that you are so honest about how you felt leaving academia. I left academia myself about a decade ago now and I wish all the content that you posted had been available back then. The struggle is real and I think that although people do not necessarily experience the same in the same situations, some of the emotional ride similar.
"Being angry at a big ol' system is as futile as the War on Drugs."
These words just detonated in my mind like nothing else ever has.
where in the video did he say this if you dont mind?
@@zadedtwork it's just at 23:35. Really loved that sentiment.
In comparing an individual fighting against the academic system to the war on drugs, I think I'm confused here: does he mean to say that it's as futile as as individual fighting the war on drugs? or the government trying crack down on drugs to no end? I mean I think I get his point but I guess I found this bit to be perplexing the more I thought about it. Kind of a weird comparison IMO.
@@magmacrunch I think your first intuition is right: I heard that comment as meaning that to invest emotional, mental, and physical energy in response to the faults and failures of any one system -- in this case, academia -- is as futile as embarking on a campaign to rid society of drugs, which is a vice that it will never willingly commit itself to eliminating, be it because it feels it's powerless to eliminate, or because it doesn't really want to. In my mind, the people who are most qualified to reform academia are academics themselves, but given all the incentives and obstacles, they don't. This is how I interpreted it, anyways.
It's a bit awkward as a comparison since there are other things going on with the so called "war on drugs," such as it being used as a vehicle for mass systemized racism for incarcinating people of minorities by planting sterotypes onto groups of them and utilizing the sterotype and paranoia to help fuel fear to utilize as justification to suspect people of those groups. I suppose it still fits as a comparison even including all that, but... oh boy is that a loaded comparison...
Was great to hear somebody so honest. Thank you for this video
Thank you thank you thank you for this heartfelt genuine video. I really admire and appreciate that you recorded and published this
Thank you for your insightful observations and honesty about your journey. To be this honest to yourself and to people who watch your videos needs a lot of courage. I really appreciate and respect that. You are doing an amazing job of helping people.
Thanks, I just saw this. I was in that position 20 years ago. I did learn what the game was in the 2nd half of my phd, my advisor had me write tons of funding proposals, publish, etc. In the end, he said I should go into academia (another metric is how many of their students become professors elsewhere). I completely understood the game. I got my phd and went right into industry. He asked me why, I just said I know how its done, he said that would help me a lot, and I just replied that's not a game I like to play, so I went to industry, and I'm much happier, should have done that after a masters.
Thank you very much Andy, for this video. It's been a real eye-opener.
For a number of years i thought it was only me who was going mad at the system. When I broke away and decided FIRMLY on a new path in life, i went into sadness/depression because i couldn't find any employment for 12 months (all the Agencies kept asking for work-experience within previous 5 years, or they kept sending me academic jobs (because that's what they saw on my CV and thought was best fit for me). I really struggled, but i'm finally over it.
Then today I saw your video and I'd like you to know that you're not alone.
Sh!t happens. We now got less years to earn the same amount of money as our "less educated" friends and family have amassed. But that's life.
I learnt it the hard way... but better late than never. 🤷🏻♂️
And thanks for the video. All the best.
I'm in the exact situation as you, but in the field of law. Thank you for sharing that.
Thanks for your insights. Your experience resonates with my own departure from academia.
Thank you for this frank video and reminder!!!
When you talked about #1, it felt like a train hit me as I could not find the correct words to express. Thank you Andy Stapleton!!!
I feel this. I left academia waaaay earlier in the process, part of the way into my masters, when I realised how toxic the environment would be for me personally. I'm glad I did, but both school and uni were all about aiming for the elite institutions and becoming specialist and "being special" as you put it, and to be honest I'm a few years into my corporate job and still feeling lost.
When I was a PhD student and a fresh postdoc I didn't believe what I was told how difficult to get a faculty job. Now, I am in my 7th year of postdocs. I have nature and cell first author papers, but I just couldn't get a faculty job. Just feel exhausted.
You’ve covered every factor I could conceive of and more, great vid!
Thank you for this video. I needed to hear this badly. I appreciate your honesty.