I think the question should be can bricks be laid successfully frog down ? Answer yes . The reason the frogs are empty in this wall has more do do with bad workmanship than the fact they are laid frog down. It does not necessarily follow that the frogs will be empty due solely to the fact that they have been laid frog down. I’ve taken down sections of brickwork to create door opes etc and found the bricks have been laid frog up but they still have voids in the mortar bed due to deep furrowing that often extended into the frog so laying bricks frog up in itself won’t guarantee the bed joint to be free of voids . If Charlie collision had laid the brick in this wall either frog up or frog down the frogs would be full because he doesn’t furrow the mortar . Furrowing mortar always has the potential to leave voids in the bed joint.
A lot of DIY'ERS mistakenly think they're building a more waterproof wall with bricks frog down (e.g. frog won't hold water). Many don't line up their perps, use gauge sticks/rods etc. either (& a lot use washing up liquid in place of mortar plasticiser).
I remember reading in the BDA guide to successful brickwork, it must be frog up, many years ago when I did my apprenticeship. As Rob states, the compressive strength of the wall is weakened by all the voids created by the frogs. A big 👍 to you Rob, for showing how things should be done. Too many people are look how fast I am, or clearly not taught properly!
Put more muck on and the frog fills up! If you lay frog up and put a deep furrow in the bed you will still get voids just like you will with a brick with holes in there’s no guarantee all the holes are full. I get sick of hearing sanctimonious bricklayers harping on about it.
Here's one for you. If your internal walls that carry all the load i.e. floors and roof are only 3.6N why does the brick work need to be 20N crushing strength ?
Frog up common sense but you’ll always get the odd courses frog down just to get to gauge if it’s a tight bed it’s not gonna do any harm, also some brickies will do the top course frog down with a big bed so that timbers or beams are screwed into the top of the wall nice and solid...
Hiya Rob, I was taught that frog down allows water build up within the frog due to vapour in the void and after a few freeze & thaw cycles will cause the brick to spall. Great video 👍. Hope you have a good one Regards Tim
Very shallow frog in those bricks they could be successfully laid frog down if bedded into an unfurrowed or lightly furrowed mortar bed . Is that a handyman built wall.? Have you ever knocked down a wall laid frog up with partially filled frogs or with voids in the bed its usually the result of deep furrowed mortar beds.
I vaguely remember when I was in college there is a time to lay frogs down. It was something to do with soundproofing I think in a school music studio. Also the room walls were offset. Not square.
Well I can only say this about that . The opening or frog 🐸 as we might say always when possible should be up. Sound proofing I don't understand the theory behind that, When I say when possible there are times when its convenient to reverse this , like when cutting around a pip all bricklayer know what i mean. In Canada 🇨🇦 we mostly use bricks with holes 🕳 right though them .and in most cases it doesn't matter. Hell we can go on forever about this but just lay them 🐸 up and tell the people in the other room to keep it down
All the pressure is sitting on the 20mm perimeter of the brick if the frog is down and not full - that’s the way I see it - so when the fronts blow off due to frost or whatever - it’s a recipe for problems
A lot of jobs with dry pressed bricks in Australia where I have worked have been frog down after I have listened to your view l agree with you. I started laying bricks in 1978 it’s a eye opener.
Its not the reason why bricks have holes instead of frogs ,some semi engineered bricks have a weathered face and can only be laid one way up .Frogs and holes form a vacuum and suction making wall stronger and prevent slip .Those who lay frog down are commonly known as people who lay bricks not Bricklayers. Bad practice frog down .
@@martin2466 Interesting comment Martin ,the science rings true but the facts are that the voids in bricks ie frogs do create a vacuum and when a wall is bonded correctly this vacuum makes for a stronger wall .
Listen I've just laid about 750 frog down ,that's not the issue,the issue is the versatility that having 3 separate bricks gives you. If you've noticed, there are actually three different bricks that come with this style of brick,it a a tool to help you achieve the many varied situation that you may run into,think about it.....
Rob thanks for showing this bad practice which im sorry to say is still going on today the other thing which is being done is the dry laying of the dpc without bedding it between two layers of mortar what's your take on this, l was taught to bed the dpc on mortar been following you for years keep up the good work and advice you give to the young guns who are our next craftsmen hopefully .
This is a really good point dry laying of dpc I was always taught to lay on bed of mortar and still bed it on mortar but I know a lot who dry lay it or fill the perforated holes roughly on engineering bricks and then lay it but again it's not right in my view would love to know robs thoughts on this
It's always been and should be frog up, frog down is used as for some it seems easier and quicker to lay brick by people who's need for speed is more important than structural quality but have never actually laid with a trowel who was laying frog down as all bricklayers know its frog up but some just use methods which they think is enhancing there laying speed so basically people usually on price but is it any quicker really as supposedly easier and quicker to bed brick to line but if you get your bed right it's easy anyway
The frog is in the brick mould . It’s purpose from what I have read is to deflect the clay to the outer edges of the mould when the brick maker throws the clay into the mould . It also saved money for the brick manufactures because it required less clay to make the brick.
@@ljones396 that’s true if the brickys they are mixing for are laying them frog down into furrowed mortar . but if they are laying them pick and dip style frog down into unfurrowed mortar not true . If Charlie collision laid the bricks in robs example wall in the video frog down using his pick and dip technique all the frogs would be full.
Here in the States the way bricks are made the leading top edge is straight whilst the bottom is far from being consistent. Our frogs on most common brick are not nearly as deep as English brick. Myself I never furrow so it's not a problem with me. If I were to lay frog up the finished brickwork would never have a level looking course because of the uneven edge being laid to the line.
Hi Rob, up here in Yorkshire (probably elsewhere in the UK as well) we have a lot of reclaimed bricks from 50+ years ago, these are handmade bricks and can vary in size and shape, I love watching your videos but would you do a video showing how to lay these bricks, the reason why is because I'm a novice and found it really hard to lay these as some were nearly banana shaped. I think what I'm trying to say is that could you show a video how to lay bricks that are not made by machine, IE the new stuff but use old hand made bricks as these are very slightly different lengths, widths and height, hope this makes sense. Jason
Where do you get the white hydraulic lime. We use nhl hydraulic lime 3 or 5. Mixed at 3/1. It comes out yellow in color. We mix once and fill the bin. Seal top with polythene. Remix next day and its has no water releasing from mix( no morty allowed)
Bad work! always frog up as you say, solidity of wall. I wish technical colleges would ram it home to young ones so there is never a doubt, like water is wet.
Danny Wickens, Yes you are right it does create a void, but nearly all facing bricks these days have vertical holes through them so which way up should we lay these so as not to create a void ???
Frogs UP..... every time to achieve the maximum crushing strength of a minimum 20N. Extruded bricks are denser than a normal clay facing so they naturally achieve the crushing capacity
@@robsonger1 Engineering extruded bricks have more compression strength, but only in the standard direction. They are weak as piss in all other directions... on edge, soldier, etc. Common extruded are no stronger than pressed, and pressed are always stronger in ALL directions. Anyway, all of them are stronger than the mortar, so the compression arguement is a mute point. Frog up increases moisture retention which causes all the other problems. Frogs DOWN
So you say....Frog up (completely solid) increases water retention, whereas frog down (with voids and pockets) doesn't retain moisture in those voids.... So, what you are saying is that The British Ceramic Research Association book I have, Model Specification for Load-bearing Clay Brickwork 1967, page 4, point 2.4.2..."single frogged bricks shall be laid uppermost on a full bed of mortar....all frogs shall be filled with mortar" is wrong? Thank you
.. incidentally, the report also says, that extruded bricks are to have the holes unfilled to increase the thermal quality of the wall, as their strength exceeds that of a standard clay brick. I have an excellent rep from the Sussex Brick Company who knows everything, I'll chat to him later.
@@robsonger1 Yes, its wrong. Like most things british. Mortar is more porous than brick, and will absorb water more readily. That water sinks into the frog even if it's full of mortar, but worse when it has been furrowed, which for some reason is what most brickies do, they seem to take pride in their furrowing abilities. Why? Don't furrow. Frogs down. Even better, use solids without frogs.
First off those were not layed correctly in the first place. Secondly "frog up or down" won't matter as long as its done correctly in warm climates. "frog down" is correct in cold climates. Brick walls are not forever. A long time yes if maintained correctly... which most are not. When that wall starts to allow water in it's going to settle in the frog of the brick if it's layed "frog up". Then the freeze comes and suddenly the top of your chimney is breaking all apart as the ice breaks the bonds all around that brick and allows more water in next rain. In a perfect world they should stop making brick with frogs because 99% of bricklayers don't know this. BTW you can lay a "frog down" brick and still get a full bed joint however you will never be able to keep the water out of a brick layed "frog up" even if you fill every single brick perfectly. I have repaired enough of these in a cold climate to know this as a fact. If you lay a brick frog up in my area especially in a chimney where its most heavily weathered I will be fixing your mess. My best advice is to completly avoid this kind of brick if you can. There are much better choices out there.
Frogs serve for many reasons. The main reason is to reduce the weight of the brick, so it is easier for repetitive handling. Another reason is by having a frog, slightly less clay is used meaning more can be produced, and final reason is frog up provides a 100% full bed, which gives a stronger wall, no moisture pockets, and gives the wall a longer life. Bricks that are laid frog down firstly appear 'sad', as the clay mold gives the appearance of a smile...so if one bricklayer in a gang lays frog down this can often be seen, and stand out. Also, I have punched many many new doorways into old openings where the bricks are frog down and the bricks in between the needles fail, and drop. Finally, and what we were all taught, the moisture pockets freeze and in time add to deterioration. Also imagine, a 3+ storey building, all the tonnes of brickwork resting on just the arris of the brick and empty frogs, in time will fail. When I was an apprentice all the Clerk of Works tended to be bricklayers and ALL of them were so hot on checking that we all laid frog up for all the reasons mentioned.
@@robsonger1 They were all wrong then. They should have been checking that you had full frogs in a structural building but these bricks should never be used in a structural building in the first place. Yes, the frogs were to save money on clay. That was the only reason for the frog at all. These bricks should not even be on the market.
@@robsonger1 So what happens when the mortar starts to fail and you have a wall with frogs up? Won't there be a freeze thaw issue when water collects in the frog? Have there been tests on this issue?
NHBC guidelines used to require it...not heard it for a while now...but every single bricklayer I grew up with, and looked up to all were frog up. Frog down started with the increase in price work and the need to get'm down...
@@robsonger1 The standard of bricks and brickwork have decreased over the years have a look at the bricks on the job I'm doing right now and they are 1 pound each ,There is a vid on my channel ,Its got to the point where they just have to go in
I think the question should be can bricks be laid successfully frog down ? Answer yes . The reason the frogs are empty in this wall has more do do with bad workmanship than the fact they are laid frog down. It does not necessarily follow that the frogs will be empty due solely to the fact that they have been laid frog down. I’ve taken down sections of brickwork to create door opes etc and found the bricks have been laid frog up but they still have voids in the mortar bed due to deep furrowing that often extended into the frog so laying bricks frog up in itself won’t guarantee the bed joint to be free of voids . If Charlie collision had laid the brick in this wall either frog up or frog down the frogs would be full because he doesn’t furrow the mortar . Furrowing mortar always has the potential to leave voids in the bed joint.
Rob Songer has spoken, nuff said.
Frogs up full bed
A lot of DIY'ERS mistakenly think they're building a more waterproof wall with bricks frog down (e.g. frog won't hold water). Many don't line up their perps, use gauge sticks/rods etc. either (& a lot use washing up liquid in place of mortar plasticiser).
I remember reading in the BDA guide to successful brickwork, it must be frog up, many years ago when I did my apprenticeship. As Rob states, the compressive strength of the wall is weakened by all the voids created by the frogs. A big 👍 to you Rob, for showing how things should be done. Too many people are look how fast I am, or clearly not taught properly!
You are speaking of the compression strength of the wall. Frog up or down won't matter as long as the frog is full.
Always frog up 👌🏻
Put more muck on and the frog fills up! If you lay frog up and put a deep furrow in the bed you will still get voids just like you will with a brick with holes in there’s no guarantee all the holes are full. I get sick of hearing sanctimonious bricklayers harping on about it.
Well then...
@@robsonger1 well what
Here's one for you. If your internal walls that carry all the load i.e. floors and roof are only 3.6N why does the brick work need to be 20N crushing strength ?
Wind is a factor on external walls its not only about crushing.
Don’t think the wall would stand a chance frog up or down with a 20n wind load from the side 😂
Frog up common sense but you’ll always get the odd courses frog down just to get to gauge if it’s a tight bed it’s not gonna do any harm, also some brickies will do the top course frog down with a big bed so that timbers or beams are screwed into the top of the wall nice and solid...
Hiya Rob, I was taught that frog down allows water build up within the frog due to vapour in the void and after a few freeze & thaw cycles will cause the brick to spall.
Great video 👍.
Hope you have a good one
Regards
Tim
No no no frog up always,
Very shallow frog in those bricks they could be successfully laid frog down if bedded into an unfurrowed or lightly furrowed mortar bed . Is that a handyman built wall.? Have you ever knocked down a wall laid frog up with partially filled frogs or with voids in the bed its usually the result of deep furrowed mortar beds.
Thanks Rob. Wasn't expecting a video from my question 😁
I vaguely remember when I was in college there is a time to lay frogs down. It was something to do with soundproofing I think in a school music studio. Also the room walls were offset. Not square.
Well I can only say this about that .
The opening or frog 🐸 as we might say always when possible should be up.
Sound proofing I don't understand the theory behind that,
When I say when possible there are times when its convenient to reverse this , like when cutting around a pip all bricklayer know what i mean. In Canada 🇨🇦 we mostly use bricks with holes 🕳 right though them .and in most cases it doesn't matter. Hell we can go on forever about this but just lay them 🐸 up and tell the people in the other room to keep it down
All the pressure is sitting on the 20mm perimeter of the brick if the frog is down and not full - that’s the way I see it - so when the fronts blow off due to frost or whatever - it’s a recipe for problems
A lot of jobs with dry pressed bricks in Australia where I have worked have been frog down after I have listened to your view l agree with you. I started laying bricks in 1978 it’s a eye opener.
you started the same time as me...
You get less for murder
I started in 78 as well.
I had a fall 10 years ago and fractured 9 vertebrae in my back and neck l miss it now.
Stu crompton lays them frog down. Muppet
Also runs 3-4m solid lengths of lead too and uploads it for everyone to see 🤦🏻♂️
@@martin2466 the parapet roof repair 👀🤦🏻♂️
You are correct my friend.
I agree and I think that is why most bricks 🧱 now have holes. To stop the frog up frog down confusion 👍
Its not the reason why bricks have holes instead of frogs ,some semi engineered bricks have a weathered face and can only be laid one way up .Frogs and holes form a vacuum and suction making wall stronger and prevent slip .Those who lay frog down are commonly known as people who lay bricks not Bricklayers. Bad practice frog down .
@@martin2466 Interesting comment Martin ,the science rings true but the facts are that the voids in bricks ie frogs do create a vacuum and when a wall is bonded correctly this vacuum makes for a stronger wall .
Listen I've just laid about 750 frog down ,that's not the issue,the issue is the versatility that having 3 separate bricks gives you. If you've noticed, there are actually three different bricks that come with this style of brick,it a a tool to help you achieve the many varied situation that you may run into,think about it.....
Can you give an example where frog down would be beneficial?
Nice watch Rob 👍🏻🇬🇧
How long has it being standing?
Not only that but also lots of brick types require you to lay them frog up by default.
No default mate. That's how it should only be done.
Sadly a lot of 🤠s around
Charlie Collison thru them in at £5 per brick
Onwards and UPWARDS bud!
Rob thanks for showing this bad practice which im sorry to say is still going on today the other thing which is being done is the dry laying of the dpc without bedding it between two layers of mortar what's your take on this, l was taught to bed the dpc on mortar
been following you for years keep up the good work and advice you give to the young guns who are our next craftsmen hopefully .
This is a really good point dry laying of dpc I was always taught to lay on bed of mortar and still bed it on mortar but I know a lot who dry lay it or fill the perforated holes roughly on engineering bricks and then lay it but again it's not right in my view would love to know robs thoughts on this
Proofs in the cured pudding then!
It's always been and should be frog up, frog down is used as for some it seems easier and quicker to lay brick by people who's need for speed is more important than structural quality but have never actually laid with a trowel who was laying frog down as all bricklayers know its frog up but some just use methods which they think is enhancing there laying speed so basically people usually on price but is it any quicker really as supposedly easier and quicker to bed brick to line but if you get your bed right it's easy anyway
Seems weird that anyone would question it. Why else would they be there but to be filled with mortar and add strength to the bond?
The frog is in the brick mould . It’s purpose from what I have read is to deflect the clay to the outer edges of the mould when the brick maker throws the clay into the mould . It also saved money for the brick manufactures because it required less clay to make the brick.
@@brickbybric ditto for the lads mixing up the mortar when laying them frog down, although wrong; I guess you'd save on mortar on big walls.
@@ljones396 that’s true if the brickys they are mixing for are laying them frog down into furrowed mortar . but if they are laying them pick and dip style frog down into unfurrowed mortar not true . If Charlie collision laid the bricks in robs example wall in the video frog down using his pick and dip technique all the frogs would be full.
As a bricklayer / building inspector it must be frog up but i do understand why guys lay them frog down because it’s easier.
Here in the States the way bricks are made the leading top edge is straight whilst the bottom is far from being consistent. Our frogs on most common brick are not nearly as deep as English brick. Myself I never furrow so it's not a problem with me. If I were to lay frog up the finished brickwork would never have a level looking course because of the uneven edge being laid to the line.
The only time you lay frog down is to avoid a grinning brick then fill frog first then lay. easy.
Hi Rob, I’m putting together some training for Bricklayers, would you mind if I borrowed this vid please?
Certainly, I have lots more on their way too.
Thank you for watching
@@robsonger1 thank you
Always up, people always furrow anyways so they then would move the mud away from center anyways.
Hi Rob, up here in Yorkshire (probably elsewhere in the UK as well) we have a lot of reclaimed bricks from 50+ years ago, these are handmade bricks and can vary in size and shape, I love watching your videos but would you do a video showing how to lay these bricks, the reason why is because I'm a novice and found it really hard to lay these as some were nearly banana shaped.
I think what I'm trying to say is that could you show a video how to lay bricks that are not made by machine, IE the new stuff but use old hand made bricks as these are very slightly different lengths, widths and height, hope this makes sense. Jason
Can you make a video about pic n dip where you scoop the mortar instead of buttering your joints and explain your opinions on it?
Where do you get the white hydraulic lime. We use nhl hydraulic lime 3 or 5. Mixed at 3/1. It comes out yellow in color. We mix once and fill the bin. Seal top with polythene. Remix next day and its has no water releasing from mix( no morty allowed)
its the sand, using a washed sand with not a lot of fines in it can give you a virtually white mortar
Bad work! always frog up as you say, solidity of wall. I wish technical colleges would ram it home to young ones so there is never a doubt, like water is wet.
Where I live the bricks don't have frogs. :D
It creates a void
Danny Wickens, Yes you are right it does create a void, but nearly all facing bricks these days have vertical holes through them so which way up should we lay these so as not to create a void ???
I think that depends on different areas,where I'm located we mainly use stock bricks with frogs.
@rob songer Good to know. Many thanks for the tip, as always. Bob 🤗
Frogs DOWN. Rob, can you explain how extruded bricks ever achieve full bed for compression.
Frogs UP..... every time to achieve the maximum crushing strength of a minimum 20N. Extruded bricks are denser than a normal clay facing so they naturally achieve the crushing capacity
@@robsonger1 Engineering extruded bricks have more compression strength, but only in the standard direction. They are weak as piss in all other directions... on edge, soldier, etc.
Common extruded are no stronger than pressed, and pressed are always stronger in ALL directions. Anyway, all of them are stronger than the mortar, so the compression arguement is a mute point. Frog up increases moisture retention which causes all the other problems. Frogs DOWN
So you say....Frog up (completely solid) increases water retention, whereas frog down (with voids and pockets) doesn't retain moisture in those voids.... So, what you are saying is that The British Ceramic Research Association book I have, Model Specification for Load-bearing Clay Brickwork 1967, page 4, point 2.4.2..."single frogged bricks shall be laid uppermost on a full bed of mortar....all frogs shall be filled with mortar" is wrong?
Thank you
.. incidentally, the report also says, that extruded bricks are to have the holes unfilled to increase the thermal quality of the wall, as their strength exceeds that of a standard clay brick.
I have an excellent rep from the Sussex Brick Company who knows everything, I'll chat to him later.
@@robsonger1 Yes, its wrong. Like most things british.
Mortar is more porous than brick, and will absorb water more readily. That water sinks into the frog even if it's full of mortar, but worse when it has been furrowed, which for some reason is what most brickies do, they seem to take pride in their furrowing abilities. Why?
Don't furrow. Frogs down.
Even better, use solids without frogs.
First off those were not layed correctly in the first place. Secondly "frog up or down" won't matter as long as its done correctly in warm climates. "frog down" is correct in cold climates. Brick walls are not forever. A long time yes if maintained correctly... which most are not. When that wall starts to allow water in it's going to settle in the frog of the brick if it's layed "frog up". Then the freeze comes and suddenly the top of your chimney is breaking all apart as the ice breaks the bonds all around that brick and allows more water in next rain. In a perfect world they should stop making brick with frogs because 99% of bricklayers don't know this. BTW you can lay a "frog down" brick and still get a full bed joint however you will never be able to keep the water out of a brick layed "frog up" even if you fill every single brick perfectly. I have repaired enough of these in a cold climate to know this as a fact. If you lay a brick frog up in my area especially in a chimney where its most heavily weathered I will be fixing your mess. My best advice is to completly avoid this kind of brick if you can. There are much better choices out there.
Frogs serve for many reasons.
The main reason is to reduce the weight of the brick, so it is easier for repetitive handling. Another reason is by having a frog, slightly less clay is used meaning more can be produced, and final reason is frog up provides a 100% full bed, which gives a stronger wall, no moisture pockets, and gives the wall a longer life.
Bricks that are laid frog down firstly appear 'sad', as the clay mold gives the appearance of a smile...so if one bricklayer in a gang lays frog down this can often be seen, and stand out. Also, I have punched many many new doorways into old openings where the bricks are frog down and the bricks in between the needles fail, and drop. Finally, and what we were all taught, the moisture pockets freeze and in time add to deterioration.
Also imagine, a 3+ storey building, all the tonnes of brickwork resting on just the arris of the brick and empty frogs, in time will fail.
When I was an apprentice all the Clerk of Works tended to be bricklayers and ALL of them were so hot on checking that we all laid frog up for all the reasons mentioned.
@@robsonger1 They were all wrong then. They should have been checking that you had full frogs in a structural building but these bricks should never be used in a structural building in the first place. Yes, the frogs were to save money on clay. That was the only reason for the frog at all. These bricks should not even be on the market.
@@TractorWrangler01 Also to lateral movement.
@@robsonger1 So what happens when the mortar starts to fail and you have a wall with frogs up? Won't there be a freeze thaw issue when water collects in the frog? Have there been tests on this issue?
How did building control or the site agent pass it off has being okay?
Good advice,what do you think of pick and dip
I always use pick and dip.. if you watch my video "Monk Bond" it attempts to explain it, also my video "Strecther Bond - Keeping full joints"
sorry rob what I meant was pick and dip not buttering the brick
Frog down, Won't retain water and so much easier to lay....
Much prefer the holeys
Load bearing frog up non load bearing up or down
Frogs down for clowns
Has the wall failed in any way ,I'm not sure it doesn't look like it
It's only 4 years old.
But the one you can see already are the bricks are 'unhappy'....notice the mold formation?
Hop it.
NHBC guidelines used to require it...not heard it for a while now...but every single bricklayer I grew up with, and looked up to all were frog up.
Frog down started with the increase in price work and the need to get'm down...
@@robsonger1 The standard of bricks and brickwork have decreased over the years have a look at the bricks on the job I'm doing right now and they are 1 pound each ,There is a vid on my channel ,Its got to the point where they just have to go in
From the master he endth the lesson x
Chuck Norris builds a wall frog down and Rob Songer kicks it down and then kicks his ass 😂😂😂😂✅
Chuck Norris built the house he was born in with his bare hands. But he asked Rob the best way to do the brick work.
" RIBBIT RIBBIT "