Bardcore & Neo-Medieval vs Actual Medieval Music
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- čas přidán 24. 07. 2024
- Sources:
Ian Pittaway's excellent articles on Medieval music found on his blog:
earlymusicmuse.com/emm-blog-i...
Organum Duplum aux 12ème et 13ème siècles, Alban Thomas, academia.edu/resource/work/84...
Organum, Encyclopedia Britannica, www.britannica.com/art/organum
The Ancient Art of Organum: • The Ancient Art of Org...
"The Sound of Medieval Song, Ornamentation and Vocal Style According to the Treatises"
Timothy J. McGee, Latin translations by Randall A. Rosenfeld
"Ornamental" Neumes and Early Notation" Timothy J McGee
scholarship.claremont.edu/cgi...
“Microtones and neumes”, Leo Lousberg:
www.medieval.eu/microtones-an...
“Microtones as rhetorical tools”, Leo Lousberg
www.academia.edu/27388625/160...
“Microtones according to Augustine” Leo Lousberg
www.academia.edu/44336775/MIC...
Hyeronimus de Moravia: Ornamentation and Exegesis in Gregorian, Old Roman, and Byzantine Chant: academia.edu/resource/work/85...
"On Microtones in Gregorian Chant," Ted Krasnicki: academia.edu/resource/work/10...
00:00 Intro
03:10 Disclaimers
06:29 Tonality : Modern Western Theory
19:06 Modality : Medieval Music Theory
33:08 Medieval Harmony
46:00 The Psychology of Bardcore - Hudba
CLARIFICATIONS:
On the usage of the terms "Bardcore" and "Neo-Medieval," those are not the exact same term denoting the same concept as many have noted in the comments.
Bardcore: covers of modern songs in a style that "sounds" medieval to the layperson, using instruments that "sound" medieval to the layperson, but the instruments are usually modern folk ones, and more importantly, the entire cover is fundamentally modern and uses modern tonal music theory. Bardcore is covers of modern music using, well, modern music, only in a way that is seemingly medieval to the modern person.
Neo-Medieval: bands that play either songs written down in the Middle-Ages or original songs that evoke a medieval theme, using modern tonal practices, and not using historically accurate practices.
Whilst they're distinct styles, in the specific context of this video, they're the same. Both are medieval-themed music that uses the modern tonal system. I absolutely had to include Bardcore in this discussion, because a LOT of people genuinely believe that Bardcore means rendering modern songs using Medieval historical practice, whereas it's absolutely not the case. When you're listening to a Bardcore rendition of Despacito, you are *not* hearing what the song would have been had it been written in the Middle-Ages. All you're listening to is a modern rendition using sounds that evoke the Middle-Ages to a modern audience but aren't actually medieval.
RECOMMENDATIONS OF HISTORICALLY INFORMED MEDIEVAL MUSIC:
Firstly, I recommend the excellent channel Musica Medievale, the owner of the channel has for years gathered a library of historically informed musical reconstructions by estimable ensembles.
czcams.com/video/mF5-r7kGlBU/video.htmlsi=3WSRFDxTSaUdZ-S_
Secondly, my own playlist of Medieval Music has a library of historically informed performances. Be sure to read the pinned comments for extra info.
Jordi Savall:
czcams.com/video/GAVAgFPmzy0/video.htmlsi=tveOcyyxx4cm7c2r
Ensemble Peregrina:
czcams.com/video/6a3PsrjkoLM/video.htmlsi=mjdAqblioIygsir7
Toronto Consort:
czcams.com/channels/WpV_A-2WJNoAkxXIqHajOg.html?si=CGhdFVzwFLaN1nOp
Ensemble Organum:
czcams.com/video/2YSCgKsvUeA/video.htmlsi=K_zc2Fezh99uLz0_
Arte Factum:
czcams.com/video/ohI9tpCQJ3A/video.htmlsi=hCYmovXB3yMds8z9
Waverly Consort:
czcams.com/video/mwRdBA3tUK0/video.htmlsi=djSYfxc6gTCPocRf
Misericordia:
czcams.com/play/OLAK5uy_kXAiTIkAzvM7k2mO3AqbxD4wQr_YA4NGI.html&si=8dJSSkGhJ749Bl3X
Oni Wytars Ensemble:
czcams.com/video/rwBqq90J2H8/video.htmlsi=VCwGGEAK_Eb7T_-l
Ensemble Venance Fortunat:
czcams.com/video/kwmRiWB-9Ak/video.htmlsi=mxbu71TMB6E01nI_
Sources:
Ian Pittaway's excellent articles on Medieval music found on his blog:
earlymusicmuse.com/emm-blog-index/
Organum Duplum aux 12ème et 13ème siècles, Alban Thomas, academia.edu/resource/work/84526550
Organum, Encyclopedia Britannica, www.britannica.com/art/organum
The Ancient Art of Organum: czcams.com/video/N37SWKrUz0w/video.html
"The Sound of Medieval Song, Ornamentation and Vocal Style According to the Treatises"
Timothy J. McGee, Latin translations by Randall A. Rosenfeld
"Ornamental" Neumes and Early Notation" Timothy J McGee
scholarship.claremont.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1168&context=ppr
“Microtones and neumes”, Leo Lousberg:
www.medieval.eu/microtones-and-neumes/amp/
“Microtones as rhetorical tools”, Leo Lousberg
www.academia.edu/27388625/160729_Microtones_as_rhetorical_tools_pdf
“Microtones according to Augustine” Leo Lousberg
www.academia.edu/44336775/MICROTONES_ACCORDING_TO_AUGUSTINE_NEUMES_SEMIOTICS_AND_RHETORIC_IN_ROMANO_FRANKISH_LITURGICAL_CHANT_Volume_II
Hyeronimus de Moravia: Ornamentation and Exegesis in Gregorian, Old Roman, and Byzantine Chant: academia.edu/resource/work/853498
"On Microtones in Gregorian Chant," Ted Krasnicki: academia.edu/resource/work/109141625
00:00 Intro
03:10 Disclaimers
06:29 Tonality : Modern Western Theory
19:06 Modality : Medieval Music Theory
33:08 Medieval Harmony
46:00 The Psychology of Bardcore
Im so glad you mentioned Oni Wytars. I love love LOOOOVE their music, especially the From Byzantium to Andalusia album
I would also add ensemble theatrum instrumentorum
Ensemble für frühe musik aus augsburg
Studio der fruhen musik
Ensemble obsidienne
Ensemble Annonymus
Ensemble Micrologus
Ensemble Ioculatores
New Orleans musica de camera
Decameron/Lviv minstrels
Ensemble chomiciamento de gioia
Grupo Sema
And if you don't care about th artist but his work, new London consort
And probably the most important ensemble for early music: Clemenic Consort.
@@Kujowiak I mention one of his songs in the video; his music is 99% extremely accurate in terms of instrumentation and understanding of modality, but he often underlines the whole thing with a modern tonal harmonic progression, which is anachronistic.
I'd call his music a fusion of actual, well researched Medieval sensibilities with modern harmony rather than full on Neo-Medieval that's entirely modern.
I'd like to compliment you on the visually striking backgrounds you chose. Excellent job on that front, and a nice compliment to what you're saying.
What do you think about christodoulos halaris reconstructions?
As a Serb, I must say I was offended by some of your comments. We don't drive Dacias while listening to polyphonic music and going to war, we do that in battered Zastavas and Fiats, thank you very much.
While listening to turbofolk? 🤔
@@Pavlos_Charalambous Yes.
Zastava made cars?
@@NvrchFotia yes they did. Look at Wikipedia "Zastava automobiles" for a list of models made (most were just fiat models but they also made the iconic yugos)
@@NvrchFotiapeople are equally surprised to know Škoda made guns.
That kitten is gonna have a music degree in less than a year mark my words
I think he already has one
I had to rewind and listen again because all I could do was 😍 when I saw the kitty.
Come for the music theory, stay for the kitten.
Can't wait until future historians find jazz chord sheets and recreate them by banging triads on a keyboard
And straight eighths.
@@t3hgr8gabbo And joyously clapping along on the 1 and the 3.
Haha you know it!
The African American human man randomly decorates his allotted section of highlighted performance with syncopated tertian ordered tones from the tritonally juxtaposed dominant from the 7-34 Forte subset. They often call this “gettin stank” or “stankin in up”.
Imagine the bewilderment of some poor archeologist, 500 years in the future, in a completly different cultural paradigm, uncovering a pressing of Ornette Coleman's The Shape of Jazz to Come... And trying to understand anything about it.
The careful editing to maximally feature an adorable kitten was appreciated.
Ummm, he/she stole the show though, Farya. It was very difficult to stay focused on your (wonderful and clear) explanations!
If people would just call it "fantasy music" we wouldn't have much of an issue with false authenticity.
that gives an entirely different expectation, to me i'd expect epic orchestral arrangement or such things if a song was described as "fantasy"
"bardcore" is already not claiming to be "medieval", let's not split hairs and instead stick with what already works
@@10upstudios Agreed. "Bardcore" clearly states that it's a modern spin
Medieval Fantasy music
So make it MEDIEVAL, and make it fit in your epic fantasy setting, without making it inaccurate depiction of Medieval European music, and actually make it medieval, not boring elegant 1700 and 1800s piano violin piece…
Just call it a bard and a satyr jamming in the fey realms. That’s what most of it sounds like anyway
@@10upstudios Then youre expectations are wrong. Fantasy does not require epic orchestras.
Now I just need to find a band that plays modern music using medieval music theory
I dont, that would be horrible. Medival people would streight up have no way to do anything close to "Mega Dimension Neptunia V-II OST 09 Will Be Venus"
You’d have to find a band that thinks Horizontally without regard for modern conventions of tonal harmony. That would be fun
Same. We need to make death metal based on Medieval music theory.
@@cat_city2009 A metal band is definitely going to be the first band to try something like this. It’d be nice if the band wasn’t strictly metal because I’m not always in the mood for metal. I’ve always really liked those bands that don’t conform to a single genre and just make whatever sounds good to them
john maus probably did some song like that. loves talking about modality of medieval music, played a song by oswald von wolkenstein at any rate (now i need to check if its accurate)
Bardcore is at its best when it's remixing modern music. That angry birds remix fucking slaps.
My favourite is czcams.com/video/Nx-x_1lIXh4/video.html
Metallica and System of a Down bardcore is sick af🤘
Agreed, Vox Vulgaris has an amazing bardcore version of Spanish Bombs by The Clash. Bardpunk. It's so good.
This guy loves flexing his cat. Cant blame him
That cat is actually the mind behind the videos; Farya has merely been allowed to transmit the knowledge that our feline master has acquired.
@@davidross2004 so... the cat is flexing him?
@@wuketuke6601 A quick study you are, young grasshopper.
In Germany, "Bardcore" music tends to be referred to "Market music". Which makes sense because it is what you usually hear on a "Medieval market", which is what they call their ren faires.
This is interesting to explore
And a lot of what is played at US renfaires is taken from "traditional" Irish and British-Isle music that has its origins in the mid 1800s...
@@Nala15-Artist Also, we have a vivid (and I think the biggest) neo-medieval music scene in Germany (Mittelalterszene) which uses medieval instruments and often medieval texts and themes, but of course also arranged in harmonic ways, not modal. It usually blends the old instruments and texts/melodies with modern elements, on purpose, like directly mixing it with rock music, electric guitars, a modern drum set, or non-medieval classic/folk instruments like violins and cello. I think a lot it rather comes from Irish folk from the last centuries, and of course rock/metal music. Also, even electronic dance music can be applied. Genres would be Medieval Rock / Folk Rock, Folk Metal, Pagan Folk / Neo Folk and subgenres (like Pirate Folk, which shows that most of those styles obviously don't take themselves seriously). It goes together with a totally different interpretation of the middle ages compared to both how it really was or how it is perceived in romantic fairytales and children's books: more pagan (people on those festivals like war paint and drink mead out of horns), more fantasy, more "gothic" (including black dresses and Steampunk/Victorian style) which makes sense knowing that scene is part of that "dark scene" and closely related to the neo-pagan, gothic and metal community.
Interestingly enough, from my experience - unlike with ren faires - the Irish bouzouki is almost non-existent in that neo-medieval music scene, maybe because the artists know it's not medieval and rather like to use real medieval and renaissance instruments together with obviously modern ones (like nyckelharpa plus electric guitar) or maybe because it just doesn't look and sound cool enough. After all, the rule of cool definitely dominates those genres.
Plays beautifully; sings divinely; looks likes a model.
This kitten is a triple threat.
as someone born in the 1500s im finally glad someone is talking about the innacuracies of bardcore
How so? In the 1500s the medieval period of music had given way to early Renaissance, as far as I know. But well, since you were born in the 1500s you probably know better…
If that's the only thing that annoys you about the 21st century, I think you're doing very well 😊
Hey there, fellow immortal! Hope you're doing well
@@super---. ahoy
Oh boy, another analysis of perception vs reality of historical-inspired modern music
It's what Farya's best at!
And we LOVE it!
Another Farya analysis to add to my collection
Can't wait to be told what a fool I've been my entire life
@@Fakeslimshady Same! Live and learn...
58:12 the same is when someone tries to represent USSR aesthetic with red and yellow colours, while in reality they used mostly white letters on red background. Like when someone paints a red star on a T34-72 when in reality the red army would almost always use just a white text, and the red stars were drawn on the planes.
So the image of a period that happened not so far ago is already changing, despite so many pictures and videos remaining.
@@Itoyokofan Except the current Russians who are putting red stars on T34-85’s…
@@allangibson8494 if it's during victory parades, then red stars and white wheels are part of the parade camo. If it's in media, well the soviet/russian media is just as stupid in this matter as others.
(Also there's virtually no T34-72 survived, so in soviet films you see T34-84 regardless of the year of the war depicted, which adds to the scewed perspective).
@@allangibson8494I don't know what the other guy said since that comment doesn't exist anymore, but the current russians put red stars on their tanks because red star was the symbol of the Russian army until 2014 and it's much easier to reproduce than the new design. They are doing it because the symbol holds meaning, not because they are trying to cosplay as soviets.
@@helgenlane Flying the old red Soviet flag on the tank while attacking the Ukraine is harder to explain away but was quite common in the early days of the war.
@@allangibson8494 its easy to explain if you understand what larping is tbh
Ah, yes, potatoes, that most medieval of crops.
they were. for the inca :D
Goes great with a nice medieval goulash with paprikas.
Yea, the most basic way to get medivalness is to undue the columbian exchange.
@@Kuhmuhnistische_Partei it's a dumb joke. dont overthink it.
Potatoes, like chocolate, are an experimental crop from the New World. Both are just a passing fad; neither is likely to catch on.
I think there is a general popular confusion between the early modern and medieval periods. A lot of features of "bardcore" music such as the harmonic arrangements and instruments like the hurdy gurdy (in its modern form) became more popular in the early modern period. (not to mention things like witch hunts were early modern not medieval).
Its an interesting question why so much of the modern conception of the medieval age is actually that of the early modern period. I'd have to guess it would be because a lot of features of modern western culture got started in the early modern period and so cultural memory projects features of that period back into the medieval period. The real middle ages I think feel very alien to modern westerners whereas the renaissance feels ancient but somehow still recognizable.
Very good observation...
I wonder also whether it may not have something to do with a certain nostalgia for the Middle Ages already present in the early modern period, like Emperor Maximilian styling himself "The Last Knight", and the fact that largely ceremonial tourney armour from that period often is the mental image people will have of armour _because that's the sort of armour you're most likely to find as decoration in old stately houses._ A sort of... survivorship bias?
@@beth12svist yes, fantastic point
this!!! historian Bret Devereaux talked about the same thing in his series How It Wasn’t: Game of Thrones and the Middle Ages, on his blog A Collection of Unmitigated Pedantry. You see the same thing there: cultural trappings of the early modern period used to convey an idea of the middle ages, and he illustrates this with a picture of plate armor and barding for mounted knights from c. 1540, which looks "medieval" to the untrained eye, but is in fact from the early modern period
A notion I picked up from Dr. Eleanor Janega: Whig history is the persistent but erroneous belief that the arc of history always climbs towards prosperity, enlightenment, and technological, social, and ethical advancement. If the Renaissance was better than the Middle Ages, and the Enlightenment was better than the Renaissance, and our time is better than the Enlightenment, then clearly things are destined to improve and we don't have to vote or organize or march in the streets to make things better, it will happen anyway. But if we acknowledge the Early Modern Period was far more violent, superstitious, imperialist and authoritarian than the High Middle Ages, that means acknowledging our society could backslide from the relative peace and prosperity of the post-WWII or post-Cold War eras into war, economic decline, and authoritarianism, and that terrifies people.
@@digitaljanus While that's an important point to make, I don't think it has much to do with the question of why people confuse the art of different periods. 🙂
how am i supposed to focus on medieval music theory when the scrunkliest kitten i've ever seen is On The Screen
Agreed. To minimize distraction at least put a tiny bard's hat on the kitty. Oh wait… ❤
The irish bouzouki is the duduk of “medieval music”
underrated comment
which is kind of sad...both are beautiful instruments...in their right contexts.
I wanted to play the Irish bouzouki for a church band, as i was playing the accordion and recorder already; and I was told it sounded "gaulish" !
@turnipsociety706 wel technically that makes sense gaul = gaels
@@turnipsociety706 😳
My biggest takeaway from this is that Quebecois have the same expectation of European French accents denoting old history as Americans have with British English accents.
Smith Island English and Scots have more in common than early modern/premodern English forms than anything spoken in the House of Lords
Yes, that was a bit of a surprise!
which makes total sense because american southern accents are most cited as being the american fossil of colonial british english and i've always thought quebecois french sounds twangy like an american southern accent
Farya is The Man. He is right. We started using the term nu-medieval a short while back to clarify that what we do isn't real medieval music. It may use medieval instruments and explore some medieval rhythms and modes - but it is totally modern music. I'd also observe that most people use the term Bardcore to mean covers of modern pop tunes with folk or medieval instruments. I'd differentiate it from neo-medieval or nu-medieval music.
Nu-med
Thank you for mentioning the Irish Sean Nòs! This is an aspect of tradition that almost completely gets overlooked, and most of the world is unaware of real Irish music, in comparison to Stage Irish caricatures
My favourite part of medieval music is when... KITTY!!!
Same, friend. Same.
That!
But I'm not so sure when it comes to visual medieval art involving cats.
cattvs
𝖄𝖊𝖆, 𝖙𝖔 𝖑𝖎𝖘𝖙𝖊𝖓 𝕴 𝖉𝖎𝖉 𝖙𝖗𝖞𝖊,
𝕭𝖚𝖙 𝖆 𝖈𝖆𝖙 𝖒𝖎𝖘𝖑𝖊𝖉 𝖒𝖞𝖓𝖊 𝖊𝖞𝖊
I still remember when Bardcore saw a surge of popularity a few years ago on CZcams, almost like a meme. My favorites were anime OP renditions.
My fave is bardcore covers of modern pop songs. No pretentions of authenticity, just pure Ren Fest vibes.
Loved the bardcore cover of the 90s Mortal Kombat movie theme where one of the members of The Immortals/Lords of Acid came into the comment section to express his appreciation for the cover.
I honestly thought that's all that bardcore was - covers of modern pop songs with a medieval vibe, therefore inherently slightly silly. I didn't know bardcore could also be taken seriously and mistaken for historically accurate music.
@@kralevic3297 yea same i thought everybody understood that it was meant to be silly
what do you mean "almost like" a meme - a lot of the songs covered in the recent surge were explicitly meme songs
you may think this is an ethnomusicology channel, but in fact it is the kitten who is the real star of the show
While not medieval I really want to recommend a channel that is an excellent resource on early (mostly European) music and music theory - mainly Renaissance - called Early Music Sources run by Elam Rotem. Really excellent content !
I respect the attitude of valuing historical authenticity without condemning any cases of deliberate lack of it.
I love to imagine the kitten is the target audience for this and he's talking at it the entire time
At the beginning of the video, I was prepared for you to say the second piece was the “bard-core” one and was pleasantly surprised, because I liked the latter way more.
Me too, but then I was like, wait a minute, the second one has ornaments.
I love your content because I can point to the screen and yell "WAKE UP SHEEPLE!" about something as niche and relatively innocuous as most people having incorrect impressions about 1200s European music.
After literal decades of listening to Orientalist music and never having the name for it beyond 'Eastern-inspired video game /movie music' and coming her and FINALLY having a name for it to yell at people feels great! lol
It's actually important. Actual medieval music is beautiful and has a degree of 'soul' today that modern synthesized slop often lacks.
@@dentkort2046 don't just complain, take action. if no one does anything to stop this modern slop it will continue propagating and it will get worse.
@@YuutaShinjou113 I'm not a musician myself, but I do my best to support real talent when I see it. Both by spreading the word and financially.
@@dentkort2046 not just that, I am talking about war. literal war.
The biggest red flag with these “medieval” songs is that they never say which culture they’re from. How can it actually be a historical representation if you’re not representing a specific culture? It would be like if you made a “1900s version” but all your songs were a weird mix of funk and big band
Calling back to his previous video about "Desert Level Music" pulling elements from the entirety of Central Asia at the same time.
Distinction of cultures in middle ages Europe is hard to pin down. Western Christianity often overarched people groups that were distinct in language and material culture in the middle ages. The best distinction in musical pieces from the middle ages is the use of different languages, but for a long time virtually everything was written in Latin and the people who were able to write were in some way involved with the church and thus part of western roman chritianity, first and part of a certain people group secondly. And in practice you can actually define times when medieval Europe seems like a cultural monolith in contrast to the rest of the world, while within you only had different shades. And the concept of nationality was not even known at that time, which makes it even more alien to many people today.
@@jorgehaswag7294 kinda related to this, as a metalhead, I love to fuck with people and their understanding of what "80s" music is. "Oh so you're into Venom too? Cool shit!"
Even worse than not mentioning from what culture is "medieval" means around 1000 years of history. So even if it were "medieval music from culture x" might actually mean "medieval music from where culture x is associated with but then it was actually more like culture y"
My favourite part of medieval music is when people listen to actual Lusitanian and Hispanic medieval music, they think its very arabic.
I WONDER WHY
The answer though isn't the seemingly obvious "because of Arabic rule," your comment may imply at first glance to some.
One of the main points of this video is that Medieval European music at its onset was one with Middle-Eastern music. They were fundamentally the same: two modal, horizontal, melodic traditions with common origins in the Greco-Roman system of the Mediterranean.
The idea alot of people have is that Iberian music ended up sounding "Arabic" because Arabs ruled the land. And yet, French music of the 1000's also had those same "Arabic" features. So did German music, and they weren't under Arab rule. It's because those features aren't Arabic, or Eastern, or Oriental. They're modal; features not intrinsically of the east, Islam or Arabs, but instead features that both Western Europe and the Middle-East inherited from the Greco-Roman system of the Mediterranean. When people assume that Iberian music had those "Arabic" features due to Arabic conquest, they're missing the point of this video entirely.
All Medieval music was modal at the start, modality being the sound that most people associate with "orientality" or "arabicness" today. Arabs didn't bring this musical paradigm into Iberia. It was already there, in Antiquity, and it even defined English music.
that is because to most people, anything that isnt pentatonic they just assume is eastern. also lusitanians are hispanic. hispania is the name of the whole peninsula
Nah Lusitania was the boat that sank and started WW2, get your history straight
@@yourbrojohno nah, it was my sister Tanya's nickname in highschool, she was kind of a slut
@@goncalodias6402Hispania is what the Romans called it. Nowadays it's called the Iberian peninsula.
As someone who plays in a medieval band that tries to be more hiszorically accurate, that video is so awesome!
I think the Irish bouzouki gets used for a few extra reasons than just "guitar but unfamiliar":
1. Shape and sound are somewhat more in direction of lute
2. Fewer string courses = easier to make pseudomodal drone passages (many don't do it, but they get influenced in using the irbouz by those that do like arbogast)
3. Irish music has a lot of conservative features, so there's cultural overlap between the "zomg celtic" and "zomg medieval" crowds
Zomg?
I am also confused. What is zomg?
@@WretchedRedoranIt's just a more intense OMG, probably originally born from a typo. I think OP is ironically commenting on the blind enthusiasm of typical "Celtic" and "medieval" historical recreationist types.
Youngins don't know about ZOMG, lol.
@@ProfesserLuigi You seem educated in this matter. I ask you to enlighten me.
These historical original vs modern versions are your best videos
I feel like in Italy medieval music never really died. I have almost no education in music theory but I can immediately recognize the “real” medieval music. It’s still in our tradition, you hear this stuff in churches, historical festivals, modern folklore (saltarello, taranta etc.) plus there are a bunch of modern composers and songwriters still making music in *that* way.
Also interesting to point out how “neomelodica napoletana” which is a whole modern genre mainly predominant in the city of Naples sounds a lot more middle-eastern than medieval, and they all sing with those constant change of tones, interpreting the basic melody.
Personally not a big fan of neomelodica, but I absolutely love the more traditional folk popular stuff that our grandads used to dance to regularly 50 years ago or so.
I love bardcore. As bardcore. Just like i enjoy "medieval" fantasy (see: dnd) And i love medieval music, judging by what i heard in this video.
I have absolutely no idea why CZcams recommended this, I have never watched a thing on Bardcore, music theory or medieval music. But it was fascinating. Thanks. Also your kitten is amazing.
Basically Bardcore is like Cottagecore, one is rurality cosplay the other medieval cosplay. It is essentially a phantasy, which is just fine as long as you understand what it is.
What is Cottagecore?
@@baltulielkungsgunarsmiezis9714 Basically an idyllic "countryside" (or sometimes woodsy) lifestyle / fashion aesthetic: ) Of course the coziness is devoid the elbow grease of truly rustic living, hence the fantasy - it's pretty cute tho!
@@2zuku820 As a latvietis and actual rural person my idyllic countryside is likely not the same as theirs. My idealic living is same as I have but without worry for money, and without trees dying and having to be replanted the new now being small as compared to the 50+ year old ones planted by my grandparrents.
Pretty sure cottagecore is just Lichtenstein, tho
@@2zuku820 They're both just novelties. There's nothing important happening in either "movement". Bardcore music isn't really worth listening to and cottagecore, if that has a musical component, definitely isn't worth listening to
Just listen to real music that's inspired by stuff from old times, or stuff from rustic eras. Get involved with whatever longstanding folk music traditions appeal to you. These novelty genres are completely cringe.
My father was a contemporary and friend of David Munrow and that whole Cambridge scene in the early 1960s that led to the big authentic medieval music revival. So I grew up listening to this music as authentically performed as possible. It even irritates me when 16th century music is used as a soundtrack for a 14th century drama!
What you say about anachronistic and inappropriate music being used in soundtracks to represent either existing cultures or ancient cultures was absolutely was spot on.
Your kitten is very adorable lol
He attacc!
I may have 8 tests in two weeks, but nothing gets in the way of listening to my favourite Achaemenid Noble talk about music for an hour straight.
My personal journey in musical theory has been through Jazz. What I find really fascinating is that both the modern western framework of tonal, or "vertical" music, and modal, or "horizontal" music are present in the theory and practices of jazz.
Jazz and blues harmony is not triadic, rather it is built on 4 note chords, especially 7ths, but it is of course still built on functional harmony, that is using chords to tell a story. The dominant V with its dissonant tritone wants to resolve to a consonant I. The minor ii can lead us to that V giving us the fundamental ii-V-I. Continuing with the cycle of 5ths we can try a vi-ii-V-I and so forth. Unlike a western classical or pop artist, blues and jazz are of course famous for melodic improvisation, but one of the main ways Jazz musicians improvise is by memorizing the chord progression of the song and spontaneously making lines that target the notes of those chords. This is called playing "vertically," using the same sort of terminology you use, or as Miles Davis famously put it, playing "the butter notes."
But speaking of Miles Davis, the Jazz sound has also been defined by the model revolution he was an important part of. Model Jazz pieces don't emphasize harmonic movement but might instead use only one or two chords for the song. The improvisation you do in the modal framework is thus more "horizontal," exploring more of what you can do in those limited modes. You "don't play the butter notes," or those target tones of the harmony which you know will simply sound right, but instead take advantage of what's in-between them, opening up new tensions, new feelings, new journeys.
The thing is, the way I learned about these concepts, is that they are fundamentally intertwined. While classical and popular music is triadic, the Jazz theory of harmony evolved to see chords as modes. The major is the ionic, the dominant is the mixolydian, the minor ii is really the dorian, while the minor iv is the aeolian, and so forth. Thus, when a really skilled Jazz player sees something like A7♭9 on their lead sheet, they know that they could not only target A, C, G or B♭, but perhaps for that bar explore anywhere in the whole range of the "altered scale" for A and still be playing within a shared tonality with the band. Likewise, melody is not seen as existing separately from harmony, because melodies intrinsically have tonal centers they gravitate around, and thus can imply even without actual chord accompaniment the same harmonic motions. I may be a little biased in that my perspective of music theory is limited to my preferred genre, but it does feel like jazz transcends the dichotomy of tonal vs model. Perhaps it is a natural result of the fusional spirit of jazz, a genre born when classically trained Black musicians were pushed out of the concert halls of New Orleans and instead survived by fulfilling their own community's appetite for African rhythms and a folk spirit of blues.
LITTERALLY JUST TRIED TO FIND SOMEONE TALKING ABOUT THIS OMG
Highly ironic that speakers of what is in many ways the more conservative form of French associate medievalness with the less conservative form of it.
They are just larping in a fantasm version of middle age that's why
Same with English
It's especially funny because there are almost identical misconceptions about medieval and early modern English. Lots of people, especially in the US associate the upper class English 'received pronunciation' accent with medieval England, when in fact the accent didn't exist until the late 19th century. Reconstructions of the version of English actually used by Shakespeare, etc, sound completely different. It sounds much more like some working class regional dialects such as West Country English, with a few elements such as rhoticism that are absent from most of England, but are preserved in American English.
If theyre gona adjust their speach to sound more medival without wanting to learn a new language they should instead speak in written french, as in there are no silent letters, pronounce everything. Its not Pari its Paris. Its not Moreal its Montreal.
@@chrisball3778 RP is the language of the aristocrats of the British Empire who all had ties to Oxford and London. I think it sounds beautiful and dislike heavily the way the current king speaks.
As an anthropology student who aims to specialize in ethnomusicology, theese type of videos you make are are pure gold.
I am Greek Orthodox, and my dad is Calvinist. I invited him to my church one time and he said the Byzantine chant had a "Middle-Eastern Twang" to it. I am familiar with the Greek music you played. I think it has been played 11 million times at Greek festivals. It is the soundtrack to me eating gyros.
I really enjoy Medieval European music, but I also enjoy enjoy Bardcore. There is a pretty vast difference in quality and authenticity from one musician to another. I really like Arany Zoltan's music. If he is Bardcore, he's S-Tier. I listen to a lot of Medieval music and I really enjoyed your lecture. Did you also do a rant about CZcams strikes and how some companies are abusing that? Google has totally ruined CZcams. I also really enjoy your music, and I think it's cool that you linked to Jordi Savall, because I recently discovered his music and really enjoy what I've heard.
I am interested in Medieval music and the theory, but I wouldn't begin to know where I can study it. I know I can play the ordinary parts of the Mass in Pythagorean tuning. I have some interest in period organ music.
I'm not really a musician, more of a "MIDIsician". I can compose MIDI files and play them on organs. If Carolyn Hamlin can do that and call herself a composer, so can I. I just need to get a college to give me an honorary doctorate.
If you take requests, I'd like to hear Dutch rednecks playing banjos singing about moving to Russia. In all seriousness, I loved it that you used The Elder Scrolls theme at 36:33 as an example of polyphony. If you want to get a million views, make an authentic Medieval rendition of The Elder Scrolls Theme. Either way, you got yourself a subscriber.
Shoutout au cardinal de ta cour qui est le barde OG
ETA: Era, c'était mon enfance, tu m'as transporté loin
When I was in school, for a medieval european history-themed event my school hired a band focused on historical medieval music to perform in front of all the students. I loved it (but sadly I can't remember the band's name all these years later), and I do remember that hearing the music and later comparing it to "medieval" game soundtracks I noticed there was a difference that I couldn't put my finger on. I hope this video will help me understand it, so I look forward to what you have to say.
EDIT: Ok, I am not too well versed in music theory to understand every single detail but I think I got the jist of it. I don't remember the band's performance perfectly but I do remember a bit of the "multiple melodies" part in their songs. An interesting bit of knowledge to acquire, really.
Recently found your actual music, as well as other videos, so i'm excited to see a good critique from someone who actually knows what they are talking about.
What do you mean by actual music?
@@Pepe-pq3omactual music like his albums and songs presented as music, not as part of his videos.
Icl I had to go back because the kitten was too adorable
OMG, in 23:09 the kitten biting his fingers, OMG OMG OMG SO CUTE
Oh, that 'boli me kurac' caught me off guard 😂 you can't make me laugh like that at one in the morning, sir!
Also, excellent translation of the phrase as 'I don't give a flying f' - if you hadn't already said you'd grown up listening Balkan songs and soaked in the attitude and pronunciation through that, that would've convinced me
You're in North America. I hear the song of the cardinal in the background! 😊
Your videos are so fascinating and accessible; I'm a medieval nerd in other sectors, but know so little about music. Thank you for how much you put into laying out music theory concepts for us layfolk.
I recently watched your video on Greek music and really loved it. Rather than feel like my image of Greece was shattered, I sort of felt like something finally clicked that made Greek culture finally make sense to me. I bring it up here because you emphasize a lot in that video how Greek music is not the way it is because it was influenced by Turkish culture, but rather that it's core features, being modal and heterophonic, were there from the start. Now in this video you show how these were also the primary features of western European music until the early modern period, and it made me think: there is probably still a case to be made that Greek music is the way it is because of the Ottoman rule.
It's not that Greek music was completely transformed by Turkish influence, you make that point very clear, but maybe if Ottoman rule had not separated Greece from Western Europe, then the changes that were affecting music in Western Europe in the early modern period would have greatly transformed Greek music too. In this way, the Turks "protected" Greek music from outside influence. We see that in the Ionian Islands, where Venetians ruled, the native tradition was completely supplanted by a more Italian style. What's to say that that influence couldn't have spread further were it not for the political divide created by the Ottoman rule of the rest of Greece?
Even before Ottoman conquest, political and cultural division between Western Catholic Europe and Eastern Orthodox Byzantium also may have separated Greek musical traditions from the ones developing in Western Europe, so we maybe don't only have the Turks to thanks for keeping the "oriental" sounding features of Greek music alive, but I though it was an interesting way to frame the conversation, especially after watching you illustrate in detail the ways western medieval music also sounds rather "oriental" to the modern ear.
It's the argument that Katy Romanou, a foremost Greek ethnomusicologist and music historian makes.
Greeks who were under Italian rule became incredibly Italianised and lost much of their native Greek cultural apparatus like the music. The reason they did was because they were so friendly and well treated by the Italians that this friendliness created a context of open welcoming of the ruler's culture.
Greeks under Turkish rule however had a far more hostile relationship. This hostility meant they far more fiercely clung to their culture. Hence why Byzantine Chant in all of Greece still sounds (mostly) like it did in the 1200's and is a direct descendant of Greek historical practice going back to Antiquity, whilst in the Ionian Islands, the chants have become completely Westernised and are identical to Catholic chants (which function on the basis of tonality).
@@faryafaraji Ah, so fascinating! So my thought was on to something. I appreciated the details you added though, as they emphasize the autonomy of the Greek people in defining their own culture. I was very hesitant to use words like "protect" and "thank the Turks," because of course I know the Greek people generally see the Ottoman Empire as an oppressor to them, and from the bit of the region's history I am familiar with I know the Ottomans actively tried to erase their history and culture at times, destroying Greek inscriptions etc. Any "protection" of the Greek musical tradition on the part of the Ottoman rule was certainly an inadvertent side affect, and the explanation you provide of how Greeks clung hard to their traditions in active OPPOSITION to their oppressors explains very well the actual mechanism of their musical conservation. Any sense of "thank the Turks," as I put it, indeed can only be understood as an intriguing irony.
@@rdreher7380 You guys summed up this topic perfectly. I'm gonna have to screen shot this lol
@@rdreher7380 Ottoman rule was oppressive, but, still, better the turban of the Sultan than the tiara of the Pope.
@@faryafaraji that's weird. The Venetians were far more cruel as rulers, more oppressive and more prone to commit atrocities than the Ottomans. When compared, the Ottomans were more often than not considered the lesser evil.
In your video about Iranian music, I left a comment about the northwestern Italian tradition of the piffero, a double reed instrument. That tradition, by the way, is also featured in some releases of the Musiques Du Monde collection that you featured. And the interesting thing is that, while just as richly ornamented as modal music, that music -in its 19th century for and going backwards - was stuck in a transitional state between modal and tonal: it was always two distinct voices over the drone (the second being an improvised accompaniment), and the different sections of a single piece would recontextualise the drone as 1st, 5th, but also sometimes 4th or 2nd degree of the mode.
*19th century form
i love how able you are to simply create examples to illustrate your point. it really helps me to understand, and youve given me a greater ability to compare and contast different pieces
Thank you for this, I loved learning about it. The bit about French makes me think about how audiences expect/demand RP for Shakespeare...
My favourite Shakespeare company performs with their own regional accents (Mostly Yorkshire and the North-East) and it's _so_ much more pleasant.
You have just turned on so many lights in my brain...it's never too late to learn.
I now know what to call the differences that I have loved and heard in so many different types and eras of music that I have loved for the last 60 years.
I can't thank you enough.
Farya you are teaching us so much about music. Thank you for making these videos. Keep up the good work!
The first thing I was struck by here was that of the two examples you gave at the start of the video the historically reconstructed version actually sounded better. That clicks for me, I’ve always felt something was off when I’ve come across “historical” recordings that are simply the melody played without ornamentation. My feeling with those was always that they couldn’t be right - people 800 years ago were just as into music as we are today, they’d want more from musicians. This kind of explanation of how complexity was added without using harmony makes a lot of sense
This is also how I feel about those 'reconstructions' of how statues looked when painted. Like yes, I'm glad we're now acknowledging that they were colourful, but can't they get actual artists in so they look less like paint-by-numbers projects? I refuse to believe that ancient Romans could paint beautifully lifelike images on frescoes and encaustic tomb portraits but then their statuary looked like it was painted by a ten-year-old.
Usually I feel very dumb and lost whenever I watch anything regarding music theory... I'm not going to claim that my old teachers were lousy or anything - plenty of my classmates grasped the concepts in those classes - but I'm glad to have gained a small amount of understanding on the subject! I wish you could teach me all about music theory but... I know that's an absurd request. Love the informative videos!
I didn’t go to music school so I’ve learned all my theory on CZcams, and from what I can tell, there are a much greater variety of teaching styles online. You might get more out of teaching yourself!
SAME. I always found studying music theory like trying to hold water in a sieve until I discovered Farya. It was the one subject I thought I'd just be unable to learn ever. With pretty much everything else at school, even if I wasn't particularly good at it, I could always at least figure out the basics, but music theory was just completely incomprehensible to me. It's wild to finally get a grasp on it in my mid-30s thanks to a youtube channel
I always love the examples you use to illustrate what you are discussing in these types of videos. It really helps in understanding the difference, and why.
Found your channel not even a month ago, what a treasure trove. Love the essays, love the music!
Man the epic talk series such is a gem
Keep the good job.
Thank you for not only providing this information in a way that is easy to understand but also giving your sources. It gives me appreciation for what each part of the musical spectrum is attempting to accomplish.
"The musician was a composer themselves, in-situ using spontaneous improvisation"
My brain: Medieval Jazz.
Also; c'est un beau p'tit criss de chat
When we sing Collegerunt Pontifices every year on Palm Sunday, our parish priest announces from the pulpit that there will be jazz jamboree from the 11th century at the beginning of the procession.
I feel like almost all music before the spread of mass-produced sheet music for hobby musicians in the mid-19th century was in some way improvisational. Even Bach and Beethoven would improvise in concert.
First, I would like to give my sincere gratitude and appreciation for your videos. You are very informed, clearly intelligent and mindful of your audience.
When you arrived at the psychology of Bardcore I found myself reflecting on the same kinds of invention through amalgamation that happened with the New Age movement in the 60s and 70s. People definitely did not want to commit to stepping outside of their comfort zones and engage with Asian religion/philosophy; but rather treated the whole think like a buffet restaurant. Neo-paganism moved towards a kind of synthesis of modern sensibilities with parts of [heavily assumed] older European traditions; but still suffers from [and benefits from] a blurring of the lines of ancient accents over modern interpretations.
It is not lost on me that many of the people who adore Bardcore the most have a strong overlap with neo-pagan identity. One becomes the soundtrack of the other.
Like you, I feel the need to put a disclaimer that I am not posting this as an insult to neo-paganism. The term is vague enough that individual intent and practice defines it more than any sort of established doctrine. I merely point to a commonality, suggest a shared parent of motivation, and ask that people quit believing ahistorical things are historic.
Great video, wonderful performances, and overall excellent, purposeful scholarship. We need more content creators like you.
Yet another insightful video. I like the way you explain that you aren't disparaging anything. You are just trying to create clarity. Like your other work, it was very enjoyable and I always learn something. I have been a musician for 40 years and have some theory background. I always find out something new watching your content. Thanks for sharing!
This video is honestly one of the best I have ever viewed on youtube. It has exploded my mind into composition mode.
thank you for taking the time to explain this, its very appreciated and im glad to learn something new today
Just discovered your channel via this video. Keep up the great work Farya, I learned so much from your your analysis, Thank you.
Honoured to see the linguistic god here haha, big admirer of your works
@@faryafaraji Hardly haha I am but a humble shitposter but you do me honor
I clicked faster than the Carolingian Empire expanded and disintergrated
Up and down! oh, look, Charlemagne! And it's gone!
By some measures, it never disintegrated properly
As a paladin of Charlemagne this is true
Salut Farya, a chaque fois que tu fais une "epic talking" j ai vraiment l impression d apprendre de nouvelles choses sur la musique pratiqué par des cultures que je ne connais pas du tout . Ca m a vraiment ouvert les yeux sur l incroyable diversité de sons que mes oreilles d europeen moderne n ont pas l habitude d entendre et trouvaient "dissonantes" et etrange. Tu possede un veritable talent de vulgarisateur en plus d etre un très bon musicien !
Bless your heart for all the time and effort you've spent on disclaiming and/or clarifying things for those who are so opinionated that they apparently don't LISTEN and appreciate the information or the music you share! 😢 You are an EXCELLENT teacher/communicator! I now know more about not only the basics of western music but also the differences between Bardcore and actual medieval music (both of which I love 😊). YT suggested this video to me, so it was my first visit to your channel. I am now a subscriber.😊 I look forward to seeing and hearing more from you...and the kitten!😉😊
I subscribed after watching your video on Middle Eastern Music about a month ago. As someone who loves bardcore (and has tried making bardcore covers of modern music), I’ve loved listening to your medieval songs over the last month. I’m so glad this explanation video came so soon after I subscribed :)
this is super interesting! I had never thought about music in terms of verticality vs. horizontality before, and previously when hearing modal music I often felt overwhelmed, because my brain felt thrown off by the amount of detail in the melody and could not find the ""proper"" consonant harmony it was looking for - but now that makes sense! it needs to be listened to in a different way to be understood because modal music values different things!
Would you say that Bardcore (and that restaurant) are more based on the idea of medieval fantasy stories than the actual middle ages?
Ensemble Organum is terrific. Their rendition of 'Dum Pater Familias' from the Codex Calistinus gives me chills. It's one of my favorite examples to show people of how modal music can still be really pleasing to our modern ears, and doesn't have to be 'boring' (which is a complaint I've heard from people sometimes, albeit rarely thankfully.)
This has quickly become my favorite channel, I've always wanted to learn more about music, I know fuck all. But you make it so open and interesting
I really appreciate that your videos break things down enough so less experienced people like me can understand. 😂 By the time you got to “stop thinking of this sound as Eastern, think of it as modal,” I actually understood what that meant. (And I wouldn’t have at beginning.)
I always learn a lot watching your videos. Thanks for all your hard work!
Is the modal framework similar to the Indian Carnatic/Hindustani 'raagam'? Sounds very similar to how we take a single 'raagam' and add multiple ornamentations or 'alangkaaram'. We also use a drone usually on a 'tanpura', modern machines like a 'shruti box' or just an iPhone app haha. Thanks for another great video Farya!
Yeah, earlier Medieval music was closer in many regards to a modal tradition like Indian Classical forms or Ottoman Classical music
@@faryafaraji Very cool! I like medieval music now haha. I guess I always associated medieval music with bardcore and wasn't really a fan. This changes everything.
Just discovered this channel a few weeks ago, I’ve already learned a ton. I’ve always found the modern misperceptions around medieval accents/languages really fascinating, I didn’t know there was a similar cultural fog for medieval music as well. The cute kitten and the backdrop of Quebec’s Côte-Nord here were added bonuses!
Such a great video, i just want to give a big thank you, i appreciate the effort very much.
I'm so relieved, for a while now I've been worried that a complex piece I've been trying to arrange was stepping out of harmony way too much; today I learned that all I need to do is reframe it as modal!
Thanks, incredible analysis! In depth. _I didn't need the pin comments of any possible correction to thank you for this remarkable work, well done._
I use historical hand sewing techniques to make historically accurate clothing and i love how you explained that!
41:06 I was hoping you would talk about the drone notes, and you made it, and I am SO HAPPY. This video is making me happy in every aspect.
Once again another super insightful video. Who knew our perceptions could be so off!
I really like how this series of videos informs new musicians about how to make authentic music about certain eras. I have always struggled to find music like what u post on your channel since it's not *mainstream-themed* , especially the Iranian and Byzantine ones and I think it's time people realise what culturally accurate music really sounded like without all the western Hollywood stereotypes.
Thank you I welcome your information. Look forward to further content from you, sir. May all your days be blessed?
I loved this video so much! I couldn’t hear you over the loud bird in a couple of the sections but luckily the captions helped!
If bardcore is medieval music with modern tonal structures, we need an equal and opposite genre that I would like to dub: corebard. We take modern fantasy music and re-work them with modal structures!
It'd probably blow its counterpart out of the water if we're being honest. Modern slop is completely soulless.
@@dentkort2046 it seems like the soullessness of modern slop is a bad thing. if you think that it is, why not stage a protest or spread awareness?
@@YuutaShinjou113 Because the system doesn't care about peaceful protests unless they promote their interests. Neither does it care about democratic elections. Another type of, more final - solution is thus necessitated.
@@dentkort2046 Can you explain more of that in layman terms? By the way, I might inform you I typically lean right in views and ideology.
Yes, this is the mind explosion I got from this video. You could completely write "medieval music with a twist" by reworking modern fantasy music. I tried this just a few minutes ago singing along with my ukulele. I sang the melody from the Skyrim Theme, and just played an alternating fifth of the mode (like for some of the Cantigas of Santa Maria) along side, improvising horizontally with my voice. It sounded absolutely alien in the best possible way. It feels like beginning a new journey.
As someone who loves Medieval Music and neo medieval bardcore I'm so glad you made this giant compilation in pin comment and ofcource the video itself. At this lenght this video could be a BBC documentary with big budget. So glad youtube recomends this types of videos to me!
I love bardcore. It's fun and doesn't take itself seriously. I'm also a fan of history. Music is a big part of understanding people in their own time. Plus, medieval music is just pretty. 😊
The first subject I studied in college was music, with an emphasis on music history. I know enough to be able to follow along with your presentation and understand your arguments academically, and I really appreciate your scholarship on this subject. I can learn a lot from your videos
Quelle vidéo incroyable, félicitation ! J'ai toujours eu du mal avec le fait que les gens considèrent "médiévales" des choses qui ne le sont pas, que ce soit pour la musique, l'architecture, la nourriture ou même le style de vie. Merci de participer au rétablissement de la vérité historique, les gens devraient s'instruire beaucoup plus sur l'histoire.
Another Banger by Farya from Montmorency! These long form epic talking videos are the best. Hopefully one day you'll get around to doing one for central asian music too so we can better understand how it works.
When you talked about how the Francosphere treats modern French from France as default sound for a "medieval" aesthetic, when your Québécois is in many ways closer to medieval French, I found it incredibly interesting to learn that this isn't just a thing in the English speaking world. Any sort of medieval historical or fantasy film or show these days HAS to have people speaking in VERY MODERN British accents. No one could ever imagine Robin Hood sounding like an American, but in reality American English has many features that make it closer to historical English than modern BBC English does.
Some people will say that the often repeated idea that American English is "closer to Shakespeare's English" is a misconception. It's true that Americans don't speak exactly the same as an Elizabethan Englishman would have, as English has evolved in distinct ways on both sides of the pond, and there are many features of that time period's accents that are not present in any form of English today. However, I think what gets missed is that certain linguistic features are more salient than others, forming shibboleths that we use to identify people, and one of those features in English is rhoticity, or whether or not you say the R-sound after vowels in words like "car" or "park." The "general American" accent is rhotic, while most dialects of Britain are not. Historically, before around the 19th century, all English dialects were rhotic, and would thus sound more "American" to many modern people's ears. It can be subjective though, so some people hear original pronunciation of Shakespeare and think it sounds Irish, for example. But I've never heard of anyone hearing it and thinking "yup, the thing this most resembles is modern BBC English."
Of course, if we are talking actual medieval English, it would have been Old or Middle English and be completely incomprehensible to the audience, so I don't expect any show or movie to use that, and even early modern English can be hard to understand if you are not used to hearing it. Furthermore, fantasy has no reason to use any specific historical accent, because it's presumably Middle Earth or Westros or whatever, not England. But then why, why, why do they ALWAYS have to sound like modern British people? I especially hate it when it's a very posh sounding accent, because at least a rustic accent, like the West Country, would give off the vibes of "olden times," and they got rhoticity too for that matter. Welsh accents give me the vibes of Arthurian myth and dragons and fairytales, why not use those? Or like, I remember seeing an ad for the Witcher, and thought to myself "isn't that story written by a Polish guy, and that world heavily inspired by Slavic folklore? Why don't they talk like eastern Europeans then?" Nope, everyone talks like they're from 20th century London, because that's what English speakers, perhaps non-UK people especially, think "medieval/fantasy" English is.
As far as why "medieval fantasy English" is always a London accent, it's because people saw the very intentional use of RP in Peter Jackson's Lord of the Rings and misinterpreted it. He had the characters who were well educated use RP, in order to contrast with the backcountry accents of the hobbits. Frodo's posher accent is because he's a bookworm, but even he sounds rustic compared to Elrond and Galadriel. It's very strange to hear RP from a character like Geralt, especially since the video game version sounded American. I don't think I would give him a Polish accent, to be clear. I am not intending to give an English speaking viewer the impression that Geralt is a Pole speaking English. Rather I would pretend I was dubbing a Polish movie into English, and translate the character's age and social status into an accent. So, he would sound like a 1920s hillbilly, of either the American or British flavors.
@@sophiejones3554 I guess what you say about using a Polish accent makes sense. To most people, the use of a foreign accent would imply that characters are foreign to the setting, instead of implying that they are elite or urban or rural or all the sorts of things that you can express by using the sociolinguistic landscape of the target audience's culture. For me though, it's a little different because I am Russian-American. For me an eastern European accent is not "foreign" and "strange," it is intimately familiar, the sound of my mother telling me skazki, or Russian fairytales. The fantasy worlds I imagine do not sound English, they sound like Pushkin's poetry, even when I speak and think in English. I imagine the author of the Witcher had a similar linguistic soundscape in mind for his fantasy embedded in Slavic folklore, and I wonder if there are ways to capture that instead of defaulting to the generic "ye olde" renfair RP-based accents. You can go too far for sure though, if you amp up the non-Englishness simply to exoticize, you could say orientalize, the culture being referenced. If you were to use Eastern European accents in a production, it would have to come from people whose backgrounds are like mine - where those accents embody the people of our livid experiences we want to paint portraits of, not stereotypes and fetishized tropes. Can it be done when your audience is primarily not people like me? I don't know, but my heart wants it to be possible, because my world is not English, and I cannot imagine it being mangled, dented, and crushed to fit into the tiny box of fantasy RP.
@@rdreher7380 that's completely understandable, but I think the way to address that would be actually using a Slavic language or a Slavic-sounding conlang in the show. Which, tbf, they could have done in the Witcher since they had to have characters speak "elvish". As far as I can tell, they just used gibberish sounds, it doesn't even seem to have been a conlang. If it was, it didn't really do anything to enhance the Slavic flavor. Part of the appeal of Lord of the Rings for me is that Tolkien based his elvish on Welsh, which is part of my cultural heritage. While I wouldn't say Welsh or a Welsh accent is "the language of fantasy" for me, my grandparents spoke with a similar accent to me, it does have an appeal to me that other languages don't. And I am certainly a big supporter of getting Anglophone viewers to watch non-Anglophone media. Eastern European countries make movies and shows, including fantasy. They could use the kind of investment and exposure that a streaming platform like Netflix could give them.
I like how Elden Ring makes use of many distinct English accents. You do hear modern British, but you also hear Welsh, Irish, Scottish accents and perhaps others.
Yep ---got it right away!
Great video.
Glad I discovered your channel
Farya, the work that you do is just so amazing. As a humble novice reenactor of high middle ages period i find your content so inspiring to not just recreate the look of the time but to try to see and hear the world in the way people back then did.
Love from Russia.