Yes we know its frogs up guys im just trying to explain why and also dispel the myth that all frogs down are not fully filled which is seen in the example also showing that they can be not filled thats why its best to lay frog up so to be safe :)
I'm sure you already are aware but in Canada we're suppose to lay the bricks frog down, as laying the bricks frog up will likely cause the bricks to fail from our freeze/thaw cycles we have here.
Jason Van Leeuwen don't you sometimes question in your head how would the weather effect the brickwork just because they're put down different ways the weather doesn't know which way up they are, I could only presume that it could only effect the first course and last course if any as anything in between is protected the same no matter which way up, but see stu's point about pressure or load on older thinner brick, just thought I'd ask as I question lots of things that are not really proven in the moment, probably some I'll just never get answers to like why do they have locks on doors that's open 24/7 sorry, anyway take care
Steve A agree on manufacturing side. Bricks are crap. Not square no straight arrises. No brick should have a frog they’re all cheaply made. London brick to name one. And your gauge is wrong 3,6,9,12. So that’s wrong and it doesn’t tie in with block work
The advantage of frog up is that it makes it a lot easier to replace bricks or key into existing brickwork since you can easily fill a frog which is up as long as that sides exposed, but it's impossible to completely fill a frog facing down when it's already built into a wall
The correct is frog down, the mortar doesn't stick well under a flat surface, it's the reason you lay the mortar on the flat surface, and use the mortar as anchor for the next layer that will go on the top. The frog is just a gap for an anchor. Even with the wetness by capillary, the mortar will stick better on the down flat surface layer ,the wetness that makes part of the cure process, you spread more to the lower part than to the top part.
Amazing work. For me as a European Construction Engineer this video has answered a question I always had on frog bricks since we dont use these neither find them in stock to resolve this argument on site. Lastly, we only use a type of a smaller sized frog brick in traditional oven and fireplace construction and some of the masons here build them frog down which is now wrong. Great help and great advise from a younger mason. Keep up the good work.
AS A NOW RETIRED TIME SERVED BRICKLAYER ( YES, I KNOW I MADE IT AND I'M NOT A FUNNY SHAPE EITHER) I CAN STATE THAT IT IS ALWAYS UNDER ALL CIRCUMSTANCES, FROG UP. STUART THE REASON AND THE ONLY REASON THE FROG WAS INTRODUCED WAS TO PREVENT HORIZONTAL SLIP. ALSO THE WALL HAS TO MAINTAIN SOLIDITY FOR INTEGRITY AND ACOUSTIC VALUES. ASK ANY BRICKWORK ENGINEER (YES THEY DO EXIST).THE BEST EXAMPLE'S I KNOW OF FOR DOUBLE FROGGED BRICKS WERE THE OLD ACCRINGTON 'NORI' AND THE ST ANN SMOOTH. BY THE WAY I'M FROM BURNLEY AND I LIVE IN ACCRINGTON SO WE ARE NOT A MILLION MILES FROM EACH OTHER STU. ALL THE BEST YOUNG MAN.
ARNOLD HICKS but horizontal slip should, in theory happen with 4" 7Nm blocks, wall ties stop every other cource but what about the cource in between? Agree gauging is a pain in the arros with frog up though. Weakest part of the wall is dpc cource what about lateral slip there? Maybe engineering bricks, Staffordshire blues etc with the 3 hole principle is safer then.
In Belgium we have bricks similar to these with a smaller looking frog, it's not as deep as yours in UK. And every bricklayer I have seen lays them frog down. I have told many bricklayers that they lay them wrong, and they always say "I have laid more than a million bricks and they are still standing, these ain't going nowhere either". I try to explain them the reason and even the engineer was surprised by the explanation, yet they continue laying them the way they know. I also noticed one thing when laying them frog down, the mortar simply falls a bit due to it being soft while laying, and then leaves a small emptiness in the frog. By turning the frog upwards, the mortar simply can't go anywhere else and you are sure it's filled completely. I know it's been a while you posted it, but thank you for your video, I will share it with these stubborn Belgian bricklayers! 🙂🇧🇪
@@Stucrompton1 He made a video about the government using printers to spy on us but started with explaining about the frog of a brick and the debate of putting it up or down to confuse and government agents watching his video to click off. basically he started a revolution of bricks and frogs
The correct is frog down, the mortar doesn't stick well under a flat surface, it's the reason you lay the mortar on the top of flat surface, and use the mortar as anchor for the next layer that will go on the top. The frog is just a gap for an anchor. Even with the wetness by capillary, the mortar will stick better on the top of down flat surface layer ,the wetness that makes part of the cure process, you spread more to the lower part than to the top part.
Ive never layed a single brick in my life ! Im now trying to become youtube certified brick layer and you are so much help for my youtube corse. Thank you .. i believe go big or go home so im learning so my first project can be a seating area with firepit 😁
Good video stu, if we're doing an extension and matching into original brickwork then we use the frogs to our advantage. Tight bed and frog down just find it easier to run the line.But that is ONLY for extensions anything else and it's always frog up :) good advice on hear for you apprentices keep watching!! Much love
You can lay frog up and create voids in the bed joint. This is when the bricklayer is on price work and is being conservative with the mortar. No bricklayer on price work will fill the frog, up or down.
My house was built in the 80's, using the old type LBC brick with the large triangular shaped frogs. *OF COURSE* the muppets laid them frog *DOWN*, and the majority of frogs have voids in them. So getting larger wall anchors in without resin is a pointless game. I had to completely rebuild my garden wall because of how shocking the quality of the brickwork is. All the bricks loose and full of voids. And those muppets called themselves "Professionals"... yeah, not really.....
In the 1930s the bricks were made by hand in slop moulds and the indent required a wooden former in the bottom of the mould box. This looked like a crouching frog and the name stuck despite its reference to the indent.
I get the theory but even the small bump made by the frog down is a key enough to hold the wall together ain’t it? I know it’s easy to pull a brick off but bricks go on top of bricks creating a self made anchor don’t they
Just to back up my statement. Here is the spec sheet from Redland brick,instructing frog down. Scroll down to page # 3,lip & frog section.www.redlandbrick.com/downloads/202c.pdf
My house is built in Flemish bond solid brick (no cavity) and soft reds with lime mortar and is mid-Victorian. Seems to have been laid frog down. Bit of a difficulty when you come to repoint, as if the frog mortar falls out, it can be difficult or impossible to refill completely. My impression is that my house was built in this way for speed and economy rather than for sound technical reasons, but it's only a hunch.
I have just been removing a cement render from our old washhouse and found that the bricks were really loose at the top of the walls under the eaves and verges. I knocked a brick out to investigate and found that it was laid frog down wih no mortar in the frog so that the brick was "standing on it's toes". I also found that the perps were either not filled or that the mortar hadn't been pushed into proper contact with it's neighbour. As a result there was less than half of the brick surfaces actually adhered to those surrounding it! Lower in the wall the bricks were held in place as much by compression from the brickwork above as by the mortar. I think that the render was doing most of the work in resisting wind loads. I've always laid bricks with the frog up as it ensures that they are filled. The only time I didn't was the top course of a dwarf wall on which an aluminium framed greenhouse was to be fixed down by bolt anchors but I filled the frogs by trowel before laying the bricks down onto the mortar bed beneath.
I think sometimes we get all over excited about 'what is strongest or best' . Unless you were building 4 or 5 stories high just how strong and does a brick wall need to be? Even laying frog down and paying little attention to filling it there is more than enough contact area to hold its self weight on a 2 or 3 story dwelling. There is also the thought that any voids that occur frog up can hold water that may freeze whereas frog down the water leeches out of the mortar. If I had to buy the mortar I'd be laying frog down.
I was taught as a rule to lay the frog down. I think there's benefits to doing it either way, but it's just surprising to me that my teacher might have been wrong LOL!
Thanks for that, I used to lay frog down for years, built many houses like that as it was much faster and I didn't think about it much, but now you explained it here I feel so guilty I may have left some vulnerable house walls about. I'll have to go around the houses now, just to see if anything is up after 30 years :-)
College tutor used to give us a right bollockin if we laid them frog down, so we used to wait while he'd gone away an lash as many as we could down before he came back and checked on our models, he caught me and made me take it down and re start it all ha ha 1 way of getting you out of bad habits, although they lay so much easier.
Feels like it keys in better laying it down. When you know you've used a fair amount of mortar and you picture that all going off solid, it just seems right. Whether it's up or down, it's still transferring load through it and as long as the margin isn't carrying the brunt of that transfer to the foundation why would it matter really. Lower course bricks are likely concrete/engineering anyway so it can only be that it's easier to see that you have placed enough mortar on it for the next course as a benefit of it being up.
Don't furrow. Over here in the states bricks that are moulded are struck on top which makes the bottom irregular. When moulded or common brick are laid and jointed a frog down produces a better looking wall.
james morgan and when you spread your mortar you don’t have to worry about mortar falling down a cavity like us so we have to spread it in a way that little if nothing goes down the cavity I’ve seen videos were in America no one cleans off there snots on the back of there wall but they do look nice when there done lol
Well,first off,the frogs you guys have on those brick in the U.K. are as deep as our Grand Canyon here in the states. Also,I would not furrow bricks if I were to lay frog down. Lastly,the few companies in the States that make bricks with frogs,have posted on their web sites FROGS DOWN. One company is Cushwa brick or Redland brick.
We built a bungalow last year using a similar frog brick and the NHBC let us lay em frog down after contacting them , purely for the fact they are a pain to lay to gauge, having said that I wouldn't lay an LBC fog down...
You lay bricks frog down NOT up, the sole reason why.......When you lay them frog up moister lays within the pocket, winter frost comes along which freezes the moister which in turn expands resulting in a damaged brick, I might add it will take many years for the brick to lose its structural strength through frost damage
Michael Eldridge 9in solid brick walls get moister in them and them bricks have no frogs the way the moister is released is from the lime mortar as it breaths
@@kierenboimufc5940 Not the case at all. My house was built in the C19 or earlier from very soft red bricks and lime mortar. Having worked on it, I can confirm that the bricks are frogged, and that they are laid frog down. And yes, they are 9" solid walls, laid in Flemish bond.
Frog up or down none of us will be alive to see the crumble of the old houses we once built,, its all for profit on site anyway greedy twats always wanting more for sitting in warm offices!!! i lay either way, long as my money goes into my account every week i couldnt give a #%#$ and im a proud bricky very neat n tidy its all a game for money on site so i play the game!!!! if i built private work for good money id lay frog up all the time, just faster on line frog down, i 100% fill my frogs when laying down 40ml beds when spreading so i dout anyway that there never not filled!!! Stu you do this youtube proudly mate well done keep it up
Talking about the LBC brick always deep frogs. Stu right or wrong we all lay frog down when trying to get bricks down which is much easier. Like you said big beds needed never have that problem in Melbourne. Always welcome mate and the golf is out of this world. Plus you can do some work with me happy days
Almost every old house I've worked on used frog down with weak sand lime mortar. When old house structures fail it's because of weak foundations not the bond mortar has on the bricks. I agree frog up is better but it's difficult to justify. I bet most of the new build houses that have gone up over the last decades will suffer more problems than older ones built using frog down. Just my opinion.
Nope, because the frog is filled automatically when you lay it UP. You have no choice but to fill it. Even if you insists on spreading mortar on the sides only, as soon as you put the next brick on top, it will squish the mortar into the frog, filling it up.
regardless of the width of the margin, if a brick is laid frog down and the frog not 100% filled, it will reduces the compressive strength of the brick, this is acknowledged by the BDA.
Did a city and guilds apprenticeship in bricklaying in 89 ,we were using LBC brick , tutor phoned LBC,and asked the question ,it came back no difference 🤔🤔
I'm not a bricky but in my capacity as a plasterer I've had to lay bricks to fill in window openings or doorways and in the attic of a 300 yr old house I found these old blocks of a white lightweight plaster with 3 to 4 lengths of bamboo embedded inside and the surface had haired lime plaster fixed to it. a small inverted 'frog' or groove on one end and an extruded frog on the other with a wavy line pattern on the side. So I don't think it matters too much which way a frog brick is laid because once the mortar sets, especially cement, then the frog acts as an anchor I would think and the only negative point about the frog facing up is that any moisture could sit i n it, so surely facing down would be better. I have worked on plenty of constructions where the companies engineers have made some very dodgy and stupid decisions like an old company from Bridgwater who were the contractors on the Taunton Museum restructuring and renovation. For the 1st 2 courses of the walls of the new restaurant block they used the lightweight Duroc block followed by the normal brickwork and inside on one of the upper levels when we took off the render to expose the brickwork there were a few structural cracks caused by the weight of the roof and the metal RSJ's that spanned the room. I asked their engineer how he wanted me to fix the cracks, thinking that I would have used several metal lengths of strapping and he said ''Point in the crack and render over for the 3 coat work''. So we did and 7 years on it's still good, no cracking. In general there is too much overkill with strengthening walls when a thicker brickwork is perfectly good, also use a sharp angular sand for mortar not the finer particle stuff which is prone to fall over when the wall is 1 brick thin. You maybe surprised to learn Stu that cement continues to harden for up to 6 years after it's been laid I use mostly lime putty mortars or a Roman style 'cement' for strength like the base of some of the stone walls I've made, but for large spans and very high walls cement mortar is generally better.
Hi Stu good talking point, Mervyn D makes a point LBC London brick company hoddies nightmare you will use more sand than any other brick.not as popular now a days save more money for the builder, good vid's keep them up. Mick
The correct is frog down, the mortar doesn't stick well under a flat surface, it's the reason you lay the mortar on the flat surface, and use the mortar as anchor for the next layer that will go on the top. The frog is just a gap for an anchor. Even with the wetness by capillary, the mortar will stick better on the down flat surface layer ,the wetness that makes part of the cure process, you spread more to the lower part than to the top part.
Could you tell me how to calculate how many bricks in a given measurement, say I had 3.9m length free standing wall would I divide length of the brick into 3.9m then calculate width of joint then take this sum from the 3.9m to see what cut brick would be plus width of extra joint, cheers
Remember 40 + years ago bricky paid per 1000 would lay frog down and would not bother to use much mortar on bed... Years later cracks in those walls. Always frog up... Good post.
frog-up to spread the load across the entire brick does not make sense, because the mortar shrinks in time - and the brick actually expands a little. When the frog mortar has shrunk you are only resting on the lip of the brick. In my opinion a brick is like a dinner plate, for example: there is a single circumferential rim through which the load is transferred to the table. This gives you better stability. I bet you a frog-up wall bows and buckles before a frog-down wall (if you use proper mortar that is - if you use portland you are condemning the wall to a short life regardless)
Frost will get in what ever up or down cause of the cement. Cement doesn't move with the building and hairline cracks appear. Moisture gets in, freeze thaw happens, opens the mortar further more water frost ect. Repainting required. The best bed is no bed like dry stone walking. Anyway rant over. Keep up the good work Stu you ate an inspiration
Well bricks and block need mortar. Can't dry lay a brick wall and expect it to keep out moisture. And some cement with plasticizer in it will allow some movement.
Ever had the Forman kick over your work & get a second day on a crap job - It use to happen but the pinch is always on for a few quid & time all the way round......
Truth is, frogs started as branding. Somewhere to put the brick manufacturers name. The misconception for mortar key became ingrained with bricklayers, and the manufacturers went along with it because it saved a bit of material and weight. Any strength gain from pressing into the mold corners better was nullified by losing a portion of the brick. Voussoirs are never frogged because they are important bricks. And should highlight the incorrect arguments for strength and mortar key. Bricks structures are monolithed by mass, compression, friction, engagement... NOT mortar. Mortar is not supposed to be an adhesive, yet almost every engineer, bricklayer, textbook, youtuber, building standard, describes it as the glue between bricks. So wrong. Our freemason fathers would be climbing out of their graves if they knew the current level of knowledge, and the sham buildings we make today.
Frog down its twice as easy and the bicks lay like lego... nhbc just over the top now days! Just try to stop you earning. Tie wire ever 3 corse 150mm in from the corners... whats all that about! A new 1 now... no commons under lintals give the price brickys a break NHBC we gotta bang the down with the peanuts prices we get
Here's the official explanation from LBC, on why Frogs need to go *UP*. Very much inline with what Stu was explaining in the video www.ibstock.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/08/Ibstock-TIS-B18-FROG-UP-OR-DOWN.pdf
Only people for the US lay frogs down......like pulling teeth trying to explain to them that its wrong....they say that if u lay frog up moisture will sit in it and spauld the face of the brick....I'm sorry but I'm going to guess that you lads in the UK get way more then the US and doesn't seem you guys are having moisture problems for moisture sitting in the frog. From Canada and we are always told to frog up! They can keep their imperial system and their upside down frogs
Someone need to show us a video on how to keep you cavities spotless at damp corse with blown insilation!!! U will make a fortune. We tent to leave ever other block out and scoop it out every other day but some leave the corners of the brickwork out a pull a lengh of hessian through. Some put 4x1 in the cavities all the way up but its all time consuming and you lose money.
What a legend. Will try that monday. Cant wait to go back too... the missis got me a new W.Rose trowel for christmas. LETS AV ITTTT 2020. hopefully weather picks up a bit for us price brickys
We’re about you on a price mate? I was on price last year 600 a 1000 and 16m on blockwork had some real good days get the hoddy to take u a bucket of sand up with ya mate works better than any other trick and I’m only a young trowl 26 been on since was 15 had my own gang when was on price
The reason for a frog in a brick is purely to save clay , less clay means more money for the brick manufacturer . Nothing to do with making it easier to get out of the mold . U never c frogs in old reclaimed bricks 👌🏻
They are made this way 'cause it anchors the mortar in the brick, it works of the same way of to cross the joints. The frog has the same role of the hole in other bricks.
Yes we know its frogs up guys im just trying to explain why and also dispel the myth that all frogs down are not fully filled which is seen in the example also showing that they can be not filled thats why its best to lay frog up so to be safe :)
I'm sure you already are aware but in Canada we're suppose to lay the bricks frog down, as laying the bricks frog up will likely cause the bricks to fail from our freeze/thaw cycles we have here.
Jason Van Leeuwen don't you sometimes question in your head how would the weather effect the brickwork just because they're put down different ways the weather doesn't know which way up they are, I could only presume that it could only effect the first course and last course if any as anything in between is protected the same no matter which way up, but see stu's point about pressure or load on older thinner brick, just thought I'd ask as I question lots of things that are not really proven in the moment, probably some I'll just never get answers to like why do they have locks on doors that's open 24/7 sorry, anyway take care
Steve A agree on manufacturing side. Bricks are crap. Not square no straight arrises. No brick should have a frog they’re all cheaply made. London brick to name one. And your gauge is wrong 3,6,9,12. So that’s wrong and it doesn’t tie in with block work
The advantage of frog up is that it makes it a lot easier to replace bricks or key into existing brickwork since you can easily fill a frog which is up as long as that sides exposed, but it's impossible to completely fill a frog facing down when it's already built into a wall
came from half as interesting, i had to know what way to lay the bricks
Me too. I never seen or heard of those even thought I worked on a construction site before!
I thought I was the only one who was genuinely interested
The correct is frog down, the mortar doesn't stick well under a flat surface, it's the reason you lay the mortar on the flat surface, and use the mortar as anchor for the next layer that will go on the top. The frog is just a gap for an anchor. Even with the wetness by capillary, the mortar will stick better on the down flat surface layer ,the wetness that makes part of the cure process, you spread more to the lower part than to the top part.
I thought I was the only one lol
For a total beginner, that is really interesting! Thank you 😊
Came from
HAI video. Had to google to see if this was even real!
Amazing work. For me as a European Construction Engineer this video has answered a question I always had on frog bricks since we dont use these neither find them in stock to resolve this argument on site. Lastly, we only use a type of a smaller sized frog brick in traditional oven and fireplace construction and some of the masons here build them frog down which is now wrong. Great help and great advise from a younger mason. Keep up the good work.
AS A NOW RETIRED TIME SERVED BRICKLAYER ( YES, I KNOW I MADE IT AND I'M NOT A FUNNY SHAPE EITHER) I CAN STATE THAT IT IS ALWAYS UNDER ALL
CIRCUMSTANCES, FROG UP. STUART THE REASON AND THE ONLY REASON THE FROG WAS INTRODUCED WAS TO PREVENT HORIZONTAL SLIP. ALSO THE WALL HAS TO MAINTAIN SOLIDITY FOR INTEGRITY AND ACOUSTIC VALUES. ASK ANY BRICKWORK ENGINEER (YES THEY DO EXIST).THE BEST EXAMPLE'S I KNOW OF FOR DOUBLE FROGGED BRICKS WERE THE OLD ACCRINGTON 'NORI' AND THE ST ANN SMOOTH. BY THE WAY I'M FROM BURNLEY
AND I LIVE IN ACCRINGTON SO WE ARE NOT A MILLION MILES FROM EACH OTHER STU. ALL THE BEST YOUNG MAN.
i agree with that Arnold thanks mate
ARNOLD HICKS not many Lancashire brickies make retirement standing up straight. We'll done.
ARNOLD HICKS but horizontal slip should, in theory happen with 4" 7Nm blocks, wall ties stop every other cource but what about the cource in between? Agree gauging is a pain in the arros with frog up though. Weakest part of the wall is dpc cource what about lateral slip there? Maybe engineering bricks, Staffordshire blues etc with the 3 hole principle is safer then.
In Belgium we have bricks similar to these with a smaller looking frog, it's not as deep as yours in UK. And every bricklayer I have seen lays them frog down. I have told many bricklayers that they lay them wrong, and they always say "I have laid more than a million bricks and they are still standing, these ain't going nowhere either". I try to explain them the reason and even the engineer was surprised by the explanation, yet they continue laying them the way they know. I also noticed one thing when laying them frog down, the mortar simply falls a bit due to it being soft while laying, and then leaves a small emptiness in the frog. By turning the frog upwards, the mortar simply can't go anywhere else and you are sure it's filled completely. I know it's been a while you posted it, but thank you for your video, I will share it with these stubborn Belgian bricklayers! 🙂🇧🇪
Here from Half as Interesting
What’s that?
@@Stucrompton1 He made a video about the government using printers to spy on us but started with explaining about the frog of a brick and the debate of putting it up or down to confuse and government agents watching his video to click off. basically he started a revolution of bricks and frogs
@@Stucrompton1 a CZcams channel. Their last video started with a bit about brick frogs.
The correct is frog down, the mortar doesn't stick well under a flat surface, it's the reason you lay the mortar on the top of flat surface, and use the mortar as anchor for the next layer that will go on the top. The frog is just a gap for an anchor. Even with the wetness by capillary, the mortar will stick better on the top of down flat surface layer ,the wetness that makes part of the cure process, you spread more to the lower part than to the top part.
Ive never layed a single brick in my life ! Im now trying to become youtube certified brick layer and you are so much help for my youtube corse. Thank you .. i believe go big or go home so im learning so my first project can be a seating area with firepit 😁
You will end up better than the new NVQ brickies no doubt.
@@keithdechief1 it's all finished. Check it out on my CZcams channel
I’m not even a bricklayer and I enjoyed the video 👍🏼
From HAI, Still dont understand
When building Lego, the 🐸 is on the bottom, can't see why it's a problem for bricks 🤔
Good video stu, if we're doing an extension and matching into original brickwork then we use the frogs to our advantage. Tight bed and frog down just find it easier to run the line.But that is ONLY for extensions anything else and it's always frog up :) good advice on hear for you apprentices keep watching!! Much love
You can lay frog up and create voids in the bed joint. This is when the bricklayer is on price work and is being conservative with the mortar. No bricklayer on price work will fill the frog, up or down.
My house was built in the 80's, using the old type LBC brick with the large triangular shaped frogs. *OF COURSE* the muppets laid them frog *DOWN*, and the majority of frogs have voids in them. So getting larger wall anchors in without resin is a pointless game.
I had to completely rebuild my garden wall because of how shocking the quality of the brickwork is. All the bricks loose and full of voids. And those muppets called themselves "Professionals"... yeah, not really.....
why is it called a frog?
In the 1930s the bricks were made by hand in slop moulds and the indent required a wooden former in the bottom of the mould box. This looked like a crouching frog and the name stuck despite its reference to the indent.
I get the theory but even the small bump made by the frog down is a key enough to hold the wall together ain’t it?
I know it’s easy to pull a brick off but bricks go on top of bricks creating a self made anchor don’t they
Just to back up my statement. Here is the spec sheet from Redland brick,instructing frog down. Scroll down to page # 3,lip & frog section.www.redlandbrick.com/downloads/202c.pdf
interesting Fred
My house is built in Flemish bond solid brick (no cavity) and soft reds with lime mortar and is mid-Victorian. Seems to have been laid frog down. Bit of a difficulty when you come to repoint, as if the frog mortar falls out, it can be difficult or impossible to refill completely.
My impression is that my house was built in this way for speed and economy rather than for sound technical reasons, but it's only a hunch.
I have just been removing a cement render from our old washhouse and found that the bricks were really loose at the top of the walls under the eaves and verges. I knocked a brick out to investigate and found that it was laid frog down wih no mortar in the frog so that the brick was "standing on it's toes". I also found that the perps were either not filled or that the mortar hadn't been pushed into proper contact with it's neighbour. As a result there was less than half of the brick surfaces actually adhered to those surrounding it! Lower in the wall the bricks were held in place as much by compression from the brickwork above as by the mortar. I think that the render was doing most of the work in resisting wind loads. I've always laid bricks with the frog up as it ensures that they are filled. The only time I didn't was the top course of a dwarf wall on which an aluminium framed greenhouse was to be fixed down by bolt anchors but I filled the frogs by trowel before laying the bricks down onto the mortar bed beneath.
I think sometimes we get all over excited about 'what is strongest or best' . Unless you were building 4 or 5 stories high just how strong and does a brick wall need to be? Even laying frog down and paying little attention to filling it there is more than enough contact area to hold its self weight on a 2 or 3 story dwelling. There is also the thought that any voids that occur frog up can hold water that may freeze whereas frog down the water leeches out of the mortar. If I had to buy the mortar I'd be laying frog down.
I was taught as a rule to lay the frog down. I think there's benefits to doing it either way, but it's just surprising to me that my teacher might have been wrong LOL!
Depends on if you need to tighten down on gauge ie to top of a window ever one does it
Thanks for that, I used to lay frog down for years, built many houses like that as it was much faster and I didn't think about it much, but now you explained it here I feel so guilty I may have left some vulnerable house walls about. I'll have to go around the houses now, just to see if anything is up after 30 years :-)
College tutor used to give us a right bollockin if we laid them frog down, so we used to wait while he'd gone away an lash as many as we could down before he came back and checked on our models, he caught me and made me take it down and re start it all ha ha 1 way of getting you out of bad habits, although they lay so much easier.
Feels like it keys in better laying it down. When you know you've used a fair amount of mortar and you picture that all going off solid, it just seems right. Whether it's up or down, it's still transferring load through it and as long as the margin isn't carrying the brunt of that transfer to the foundation why would it matter really. Lower course bricks are likely concrete/engineering anyway so it can only be that it's easier to see that you have placed enough mortar on it for the next course as a benefit of it being up.
Exactly what I was looking for-cheers 👍
This was an interesting video. Could you do a video on furrowing vs flattening mortar beds?
Frog up, Toad down, that’s my motto.
Rounded side up , Stu . The joints should be full anyway !
Heres what you do, frig the bricks off with frogs and get solid bricks that way your using less mortar over the entirety of the build.
Frog saves clay makes brick lighter for shipping
I"m sure i"d seen old brickies in the "70"s laying frog-down but buttering some compo into the frog before turning & laying :]
How come you don't build a brick wall in your garden instead of that fence?
It's probably not his fence.hehe, lol your neighbour always owns and is responsible for 1 side.
Don't furrow. Over here in the states bricks that are moulded are struck on top which makes the bottom irregular. When moulded or common brick are laid and jointed a frog down produces a better looking wall.
james morgan and when you spread your mortar you don’t have to worry about mortar falling down a cavity like us so we have to spread it in a way that little if nothing goes down the cavity I’ve seen videos were in America no one cleans off there snots on the back of there wall but they do look nice when there done lol
Well,first off,the frogs you guys have on those brick in the U.K. are as deep as our Grand Canyon here in the states. Also,I would not furrow bricks if I were to lay frog down. Lastly,the few companies in the States that make bricks with frogs,have posted on their web sites FROGS DOWN. One company is Cushwa brick or Redland brick.
I'm in Canada. Frogs down is what I was taught. I don't know the code though. Nice comment though Fred.
We built a bungalow last year using a similar frog brick and the NHBC let us lay em frog down after contacting them , purely for the fact they are a pain to lay to gauge, having said that I wouldn't lay an LBC fog down...
Thanks Stu I often wondered not being a bricky which way love your videos
You lay bricks frog down NOT up, the sole reason why.......When you lay them frog up moister lays within the pocket, winter frost comes along which freezes the moister which in turn expands resulting in a damaged brick, I might add it will take many years for the brick to lose its structural strength through frost damage
What if it were a soft red with lime mortar? Would the water then not just soak through and disperse regardless of the frog orientation?
Michael Eldridge 9in solid brick walls get moister in them and them bricks have no frogs the way the moister is released is from the lime mortar as it breaths
@@kierenboimufc5940 Not the case at all. My house was built in the C19 or earlier from very soft red bricks and lime mortar. Having worked on it, I can confirm that the bricks are frogged, and that they are laid frog down. And yes, they are 9" solid walls, laid in Flemish bond.
I find for the base course its perfect for gripping the ground but for the upper course i lay frog up
Frog up or down none of us will be alive to see the crumble of the old houses we once built,, its all for profit on site anyway greedy twats always wanting more for sitting in warm offices!!! i lay either way, long as my money goes into my account every week i couldnt give a #%#$ and im a proud bricky very neat n tidy its all a game for money on site so i play the game!!!! if i built private work for good money id lay frog up all the time, just faster on line frog down, i 100% fill my frogs when laying down 40ml beds when spreading so i dout anyway that there never not filled!!! Stu you do this youtube proudly mate well done keep it up
Hi Dale do all bricks have frogs or do some just come smooth both sides ??
yes Gary, some bricks don't have frogs. I call them floaters. They are less forgiving to lay though. I am not a fan.
Talking about the LBC brick always deep frogs. Stu right or wrong we all lay frog down when trying to get bricks down which is much easier. Like you said big beds needed never have that problem in Melbourne. Always welcome mate and the golf is out of this world. Plus you can do some work with me happy days
i just need find a way to get over for a bit mate
stu crompton when your ready not moving back for sure😂 giggle sand belt courses Melbourne
BRRRRICKK FROOOGG!!
Almost every old house I've worked on used frog down with weak sand lime mortar. When old house structures fail it's because of weak foundations not the bond mortar has on the bricks. I agree frog up is better but it's difficult to justify. I bet most of the new build houses that have gone up over the last decades will suffer more problems than older ones built using frog down. Just my opinion.
Frog up slows ya down haha
Silly question from non-builder - couldn't water get easier and stay longer in a frog up scenario, thus doing more damage?
Nope, because the frog is filled automatically when you lay it UP. You have no choice but to fill it. Even if you insists on spreading mortar on the sides only, as soon as you put the next brick on top, it will squish the mortar into the frog, filling it up.
Good question Luc. In Canada it's frogs down.
Good demo Stu. Much easier to guarantee full frog if laid frog up. Frogs are just the brick industry going cheap.
not cheap at jewson mate i just paid 9.58 for 8 bricks lol
stu crompton that's Jewsons for you Stu!
Should also add heavily 'rustificated' bricks layed frog down water can sit in the defects on the face rather than run off with been laid frog up.
Thanks mate! simple and professional video!
regardless of the width of the margin, if a brick is laid frog down and the frog not 100% filled, it will reduces the compressive strength of the brick, this is acknowledged by the BDA.
Did a city and guilds apprenticeship in bricklaying in 89 ,we were using LBC brick , tutor phoned LBC,and asked the question ,it came back no difference 🤔🤔
I'm not a bricky but in my capacity as a plasterer I've had to lay bricks to fill in window openings or doorways and in the attic of a 300 yr old house I found these old blocks of a white lightweight plaster with 3 to 4 lengths of bamboo embedded inside and the surface had haired lime plaster fixed to it. a small inverted 'frog' or groove on one end and an extruded frog on the other with a wavy line pattern on the side.
So I don't think it matters too much which way a frog brick is laid because once the mortar sets, especially cement, then the frog acts as an anchor I would think and the only negative point about the frog facing up is that any moisture could sit i n it, so surely facing down would be better.
I have worked on plenty of constructions where the companies engineers have made some very dodgy and stupid decisions like an old company from Bridgwater who were the contractors on the Taunton Museum restructuring and renovation.
For the 1st 2 courses of the walls of the new restaurant block they used the lightweight Duroc block followed by the normal brickwork and inside on one of the upper levels when we took off the render to expose the brickwork there were a few structural cracks caused by the weight of the roof and the metal RSJ's that spanned the room.
I asked their engineer how he wanted me to fix the cracks, thinking that I would have used several metal lengths of strapping and he said ''Point in the crack and render over for the 3 coat work''. So we did and 7 years on it's still good, no cracking.
In general there is too much overkill with strengthening walls when a thicker brickwork is perfectly good, also use a sharp angular sand for mortar not the finer particle stuff which is prone to fall over when the wall is 1 brick thin.
You maybe surprised to learn Stu that cement continues to harden for up to 6 years after it's been laid I use mostly lime putty mortars or a Roman style 'cement' for strength like the base of some of the stone walls I've made, but for large spans and very high walls cement mortar is generally better.
How does one lay a brick with two frogs on both sides? 🐸🐸
You’d think you’d use far more mortar as it gets lost in the frog? Better for the Brick Manufacture worse for the consumer as you need more mortar.
Hahaha. There's more than one way to skin a cat...but your way is the best!? LOL cheers.
Frog up always. Especially with a feathered brick.
Always frog up especially l.b.c bricks.
Hi Stu good talking point, Mervyn D makes a point LBC London brick company hoddies nightmare you will use more sand than any other brick.not as popular now a days save more money for the builder, good vid's keep them up. Mick
The frog also saves brick material,! 👍👍🇬🇧
thats true Dave
The correct is frog down, the mortar doesn't stick well under a flat surface, it's the reason you lay the mortar on the flat surface, and use the mortar as anchor for the next layer that will go on the top. The frog is just a gap for an anchor. Even with the wetness by capillary, the mortar will stick better on the down flat surface layer ,the wetness that makes part of the cure process, you spread more to the lower part than to the top part.
frog down is fine, just don't furrow the mud like that. frog side is usually not as true as the "top"
Could you tell me how to calculate how many bricks in a given measurement, say I had 3.9m length free standing wall would I divide length of the brick into 3.9m then calculate width of joint then take this sum from the 3.9m to see what cut brick would be plus width of extra joint, cheers
You would think they'd have developed a way to make bricks without frogs and holes by now.
Remember 40 + years ago bricky paid per 1000 would lay frog down and would not bother to use much mortar on bed... Years later cracks in those walls. Always frog up... Good post.
Unless you have to grind down haha
thats true mate lol
We are allowed to lay frog down but I still lay frog up as with the bricks we are using its easier.
Great Work, Well Done!
You can only see the frog is filled if you lift the brick , so pointless really.
Smashing vid stu can you do a vid on why you had a hard time on your apprenticeship
yeah jordan pal
Top man
frog-up to spread the load across the entire brick does not make sense, because the mortar shrinks in time - and the brick actually expands a little. When the frog mortar has shrunk you are only resting on the lip of the brick. In my opinion a brick is like a dinner plate, for example: there is a single circumferential rim through which the load is transferred to the table. This gives you better stability. I bet you a frog-up wall bows and buckles before a frog-down wall (if you use proper mortar that is - if you use portland you are condemning the wall to a short life regardless)
I only frog down if I’m trying to lose a few mil
Always frog up
The outer edge is known as the margin
Frogs down when you’re on price it’s whatever’s the quickest 👍
Frog down is fine and much nicer to lay, but doing mostly extensions we always have to go frog up as site brickies love a fat joints !
The out edge of a brick is called the margin
Thought it was damp gets under the joints over the years frost and blows the face off
Yes that and the pressure on the sides Gary
Frost will get in what ever up or down cause of the cement. Cement doesn't move with the building and hairline cracks appear. Moisture gets in, freeze thaw happens, opens the mortar further more water frost ect. Repainting required. The best bed is no bed like dry stone walking. Anyway rant over. Keep up the good work Stu you ate an inspiration
Well bricks and block need mortar. Can't dry lay a brick wall and expect it to keep out moisture. And some cement with plasticizer in it will allow some movement.
In the UK in 1978, frog up.
near a busy road....down : ) balls to the foreman..
lol ted
Ever had the Forman kick over your work & get a second day on a crap job - It use to happen but the pinch is always on for a few quid & time all the way round......
yep last week. I walked off the site. Sorry that happened to you too.
Truth is, frogs started as branding. Somewhere to put the brick manufacturers name.
The misconception for mortar key became ingrained with bricklayers, and the manufacturers went along with it because it saved a bit of material and weight.
Any strength gain from pressing into the mold corners better was nullified by losing a portion of the brick.
Voussoirs are never frogged because they are important bricks. And should highlight the incorrect arguments for strength and mortar key.
Bricks structures are monolithed by mass, compression, friction, engagement... NOT mortar.
Mortar is not supposed to be an adhesive, yet almost every engineer, bricklayer, textbook, youtuber, building standard, describes it as the glue between bricks.
So wrong.
Our freemason fathers would be climbing out of their graves if they knew the current level of knowledge, and the sham buildings we make today.
up because if not it creates a small void and its weaker
true but does depend on how you spread also the depth of the frog as i show if in the video but best to be safe and lay frog up
Frog up
Why even make the video. It's not a debate
Not it’s cause you have to fill the frog down it holds water
Frog up for strength.
Frog up reason =smile not grin
Frog down its twice as easy and the bicks lay like lego... nhbc just over the top now days! Just try to stop you earning. Tie wire ever 3 corse 150mm in from the corners... whats all that about! A new 1 now... no commons under lintals give the price brickys a break NHBC we gotta bang the down with the peanuts prices we get
Here's the official explanation from LBC, on why Frogs need to go *UP*. Very much inline with what Stu was explaining in the video
www.ibstock.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/08/Ibstock-TIS-B18-FROG-UP-OR-DOWN.pdf
👍
Why have a frog???
reduce weight and material cost, for every 5 or 6 frogs would make another brick
Frown Down
Only people for the US lay frogs down......like pulling teeth trying to explain to them that its wrong....they say that if u lay frog up moisture will sit in it and spauld the face of the brick....I'm sorry but I'm going to guess that you lads in the UK get way more then the US and doesn't seem you guys are having moisture problems for moisture sitting in the frog. From Canada and we are always told to frog up! They can keep their imperial system and their upside down frogs
Someone need to show us a video on how to keep you cavities spotless at damp corse with blown insilation!!! U will make a fortune. We tent to leave ever other block out and scoop it out every other day but some leave the corners of the brickwork out a pull a lengh of hessian through. Some put 4x1 in the cavities all the way up but its all time consuming and you lose money.
Put sand and the bottom of the tray mate doesn’t stick at all with the muck droppings comes out spotless when you want to clean it
Great tip
Just needs to be nicely scattered all the way through mate,
Can’t wait to get back Monday earning some money !
What a legend. Will try that monday. Cant wait to go back too... the missis got me a new W.Rose trowel for christmas. LETS AV ITTTT 2020. hopefully weather picks up a bit for us price brickys
We’re about you on a price mate? I was on price last year 600 a 1000 and 16m on blockwork had some real good days get the hoddy to take u a bucket of sand up with ya mate works better than any other trick and I’m only a young trowl 26 been on since was 15 had my own gang when was on price
The reason for a frog in a brick is purely to save clay , less clay means more money for the brick manufacturer . Nothing to do with making it easier to get out of the mold . U never c frogs in old reclaimed bricks 👌🏻
My house is 1978 at the latest. All the bricks are frogged.
They are made this way 'cause it anchors the mortar in the brick, it works of the same way of to cross the joints. The frog has the same role of the hole in other bricks.
Nonsense?
Frog up 🤦♂️🤦♂️🤦♂️🤦♂️
Frog down, brick can pop in extreme cases. Always frog up!
Lbc bricks are crap
Agreed ray
Made buy Hanson now I believe you have to Chuck most of then away because there chipped and when they blow they blow big time from frost damage
You are wrong, dude
There is a right way and a wrong way to do everything in life. Frog up is the right way and frog down is the wrong way. It’s not for debate really.
Someone's done a jobie on your brick