Peak Torque on Bike Marketing, Real World Aero Savings and Hookless Dangers
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- čas přidán 13. 06. 2024
- Is they bike industry a big SCAM? Hookless Rims are the most dangerous technology we face and what (if any) bikes are good value in 2023.
Nero Show Featuring @PeakTorque
Huge thanks to Alex from Peak Torque for spending some time with us answering all the questions we have been discussing on the show over the last few months. Alex has an experienced and unique view of the bike industry, something we leant on in this discussion.
Check out Alex's Channel: / @peaktorque
Chapters
00:00 intro
00:30 Industry marketing claims
14:21 Have We Reached Peak Aero?
18:23 What's Going On In China?
23:07 Industry Quality Control
31:07 Hookless Disaster
44:03 Are New Bikes a Rip OFF?
52:00 Carbon Spokes
1:00:00 What Tyre Width Is Fastest?
1:14:06 A CZcams Engineer
1:23:14 Hambini vs Peak Torque
1:26:41 Pro Cycling Watt Bombs
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INSTAGRAM: @chrismiller27 @nerocontinental
TWITTER: @chrismiller @nerocontinental
STRAVA: / strava
Check Out Jesse's Coaching: www.nero.club/coaching - Sport
Credit to these guys! Turned this around very fast. Can confirm that Chris can get it up very quickly 🎉 even as a cyclist
Few comments to add: The easy answer to the 305W NP questions is - it doesn't get easier you and everyone else just get faster. The avg. speed of the bunch I bet has gone up I bet over the years.
Secondly, Mr Bigham has been on the phone to say every GC leader should ride an aero bike. While the CFD says deep in the bunch there is up to a 95% drag reduction, the ride files don't show that, which he has access to :)
Some more comments about tubeless - the tubeless center channel depth is really important when it comes to safety, yes you can make it deeper for easy installation (and the bead seat diameter can be the same at the wall) but if the bead slips down into the deeper channel under total pressure loss it is equally easy for the tyre to come off!
😈
🍆
I've been hoping for this one for a while. Great to see you on; and I loved that you grabbed the calculator as soon as Jesse started asking watts numbers :D
I’m here to confirm Chris can’t get it up. Jesse tho? Rock hard.
Gay.
How is this podcast just getting better and better?! This is probably my favorite episode so far. Please have PT back on again. Great job boys!
He said it! “You can’t cheat the physics” should be PTs tag line 😅. Great episode
Wow, this was my absolutely favorite episode! Great job to all 3 of you. As an engineer, I am in absolute awe of how well Alex can explain such complex topics and make it seem so interesting. He is a fantastic teacher. Keep up the good work with the podcast guys! you're absolutely right, the goal is to generate the conversation, and not cover 100% of the details.
Our pleasure!
If he grew a mullet out he’d be an absolute god!
PeakTorque has my full respect. Sending it with humility, honesty and facts. Very very rare in this world of CZcams.
I started this thinking "no way am I gonna get through an hour and a half".... got to the end like "wait yall are done already?" Great stuff, pod keeps getting better and better.
The episode we’ve all been waiting for! You guys are absolutely killing it, best pod on cycling YT.
Finally
Truth!
This was the best episode yet-hands down.
and one with joe china cycling
Probably one of the best episodes you've done. Thanks for all these amazing insights!
Wow, thanks!
Loved the longer format and being able to hear Alex's viewpoints on multiple topics. Alex's depth of knowledge came across even better than it does in his own channel.
Great to hear!
Interesting discussion. As an F1 analyst, Ive bern struggling to understand this ‘aero’ issue, all of sudden bike manufacturers, and especially many cycling enthusiasts I met on the road becoming aero experts. In F1, even big names like Scuderia Ferrari, Mercedes, McLaren DO make mistakes in understanding aero. Those teams have enormous budget & state-of-the-art wind tunnels & R&D by reputable engineering teams. Not to mention carbon layup, where to make it stiff & where to ‘cheat’ (heard of flexi wing?). This is a very good video with substantial discussion 👍
The real reason enthusiasts want aero bikes is because aero bikes are neat looking.
Correct, fact of the matter is, wearing a pair of $25 aero socks reduces drag by more than the SL8 Roval stem and bar combo, but people want the bike anyway because its prestigious.
🔥These CZcamsr collaborations are always the best episodes.
Excellent. You guys keep raising the bar on vid podcasts that are worth watching.
Glad you enjoy it!
@@ChrisMillerCycling Very impressed with the 'common man' application from PT. He is only the second guy I have heard mention the 'stacked springs' idea on a bike and that things are too stiff most of the time. I have a saying that I think applies to most situations and most people riding a bike: "Smoother is faster". I do a lot of gravel riding, often on review bikes, carbon wheels, etc, and that really is a case where compliance is nearly always faster overall. And I am just now planning a new road bike build and contemplating 32s and a shallow carbon wheel for road. For where I live and how I ride, I think it is a smart choice, but I keep getting distracted by the 'shiny rocks' that modern bike marketing tosses out. We shall see. Thanks for the food for thought.
Great work pulling in Peak Torque. Such good information.
Glad it was helpful!
Great episode gentlemen; easily in the top 5 of all-time for the Nero Show. Recommend at least quarterly collaborations with PT. I’m personally a big fan of PT as well. I think your approaches to subjects relating with our sport are complimentary. Presents a very researched approach & useful contrast to questionable industry directions. Again, very solid episode! Cheers!
Great suggestion!
Thank God someone has finally pointed out that aero savings in the bunch is basically zero. Imagine all those pros choosing the aero bike and sitting in the bunch all day. Thanks TP
Great episode boys! Well done. Learned a lot about my own BS a few times in this. I gotta stop being a cycling diva lol
This was one of you best! Such an interesting conversation. Thanks guys.
Great content! Best video yet. Excellent questions and discussion. It’d be great to see Peak in the regular rotation of guests.
I think a good example of a large rider who focused on system aero was Adam Hansen. He would ride the Helium over the Noah with negative stem, wild drop to the 38cm bars all to get low and narrow. Did have the 35mm bars for stiffness/weight (sponsor), imagine that would be integrated now if it could be had with the negative stem.
This show seriously needs a disclaimer of “we’re just guessing but try to keep it entertaining”.
Great guests coming on guys. Nice work, keep it coming!
So good to have PeakTorque on the show. Great job! This was the bomb!
@PeakTorque I believe you misunderstood the analysis WRT the venge vias. It was 2 mins faster compared to what it replaced (Specialized Tarmac SL5 I believe). Then the venge was a smidge faster and the SL8 is claimed to be a smidge faster still. That's all with respect to the SL5 Tarmac, not the venge vias.
Awesome episode! Keep up the great work, it's always the one video of the week I'm looking forward to
Glad you enjoy it!
Edit: great video! loved it, what a star line-up of guests you've got on here
Additional comment: The Hefron Park analysis has a faulty premise. CMiller is able to do 305 W normalized for the race, and with a faster bike he's just going to be going faster for that same power. His placings might not have improved much (if at all), because his competition will have also been slowly upgrading to more aero bikes (presumably).
What I'd like to see whether the average speed of these races has tended to increase over the years, because with constant normalized power that would be indicative of aerodynamics having improved overall.
I enjoyed this discussion… probably one of the best you’ve done… I hope you have Alex on again…. 🍻
I hope so too!
One of the best editions so far fellas. Thanks!
Awesome job guys🔥 it was a joy to watch! Keep on the good work👍🏼
you guys continually get the best guests CZcams has to offer. Officially THE BEST cycling podcast EVER. Kudos.
Simply and incredibly - this was awesome, guys. Could listen to you all for 8 hours...easily. So much learned, explained, discussed. Please make a follow-up or next episode with Alex in the future, if you can. Will be waiting for it.
Best and most compelling one yet. Thanks for putting this together.
Loved this one! Thanks guys!
BEST SHOW so far Thanks PT,JC and CM
Solid episode, awesome. thanks guys!
I'd love for you to dive into your hefron park data set and see if the speed has changed over the years. If everyone else has swapped from round tube bikes to aero rigs over the last 10 years then maybe everyone is still pushing the same power as always, but the pack is going a little bit faster? Rather than expecting Chris's watts to drop as if he's in isolation and the only one on a faster bike. Potentially the same reason why pro races have gotten a bit quicker over the last 5ish years.
I had the same thought listening to this. And to measure if a bike is “faster” the power input would have to be a controlled constant.
Love the show but wish Jessi would fix his camera. The image is always reversed in the split screen shots ( but correct inthe solo shots).
Lol y’all are 100% talking about me with the whole “But tbis is made specifically for this frame!” *Looks over at my Reserve Wheel and Soloist*
Thank you for this episode. I really enjoy the coversationnal yet educationnal style.
Bloody heck I don’t remember a more engrossing informative discussion as this one in a
long time. Spot on..🎉.
Is it just me confused at the start of the vid? Is it not the venge spaceship with the dodgy brakes was 2 mins faster than the previous bike that was never named? So the SL8 is only 12 seconds faster than that original venge?
It was the Venge Vias. It was never compared to the original Venge upon release, McLaren and Specialized carefully chose to pit it against the Tarmac.
In other words, the SL8 is allegedly 33w faster than the Tarman SL4
Jess Coyle may excel as a bike rider but not in the empirical sciences. As you point out, what is the original datum, a house brick!
Forgot to commend last week but just wanted to say the bikeotic channel is awesome and I’m glad he got a shoutout!
Great episode!
This has become probably my fav cycling podcast in the last few weeks
Glad you enjoy it!
On of the best shows i have seen in this channel! Peak Torque is elevating yours in Galaxies
Thanks for this content, really great stuff !
Could listen to Alex talk bikes & relevant engineering practices all day. Stellar guest
Alex is just someone I could listen to for days. Clever guy.
Wow, one of your best shows ever. Very informative and you guys asked some great questions.
Listened to the podcast but came here to comment: this is one of the best if not the very best episode of any cycling related podcasts I have ever heard... Up there with the early Silca (Josh) marginal gains episodes. So much free game from a guy with a lot of knowledge. ❤ I love you Nero Show keep up the good work!!!
Hookless: thank you for confirming my suspicions. Still the best cycling talk podcast. 👏
Great show, fantastic debate on the bike industry and the mechanics of the bike.
Awesome video fellas. Loved the topics...
Glad you enjoyed it!
Very good show. Love it.
Excellent stuff and amazing info. I could listen to you three guys all day just geek out about bikes.
Glad you enjoy it!
This pod cast slaps love the Nero show
I am generally one of those commenters that piss on every video I watch about bikes and tech, but I never have had the urge to be negative from watching Peak Torque, Hambini, or this channel. You guys are top rated IMO and this video was very captive and interesting for me. A lot of what was talked about in this video are things I have been saying for years and have been put down for for saying. It doesn't bother me because I have been cycling longer than most cyclists are of age. One thing I did listen to was the Italian idea of cycling comment and I totally found funny because I don't feel the Italians are all things good or do it the best anymore and people who think they do are fools. Italian bikes ones especially Colnago aren't any better than a cheap Chinese brand anymore. Great video, loved watching it.
Thanks for that Charles. We were lucky to have PT spend as much time with is. Thanks for the positive comment 🙏🏼
Was waiting a long time for this one! Super interesting conversation. Hope PT can hop in again soon!
Congrats - the channel has come of age, get Hambini on next 😬😬😬
Well done gents, fantastic chat. Appreciate the editing effort, Chris - I imagine it’s not easy to achieve with the timing lag when chatting between continents, but you were able to edit that brilliantly.
Also, Alex does know his audience.. winspace hyper wheels rider here 😂
Hey BT, thanks for the kind words on the edit, I can confirm the lagging was ‘challenging’ 😉
Another really interesting video - thank you. I leant a lot listening to that.
Supurb job Chris with the show in general, but also the top-tier lineup of guests you've managed to get on recently. Shows the respect the youtube cycling crowd is showing the Nero show.
We have been very lucky have these guys reaching out and keen to be apart of the show. Alex is a pure gent
Great great great podcast, we need Alex back again. Thanks Chris and Jesse!!!!!
Brilliant guys, and great to hear Alex views 👏 👍
I hope you guys paid attention, "smaller, slimmer the front tire the faster you go" the rest is pure marketing :P I am still using my 23mm oldddddd continental GP4000 until they rot, after that i will test the GP5000 TR like Alex told us to do :)
started watching but didnt think i'd stick for 90mins...and here I am at the end...great conversation, thanks to all....PS my University lectures are rambling observations too...but with solid knowledge and experience 😉
We all love Alex! 👍🤙
Hats off gents…amazing content
Great again. You guys are nailing it.
Thanks again!
I’m glad you are bring smart people to chat with.
Favorite episode ever! Well done guys and Alex is such a great guy I could listen to him for 3h
Wow ..that was the best I've ever watched on any CZcams video..well done
Brilliant work guys. Fantastic content.
Glad you think so!
Great episode there guys, so may interesting topics - bit like a myth busters show, with a true subject matter expert! You have set the bar extremely high for yourselves now.....
this is such good stuff keep it up guys
Great show. Specs thanks to @PeakTorque
I found this channel couple of years ago through Jesse's training videos and enjoyed the content as Nero Racing Team trying to crack Europe - but the re-branding to a chatshow/topical podcast style channel has me staying on waiting for every video. Great show guys!
Awesome, thank you!
One of the best and most informative videos I have watched in a long time.
Glad it was helpful!
Awesome in depth discussion
Excellent guest!
I quite like PT in this format. Definitely one of the best episodes so far.
Would love to hear Bikotic on the show and listen to Chris and Jesse pick his brain on frame geometry and western brands that are sharing moulds.
I gave up on marketing hype years ago but hey- there’s one born every minute so it’s not gonna go away anytime soon.
So much information, thanks!
Glad it was helpful!
Fascinating chat! In particular, the quality control, hookless and tire width portions. And hearing Ganna's power data doesn't mean anything to me but Chris' reaction tells me what I need to know.
Glad you enjoyed it!
Very interesting, especially since you got in really deep in some subjects. What i like the most about you is that you don't repeat the mainstream marketing crap many goes on and contributing to creating a mutual agreed truth about stuff without questioning.
Very interesting podcast. Great work
Glad you got PT on! Have him on again soon and longer!
Im working through his back catalog and heard him make a reference along the lines of:
This the type of thing that gets Jesse from the Nero Show all fired up.
And I thought, ahh! He is aware of the boys at Nero.
Top quality content. Superb
Great episode 👍
I really enjoyed learning aero topics that Alex mentioned.
Absolutely brilliant boys.👊🙏
Awesome video and discussions, one of my favorite ones in past months 👍opposing to Jesse's recommendation I actually did a 740km / 25h non-stop ride on my Hyper 65mm wheels and survived 🙂
Yeah no problem with mine either but I ride on smooth Swiss Tarmac so 🤷🏻♂️
Yet another great guest guys.
Superb. The cycling industry is a total mess. Endless unproven BS claims. The whole community benefits from people like Alex. This is the direction you guys should target. Real talk. No marketing/sponsor shilling. Actual science backed information. Same as what Jesse does with his training content.
The best ever episode! Keep bring this other islander to the show! Three islanders on a talk show as hosts and another one watching them (Hawaii)!
I'm also curious about how exactly the claimed aero gains are arrived at by specialized. I assume they always use best-case scenario testing procedures to make the numbers as large as possible and ignore real world practicalities. For example, SL8 vs SL7 they claim 4w from the integrated bar/stem alone (incidentally almost exactly their overall 40km ITT number). But probably 99% of riders who will ride that bar will put computer in front of the bar, which then moves the leading edge of the bike forward of the stem/bolt interface on the SL7. I would imagine if you tested both bars with a garmin mounted, you'd find less of an advantage for the fully integrated setup than if you tested without.
Me: 2 CZcams influencers find peak torque more attractive than me.
Hairdresser: They must be men!!!
The collab we needed
How is it that I watched for an entire 90 minutes? Very nice work guys. Very interesting and thoughtful! Thanks. I guess I will be following @peaktorque now. 😂
great show guys
This podcast scratched so many itches, great job guys. And yeah Hambini does love a bit of trolling but i have a couple of chats with him away from the youtube scene and he does come across as a sound guy to me, i dont drink but would happily have a pint or two with him. I kinda wish Mike Burrows was still around, he used to visit Bikefix a lot when i was there and had some great chats with him he was such a nice guy and i would love to put PT, Hambini, Dan Bigham, Allen Millyard and Mike Burrows in a room together and just listen to them put the world of cycling to rights and see what they could come up with. That would be my bike engineering dreamteam.
This is so much better than that over rated under rated knockoff