Surviving a BVR fight in the F/A-18C Hornet Against Better BVR Fighters | DCS.
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- čas přidán 15. 10. 2020
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If you enjoy war thunder or are looking forward to Microsoft flight simulator 2020, consider getting yourself into Digital Combat Simulator by Eagle Dynamics, the Combat side of Aviation with the BVR and Dogfights really provides a different and interesting perspective on aviation. You can fly all kinds of combat aircraft including the F-16, F-15, F-14, JF-17, Su-27, Mig-29, Mirage and the F-18 Hornet along with many other aircraft and helicopters like the Ka-50 and Mi-8. - Hry
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I hope this video helps all of you Hornet bros that are having trouble against the F-15 and the F-16 in BVR fights, With the Hornet you kind of just have to accept that you will be at a disadvantage in the initial launch of the BVR fight but its so important to be at a high altitude, because your first AMRAAM will be a little more dangerous to him, he's more likely to defend by reducing altitude, and also it gives you options when defending the incoming missile, having room to DIVE is so important and always remember to respect the MAR, or Minimum Abort Range. Hope you guys enjoyed the video and thank you for watching. Much Love.
What is an F-15s MAR?
MAR = Minimum Abort Range
Has nothing to do with just the F15.
Hey Growling, can you make the same thing for the Viper as I'm also in need of help with BVR fighting the Viper. Thanks. If you won't make a video can you please give a few tips then?
How is the first Fox-3 so dangerous given you immediately turn cold? Doesn't the F-15 pilot know there's a good chance the missile is essentially useless as the radar track was dropped before pitbull?
It seems the Hornet's radar behaves strangely since july or august. Earlier, I was able to STT lock an enemy fighter from about 60 miles, maybe more. Now it's hard to acheive a lock form 40 miles, only corners of target box appear and I loose lock. My plane is F/A-18C, enemy plane is Su-27 or F-15C, altitude of both planes 25000 ft, aspect angle 180 degrees (hot). Am I doing something wrong? Sometimes I can't lock even having enemy AMRAAM or R-27ER fired at me. I see the target on radar screen, but can't acheive a lock. And LTWS is disabled.
"To find us you must be good" "To catch us you must be fast" "But to beat us ... You must be kidding"
Beautiful
i like that lol
@@GrowlingSidewinder Thankyou for the appreciation.
Sharp! That’s all…
As a Mig29 player, I already have my strategy for BVR fighthing on the servers : I've left have copies of my will at the base.
X D
As a MiG29, I don't recommend you go BVR, try to be stealthy and shoot at around 10 miles or less with your R77 or R27ET.
@@ryz_vik "as a Mig29"
Woah, I got an actual Mig29 to answer, how badass is that :D !
Thanks for the advice, this is the strategy I try often, tho I moved to other planes (Mirage for dogfights, and Viggens for ground attack).
I hve de su27 and the fact of no having fox3 is a little bit sad but is a funny plane to play full defensive
Bro you like that 10000 year old junk that spits out black smoke so the enemy cant tell if they hit it and you had engine faliure or not and cant rate fight an A10 and it looks like a knockoff but older flanker like your ancestors that flew it
Me:*doesn't play dcs
Also me: hmmmmm interesting
Me: doesn’t play DCS
also me: Ah yes I need to dive I get it now
@@theimpostor4317 same🤣🤣🤣🤣 i used to play it but my 4gb ram laptop couldn't handle it and after struggling to download it (there's like a few things u needa do before downloading it or else it'll constantly crash) i was hella mad and removed it🤣🤣🤷♂️
@@jaomircourtar1501 I just never really owned a pc or a laptop, looking to build one right now tho but it’s just so damn expensive to get a decent one to run DCS in vr
@@theimpostor4317 DCS VR is goals tho
@Reader Stuff 😂😂😂 chances are lpw but never 0 i like that
As a hornet driver, this is SUPER helpful GS
Irl
Hi Growling, I've been following you for a long time on another account and now I've created another one, your videos have served me a lot, especially those that have Tacview, now I just bought the Hornet and your videos have taught me many things. Thank you for that and may your channel continue to grow
Thank you Nico I appreciate your support. I’m glad you’ve found the videos useful. Much love brother.
I so much need this especially cause I fly the Hornet in your server and get so aggregated that I do more Hot starts then killing. I just got Tacview so I’m back to the studying curve.
Thx as always bro.
Best of luck brother
*Watches video about Cold War fighter jet maneuvers*
*Hears the word "MAR"*
*Learns it means "Minimum Abort Range"*
*Realizes there's a MAR for lasers and missiles in Star Wars Squadrons*
"Dang I gotta use all this in Squadrons"
10/10 You helped me be a better pilot in DCS and Squadrons
One of your best Tacviews. Very, very educational. Thank you!
Honestly this looks like the anti-Tomcat tactics of the Mirage are going to become more valuable than ever. Notch the guy relentlessly, close distance and get under his radar search, then hook him from below. Hunt like a leopard - camouflage yourself when they're looking at you, and close range when they're not. If they want to play the speed and energy game, the whole mission of a Flanker or a Mirage or something is to deny that advantage, or better yet turn it into a disadvantage. When the bandit is coming at you at a high mach number, closing range and sticking a knife between his ribs is all the easier. That is, so long as you are hood at hiding in the bushes!
That was one hell of a breakdown GS, great content!
Had a bad day in school. I'm coming home and see that GS uploaded a new vid again. That put a instant simile into my face :)
Brilliant! I love the tacview debrief. It really helps to cement the abstract. Thanks GS 👍🏼
Hi GS, Thanks for another great tactics video. I fly the F18 a lot so this was very good for me. I always learn from your fight videos. Thanks again!
Just want to thank you for your videos I find them very entertaining and informative new to DCS would really enjoy learning from you and flying with you
Thank you ☺️❤️
Love your videos ❤️
@Growling Sidewinder: Great video as always. Would be very interesting though to hear more often also your opponents talking about their view of the fight. Closer to a real exercise debrief. Once you did something in that direction with ATE and I loved it!
Hey GS, nice video. I'm a veteran of flight sims, but mostly ground pounding. Recently I started to watch your videos to learn and try my luck at aerial combat. I must say they've been very helpful. And just want to say that what you said about AA engagements with the Hornet is real: you'll have to accept that the enemy will commit and fire first as a fact of life. I like to go against Su-27 armed with Fox-1s (both of us), but I was starting to noticed that they always can fire first, and your thrust to ratio explanation makes all sense. Also, against enemies Fox 3s, it was surprisingly to see that you turn and go cold. I understand that you do that to waste their energy little more but I believe you can affect their radar Doppler shift doing that, so the missiles will have a less than perfect firing solution. And yes, getting in a phone booth with the Hornet it's a different story. Anyway, thanks for the tips and keep going this videos.
Hey man glad you found the videos helpful always happy to see they’re helping people.
Man I LOVE these videos! Good Stuff GS!
"were gonna FOX-3 to give him something to think about" LMFAO i loved this, i laughed wayy to hard at this, but was hilarious.
Amazing!! Love the video man, very helpful!!
Another EXCELLENT Growling Sidewinder video....
I just get in at this “World” and I can see myself doing free fly for so long before to think go out with something in my wings…lol. But I have to say; You guys are just the best! I try to learn everything I can and I hope my 60 years old don’t take down. Well!…let’s have fun and keep the nose straight ahead!!!thank you bro for so good job!
This video was awesome. Thank you!
I tried this, it works! Thank you!
Awesome video holy crap! Just getting into dcs. Thank you
Nicely explained, great vid!
I don’t even play but man I love fighter aircraft and dad was in air Force during Korea as MP guard at airbases and I enjoy watching the King of the sky, Thanks.
this is seriously helpful! thanks very much!
Great video thank you!
Very nice work. 👍🏼
Damn nice vid, should be great for people who are new to the sim, and definitely something to learn from
Very nive and fun vid. Please put more VR stuff, love it :)
With the detail in which you explain each of these fights you would think you are ex military, great job dude keep it up!
Yeah, now I know why I don't last more than 20 seconds in multi-player. My sessions all are like: Salute -> Cat Shot -> Woooh! Hooo! I'm finally airborne, I'm gonna kick some ass! Those mofos won't know what hit them ... High-way to-the danger-zooh damn I'm dead.
Beautiful explanation :)
This is crazy. I was on the virgin atlantic server just now wondering when growling was going to make this very video. I havent watched it yet but id imagine you want to be at 35k ft top speed and 6 aamrams
Love these BVR matchup videos
I love this type of video in Quarantine
Honestly, in the 18 against a superiour bandit just notch to until he's in your E-pole (roughly), use that Hornet nose authority to get that snapshot off and then either go cold, drop to the deck or back into an oposite direction notch. If you get the alt advantage, being M1.1 at around 40K feet will also deal with any low flying Tomcat or Eagle. If DCS actually modelled radar performance anywhere close to accurate on ED modules the F-16 wouldn't even be able to pick up a Hornet before the Hornet already shot. Good video!
Very good!
Very nice video.
Hey GS, you have by far the best DCS Channel on CZcams. I don't know how fun these specific topics are for you but it should pay off, you're gifted at explaining technique and strategy in all your videos bro!
thank you man I'm glad you enjoyed.
That was awsome. So thats the reason for the F35 and F22. To be ahead. Still i Wonder about the phoenix. We have seen a lot and learned to. And now tactics to avoid amrams. Thats heavy stuff👍 See you got 105t 🎉🎈
Very good lesson, this will keep more pilots on the air.
very funny
The opening intro reminds me of Falcon 3.0. Pilot management campaign, system of gaining experience. It was a great game
Just the right video for a Hornet noobie with less than 100 hours in DCS. Reading the comments, "go cold" = nose away from the bandit. I am enlightened by three new concepts. The MAR (Minimum Abort Range) is a new concept for me. The way you defend aggressively while you bleed bandit's energy with Fox 3 missile(s) is new. The way you switch to ACM (Air Combat Maneuvor) mode's WACQ (Wide Acquisition) or maybe the helmet bore sight mode in the final 5 nm fight without nose pointing at bandit is new.
Beautiful
Can you do a tutorial on Fox 1 (e.g. Mirage, Su-27) vs Fox 3 (AMRAAM) tactics?
F-15 squawked “code 2” flyable.
Good video
Awesome !
6:30 in the video was the craziest sight and sound I've seen here that was awesome
You can find more of these amazing shots on his other videos
I love that the eagle just flattened out when it got hit
Thank you very much for the constantly great videos! Could you please explain what exactly the “mar” means... thanx a lot!!
Awesome ty
Wow strategy involved is on a whole other level with these type planes. Thanks for the video
Glad you enjoyed man
Very interesting
Please also Do the Mig29S as well, you haven't done BVR on them since the New PFM plis!
russian missles are bad. r27er has decent range but it's semi active. r77 is active but no range
yeah i would also love to see how not to die in mig...
@@king-amir3401 well there is no r77-1 so that sucks.
@@noshit6285 tbh even that is really trash. Russia just doesn't have good bvr missiles. The only good ones are the amraam, pl12/sd10 and meteor
@Growling Sidewinder
Suggestion/Request: Can you make a video in which you fly a jet, doing WVR and BVR fight. And you talk about its strong points and weak points and against which jet and situations its better and in which or against which its not?
Would like your opinions and I think that will be great series. Will you please comment anything about it?
actually , you were sneller than him. He was at .97 mach, but you were lower, in warmer air. So by TAS you had 50 extra knots. To calculate: take the square root of the temperature in Kelvin (273+temp in C, so for 20C at sea level it's 293K. For every 1000 feet substract 2C. So from 20C at SL, you will have -40C and 233K at 30000ft ) and multiply this by 39. This is the local speed of sound.
Ex1: 10000 ft -> OAT 0C -> Sroot of 273K=16.5.... x39=>LSS (mach 1)=644 kts TAS.
Ex2: 35000ft -> OAT -70C-> Sroot of 203K=14.24.... x39=> LSS=555 kts TAS
So mach .95 @ ex1 = mach 1.10 @ ex2
lol, Nederlander en dislecties? (sneller in stead of faster)
@@itsokaytobeaselfhatingjew5971 snell is actually a very old english word: OE snel, ME snell. DE schnell. It is seldom used nowadays, being displaced by fast, which used to mean solid, itself replaced by a latin borrowing. You can still use it with its begginings meaning in "fastened". Snell is also used alot in the scots speechkind
@@tuningobd5371 Thank you for the linguistic lesson, i learned something.
You missed something in your calculations - the temp doesn't drop indefinitely. Within the troposphere it indeed drops 6.5 K per km (1.98 K per 1000 ft), but that stops at 216.65 K (-56.5 C) at which point the stratosphere starts. The temp is never less than -56.5 C so your second example is not valid and the actual sonic speed in this case would be ~574 KTAS. Also, the speed of sound for aerodynamic flight is never less than 574 KTAS, because ambient temps lower than 216.65 K are not possible below the mesosphere.
@@ASJC27 you are right, but not all the way. The tropopause for example at the equator can begin as high as 60000 ft. If you assume that at sea level there would be 40C, temperature at the tropopause would be -80C. Your example is for the ISA. (That's International Standard Atmosphere). The opposite can be true for the poles, where teh tropopause is as low as 23-25000ft. That means that if the OAT at sea level is -15C, it would stop decreasing at -48 to -50. Lookup some SIGMET maps and you'll find the tropopause in square boxes all over the map as a flight level. A note here: While the calculated end of the troposphere is predictable with the -2K/ 1000ft, DCS also uses this model, the real air can drop in temp with anywhere from between 1.8 to 3C/1000ft and also increase in temp in what is called an inversion layer.
Good breakdown. Seems the new AMRAAM changes are tough for the Hornet since it's the slowest of the AMRAAM lobbing fighters. How about the MiG-29 with the ER/ET and R-77? That seems like a huge disadvantage, can you do a video on how you survive in a MiG-29 or SU-27/J-11?
that would be really nice... i guess you have to use same tactics but fire some ET´s instead of amraams... maybe GS proove me wrong.
Forgive my ignorance, but can someone tell me what MAR stands for?
@@funkyschnitzel Thank you!
GS- “fly high or you’ll die”
Drewski- “and I took that personally”
Aight I got a question, How much chaff should I use?
ALL OF IT
Yes
I followed one of his vids on how much chaff I despense on each fox 3 engagement of 10 chaff per cycle. One second apart per each chaff.
In my experience chaff is almost useless against the AMRAAM. 99% of the time they will not go for chaff. The Russian R-27ER seems to love chaff more than the aircraft, but the US missiles are too smart in DCS. The take away from this video is you have to be really good at defending, but don't just defend. Keep throwing missiles at him to keep him on the back foot, but go cold and maneuver like a bat out of hell.
My observations are based on fighting AI and then carefully analyzing the fight in Tacview. When I fly the Su27 I get a lock and fire a R-27ER followed by an R-27ET using LA override. Then maneuver like crazy dropping altitude to maintain speed, but keep the enemy in the gimbal limits so you don't loose lock. The ET will lock onto one of three things, the ER, the enemy missile, or the enemy aircraft. If it locks onto the ER it will be led into the general area of the enemy, and then when the ER engine burns out it will switch to the enemy. 75% of my kills are with the ET, because the ER loves chaff. Also the enemy has no warning that an ET is after him. So after defeating the ER he will recommit and usually take the ET in the face.
Note in real life, I suspect the Russian missiles are not so dumb. Surely, they have either stolen our software or reverse engineered it. In DCS the Russian missiles are 1980's vintage while the US missiles are 21st century. As GS has said the BVR fight is extremely unfair to the Russian planes in DCS.
0 dont rely on chaff
The Hornet. Not the plane we want. But the plane we deserve.
I feel like I'm in Top Gun school with you teaching
Would be nice to have a similar video with the Mirage and how to defeat an F16 that has AMRAAMs
How did you know the MAR for the amraam in DCS?
This video was very helpful when I was still learning bvr with the hornet a few months ago. I just noticed something however. Was this video made before the F18 radar nerf I keep hearing about? I have never experienced getting a radar picture on targets beyond 40nm even with the proper scan and prf settings.
yes this video is loooong before those changes came into place.
I got a random question, will they bring out the F-4 Phantom? I mean it was a big part of history and I’d love to fly it.
1 year later and I'm still going to say... No
@@crimsonmageone7340 Yes they will
On the Tacview it looks like he got a missile off right before yours hit him, but then it just faded when the plane did.
It hit the ground I believe it had no track
I have found myself hitting the floor when diving in the f18 a few times.
My BVR tactics:
- Fire first AMRAAM
- have a finger fire
- explode
Do you add the SFX into the video like the effect of the 15 hitting the ground? It doesn't sound like that on my DCS I don't think.
@Growling Sidewinder, as a fun exercise, if you take a hornet with just 2 Aim120C and 2 Aim9x and belly Fuel tank and remove the wing pylons (There is such an option from a cold start for anyone that didn't know) suddenly (given you drop the fuel tank before entering the fight) you start to obtain "Viper like" performance thanks to the reduce drag. You will be able to get M1.6ish 45k shots.
As a matter of fact some weeks ago in your server i managed to score a double kill from 60-65nm away on a pair of flankers in close formation at angels 25ish who thought that shot was too long to be a serious threat.
The problem with that config is that you only have 2 slammers but you start to feel the hornet behaving like an air superiority fighter more on par with vipers and eagles.
Pylong don't have drag in game at the moment.
@@Golden5er They do since several months ago (For the F18).
Here you can see latest test from this year:
forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=279839
Interesting. Do you think I could use the same tactics if I came across a mountain lion while jogging?
Hi. Right before you splashed him he had fired another missile it looked like, what happened to that one?
The way I fight in the hornet is low and fast, making heavy usage of my data link and only using my radar when going in for the kill mostly staying in the mountain ranges. Might not be tho most efficient way of doing things but it sure is a fun one
Hey GS, what do you think about reviving the Fox 1 fights but with a Red v Blue? Would be an interesting matchup with the Russian jets having a more equal footing
I'm thinking of learning another plane, because F/A-18s are more or less the chum in multi-player
How do you calculate MAR in various situations?
What does it mean to "GO COLD"? What does "comitt" or Non comitted? Thanks as I am new to this and am needing some info! Thanks for posting and sharing! I am loving watching you engage and fight. You are a good pilot!
Going cold means turning away from bandit
Going Hot means turning into bandit
Can you do jf17 thunder vs f16 viper it will be interesting to watch
Question:Do you really *need* to wait until the missile activates or can it still get the target if you go cold a while sooner?
Mustang BR depends on the range, Fox3 missiles go pitbull at a certain range. If you’re firing within or very close to that range, the missile will go active as soon as you fire it.
The other response isn't really clear, so: you don't need to wait until pitbull to lose lock, the 120 will continue flying an intercept course and activate at a certain time, but it won't be able to adjust for maneuvers until it locks on; it'll keep flying where it had last calculated the intercept to be.
Dang shoulda kept reading before I posted but Thalia’s explanation makes sense if that’s how it works. The missile flys last known until active then maneuvers for kill all without guidance from onboard radar. Smarter everyday! Amazing
@@static_actual Thanks for this, that helps a lot. The first missile was fired just outside of max range, so it went "LOST" as soon as he fired, and he turned cold before the second pair of missiles went active, but all three guided per the TacView. Your explanation helps clarify why.
@@EricSeelig Sometime, a missile that is lost will reacquire the track if you stay in TWS; not sure why. But yeah, it'll keep flying to the last computed intercept.
Maybe I missed it, what is the MAR?
The painful thing is u need to spend 5 amraams to defeat the guy and thats gonna work if its one on one... If he had a wing man it will be painful
What does mar mean? Also love the videos
Most advanced Amraam priority should be the navy, even with that in order to cope with modern BVR adversaries it probably needs wolf pack tactics, AWACS, Growlers, F-35 & nearby shifts of few Raptors. seems F14's gap reopened, air to air navy UAV probably the only logical future.
Good kill good kill
as a newbie i would love to see your stick and throttle positions during maneuvering
How should you calculate the mar on the go is it just a rough formula or are there certain scenarios you should memorise and work from there? Btw awesome vid although hopefully I’ll be one one the f16s slinging missiles from the heavens
You have to memorize the MAR based on missile performance at different altitudes
@@GrowlingSidewinder ok thanks that shall be my challenge for this week XD
One question just before he died he fired another missile and that was prettyclose to you. Howcome you didnt die?
It hit the ground missile had no track u can see it in tacview
Can you please play against 2 players? I think it would be interesting to see the tactics when outnumbered.
the bigger problem is in a pvp rather than a duel, a f-16/14 they can just kite f18 and just never enter the 10nm range so the f-18 has little chance to catch up on them.
To even put them on the defensive I first have to get within the 30nm range which is a gauntlet since from 60nm out he’s already firing. The analogy I use for the hornet is it’s like a boxer with shorter reach, you gotta fight your way to the inside and then give em hell.
That’s a very good way of saying it.
@@GrowlingSidewinder feel free in your video to use that analogy lol I can feel like I contribute then haha
I think Hornet is a perfect machine for close range Dogfight because of its supermaneuverability.
How do you calculate the MAR?
Could you do a guns only dogfight with a A-10 Thunderbolt and the su-25 frogfoot
A-10s are only for air to ground missions.
@@Youeatbabies he’s fought them in air to air on here though.
@@lerenardsubtil4474 Ok
The video show 1st Hornet shot at 30miles, where Tomcat will start sending their Phoenix beyond 50. My intereset would be how to safely close in.
Can anybody tell me how to win BVR against a nato plane in a MiG 29? 2 seconds after I get even into the (you can shoot but it won’t hit range” and the amraam in tws mode is about 500 meters away from me. Very frustrating
Talking about the R-77 btw