How Long Do Lacquers Really Last?
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- čas přidán 25. 11. 2021
- This video refutes with evidence you will hear, The In Groove channel's ( • A New John Coltrane A ... ) uninformed and absolutely false story about the longevity of lacquers, claiming they "rapidly deteroriate" and turn to dust.They do not. Should a freshly cut lacquer meant to produce records be quickly plated? Yes of course. That's a different conversation.
Worse he maliciously attacks the people at Supersense who in conjunction with UMG are releasing a series of lacquers cut from copies of master tapes. There's really no point in arguing about it because in this video the 27 and 16 year old oft-played lacquers do this "talking". Whether or not you want to spend circa $450 on one is another story.....But let's start with some truth.... - Věda a technologie
To answer your question, I’d much rather spend $400 on a stack of great records than for a single lacquer.
That is fair enough!
I don’t understand your aggressive way of talking about Mike. I really appreciate his passion and advices ..
absolutely!!
I like InGroove Mike. Obviously Fremer is in a league of his own when it comes to Analogue knowledge, But In Groove Mike also has a lot of knowledge to share especially when it comes to collecting and you get honest opinions about audiophile releases. He recently talked about ERC releases. He basically summed them up as great, but not $400 better than other well made full analogue releases. I feel like he is saying that those of us who will never own lacquers are not missing some other worldly experience. Everyone with a youtube channel rants... How else are you going to pad out 15 minute videos?
I never said he’s not knowledgeable. This video proves he’s not correct about lacquers. That’s all.
You must have watched a different video. The one I watched was angry, dismissive and used a customer repack to put down the label by showing a seam split, microabrasions caused by his customer repacking minus the rice paper inner sleeve in which every ERC is packed and then making an issue of a tiny pressing defect in the second LP. Everything in that video could have been done using a MoFi, an Analogue Production or any other label’s less than perfect record. But he chose the one he cannot sell. His was an unfair takedown of another man’s hard and honest work that somehow you defend because Esposito has provided you with useful education in other areas. For that you are willing to excuse his bad behavior. Your call.
He also was wrong about the Craft reissue which cut from digital and he did not know about the Roy Dunann curve and how bright and unpleasant is that Craft digital cut is because he recommended it nor somehow did he hear it or was he able to distinguish it from the far better sounding original or the better sounding ERC both of which compensate correctly for the curve. His take on lacquers is clearly misinformed but what’s really clear is that you buy into whatever he says and dismiss any evidence of his being wrong and or misinformed.
Are you positive,This site is professionally informative.Thanks.
@@AnalogPlanet He was pissed for $500 you get poorly made album including ink marked edges on worn covers (literally altered at the factory from the original), scratches and glue on on album cover, poorly printed artwork, etc. I’d be pissed as hell if I got crap like this straight from the factory after spending that much money. Must be nice to get all your ERC releases for free so you shill for them. Incredible the backhanded deals reviewers get.
Hi Michael, I respect all you do for the VC but I think you missed the point of Mike’s at the In Groove latest video. As a poor man collecting vinyl for over 40 years I greatly appreciate the In groove perspective on all thing vinyl and it helps me (and I’m sure many others) make informed decisions, your channel has also done the same. Its my opinion you were a little to critical (although as a writer thats part of your job) of in grooves video, it appears you have not watched many or enough of his videos. I truly admire what both of you do for the VC and hope you both continue to give the VC great content. Peace!
M.F. is well renowned for shooting from the hip at times and can come across as a bit aggressive.
@@Baz63 Excuse me, but it is a very angry Mike Esposito who “shot from the hip” in a video about lacquer fragility. It was a very dismissive and dishonest Mike Esposito who did a vicious takedown of a record label (ERC), when that same technique could have been used to takedown any of the labels he sells. So you are ok with his smearing ERC and Supersense. My video is mild mannered and even handed. Yoi come to my channel to make a ridiculous characterization of this exchange. You are clearly mesmerized by Esposito. That’s your problem.
@@AnalogPlanet I did not refer to this subject but other instances in your videos including a disgraceful impersonation of someone who, from memory, had suffered some sort of seizure impeding his speech. Go look at it again! As such your reply only confirms my synopsis...i rest my case
@@Baz63 The humor in that video (or lack thereof) that apparently stays with you was not at the expense of that individual it was situational humor that required some representation of that speech impaired person's response to his wife selling his records for $1 apiece. I stand by the humor and whatever it was, it was not "shoot from the hip". It was well planned.
@@AnalogPlanet Yea I agree with @Barrie Strong on this. That video you made came across as if you were taking advantage of an old man who couldn't express that the fact he didn't want to sell his records for a dollar a piece. It was not at all humorous in my opinion.
Mike, I respect your opinion. However, to call Mike's video a rant is a bit of a stretch. Since I have been watching him, he has never instructed someone not to buy anything. He has offered his opinion, which is at the heart of why people view his videos.
The lacquer video was not cautionary. The tone was angry. His description of lacquer fragility “a few plays” was hyperbolic and simply untrue. The Supersense project is interesting and offers people a chance to own a lacquer. As my video proves they can sound great after repeat plays decades later. Why is he so worked up about this??????
@@AnalogPlanet I watched it... he just didn't seem angry to me at all. He also said they sound great as well. Why are you so worked up about this??????
@@AnalogPlanet “the tone was angry” … “why is he so worked up”: in these respects you are throwing rocks while living in a glass house. Not necessarily commenting on your tone in this video, but there are plenty of examples across your many videos. Not to mention your characterization of Mike’s claims is itself hyperbolic.
You went and replied to a ton of people of Mike’s video to come watch yours. All I got was some anecdotal stories about yours being fine, while glossing over the key issues like plasticizer loss, delamination, spiderwebbing, etc. I’m glad yours are fine, but you purposefully ignore the main point Mike was making, which is that lacquers are not meant to be a multiple playback medium and their lifespan is a stupid risk for a stupid price.
I guess you didn’t listen. Turn your speakers on
@@AnalogPlanet The problem isn’t that your lacquers sound bad. I think they sound good, and Mike said the same in his own video. My problem is that you glossed over the main point, which is that these are not a multiple playback medium and a big gamble to purchase with such an uncertain future. By your own standard for providing supposed “evidence”, I’ve seen my local store owner buy a collection that had three lacquers which were all noisy and begging to chip. That means lacquers are bad and you should never buy them.
@@IntheGrooveSoundtracks You're the one missing Mike F's point. He didn't grab a new unplayed lacquer and show that it sounds great, he grab one that was 17 years old and played many time's to prove that it still sounds great! So his point was The In grove was greatly exaggerating in his video. So stop being a fan boy and listen to this video without bias.
@@guinnster1 Stop being a Framer apologist / fanboy and listen to Mike’s video without bias. You see how that stupid logic works both ways? Mike’s video was about lacquers tending to age poorly almost immediately, but he never said it was impossible for them be fine over the years. Perhaps Framer should pull some of the bad lacquers from his collection instead of the ones that were spared by age just to prove his own point? There’s a reason mastering engineers like Kevin Grey want to plate these things immediately after cutting. Time is their enemy, and to pretend it can’t cause major problems is a foolish mistake on Framer’s part.
@@IntheGrooveSoundtracks Bud, time is the enemy of all things.
You're the only one on the planet who keeps pounding the facetious comment of, turn to dust, as a way to try to humiliate Mike.
Instead of sharing a counterpoint, you chose to be a passive aggressive bully.
COULDN'T HAVE SAID IT BETTER MYSELF. WHAT A CRY BABY. AFTER INGROOVE'S REPLY MIKEY NEEDS TO SHUT IT BECAUSE HE'S BEEN HAD. $100,000 IN FREE LACQUERS ??? LOOKS LIKE MIKEY'S A PAID SPOKESMAN FOR THEM !!!! LOST TRUST.
@@jimbennett2795 Jim, I have about two dozen lacquers some of which I have because I was involved in the MCA "Heavy Vinyl" series in the 1990s. I was paid for my work and I was sent the lacquers as tests. That's what I was hired for. Others because I did work for labels. I do not have $100,000 in free lacquers or even $1000 in free lacquers. Esposito probably has more lacquers than I have. You can shout all you want but it doesn't change any of the facts. I am not a paid spokesperson for anyone. I am paid to be a writer and critic. I was working to save vinyl which was disappearing when Mike was a toddler and later when he was selling discount mattresses. I was on The Today Show and writing about vinyl in The New York Times. But whatever Jim. You've shown your true colors here...
I don't think you're wrong in stating the fact that people can actually collect and play lacquers. If they want to spend $10K on a Strain Gauge system and $500 for a bad Love Supreme cut. On top of whatever prices were paid for the other equipment you've got to not wear down the lacquers that you play.
Mike from the In Groove knows his audience are typically new music buyers who aren't trying to pay luxury premiums for records. He'd probably lose the trust of his viewers if he told them to buy a bad sounding lacquer at $500, or didn't give his honest opinion on their value to the average vinyl collector.
This was a really misguided dig. A video about vinyl brushes would have been so much better and useful to vinyl collectors.
hah, vinyl brushes.. good one. i dont think it was a dig. i dont see that. just a differing opinion. prob just off the cuff reaction as an interesting content opportunity. Im better for it. That Tommy was beautiful.
Mike of the In-Groove is an honest guy. I'm with him on this. Go ahead and tarnish your own reputation by going after him! The surface of acetates is much softer than vinyl (and therefore wear out much quicker with playing). That's why cutting lathes operate on acetate and not vinyl! So you have a relatively new (15 years is not old) acetate that still sounds good, so what?! They wear far quicker than vinyl and to try and argue otherwise is just bloody stupid! About ERC, Mike of the In-Groove was giving an honest opinion based on his own experience of the product. Other people's mileage may vary. To go after him for giving a honest, unbiased critical review of the product when you yourself have received thousands of dollars in free product from the company is not the smartest thing to do, is it? People are not stupid - they can see straight through you!
Mike’s ERC video was dishonest. It uses a customer’s bad repack to attack a quality label. It’s intended to damage a company’s reputation. It’s sad that you don’t see that. Mike could show you split seams and defective pressings from every label he sells but he chose only ERC. ERC’s packing is outstanding. The inner sleeves all come with rice paper. He shows a poor customer repack.He provides wrong information about the Craft reissue cut not from tape as he claims but from digital. You are fine with him attacking another man’s hard honest work at ERC with a dishonest video and you think somehow I tarnish my reputation by pointing it out. I realize you love Mike and he’s a good dealer and educator but you do him no favors being blind to his mistakes and excesses. His ERC video tarnished him. My calling it out doesn’t tarnish mine regardless of what you think.
@@AnalogPlanet I think you are wrong. What evidence do you have of a bad customer repack? I think you are making assumptions that should not be made. I think Mike was giving his honest opinion of ERC from his own experience. You should respect that even if your own experience is different (I'd imagine they would take extra care when mailing records to you for obvious reasons). Mike had no reason to do a hit job on them. You, however, have a vested interest in defending them. You hinted that Mike's motives may be due to ERC declining to sell to his store. ERC releases are limited to 300 copies worldwide - do you really think he would have a realistic expectation to become a dealer of their records and vindictively attack them when they declined? That seems improbable to me. Regarding the Craft cut, I think Mike has already admitted his error in a follow-up video.
@@StylusDrop What evidence do I have? Well as you know I get every ERC record for free. Every one of them includes a rice paper insert in the paper sleeve. Every one of them. The record Mike showed was packed in only paper and of course during shipping that produced micro-abrasions. Every ERC record I've gotten came tightly packed to avoid split seams and you know what? Not one came with a split seam. Mike shook the record in the packing to show how poorly packaged it was. Do you really think a quality company like ERC that spent well over $100,000 rebuilding a Lyrec/Ortofon cutting system and goes to such lengths to produce beautifully reproduced jackets, not to mention superbly mastered records cut using the master tapes would "cheap out" and so haphazardly package a record? Every ERC release costing a great deal of money instantly sells out to collectors around the world. Do you think that's because it sells shoddily packaged records that arrive with split seams? I realize you love Mike but take a step back please. I can show you split seams and defective records from Mobile Fidelity, Analogue Productions and every other premium and regular label. It would be very unfair to show one as Mike did and infer that that's the way they package records or that a defective indicates that the records they sell are defective. I guarantee you Mike has sold some defective records too. I'm sure he replaces them. ERC replaces them too. I've gotten defective replacements too. IT HAPPENS. And yes, Mike did try to become an ERC dealer. I have that evidence, but that's not the point! Nor is your ridiculous assertion that I'm "defending" ERC because it gives me records. I'm defending them here because singling out ERC with what clearly was a repack and putting them in such a negative light when Mike could do the same for all of the other labels he sells is unfair. Were I you, I could say he doesn't do that because he sells those other label's records and doesn't want to hurt his relationship with those labels. But I don't and won't because it would be an unfair insinuation just as you make against me.
Michael, an unrelated issue,
Joseph Petrosso
Michael, all great info thank you. An unrelated question Can you tell me which outlets you are using for your system with the Wilsons?
Attempting to eliminate the hum I have with my phono set up. Could just installing high quality outlets help with this issue or do I need separate runs with proper Romex to resolve this?
thank you
Mike over at 'The In Groove' is very knowledgeable and credible, and is always educating us, the consumer, on what he believes to be the best value for our hard earned money. What he said about Acetates is true. You sir are out of line, and look petty making this video. Your credibility and what little left you have of integrity, is now gone. Smh
What he said about lacquers is not true. If you listened to these lacquers and still believe what you wrote, you are delusional
@@AnalogPlanet In his video, he agreed with you. He said that acetates are phenomenal and are the closest you will get to a reel to reel. The point of the video was to say that they deteriorate very quickly, and you won’t really get 500$ worth out of your record.
@@AnalogPlanet It seems you don‘t get it! Listen to the video again old man
@@alwaysexpandinghorizons6173
You'll be there before you know it, junior.
You're the one missing Mike F's point. He didn't grab a new unplayed lacquer and show that it sounds great, he grab one that was 17 years old and played many time's to prove that it still sounds great! So his point was The In grove was greatly exaggerating in his video. So stop being a fan boy and listen to this video without bias.
OMG!!
I am a Stereophile subscriber and have been very much enjoying your output and contributions over the years, whether in the form of written articles or your videos here on CZcams. Your videos, for example, with young record enthusiast Malachi rank until this day as some of the most enjoyable and endearing videos coming out of the vinyl community.
Having said this, I don’t find it in good taste watching content creators taking stabs at each other and here, sadly, I feel you have taken it several steps further. I happen to also be a subscriber of Mike at The ‘In’ Groove, who is consistently providing detailed updates each and every week of all new vinyl releases, re-issues, pressing qualities, supply issues etc etc and is to many a reliable resource of what is happening in the world of record releases.
I feel in your video you take an enormous amount of “editorial liberty” to discredit him and misconstrue the points he made.
It’s difficult to understand why someone of your stature would feel compelled to go after another (rather reputable) CZcamsr by grossly misrepresenting his actual message.
I don’t think you’re doing yourself or anyone else a favor with videos like this and I am hoping you can hear this and maybe even offer him an apology. He is, after all, very much playing on “your team”, being one of the most visible record store owners out there and passing along a tireless stream of record release updates to the community, and I found it painful to watch him, understandably, trying to set the record straight in his response to your video.
Outside of this faux-pas, let me be clear, I am a fan and hope to see many more informative and/or entertaining videos from you in the future.
Respectfully, Nikolas
His ERC takedown is irresponsible, untrue, unfair and hypocritical. It’s not about me or him. It’s about his video unfairly attacking ERC using a customer repacked record as the foil to do so. What do I have to apologize for? He’s trying to damage a man who’s put his heart, soul and money into an honest, high quality enterprise. It doesn’t mean Mike has to like it and he certainly is entitled to provide an honest perspective on ERC but he didn’t. What he did was produce a thoroughly dishonest put down video. Many people would enjoy having these Supersense lacquers! Yes by all means point out that they are more fragile than records but his characterization of them is simply untrue! For what should I apologize? I’m open to knowing!
What else would you expect from someone making hundreds of thousands of dollars from record label companies? The king has been naked for a very long time but only now someone had the guts to say it.
Well said and I hope Fremer will take your advice.
I agree @double exposure
@Guitar TV That's hilarious and stop screaming. You are very naive and know very little about me if you think I have "no ethics". I get sent lots of free records from many labels including UMG, which sent me the George Harrison "All Things Must Pass" deluxe box set. It's awful and I wrote that. I have given many negative reviews to records I get sent. I did not "terrorize" Mike. Mike criticized ERC for a split seam. I could show you split seams and defective records coming from every major and minor label including Mo-Fi and all of the others. It happens. Singling out ERC was absolutely unfair especially since the record he chose was a poor repack from one of his customers. This video proves his comments about lacquer longevity are simply inaccurate.
I feel like an important question that was just glossed over is: What is a lacquer and how is it different than a normal record?
The short version is: A normal plastic pvc record is a stamped piece of melted plastic made from metal stampers which have the molded grooves in them. These molds were made from lacquer cuttings by a lathe cutting head, but you don't listen to the lacquer original carving, you listen to a stamped copy of it. A lacquer has only one side per disk not two sided.
@@zulumax1 the Supersense ones are two sided but generally speaking you are correct.
Hi Michael do Bluetooth turntables ruin the analog expirence? I have one I'm not as immersed in the music as I used to be.
What a start to my Saturday (UK)! What a turntable, what a tonearm (coolest I've set eyes on...never mind the sound!) and what about the sound recovered by that cartridge. I'm listening on my Oppo mobile phone and that drum sound on Peggy Sue was simply remarkable. I can only imagine how that lacquer actually sounds through your rig, Michael. Brilliant. Also, please do come back to the record brushing video...though I was very, very happy to watch the change in direction. Thanks, Michael👍
Personally the ugliest tonearm I’ve ever seen at any price. The table looks tacky as well.
Just saying 😎
@@1999zrx1100 Fair enough...can't argue...eye of the beholder👍
Is that tommy one available on vinyl somewhere? What was that lacquer used for
I am a customer of Mikes at the In Grove. He is a really great record store owner and has helped me along as I have progressed in the hobby. He was very patient taking all of my calls to help me pick out the turntable that was best for me not trying to oversell. Great customer service and always stands by his product to the bitter end. I have enjoyed and appreciate your videos as well Michael. It would be nice if you two could find a way to bury the hatchet and help To advance the hobby. Peace ✌️
I have no doubt about any of that. My criticism is of two particular videos that contain a great deal of bad information. Everyone makes mistakes. His ERC video was filled with them and was an unfair put down of a very fine reissue label using a customer repack to do the dirty work. His angry take on lacquers was equally irresponsible which is too bad. It will keep some people from hearing something as great as that 16 year old Tommy lacquer that still sounds astonishing. Did you even listen????? Sometimes reading these comments I get the sense that if Mike was a driving instructor who taught you really well how to drive and he was caught drunk driving and had run over a pedestrian you’d defend him because he taught you how to drive well.
@@AnalogPlanet I did listen and they do sound great I get your point that they're not quite as fragile as he said.
@@Zwakkie05 you can’t spend other people’s money and you shouldn’t.
A few thoughts:
1. You’re right, ie, buy it or don’t.
2. The in groove guy is right, lacquers we’re not conceived of as a regular listening medium, and I don’t think a case would be successfully made that, though lacquer discs may endure a long time with proper care, they are as durable a medium as pvc.
3. If the supply of vinyl pressings is backed up due to demand & limited lacquer supply after the Apollo fire, is this prudent? 1 lacquer : 1 record? What a waste of needed lacquers. I would oppose it, not bc it won’t last, but for using a valuable resource to make a novelty vanity product. You want audiophile pressings? They’re out there without squandering needed lacquers for regular record production.
The lacquer shortage is over. The Japanese company has sufficiently stepped up production.
@@AnalogPlanet Had not read that supply was healthy once again. That is good to hear.
If this project doesn’t impinge on lacquer disc supply, I default to position #1 in agreement with you, buy it or don’t. I have good enough gear, I think, to appreciate it (Nott Horizon, Denon DL103R) played thru very nice vintage Yam C4 pre & KLH 5 spkrs, but too pricey a proposition for me, & as you mentioned, some orig master tapes have degraded in condition from they once were.
Just imagine if someone made a video about a record they bought was scratched and warped, and another person responds by posting their own video refuting with "evidence" by playing a flat and quiet record, claiming that records are fine. It makes no sense to refute any claim with an anecdote. Lacquers are by nature of their materials fragile, and that was the point of The In Groove video. Since Fremer agrees, arguing over one's "tone" or talking passed each other seems like a tempest in a tea cup.
There’s no need to start this conflict between two vinyl enthusiasts. It’s sad for us to see, and needless anxiety for the two involved. This disagreement could’ve been handled in a much less petty way I think. That there are some lacquers only 15yrs old that still play okay doesn’t really disprove what Mike was saying. Lacquers deteriorate at a much more rapid rate than vinyl records, that’s just a fact, and one people should understand fully before dropping a huge amount on a record probably not as great as the Acoustic Sounds A Love Supreme (1/6th the price + will last forever).
Most lacquers play as well as the two I played. It is Mike Esposito not I who completely exaggerated lacquer fragility. Yes they are more fragile than records but what he said in that video is NOT TRUE. I know you like him and he’s given you much good information but for goodness sake watch it again. He’s exaggerating, angry and nearly hysterical
@@AnalogPlanet Are you sure he's the one exaggerating, angry and nearly hysterical?
@@ThePinkfloyd51 My video makes quite clear that lacquers are more fragile. Did you actually watch the video? And yes, I'm quite sure that there's zero anger or hysteria in my video. I was very careful about that. Please give me the time count in my video where I display either anger or hysteria. i could easily do that with his video. The anger starts almost immediately as does his over the top assertions about how quickly they deteriorate. He needlessly trashes Supersense and in another video trashes The Electric Recording Company. Apparently that doesn't bother you.
@@AnalogPlanet Lol I'm talking about the way you are acting now.
Look, I understand that this drama gets you more clicks, more attention and caters to your ego, but why are you choosing this hill to die on? I doubt the owner of ERC would stop sending you untold thousands of dollars worth of free records a year had you not chose this path. Mike had a bad experience with ERC, he shared that. What is so wrong with that? He stated a fact, as you did, that lacquers are not a good medium for long term enjoyment. What is so wrong with that? Come on man, I've always respected you and your immense knowledge and passion for records, but this is not a good look for you.
@@ThePinkfloyd51
What else do you lol about, Trey?
Mr Fremer, are lacquers all black and opaque? I am wondering if it could be played by the ELP Laser Turntable? Thanks!
He’s not going to answer you, he’s too busy defending his decision to post this stupid video
I think you took my man Mike out of context! He was trying to say that lacquers aren't nearly as durable as vinyl is , and he was exaggerating a joke when he said (pile of dust)! He tends to exaggerate a bit sometimes! I think his heart was in the right place, just as yours is! I like both you guys, maybe a little dialog between you two! I appreciate you both!
P.S. Buddy Holly never sounded better! Even on CZcams! WOW! I can imagine hearing that in person! The who too, WOW!
Were both lacquers warped? I could see the arm moving a bit and the light was bouncing around on the record clamp.
And I hope to see the dry brush cleaning video soon.
What are the green lights behind the turntable?
How are you liking the DS Audio Ionizer? The price is pretty much the only reason i don't have one yet.
The discs sound fabulous! It's almost as if you're in the room with Buddy Holly. The difference between the normal Toms and the Accented Effected Toms is like night and day. Was that cut at 45 rpm as well? On Pinball Wizard you can hear so much detail in Pete Townshend's Electric Guitar part, although I've heard the Harmonics part in the second verse come through much clearer on CD issues. The Piano on the lacquer however, is clear as a bell and you can hear every note of every chord.
Thanks for taking the time to digitize and share those recordings Michael. Fantastic video.
BTW, what to tonearm lifter is that?
My Little Fwend is the name… seriously
@@AnalogPlanet I have a Little Fwend too, although in XL. Kinda like me. It really is a fantastic thing. Bought mine from the Munich show 2017/18 to use with a J. Sikora.
@@AnalogPlanet got one. Thanks Michael.
I like collecting records -- but just have a simple setup with a Rega Planar 3 / Marantz receiver / Dynaco A-25 speakers. But even though I don't care about the minutia of the hobby -- or high end stuff -- I still can't stop watching your videos. You're a fascinating speaker.
I owned A-25s and they are still great...
The Dynaco A-25's were my first set of "great" speakers! I bought them at Lafayette Radio in Lawrenceville, NJ.
You've come back in my life after I bought today, yes a "Used" 1995 MCA Pressing ( Thick Vinyl) of Buddy Holly. You wrote the liner notes. Im watching and yep thanks for keeping it real!
What turntable is that? Who makes that arm? Thanks
Sorry if this has been answered in the comments below, but what brand and model is that "lifter" .. I'm in need of one!! Thanks!!🙂
I wish you would have showed us about the brushes like you was planning on doing I still like the video hopefully you will do that because I'm interested in dusting my records it's good seeing you again hopefully we'll see more take care and God bless 🙏PS I hope you had a good Thanksgiving🎼🎶🎸
interesting video, food for thought here.
here are some questions I wonder if you can answer.
1) are there different types of lacquer mix? is it possible some are worse than others? I've never seen them turn into 'dust', but I've definitely seen the chipping on the edge. (As I've said in a previous comment, the ones I own, were NOT looked after, so their faults are a result of bad treatment). All mine are from the 50s/60s.
2) I know these as acetates, is there a difference between acetate and lacquer.
3) Can you clean them? I have one that has a problem with mold. I've never known what to do with it.
4) You mentioned a record at the start a lacquer of a live recording, isn't that also the same idea as Direct-to-Disc, but even better?
Thanks this was a video worth watching, you gave your argument, gave some demonstrations. Eye opening for me, subbed.
I'm not in the market for spending that kind of money on lacquers, but there's no doubt after listening to this that they have stunningly excellent clarity, even after 25 years. The switch from mono to stereo at the beginning of "Pinball Wizard" really brings that home. I hear NOTHING in the way of clicks and pops on any of these, except in the first revolution or two of the aforementioned "Pinball Wizard" and a random slight pop later in the record, and even then, it's barely noticeable. It's just proof that if you take care of it, it will last for years, without a doubt. That turntable and tonearm - WOW! Love that. Thanks for this - what a great education on this subject.
WOW WOW WOW....I listened to this with headphones and I do not know what you are using to record and post to youtube, but I was dancing and bopping and moving to the Who like I have never heard them before WOW!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I would pay 400 for that kind of excitement!
His name is Mike. That SHOULD be easy for you to remember Michael. No need to refer to him derogatorily as, "Mr. InGroove". That says more about you than it does about him. I enjoy your videos. Thanks for your expertise. But, be nice.
Hello Mr. Fremer. So I got the Gregory Porter Lacquer last week and I noticed a hum on side A on B, and some cracking noice on the left channel of side A. Is that on your copy too? (no, it's not my system). The other lacquer I bough is Nina Simone, "I put a spell on you", which sounds absolutely great. Thanks a lot for your reply in advance.
I think the biggest problem is the main sales site wasn't actually very upfront about the details of what was being sold. A lot of time was spent proving these sound good when I don't think, having seen the video, that Mike was claiming they sound bad hands down, but that the audio isn't going to last the same as a vinyl disc which is a point you have also made in a previous video. I don't think he's lying about never seeing lacquers from collections in good condition which does say something significant to the level of storage and handling care required to keep them in good shape compared to vinyl.
Awesome. Overture is my favorite. The way it’s mixed you can blast it as loud as your nervous system can tolerate. I wonder how they did that.
Mrike,How does one here in N.Carolina make contact with your products for sale????
The In Groove is actually a very good shop & and the guy who runs it is very knowledgeable, but it's like all audio, everybody has different opinions. Now I make very nice high-end cables, but the snake oil police say they're rubbish even though they haven't heard them, I think you are right though & so am I when it comes to cables, great video👍
I would love to visit his store and if he doesn’t throw me out buy some records. I am not a retailer and he is not a journalist.
@@AnalogPlanet Visit his store, kiss & make up, you both run very nice CZcams channels, obviously not as good as my channel, but you can't have everything😃
Lacquers were the main currency between DJ's until the digital revolution around late 2001/early 2002 or at least here in the UK. The dance music scene was moving so fast most DJ's were playing out something like 80% lacquers in certain genres of dance music. Those dubplates last surprisingly long especially considering how they were handled and played. I still have a couple from around that period that are fine. Not the biggest fan of The Who but that cut sounded incredible!
I really want to see the video about the brushes!
Soon
@@AnalogPlanet I sometimes notice my brush leaves very faint marks on NEW records. Is this due to some factory residue causing the marks? Should I be cleaning my brush regularly and how?
@@markh.9822 I think maybe you should get a new brush. Maybe the records aren’t clean? Are you wet cleaning them with a spin clean or vacuum or anything like that?
Love you both. I hope you both can move forward for the fans. Looking forward to the live chat
That turntable you have is the bee'z knee'z pops . Hope you had a good Thanksgiving 👍
Fantastic sound.... Not sure what turntable it is and it looks very industrial together with the tonearm. :) Thanks for posting this.
Entertaining & informative as always
So, when can we see your opinion on the record brushes? It’s nearly Xmas and I would like to buy a few for gifts this year. Would really like to know more about the guy from the uk who’s brush you said worked really well. Thanks
yes please! I'd love to see the brush shootout as ultimately that's extremely relevant info for most of us.
Thanks pops ,this video is essential. I use a nitty gritty on my vynil every third play , thanks for the video, you bring comfort to me .
You are welcome, my son.
Hi Michael, this is all really interesting. However, previously in your Analog Corner column #60 you say, "Of course, a lacquer is only good for a small number of plays before it wears out. More troubling is lacquer's extreme flammability-great for a disco, where everyone's smokin' and tokin'." Is this referring to the same thing as here? Are the supersense specially formulated lacquers to help with longevity or fire retardant properties? Is that also true of the ones you've used as examples here that are now exceeding your earlier assessment?
I am listening to these on a cheap Bluetooth speaker & can hear how quiet & clear everything is.
Its wonderful.
I used to be into vinyl years ago & have since moved on to digital.
After hearing digital for years now actually know that Vinyl does sound better with Spatial stereo imaging & sweet mind Numbing sizzling stereo effect. I have Never herd that in any Digital Source.
Ever.
MR. INGROOVE'S NAME IS MIKE. HE IS HONEST. YOU ARE NOT BEING FAIR AND YOUR SO MAD YOU WON'T EVEN USE HIS NAME. IT'S A SHAME ON YOU.
Another excellent video. Thank you for sharing
Do you have any Classical music lacquers to demo ? I mean something with a bit more finesse and naturalness sound quality wise .
Thanks for the listen Mikey! Great stuff!
What is the Brand/model of the arm lifter? Thanks.
Little Fwend or something close to that.
The lacquers sounded great. I think that this issue could have been handled better by actually calling Mike from the In groove and having a conversation and later making a video about it. Mike never said anything about a lacquer turning to dust, what he said is the sound quality will deteriorate over time and that he has lacquers older than the ones that you played as covered in his second video. Mike said he isn’t telling anyone what to buy with their own money, he just said it isn’t a good value overall in his eyes as the owner of many lacquers.
Mike also talked about his experiences with the lacquers from that company and he said for what he paid it wasn’t worth it as he quoted one record at 3,000 dollars.(As covered in his second video). I think Mike’s experiences are his own as your experiences Michael are yours. I like the both of you and just wished that this could have been done differently with a conversation among two men before the video, but I can also see your need to respond being an almost ambassador of vinyl when it wasn’t popular.
The video I watched seethed with anger. You must have seen a different one. The one I watched said lacquers deteriorate after a few plays. That’s simply not true. We are not talking about $3000. But you know anti vinyl people say the same things about records. Everything I said was aimed at these videos not about everything else he does! He’s made it more personal about me. It’s not a problem for me. My 30 years worth of honest reporting speaks for itself.
@@AnalogPlanet I know Michael, I just wish that it hadn't went the way it did and even I know that Lacquers last longer than a few plays. If you are referring to the second video and yes, he was angry and it could be seen.
If you look at the comments from both of your (each other's) videos, both of you are highly respected. Michael, I have been following you/reading since I was 18 years old. I'm not questioning your honesty or his.
I guess when you feel someone is attacking you or your character, you will respond, and not always in a nice way, but it's just unfortunate, because both of you have so much to offer from different perspectives. I just hate seeing what goes down in the photography industry with the negativity, but I guess what is done is done. Have you done a review or opening yet on the new David Bowie boxset?
Wow, what a quality take for CZcams. Try to imagine the real Quality in the "Analog Planet" Room...... MUST BE AWESOME!!!!
Peggy Sue I love you. I remember the song from when I was a young man.
John Entwistle was a very good customer of mine. I went to the Who's office in Soho and met the entire band.
They gave me a copy of the Album Tommy which I still have today. I was to shy to ask them to sign it though.
I’m a little surprised that Michael didn’t mention playing lacquers on a Strain Gauge phono cart. The moving mass of that design (which I own and really enjoy) is so low that even lacquers do not wear. Check Tam Henderson’s (owner of reference recordings) quote on SoundSmith’s site that he has played lacquers hundreds of times with no degradation! Because of this, Strain gauge styli can be played for up to 6000 hours before they need to be replaced. I know that SoundSmith’s regular moving iron cartridge designs are supposed to have less moving mass that traditional ones, hence less mechanical jitter, and perhaps that would mean less wear on lacquers also? Maybe Michael can interview Peter Lederman on the topic.
What kind of needle cart combo do you need to play a lacquer?
Question Mikey - Why do Kevin Gray and Joe Harley insist on plating lacquers within a few hours of being cut if there is nothing that happens as they age?
Michael Hobson as well. I suspect like with many things some audiophiles futz over its really redundant practice. Like the flat profile, clarity vinyl and 200 gram its just gimmicks.
Or if they are correct then I dont see how Mike at InGroove was wrong exactly.
All lacquers used for actual record production should be plated as soon as possible to limit “lacquer spring back”. It’s not an “audiophile obsession”. As with tape generation loss, 3 step plating produces loss (which is y MoFi makes a big deal of 1 step LPs). With unplated lacquers the springback clearly produces minimal loss when used for direct play
@@AnalogPlanet What does "spring back" mean and entail exactly?
Does it make the lacquer resist coating somehow? And why does this just affect playback minimally?
Also, I dont know if I would call plating loss of information. It adds noise with more steps, but the information is the groove curvatures and those dont move because of plating, unless maybe 100 generations are made.
@@leon9021 I would assume the material expands
@@SPINNINGMYWHEELS777 Then I dont see how it just has a minimal effect on play, doesnt add up for me.
I love how the record begins to spin backward at around the 12:35 mark. I think that must account for the fantastic sound, especially on the Tommy Lacquer. :-)
And I love the OMA table and 3D-printed arm!
Thanks Again Michael .. Happy Thanksgiving Weekend !! Jimmy ...
Michael I may have to pull the trigger on these lacquers being pressed. They sound great based on your demonstration. I wish you would do more shootout videos to compare pressings.
Anyhoo . . . are you going to do the video on dry brushes?? :)
Thanks Michael, great and interesting video
Mike at in groove is saying that you take freebies from ERC that are worth up to $50,000. Is that true? As a journalist, would that be a conflict?
Question: what about repeated plays? Meaning can you play it as many times as vinyl without perceptible degradation?
Michael has played those lacquer records many times and as he showed in the video, they still sound amazing. :)
Not "as many times as vinyl" and I do try to limit playback to "when necessary" or when I can share with people ...
@@AnalogPlanet Thanks for your reply. Much appreciated.
@@TorontoJon "Many" times could be 5 or 500. We need some form of figure here.
@@leon9021 HE'S CAUGHT RED HANDED BY INGROOVE AND WILL ONLY BE VAGUE AT THIS POINT. TRYING TO SAVE ANY CREDIBILITY HE MIGHT HAVE LEFT AFTER BEING CAUGHT RED HANDED ACCEPTING $100,000 IN FREE LACQUERS FROM THEM. WHAT A JOKE. LOST ALL CREDIBILITY AT THIS POINT.
I bought records from the late 2000s that sound worse than that. I'd be more worried about how fragile it is.
I have some decades old lacquers from major record labels and they play and sound perfect. As long as you take care of them and play them with 1g tracking, they can last indefinitely.
That's precisely the point I was trying to make.
hi there . can you give me some info on lacquered records . and what is the difference dubplate and lacquers ? im waiting to get my one of cuts from the pressing plant and a bit nervous about testing it in case it wears out as its cost quite a bit of money how many plays could i get . ? would appreciate your help .
Beautiful demonstration !!! 🤗
Damn..sounds like Buddy Holly is standing next to me singing!!
Wow! Where to start? Michael, not sure why you felt compelled to respond to another vinyl supporting CZcams personality in such a way, but so be it.
Point One: Easy point first. Why bother with a digital rip of a lacquer needle drop to prove a point? Doesn't the process of playing this needle drop through CZcams negate the whole point? I played these lacquer rips through CZcams, my mac, output via USB, to my $6000 DAC, all which rendered the sound as: "Meh" If the actual sound I'm hearing now, is what I actually hear on my turntable system, it would never be played; better sounding discs would always jump the queue. Is this lacquer better, worse, the same as a well-pressed vinyl? Who can tell from this demonstration.
Point Two: Do lacquers deteriorate, and if so, how quickly? I think this is the major point of contention. I believe you both agree it does deteriorate with time and with playing. The real questions are: 1) How many plays will the lacquer remain superior sounding to a comparable vinyl pressing? 2) how much deterioration will take place through time alone? Does climate affect this, etc.? We can assume there is significant difference if cutting/plating engineers place such a priority on timely plating.
So any hard answers to 1) and 2) would help folks understand the issue. For example, give a range of plays to answer question 1). It would probably alleviate most of the animosity in this discussion.
Point Three: Regarding ERC. Gotta say, if any business is charging 10x or more for a similar and decent product, it better sound as good or better, have fantastic presentation, and certainly be free of defects. QC for 300 records is a one day job. Be like Nike, just do it! (I would have said "Be like Mike" but the pun is unintended! lol) Since you've gone that far, you should definitely make sure it is packaged and shipped to arrive without damage! I've been in manufacturing, wholesale and retail; sorry, no excuses on this one! I'm completely with In Groove Mike on this one.
Point Four: Give the information, let the people decide. Give your "facts" and let everyone make an informed decision. I think that is what you are both trying to do, but please cut out the personal attacks! Yeesh! As they say, can't we all just get along?!!
I watch most of both Michael and Mike's videos, so I don't care to take a side. However, Michael, if the only videos you've seen of In Groove Mike are his "rants" then you are missing the point. He is a businessman/salesman playing the long game. He would rather sell you a less expensive, but better item today than an inferior but more profit one. Why? Because he'd rather earn your trust and make you a long term customer for the long term. He does this by telling it like it is.
And the Winner IS.... Sorry Michael, but in this unnecessary youtube battle, you don't come off well. Mike's point about how much free stuff you receive from ERC, and your friendship with the lacquer company does raise the eyebrows on why you felt it necessary to be this aggressive for this video and in comments. Thou doth protest too much, IMHO me thinks.
I do remember what you went through to save vinyl, and want to thank you for that.
This concept of selling lacquers to general public at a premium because they were cut from a cleaner source is very disturbing. Lacquer is by its nature more fragile and will not age as well as a vinyl. The other channel is right on his rant. I don’t care how clean your particular 20 years old lacquers are. That doesn’t prove anything.
There's nothing disturbing about selling lacquers. You know there are people who think advocating and selling vinyl records is "disturbing" for the same reason. Those whiners say "records begin wearing out and losing sound quality after the first play". It's not true. What Mike said about lacquers is simply not true. He's not right about what he said in his rant! PERIOD. Yes, lacquers are more fragile than records and records are more fragile than CDs. So? I have many, many lacquers and they all still sound very very good. What Mike said in his video is basically hysterical and simply not true. Had he said "look, you have to take care of lacquers and not play them all the time and they can sound great for decades even if you play them many times but be careful", none of this would have happened.
Childish video. Reminds me of Donald Trumps way of acting and talking. “Pile of dust” is of course not to be taken literally. Are you 5 years old?
YES HE IS. AND HE HAS NOW BEEN CAUGHT TAKING UP TO $100,000 IN FREE LACQUERS FROM THE COMPANY HE IS DOING REVIEWS FOR. HE IS MAD, HAS BEEN CAUGHT RED HANDED AND DOESN'T KNOW WHAT TO DO. SO HE'S ACTING LIKE A CHILD. UNBELIEVABLE.. I'M DONE WITH THIS GUY . THANKS MIKE AT THE INGROOVE FOR PULLING THE CURTAIN BACK ON THIS FRAUD.
Wow they sound great even over You Tube., Thanks for the demo :)
I think you two guys are both right in your own ways. I think both the statement "lacquers are more fragile and less hard-wearing than vinyl" and the statement "lacquers still sound great after 25 years" can be right at the same time.
Fantastic!!!!!!!! but I still want the brush video.
One of you has received over $50,000 worth of free records from ERC and one of you have not...hmmn
THAT'S WHAT I'M SAYIN. I SEE A LIAR AND A CRY BABY IN ONE MAD MAN HERE
I still believe the iconic Discwasher brush is the best, along with a good carbon fibre brush, which both should be used in conjunction with each other, The Discwasher brush has DIRECTIONAL bristles.....
😂
That "Look Now" album cover over Michael's shoulder strongly resembles The Residents' "Duck Stab/Buster and Glen."
My God! Even on my iPad I can hear the extraordinary fidelity.
Congrats! You can play 1 lacquer. That ain't proof. Nobody said this one well kept record turns to dust
I have more than a dozen lacquers often played that sound as good as these two.
What is that turntable??
Thank you Mikey , even through a budget dac into a cheap integrated driving home made ls3/5a's those lacquers sound absolutely epic .😘
Great review. Lacquers, records, brushes, salutation😁😂. Previous time was albino brush😂😁 You're a legend.
god that just made want that turntable and the record ,magic
Sorry Michael but I think you misunderstood what he was actually saying. I'm quite confident that you realize this by now. Now you two shake hands and lets back to being one happy community!
Michael, Stop trying to bully The In Groove guy. The fact is you are totally biased on the ERC issue because of the fact that they give you ten's of thousands of dollars worth of records! You are showing all of us that all you are doing is trying to protect ERC so that you can continue to get free stuff from them. You should just keep your mouth shut on both the ERC issue and the Lacquers issue. Oh, and maybe apologize the Mike from The In Groove. Look at all of your negative feedback from this video. Maybe your head just got too big.
I have a 78 RPM of Peggy Sue sounds great on a Fairchild mono cartridge from the 50s
Collecting vinyl can be fun
This issue needed to be addressed and you certainly put it into perspective. Even listening to it on my phone it sounded amazing. Thanks Mike
Probably the biggest selling point of a lacquer, besides the quality of the sound due to the source material, is that since it has not been pressed like a record, there is NO deviation from the center, which is very prevalent among albums pressed in the USA, particularly at Rainbow. I had to return 3 copies of the 2009 stereo Beatles White album because both records were pressed off center. This can never happen with a lacquer.
There is no doubt about the quality of the lacquer disks. I am also impressed by the transparency and very low colouration from the tone arm.
Thanks for your expert professional opinions.
Would Love to own it.Tommy a rock Opera,was and always will be a collector's piece.
Okay now I have to buy a really good copy of Tommy. I forgot just how good that record is.
If you are going with a basic release , try and find the DECCA pressings . The MCA pressings are terrible compared to Decca . The Decca pressings sound like Pete is in the room playing . Such a great pressing
I am used to hearing Tommy on my system and other peoples "High End 'stuff but this lacquer is at another level for detail and dynamics sorry cant afford
Thanks Michael, always entertaining.
I coud swear that turntable is spinning in the opposite direction when Tommy was playing compared to when Peggy Sue was playing. Tommy sounded amazing.
Lacquers sounded really great, as did that Ortofon cartridge!
Could not catch the name of the tonearm lifter, it also looks really good on the table.
It’s called Little Fwend. Seriously. lol
@@NickP333 Thanks! I kept playing that section over and over just could not get the right spelling.